Michael Jordan: The Puppeteer

[andgar923]

Possibly MJ's most underrated aspect of his game is his passing. What makes MJ's passing great isn't solely his ability to make 'fancy' no look passes. It's his ability to quickly read and react without little to no hesitation, no time for the defense to figure him out cause he's telegraphing. A pass from him is always unpredictable and can come at any moment. With the exception of a handful of players, nobody comes close to this type of quick read and reaction. Part of the reason why this is uncommon is because when one goes into a certain mode say scoring, that's what they're focused on, so their vision isn't the same, their intent isn't the same. MJ even while on scoring mode could hit you on a blink of an eye, just as well as if he was in passing mode.

But what makes MJ even more unique and the GOAT at doing so, is reading, adjusting, reacting and executing 'while in the air'. Nobody touches MJ in this category, primarily because most of the great passers never really left their feet. MJ is unparalleled in this dept, as he's able to make fast reads, laser like precision passes even 'around' multiple defenders while in the air. Most players would be lucky enough to even find somebody open under the same circumstances, let alone execute in the same fashion with any sort of consistency.

MJ like Bird and Magic is a unique passer and should be revered as such. One of the greatest passers of all time.

And can we please stop the Bron is a better passer than MJ please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM&feature=g-all-u

[Da_Realist]

Possibly MJ's most underrated aspect of his game is his passing. What makes MJ's passing great isn't solely his ability to make 'fancy' no look passes. It's his ability to quickly read and react without little to no hesitation, no time for the defense to figure him out cause he's telegraphing. A pass from him is always unpredictable and can come at any moment. With the exception of a handful of players, nobody comes close to this type of quick read and reaction. Part of the reason why this is uncommon is because when one goes into a certain mode say scoring, that's what they're focused on, so their vision isn't the same, their intent isn't the same. MJ even while on scoring mode could hit you on a blink of an eye, just as well as if he was in passing mode.

But what makes MJ even more unique and the GOAT at doing so, is reading, adjusting, reacting and executing 'while in the air'. Nobody touches MJ in this category, primarily because most of the great passers never really left their feet. MJ is unparalleled in this dept, as he's able to make fast reads, laser like precision passes even 'around' multiple defenders while in the air. Most players would be lucky enough to even find somebody open under the same circumstances, let alone execute in the same fashion with any sort of consistency.

MJ like Bird and Magic is a unique passer and should be revered as such. One of the greatest passers of all time.

And can we please stop the Bron is a better passer than MJ please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM&feature=g-all-u

You're just asking for it. :facepalm Hope you got your blindfold and cigarette...

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lol

[jlip]

^What DaRealist said^

[LeBird]

You bring up a good point about his passing while driving or mid-air; he had the physicality that some of the great passers didn't. It made him more effective than he otherwise would be. But, his basketball IQ doesn't come near a Magic or a Bird, sorry.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nice compilation of clips ruined by shithead music. :hammerhead:

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan's hands played a big part in his in-air passing( all things in-air really). He had complete control of the ball when he palmed it, which allowed for some things that someone with smaller hands or less athleticism just wouldn't be physically capable of, even if they had the I.Q to pull it off.

[SpecialQue]

Jordan is so godly in everything he does...imagine if he owned a team? They'd hang more championship banners than Boston and LA combined!

[andgar923]

You bring up a good point about his passing while driving or mid-air; he had the physicality that some of the great passers didn't. It made him more effective than he otherwise would be. But, his basketball IQ doesn't come near a Magic or a Bird, sorry.

because he scores more?

And :roll: @ doesn't come "near"

[andgar923]

Jordan's hands played a big part in his in-air passing( all things in-air really). He had complete control of the ball when he palmed it, which allowed for some things that someone with smaller hands or less athleticism just wouldn't be physically capable of, even if they had the I.Q to pull it off.

I was getting ready to edit that in. His hands played a huge role in his ability to make some of those passes.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Jordan is so godly in everything he does...imagine if he owned a team? They'd hang more championship banners than Boston and LA combined!


