Internet : Where 6 rings does not get you a top 20 ranking

[unbreakable]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(

[imnew09]

I stopped voting after Lebron got voted for number 11...

[Sarcastic]

http://fansofmediocrity.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/robert-horry.jpg

This guy should be top 40 at least then too, huh?

[DirtySanchez]

Totally agree Pippen should be up there.

[IGotACoolStory]

Tom Heinsohn should have been top 15.

[kennethgriffin]

i'm a big scottie fan... i even have his throw back jersey on my wall..

but no way should a guy make the top 20 if he was a second fiddle his whole life except for 1 season

all the other guys in the top 20 at most played less than half their career as 2nd man

i have him ranked as #25 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Bob Pettit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. Lebron James
18. Bob Cousy
19. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. John Havlicek
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. Scottie Pippen

[L.Kizzle]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(
John Havlicek say hi also, and he has 8 rings ...

[gtfomyface]

i'm a big scottie fan... i even have his throw back jersey on my wall..

but no way should a guy make the top 20 if he was a second fiddle his whole life except for 1 season

all the other guys in the top 20 at most played less than half their career as 2nd man

i have him ranked as #25 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Bob Pettit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. Lebron James
18. Bob Cousy
19. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. John Havlicek
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. Scottie Pippen

makes you wonder how far he could've gotten if he didn't stay with the bulls, and if jordan would've won as many championships

[plowking]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(

Wow... talk about overrated. There are so many players better than Scottie Pippen over the course of the history of the NBA. His legacy greatly depends on the fact he was chosen to a team that perfectly blended to his style and the fact he was able to form a cohesive partnership with the best player of all time.

[kennethgriffin]

http://fansofmediocrity.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/robert-horry.jpg

This guy should be top 40 at least then too, huh?


i believe in prestige when it comes to rings

rings as a 1st team all nba player are worth more than rings by a 2nd team all nba player

and 2nd team all nba rings are worth more than 3rd teamers

allstars are worth more than role players

etc...



horrys rings count in comparisons to other role players

[skaterbasist]

i'm a big scottie fan... i even have his throw back jersey on my wall..

but no way should a guy make the top 20 if he was a second fiddle his whole life except for 1 season

all the other guys in the top 20 at most played less than half their career as 2nd man

i have him ranked as #25 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Bob Pettit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. Lebron James
18. Bob Cousy
19. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. John Havlicek
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. Scottie Pippen

He wasn't Karl Malone's second fiddle, he was the GOAT's second fiddle. Someone like Magic Johnson would have been a second fiddle to Mike. So that reasoning is broken.

[kennethgriffin]

He wasn't Karl Malone's second fiddle, he was the GOAT's second fiddle. Someone like Magic Johnson would have been a second fiddle to Mike. So that reasoning is broken.


so? he should have pulled a kobe and tried to get his own team during his prime

he already got 3 rings. move on

i have no pitty for people who wanna take the easy way out and accept a second banana willingly when theyre good enough to be superstars or mvps on another team

guys like wade for example

threw away a possible top 10 all time career by chasing rings with lebron

now hes just a kickstand to lebrons legacy. no way wade ever wins a most valuable player award now




same for scottie... his best years were 94,95,96.... he almost won mvp in 94... if he told jordan to stay home i bet the bulls still win the title in 96 if rodman and company still join him


jordan took scotties possible greatness away and he did nothing to stop it from happening.

now hes sad about it and calling lebron better than mike like some jealous idiot

serves him right. i'm a big fan of pippen as a player. but hes small inside as a man

[pauk]

Hm.... Which player would you seriously replace here with Pippen?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Karl Malone
17. Charles Barkley
18. Bob Pettit
19. Elgin Baylor
20. David Robinson, John Havlicek, Kevin Garnett, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, Dirk Nowitzki, George Mikan, Rick Barry.......

[skaterbasist]

so? he should have pulled a kobe and tried to get his own team during his prime

he already got 3 rings. move on

So you're saying he should have left the Bulls because the GOAT happened to be there? WTF?

Ever heard of the line "If it ain't broke don't fix it?"

He started his career with the Bulls. It's not like he was ring chasing like some of the others you mentioned. :facepalm

[no pun intended]

I stopped voting after Lebron got voted for number 11...
Same.

[kennethgriffin]

Hm.... Which player would you seriously replace here with Pippen?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Karl Malone
17. Charles Barkley
18. Bob Pettit
19. Elgin Baylor
20. David Robinson, John Havlicek, Kevin Garnett, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, Dirk Nowitzki, George Mikan, Rick Barry.......


wow.. pauk putting kobe in his top 10


i remember arguing with this guy like half a year ago when he was putting kobe 15th all time with the same accomplishments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNE7Il3fs9M#t=0m40s

[HardwoodLegend]

guys like wade for example

threw away a possible top 10 all time career by chasing rings with lebron

now hes just a kickstand to lebrons legacy. no way wade ever wins a most valuable player award now

Wade probably suspected his body would be breaking down soon anyway.

Regardless of the fact that he joined forces with LeBron, his chances at an MVP award were growing slimmer by the year.

[BMOGEFan]

Hm.... Which player would you seriously replace here with Pippen?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Karl Malone
17. Charles Barkley
18. Bob Pettit
19. Elgin Baylor
20. David Robinson, John Havlicek, Kevin Garnett, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, Dirk Nowitzki, George Mikan, Rick Barry.......

How the hell is lebron james 11?

[pauk]

wow.. pauk putting kobe in his top 10


i remember arguing with this guy like half a year ago when he was putting kobe 15th all time with the same accomplishments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNE7Il3fs9M#t=0m40s

You must confuse me with someone else, i always had Kobe in the top 10 or top 11 the worst (Hakeem debate, but whatever i give Kobe the edge)...

[97 bulls]

You have to know basketball to rank Pippen fairly. Pippen is a top 20 player. These people are ranking based on accomplishments. Theyre basing their rank on who their favorite players are.

Lets take Charles Barkley. Theres no way his one MVP trumps Pippens role on six championships.

They both have multiple all nba awards andd allstar berths. But Pippen kills him on all defense awards.

[pauk]

How the hell is lebron james 11?

What!? Because he accomplished more... :confusedshrug:

Who beneath him do you want me to compare him and his accomplishments to.... gimme just one player or more if you wish...

[Poetry]

I saw Pip's entire career as a Bull and a great deal of his post-Bulls career.

The guy is not top 20. Taking into account individual play and his team accomplishments, he's top 30, but not top 20.

I don't know when it happened, but at some point in recent years, the young bloods on the internet started pushing him into the top twenty.

From what i gather, especially when i was strictly lurking in the background on this site, i noticed that certain people have an agenda to make Scottie Pippen = Kobe = Shaq.

In order to say, Michael Jordan played with someone of Shaq/or Kobe's caliber.

But anyone who saw Pip's career knows he isn't on that level.

As much as i like Pip, I've seen too many super elite players come and go to push Pip into the top 20.

I'm not saying he's Jamal Mashburn or Antoine Walker, but Pip's a tier below contemporaries like Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins, David Robinson and the list goes on, and the list continues with players from other eras.

[97 bulls]

I saw Pip's entire career as a Bull and a great deal of his post-Bulls career.

The guy is not top 20. Taking into account individual play and his team accomplishments, he's top 30, but not top 20.

I don't know when it happened, but at some point in recent years, the young bloods on the internet started pushing him into the top twenty.

From what i gather, especially when i was strictly lurking in the background on this site, i noticed that certain people have an agenda to make Scottie Pippen = Kobe = Shaq.

In order to say, Michael Jordan played with someone of Shaq/or Kobe's caliber.

But anyone who saw Pip's career knows he isn't on that level.

As much as i like Pip, I've seen too many super elite players come and go to push Pip into the top 20.

I'm not saying he's Jamal Mashburn or Antoine Walker, but Pip's a tier below contemporaries like Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins, David Robinson and the list goes on, and the list continues with players from other eras.
Spoken like a true Jordan fan. Pathetic. Why is should Wilkins be ranked higher than Pippen?

[eliteballer]

If Pippen was that good the Bulls wouldnt have been barely over .500 in 95 before Jordan returned.

[RazorBaLade]

if he didnt choke against lakers he could be top 20

only men go into t20 not sidekicks and babies

[97 bulls]

If Pippen was that good the Bulls wouldnt have been barely over .500 in 95 before Jordan returned.
Show me a player that faired better in a similar situation.

[eliteballer]

No, you show me a top 20 player in his Prime that didnt.

:coleman:

[fpliii]

he's in my top 25

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
John Havlicek
LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Moses Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
David Robinson
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Isiah Thomas
Dwyane Wade
Jerry West

probably closer to 15 than 25

[NewYorkNoPicks]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(

Plenty of players could have filled his role, and done it better. For example Pip isnt the calibur player Patrick Ewing is and had MJ had Pat on the team his life would have been much easier.Scottie Pippen is no better than Brandon Roy individually.

[Ne 1]

Plenty of players could have filled his role, and done it better. For example Pip isnt the calibur player Patrick Ewing is and had MJ had Pat on the team his life would have been much easier.Scottie Pippen is no better than Brandon Roy individually.


https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/6/3/Y3InzXXQgEKM-SEWuJ2dtQ2.jpg

[fpliii]

Plenty of players could have filled his role, and done it better. For example Pip isnt the calibur player Patrick Ewing is and had MJ had Pat on the team his life would have been much easier.Scottie Pippen is no better than Brandon Roy individually.

Ewing? hmmmmm

[Nevaeh]

Don't worry OP. In another month Pip will be comfortably at number 3, right behind Kobe at number 2, with Lebron "mysteriously" slipping into Pip's current spot.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

[Poetry]

Spoken like a true Jordan fan. Pathetic. Why is should Wilkins be ranked higher than Pippen?

On an individual basis, i have Dominique over Pip; team accomplishments change the nature of the argument, but Pip wasn't on Dominique's level as an individual talent.

Pip may be one of the most important pieces that a team has ever had, but his presence isn't nearly as indispensable as the presence of a player like Nique.

Dominique gets overlooked because his teams didn't accomplish anything, but those teams wouldn't have been competitive at all without him.

I view it as simple as picking players on a court. I'll take Nique over Pip, simple as that.

[97 bulls]

No, you show me a top 20 player in his Prime that didnt.

:coleman:
You made the claim. Back it up.

[NewYorkNoPicks]

Ewing? hmmmmm

Yeah MJ with a hall of fame big man wouldve been amazing. I was thinking about it in the car today after remembering the rumor that Mike would sign a 1 year deal in NY supposedy. Not sure if this was during the first comeback or following the 98 season

[97 bulls]

Ewing? hmmmmm
You know. Whenever someone says Pippen was easily replaced, they always replace him with a big. A great big at that. Makes one wonder.

[fpliii]

Yeah MJ with a hall of fame big man wouldve been amazing. I was thinking about it in the car today after remembering the rumor that Mike would sign a 1 year deal in NY supposedy

I personally have Pip ahead as an individual player, but MJ and Ewing would have been incredible to watch. They had some synergy playing on the same team (Olympics + All-Star Games) so it definitely would've been interesting to watch.

To be honest, if Sampson never went down in the mid-80s Jordan probably would've needed an elite big to combat that sort of frontcourt, so there's a possibility it could've potentially happened (in NY or Chicago).

[Ne 1]

Spoken like a true Jordan fan. Pathetic. Why is should Wilkins be ranked higher than Pippen?

He shouldn't.

Nique had flashy dunks and could certainly put points on the board, but he was a ball stopper. He wasn't a good passer and was somewhat selfish. Scottie was a better all-around player BY FAR.

And Pippen was an ultimate defender at that... He could lock down four positions, was a great on/off ball defender, helpside defender and could absolutely wreck a team while playing the roamer role on defense.

[NewYorkNoPicks]

I personally have Pip ahead as an individual player, but MJ and Ewing would have been incredible to watch. They had some synergy playing on the same team (Olympics + All-Star Games) so it definitely would've been interesting to watch.

To be honest, if Sampson never went down in the mid-80s Jordan probably would've needed an elite big to combat that sort of front
court, so there's a possibility it could've potentially happened (in NY or Chicago).

Yeah but youre only looking at it from the perspective of a do it all SF vs a bang down low big man, a SF is supposed to have more overall "skills" than a center, but in that respect you could say Pip is better than Shaq... But the real test is thinking about each player as an individual cornerstone; Pip alone wouldnt get you further as a #1 than Ewing would...we all know that, weve witnessed it

[fpliii]

You know. Whenever someone says Pippen was easily replaced, they always replace him with a big. A great big at that. Makes one wonder.

Pretty much. In an alternate universe in which Jordan doesn't exist and the Bulls build primarily around Scottie, whose career do you think his would hypothetically most closely resemble? How much team success do you think he would've had, and which pieces would be added to the team over the course of his tenure?


Yeah but youre only looking at it from the perspective of a do it all SF vs a bang down low big man, a SF is supposed to have more overall "skills" than a center, but in that respect you could say Pip is better than Shaq... But the real test is thinking about each player as an individual cornerstone; Pip alone wouldnt get you further as a #1 than Ewing would...we all know that, weve witnessed it

I certainly can't disprove that, but <2 seasons is hardly a sizable sample for me. Things would have played out much differently I'm sure (I'm interested in your response to the scenario I just presented to 97 Bull as well).

[Poetry]

Scottie Pippen is no better than Brandon Roy individually.

Let's not go crazy either.

[noosaman]

i'm a big scottie fan... i even have his throw back jersey on my wall..

but no way should a guy make the top 20 if he was a second fiddle his whole life except for 1 season

all the other guys in the top 20 at most played less than half their career as 2nd man

i have him ranked as #25 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Bob Pettit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. Lebron James
18. Bob Cousy
19. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. John Havlicek
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. Scottie Pippen


Get the hell out of here

[Poetry]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Bob Pettit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. Lebron James
18. Bob Cousy
19. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. John Havlicek
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. Scottie Pippen

Don't agree with the order of your list, but the differences are negligible.

Just curious, what range do you have Stockton in?

[Overdrive]

Yeah MJ with a hall of fame big man wouldve been amazing. I was thinking about it in the car today after remembering the rumor that Mike would sign a 1 year deal in NY supposedy. Not sure if this was during the first comeback or following the 98 season

That was during the '98 lockout. Jordan was very dissatisfied with the Bulls management.

Pippen was a great player, but he was never a leader and that's why many players who led their teams to championships even it's only single one get viewed higher than him. People like leaders, because people are sheep.

Still, if you interchange Jordan with Ewing Pippen might possibly win. He was such a great complimentary player that imo you could pair him with any leader(in his prime) and they'd win.



I view it as simple as picking players on a court. I'll take Nique over Pip, simple as that.

I would not pick Nique over Pippen, I would take a player that fits my style better and Nique would take away lot of my game. I think it would be the same for Nique and any guy that needs the ball alot.

I don't even know if Nique wins a 1v1 vs Pippen.

[Papaya Petee]

1.) Jordan
2.) Kareem
3.) Wilt
4.) Russell
5.) Bird
6.) Magic
7.) Shaq
8.) Kobe
9.) Duncan
10.) Hakeem
11.) West
12.) Moses
13.) Oscar
14.) LeBron
15.) D-Rob
16.) Ewing
17.) Barkley
18.) Malone
19.) Dr. J
20.) Baylor
21.) KG
22.) Pettit
23.) Wade
24.) Dirk
25.) Isiah

All guys better then Pippen individually. Plus a few more guys like Ewing, Clyde, etc. etc.

[Psileas]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(

So, where should Sam Jones (who, unlike Pippen, did make game winners) and his 10 rings rank? Havlicek (who also made game-winners and was his team's MVP in multiple Finals) and his 8 rings?

[INDI]

You have to know basketball to rank Pippen fairly. Pippen is a top 20 player. These people are ranking based on accomplishments. Theyre basing their rank on who their favorite players are.

Lets take Charles Barkley. Theres no way his one MVP trumps Pippens role on six championships.

They both have multiple all nba awards andd allstar berths. But Pippen kills him on all defense awards.

Pippen kills magic Johnson, Shaq, Oscar on defense but you don't think he's better than them do you?


A million out of a million people would pick Barkley over Pippen if they was starting a team. The bulls would've won 8-9 rings had Barkley played with Jordan

[LeBird]

6. Kobe Bryant


:lol

[KOBE143]

Scottie Pippen was the most underrated player of all time that will always overshadowed by the most overrated player of all time..

It's quite sad that Mike always get credited for all those 6 championships and people forgot about Pippen who was the main reason why the Bulls won those 6 championship.. If not for Scottie, the Bulls will still have no championship until this day..

[Calabis]

:roll: :roll:

LMAO at Pippen Top 15 all time

anywhere between 24-35 is good enough

[ILLsmak]

People care too much about scoring.

It seems like they also have this idea of potential or what, in some circumstance, a player COULD do. They don't think Pip could do much in that magical circumstance. Could he drop 60? I doubt it. People are obsessed with stats, and the funny thing is Pip got stats.

Think of all the hype Grant Hill and Penny got before they got injured. Pip was like them except he didn't get injured or fall off. He did that shit his whole career.

Is he top 20? I don't know. But putting David Robinson over Pip is luls to me.


-Smak

[Calabis]

People care too much about scoring.

It seems like they also have this idea of potential or what, in some circumstance, a player COULD do. They don't think Pip could do much in that magical circumstance. Could he drop 60? I doubt it. People are obsessed with stats, and the funny thing is Pip got stats.

Think of all the hype Grant Hill and Penny got before they got injured. Pip was like them except he didn't get injured or fall off. He did that shit his whole career.

Is he top 20? I don't know. But putting David Robinson over Pip is luls to me.


-Smak

Except pre-injured Grant Hill's offensive package was better...what is really laughable is people keep talking about Pippen's defense like he was holding people to 5 PPG....no he wasn't. The object of the game is to score, so players like Lebron, Jordan plus many others listed who still play great defense while also dominating on offense, are better than Pippen....let's quit acting like Pippen was some dominant offensive force with the best defense we have ever seen :oldlol:

This month on ISH, I have learned that Pippen had just as much impact as Jordan, his skill set/leadership rivaled Bird/Magic, except he played defense and therefore was better....all this ability yet we are talking about a guy with a career avg of 16 ppg/6 reb/5ast (sad numbers from this mythical great all around talent Pippen had)

Real Talk: Pippen great second option, great perimeter defender...that's it folks

[Calabis]

Scottie Pippen was the most underrated player of all time that will always overshadowed by the most overrated player of all time..

It's quite sad that Mike always get credited for all those 6 championships and people forgot about Pippen who was the main reason why the Bulls won those 6 championship.. If not for Scottie, the Bulls will still have no championship until this day..

:facepalm

Does this dude post anything logical or rational?

[Remix]

:facepalm

Does this dude post anything logical or rational?
You must have missed 94 and 95 without Jordan. Idiot.

Pippen = GOAT

[OldSchoolBBall]

People care too much about scoring.

It seems like they also have this idea of potential or what, in some circumstance, a player COULD do. They don't think Pip could do much in that magical circumstance. Could he drop 60? I doubt it. People are obsessed with stats, and the funny thing is Pip got stats.

Think of all the hype Grant Hill and Penny got before they got injured. Pip was like them except he didn't get injured or fall off. He did that shit his whole career.

Is he top 20? I don't know. But putting David Robinson over Pip is luls to me.


-Smak

DRob is on a completely different level than Pippen. Grab a clue. :oldlol:

[Mach_3]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(


Co-alpha dog?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-F7jkdY1jJR8/T6lfZ4D9tbI/AAAAAAAABHo/pHfMZD7V8Gg/s170/nicholas-cage-laughing.gif

[guy]

People care too much about scoring.

It seems like they also have this idea of potential or what, in some circumstance, a player COULD do. They don't think Pip could do much in that magical circumstance. Could he drop 60? I doubt it. People are obsessed with stats, and the funny thing is Pip got stats.

Think of all the hype Grant Hill and Penny got before they got injured. Pip was like them except he didn't get injured or fall off. He did that shit his whole career.

Is he top 20? I don't know. But putting David Robinson over Pip is luls to me.


-Smak

Actually, it seems like alot of people today try to downplay scoring as much as possible.

[97 bulls]

Actually, it seems like alot of people today try to downplay scoring as much as possible.
No ones trying to downplay scoring. What I have seen people do is try to show the importance great defense has and how it can change a game.

If anything. People try to diminish the role defense plays in a game. By saying such nonsense as "the object of the game is to OUTSCORE" youre opponents. The object of the game is to win. Some try to win with offense some try to win with defense,

[Duncan21formvp]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(
John Havlicek has 8 rings and a finals mvp.
Sam Jones has 10 rings and was a 5x allstar

Neither are considered top 20 all time, so why should Pippen be?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

DRob is on a completely different level than Pippen. Grab a clue. :oldlol:

David Robinson had a better peak (at his very best, D-Rob's impact was a tier or two above Pip's), but are you really suggesting he had the better career? lol

[Sarcastic]

David Robinson had a better peak (at his very best, D-Rob's impact was a tier or two above Pip's), but are you really suggesting he had the better career? lol

David Robinson easily had a better career than Pippen. Just going by All NBA 1st team selections, he has 4 compared to Pippen's 3.

[HEAT111]

Derek Fisher too....:lol

[Ne 1]

okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha

Well he may not have had a reputation for hitting game winners, but whenever Jordan was off, Pippen was there to step up, especially in clutch situations during the playoffs when Jordan wasn't able to get the job done, here are some examples:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyufleA6UlA#t=3m06s

Jordan scores 1 point in the 4th qtr in this game. Pippen hit three straight 3 pointers to get them back in the game in the first place, plays great defense on Atlanta when they were trying to take the lead and then hit the dagger 3 in the end over Mutombo. Huge game because the Bulls actually lost Game 2 of this series and could have easily been down 0-2.

The game before the one above against the Bullets in Game 3 Pippen hit a huge 3 to cut the lead and on the final play Jordan lost the ball going up for the shot. Pippen gets the ball and takes it in for the game winning dunk smacking his back hard on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Df_BHT0AP8#t=7m17s

Also, the countless big shots he hit in the NY series in the '93 ECF when Jordan couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in this series. Good thing he had Pippen to close the Knicks out when he was busy going 8-25 shooting. Listen to Marv Albert's and Fratello's commentary. They know what the hell they're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM


I'll also mention Pippen leading the Bulls back from the 15 point deficit (and hitting big shots down the stretch against the Blazers in Game 6 of the '92 Finals, closing out the Cavs in Game 6 of the '92 ECF, the big shots down the stretch against the Pacers in Game 7 of the '98 ECF, closing out the Cavs in Game 5 of his rookie season in '88, Game 5 of the '91 Finals he took over in the 3rd and 4th quarter of that close out game in which the Lakers were winning he finished with 31/13/7/5 steals etc. You'll never see stuff like this though because the NBA was never on the Pippen bandwagon. The critics and media would rather concentrate on Pippen's faults to boost Jordan. Real fans know whenever #23 was off #33 was there to step in.