Don't forget how good he would be if he played other sports!!! No way the White Sox don't win it all with him playing RF and batting 4th :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[RRR3]

Jordan is so godly in everything he does...imagine if he owned a team? They'd hang more championship banners than Boston and LA combined!
Mj is so great he can eat a cucumber and shit out a salad. Imagine If he was a gm I bet he'd make the goat draft picks!:bowdown:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Jordan is such a beast I bet he could have come out of retirement to lead a team like the Wizards to the playoffs

[scandisk_]

stop provoking 97 bulls :oldlol:

[Raz]

Mj is so great he can eat a cucumber and shit out a salad. Imagine If he was a gm I bet he'd make the goat draft picks!:bowdown:

Yeah man, eating a number 1 overall pick and shitting out Kwame Brown

:rockon:

[RRR3]

MJ is so great I bet he could beat LeBron one-on-one right now, even though he's 50 (andgar) :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[LeBird]

[QUOTE=andgar923]because he scores more?

And :roll: @ doesn't come "near"

[Asukal]

You bring up a good point about his passing while driving or mid-air; he had the physicality that some of the great passers didn't. It made him more effective than he otherwise would be. But, his basketball IQ doesn't come near a Magic or a Bird, sorry.

I disagree with the bolded. I will say that this however, Magic>Bird>MJ when it comes to passing. :D

[andgar923]

The fact that he was doubled so often is why he probably could've had even more assists, but you've missed the point. Jordan racked up assists not because he had great vision (BB IQ) a la Magic or Bird, but because he was such a scorer (which was in large part due to his athleticism).

I have a hard time believing anyone who has seen all 3, and how they'd pass, would put Jordan on the same level as them. There is some ****ed up revisionism going on.
You were alluding to IQ, not passing.

I gave reasons why MJ's IQ was equaled to theirs. He doesn't lead his team to become the dynasty that it is if he didn't have their IQ.

He read the plays before they happened just like they did.

He made the right decisions just like they did.

He helped improve his teammates and turn around an organization unlike any other player possibly ever.

It's laughable to say he wasn't "close" to their IQ.

passing wise, he's just as good, don't get it twisted.

[LeBird]

IQ in reference to passing; not altogether. For example, I'd say in terms of creating - and taking - shots Jordan has a brilliant basketball mind. In terms of facilitating for others he doesn't.

And I wouldn't say Jordan made his teammates better anywhere near what Bird, and to a lesser extent Magic, did.

[andgar923]

IQ in reference to passing; not altogether. For example, I'd say in terms of creating - and taking - shots Jordan has a brilliant basketball mind. In terms of facilitating for others he doesn't.

And I wouldn't say Jordan made his teammates better anywhere near what Bird, and to a lesser extent Magic, did.

Another myth that gets regurgitated yet again.

Because I'm sure it was soooooo hard making McHale, Parrish, Kareem, Worthy and those other players better. I'm sure it was extremely tough to take franchises with a great foundation to the top, as opposed a mediocre one with a revolving door of coaches and players to the top.

Talk about revisionist history.

Do people forget how shitty Pip was?
The shitty teammates that MJ had for most of his early career, and to some degree even when he was winning?

As far as passing, it's far closer then you think.

Mj's assists would be even better if he had players worth passing too, specially in the middle. Imagine if he had McHale, Worthy, Kareem, Parrish, etc.etc.? the best consistent option he had was Grant.

His timing, court vision was right on their level. Not saying he was better, but let's not pretend that he wasn't "near" their level.

[AlphaWolf24]

Considering teh different era's...and different style's Bird , Magic and Mj played in...


- I can totally agree with Le Bird and other posters who say "Magic and Bird had a much higher basketball IQ and overall cerebral approach"..

- IMO it's not even close....Magic and Bird played basketball on a much different level/wave length then Jordan did.

- yes MJ did Dominate with pure physical will...Bird and Magic wre on a much higher level...almost orchestrating the entire game with mind and body...

- and considering how much Jordan struggled early in his career...and how Bird's Celtics mopped the floor with MJ's Bull's ( even when MJ played like a God he still got merked)....History proves this theory correct

[DatAsh]

Although he was a less willing passer and more scoring minded, I do think Jordan's passing skills were on par with that of Scottie Pippens. However, I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe that he is a better passer than Lebron or Bird, and I've seen the entire careers of all three players. I will concede that it is somewhat close, but there still exists a clear distinction between those two groups.

[Da_Realist]

MJ is my guy but he's not close to Bird in passing.

[LeBird]

Talk about revisionist history.


Bird affected the biggest turnaround in NBA history at the time without those stars. From the 2nd worst team to the best record in his Rookie year. Try again. Even Magic improved the team many games - although he did have a great teammate, his team wasn't gonna win shit without him - and won the title.

Look, Jordan was a very good passer (if somewhat unwilling at times); and I like some of the points you've brought up; but he isn't in that top echelon of passers with Bird or Magic. That's just fanboy nonsense.

[andgar923]

Although he was a less willing passer and more scoring minded, I do think Jordan's passing skills were on par with that of Scottie Pippens. However, I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe that he is a better passer than Lebron or Bird, and I've seen the entire careers of all three players. I will concede that it is somewhat close, but there still exists a clear distinction between those two groups.

Pippen aint better than MJ, never was never will. Mj's court vision and reaction are superior.

I'll take Bird over MJ that's fair.

But Bron? nope.

Bron takes too long, he's easy to read. One can easily read what his intentions are, and he isn't on the same IQ level that MJ, Bird, Magic and a few others are.

[andgar923]

Bird affected the biggest turnaround in NBA history at the time without those stars. From the 2nd worst team to the best record in his Rookie year. Try again. Even Magic improved the team many games - although he did have a great teammate, his team wasn't gonna win shit without him - and won the title.

Look, Jordan was a very good passer (if somewhat unwilling at times); and I like some of the points you've brought up; but he isn't in that top echelon of passers with Bird or Magic. That's just fanboy nonsense.

I stand corrected.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

He was a great great passer, but I can't say he was on a Bird or Magic level. Those two are definitely a level above. That's not an insult though, those two are 2 of the greatest passers ever. Michael was a great pass too, just not bird or Magic great.

[che guevara]

MJ is my guy but he's not close to Bird in passing.
Yeah, let alone Magic.

Stuff like this is why I can't take andgar seriously at all as a poster. 20% of the time he'll surprise you with great posts, but then there's shit like this that's just so stupid you can't take him seriously at all.

[L.Kizzle]

Drexler as passing >>>> Jordan.

[KG215]

Yeah, let alone Magic.

Stuff like this is why I can't take andgar seriously at all as a poster. 20% of the time he'll surprise you with great posts, but then there's shit like this that's just so stupid you can't take him seriously at all.

Yeah, I do like some of the information he brings about Jordan but he gets as offended by people saying Jordan wasn't as good at something (as he thinks) as some of these Kobe stans do when you say Kobe is #7-#10 all-time and not top 6, like it's blasphemous to think that.

Jordan is my guy. I'm 25 and I fell in love with the NBA because of Michael Jordan. I still think he's part human part god. As I've gotten older and been able to find old games and go back and watch them, though, I know he had flaws. I mean, sure, prime/peak Jordan was as close to a perfect basketball player as you can get, but he wasn't the best at everything.

At the end of the day, I can live with an oversensitive Jordan stan, because it's nice to be reminded why he's the GOAT after wading through the hundreds of new posts made each day by the hordes of Kobe stans.

[Solid Snake]

A pass from him is always unpredictable and can come at any moment. With the exception of a handful of players, nobody comes close to this type of quick read and reaction.

Magic, Bird, Lebron, Stockon, Nash

[andgar923]

Yeah, let alone Magic.

Stuff like this is why I can't take andgar seriously at all as a poster. 20% of the time he'll surprise you with great posts, but then there's shit like this that's just so stupid you can't take him seriously at all.

Stupid because?

He doesn't come close to their vision?
He doesn't come close to their timing?

Never said he was better, simply that he gets unrecognized for his passing because he scores so well.

Simply stated, he was 1b to their 1a. Don't see who that's "stupid" when he proved he could be as good as them at reading and reacting AND could do things they couldn't. The later at least makes him closer to their level. He was able to come very close to their vision, anticipation, reaction, awareness, ability to read defense, but they have never been close to do some of the things he could do. That surely should close the gap no?

Nobody has yet to make a valid claim as to why he isn't on their level, yet dudes are saying he aint even "near" their level

[andgar923]

Magic, Bird, Lebron, Stockon, Nash

Lebron is very predictable compared to them.