[JMT]

Pippen kills magic Johnson, Shaq, Oscar on defense but you don't think he's better than them do you?


A million out of a million people would pick Barkley over Pippen if they was starting a team. The bulls would've won 8-9 rings had Barkley played with Jordan

And all three kill Pippen on offense.

As for the rest, :facepalm

[JMT]

Well he may not have had a reputation for hitting game winners, but whenever Jordan was off, Pippen was there to step up, especially in clutch situations during the playoffs when Jordan wasn't able to get the job done, here are some examples:


.

And in his opportunity to lead a team as the alpha dog, he walked off the floor rather than have someone else take the shot.

[Ne 1]

And in his opportunity to lead a team as the alpha dog, he walked off the floor rather than have someone else take the shot.

I think Phil wanted him on the floor as a decoy. But Scottie wanted the opportunity to hit the game winning shot. If you remember, he spearheaded that comeback and had a tremendous game. He deserved the opportunity. Funny how people say be shied away from the clutch shots and big moments. But then constantly bring up that play.

[JMT]

I think Phil wanted him on the floor as a decoy. But Scottie wanted the opportunity to hit the game winning shot. If you remember, he spearheaded that comeback and had a tremendous game. He deserved the opportunity. Funny how people say be shied away from the clutch shots and big moments. But then constantly bring up that play.

I've never said he shied away from big shots. But that's a flat out sh!tty teammate that walks off the floor. Deserved the shot? I guess Jordan could argue that he deserved Paxson or Kerr's shots. You play as a team with a coach who is paid handsomeley to make those decisions.

And lets keep in mind that, given the chance to win/shine outside of Jordan's limelight, he didn't fare very well.

[97 bulls]

John Havlicek has 8 rings and a finals mvp.
Sam Jones has 10 rings and was a 5x allstar

Neither are considered top 20 all time, so why should Pippen be?
Hondo did spend about half his career in the 70s. Where the ABA took a good portion of the NBAs players. If Julius Erving andd a few other player that played his position dont go to the ABA, he doesnt get as many 1st team all nbas. And on some of those Celtics teams, Hondo wasnt even their second best player. Cousey was I believe.

The same holds true for Sam Jones.

Which brings me to another point. Wheres Bob Cousey and George Mikan on that List? Cousy was Magic before Magiic came into the league. Mikan was the most dominat big man of the 50s.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The game before the one above against the Bullets in Game 3 Pippen hit a huge 3 to cut the lead and on the final play Jordan lost the ball going up for the shot. Pippen gets the ball and takes it in for the game winning dunk smacking his back hard on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Df_BHT0AP8#t=7m17s


I like how you conveniently omit that Jordan scored 12 points in the final 4:00 to bring the Bulls back from a 9-point deficit to even have a chance to win it on that final possession. :oldlol:

[Ne 1]

I've never said he shied away from big shots. But that's a flat out sh!tty teammate that walks off the floor.


The Kukoc thing was a blunder, but to say he was shitty teammate? :facepalm


Scottie is one of the best teammates I've ever had. Everyone loves him. He's so unselfish the way he plays and plays so hard. He knows where you'll be and where you want the ball for a shot. And he'll consciously try to get you shots. He'll be aware when you're struggling in a game, or when you've gone awhile without a shot. He would run by and say, "I know you haven't gotten a shot. Don't worry. Next time, I'll get you one." He cares about everyone like no star I've ever played with.- Steve Kerr


Scottie is one of the best teammates I've ever had. Everyone loves him. He's so unselfish the way he plays and plays so hard. He knows where you'll be and where you want the ball for a shot. And he'll consciously try to get you shots. He'll be aware when you're struggling in a game, or when you've gone awhile without a shot. He would run by and say, "I know you haven't gotten a shot. Don't worry. Next time, I'll get you one." He cares about everyone like no star I've ever played with.- Steve Kerr




Scottie was not only a great player, but a great teammate as well,” said Paxson. “He was unselfish on the floor and encouraged his teammates to be aggressive and positive out there. Scottie was the type of guy that if you missed four or five shots, he wouldn't hesitate to give you the ball when you were open again. He did it because not only was it the right basketball play, but to show you his confidence in your ability.

- John Paxson




He was the most popular teammate we had. You could laugh with him and joke and he wasn't the kind of guy who got mad. He was a fun teammate, fun to be around and always cared about everyone. If you had a problem, you could always talk it out with him. And he loved the game and the team. He was unselfish, but unselfish to a fault. We knew when he had the ball he was going to make a play and score or find the open guy.

- Horace Grant

He was very helpful and never derogatory. I was a new guy. I wasn’t even supposed to be on the team. But he was willing to help me out in practice when we were learning plays or working on the best way to cover a guy. He was able to talk to me without giving the impression like I was below him. He really wanted me to succeed and do well because that made him better.


Scottie made everyone better because he was unselfish. He’d move the ball to the right spot. He had such a great basketball mind and really understood what was happening on the floor. He was always willing to help out his teammates and make them better. Here you got a guy who was a phenomenal basketball player, could kick on the court - anyone's butt, and he's sacrificing his game for the betterment of the team. So how could I go out there and say, hey, I want more shots? You can't. You have to fall in line. It really makes everyone understand what the ultimate goal is. To win.

- Bill Wennington


It gave us a chance to see Scottie in a different light—not as the second fiddle guy, but the head guy. I thought he was outstanding. I used to go home and watch the games when they’d come on at 2 in the morning. He was just unbelievable. I never viewed Scottie as a guy who needed to score hoops to feel good about himself. That wasn’t his motivation. He was always about wins and losses.

Scottie was the anchorman. He was the Jack of all trades and did everything for us—he scored, rebounded the ball, made plays, and had assists to Steve and those guys to make sure they felt like they belonged. Defensively, he guarded on the perimeter and the interior. He did everything imaginable, which made everyone else’s job kind of easy.

- Pete Myers


His greatest strength was his knowledge of how things worked on the defensive end of the floor. Scottie was the voice of our team—figuratively and literally, as he did a lot of the talking and kept our team on the same page. When he wasn’t at the top of the key harassing a guard as a special assignment, he was on the backside of our defense talking his teammates through different situations, whether it was a double team, trap or some other important aspect. Because of that, he was very vital to the run that we made.

- Phil Jackson



He was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths. Everybody says Michael was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but a leadership of patting on the back, of support.

- Phil Jackson


I know he makes me a better player. Unfortunately, it may take awhile, after we both retire, for people to realize just how good Scottie Pippen really was.

- Michael Jordan



Sure he had his ups and downs in the clutch department just like every other player, but why ignore the other end of the spectrum?


And lets keep in mind that, given the chance to win/shine outside of Jordan's limelight, he didn't fare very well.

Wow.

[97 bulls]

I've never said he shied away from big shots. But that's a flat out sh!tty teammate that walks off the floor. Deserved the shot? I guess Jordan could argue that he deserved Paxson or Kerr's shots. You play as a team with a coach who is paid handsomeley to make those decisions.

And lets keep in mind that, given the chance to win/shine outside of Jordan's limelight, he didn't fare very well.
All players have made bad decisions during their career. Dont be a fool.

Pippen wanted that shot because all he had ever heard up to that point is he couldnt hit the Big Shot. He deserved that chance. Was he wrong for sitting out? Absolutely.

As far as how he faired when Jordan left, show me a player that did better in a similar situation.

[97 bulls]

I like how you conveniently omit that Jordan scored 12 points in the final 4:00 to bring the Bulls back from a 9-point deficit to even have a chance to win it on that final possession. :oldlol:
No ones arguing Jordans abilities.

[AlphaWolf24]

Most people who say Pippen "isn't a top 20 alltime player"...never watched him play / moronic Jordan stans..

- if you watched Pippen in the 90's...he was definitley a top 2 - 5 player in the league from 91 - 98' ( especially if you undertsand basketball/ defense and allaround play)

- many times while watching the Bull's play the TV analysts would echo this by saying ...The Bull's have the best allaround player in the NBA...and the 2nd best allaround player in the NBA...Jordan and Pippen could do everything.

- Jordan dominated the 4th quarters and was a much better clutch player.....this took away Pippens importance to many fans....but if you understand basketball and watched Pippen play....

it didn't take that much away from him...when MJ left to play basketball ..Pippen showed everyone how great he was.....he dominated!

[97 bulls]

Well he may not have had a reputation for hitting game winners, but whenever Jordan was off, Pippen was there to step up, especially in clutch situations during the playoffs when Jordan wasn't able to get the job done, here are some examples:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyufleA6UlA#t=3m06s

Jordan scores 1 point in the 4th qtr in this game. Pippen hit three straight 3 pointers to get them back in the game in the first place, plays great defense on Atlanta when they were trying to take the lead and then hit the dagger 3 in the end over Mutombo. Huge game because the Bulls actually lost Game 2 of this series and could have easily been down 0-2.

The game before the one above against the Bullets in Game 3 Pippen hit a huge 3 to cut the lead and on the final play Jordan lost the ball going up for the shot. Pippen gets the ball and takes it in for the game winning dunk smacking his back hard on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Df_BHT0AP8#t=7m17s

Also, the countless big shots he hit in the NY series in the '93 ECF when Jordan couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in this series. Good thing he had Pippen to close the Knicks out when he was busy going 8-25 shooting. Listen to Marv Albert's and Fratello's commentary. They know what the hell they're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM


I'll also mention Pippen leading the Bulls back from the 15 point deficit (and hitting big shots down the stretch against the Blazers in Game 6 of the '92 Finals, closing out the Cavs in Game 6 of the '92 ECF, the big shots down the stretch against the Pacers in Game 7 of the '98 ECF, closing out the Cavs in Game 5 of his rookie season in '88, Game 5 of the '91 Finals he took over in the 3rd and 4th quarter of that close out game in which the Lakers were winning he finished with 31/13/7/5 steals etc. You'll never see stuff like this though because the NBA was never on the Pippen bandwagon. The critics and media would rather concentrate on Pippen's faults to boost Jordan. Real fans know whenever #23 was off #33 was there to step in.
Great post bro.

And this was just his offensive exploits in clutch situations. What about his defense?

The clutch blocks on Charles Smith.

Shutting down Magic Johnson in the NBA finals.

Or his defense on Dominque Wilkins in 93. The leads second best scorer behind Jordan.

His defense on Penny Hardaway in 96.

Or his defense on Mark Jackson in 98. Scottie Pippen was a beast.


And compare what he did when Jordan left to other number two guys when their stars abruptly left the game or retired. James Worthy stunk wiithout Magic. The same holds true for Kevin Mchale. Look at Mchale FG% in the playoffs. Routinely high 50s. The one year Bird leaves, it drops down to 48%. Bird returns, his percentage shoots back up in the high 50s again.

[JMT]

All players have made bad decisions during their career. Dont be a fool.

Pippen wanted that shot because all he had ever heard up to that point is he couldnt hit the Big Shot. He deserved that chance. Was he wrong for sitting out? Absolutely.

As far as how he faired when Jordan left, show me a player that did better in a similar situation.

Really? Name the others who refused to go back on the floor that you want to defend.

It was a colossally bad decision and, like it or not, it left a terrible taste in many people's mouths.

As for how others did "in similar situations", those others aren't being touted as a Top 20 all time player.

[JMT]

The Kukoc thing was a blunder, but to say he was shitty teammate? :facepalm



I said "To me, that's a sh!tty teammate" and I'll stand by that. If I was on a team with a guy who threw a childish tantrum and refused to play in the biggest moment, I'd consider him a sh!tty teammate.

I can't speak for those other guys and their experiences with him.

[Ne 1]

- if you watched Pippen in the 90's...he was definitley a top 2 - 5 player in the league from 91 - 98' ( especially if you undertsand basketball/ defense and allaround play)


He was easily a top 10 player every season from '91-'98.

Top 5? '92 '94, '95, '96, '97

He also had a case for the top player in the league early in the '96 season.

''They are saying that this is an MVP season for you.''

''This guy gives them all the elements on the court that are unattainable anywhere else, he's got that long wingspan, plays defense, makes 3's, make great passes, gets clutch rebounds, goes up and down the floor...gracefully.''

''Is he as good as his teammate?''

''Well as a matter of fact technically he is right now, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things in a package that is unsurpassed in the NBA today but I don't think he's gonna get to take the last shot with Michael on his team.''

The Pippen for MVP campaign was huge in the first couple of months of that season. At a time Pippen was coming off one of the best statistical months of his career (26/7/6 on 55%), won player of the month and it's right after Pippen had proved himself as being capable of leading a team without MJ (lot of people used to think Pippen was overrated during first three peat and he silenced all of those critics in '94).

Read any number of articles at the time, watch a game, listen to the interviews, and you will find a ton of people who were saying Pippen was the MVP of the Bulls. Even MJ was supporting the whole Pippen MVP thing at the time too, went as far as to call the Bulls "Pippen's team".

[Ne 1]

I was on a team with a guy who threw a childish tantrum and refused to play in the biggest moment, I'd consider him a sh!tty teammate.


Your boy Jordan refused to play basketball at all without Scottie. He threatened to retire '97 if Jerry Krause traded away Pippen.

[Calabis]

Pippen career: 16.1 ppg, 6.4 reb, 5.2 ast, 2 stls, 0.8 blks, 47%
his ISH touted 91-98 run(age 25-32): 19.9 ppg, 7.2 rebs, 5.9 ast

Drexler career: 20.4 ppg, 6.1 reb, 5.4 ast, 2 stls, 0.7 blks, 47%
age 25-32 run: 23.1 ppg, 6.7 rebs, 6.9 ast

So Drexler easily matches his all around career statistical which usually tell you what a guy is doing in the game as far as those areas

Pippen is the better defender, but Drexler was no slouch on defense, he was actually a pretty good defender

Drexler inherited way more responsibility than Pip and didn't play with another stud until well past his prime,.... even in those years statistically put up Pippen numbers

Sure stats don't tell the whole story, but they sure tell a whole ton of it

Pippen put up one year without MJ 22/8/5 49%, people act like this was some monster breakout season :oldlol: With MJ he put up 21/7/7 50%...where is this massive improvement that Alpha and the other fan boys are talking about??? Acting like Pip was a 15/4/4 guy and then MJ left and he became the greatest all around player ever....22/8/5:confusedshrug:

Pippen elite defender, offense not elite, great #2 option to a scorer or ball dominant susperstar, no way in hell is he a top 20 player of all time

Pippen Top 20:roll: what a joke

Guess Drexler is Top 15 then

[krazymofo]

as much as I worship lebron, I knew when he was put @ #11 on the list, we were getting trolled.

[AlphaWolf24]

Pippen career: 16.1 ppg, 6.4 reb, 5.2 ast, 2 stls, 0.8 blks, 47%
his ISH touted 91-98 run(age 25-32): 19.9 ppg, 7.2 rebs, 5.9 ast

Drexler career: 20.4 ppg, 6.1 reb, 5.4 ast, 2 stls, 0.7 blks, 47%
age 25-32 run: 23.1 ppg, 6.7 rebs, 6.9 ast

So Drexler easily matches his all around career statistical which usually tell you what a guy is doing in the game as far as those areas

Pippen is the better defender, but Drexler was no slouch on defense, he was actually a pretty good defender

Drexler inherited way more responsibility than Pip and didn't play with another stud until well past his prime,.... even in those years statistically put up Pippen numbers

Sure stats don't tell the whole story, but they sure tell a whole ton of it

Pippen put up one year without MJ 22/8/5 49%, people act like this was some monster breakout season :oldlol: With MJ he put up 21/7/7 50%...where is this massive improvement that Alpha and the other fan boys are talking about??? Acting like Pip was a 15/4/4 guy and then MJ left and he became the greatest all around player ever....22/8/5:confusedshrug:

Pippen elite defender, offense not elite, great #2 option to a scorer or ball dominant susperstar, no way in hell is he a top 20 player of all time

Pippen Top 20:roll: what a joke

Guess Drexler is Top 15 then


OMG!!! ...MARGINAL VARRYENCE in stats!!! ( yeah my spelling is ******)

http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/51153/faried-knocked-out.gif

- why do you hack up stats like they mean anything in this scenario??...so putting up 20PPG 6 and 6 while winning 6 championships ( the main focus here....Pippen helped his team win 6 Championships while bieng a top player in the NBA)

- if you base all your opinion on mashed up stats without watching the games and seeing the player play...then TMAC is a top 20 player because he had stats??

- watching Pippen play in the 90's ...he did so much more for his team / impacted his team longer then Drexler ever did....Pippen's ability to play defense and basically take away 60% of the court was better then anything Drexler could bring to the table.

- When the Bull's lost the all world offense/defense of Jordan and only slipped 2 games ( when most people would agree....they were expected to probably not even make the playoff's or barely make it)..Pippen Dominated and was 3rd in MVP Voting....he def showed he can be a elite star.

[JMT]

[B][SIZE="7"] When the Bull's lost the all world offense/defense of Jordan and only slipped 2 games ( when most people would agree....they were expected to probably not even make the playoff's or barely make it)..Pippen Dominated and was 3rd in MVP Voting....he def showed he can be a elite star.

For one season, after which neither the team nor his individual stats ever improved.

[Poetry]

- if you watched Pippen in the 90's...he was definitley a top 2 - 5 player in the league from 91 - 98' ( especially if you undertsand basketball/ defense and allaround play)

He was never a top 2-5 player.

I watched his entire career, beginning to end, in Chicago, lived three L stops from the UC, watched him play live on numerous occasions, celebrated victory on a personal level with the city, studied, dissected, discussed his game my entire life.

He was never a top 2-5 player.

And he's not a top 20 player all-time.

What next? Mookie Blaylock is top 50 all-time?

[AlphaWolf24]

He was never a top 2-5 player.

I watched his entire career, beginning to end, in Chicago, lived three L stops from the UC, watched him play live on numerous occasions, celebrated victory on a personal level with the city, studied, dissected, discussed his game my entire life.

He was never a top 2-5 player.

And he's not a top 20 player all-time.

What next? Mookie Blaylock is top 50 all-time?


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9cmpoMVA71qdis52o1_500.jpg

- He was never an MVP candidate??..

- He was never talked about as bieng the 2nd best allaround player in the league after the 1992 Olympics...when he was arguably the best player on the Dream Team ( along with Barkley)???

- He was never the 2nd leading vote getter behind only....(wait for it)...Michael Jordan???..yeah the 2nd leading vote getter is never viewed as a top 5 player:rolleyes:

- anyone saying he was never a top 5 player in league should be thrown into a tank full of Sharks with Lasers..

clearly you are basketball illiterate...Pippen was the 2nd best" allaround" player in the league IMO for a good 5 years.

[AlphaWolf24]

For one season, after which neither the team nor his individual stats ever improved.


for one season...his stats did improve..he became only the 2nd player in NBA History to lead his team in every satistical catagory.

the Bull's FG% and defense also improved that year...and 7 players shot a higher FG% in 95 without Jordan there...despite taking MORE shots...

so yes Pippen and the Bull's improved emensly.

[HardwoodLegend]

- if you base all your opinion on mashed up stats without watching the games and seeing the player play...then TMAC is a top 20 player because he had stats??

T-Mac should be regarded as Top 20 because we know he was capable of it had he been in better health and had a better team in his peak years in Orlando.

He is easily a Top 20 talent.

[Dragonyeuw]

He was never a top 2-5 player.




In 94 and 95, the only players I'd put over him are Hakeem, Shaq, and David Robinson. Pippen was generally considered the 'best non-center' in the game and the best 'all-around player' in the league during Jordan's absence. Top 2 is pushing it, but he was definitely top 5 when Jordan 'retired', and a top 10 force during the Bulls dynasty.

[Bigsmoke]

rings doesnt tell you the whole story.

Pippen was never Dr.J, Bird, LeBron good in his life. never.

[AlphaWolf24]

In 94 and 95, the only players I'd put over him are Hakeem, Shaq, and David Robinson. Pippen was generally considered the 'best non-center' in the game and the best 'all-around player' in the league during Jordan's absence. Top 2 is pushing it, but he was definitely top 5 when Jordan 'retired', and a top 10 force during the Bulls dynasty.


I remember in 96' during the Finals Dr.J and Bob costts saying Pippen was the 2nd best player in the NBA...

by 1992 Pippen was arguably the 2nd best all around player..

[Dragonyeuw]

I remember in 96' during the Finals Dr.J and Bob costts saying Pippen was the 2nd best player in the NBA...

by 1992 Pippen was arguably the 2nd best all around player..

He did have moments that year(96) which would back that up. Pip was a legit MVP candidate in 1996 before injuries slowed him a bit, and this was with Jordan back and on top of his game.

As far as his status in 92, in terms of all-around play? Sure... if you were to comprise a 'top ten list in 1992' I don't think you'd have Pippen as top 2 though. But if we're using the 'all-around' play qualifier in the broad sense, Pip is one of the very best in history, not just of the 90's.....

[JMT]

for one season...his stats did improve..he became only the 2nd player in NBA History to lead his team in every satistical catagory.

the Bull's FG% and defense also improved that year...and 7 players shot a higher FG% in 95 without Jordan there...despite taking MORE shots...

so yes Pippen and the Bull's improved emensly.

Exactly. For one season.

[AlphaWolf24]

Exactly. For one season.


- so you expect him to lead the team in scoring playing with Michael Jordan??

Jordan shoots it 24 - 27 times a game...you think Pippen would lead them in scoring?

- but leading the team in every other catagory is not ok?.....just scoring is all that matters?....

- who cares he helped his teams go to 16 straight Postseasons...



recap ...

- Jordan leaves and Pippen leads the team in scoring, rebounding, assists etc...etc..

Bull's still win 55 games and nearly beat the Knicks in 7 games....Bull's FG% inproves and they hold teams to a lower FG% and lower scoring output

- MJ comes back..Pippen's scoring declines ,but he still dominates everywhere else ...so that = he doesn't improve:hammerhead:

[Ne 1]

He did have moments that year(96) which would back that up. Pip was a legit MVP candidate in 1996 before injuries slowed him a bit, and this was with Jordan back and on top of his game.

As far as his status in 92, in terms of all-around play? Sure... if you were to comprise a 'top ten list in 1992' I don't think you'd have Pippen as top 2 though. But if we're using the 'all-around' play qualifier in the broad sense, Pip is one of the very best in history, not just of the 90's.....

''They are saying that this is an MVP season for you.''

''This guy gives them all the elements on the court that are unattainable anywhere else, he's got that long wingspan, plays defense, makes 3's, make great passes, gets clutch rebounds, goes up and down the floor...gracefully.''

''Is he as good as his teammate?''

''Well as a matter of fact technically he is right now, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things in a package that is unsurpassed in the NBA today but I don't think he's gonna get to take the last shot with Michael on his team.''

The Pippen for MVP campaign was huge in the first couple of months of that season. At a time Pippen was coming off one of the best statistical months of his career (26/7/6 on 55%), won player of the month and it's right after Pippen had proved himself as being capable of leading a team without MJ (lot of people used to think Pippen was overrated during first three peat and he silenced all of those critics in '94).

Read any number of articles at the time, watch a game, listen to the interviews, and you will find a ton of people who were saying Pippen was the MVP of the Bulls. Even MJ was supporting the whole Pippen MVP thing at the time too, went as far as to call the Bulls "Pippen's team".

[Calabis]

OMG!!! ...MARGINAL VARRYENCE in stats!!! ( yeah my spelling is ******)


- why do you hack up stats like they mean anything in this scenario??...so putting up 20PPG 6 and 6 while winning 6 championships ( the main focus here....Pippen helped his team win 6 Championships while bieng a top player in the NBA)

- if you base all your opinion on mashed up stats without watching the games and seeing the player play...then TMAC is a top 20 player because he had stats??

- watching Pippen play in the 90's ...he did so much more for his team / impacted his team longer then Drexler ever did....Pippen's ability to play defense and basically take away 60% of the court was better then anything Drexler could bring to the table.

- When the Bull's lost the all world offense/defense of Jordan and only slipped 2 games ( when most people would agree....they were expected to probably not even make the playoff's or barely make it)..Pippen Dominated and was 3rd in MVP Voting....he def showed he can be a elite star.

:roll: :roll:

at this moron....Pippen did way more for his team...:wtf: here is a mf'er who claims to have watched basketball back then, yet he is coming on here saying while Pip was with Jordan, he had more responsibility than Drexler...GTFOH!!! Drexler was the team's #1 scoring option, he didn't have the luxury of watching another mf'er throw up 30ppg to concentrate his efforts on a specific area in the game, he also guarded the opposing teams best perimeter guards(ie Jordan, Magic, etc), he also rebounded. Pippen had this burden for 1 3/4 seasons, so he took a championship team to a 2nd round exit, the following season he was 34-31 about to miss the playoffs, funny that is ignored by you Pippen pundits. Drexler carried his teams throughout his career, until he teamed up with Hakeem.

Drexler: #1 all time offensive rebounds by a guard
#3 all time rebounding by a guard(Oscar/Kidd)
#3 all time blocks by a guard
#1 most steals in a postseason run(53)
#7 all time steals tied with Pippen

one of three players in NBA history to have posted career totals of at least 20,000 points, 6,000 rebounds and 6,000 assists(where is the great Pip on this list..the way you and the other crazies talk about him, he should be on this list of all around play)

3 year span Drexler led teams, went to Finals, WCF, Finals, he may have lost, but that's far better than any Pippen led team

When he was past his prime he teamed up with another stud(something Pip played with his entire prime) and he won two chips and put up Pip type seasons as a old man.

Also this Pippen theory of defense, I love how u guys claim it eased Jordan's burden(it did), but do you ever take into account that Jordan's great defense eased Pip's burden(it did)....:eek:

I love how people discount stats...like if they are made up..they tell 90% of the story the other 10% Pippen didn't do much more the Drexler...you are talking about what a great all around player he is, yet his stats are marginally worse than Drexler....no one on this board starting threads about Drexler is a great all around player(even though he was a damn good one).

Also last time I checked, we are talking about entire careers, not 1 season where only two teams in u'r conference were expected to be better than you, Knicks and Magic

[PacerRaptor]

i'm a big scottie fan... i even have his throw back jersey on my wall..

but no way should a guy make the top 20 if he was a second fiddle his whole life except for 1 season

all the other guys in the top 20 at most played less than half their career as 2nd man

i have him ranked as #25 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Bob Pettit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. Lebron James
18. Bob Cousy
19. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. John Havlicek
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. Scottie Pippen
no way Kobe is above those three:biggums:

[Sarcastic]

Players considered better than Pippen during 1990s: Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Drexler, O'Neal.

Not one of the teams that had those players would have traded them away for Scottie Pippen.

[JMT]

- so you expect him to lead the team in scoring playing with Michael Jordan??



For one season. He couldn't translate that same level of success, or even close to it, in Houston or Portland.

Look, Pippen was a great player. But you cannot dismiss the impact Jordan had on his success, any more than you can dismiss the impact he had on Jordan's. And aside from one year that ended with him throwing a hissy fit and quitting on his teammates, he never showed the ability to be The Man. And that's the reason the guy doesn't belong in the Top 20 players of all time. It's pretty easy.

Walton doesn't get a pass due to injury. McHale doesn't get a pass due to the fact that Bird was The Man. Pippen doesn't get a pass because of a SLAM magazine article, or scintillating commentary bu Costas and Dr J.

It's no shame. There have been a lot of players in the games history, and very few are in discussion for Top 20 status. It's not so bad being 20-50. There's likely not a person here who ever has or will be among the top 50 in the world at whatever they do.

[Calabis]

no way Kobe is above those three:biggums:

think that's bad, go to BBall Reference Kobehomers invaded the voting poll so bad, that they have Pippen #10 All Time:roll:

KAJ #31, Russell #25, Wilt #521(thanks to Jlauber making enemies):lol :lol

[Calabis]

Players considered better than Pippen during 1990s: Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Drexler, O'Neal.

Not one of the teams that had those players would have traded them away for Scottie Pippen.

:applause:

[Young X]

Players considered better than Pippen during 1990s: Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Drexler, O'Neal.

Not one of the teams that had those players would have traded them away for Scottie Pippen.
Exactly.

[Dragonyeuw]

''They are saying that this is an MVP season for you.''

''This guy gives them all the elements on the court that are unattainable anywhere else, he's got that long wingspan, plays defense, makes 3's, make great passes, gets clutch rebounds, goes up and down the floor...gracefully.''

''Is he as good as his teammate?''

''Well as a matter of fact technically he is right now, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things in a package that is unsurpassed in the NBA today but I don't think he's gonna get to take the last shot with Michael on his team.''

The Pippen for MVP campaign was huge in the first couple of months of that season. At a time Pippen was coming off one of the best statistical months of his career (26/7/6 on 55%), won player of the month and it's right after Pippen had proved himself as being capable of leading a team without MJ (lot of people used to think Pippen was overrated during first three peat and he silenced all of those critics in '94).

Read any number of articles at the time, watch a game, listen to the interviews, and you will find a ton of people who were saying Pippen was the MVP of the Bulls. Even MJ was supporting the whole Pippen MVP thing at the time too, went as far as to call the Bulls "Pippen's team".

I'm assuming you posted all that to back up what I said about the 96 Pippen MVP campaign, right? I was following that team all year long, probably saw at least 70-80 of their games including playoffs. I'm well aware of all that above.

[Dragonyeuw]

For one season. He couldn't translate that same level of success, or even close to it, in Houston or Portland.



I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Pippen had back surgery after the 6th championship in 98, and wasn't nearly the player he was( nor should he have been expected to be) at 34? Put 94 Pippen on that 2000 Blazers squad, and you got something potentially very special....

[Young X]

If Pippen had won an MVP in 1996, it would've been worse than Nash or Rose winning it.

[Calabis]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Pippen had back surgery after the 6th championship in 98, and wasn't nearly the player he was( nor should he have been expected to be) at 34? Put 94 Pippen on that 2000 Blazers squad, and you got something potentially very special....

Pippen had back surgery to repair a herniated disk and missed part of the 1988-89 season.

that was his second surgery, his athleticism took a major hit, but none the less, its part of his career.

[97 bulls]

For one season, after which neither the team nor his individual stats ever improved.
I beg to differ.

Pippens stats in 93
19ppg, 8rbds, 6asts, 2stls, 1blk, 47/23/66


Pippens stats in 94
22ppg, 9rbds 6asts, 3stls, 1blk, 49/32/66

The bold being improvements over the previous year.


I know the typical rebutal is Pippens stats in 92. Well consider this, the league had really changed from 92 to 94. In 92, the league on avg took 7163 shots per team. In 94. The league avg dropped to 6924. Its why Pippen usg went up, but his shot attempts and ppg stayed the same between 92 and 94. There just werent as many shots to go around because the league began to stray away from the uptempo style that was the 80s. By 94, it was gone.

If Pippen had assumed control of the team in 92every with the extra shots, his ppg would be closer to 24-25 ppg. His rebounds go up from 9 to 10, and his assists would go up to 7.

Youre so big on number Calabis, chew on that. Im sure youll skip this post though.

[97 bulls]

Pippen had back surgery to repair a herniated disk and missed part of the 1988-89 season.

that was his second surgery, his athleticism took a major hit, but none the less, its part of his career.
Its one thing to have to back surgery at 24. Having back surgery at 34? Come on.

[97 bulls]

Players considered better than Pippen during 1990s: Jordan, Olajuwon, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Drexler, O'Neal.

Not one of the teams that had those players would have traded them away for Scottie Pippen.
And none of those players won during the 90s aside from Olajuwon

[Dragonyeuw]

that was his second surgery, his athleticism took a major hit, but none the less, its part of his career.

I didn't suggest it wasn't. But since he was 33-34, and coming off a second surgery that clearly diminished his overall impact, it's a bit silly to ignore those factors when discussing his post-Bulls 'lack of success'. He still played an integral role, at 35, on a Portland team that came within a hair of the 2000 NBA finals.

[Young X]

Pippen's numbers barely changed without Jordan.

'92: 21 pts on 17 shots, 51%
'94: 22 pts on 18 shots, 49%

'92: 7 asts
'94: 6 asts

He averaged 1 more defensive rebound in 94.

[JMT]

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Pippen had back surgery after the 6th championship in 98, and wasn't nearly the player he was( nor should he have been expected to be) at 34? Put 94 Pippen on that 2000 Blazers squad, and you got something potentially very special....

But you don't get a pass for injury. Nor do you get to pick & choose what years model you get to put on subsequent teams.

Grant Hill, TMac, Walton, David Thompson, Yao...the list of guys who might be ranked higher all time but lose out in part due to their health goes on and on. Pippen doesn't get to be the only one to ignore the impact that health/luck have on the way a player is regarded.

[I.R.Beast]

I stopped voting after Lebron got voted for number 11...
This... his numbers are nearly identical to Wade's numbers and they have eerily similar playoff Resumes with Wade having 2 rings and James having only one in which he did not play as great as wade played against the mavericks... yet Wade is not top 15?.... BS.

[97 bulls]

For one season. He couldn't translate that same level of success, or even close to it, in Houston or Portland.

Look, Pippen was a great player. But you cannot dismiss the impact Jordan had on his success, any more than you can dismiss the impact he had on Jordan's. And aside from one year that ended with him throwing a hissy fit and quitting on his teammates, he never showed the ability to be The Man. And that's the reason the guy doesn't belong in the Top 20 players of all time. It's pretty easy.

Walton doesn't get a pass due to injury. McHale doesn't get a pass due to the fact that Bird was The Man. Pippen doesn't get a pass because of a SLAM magazine article, or scintillating commentary bu Costas and Dr J.

It's no shame. There have been a lot of players in the games history, and very few are in discussion for Top 20 status. It's not so bad being 20-50. There's likely not a person here who ever has or will be among the top 50 in the world at whatever they do.
Im curious. What could Pippen had done that would satified you? And be realistic. Take into account his situation. The fact that he avg 23ppg vs the Knicks who had the number 1 ranked defense that year. And after he avg 25/10 vs the Cavs the previous round.


Or in 95 when without a competant replacement for not only Jordan, but now Grant, kept his team above 500. But had to lead the league in every major category, run the offense and anchor the defense. While taking on the oppositions best player.

What more could he have done?

[JMT]

This... his numbers are nearly identical to Wade's numbers and they have eerily similar playoff Resumes with Wade having 2 rings and James having only one in which he did not play as great as wade played against the mavericks... yet Wade is not top 15?.... BS.

I won't get into the whole "where LeBron was voted". It's ISH, they had a vote, that was the result.

But there's no measuring stick by which Dwyane Wade is a Top 15 all time player.

[Calabis]

Its one thing to have to back surgery at 24. Having back surgery at 34? Come on.

Who said it didn't? I simply said it was his second of his career, and that second one killed his athleticism.....regardless Bird suffered the same fate, otherwise we don't know what could have been

[JMT]

Im curious. What could Pippen had done that would satified you? And be realistic. Take into account his situation. The fact that he avg 23ppg vs the Knicks who had the number 1 ranked defense that year. And after he avg 25/10 vs the Cavs the previous round.


Or in 95 when without a competant replacement for not only Jordan, but now Grant, kept his team above 500. But had to lead the league in every major category, run the offense and anchor the defense. While taking on the oppositions best player.

What more could he have done?

Probably nothing. That's the level of his ability for that one great year. But lots of players have had one big year as The Man, failed to win a title, and are never mentioned when discussing all time Top 20 players. And that's what this thread is about: a guy who was a terriffic player, but doesn't measure up as a Top 20 all time.

Wherever you feel comfortable putting a guy like McHale is just about where Pippen belongs. And I"m a big fan of both as players.

[97 bulls]

Pippen's numbers barely changed without Jordan.

'92: 21 pts on 17 shots, 51%
'94: 22 pts on 18 shots, 49%

'92: 7 asts
'94: 6 asts

He averaged 1 more defensive rebound in 94.
Pippens stats in 93 19ppg, 8rbds, 6asts, 2stls, 1blk, 47/23/66

Pippens stats in 94 22ppg, 9rbds 6asts, 3stls, 1blk, 49/32/66

The bold being improvements over the previous year.

I know the typical rebutal is Pippens stats in 92. Well consider this, the league had really changed from 92 to 94. In 92, the league on avg took 7163 shots per team. In 94. The league avg dropped to 6924. Its why Pippen usg went up, but his shot attempts and ppg stayed the same between 92 and 94. There just werent as many shots to go around because the league began to stray away from the uptempo style that was the 80s. By 94, it was gone.

If Pippen had assumed control of the team in 92every with the extra shots, his ppg would be closer to 24-25 ppg. His rebounds go up from 9 to 10, and his assists would go up to 7.

[Calabis]

I didn't suggest it wasn't. But since he was 33-34, and coming off a second surgery that clearly diminished his overall impact, it's a bit silly to ignore those factors when discussing his post-Bulls 'lack of success'. He still played an integral role, at 35, on a Portland team that came within a hair of the 2000 NBA finals.

I was agreeing with you, showing that this was second surgery, his athleticism suffered. I myself had surgery on my back for the same reason, no way in hell would I want two of those...I use to trip on McGrady with his back spasms, until I had one myself

[fpliii]

Pippens stats in 93 19ppg, 8rbds, 6asts, 2stls, 1blk, 47/23/66

Pippens stats in 94 22ppg, 9rbds 6asts, 3stls, 1blk, 49/32/66

The bold being improvements over the previous year.

I know the typical rebutal is Pippens stats in 92. Well consider this, the league had really changed from 92 to 94. In 92, the league on avg took 7163 shots per team. In 94. The league avg dropped to 6924. Its why Pippen usg went up, but his shot attempts and ppg stayed the same between 92 and 94. There just werent as many shots to go around because the league began to stray away from the uptempo style that was the 80s. By 94, it was gone.

If Pippen had assumed control of the team in 92every with the extra shots, his ppg would be closer to 24-25 ppg. His rebounds go up from 9 to 10, and his assists would go up to 7.

hey bro, what's your top 25 btw?

[Young X]

Pippens stats in 93 19ppg, 8rbds, 6asts, 2stls, 1blk, 47/23/66

Pippens stats in 94 22ppg, 9rbds 6asts, 3stls, 1blk, 49/32/66

The bold being improvements over the previous year.

I know the typical rebutal is Pippens stats in 92. Well consider this, the league had really changed from 92 to 94. In 92, the league on avg took 7163 shots per team. In 94. The league avg dropped to 6924. Its why Pippen usg went up, but his shot attempts and ppg stayed the same between 92 and 94. There just werent as many shots to go around because the league began to stray away from the uptempo style that was the 80s. By 94, it was gone.

If Pippen had assumed control of the team in 92every with the extra shots, his ppg would be closer to 24-25 ppg. His rebounds go up from 9 to 10, and his assists would go up to 7.
- Pippen had a down season in '93
- Why does the leagues shot attempts matter if Pippen basically took the same amount of shots?
- The Bulls played at a similar pace in '92 as they did in '94

[Calabis]

Pippen's numbers barely changed without Jordan.

'92: 21 pts on 17 shots, 51%
'94: 22 pts on 18 shots, 49%

'92: 7 asts
'94: 6 asts

He averaged 1 more defensive rebound in 94.

But, but, but when Jordan left he showed the world his true capability :roll: :roll:

Pip is one of my favorite players, I even tried to model my game after his....but this crap of him being TOP 20, or in the same breath as Jordan, Bird and Magic is a complete joke and unnecessarily bringing on negative posts about his game. Dude was awesome to watch, but acting like he was the 2nd best player of the 90's is BS as is his status on this board by Kobe fans and Pip apologists....he by far is becoming the most overrated player on ISH.

I keep hearing about Pip like he was Lebron with better defense:facepalm

[97 bulls]

- Pippen had a down season in '93
- Why does the leagues shot attempts matter if Pippen basically took the same amount of shots?
- The Bulls played at a similar pace in '92 as they did in '94
Not true as far as pace. Thats relative to the league pace of that particular year. Not historically.

The league as a whole is shooting less. How can that not matter? His usage went up to 27 in 94 compared to 24 in 92. But his shots stay the same? The numbers dont add up. Iif Pippen had a usg% of 27 in 94, his ppg would be roughly 25. And thats not counting the Fts lost due to less shots.

Youre a smart guy, do the math


And how is 19/8/6 a down season? Come on

[Nevaeh]

No ones trying to downplay scoring. What I have seen people do is try to show the importance great defense has and how it can change a game.

If anything. People try to diminish the role defense plays in a game. By saying such nonsense as "the object of the game is to OUTSCORE" youre opponents. The object of the game is to win. Some try to win with offense some try to win with defense,

Dude, you sometimes post as if Pip was jumping from one man to the other like a bat out of hell defensively, while MJ just stood around waiting for the chance to just "get his" on the offensive end.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

Remember, it was Mike who had the back to back 200 steals records, along with a DPOY award. Not to mention he was expected to be the Bulls' primary scorer, because he was the most consistent offensive player, and the most clutch.

Pip was doing his job defensively, because that's where his strength lies. Phil knew this, and used Pip's long arms and lateral quickness wisely, like a great coach would. But lets not pretend Jordan only cared about scoring. His final sequence with 41 seconds left against the 98 Jazz tells you all you need to know about Jordan's offense, defense and clock management skills, when compared to Pip.

"Co-Alpha" my ass........
:rolleyes:

[Young X]

Not true as far as pace. Thats relative to the league pace of that particular year. Not historically.

The league as a whole is shooting less. How can that not matter? His usage went up to 27 in 94 compared to 24 in 92. But his shots stay the same? The numbers dont add up. Iif Pippen had a usg% of 27 in 94, his ppg would be roughly 25. And thats not counting the Fts lost due to less shots.

Youre a smart guy, do the math


And how is 19/8/6 a down season? Come on
- It was a down season as in it was clearly his worst season from '92-'97, obviously he still had a great season, I'm just saying that compared to himself it was a down season.

- My point is that no matter how many shots the league took, Pippen was still shooting/scoring at the same rate. If in '94 Pippen shot 17 times, how many points would he score?

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: :roll:

at this moron....Pippen did way more for his team...:wtf: here is a mf'er who claims to have watched basketball back then, yet he is coming on here saying while Pip was with Jordan, he had more responsibility than Drexler...GTFOH!!! Drexler was the team's #1 scoring option, he didn't have the luxury of watching another mf'er throw up 30ppg to concentrate his efforts on a specific area in the game, he also guarded the opposing teams best perimeter guards(ie Jordan, Magic, etc), he also rebounded. Pippen had this burden for 1 3/4 seasons, so he took a championship team to a 2nd round exit, the following season he was 34-31 about to miss the playoffs, funny that is ignored by you Pippen pundits. Drexler carried his teams throughout his career, until he teamed up with Hakeem.

Drexler: #1 all time offensive rebounds by a guard
#3 all time rebounding by a guard(Oscar/Kidd)
#3 all time blocks by a guard
#1 most steals in a postseason run(53)
#7 all time steals tied with Pippen

one of three players in NBA history to have posted career totals of at least 20,000 points, 6,000 rebounds and 6,000 assists(where is the great Pip on this list..the way you and the other crazies talk about him, he should be on this list of all around play)

3 year span Drexler led teams, went to Finals, WCF, Finals, he may have lost, but that's far better than any Pippen led team

When he was past his prime he teamed up with another stud(something Pip played with his entire prime) and he won two chips and put up Pip type seasons as a old man.

Also this Pippen theory of defense, I love how u guys claim it eased Jordan's burden(it did), but do you ever take into account that Jordan's great defense eased Pip's burden(it did)....:eek:

I love how people discount stats...like if they are made up..they tell 90% of the story the other 10% Pippen didn't do much more the Drexler...you are talking about what a great all around player he is, yet his stats are marginally worse than Drexler....no one on this board starting threads about Drexler is a great all around player(even though he was a damn good one).

Also last time I checked, we are talking about entire careers, not 1 season where only two teams in u'r conference were expected to be better than you, Knicks and Magic


Cot damn....son...


do you comprehend basketball...

Phil Jackson - "Scottie was the anchor of the defense and the faciliatator on offense"....“I always felt Scottie’s contribution to our team became elevated when we moved him from being a forward to a guard in the 1990-91 season,” said Jackson. “Using Scottie at the guard position within the triangle offense allowed him to do all the things that he did so well.”

“Scottie Pippen was the voice of our team—figuratively and literally, as he did a lot of the talking and kept our team on the same page"

responsibility = be a point forward and get everyone flowing in the triangle, anchor the defense...

with Pipppen and MJ Bull's win 6 Championships...even with MJ gone Bull's win 55 games barely lose to the Knicks in 7 games, Pippen 3rd in MVP voting and only the 2nd player in history to lead his team in every stat.