He hesitates too long by comparison. He basically telegraphs his passes at times. He's stand there and dribble, dribble, dribble and you know when and where the pass is coming when compared to the players you listed.

[Hands of Iron]

Yeah, I do like some of the information he brings about Jordan but he gets as offended by people saying Jordan wasn't as good at something (as he thinks) as some of these Kobe stans do when you say Kobe is #7-#10 all-time and not top 6, like it's blasphemous to think that.

Jordan is my guy. I'm 25 and I fell in love with the NBA because of Michael Jordan. I still think he's part human part god. As I've gotten older and been able to find old games and go back and watch them, though, I know he had flaws. I mean, sure, prime/peak Jordan was as close to a perfect basketball player as you can get, but he wasn't the best at everything.

At the end of the day, I can live with an oversensitive Jordan stan, because it's nice to be reminded why he's the GOAT after wading through the hundreds of new posts made each day by the hordes of Kobe stans.

I'm 25 as well, although amongst the real basketball fans on here, Jordan seems to be the guy for all of you. :lol I consider him the best/greatest but for me, it's much more fun looking back, discussing and watching game film from those days and just prior to Jordan's title ascension knowing there were some players who could compete with him as far as dominance, impact on the floor, skills, etc.

[wakencdukest]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Stupid because?

He doesn't come close to their vision?
He doesn't come close to their timing?

Never said he was better, simply that he gets unrecognized for his passing because he scores so well.

Simply stated, he was 1b to their 1a. Don't see who that's "stupid" when he proved he could be as good as them at reading and reacting AND could do things they couldn't. The later at least makes him closer to their level. He was able to come very close to their vision, anticipation, reaction, awareness, ability to read defense, but they have never been close to do some of the things he could do. That surely should close the gap no?

Nobody has yet to make a valid claim as to why he isn't on their level, yet dudes are saying he aint even "near" their level

[scandisk_]

Bird > MJ in passing and it's not even close :oldlol:

I do hope you're just trolling 97 bulls, Andgar (the Pippen stuff). Cause if not :oldlol:

[Dro]

Yeah, I do like some of the information he brings about Jordan but he gets as offended by people saying Jordan wasn't as good at something (as he thinks) as some of these Kobe stans do when you say Kobe is #7-#10 all-time and not top 6, like it's blasphemous to think that.

Jordan is my guy. I'm 25 and I fell in love with the NBA because of Michael Jordan. I still think he's part human part god. As I've gotten older and been able to find old games and go back and watch them, though, I know he had flaws. I mean, sure, prime/peak Jordan was as close to a perfect basketball player as you can get, but he wasn't the best at everything.

At the end of the day, I can live with an oversensitive Jordan stan, because it's nice to be reminded why he's the GOAT after wading through the hundreds of new posts made each day by the hordes of Kobe stans.
I agree with this...

[TheMan]

You bring up a good point about his passing while driving or mid-air; he had the physicality that some of the great passers didn't. It made him more effective than he otherwise would be. But, his basketball IQ doesn't come near a Magic or a Bird, sorry.
BS, both Magic and Bird have said that MJ's basketball IQ is on an elite level.

[LeBird]

BS, both Magic and Bird have said that MJ's basketball IQ is on an elite level.

If Jordan is Elite; they're God level. Either way, they were much more cerebral than he was.

[Punpun]

Oh please. Magic is untouchable. Some of the pass he makes are just out of this world.

[Calabis]

You bring up a good point about his passing while driving or mid-air; he had the physicality that some of the great passers didn't. It made him more effective than he otherwise would be. But, his basketball IQ doesn't come near a Magic or a Bird, sorry.

:wtf: You have to be kidding me.

[LeBird]

:wtf: You have to be kidding me.

In terms of passing. In terms of creating a shot, sure.

[Calabis]

If Jordan is Elite; they're God level. Either way, they were much more cerebral than he was.

LMAO...their wasn't much difference at all, in their BBall IQ's, they all had different styles of play.

Passing Magic/Bird better, whoever thinks otherwise is completely being a tool.

If we are going to call Passing= IQ, then what about defensive IQ, Jordan shits on both of them

Jordan's IQ is on PAR with anyone who has stepped foot on a NBA Court. You don't reach his status, just because you are a physical freak.

[Calabis]

In terms of passing. In terms of creating a shot, sure.

Creating a shot? Why because they created them differently?

[andgar923]

LMAO...their wasn't much difference at all, in their BBall IQ's, they all had different styles of play.

Passing Magic/Bird better, whoever thinks otherwise is completely being a tool.

If we are going to call Passing= IQ, then what about defensive IQ, Jordan shits on both of them

Jordan's IQ is on PAR with anyone who has stepped foot on a NBA Court. You don't reach his status, just because you are a physical freak.

I wouldn't necessarily say that MJ's defensive IQ shits on both of them, he just had better physical tools. And that also speaks to how they passed. Some keep saying that MJ was nowhere near Bird of Magic (they don't elaborate) I'm assuming it's because they go about it in different ways. MJ is closer to their way of passing in the Wizards years. MJ all of a sudden gets called 'crafty' and described as having a 'high ball IQ' now that he can't jump outta the gym.

Watching some of the Magic clips, Magic and Bird made most of their passes out of 'necessity' because they didn't have the same physical tools that MJ did. They had to make some of the passes that they made because truthfully, it was the best option for them due to their physical limits.

On the flip side, MJ was doing things they could NEVER dream of due to his physical superiority. There's no way that Magic or Bird could make some of the passes MJ makes when he leaves his feet. The excuses some people gave are hilarious. "he only had assists because he was getting doubled" or "he was scoring so that's were his passes came from" or some bullshit like that

[wakencdukest]

[QUOTE=andgar923]
Watching some of the Magic clips, Magic and Bird made most of their passes out of 'necessity' because they didn't have the same physical tools that MJ did. They had to make some of the passes that they made because truthfully, it was the best option for them due to their physical limits.

On the flip side, MJ was doing things they could NEVER dream of due to his physical superiority. There's no way that Magic or Bird could make some of the passes MJ makes when he leaves his feet. The excuses some people gave are hilarious. "he only had assists because he was getting doubled" or "he was scoring so that's were his passes came from" or some bullshit like that

[LeBird]

Jordan's IQ is on PAR with anyone who has stepped foot on a NBA Court. You don't reach his status, just because you are a physical freak.

I agree that he wasn't just a physical specimen and that he was also remarkably smart. On the defensive end I think he was great - but not so much because he had a better reading of the game...he was just more physically capable than Bird and Magic. I think in all-round basketball IQ that the latter two were smarter; but I will concede that in many instances Jordan was brilliant too. In terms of passing, however, I don't think they're even close. They made passes that required the highest cerebral interpretation of the game - passes that you couldn't see until they made it - that you didn't see consistently from Jordan to put him in the same tier as them.


Creating a shot? Why because they created them differently?

No, because Jordan could create a winder range of shots due to not only his intelligence but his physical capability. In terms of scoring, he is a phenom.

[LeBird]

[QUOTE=andgar923]
Watching some of the Magic clips, Magic and Bird made most of their passes out of 'necessity' because they didn't have the same physical tools that MJ did. They had to make some of the passes that they made because truthfully, it was the best option for them due to their physical limits.

On the flip side, MJ was doing things they could NEVER dream of due to his physical superiority. There's no way that Magic or Bird could make some of the passes MJ makes when he leaves his feet. The excuses some people gave are hilarious. "he only had assists because he was getting doubled" or "he was scoring so that's were his passes came from" or some bullshit like that

[Calabis]

I agree that he wasn't just a physical specimen and that he was also remarkably smart. On the defensive end I think he was great - but not so much because he had a better reading of the game...he was just more physically capable than Bird and Magic. I think in all-round basketball IQ that the latter two were smarter; but I will concede that in many instances Jordan was brilliant too. In terms of passing, however, I don't think they're even close. They made passes that required the highest cerebral interpretation of the game - passes that you couldn't see until they made it - that you didn't see consistently from Jordan to put him in the same tier as them.



No, because Jordan could create a winder range of shots due to not only his intelligence but his physical capability. In terms of scoring, he is a phenom.

Good post can not argue against much of what you wrote, I think coming into the league those guys were smarter than MJ, they had it from the get go, where as Jordan took time to develop his IQ, but once he got there, he became the guy we know today and was on their level.