( You said the Bull's struggled in 95'....but they won 9 outta 11 games right before Michael Jordan returned...they were getting ready for the playoff's and were playing great)


Regular season records

Assists by a forward, career: 6,135

Steals by a forward, career: 2,307

Steals by a forward, season: 232 (1994–95)

Highest average, steals per game, by a forward, season: 2.94 (232/79) (1994–95)

Playoffs records

Steals, career: 395

Steals, quarter: 4, third quarter, vs. Milwaukee Bucks,April 29, 1990
Tied with many other players

NBA Finals records

Three-point field goals made, game: 7, at Utah Jazz,June 6, 1997
Broken by Ray Allen on June 6, 2010

Three-point field goal attempts, 6-game series: 39, vs. Seattle SuperSonics, 1996 NBA Finals
Broken by Reggie Miller in 2000

[edit] All-Star

Three-point field goal attempts, game: 9 (1994)
Broken by Ray Allen (2002)

Three-point field goal attempts, half: 7 (1994)
Tied by Ray Allen (2005) and Tracy McGrady (2006)

Ranks 2nd in NBA history

Regular season

Highest average, steals per game, by a forward, career: 1.96 (2,307/1,178)

Playoffs

Minutes played, career: 8,105
Trailing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Finals

Three-point field goal attempts, game: 11, vs. Utah Jazz,June 6, 1997



All-Star

Three-point field goals made, game: 5 (1994)
Trailing Mark Price and LeBron James (both with 6)

Ranks 3rd in NBA history

Regular season

Highest field goal percentage, game (minimum 15 shots made): .941 (16–17), vs. Charlotte Hornets,February 23, 1991
Only Wilt Chamberlain and George Gervin had more efficient games.

Highest average, assists per game, by a forward, career: 5.21 (6,135/1,178)

Steals, game: 9, vs. Atlanta Hawks,March 8, 1994



Playoffs

Postseasons played: 16

Games played: 208
Trailing Robert Horry and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Three-point field goals made in a game, none missed: 4, twice
4, at Cleveland Cavaliers,April 28, 1989
4, vs. New York Knicks,May 19, 1989

Turnovers, career: 602

Finals

Three-point field goal attempts, game: 10, vs. Utah Jazz,June 10, 1998

Steals, 5-game series: 12, vs. Los Angeles Lakers, 1991 NBA Finals
Trailing Michael Jordan and Charlie Ward

Steals, game: 5, at Los Angeles Lakers,June 12, 1991
Tied with many other players

Ranks 4th in NBA history

Regular season

Steals, game: 8, three times
8, vs. Orlando Magic,December 14, 1989
8, at Indiana Pacers,April 8, 1994
8, vs. Milwaukee Bucks,March 17, 1995

Playoffs

Personal fouls, career: 686

Other records

One of three players in NBA history to record 200 steals and 100 blocked shots in a season: 211 steals, 101 blocks (1989–90)
Michael Jordan (1986–87, 1987–88) and Hakeem Olajuwon (1988–89) are the only other players to do so.

Second player in NBA history to lead his team in all 5 major statistics: 1,692 points, 639 rebounds, 409 assists, 232 steals and 89 blocks (1994–95)
Dave Cowens (Boston Celtics, 1977–78), Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves, 2002–03) and LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008–09) are the only other players to do so.

Only player in history to win a NBA championship and Olympic gold medal in the same year twice (1992, and 1996)

Ranks 5th in career three-pointers made (200) and attempted (660) in the playoffs, and 6th in career steals in the regular season.


- I would absolutley take Pippen over Drexler....Pippen was a much better overall player..

- I watched both players entire careers...Both were amazing players...Pippen was a much better defender and much better cerebral player.

[JMT]

- I watched both players entire careers...Both were amazing players...Pippen was a much better defender and much better cerebral player.[/B]

I'd take Pippen over Drexler too. Neither sniffs the Top 20 all time, which is the whole point of the thread.

[tpols]

- I would absolutley take Pippen over Drexler....Pippen was a much better overall player..

- I watched both players entire careers...Both were amazing players...Pippen was a much better defender and much better cerebral player.
Pretty much this.. On top of the numbers and defense pippen developed a mentality on those bulls teams that shits on Malone and Barkley and d-rob and Shaq and yes even LeBron. His mental toughness and ability was at mj level.

[97 bulls]

I'd take Pippen over Drexler too. Neither sniffs the Top 20 all time, which is the whole point of the thread.
He outplayed Drexler in the 92 nba finals. The Drexler led Blazers coughed up that 15 pt lead to the Bulls led by Pippen with Jordan on the bench. Not only was Pippen scoring on him, but he was also shutting him down on the defensive end.

[JMT]

He outplayed Drexler in the 92 nba finals. The Drexler led Blazers coughed up that 15 pt lead to the Bulls led by Pippen with Jordan on the bench. Not only was Pippen scoring on him, but he was also shutting him down on the defensive end.

Which changes what I said not one bit. I'd take Pippen over Drexler. Neither is close to Top 20 all time. Which was the point of the thread.

[DatAsh]

Pippen isn't the only person with six plus rings that's consistently ranked outside of the top twenty. The top twenty players ever is a very exclusive club, and it takes more than just team success to get someone there. The simple truth of the matter, and why most people don't rank him within their top twenty is that there are twenty other players out there that impacted the game in a bigger manner than he did. It's no surprise that the only people arguing for Pippen in this case are 97 Bulls, who seems to have thrown all objectivity out of the window when it comes to Pippen, despite being quite fair and knowledgeable otherwise, and Kobe freaks(Ne 1, Alpha Wolf), who couldn't give a rat's ass about Pippen; all they care about is diminishing Jordan to prop up their hero.

Pippen is probably my third favorite player ever after Russell and Olajuwon, but at some point we need to throw our biases out the window and at least attempt to look at things objectively. Pippen certainly has the accomplishments of a top twenty player, but accomplishments can only take us so far, at some point we need to step back at and evaluate a player's actual impact, and part of that process requires taking context into consideration.

For me, determining a player's all time rank is as simple as determining that player's impact on the game of basketball, which isn't all that simple. Which player has the best chance of achieving the most team success over the course of his career? Naturally, a player's actual team success can be a good indicator to the answer for the question above, but it's not perfect. Robert Horry has had more team success than Shaquille O'Neal, but Robert Horry doesn't have a better chance of achieving more team success over the course of his career. That may sound somewhat paradoxical, because it did happen, but all signs point to its truth, despite the contradiction. Replay Robert Horry and Shaquille O'Neal's careers 10,000 times in random fashion, and I'd bet my life that O'Neal achieves the greater team success the majority of the time.

What does all this have to do with Scottie Pippen and his all time rank? Well, quite a bit. Scottie Pippen spent the majority of his prime years playing alongside perhaps the greatest player ever, and a very good supporting cast beyond that. Simply using his accomplishments to compare him to what most would consider to be the top twenty players of all time is completely unfair given the circumstances. Just like using Kobe's accomplishments to compare him to someone like Hakeem, using Pippen's six rings as a measure of his greatness doesn't paint the most truthful picture of his ability as a player.

All of this is subjective, so it's important not to ridicule posters that do think more highly of Scottie Pippen, given they state their reasoning and provide ample reasoning, but there is a reason that most un-biased posters rank him outside of the top twenty, albeit not that far outside.

In my opinion, the following players are players that are simply better than Scottie Pippen, and stand a better chance of achieving great team success given a hypothetical career. As such, I think the following players deserve to be ranked above him, regardless of that player's actual team success.

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Pettit
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
John Havlicek
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Moses Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Lebron James
Elgin Baylor
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
George Mikan
Rick Barry
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Bob Cousy

Thats twenty five players that have very strong cases to be ranked above Pippen on any objective list. Dwyane Wade and Patrick Ewing are two players that I personally feel were better overall players than Pippen, but didn't or haven't amassed enough team success to validate that notion, given their level of play. For me, Pippen will go down as possibly the best second option of all time, along side someone like John Stockton. I don't see him as someone who is good enough to lead his team to multiple championships as a number one option, but he's someone who you can pair with any of the twenty or so players who are perhaps more capable of the feat, and then he's as good as it gets.

Finally, I don't ever see Pippen as being the second best player in the league. I think a very strong case can be made that he was within the top five for a good portion of his career, but top two is a definite stretch.

1992 - Jordan, Drexler, Olajuwon, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, and Barkley were all better
1993 - same
1994 - Olajuwon, Robinson, O'Neal, Ewing, and Malone were better
1995- Olajuwon, Robinson, O'Neal, Malone were better
1996- Jordan, Olajuwon, Robinson, O'Neal, Malone were better
1997 - same
1998 - subtract Olajuwon add some others

[97 bulls]

think that's bad, go to BBall Reference Kobehomers invaded the voting poll so bad, that they have Pippen #10 All Time:roll:

KAJ #31, Russell #25, Wilt #521(thanks to Jlauber making enemies):lol :lol
I just checked. Right now, Kobe is ranked 534. Its not Kobe fans that put Pippen at 9. I frequent BBref often. Pippen is normally ranked between 15-22.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pretty much this.. On top of the numbers and defense pippen developed a mentality on those bulls teams that shits on Malone and Barkley and d-rob and Shaq and yes even LeBron. His mental toughness and ability was at mj level.

My god the hyperbole. :oldlol:

[JMT]

Pretty much this.. On top of the numbers and defense pippen developed a mentality on those bulls teams that shits on Malone and Barkley and d-rob and Shaq and yes even LeBron. His mental toughness and ability was at mj level.

Where exactly was that mental toughness when he quit on his team in a playoff game?

[AlphaWolf24]

Which changes what I said not one bit. I'd take Pippen over Drexler. Neither is close to Top 20 all time. Which was the point of the thread.


I know for sure Pippen is alot closer to 20 then he is 50 or even 40....

Just seems he should be alot higher then online fans give him credit for...

hardly anyone here watched Pettit and Havlcek play...to say blindly that they were better then Pippen is silly.

[JMT]

I know for sure Pippen is alot closer to 20 then he is 50 or even 40....

Just seems he should be alot higher then online fans give him credit for...

hardly anyone here watched Pettit and Havlcek play...to say blindly that they were better then Pippen is silly.

Conversely, you seem pretty comfortable blindly proclaiming Pippen as better than guys you never saw play.

Just an observation.

I did see both. Would take Havlicek over Pippen. Didn't see Pettit enough to warrant a comment.

[Heilige]

i'm a big scottie fan... i even have his throw back jersey on my wall..

but no way should a guy make the top 20 if he was a second fiddle his whole life except for 1 season

all the other guys in the top 20 at most played less than half their career as 2nd man

i have him ranked as #25 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Bob Pettit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. Lebron James
18. Bob Cousy
19. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. John Havlicek
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. Scottie Pippen


Where do you rank George Mikan? What is your top 50 like?

[97 bulls]

Pippen isn't the only person with six plus rings that's consistently ranked outside of the top twenty. The top twenty players ever is a very exclusive club, and it takes more than just team success to get someone there. The simple truth of the matter, and why most people don't rank him within their top twenty is that there are twenty other players out there that impacted the game in a bigger manner than he did. It's no surprise that the only people arguing for Pippen in this case are 97 Bulls, who seems to have thrown all objectivity out of the window when it comes to Pippen, despite being quite fair and knowledgeable otherwise, and Kobe freaks(Ne 1, Alpha Wolf), who couldn't give a rat's ass about Pippen; all they care about is diminishing Jordan to prop up their hero.

Pippen is probably my third favorite player ever after Russell and Olajuwon, but at some point we need to throw our biases out the window and at least attempt to look at things objectively. Pippen certainly has the accomplishments of a top twenty player, but accomplishments can only take us so far, at some point we need to step back at and evaluate a player's actual impact, and part of that process requires taking context into consideration.

For me, determining a player's all time rank is as simple as determining that player's impact on the game of basketball, which isn't all that simple. Which player has the best chance of achieving the most team success over the course of his career? Naturally, a player's actual team success can be a good indicator to the answer for the question above, but it's not perfect. Robert Horry has had more team success than Shaquille O'Neal, but Robert Horry doesn't have a better chance of achieving more team success over the course of his career. That may sound somewhat paradoxical, because it did happen, but all signs point to its truth, despite the contradiction. Replay Robert Horry and Shaquille O'Neal's careers 10,000 times in random fashion, and I'd bet my life that O'Neal achieves the greater team success the majority of the time.

What does all this have to do with Scottie Pippen and his all time rank? Well, quite a bit. Scottie Pippen spent the majority of his prime years playing alongside perhaps the greatest player ever, and a very good supporting cast beyond that. Simply using his accomplishments to compare him to what most would consider to be the top twenty players of all time is completely unfair given the circumstances. Just like using Kobe's accomplishments to compare him to someone like Hakeem, using Pippen's six rings as a measure of his greatness doesn't paint the most truthful picture of his ability as a player.

All of this is subjective, so it's important not to ridicule posters that do think more highly of Scottie Pippen, given they state their reasoning and provide ample reasoning, but there is a reason that most un-biased posters rank him outside of the top twenty, albeit not that far outside.

In my opinion, the following players are players that are simply better than Scottie Pippen, and stand a better chance of achieving great team success given a hypothetical career. As such, I think the following players deserve to be ranked above him, regardless of that player's actual team success.

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Pettit
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
John Havlicek
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Moses Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Lebron James
Elgin Baylor
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
George Mikan
Rick Barry
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Bob Cousy

Thats twenty five players that have very strong cases to be ranked above Pippen on any objective list. Dwyane Wade and Patrick Ewing are two players that I personally feel were better overall players than Pippen, but didn't or haven't amassed enough team success to validate that notion, given their level of play. For me, Pippen will go down as possibly the best second option of all time, along side someone like John Stockton. I don't see him as someone who is good enough to lead his team to multiple championships as a number one option, but he's someone who you can pair with any of the twenty or so players who are perhaps more capable of the feat, and then he's as good as it gets.

Finally, I don't ever see Pippen as being the second best player in the league. I think a very strong case can be made that he was within the top five for a good portion of his career, but top two is a definite stretch.

1992 - Jordan, Drexler, Olajuwon, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, and Barkley were all better
1993 - same
1994 - Olajuwon, Robinson, O'Neal, Ewing, and Malone were better
1995- Olajuwon, Robinson, O'Neal, Malone were better
1996- Jordan, Olajuwon, Robinson, O'Neal, Malone were better
1997 - same
1998 - subtract Olajuwon add some others
How have I thrown out all objectivity where Pippen is concerned? Have you actually read some of the garbage ive had to confront over the past few days?

I have more than stated my point case as to why I feel Scottie Pippen deserves more credit than he recieves.

Do you routinely check Pippen rating on BBR? Hes routinely ranked around 15-22. Sometimes higher ssometimes lower. You got clowns on here saying he shouldnt even be in the top 50.

Im just curious as to hhow i throw out all objectivity?

[Dragonyeuw]

But you don't get a pass for injury. Nor do you get to pick & choose what years model you get to put on subsequent teams.



But you get to highlight his lack of success post-Chicago while ignoring how getting back surgery at 33 would diminish his abilities and,by extension, adversely impact his on-court success?

In the big picture, we have a short sample size of what a prime Pippen would be like as an alpha dog. 94 and 95( before Jordan returned) were banner seasons aside from the 1.8 second sitout in the playoffs(admittedly a major hiccup in what were otherwise stellar seasons). I understand what you're saying, but I just don't agree that Pippen loses points for what he did or didnt do past his prime and diminished from back injury.

[Calabis]

He outplayed Drexler in the 92 nba finals. The Drexler led Blazers coughed up that 15 pt lead to the Bulls led by Pippen with Jordan on the bench. Not only was Pippen scoring on him, but he was also shutting him down on the defensive end.

Yeah because Pippen had the burden of guarding Jordan, while being the teams #1 scoring option and Drexler going against Jordan/Pip on the perimeter...nice analysis...Drexler was a better player than Pip especially the 91/92 season...Pippen did have a great series, one of my favorite Finals by Pippen

Also point of Drexler is, not many have him in Top 20, which should mean Pip shouldn't be either

[JMT]

But you get to highlight his lack of success post-Chicago while ignoring how getting back surgery at 33 would diminish his abilities and,by extension, adversely impact his on-court success?

Yes, I sure do. I'm dealing in facts, not supposition about what might/could have been.

Players have varying degrees of luck with health, injury and longevity. And a lot of it is luck. But luck, good or bad, impacts the overall view of a career.

Walton had lousy luck. At his best, he was among the Top 5 centers I ever saw play the game. But I can't realistically have him on a Top 20 list because his bad luck with injury impacted his career performance.

Maravich was on terrible teams, with teammates that resented his race and bank account, and suffered serious injury issues. One of my all time favorite players and, at his best, mesmerizing. Top 20 skills? Unquestioned. Top 20 career? Not if I'm being fair.

You see how it goes. I don't doubt or diminish the impact of Pippen's back troubles. But I also know that it can't fairly be used as an excuse for a lack of production that could have, possibly, moved him up the all time list.

[Calabis]

I just checked. Right now, Kobe is ranked 534. Its not Kobe fans that put Pippen at 9. I frequent BBref often. Pippen is normally ranked between 15-22.

Lebron and Jordanstans...... no way is he not Top 10(Kobe)

I can see Pip 24-35

[Calabis]

Yes, I sure do. I'm dealing in facts, not supposition about what might/could have been.

Players have varying degrees of luck with health, injury and longevity. And a lot of it is luck. But luck, good or bad, impacts the overall view of a career.

Walton had lousy luck. At his best, he was among the Top 5 centers I ever saw play the game. But I can't realistically have him on a Top 20 list because his bad luck with injury impacted his career performance.

Maravich was on terrible teams, with teammates that resented his race and bank account, and suffered serious injury issues. One of my all time favorite players and, at his best, mesmerizing. Top 20 skills? Unquestioned. Top 20 career? Not if I'm being fair.

You see how it goes. I don't doubt or diminish the impact of Pippen's back troubles. But I also know that it can't fairly be used as an excuse for a lack of production that could have, possibly, moved him up the all time list.

Exactly...:applause: ....Bird may be TOP GOAT without his back issues, how insane is that, when you consider where most people have him ranked already. It is what it is, its part of his career.

[Cali Syndicate]

Lebron and Jordanstans...... no way is he not Top 10(Kobe)

I can see Pip 24-35

Yeah Kobe is definitely top 10. Pippen top 30.

On a side note, probably gonna get flamed for this but I'd take prime Grant Hill over Prime Pippen.

[Calabis]

Yeah Kobe is definitely top 10. Pippen top 30.

On a side note, probably gonna get flamed for this but I'd take prime Grant Hill over Prime Pippen.

Thanks for taking some of the heat off :roll:


but I don't see anything wrong with that...I would too

[Dragonyeuw]

Yes, I sure do. I'm dealing in facts, not supposition about what might/could have been.

........

You see how it goes. I don't doubt or diminish the impact of Pippen's back troubles. But I also know that it can't fairly be used as an excuse for a lack of production that could have, possibly, moved him up the all time list.

I'm dealing with reason. Age and back surgery is a reasonable cause for dropoff in performance/ production, and in no way is it reasonable to hold him to the same standard of success that you would when he was in his prime. You speak of fairness, yet you feel its fair to acknowledge the impact of his back issue while still holding him to the standard of a pre-injury prime Pip? Its a double standard, you either acknowledge the impact of the injury and subsequently how it affects his on-court success, or you don't.

I agree that in the big picture you cant discount it; its a part of his career and I havent argued otherwise. But are his years in Portland and Houston symbolic of his prime? Of course not, when people argue Jordan as GOAT or Shaq as a top 7-8 player what part do their Wizard and Suns/Cavs/Celtics footnote years play into their stature? How are we defining Pippen, based on his prime as a Bull or as a 35 year old on his last legs in Portland?

For the record, I'm not arguing that Pip was a top 20 player. I am, however, of the opinion that his legacy was set as a bull and while he did nothing post-Chicago to raise his alltime rankings, he didn't do anything to drop down in the rankings either. How many players, asides from Jordan, were able to actually add to or enhance their legacies when they were 34-35 years old?

[DatAsh]

How have I thrown out all objectivity where Pippen is concerned? Have you actually read some of the garbage ive had to confront over the past few days?

I have more than stated my point case as to why I feel Scottie Pippen deserves more credit than he recieves.

Do you routinely check Pippen rating on BBR? Hes routinely ranked around 15-22. Sometimes higher ssometimes lower. You got clowns on here saying he shouldnt even be in the top 50.

Im just curious as to hhow i throw out all objectivity?

Because it's clear that you're very biased when talking about Pippen. You said Pippen > Magic and Pippen = Bird.

In the past, I've enjoyed your take on Pippen. I love the fact that you defend him when people are comparing him to the players in the 35+ range, but just recently I feel that you've been taking it too far.

[G.O.A.T]

Scottie Pippen says hello.

6 rings as a co-alpha dog (okay so he never hit the game winners, but for 47 minutes and 45 seconds he was a co-alpha ). One of the most dominant defensive players of all time, as well as an incredible playmaker and finisher. Pippen should be nowhere lower than 15.

I am ashamed and horrified for a website that I have been visiting off and on since 2005.

:(

Not in way shape or form was he a co-alpha for any of the titles.

He was always the second best player and even in '96 and '97 when he was nearly as good skill wise, the intangibles that make MJ who he was set him apart.

Extremely flawed premise my friend.

[BlueandGold]

I stopped voting after Lebron got voted for number 11...
This, and it's not all about rings. Cousey has 8, Havlichek has the same amount I believe.. they aren't in the top20. Close but I would put them just outside.

[fpliii]

This, and it's not all about rings. Cousey has 8, Havlichek has the same amount I believe.. they aren't in the top20. Close but I would put them just outside.

Havlicek outside the top 20? What're your top 25 (not that I have a huge problem with that placement, but if you give the rest of your rankings it'll make sense)?

[bizil]

I saw Pip's entire career as a Bull and a great deal of his post-Bulls career.

The guy is not top 20. Taking into account individual play and his team accomplishments, he's top 30, but not top 20.

I don't know when it happened, but at some point in recent years, the young bloods on the internet started pushing him into the top twenty.

From what i gather, especially when i was strictly lurking in the background on this site, i noticed that certain people have an agenda to make Scottie Pippen = Kobe = Shaq.

In order to say, Michael Jordan played with someone of Shaq/or Kobe's caliber.

But anyone who saw Pip's career knows he isn't on that level.

As much as i like Pip, I've seen too many super elite players come and go to push Pip into the top 20.

I'm not saying he's Jamal Mashburn or Antoine Walker, but Pip's a tier below contemporaries like Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins, David Robinson and the list goes on, and the list continues with players from other eras.