And as far as passing, Jordan was not as good as those guys...I wouldn't even be dumb enough to argue that.

Jordan was just as crafty and good at creating his shot, he just made it look much more effortless, due to his physical attributes.....I don't agree with the notion Bird was better at creating his shot, he created his shot with the tools he had, as did Jordan...that doesn't mean Bird had a better shot creating IQ...some of the shit Jordan did was innovate...that takes an IQ....look at MJ after his first retirement and Wizards years, he was just as good at creating his own.

[LeBird]

I think you misunderstood me; I didn't say Bird created his shot better than Jordan. I think Jordan is the best ever in the game at that skill. Bird was elite, and did well with his skillset, but Jordan gave you so many problems; not just because he was a good shooter, but that he could attack the rim just as well as he could hit a mid-range jumper all-night long. His intensity and boundless energy is what makes him match big-men - or we could say surpass everybody but Wilt - in terms of scoring truckload after truckload of points.

[DatAsh]

Magic and Bird didn't pass more than Jordan out of necessity, they passed more because they had a different approach to playing the game.

Overall, I think Magic and Bird are among the best basketball IQs to ever play the game. I disagree that Jordan was great on defense because of his physical gifts. Everything I've read about Jordan and Pippen leads me to believe they are among the top 3 defensive minds ever(strictly talking players here). They'd spend hours after practice thinking up new defensive tricks and "cheats" if you will to gain an edge on their opponents in game.

[andgar923]

Let me clarify what I meant about passing out of 'necessity'.

Go watch some clips, you'll see Bird of Magic go down the lane the defense collapse and they'll dish. MJ in the same type of play will be able to jump and finish with more consistency. We would see MJ stop doing this less when he became a Wizard. As a Wizard MJ would have to make the pass because he was unable to jump and stay in the air as long far more often.

That is what I mean by out of necessity.

On the flip side, MJ could jump in the air, hang and make the same type of pass that both Bird and Magic would make, but again

[eliteballer]

You're a completely delusional twit. Go watch games 1 and 2 of the 91 Finals if you think Jordan had anywhere near the vision of Magic.

[Dro]

You're a completely delusional twit. Go watch games 1 and 2 of the 91 Finals if you think Jordan had anywhere near the vision of Magic.
He's a delusional twit because he doesn't agree with you? At least the guy is giving some solid reasoning to back up his point...Damn, grow up...

[andgar923]

Magic and Bird didn't pass more than Jordan out of necessity, they passed more because they had a different approach to playing the game.

Overall, I think Magic and Bird are among the best basketball IQs to ever play the game. I disagree that Jordan was great on defense because of his physical gifts. Everything I've read about Jordan and Pippen leads me to believe they are among the top 3 defensive minds ever(strictly talking players here). They'd spend hours after practice thinking up new defensive tricks and "cheats" if you will to gain an edge on their opponents in game.

Magic and Bird had the same defensive IQ that MJ had. The difference is MJ had the physical advantage. That allowed him to stay in front of people, allowed him to block from behind, to not just anticipate but get the steal or block. Magic and Bird could've seen the same things defensively as MJ, but they simply couldn't react quickly enough to get the steal, jump high enough to block the shot, move their feet fast enough to stay in front of the man.

I'm not as athletic as I used to be. I can still read the offense just like before, the difference between then and now is that even if I can't stay in front of my man anymore. I can't gamble the same way cause I'll get beat more. So having the physical tools DID help MJ. You're fooling yourself if you believe that they weren't as smart as he was. Actually one may even make the point that Bird may have been slightly smarter than MJ on the defensive side. I've seen him make plays on the defensive end that amazed me at times more than what MJ did due to his timing. Considering his physical liabilities, he was still able to get decent numbers on the defensive side. Remember that famous MJ vs Bird between the legs play? Bird managed to cut off MJ's angle, MJ was simply too fast and could jump to high for Bird. If Bird could jump higher he'd be able to contest the shot more effectively. That's a good example of Mj's superior athleticism being an advantage.

We saw the same thing on the passing front in which MJ would jump close to the 3pt line and zoom in a no look pass between defenders in the paint. That's something that neither Bird or Magic could do either with any consistency or at all.