Well said sir! Pip in my book was an HOFer and top 10 GOAT SF. But I can't put him in the top 20. He's more of a top 30-40 GOAT.

[bizil]

Yeah Kobe is definitely top 10. Pippen top 30.

On a side note, probably gonna get flamed for this but I'd take prime Grant Hill over Prime Pippen.

U won't get flamed by me at all cause I agree! I always thought prime G Hill was better than Scottie. The only real edge I give Pip is defense, but G Hill was a very good-great defender. Hill had more stage presence being a Batman as well. If Hill stays healthy, I think u are talking a top 10 GOAT SF. And peak value wise, I think u are talking a top 3-4 SF. I always saw G Hill as a combo of Pippen's point forward-all around ability and Dr. J's freak athletic scoring ability. But I do concede Hill didn't get quite as dominant as Doc scoring. But Hill was well on his way and I feel more adept at it than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Because it's clear that you're very biased when talking about Pippen. You said Pippen > Magic and Pippen = Bird.

In the past, I've enjoyed your take on Pippen. I love the fact that you defend him when people are comparing him to the players in the 35+ range, but just recently I feel that you've been taking it too far.
Im sorry you feel that way. More than likly, youve probably came in in the middle of a cenversation I may be having with a few people a draw a conclusion about one post I made without taking it into context.

For instance. I stated Magic and Pippen have the same skillset as far as putting the ball in the basket. Does that make one a better scorer than the other? No. But you talk about bias. Put your bias aside for a moment. Magic played in an offense thats gonna net inflated stats. They were similar rebounders, similar jumpshooters, both players ran their offense to perfection. Magic was considered a great passer. Pippen alos a very good passer. Magic was a BAD defender. Terrible. Pippen is an alltime great defender. Remove the name and the politics. Grade both players on a scale of 1-10 based on these factors


One on one scoring

Team play

Shooting

Post game

Attacking the basket

Rebounding

Passing

IQ

Man defense

Help defense

Total the results and lets see who has more points.

[KOBE143]

Scottie was the 2nd best player in the 90's.. In 93 and 94 he was the best player.. During Bulls 2nd 3peat, he was 1b to Jordan 1a and most of the time he's the man coz Mike's always struggle due to age.. That's why Phil always relied on Pippen and rested Mike and limit his minutes for late game.. But the Bulls games were always blown out and that's the reason why they dont always need Mike to take over the game.. Mike was indeed lucky..

[DatAsh]

Im sorry you feel that way. More than likly, youve probably came in in the middle of a cenversation I may be having with a few people a draw a conclusion about one post I made without taking it into context.

For instance. I stated Magic and Pippen have the same skillset as far as putting the ball in the basket. Does that make one a better scorer than the other? No. But you talk about bias. Put your bias aside for a moment. Magic played in an offense thats gonna net inflated stats. They were similar rebounders, similar jumpshooters, both players ran their offense to perfection. Magic was considered a great passer. Pippen alos a very good passer. Magic was a BAD defender. Terrible. Pippen is an alltime great defender. Remove the name and the politics. Grade both players on a scale of 1-10 based on these factors


One on one scoring

Team play

Shooting

Post game

Attacking the basket

Rebounding

Passing

IQ

Man defense

Help defense

Total the results and lets see who has more points.

I can tell just by looking at those criteria that Pippen's going to come out ahead simply by merit of being the more well rounded player. Who's to say that those arbitrary set of attributes completely encapsulate a basketball player and define his impact on court?, cause I don't think it does. Who's to say that all of those attributes should be given equal weight? What is team play? Magic was perhaps the best ever at improving the play of his teammates by giving them easy looks and setting them up, if that's what you're referring to. If that is what you mean by team play, do you really think that should have the same weight as something like attacking the basket?

Bottom line is, I don't think it's as easy as assigning scores to these arbitrary attributes to try and determine the better player. Who do you honestly thing contributed more to their team's success, Scottie Pippen or Magic Johnson?

[greymatter]

How the hell is lebron james 11?

Apparently you weren't old enough to remember when people were already anointing Jordan as the greatest ever after just his 2nd title. Part of it was massive media hype with ESPN and all those stupid fcuking Nike and Gatorade commercials.

[rhythmic]

http://fansofmediocrity.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/robert-horry.jpg

This guy should be top 40 at least then too, huh?

Yes because Robert Horry would have led the 94' Bulls to 56 wins and a conference finals berth.

Pippen is not top fifteen but he is very very underrated.

[97 bulls]

I can tell just by looking at those criteria that Pippen's going to come out ahead simply by merit of being the more well rounded player. Who's to say that those arbitrary set of attributes completely encapsulate a basketball player and define his impact on court?, cause I don't think it does. Who's to say that all of those attributes should be given equal weight? What is team play? Magic was perhaps the best ever at improving the play of his teammates by giving them easy looks and setting them up, if that's what you're referring to. If that is what you mean by team play, do you really think that should have the same weight as something like attacking the basket?

Bottom line is, I don't think it's as easy as assigning scores to these arbitrary attributes to try and determine the better player. Who do you honestly thing contributed more to their team's success, Scottie Pippen or Magic Johnson?
Pippen. For no other reason, his role on the defensive side of the ball. Both ran their teams offense. Pippen made his teammates better too. But consider who we say Magic "made" better. Kareem? He was the best player in the league when Magic joined the Lakers. Worthy? Mcadoo? Wilkes? Did AC Greens game change much without Magic? Magic joined an established great team.

Every player on the Bulls 94 team had career years with Pippen. NE1 posted player perspectives on Pippen as a teammate. Jackson said Pippen was their anchor and facilitator. Meaing he ran their offense. That offense had four first place finishes with Pippen at the helm. Magic was a great teammate that made his team better. But so was Pippen. The numbers and results bare it out.

As far as calling their attributes "arbitrary". I think its more than fair. Seeing as how their skill sets and capabilities were the same. Besides. I have a hunch that if you believed Magic would come out on top, you wouldve listed them with no problem.

[Nevaeh]

Pippen. For no other reason, his role on the defensive side of the ball. Both ran their teams offense. Pippen made his teammates better too. But consider who we say Magic "made" better. Kareem? He was the best player in the league when Magic joined the Lakers. Worthy? Mcadoo? Wilkes? Did AC Greens game change much without Magic? Magic joined an established great team.

Every player on the Bulls 94 team had career years with Pippen. NE1 posted player perspectives on Pippen as a teammate. Jackson said Pippen was their anchor and facilitator. Meaing he ran their offense. That offense had four first place finishes with Pippen at the helm. Magic was a great teammate that made his team better. But so was Pippen. The numbers and results bare it out.

As far as calling their attributes "arbitrary". I think its more than fair. Seeing as how their skill sets and capabilities were the same. Besides. I have a hunch that if you believed Magic would come out on top, you wouldve listed them with no problem.

Dude, I don't know why you insist on ice skating up hill with this bullsh!t Pip-Magic comparison. First things first. Pip was the leader of his team a grand total of 1 year, and some months. Magic was the Floor general and the Leader for a solid 11 years. Kareem has even admitted that Magic reinvigorated his career, as it was winding down.

Secondly, Pip was the "initiator" of the Bulls offense, which is not the same thing as what a true point guard like Magic was doing. Magic was directing his teammates to specific spots on the floor, night in-night out and expected them to be there, if they wanted to see the ball from him. Not to mention Magic's B-ball IQ thumps the living hell out of Pip's, when it comes to "on the fly" decision making.

Also, Magic was excellent at playing the passing lanes, and crashing the boards for defensive rebounds, so lets not act like Magic was some helpless retard when it came to playing the defensive side of the ball either.

And lastly, for all of Pip's accomplishments in that "fabled" ONE FULL SEASON, he has absolutely nothing tangible to show for it. No scoring titles, no MVPs, no DPOY award, no assist leader record, Championship as "Da Man", nothing. He did what he was supposed to do as a 7 year veteran of a team he was now the leader of. He just never lead his team as good as, or close to the level of Magic.

[Calabis]

Im sorry you feel that way. More than likly, youve probably came in in the middle of a cenversation I may be having with a few people a draw a conclusion about one post I made without taking it into context.

For instance. I stated Magic and Pippen have the same skillset as far as putting the ball in the basket. Does that make one a better scorer than the other? No. But you talk about bias. Put your bias aside for a moment. Magic played in an offense thats gonna net inflated stats. They were similar rebounders, similar jumpshooters, both players ran their offense to perfection. Magic was considered a great passer. Pippen alos a very good passer. Magic was a BAD defender. Terrible. Pippen is an alltime great defender. Remove the name and the politics. Grade both players on a scale of 1-10 based on these factors


One on one scoring

Team play

Shooting

Post game

Attacking the basket

Rebounding

Passing

IQ

Man defense

Help defense

Total the results and lets see who has more points.

:confusedshrug: a 1-10 scale with no barometer...nice ploy, Magic better than Pip at everything except, defense, dunking and 3pt shooting

[Optimus Prime]

If you haven't noticed by now these ISH polls are trash and should be routinely ignored. That's how it's always been but this year is especially egregious. Lebron at #11...:facepalm :wtf: :banghead:

:kobe:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Scottie was the 2nd best player in the 90's.. In 93 and 94 he was the best player.. During Bulls 2nd 3peat, he was 1b to Jordan 1a and most of the time he's the man coz Mike's always struggle due to age.. That's why Phil always relied on Pippen and rested Mike and limit his minutes for late game.. But the Bulls games were always blown out and that's the reason why they dont always need Mike to take over the game.. Mike was indeed lucky..

Kids. Geez... :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

Kids. Geez... :oldlol:

Painful, isn't it?

[JMT]

I'm dealing with reason. Age and back surgery is a reasonable cause for dropoff in performance/ production, and in no way is it reasonable to hold him to the same standard of success that you would when he was in his prime. You speak of fairness, yet you feel its fair to acknowledge the impact of his back issue while still holding him to the standard of a pre-injury prime Pip? Its a double standard, you either acknowledge the impact of the injury and subsequently how it affects his on-court success, or you don't.

I agree that in the big picture you cant discount it; its a part of his career and I havent argued otherwise. But are his years in Portland and Houston symbolic of his prime? Of course not, when people argue Jordan as GOAT or Shaq as a top 7-8 player what part do their Wizard and Suns/Cavs/Celtics footnote years play into their stature? How are we defining Pippen, based on his prime as a Bull or as a 35 year old on his last legs in Portland?

For the record, I'm not arguing that Pip was a top 20 player. I am, however, of the opinion that his legacy was set as a bull and while he did nothing post-Chicago to raise his alltime rankings, he didn't do anything to drop down in the rankings either. How many players, asides from Jordan, were able to actually add to or enhance their legacies when they were 34-35 years old?

Never once argued that injury didn't affect him. You're chasing rabbits.

My point is solely that his career, taken as a whole, does not merit inclusion in the Top 20 all time players.

Any inclusion of Portland or Houston was solely to illustrate *in the context of discussion with a specific poster) that, aside from one season, he never in his career was his team's #1. And while that one year was a great year for him, it isn't enough to vault him past other players and into the Top 20.

Basically, I don't care about his back. It isn't germane to the discussion. A player either accomplished enough in his career to attain Top 20 status or he didn't. He didn't.

[97 bulls]

Dude, I don't know why you insist on ice skating up hill with this bullsh!t Pip-Magic comparison. First things first. Pip was the leader of his team a grand total of 1 year, and some months. Magic was the Floor general and the Leader for a solid 11 years. Kareem has even admitted that Magic reinvigorated his career, as it was winding down.

Secondly, Pip was the "initiator" of the Bulls offense, which is not the same thing as what a true point guard like Magic was doing. Magic was directing his teammates to specific spots on the floor, night in-night out and expected them to be there, if they wanted to see the ball from him. Not to mention Magic's B-ball IQ thumps the living hell out of Pip's, when it comes to "on the fly" decision making.

Also, Magic was excellent at playing the passing lanes, and crashing the boards for defensive rebounds, so lets not act like Magic was some helpless retard when it came to playing the defensive side of the ball either.

And lastly, for all of Pip's accomplishments in that "fabled" ONE FULL SEASON, he has absolutely nothing tangible to show for it. No scoring titles, no MVPs, no DPOY award, no assist leader record, Championship as "Da Man", nothing. He did what he was supposed to do as a 7 year veteran of a team he was now the leader of. He just never lead his team as good as, or close to the level of Magic.
Pippen ran the Bulls offense going back to 91. Phil Jackson says so. Heres what he said about Pippens role on the offense and defense.



Phil Jackson - "Scottie was the anchor of the defense and the faciliatator on offense"....“I always felt Scottie’s contribution to our team became elevated when we moved him from being a forward to a guard in the 1990-91 season,” said Jackson. “Using Scottie at the guard position within the triangle offense allowed him to do all the things that he did so well.”

Why do you think people call him point forward? And im not implying he was the best player on the team. But he did run the bulls offense and anchor the defense.

Magic and the Lakers ran the fastbreak offense. Which is perhaps the easiest offense to run. Eeither he gets the rebound or if someone else does, they get the ball to him. And they run like a bat out of hell trying to beat the other team down the court. If the break was unsuccessful, then they simply pound the ball into Worthy or Jabaar depending on who had the easier matchup. Did you know it was Pippen that led the dreamteam in assists. Not Magic.

I see nothing Magic did on the court that Pippen didnt or couldnt.

Im not implying Pippen should be ranked higher than Magic, but just because Magic is ranked higher than him, doesnt make him a better basketball player.

[97 bulls]

I can tell just by looking at those criteria that Pippen's going to come out ahead simply by merit of being the more well rounded player. Who's to say that those arbitrary set of attributes completely encapsulate a basketball player and define his impact on court?, cause I don't think it does. Who's to say that all of those attributes should be given equal weight? What is team play? Magic was perhaps the best ever at improving the play of his teammates by giving them easy looks and setting them up, if that's what you're referring to. If that is what you mean by team play, do you really think that should have the same weight as something like attacking the basket?

Bottom line is, I don't think it's as easy as assigning scores to these arbitrary attributes to try and determine the better player. Who do you honestly thing contributed more to their team's success, Scottie Pippen or Magic Johnson?
They were the same type of player bro. Whats with this "arbitrary" nonsense? Its not as if im comparing him to Shaq.

[97 bulls]

Never once argued that injury didn't affect him. You're chasing rabbits.

My point is solely that his career, taken as a whole, does not merit inclusion in the Top 20 all time players.

Any inclusion of Portland or Houston was solely to illustrate *in the context of discussion with a specific poster) that, aside from one season, he never in his career was his team's #1. And while that one year was a great year for him, it isn't enough to vault him past other players and into the Top 20.

Basically, I don't care about his back. It isn't germane to the discussion. A player either accomplished enough in his career to attain Top 20 status or he didn't. He didn't.
Then stop penalizing him for not leading a team to a championship at 35 years old with a bad back. It honestly dumb.

[Dragonyeuw]

Never once argued that injury didn't affect him. You're chasing rabbits.

My point is solely that his career, taken as a whole, does not merit inclusion in the Top 20 all time players.

Any inclusion of Portland or Houston was solely to illustrate *in the context of discussion with a specific poster) that, aside from one season, he never in his career was his team's #1. And while that one year was a great year for him, it isn't enough to vault him past other players and into the Top 20.

Basically, I don't care about his back. It isn't germane to the discussion. A player either accomplished enough in his career to attain Top 20 status or he didn't. He didn't.

And I basically said at the very end that I don't consider him a top 20 player. I've never argued he was. So I'm not sure why you're bringing that particular point into our exchange, because its not a point of contention and I made that perfectly clear earlier as far as his ranking goes.

You raised the issue of his lack of success in Portland and Houston, and I initially responded on *that* point alone, citing how age and injury shouldn't be discounted when taking into account his 'lack of success' at a point where his legacy was already established. Nobody cares about Jordan at 40 failing to take Washington to the playoffs when assessing his all-time status, his ranking is based on what he did in his prime. The same goes with Pippen; his prime was effectively 91-98 and I think most people reasonably measure his all-time status on those years, not what he failed to do after those years when he was past his prime with a bad back.

Once again, I've never argued that Pip was a top 20 player, and my point in addressing you was only to highlight how injury and age would reasonably impact him after he left Chicago, not to argue that this was the difference between whether he's a top 20 player or not.

[KOBE143]

If he didn't played together with Jordan and have his own team as the man for his entire career, I can see him as a top 10 player of all time easily.. It's sad that Jordan ruined his legacy..

[chains5000]

If he didn't played together with Jordan and have his own team as the man for his entire career, I can see him as a top 10 player of all time easily.. It's sad that Jordan ruined his legacy..
Date of Birth:
September 29, 1997
Age:
14
Biography:
Baketball Legend
Location:
Kobe's <3
Interests:
Basketball

:roll:

[KOBE143]

Date of Birth:
September 29, 1997
Age:
14
Biography:
Baketball Legend
Location:
Kobe's <3
Interests:
Basketball

:roll:
What's so funny? :confusedshrug: Why post my profile.. What's wrong with it? I don't get it.. :facepalm

[chains5000]

What's so funny? :confusedshrug: Why post my profile.. What's wrong with it? I don't get it.. :facepalm
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mjhsxkquvJk/TaMUGx3ylvI/AAAAAAAABBQ/00SKpc1tNZU/s1600/troll%2Bkid.jpg

[KOBE143]

You post a Kid picture.. :lol I'm 15 idiot..

[chains5000]

You post a Kid picture.. :lol I'm 15 idiot..
:violin:

[Dragonyeuw]

You post a Kid picture.. :lol I'm 15 idiot..

Ah, that would explain it.

[KOBE143]

:violin:
:confusedshrug:

[KOBE143]

Ah, that would explain it.
Explain what?

[Dragonyeuw]

Explain what?

Your comments.....notably in this thread.

[Ne 1]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Pippen ran the Bulls offense going back to 91. Phil Jackson says so. Heres what he said about Pippens role on the offense and defense.



Phil Jackson - "Scottie was the anchor of the defense and the faciliatator on offense"....

[KOBE143]

Your comments.....notably in this thread.
I still dont get what you mean dude.. :confusedshrug:

[Nevaeh]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Pippen ran the Bulls offense going back to 91. Phil Jackson says so. Heres what he said about Pippens role on the offense and defense.



Phil Jackson - "Scottie was the anchor of the defense and the faciliatator on offense"....

[Ne 1]

Then stop penalizing him for not leading a team to a championship at 35 years old with a bad back. It honestly dumb.

Yep. Although I still think Pippen at 35 past his prime, hobbled with a bad back leading Portland to 59 games and being one quarter away from the Finals is very impressive. It took Shaq and Kobe, the best 1-2 punch in NBA history to deny him a chance at a 7th ring.

[Dragonyeuw]

I still dont get what you mean dude.. :confusedshrug:

I know you don't.

[KOBE143]

I know you don't.
You're too confusing.. I think you're weird.. :lol

[Nevaeh]

Great post.



Some people claim (usually Jordan trolls) that he wasn't a true franchise player because he couldn't score enough, yet I'd take 20-22 ppg from Scottie along with his play making, facilitating, defense, rebounding and leadership over the extra 5 ppg and inferior all around game from many of the flashier perimeter players.

Also I could care less about rings as the "#1 scoring option". Just look at Scottie's Finals performances in 91', 92', 93', 97', and 98'. If he didn't perform at a high level (21/9/8, 21/9/7, 21/8/8 near triple double averages wrecked havoc on the Jazz offense, etc.) the Bulls would have lost. Scottie was a consistent winner. 16 straight years in the playoffs, 9 conference finals, 6 championships. His teams won 50+ practically every year and 59+ six times. Combining his winning and his defense, he is the greatest defensive small forward and arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever, I have him at top 20.

His All-NBA and All-Defense voting during his peak (94'-96') ranks tell the tale.

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd (behind MJ)
All-Defense voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

That is how good peak Pippen was.

Of course you don't. because, just like your boy, Pip was a side kick putting up sidekick Finals Numbers, while the Alphas did the heavy lifting and won the FMVPs.

And like I told 97, yeah Pip did ALLLLLLLLLLL that sh!t, yet without an MVP, Finals MVP, DPOY award, or anything else that declares " Top 20 All Time Great" to show for it.

And also, Pip was never a "Franchise Player" because he was brought to a team as support to the already existing "Franchise Player", as if your phoney ass didn't already know that.
:oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

You're too confusing.. I think you're weird.. :lol

Some of the comments you make defy all logic and reason, and now that I know your age, it dawns on me that someone born in 1997 wouldn't have anything other than youtube 'knowledge' of Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan, and couldn't give an educated breakdown on anything from that period. In the same breathe, I can't sit and analyze Oscar Robertson, or Jerry West, or young Kareem. They were before my time, and under no circumstances would I write anything stupid about their abilities when I have nothing but youtube footage and stats to go on. In fact, I find this entire exercise of ranking players dumb. Who here has seen every player listed in the top 10 or 20, to be able to analyze their ranking? Let's not forgot the issue of rule changes, eras, and things of that sort.

So tell me, your knowledge of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen and their roles on the Bulls comes from...what exactly?

[97 bulls]

Of course you don't. because, just like your boy, Pip was a side kick putting up sidekick Finals Numbers, while the Alphas did the heavy lifting and won the FMVPs.

And like I told 97, yeah Pip did ALLLLLLLLLLL that sh!t, yet without an MVP, Finals MVP, DPOY award, or anything else that declares " Top 20 All Time Great" to show for it.

And also, Pip was never a "Franchise Player" because he was brought to a team as support to the already existing "Franchise Player", as if your phoney ass didn't already know that.
:oldlol:
Let me ask you a question. Who do you have ranked higher, Mchale or Rodman

[Ne 1]

Pip was a side kick putting up sidekick Finals Numbers, while the Alphas did the heavy lifting and won the FMVPs.


So what's your point? MJ was more valuable and a better player than Pippen? No shit Sherlock.

Right, Pippen was worthless. A legit 20/10/10 threat every night with world class defense...such a dispensable side-kick.

'91 - 21/9/7/2, including 32/13/7/5 in the final game + great defense on Magic in some games (something Phil said "changed the fortunes of the team")
'92 - 21/8/8/2, including leading the famous run with Jordan on the bench to avoid a game 7
'93 - 21/9/8/2, including a triple double, and great defense yet again
'97 - 20/8/4/2, great defense yet again
'98 - Pippen led the Bulls to 3 of their wins in that series with arguably the GOAT defensive performance in a series for a perimeter player.

Lot of people even thought Pippen was deserving of the '98 Finals MVP.

Pippen's defense was the key in the series. Journalists who watched the series, watched Scottie single handedly shut down the Jazz knew what was up. When the Bulls had the 3-1 lead, Pippen averaging 20/7/4 while completely wrecking havoc on the Jazz offense seemed to be the favorite to win it but then Jordan hitting 'the shot' in the game 6 swung it away from him.

Here's the Chicago Tribune:

FINALS MVP? THIS TIME, PIPPEN DESERVES IT

(Scottie) Pippen scored 28 points Wednesday night, again was disruptive on defense and was a rebounding force for the Bulls, who defeated the Utah Jazz 86-82 to take a 3-1 lead in the NBA Finals.

(Michael) Jordan, of course, was the game's leading scorer with 34 points and Dennis Rodman made several crucial free throws down the stretch to go with 14 rebounds. But it was Pippen again with an impressive all-around game.

Daily Herald:

If Bulls win, Pippen deserves MVP

If the Bulls win tonight and clinch their sixth world championship, Scottie Pippen should be named the MVP of the NBA Finals. There's absolutely no reason the voters shouldn't pick him. I mean, Scottie has really been the driving force behind the Bulls success against Utah. His energy on the defensive end and his ability to push the ball up the floor have set the tempo for the entire series. His aggressive, nagging defense has been the ..."


Others...

Pippen in race with Jordan for MVP

Reiterating he's playing his last season with the Chicago Bulls, [Scottie Pippen] has the ability to wrest the NBA final most valuable player award away from [Michael Jordan], who's won it in each of the five previous championships he's played.

Bulls' Scottie Pippen, driving against Utah's Jeff Hornacek in Game 4, has been spectacular and dominant throughout the final series.


Pippen has earned MVP nod

Scottie Pippen has at least one vote for the National Basketball Association Finals' most valuable player award. Based on the way that he has led the Chicago Bulls' tenacious defense in the NBA Finals, he's likely to have quite a few more supporters when the ballots are handed out during Game 5.


People remember ''the shot'' but they don't remember that MJ was 15/41 in fourth quarters of that series. His play down the stretch and Pippen's defensive dominance was pushing the media to vote for Pippen, but people have short memories and when MJ hit ''the shot'' everyone immediately forgot about what Pip did defensively that series (really think they'd give Pippen the MVP after a MJ moment like that one?). Too bad for Scottie, after Bulls took the 3-1, everyone was leaning towards him for the MVP.




But yeah I'd say Scottie was slightly more valuable than the ball boy. :rolleyes:



And also, Pip was never a "Franchise Player" because he was brought to a team as support to the already existing "Franchise Player"

If the "Franchise Player" could win without the "sidekick" it would mean something but as Jordan as well many players have proved this cannot be done, aside from Hakeem, Duncan, and Barry.

[guy]

Im not implying Pippen should be ranked higher than Magic, but just because Magic is ranked higher than him, doesnt make him a better basketball player.

If you think Pippen is a better basketball player then Magic, then you should rank him higher. When people rank players its based on how great of a basketball player they were. So if you think Pippen is a better basketball player then Magic, why don't you rank him higher?

[LeBird]

Pippen is in danger of becoming so underrated that he becomes overrated.

Pippen was a great player; the problem is that in the top 20 there are players as deserving and many moreso of such a distinction.

[97 bulls]

If you think Pippen is a better basketball player then Magic, then you should rank him higher. When people rank players its based on how great of a basketball player they were. So if you think Pippen is a better basketball player then Magic, why don't you rank him higher?
Because those rankings are based on accomplishments. Not ability. To further prove my point. I remember a discussion in which a case was being made as to why Pippen deserved the mvp award in 94. And Oldschoolbasketball brought up a great point as to why Pippen didnt deserve the MVP. Most players dont win an MVP without being on a team with the top 3 record in basketball. Jordan did win in 88. And I remember the uproar when he did win it. The mindset was how valuable can he be if his team can only win 50 games? The Bulls were tied for fourth in 94 if i remember correct. He even went on to concede that had the Bulls the finished with the best record, Pippen wouldve deserved it. To bad he missed those ten games.


Either way, thats the criteria set for MVP award winners. Jordan didnt win the year he avgd almost 40 ppg because his team sucked. Same with Kobe iin 06. Or Wade in 09.

Does Magic win those MVPs if his teams hover around 500? I doubt it.

There is no resonable metric as to why Mutombo won the DPOY award over Pippen in 95. Other than politics. They were trying to build up Mutombo as the next Bill Russell. I feel Payton won it over Pippen in an effort to build up a possible finals match between the scoring leader in Jordan vs the DPOY in Payton.

[guy]

Not true as far as pace. Thats relative to the league pace of that particular year. Not historically.

The league as a whole is shooting less. How can that not matter? His usage went up to 27 in 94 compared to 24 in 92. But his shots stay the same? The numbers dont add up. Iif Pippen had a usg% of 27 in 94, his ppg would be roughly 25. And thats not counting the Fts lost due to less shots.

Youre a smart guy, do the math


And how is 19/8/6 a down season? Come on

What does it matter how the league's pace was, which wasn't that much lower anyway, if the Bulls pace itself wasn't that much lower? Bulls' pace in 92 was 94.4 while in 94 it was 91.9. It was 2.5 possessions less. Lets say they score in half of those possessions, and thats 2.5 more points. Since Pippen only scored about 22% of the team's points, we can say that the difference would contribute to about .56 more points. So we're talking about maybe his average going up to about 22.6 points. Thats not significant.

On top of that, you could easily argue that the decrease in pace had alot to do with the loss of Jordan who's superior scoring ability enabled the Bulls to get their scoring opportunities quicker, either from him creating his own offense or opening up opportunities for others, and transition opportunities due to his defense and ability to run the court (same thing goes for Pippen, but now it was only Pippen as opposed to the both of them). So just bringing up pace as if it had nothing to do with Jordan is very misleading.

[97 bulls]

So what's your point? MJ was more valuable and a better player than Pippen? No shit Sherlock.

Right, Pippen was worthless. A legit 20/10/10 threat every night with world class defense...such a dispensable side-kick.

'91 - 21/9/7/2, including 32/13/7/5 in the final game + great defense on Magic in some games (something Phil said "changed the fortunes of the team")
'92 - 21/8/8/2, including leading the famous run with Jordan on the bench to avoid a game 7
'93 - 21/9/8/2, including a triple double, and great defense yet again
'97 - 20/8/4/2, great defense yet again
'98 - Pippen led the Bulls to 3 of their wins in that series with arguably the GOAT defensive performance in a series for a perimeter player.

Lot of people even thought Pippen was deserving of the '98 Finals MVP.

Pippen's defense was the key in the series. Journalists who watched the series, watched Scottie single handedly shut down the Jazz knew what was up. When the Bulls had the 3-1 lead, Pippen averaging 20/7/4 while completely wrecking havoc on the Jazz offense seemed to be the favorite to win it but then Jordan hitting 'the shot' in the game 6 swung it away from him.

Here's the Chicago Tribune:


Daily Herald:



Others...





People remember ''the shot'' but they don't remember that MJ was 15/41 in fourth quarters of that series. His play down the stretch and Pippen's defensive dominance was pushing the media to vote for Pippen, but people have short memories and when MJ hit ''the shot'' everyone immediately forgot about what Pip did defensively that series (really think they'd give Pippen the MVP after a MJ moment like that one?). Too bad for Scottie, after Bulls took the 3-1, everyone was leaning towards him for the MVP.




But yeah I'd say Scottie was slightly more valuable than the ball boy. :rolleyes:




If the "Franchise Player" could win without the "sidekick" it would mean something but as Jordan as well many players have proved this cannot be done, aside from Hakeem, Duncan, and Barry.
Let me chime in on Duncan and Olajuwan.

Olajuwon is alwayss touted as winning without a great number two guy in 94. But after Seattle got eliminated by the Nuggets. His team was the best. The Knicks team the Rockets beat in 94 didnt have a great number two guy after Ewing. In fact, those two teams were extremely evenly matched


Duncan did have Robinson. Then Ginobli. Both will be going to the hall of fame.

[97 bulls]

What does it matter how the league's pace was, which wasn't that much lower anyway, if the Bulls pace itself wasn't that much lower? Bulls' pace in 92 was 94.4 while in 94 it was 91.9. It was 2.5 possessions less. Lets say they score in half of those possessions, and thats 2.5 more points. Since Pippen only scored about 22% of the team's points, we can say that the difference would contribute to about .56 more points. So we're talking about maybe his average going up to about 22.6 points. Thats not significant.

On top of that, you could easily argue that the decrease in pace had alot to do with the loss of Jordan who's superior scoring ability enabled the Bulls to get their scoring opportunities quicker, either from him creating his own offense or opening up opportunities for others, and transition opportunities due to his defense and ability to run the court (same thing goes for Pippen, but now it was only Pippen as opposed to the both of them). So just bringing up pace as if it had nothing to do with Jordan is very misleading.
I didnt bring up pace bro. Someone else did. I referred to shot attempts. And free throw attempts. The league as a whole shot more in 92 than 94. Is that attributed to Jordan?

[97 bulls]

Pippen is in danger of becoming so underrated that he becomes overrated.

Pippen was a great player; the problem is that in the top 20 there are players as deserving and many moreso of such a distinction.
Lol like who? Elgin Baylor? What did he win? Charles Barkley? In 12 years as the man, he won one MVP. Pippen almost did that in his one year. David Robinson? See Barkely. Dr. Js NBA career?

[guy]

Because those rankings are based on accomplishments. Not ability. To further prove my point. I remember a discussion in which a case was being made as to why Pippen deserved the mvp award in 94. And Oldschoolbasketball brought up a great point as to why Pippen didnt deserve the MVP. Most players dont win an MVP without being on a team with the top 3 record in basketball. Jordan did win in 88. And I remember the uproar when he did win it. The mindset was how valuable can he be if his team can only win 50 games? The Bulls were tied for fourth in 94 if i remember correct. He even went on to concede that had the Bulls the finished with the best record, Pippen wouldve deserved it. To bad he missed those ten games.


Either way, thats the criteria set for MVP award winners. Jordan didnt win the year he avgd almost 40 ppg because his team sucked. Same with Kobe iin 06. Or Wade in 09.

Does Magic win those MVPs if his teams hover around 500? I doubt it.

There is no resonable metric as to why Mutombo won the DPOY award over Pippen in 95. Other than politics. They were trying to build up Mutombo as the next Bill Russell. I feel Payton won it over Pippen in an effort to build up a possible finals match between the scoring leader in Jordan vs the DPOY in Payton.

Not really. It just so happens that the best players are the most accomplished, which in most cases is a causal relationship because basketball more then any other sport can be impacted by one player, not a coincidence or pure luck of being the right situation. If that were the case, Pippen would be ranked MUCH higher then he is because he is one of the most accomplished players ever. But thats not the case. Instead, players like West, Baylor, Oscar, Isiah, Malone, Barkley, KG, Dirk are all usually ranked higher then players like Pippen and Havlicek. In fact, there's really no reason why Russell wouldn't be the undisputed GOAT if it was just based on accomplishments and there's really no reason anyone would ever argue for Hakeem being over the likes of Shaq, Kobe, or Duncan. Its really mostly based on who people think are just better on average taking longevity into account (or rep in cases when people didn't see them play). So really, based on your opinions and the way most people judge players, you should have Pippen ranked over Magic.

[LeBird]

Lol like who? Elgin Baylor? What did he win? Charles Barkley? In 12 years as the man, he won one MVP. Pippen almost did that in his one year. David Robinson? See Barkely. Dr. Js NBA career?

Are you seriously saying Pippen was as good as Elgin Baylor? :roll:

All those players you just named are better too. This is getting a bit pathetic.

[guy]

I didnt bring up pace bro. Someone else did. I referred to shot attempts. And free throw attempts. The league as a whole shot more in 92 than 94. Is that attributed to Jordan?

You're bringing up pace when you argue that stats were inflated or deflated in one season compared to another. Anyway, that specific point of view is actually even worse. In 1992, the league shot 2.9 FGA and 0.1 FTA per game more then in 1994. And since you brought up assists and rebounds, it was only 0.1 APG and 0.7 RPG higher. There is literally no reason to suggest Pippen would've put up significantly higher stats if it was 92 instead of 94.

[DatAsh]

Great post.

Funny people call Pippen overrated when the opposite is true. Most decribe him as just a dispensable sidekick when he was so much more. 6'8" with a 7'2" wingspan, but he pretty much played point guard offensively, a great finisher, excellent basketball IQ, deadly in transition, good post up player, capable 3 point shooter, he could rebound as well as some power forwards and one of the rare perimeter players who could impact a game defensively like an elite defensive big man.

Some people claim (usually Jordan trolls) that he wasn't a true franchise player because he couldn't score enough, yet I'd take 20-22 ppg from Scottie along with his play making, facilitating, defense, rebounding and leadership over the extra 5 ppg and inferior all around game from many of the flashier perimeter players.

Also I could care less about rings as the "#1 scoring option". Just look at Scottie's Finals performances in 91', 92', 93', 97', and 98'. If he didn't perform at a high level (21/9/8, 21/9/7, 21/8/8 near triple double averages wrecked havoc on the Jazz offense, etc.) the Bulls would have lost. Scottie was a consistent winner. 16 straight years in the playoffs, 9 conference finals, 6 championships. His teams won 50+ practically every year and 59+ six times. Combining his winning and his defense, he is the greatest defensive small forward and arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever, I have him at top 20.

His All-NBA and All-Defense voting during his peak (94'-96') ranks tell the tale.

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd (behind MJ)
All-Defense voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

That is how good peak Pippen was.

Let's not beat around the bush. The main, and only reason you are so pro Pippen is because you're a Kobe fanatic attempting to diminish Jordan. Deny it all you want, but anyone who's read more than fifty of your posts knows that's true.

That aside, I agree with much of what you say, but overall your missing the point of the debate at hand. No one is arguing that Pippen wasn't a great player, he was, but realistically there are more than twenty players that were simply better than him. I see that you have Pippen in your top twenty. Who in the top twenty do you think Pippen was a better player than? What is your top twenty?

Do you realize that the person you quoted thinks that Pippen is a better player than Magic Johnson? Do you agree with that?

I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but recently Pippen has become perhaps the most overrated player on this site. Better than Magic Johnson? As good as Larry Bird? Top 20 of all time? Seriously? I have Pippen ranked 25-26 all time, and up until recently most people would probably say that 25-26 is overrating him, but just recently it's gotten ridiculous.

Kobe fanatics(Ne 1, Alpha Wolf, Kobe 123) are the ones spearheading this Pippen campaign in an attempt to somehow disparage Jordan. Driven by someone who actually knows what he's talking about but bears significant bias(97 Bulls) that Kobe led anti-Jordan campaign actually spirals into a legitimate recipe for disaster.

Also this notion of ranking one player over another simply because he had a better career is perhaps the silliest idea that gets consistently thrown about on this site. Rate players based on how good they were at basketball, not how well their basketball career turned out. A player's career is often indicative of that player's impact, but careers are simply a tool, along with stats, skills, impact, ect.. for evaluating a players net worth to a team. I don't rank Bill Russell above Kareem Abdul Jabbar just because he had a better career. I rank Bill Russell above Jabbar because I believe he was a better player. I believe that given similar situations, Russell would come out on top more often than Jabbar.


They were the same type of player bro. Whats with this "arbitrary" nonsense? Its not as if im comparing him to Shaq.

I used the word arbitrary because that's exactly what it is. It's a list that you came up with off the top of your head as a metric for evaluating the two players in question. I could very easily come up with a similar list that would favor Magic

Leadership

Ability to Run an offense

Ability to make teammates better

Passing

Fast Break

Play-making

Post play

Scoring

Rebounding

Defense

Both list would be equally arbitrary and therefore somewhat meaningless.

[97 bulls]

Not really. It just so happens that the best players are the most accomplished, which in most cases is a causal relationship because basketball more then any other sport can be impacted by one player, not a coincidence or pure luck of being the right situation. If that were the case, Pippen would be ranked MUCH higher then he is because he is one of the most accomplished players ever. But thats not the case. Instead, players like West, Baylor, Oscar, Isiah, Malone, Barkley, KG, Dirk are all usually ranked higher then players like Pippen and Havlicek. In fact, there's really no reason why Russell wouldn't be the undisputed GOAT if it was just based on accomplishments and there's really no reason anyone would ever argue for Hakeem being over the likes of Shaq, Kobe, or Duncan. Its really mostly based on who people think are just better on average taking longevity into account (or rep in cases when people didn't see them play). So really, based on your opinions and the way most people judge players, you should have Pippen ranked over Magic.
Lol its no coincidense that the players considered the best, had the best talent around them most of their career. Trying to dispute that is naive.

Its why players like Bird, Jordan, Bryant, even Pippen, can shoot bad in a series and their teams still win. Its called a luxory. Why do you think Kobe wanted to be traded? And James left the Cavs. Garnett was labeled a loser before joining the Celtics.

[AlphaWolf24]

Let's not beat around the bush. The main, and only reason you are so pro Pippen is because you're a Kobe fanatic attempting to diminish Jordan. Deny it all you want, but anyone who's read more than fifty of your posts knows that's true.

That aside, I agree with much of what you say, but overall your missing the point of the debate at hand. No one is arguing that Pippen wasn't a great player, he was, but realistically there are more than twenty players that were simply better than him. I see that you have Pippen in your top twenty. Who in the top twenty do you think Pippen was a better player than? What is your top twenty?

Do you realize that the person you quoted thinks that Pippen is a better player than Magic Johnson? Do you agree with that?

I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but recently Pippen has become perhaps the most overrated player on this site. Better than Magic Johnson? As good as Larry Bird? Top 20 of all time? Seriously? I have Pippen ranked 25-26 all time, and up until recently most people would probably say that 25-26 is overrating him, but just recently it's gotten ridiculous.

Kobe fanatics(Ne 1, Alpha Wolf, Kobe 123) are the ones spearheading this Pippen campaign in an attempt to somehow disparage Jordan. Driven by someone who actually knows what he's talking about but bears significant bias(97 Bulls) that Kobe led anti-Jordan campaign actually spirals into a legitimate recipe for disaster.

Also this notion of ranking one player over another simply because he had a better career is perhaps the silliest idea that gets consistently thrown about on this site. Rate players based on how good they were at basketball, not how well their basketball career turned out. A player's career is often indicative of that player's impact, but careers are simply a tool, along with stats, skills, impact, ect.. for evaluating a players net worth to a team. I don't rank Bill Russell above Kareem Abdul Jabbar just because he had a better career. I rank Bill Russell above Jabbar because I believe he was a better player. I believe that given similar situations, Russell would come out on top more often than Jabbar.



I used the word arbitrary because that's exactly what it is. It's a list that you came up with off the top of your head as a metric for evaluating the two players in question. I could very easily come up with a similar list that would favor Magic

Leadership

Ability to Run an offense

Ability to make teammates better

Passing

Fast Break

Play-making

Post play

Scoring

Rebounding

Defense

Both list would be equally arbitrary and therefore somewhat meaningless.


:lol this **** talking about me ( Thinking so highly of Pippen is a campain)..

- I was talking about the greatest players I watched since the early 80's...

- all I said was..'Pippen deserves to be viewed as one of the top 5 players of the 90's"

- I said he gets crimanally underrated by some who never watched him play.

- this has 0 to do with Mj you crazy ****..

[guy]

Lol its no coincidense that the players considered the best, had the best talent around them most of their career. Trying to dispute that is naive.

Its why players like Bird, Jordan, Bryant, even Pippen, can shoot bad in a series and their teams still win. Its called a luxory. Why do you think Kobe wanted to be traded? And James left the Cavs. Garnett was labeled a loser before joining the Celtics.

So you really think the success of players like Bird, Jordan, and Kobe was purely the result of dumb luck from being on the right team and had little to do with the player themself as if the makeup and success of that team had little to do with them in the first place? You think the difference in success between Bird and Nique, Jordan and Reggie, Kobe and Vince, Lebron and Melo had more to do with just their situation as opposed to them just being better?

KG is the only case where I think a really great player was severely limited from maximizing his legacy by his situations in which he is mostly blameless. Its very rare for a player not to get significant opportunities to contend since they can always leave thru FA or their GM isn't dumb enough to not be able to put a contender around him unless the player just doesn't last relatively long enough due to injury and durability issues.

If it was purely based on accomplishments, there wouldn't really be much difference between rankings, if any. It would be pretty simple. So if you think Pippen was better then Magic, you should just rank him higher and say he's a top 5-10 player of all-time (assuming thats around where you think Magic should rank.)

[DatAsh]

:lol this **** talking about me ( Thinking so highly of Pippen is a campain)..

- I was talking about the greatest players I watched since the early 80's...
No clue what you're referring to here. I was speaking of your post in general. You're constantly trying to disparage Jordan.

- all I said was..'Pippen deserves to be viewed as one of the top 5 players of the 90's"
If this is what you were referring to up above, then I agree.

- I said he gets crimanally underrated by some who never watched him play.
Again I agree, but saying he's better than someone like Elgin Baylor or Magic Johnson is doing the exact opposite and criminally overrating him.

- this has 0 to do with Mj you crazy ****..
Again, I wasn't referring to any one post of yours, just the nature of your post in general.

afds

[97 bulls]

Let's not beat around the bush. The main, and only reason you are so pro Pippen is because you're a Kobe fanatic attempting to diminish Jordan. Deny it all you want, but anyone who's read more than fifty of your posts knows that's true.

That aside, I agree with much of what you say, but overall your missing the point of the debate at hand. No one is arguing that Pippen wasn't a great player, he was, but realistically there are more than twenty players that were simply better than him. I see that you have Pippen in your top twenty. Who in the top twenty do you think Pippen was a better player than? What is your top twenty?

Do you realize that the person you quoted thinks that Pippen is a better player than Magic Johnson? Do you agree with that?

I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but recently Pippen has become perhaps the most overrated player on this site. Better than Magic Johnson? As good as Larry Bird? Top 20 of all time? Seriously? I have Pippen ranked 25-26 all time, and up until recently most people would probably say that 25-26 is overrating him, but just recently it's gotten ridiculous.

Kobe fanatics(Ne 1, Alpha Wolf, Kobe 123) are the ones spearheading this Pippen campaign in an attempt to somehow disparage Jordan. Driven by someone who actually knows what he's talking about but bears significant bias(97 Bulls) that Kobe led anti-Jordan campaign actually spirals into a legitimate recipe for disaster.

Also this notion of ranking one player over another simply because he had a better career is perhaps the silliest idea that gets consistently thrown about on this site. Rate players based on how good they were at basketball, not how well their basketball career turned out. A player's career is often indicative of that player's impact, but careers are simply a tool, along with stats, skills, impact, ect.. for evaluating a players net worth to a team. I don't rank Bill Russell above Kareem Abdul Jabbar just because he had a better career. I rank Bill Russell above Jabbar because I believe he was a better player. I believe that given similar situations, Russell would come out on top more often than Jabbar.



I used the word arbitrary because that's exactly what it is. It's a list that you came up with off the top of your head as a metric for evaluating the two players in question. I could very easily come up with a similar list that would favor Magic

Leadership

Ability to Run an offense

Ability to make teammates better

Passing

Fast Break

Play-making

Post play

Scoring

Rebounding

Defense

Both list would be equally arbitrary and therefore somewhat meaningless.
Its not arbitrary because as much as you want to deny it, they were the same type of player. The difference is Magic dominated with his teamplay. And Pippen his defense. The trump? Pippen was a damn good team player and Magic was a shitty defender.

I live in Los Angeles. Ive had this conversation with a few Magic fans. Magics defense was so bad theres just no fair measurement. Ive watched some of Magiics full games with a few people. And just point out the sheer and utter lack of motivation for the defensive side of the ball. My coach called him a pouter. Countless times, hed gamble on a pass, miss and just give up on the possesion. Watch that 91 finals. Sometimes he wasnt even in the camera paxson was so open. One of my friends thats a Magic fan even admitted he was selfish. Because of the predicament he would put the rest of the team in when he gave up on a possesion.

Fortunately he had so many great players on his team that those mishaps were covered.

[Ne 1]

:lol this **** talking about me ( Thinking so highly of Pippen is a campain)..

- I was talking about the greatest players I watched since the early 80's...

- all I said was..'Pippen deserves to be viewed as one of the top 5 players of the 90's"

- I said he gets crimanally underrated by some who never watched him play.

- this has 0 to do with Mj you crazy ****..


Yeah, somehow giving Pippen credit = diminish Jordan? Even though I have Jordan #2 on my all-time list and believe that there isn't much that separates Kareem, Jordan and Russell at the top and each have a case for being the GOAT.

If anything it's the Jordan trolls with an agenda/campaign that always feel the need to disparage Pippen. (Loki/OldchoolBasketball , Bruce Blitz, andgar, SoundWave, Calabis, Eric Forman, jstern, guy, Nevaeh, StarJordan etc.)

[AlphaWolf24]

afds


Disparge Jordan?...by constantley calling the best player??

I never said Pippen was better then Magic..

You are so sensitive about Mj...go play with your Space Jam doll.

[DatAsh]

Disparge Jordan?...by constantley calling the best player??

I never said Pippen was better then Magic..

You are so sensitive about Mj...go play with your Space Jam doll.


I won't argue with you about whether or not you try to disparage Jordan.

I never said that you said Pippen was better than Magic. 97 Bulls said that.

I'm actually a bigger fan of Pippen that I am of Jordan. Pippen's my third favorite player behind Russell and Olajuwon(I'm a sucker for great defense), but I do my best to keep my biases out of the picture when evaluating players.

[97 bulls]

So you really think the success of players like Bird, Jordan, and Kobe was purely the result of dumb luck from being on the right team and had little to do with the player themself as if the makeup and success of that team had little to do with them in the first place? You think the difference in success between Bird and Nique, Jordan and Reggie, Kobe and Vince, Lebron and Melo had more to do with just their situation as opposed to them just being better?

KG is the only case where I think a really great player was severely limited from maximizing his legacy by his situations in which he is mostly blameless. Its very rare for a player not to get significant opportunities to contend since they can always leave thru FA or their GM isn't dumb enough to not be able to put a contender around him unless the player just doesn't last relatively long enough due to injury and durability issues.
Yes. Thats sports bro. As tailbacks. Is Emmit Smith really better than Barry Sanders? Is Joe Montana really better than Dan Marino? Not saying the players you listed arent great. But you must qualify their situation.

The funny thing is. Ive seen you post that the only reason Jordan didnt win in the 80s, is due to insufficient support. I was right with you. We both remember the Bulls getting their ass kicked by better teams. Why does that rule only apply to certain players?


And Im not talking about Brian Scalibrine type players. But yes. The Reggie Millers, Malones, Wilkins, Wests. Whoever. What seperates them from the "elite" is their lack of a great team. Or the best team.

Give an example of a team that won without having great support. The only one that comes close is Dallas. And they had the better coach and bench.

Or better yet. How many players have had the best talent for more than a few years and didnt manage to break through and win at least one?

[Ne 1]

Disparge Jordan?...by constantley calling the best player??

I never said Pippen was better then Magic..

You are so sensitive about Mj...go play with your Space Jam doll.

http://foto.krabjiem.lv/files/posts2/48970/rs_700/3.jpg

[Hands of Iron]

Lol its no coincidense that the players considered the best, had the best talent around them most of their career. Trying to dispute that is naive.

Its why players like Bird, Jordan, Bryant, even Pippen, can shoot bad in a series and their teams still win. Its called a luxory. Why do you think Kobe wanted to be traded? And James left the Cavs. Garnett was labeled a loser before joining the Celtics.

http://nbaat90s.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/hakeem-olajuwon.jpg

[97 bulls]

I won't argue with you about whether or not you try to disparage Jordan.

I never said that you said Pippen was better than Magic. 97 Bulls said that.

I'm actually a bigger fan of Pippen that I am of Jordan. Pippen's my third favorite player behind Russell and Olajuwon(I'm a sucker for great defense), but I do my best to keep my biases out of the picture when evaluating players.
Youre not doing a good job. Youre using the same rhetoric that the Jordanaires use.

At some point you just have to come to grips with the fact that Pippen was much better than you and a few others give him credit for. It doesnt knock Jordan. Hes the greatest ever in my opinion. But its no coincidence that the Bulls were as dominant as they were. 72 wins? 55 without MJ in 94? They were a great team. Led by two franchise players.

[Hands of Iron]

Anybody reckon Olajuwon could shoot 40% in a playoff series at any point between 1987-96 and get away with it? Not on your god damn life.

[97 bulls]

http://nbaat90s.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/hakeem-olajuwon.jpg
I already addressed this. Who was the other great player next to Ewing in 94? Remove Ewing and Olajuwan and i still feel the Rockets beat the Knicks.

In 95, the Rockets made that late season trade for Drexler.

[Hands of Iron]

I already addressed this. Who was the other great player next to Ewing in 94? Remove Ewing and Olajuwan and i still feel the Rockets beat the Knicks.

In 95, the Rockets made that late season trade for Drexler.

Yeah, you feel a lot of things.

They wouldn't of even been in the playoffs without Olajuwon. But yeah, Vernon Maxwell 13.8 ppg on 37% throughout the playoffs is the GOAT 2nd option. He only completely quit on the team the following season.

Having '95 Drexler makes it no less impressive. They gave up Thorpe before seeing the likes of Malone and Barkley on the 60-win Jazz and 59-win Suns before facing Robinson/Rodman and the 62-win Spurs. That's only the Western Conference and the top 3 seeds.

[LeBird]

I won't argue with you about whether or not you try to disparage Jordan.

I never said that you said Pippen was better than Magic. 97 Bulls said that.

I'm actually a bigger fan of Pippen that I am of Jordan. Pippen's my third favorite player behind Russell and Olajuwon(I'm a sucker for great defense), but I do my best to keep my biases out of the picture when evaluating players.

Yeah, Pippen is one of my favourite players too.

My starting 5 for my favourites would probably be:

Shaq
Bird
Lebron
Pippen
Magic

[97 bulls]

And let me state something else.....

You guys getting on NE1, Alpha and co. The "Kobe" fans. You have noone to blame but yourselves. You guys began this nonsense that championships only count if they were won as the best player. I dont remember that logic being applied to Worthy, Magic pre 85, Jabaar in 87 on, Mchale, Parrish, Big 0, Erving, Hondo, Cousey. Even Pippen. Until Kobe began being compared to Jordan during the Lakers first threepeat. All I hear was Kobe had Shaq. And while thats true. Its also true that Jordan had Pippen and Rodman.

You guys created this notion of diminishing a players support to prop Jordan. Not Kobe fans.


Like I stated before. You guys created this monster in an effort to protect your saviors legacy in Jordan. You have noone to blame but yourselves.

[Bigsmoke]

97 Bulls thinks Ron Harper is better than Jason Kidd and Luc Longley would be a top 5 center in the NBA today.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, you feel a lot of things.

They wouldn't of even been in the playoffs without Olajuwon. But yeah, Vernon Maxwell 13.8 ppg on 37% throughout the playoffs is the GOAT 2nd option. He only completely quit on the team the following season.

Having '95 Drexler makes it no less impressive. They gave up Thorpe before seeing the likes of Malone and Barkley on the 60-win Jazz and 59-win Suns before facing Robinson/Rodman and the 62-win Spurs. That's only the Western Conference and the top 3 seeds.
What are you talking about? First. The Rockets won based on their defense. Throw out stats and who was had a bad series. The Rockets and Knicks were the exact same team.

Thorpe/Oakley
Maxwell/Starks
Smith/Harper
Horry/Smith

Tomjonovich/Riley

The 95 Rockets losst Thorpe but gained Drexler and Cassel matured. I think with a full year with Drexler theyd won close to 60 games.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls thinks Ron Harper is better than Jason Kidd and Luc Longley would be a top 5 center in the NBA today.
Get the **** outta here. Youre the biggest joke on this site. When you first came here you were a Bulls fan. Then Laker, Heat, then Thunder, you shouldvve been banned a long time ago

[Hands of Iron]

What are you talking about? First. The Rockets won based on their defense. Throw out stats and who was had a bad series. The Rockets and Knicks were the exact same team.

Thorpe/Oakley
Maxwell/Starks
Smith/Harper
Horry/Smith

Tomjonovich/Riley

The 95 Rockets losst Thorpe but gained Drexler and Cassel matured. I think with a full year with Drexler theyd won close to 60 games.

Anchored by who? The best defensive player in the game, Olajuwon? or has Scottie now surpassed Hakeem on the ATG Defender Rankings? They won based on their defense, anchored by Olajuwon and their half-court offense which ran through Olajuwon. GTFO trying to bring the same type of debate you use to disparage the hell out of Magic, Bird and Jordan. Olajuwon's 'support' doesn't come remotely close, and that's when he won. It's also why he won less.

[Bigsmoke]

Get the **** outta here. Youre the biggest joke on this site. When you first came here you were a Bulls fan. Then Laker, Heat, then Thunder, you shouldvve been banned a long time ago

I like the Heat. :confusedshrug:

When did i said i liked the Lakers?

i hated them since i was in grade school.

Thunder are aight.

[LeBird]

Gotta wonder with the criteria 97 Bulls has for rating Pippen so highly, then shouldn't Olajuwon be his GOAT or in the consideration?

[guy]

Yes. Thats sports bro. As tailbacks. Is Emmit Smith really better than Barry Sanders? Is Joe Montana really better than Dan Marino? Not saying the players you listed arent great. But you must qualify their situation.

The funny thing is. Ive seen you post that the only reason Jordan didnt win in the 80s, is due to insufficient support. I was right with you. We both remember the Bulls getting their ass kicked by better teams. Why does that rule only apply to certain players?


And Im not talking about Brian Scalibrine type players. But yes. The Reggie Millers, Malones, Wilkins, Wests. Whoever. What seperates them from the "elite" is their lack of a great team. Or the best team.

Give an example of a team that won without having great support. The only one that comes close is Dallas. And they had the better coach and bench.

Or better yet. How many players have had the best talent for more than a few years and didnt manage to break through and win at least one?

Like I said, in basketball one player has so much impact. Football is a completely different sport. Its not a coincidence that in the NFL you rarely ever see a team have anywhere near the stretches of dominance teams in the NBA have.

I didn't say a player has good enough support every year due to just how great they are. I said its incredibly rare that a great player who has a long lasting career doesn't have good enough help around him for somewhat of a significant portion of his career and thus the chance to prove himself, and thats mainly due to FA, trade demands, and just the fact that if a player is that good GMs usually aren't dumb enough to not be able to get enough support for that player and/or that player is good enough to maximize his teammates abilities and the team's chemistry, which is what happened with Jordan. He didn't have that for half of his career but had it for the other half. It was bad luck that he didn't have it for that first half, but he was too good for it to never happen at all.

You're incredibly overrating the sh*t out of players like Nique, Reggie, and Malone if you think that the only reason they didn't win was cause of their teams. You're disregarding how Nique and Reggie are relatively one-dimensional as far as how they can effect the game, which is basically by almost nothing but scoring and weren't consistent enough in that aspect to compensate for that, and how Malone was very poor down the stretch of games. Thats the biggest reason they didn't win series' over teams led by BETTER players and not cause of anything else. They were in plenty of series that ended up being close enough that if they had those extra attributes they were lacking then history is completely different. You're talking about players like Nique and Reggie who literally one year could lead a team to being a serious threat and then the very next year not be able lead more or less the very same team to .500.

Dallas is a great example you bring up. Dirk actually did have great support that year. But part of the reason its considered great support is cause Dirk's style of play can fit alot better with different groups of talent then another PF like Amare or Bosh. Dirk can still drop 30 without dominating the ball or needing an elite PG constantly feed him, enabling much better ball movement and teammates to get into much better rhythm. That team with someone like Amare in its place is probably out in the first round.

Teams like that don't really exist because they usually get broken up or majorly tweaked sooner rather then later if they fail to win it all. In general, the whole "supporting cast" argument is overrated in general cause like I've said before, the perception of how good a supporting cast is is so much a function of their star player. I'll say teams in the 90s like the Knicks, Blazers, Suns, Jazz, and Pacers would've definitely won more if they were able to trade Ewing, Drexler, Barkley, Malone, or Miller for Jordan or Hakeem and make moves for whatever positional differences i.e. if the Jazz had Jordan instead of Malone they probably would trade Hornacek for a similar level-PF, say Horace Grant for example. And I actually think in all of the cases where the Bulls or Rockets played those teams in a tight series, the outcome would've been reversed if the best players switched teams along with making moves for positional differences.

[Hands of Iron]

Gotta wonder with the criteria 97 Bulls has for rating Pippen so highly, then shouldn't Olajuwon be his GOAT or in the consideration?

Some maddening shit going on here. Not even Olajuwon is safe from 97's ill advised wrath. :lol

In the playoffs, He was the No. 1 option/best scorer/go-to player, the defensive anchor and by far best defender, best rebounder and shotblocker on both of those championship teams. He even led them in assists. For 1994, he's essentially touting a group of hard nosed role players who could hit open jump shots (and why were they open, by the way?) as superior talent of a supporting cast.

:wtf:

[Hands of Iron]

Olajuwon dominating a basketball game without having a high scoring night. And you better believe Houston was Screwed Beyond Belief (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E) here.

[97 bulls]

Gotta wonder with the criteria 97 Bulls has for rating Pippen so highly, then shouldn't Olajuwon be his GOAT or in the consideration?
Id take Olajuwon over any other center ive ever seen. Even over Russell and Wilt.

[Hands of Iron]

Id take Olajuwon over any other center ive ever seen. Even over Russell and Wilt.

Well, that is honestly a relief. I'd encourage you to click on that link above too. It's a recap of Game 7 vs SEA in 1993, the one in which the referees blew three critical calls late and focuses almost entirely on Olajuwon's defensive impact, aside from hitting some tremendously difficult shots when the Rockets needed them, crashing the boards and delivering crisp passes out of double teams to the open man.

He would've kicked Barkley's ass AGAIN in '93 too, by the way. :lol

[Legends66NBA7]

Are you seriously saying Pippen was as good as Elgin Baylor?

This is actually an interesting debate for me, skill wise.

Relative to era, it's obviously Baylor.

I'd actually like other posters to chime in about this...

[Nevaeh]

And let me state something else.....

You guys getting on NE1, Alpha and co. The "Kobe" fans. You have noone to blame but yourselves. You guys began this nonsense that championships only count if they were won as the best player. I dont remember that logic being applied to Worthy, Magic pre 85, Jabaar in 87 on, Mchale, Parrish, Big 0, Erving, Hondo, Cousey. Even Pippen. Until Kobe began being compared to Jordan during the Lakers first threepeat. All I hear was Kobe had Shaq. And while thats true. Its also true that Jordan had Pippen and Rodman.

You guys created this notion of diminishing a players support to prop Jordan. Not Kobe fans.


Like I stated before. You guys created this monster in an effort to protect your saviors legacy in Jordan. You have noone to blame but yourselves.

Dude, don't blame Jordan fans for those Posters' ignorance. They were gonna be idiots whether Jordan fans existed or not. They just look like bigger idiots for trying to compare lesser players to Jordan. Are you now gonna blame Jordan fans for your believing that Pip and Magic are on the same level? That's all on you, Bra.
:oldlol:

And yes, the standard still stands. The best Player on a team will receive the bulk of the credit for a team's success. You don't have a problem sucking off to 94 Pip do you? Well how come you aren't giving BJ the credit he richly deserves for that season huh? What about Grant? was he just some "disposable sidekick" in your eyes? All I ever hear from you when discussing that season is "Pip, Pip, PIP"!!

[Hands of Iron]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nevaeh again.

[DatAsh]

Youre not doing a good job. Youre using the same rhetoric that the Jordanaires use.

At some point you just have to come to grips with the fact that Pippen was much better than you and a few others give him credit for. It doesnt knock Jordan. Hes the greatest ever in my opinion. But its no coincidence that the Bulls were as dominant as they were. 72 wins? 55 without MJ in 94? They were a great team. Led by two franchise players.

So because I don't think that Pippen was one of the twenty best players ever(I have him at 25) I'm being biased? The vast majority of the people on this site don't have Pippen in their top 20. Are they all biased?

Or is it the fact that I think Magic Johnson was a better basketball player than Scottie Pippen that makes me biased?

Get real.

[DatAsh]

And let me state something else.....

You guys getting on NE1, Alpha and co. The "Kobe" fans. You have noone to blame but yourselves. You guys began this nonsense that championships only count if they were won as the best player. I dont remember that logic being applied to Worthy, Magic pre 85, Jabaar in 87 on, Mchale, Parrish, Big 0, Erving, Hondo, Cousey. Even Pippen. Until Kobe began being compared to Jordan during the Lakers first threepeat. All I hear was Kobe had Shaq. And while thats true. Its also true that Jordan had Pippen and Rodman.

You guys created this notion of diminishing a players support to prop Jordan. Not Kobe fans.


Like I stated before. You guys created this monster in an effort to protect your saviors legacy in Jordan. You have noone to blame but yourselves.

Since I'm the only one that's really called out the Kobe fans in this thread, you must be referring to me. I've never set out to diminish Jordan's supporting cast, and I've always held Pippen and Rodman in high regard, and posted as such.

Just because I don't think Pippen is one of the twenty greatest players ever means I'm trying to diminish Pippen. I'm just telling it how it is.

[Nevaeh]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nevaeh again.

:cheers:

What's funny is I really like 97 as a poster. And he's always showed me respect as well. But when your younger brother's being a clown ya gotta let him know, man. Kinda like MJ did Pip during that "Migraine headache" game..OOOOHhhh, Ok Ok I'm done. Sorry, just couldn't resist 97

:oldlol: .

[Hands of Iron]

:cheers:

What's funny is I really like 97 as a poster. And he's always showed me respect as well. But when your younger brother's being a clown ya gotta let him know, man. Kinda like MJ did Pip during that "Migraine headache" game..OOOOHhhh, Ok Ok I'm done. Sorry, just couldn't resist 97

:oldlol: .

Yeah, I've never had a problem with him either, but the Olajuwon stuff struck a nerve. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Olajuwon's team was shit, period. I'm talking in comparative terms to other top 10-15 caliber players on championship teams because for christ sakes, it's the truth. Duncan in 2003 also comes to mind. People will mention Dirk 2011 but Olajuwon/Duncan served as the anchor/best defensive player on their teams in addition to carrying the offensive load.

[97 bulls]

Like I said, in basketball one player has so much impact. Football is a completely different sport. Its not a coincidence that in the NFL you rarely ever see a team have anywhere near the stretches of dominance teams in the NBA have.
Thats because of parity. But even thats not necessarily true. The Patriots have dominated the league for a while now. I cant say youre wrong about how much impact one player can have on a team. But I credit chemistry too. Wilt and Jordan are the two most dominant forces basketball has seen. Neiither won umtil thhey got help.


I didn't say a player has good enough support every year due to just how great they are. I said its incredibly rare that a great player who has a long lasting career doesn't have good enough help around him for somewhat of a significant portion of his career and thus the chance to prove himself, and thats mainly due to FA, trade demands, and just the fact that if a player is that good GMs usually aren't dumb enough to not be able to get enough support for that player and/or that player is good enough to maximize his teammates abilities and the team's chemistry, which is what happened with Jordan. He didn't have that for half of his career but had it for the other half. It was bad luck that he didn't have it for that first half, but he was too good for it to never happen at all.
I still say none of those guys legitimately walked into a season as the clear cut best team in the league. Sure they had good teams. Some even very good. But never the best. Or rarely. When compared to Russell, Jordan, Magic, and Bird.


You're incredibly overrating the sh*t out of players like Nique, Reggie, and Malone if you think that the only reason they didn't win was cause of their teams. You're disregarding how Nique and Reggie are relatively one-dimensional as far as how they can effect the game, which is basically by almost nothing but scoring and weren't consistent enough in that aspect to compensate for that, and how Malone was very poor down the stretch of games. Thats the biggest reason they didn't win series' over teams led by BETTER players and not cause of anything else. They were in plenty of series that ended up being close enough that if they had those extra attributes they were lacking then history is completely different. You're talking about players like Nique and Reggie who literally one year could lead a team to being a serious threat and then the very next year not be able lead more or less the very same team to .500.
I guess were just gonna have to disagree. I asked you to produce a season in which any of those players had the best team and you couldnt. But still stand by your claim. My point is this. Its a luxory when you can have on a bad shooting sseries and still win comfortably. In Jordans case, its even more of a luxory when he and Pippen can not play up to their normall standards and still dominate a championship over a damn good team like the Sonics.

Dallas is a great example you bring up. Dirk actually did have great support that year. But part of the reason its considered great support is cause Dirk's style of play can fit alot better with different groups of talent then another PF like Amare or Bosh. Dirk can still drop 30 without dominating the ball or needing an elite PG constantly feed him, enabling much better ball movement and teammates to get into much better rhythm. That team with someone like Amare in its place is probably out in the first round.
Dirk is just as one diminsional as the players I mentioned. What did he do besides score? His defense is subpar, hes not much of a rebounder. But thaat team was well coached, and had an excellent defense.


Teams like that don't really exist because they usually get broken up or majorly tweaked sooner rather then later if they fail to win it all. In general, the whole "supporting cast" argument is overrated in general cause like I've said before, the perception of how good a supporting cast is is so much a function of their star player.
But those players dont win without the supporting cast bro. Thats what you and everyone else fail to see. The examples are there. The greatest players the league has ever seen didnt get it done until their "supportin casts" came around. Talk about the writing being on the wall.

I'll say teams in the 90s like the Knicks, Blazers, Suns, Jazz, and Pacers would've definitely won more if they were able to trade Ewing, Drexler, Barkley, Malone, or Miller for Jordan or Hakeem and make moves for whatever positional differences i.e. if the Jazz had Jordan instead of Malone they probably would trade Hornacek for a similar level-PF, say Horace Grant for example. And I actually think in all of the cases where the Bulls or Rockets played those teams in a tight series, the outcome would've been reversed if the best players switched teams along with making moves for positional differences.
You dont even have to guess. The Knicks could barely beat the Bulls without Jordan. They needed ref help. Most people feel if the Bulls get past the Knicks (myself included) they beat the Pacers before bowing out to the Rockets. As much as you dont want to admit. None of those teams had the resources to beat the Bulls. We saw that in 94 when the Knicks needed seven games and a bad call to beat the Bulls without Jordan. If the Knicks were to replace Starks with Miller, they might beat the Bulls. And thats not guaranteed. If the Pacers replaced Derrick Mckey with Wilkins. Then they have a shot. If the Jazz replaced Ostertag with Ewing. If the Suns could replace Majrle Miller. Or the Blazers couldve added Barkley. Those are the kind of teams needed and they didnt have it. Like I said the writings on the wall these teams had problems with the Bulls without Jordan. I cant stress that enough. The Blazers coughed up a 15 point lead in the fourth quarter with Jordan on the bench. The proof is there. Im not just throwing stuff out there. The Bulls had one of the best records in the league with Pippen missing half the season. And they said they were PACING themselves. They werent going full bore. WTF!!!

It seems to me the difference is in philosophy. Jordans Bulls, Magics Lakers, Birds Celtics had guys good enough to dominate games on their own. Even win series on their own. I dont feel we should penalize these players for not being blessed with the same privledge

[97 bulls]

:cheers:

What's funny is I really like 97 as a poster. And he's always showed me respect as well. But when your younger brother's being a clown ya gotta let him know, man. Kinda like MJ did Pip during that "Migraine headache" game..OOOOHhhh, Ok Ok I'm done. Sorry, just couldn't resist 97

:oldlol: .
Lol ouch.

[Young X]

97 bulls, which players do you consider to be better than Pippen?

[DatAsh]

:cheers:

What's funny is I really like 97 as a poster. And he's always showed me respect as well. But when your younger brother's being a clown ya gotta let him know, man. Kinda like MJ did Pip during that "Migraine headache" game..OOOOHhhh, Ok Ok I'm done. Sorry, just couldn't resist 97

:oldlol: .

I feel the same way. I'll even take it a step further by saying he's generally one of my favorite on this site. He and DARealist are my two favorite Bulls posters. He knows what he's talking about when it comes to those Bulls teams, and I love how he backs up Pippen and Rodman against the Jordan fanatics whose sole purpose is to diminish those guys in an attempt to prop up Jordan.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, I've never had a problem with him either, but the Olajuwon stuff struck a nerve. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Olajuwon's team was shit, period. I'm talking in comparative terms to other top 10-15 caliber players on championship teams because for christ sakes, it's the truth. Duncan in 2003 also comes to mind. People will mention Dirk 2011 but Olajuwon/Duncan served as the anchor/best defensive player on their teams in addition to carrying the offensive load.
Fortunately for Olajuwon. His Rockets didnt have to play those other great championship teams.

Dont get me wrong. As far as talent. Id take olajuwon over every other center to ever play. But the Knicks team the Rockets beat in 94 werent quit as good as they were on paper. Theyre close. But the Rockets were slightly better. Even if you remove both Ewing and Olajuwon. How thats misunderstood is beyond me

[Nevaeh]

I feel the same way. I'll even take it a step further by saying he's generally one of my favorite on this site. He and DARealist are my two favorite Bulls posters. He knows what he's talking about when it comes to those Bulls teams, and I love how he backs up Pippen and Rodman against the Jordan fanatics whose sole purpose is to diminish those guys in an attempt to prop up Jordan.

I honestly haven't been seeing where Pip gets diminished though, especially in the context of discussing Top 20 Players. 97 was the only Poster who kinda nudged towards this agenda recently. Then Kobe Stans, licking their chops and going for any angle they can use to bring Jordan down, started jumping on the bandwagon.

None of those clowns are fooling the veteran Posters here, who know their post history of trying to prop up Jordan's teammates to levels even non-Bulls fans know they had never achieved during their careers.

They do this every season though; exhaust all attempts to bring MJ down, fall flat on their face, disappear for months (like NE1 did), then emerge as a "more mature" poster, who's understanding of the game has evolved, because they now use tons of paragraphs and quotes now to bring MJ down, and not just one-liners anymore.

They're clowns. Except now some of them have become "Jlauber Wannabe" clowns,
:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

97 bulls, which players do you consider to be better than Pippen?
Lol. Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, James, Jabaar, Wilt, Duncan to name a few.

[Hands of Iron]

Fortunately for Olajuwon. His Rockets didnt have to play those other great championship teams.

Well yeah, it goes back to: He had less support. Olajuwon's individual impact is as great as anybody. It takes a team to win championships and the Rockets weren't stellar, weren't amongst the all-time great teams. They did have a certain grittiness and will to win, however.


Dont get me wrong. As far as talent. Id take olajuwon over every other center to ever play. But the Knicks team the Rockets beat in 94 werent quit as good as they were on paper. Theyre close. But the Rockets were slightly better. Even if you remove both Ewing and Olajuwon. How thats misunderstood is beyond me

Okay, that's the second time you've said that and it's killing my desire to have any type of argument. :lol Take them both off and who knows what the hell happens other than that neither would be in the Finals. When they both played, the Rockets were still taken to the brink. It can't be forgotten how much Olajuwon thoroughly outplayed Patrick in that series, holding him to abysmal efficiency rates throughout most while faring much better dealing with him on offense along with physical guys like Oakley and Mason in the frontcourt.

[fpliii]

These are the only players I can definitively put ahead of Pippen:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Moses Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Jerry West

I don't have him at 16 right now (then again, I don't have any current rankings), but other than the above, are there any guys we can say DEFINITELY were better?

Pippen's teams had the following defensive ranks:

88 - 3/23
89 - 11/25
90 - 19/27
91 - 7/27
92 - 4/27
93 - 7/27
94 - 6/27
95 - 2/27
96 - 1/29
97 - 4/29
98 - 3/29
99 - 15/29
00 - 5/29
01 - 9/29
02 - 13/29
03 - 13/29
04 - 16/29

the bolded years I'd are those I'd argue as being seasons during which he played at a high level. Those teams might just seem to have had good to borderline great defenses, but how many actually had bigs as defensive anchors? Pip played with some elite man defenders and help defenders on the outside, but how many bigs were there covering the paint?

I think a big problem (not with the people in this thread per se, but in general) is that defense is see as a singular skill as opposed to a separate phase of the game entirely from offense (rebounding as well in my personal opinion, but that's not terribly important). How many facets are there to an offensive game? Let's just list volume scoring, true shooting, passing, shot selection/efficiency for now. What about man perimeter defense, help defense, man post defense, and anchoring a defense in the post? BBIQ/athleticism/court vision/hustle and whatever else impact both ends of the court.

The object of the game is to score more points than your opponent. Let's rearrange these words: score points, more than your opponent. That is, if you score all the points in the world, it means nothing if the opposition scores more at the end of the day. Thus, shouldn't counters to your opponent's offensive capabilities mean as much as the abilities themselves?

If you buy this, then tell me who other than the 15 guys I named above DEFINITIVELY meant as much to his team as Scottie. I just don't see it.

[DatAsh]

These are the only players I can definitively put ahead of Pippen:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Julius Erving
LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Moses Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Jerry West

I don't have him at 16 right now (then again, I don't have any current rankings), but other than the above, are there any guys we can say DEFINITELY were better?

Pippen's teams had the following defensive ranks:

88 - 3/23
89 - 11/25
90 - 19/27
91 - 7/27
92 - 4/27
93 - 7/27
94 - 6/27
95 - 2/27
96 - 1/29
97 - 4/29
98 - 3/29
99 - 15/29
00 - 5/29
01 - 9/29
02 - 13/29
03 - 13/29
04 - 16/29

the bolded years I'd are those I'd argue as being seasons during which he played at a high level. Those teams might just seem to have had good to borderline great defenses, but how many actually had bigs as defensive anchors? Pip played with some elite man defenders and help defenders on the outside, but how many bigs were there covering the paint?

I think a big problem (not with the people in this thread per se, but in general) is that defense is see as a singular skill as opposed to a separate phase of the game entirely from offense (rebounding as well in my personal opinion, but that's not terribly important). How many facets are there to an offensive game? Let's just list volume scoring, true shooting, passing, shot selection/efficiency for now. What about man perimeter defense, help defense, man post defense, and anchoring a defense in the post? BBIQ/athleticism/court vision/hustle and whatever else impact both ends of the court.

The object of the game is to score more points than your opponent. Let's rearrange these words: score points, more than your opponent. That is, if you score all the points in the world, it means nothing if the opposition scores more at the end of the day. Thus, shouldn't counters to your opponent's offensive capabilities mean as much as the abilities themselves?

If you buy this, then tell me who other than the 15 guys I named above DEFINITIVELY meant as much to his team as Scottie. I just don't see it.


I'd say to add to that list

Players for which I don't see any case for Pippen being the better player

George Mikan
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor

Players that I consider to have a clear edge, but for which there is at least an argument

David Robinson (Much better scorer, much better rebounder, better defender)
Charles Barkley (Much better scorer, much better rebounder)
Kevin Garnett(Slightly better scorer, much better rebounder, better defender)
Karl Malone(Much better scorer, much better rebounder)


Players that I consider to be slightly better, but for which Pippen has a strong case over

Patrick Ewing
Bob Cousy

Players that some poster might see as better, but I don't

Rick Barry
John Stockton
Walt Frazier
Clyde Drexler
Bill Walton

[Hands of Iron]

I think a big problem (not with the people in this thread per se, but in general) is that defense is see as a singular skill as opposed to a separate phase of the game entirely from offense (rebounding as well in my personal opinion, but that's not terribly important). How many facets are there to an offensive game? Let's just list volume scoring, true shooting, passing, shot selection/efficiency for now. What about man perimeter defense, help defense, man post defense, and anchoring a defense in the post? BBIQ/athleticism/court vision/hustle and whatever else impact both ends of the court.

The object of the game is to score more points than your opponent. Let's rearrange these words: score points, more than your opponent. That is, if you score all the points in the world, it means nothing if the opposition scores more at the end of the day. Thus, shouldn't counters to your opponent's offensive capabilities mean as much as the abilities themselves?.

Well... this is exactly why I think the triumvirate of Shaq/Olajuwon/Duncan may be underrated. They're automatically relegated to the bottom half it seems without the thought of even putting forth an argument. I've often seen people say, when discussing Bill Russell's offense that "it wasn't that bad" and cite a game or two he scored 30 or with Magic and Bird's defense "they were above average" -- Hey, that's great. But we're actually looking for Phenomenal over 'Not that Bad' and All Time Great over 'Above Average'. It's very difficult for me to believe that Russell was so much greater defensively that not only does it completely override those guys' defense, but it also matches and surpasses their immense offensive capabilities. It's hard to believe that Bird and Magic were so much greater offensively that not only does it completely overide those guys' offense, but it also matches and surpasses their immense defensive capabilities. If I didn't know any better, that looks like somebody trying to pull a Fast One.

[unbreakable]

Scottie Pippen has an argument for greatest SF of all time with Bird and Lebron

[fpliii]

I'd say to add to that list

Players for which I don't see any case for Pippen being the better player

George Mikan
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor

Players that I consider to have a clear edge, but for which there is at least an argument

David Robinson (Much better scorer, much better rebounder, better defender)
Charles Barkley (Much better scorer, much better rebounder)
Kevin Garnett(Slightly better scorer, much better rebounder, better defender)
Karl Malone(Much better scorer, much better rebounder)


Players that I consider to be slightly better, but for which Pippen has a strong case over

Patrick Ewing
Bob Cousy

Players that some poster might see as better, but I don't

Rick Barry
John Stockton
Walt Frazier
Clyde Drexler
Bill Walton

I have no problem with any of this. I take some exception to Mikan being listed since I really don't think much of the game before the shot clock was introduced (he's the one top 35-30 guy who I don't think would succeed today), but have no problem with those who don't fault him as he could only play the game as was available during his time. I put Baylor, Havlicek, Pippen, KG in the same tier. Robinson is close behind them in my book, Barkley is a little further back (lack of defense), and Malone is still further back (lack of defense, interdependence with Stockton).



Well... this is exactly why I think the triumvirate of Shaq/Olajuwon/Duncan may be underrated. They're automatically relegated to the bottom half it seems without the thought of even putting forth an argument. I've often seen people say, when discussing Bill Russell's offense that "it wasn't that bad" and cite a game or two he scored 30 or with Magic and Bird's defense "they were above average" -- Hey, that's great. But we're actually looking for Phenomenal over 'Not that Bad' and All Time Great over 'Above Average'. It's very difficult for me to believe that Russell was so much greater defensively that not only does it completely override those guys' defense, but it also matches and surpasses their immense offensive capabilities. It's hard to believe that Bird and Magic were so much greater offensively that not only does it completely overide those guys' offense, but it also matches and surpasses their immense defensive capabilities. If I didn't know any better, that looks like somebody trying to pull a Fast One.

I agree entirely regarding the three bigs. Not that it's relevant here, but my 3 co-GOATs are Russell/Jordan/Magic (the greatest defensive player, the best two-way player, and the greatest offensive player). Bird is slightly lower since I don't know how to reconcile the two phases of his career (before and after McHale became a featured star on those teams), as he played a lot more in the post earlier. His peak (when he won the back-to-back-to-back MVPs) is among the top 5 in league history in my book (with Sixers Wilt, Bucks Kareem, threepeat Shaq, Jordan from late 80s-early 90s).

[guy]

Thats because of parity. But even thats not necessarily true. The Patriots have dominated the league for a while now. I cant say youre wrong about how much impact one player can have on a team. But I credit chemistry too. Wilt and Jordan are the two most dominant forces basketball has seen. Neiither won umtil thhey got help.

The Patriots haven't won a championship in almost a decade despite having arguably the best player in the league since then. That proves my point that an individual doesn't have nearly as much impact in the NFL. It also doesn't help an individual's case that the NFL is single elimination.

I never said great players don't win without help. My point is its alot easier to get help the greater the player and that great players rarely ever go through their career without enough help at some point in time.



I still say none of those guys legitimately walked into a season as the clear cut best team in the league. Sure they had good teams. Some even very good. But never the best. Or rarely. When compared to Russell, Jordan, Magic, and Bird.

Neither did Jordan, Magic, or Bird other then maybe a season or two. In fact, its incredibly rare for one team to be so head and shoulders above every single other team going into a season.



I guess were just gonna have to disagree. I asked you to produce a season in which any of those players had the best team and you couldnt. But still stand by your claim. My point is this. Its a luxory when you can have on a bad shooting sseries and still win comfortably. In Jordans case, its even more of a luxory when he and Pippen can not play up to their normall standards and still dominate a championship over a damn good team like the Sonics.

I can't think of a specific season for those specific players, at least nothing clear cut. I still stand by my point though. Like I said, its harder to build around a one dimensional player Reggie Miller or Dominique Wilkens that do nothing but score over all around great players who are also even better scorers like Jordan or Bird. You're ridiculous if you think if those players switched places that there wouldn't be huge differences in success for all the teams involved.

What do you think was a big reason why the Bulls still won series with Jordan shooting poorly? You think Jordan had nothing to do with that? And didn't provide significantly more then someone like Wilkens or Miller would've when they are shooting badly? You think Jordan just spent his time bricking shots and pouting with his head down afterwards?

By the way, saying the Bulls won when Jordan shot badly and using series averages is incredibly misleading cause that includes games that the Bulls lost which are really irrelevant when it comes to the Bulls winning the series. In the 96 Finals and the 93 ECF which is brought up alot as well, Jordan shot well in 4 of those 8 wins. In fact, in the 93 ECF he had two all-time great games.

Another thing, both Miller and Malone have had multiple playoff series' where they still won despite shooting poorly overall for the series.



Dirk is just as one diminsional as the players I mentioned. What did he do besides score? His defense is subpar, hes not much of a rebounder. But thaat team was well coached, and had an excellent defense.

I said those players scoring wasn't good enough and consistent enough to compensate for their one dimensional play. Dirk was, he can score in more ways, and he's not as dependent on his teammates to get his point nor does he get in the way of his teammates flourishing.



But those players dont win without the supporting cast bro. Thats what you and everyone else fail to see. The examples are there. The greatest players the league has ever seen didnt get it done until their "supportin casts" came around. Talk about the writing being on the wall.

You're not getting it.



You dont even have to guess. The Knicks could barely beat the Bulls without Jordan. They needed ref help. Most people feel if the Bulls get past the Knicks (myself included) they beat the Pacers before bowing out to the Rockets. As much as you dont want to admit. None of those teams had the resources to beat the Bulls. We saw that in 94 when the Knicks needed seven games and a bad call to beat the Bulls without Jordan. If the Knicks were to replace Starks with Miller, they might beat the Bulls.


And the Knicks almost beat the Bulls WITH Jordan. So whats your point? Not every series is the same. And that call and what feel might've happened is one of the most overblown things here.



And thats not guaranteed. If the Pacers replaced Derrick Mckey with Wilkins. Then they have a shot. If the Jazz replaced Ostertag with Ewing. If the Suns could replace Majrle Miller. Or the Blazers couldve added Barkley. Those are the kind of teams needed and they didnt have it.


If any of those moves happened, then Miller, Malone, Barkley, or Drexler would have had more help then Jordan, significantly in some of those cases. Miller with Nique and all that depth? Malone with Stockton AND Ewing? Barkley with KJ and Miller? Those deep Blazer teams with Drexler, Porter, Kersey, and now Barkley? If your making up these scenarios, your proving my point that these players would've needed an extraordinary amount of help, and even then I doubt they win 6 titles.

I'm not sure I get your point. My point was that each team was close enough to the Bulls that the biggest difference maker was the star player leading them. And not coincidentally Jordan ALWAYS outplayed all of them over the course of a series.

Let me ask. Taking accomplishments out of the equation what players would you build around instead of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, or Lebron (the players that happened to be the most accomplished players of their era)?

[Hands of Iron]

I agree entirely regarding the three bigs. Not that it's relevant here, but my 3 co-GOATs are Russell/Jordan/Magic (the greatest defensive player, the best two-way player, and the greatest offensive player). Bird is slightly lower since I don't know how to reconcile the two phases of his career (before and after McHale became a featured star on those teams), as he played a lot more in the post earlier. His peak (when he won the back-to-back-to-back MVPs) is among the top 5 in league history in my book (with Sixers Wilt, Bucks Kareem, threepeat Shaq, Jordan from late 80s-early 90s).

Interesting, I've got pretty much the same group with the exception of 1993-95 Olajuwon in the top five, with Bird just right outside. Or call it the Super Six.

[fpliii]

Interesting, I've got pretty much the same group with the exception of 1993-95 Olajuwon in the top five, with Bird just right outside. Or call it the Super Six.

:cheers:

Hakeem's my #6 guy, so super six is fine with me

[Hands of Iron]

:cheers:

Hakeem's my #6 guys, so super six is fine with me

:lol :cheers:

That deserves another green bar for you. Impact! :applause:

[DatAsh]

Well... this is exactly why I think the triumvirate of Shaq/Olajuwon/Duncan may be underrated. They're automatically relegated to the bottom half it seems without the thought of even putting forth an argument. I've often seen people say, when discussing Bill Russell's offense that "it wasn't that bad" and cite a game or two he scored 30 or with Magic and Bird's defense "they were above average" -- Hey, that's great. But we're actually looking for Phenomenal over 'Not that Bad' and All Time Great over 'Above Average'. It's very difficult for me to believe that Russell was so much greater defensively that not only does it completely override those guys' defense, but it also matches and surpasses their immense offensive capabilities. It's hard to believe that Bird and Magic were so much greater offensively that not only does it completely overide those guys' offense, but it also matches and surpasses their immense defensive capabilities. If I didn't know any better, that looks like somebody trying to pull a Fast One.

It's definitely a tight rope, and obviously posters are going to have differing opinions on what exactly should or shouldn't be weighed more heavily.

Unfortunately defense is a hard thing to measure. The few recordable defensive stats that we keep track of weren't recorded in Russells day. The few defensive stats that we do have from that era paint him in a pretty positive light though.

I don't put an enormous amount of stock in Defensive win shares, but over the course of several years they have to have at least some merit, especially when we're dealing with this big of a gap. Below are there top 6 seasons

Bill Russell

16.0
14.4
12.6
11.6
11.4
11.3


Hakeem Olajuwon

8.7
8.0
7.9
7.8
6.8
6.6


Tim Duncan

7.2
7.2
7.1
7.1
6.9
6.9

Shaquille O'Neal

7.0
6.0
4.8
4.6
4.4
4.0

Also, the year before the Bill arrived in Boston, the Celtics were the 2nd worst defensive team in the league. Once he joined, they rocketed up six spots to become the best defensive team in the league, and then stayed that way for the next twelve seasons. Once Bill retired they drop back down to a mere average defensive team. I really can't think of any other player before or since who's defense has had such a profound impact on the game. What other player is capable of taking a team that's in the bottom half of the league defensively and making them the best defensive team for the next thirteen years? What player is capable of accomplishing that same feat offensively? I can't think of any.

I see Bill Russell's defense as I do Rodman's rebounding, an outlier amongst outliers, for which we may never see a suitable equivalent.

If you haven't already read this, it's worth a read

http://www.backpicks.com/2010/12/31/bill-russells-defensive-impact/

I doubt it will change your mind, but it's quite the interesting read nonetheless . I can certainly see the argument for those three guys depending on how highly you value individual scoring. Also consider the fact that Russell was a better rebounder, and significantly better passer than all three of those guys. Scoring the basketball is really the only thing on court that they did better than Russell, albeit that one thing is pretty damn important.

It's a bit harder to measure something like leadership and off court impact, but I'd say it's safe to give Russell the edge there based on what we do know. He was there defensive floor general all thirteen years and coach from 66-69.