What made Mj a better defender was his athletic abilities over them (at least over Bird). Magic simply wasn't as intent on playing defense as neither of the two.

[andgar923]

You're a completely delusional twit. Go watch games 1 and 2 of the 91 Finals if you think Jordan had anywhere near the vision of Magic.

I can understand people saying that MJ may not have been on their level. But to say that he wasn't close is ignorant.

Like I mentioned, if Magic and Bird are 1a, MJ is 1b or maybe 2a, not 4 or however some of you make it seem.

[Da_Realist]

I can understand people saying that MJ may not have been on their level. But to say that he wasn't close is ignorant.

Like I mentioned, if Magic and Bird are 1a, MJ is 1b or maybe 2a, not 4 or however some of you make it seem.

It really wasn't. I think MJ was good at finding an open man but Bird/Magic found him before he was open. That's the difference. I just saw a Celtics game from 91 recently where Bird made several plays on the pick-and-roll that MJ never did. A well placed bounce pass that found Shaw open for a layup when he wasn't open until he received the ball. Magic used to stand at the 3pt line and needle a pass between 4 defenders to a guy open at the rim. The only person that could make that pass was Magic and he did it regularly. Stockton couldn't make that pass.

[poido123]

Another myth that gets regurgitated yet again.

Because I'm sure it was soooooo hard making McHale, Parrish, Kareem, Worthy and those other players better. I'm sure it was extremely tough to take franchises with a great foundation to the top, as opposed a mediocre one with a revolving door of coaches and players to the top.

Talk about revisionist history.

Do people forget how shitty Pip was?
The shitty teammates that MJ had for most of his early career, and to some degree even when he was winning?

As far as passing, it's far closer then you think.

Mj's assists would be even better if he had players worth passing too, specially in the middle. Imagine if he had McHale, Worthy, Kareem, Parrish, etc.etc.? the best consistent option he had was Grant.

His timing, court vision was right on their level. Not saying he was better, but let's not pretend that he wasn't "near" their level.

Ok, Jordan for nearly half of the 1989 season, played the point guard role and averaged over 10 assists Pg. Magic and Bird were better passers, but Jordan would be a 1b to their 1a. To the trolls like alphawolf and co, jordan's basketball IQ was very close if not the same as bird and magic. Though id have bird above both these two.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You're a completely delusional twit. Go watch games 1 and 2 of the 91 Finals if you think Jordan had anywhere near the vision of Magic.

Game 1 - Magic 11 ast, Jordan 12 ast
Game 2 - Magic 10 ast, Jordan 13 ast

:confusedshrug: :pimp:

I of course disagree with anyone who states that Jordan was on or near Magic's level in terms of passing. But basketball IQ isn't reducible to strictly passing the ball. They used their bball IQ's in different ways because they had vastly different approaches to the game. Jordan's basketball IQ is easily at/above/ near their level. Easily.

[Da_Realist]

I of course disagree with anyone who states that Jordan was on or near Magic's level in terms of passing. But basketball IQ isn't reducible to strictly passing the ball. They used their bball IQ's in different ways because they had vastly different approaches to the game. Jordan's basketball IQ is easily at/above/ near their level. Easily.

This.

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwlhcnoljnM&t=0m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7I7dnb-4k&t=31m05s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7I7dnb-4k&t=107m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdklgmtiG-M&t=0m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC9ozsRRabU&t=15m25s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7I7dnb-4k&t=33m16s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdklgmtiG-M&t=0m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7LY1zSfeRY&t=5m27s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7LY1zSfeRY&t=7m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7LY1zSfeRY&t=5m46s

You truly think Jordan's passing/vision/playmaking is comparable to THAT? You're truly that deluded and dense?

[andgar923]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwlhcnoljnM&t=0m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7I7dnb-4k&t=31m05s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7I7dnb-4k&t=107m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdklgmtiG-M&t=0m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC9ozsRRabU&t=15m25s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ7I7dnb-4k&t=33m16s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdklgmtiG-M&t=0m47s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7LY1zSfeRY&t=5m27s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7LY1zSfeRY&t=7m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7LY1zSfeRY&t=5m46s

You truly think Jordan's passing/vision/playmaking is comparable to THAT? You're truly that deluded and dense?

Aside from maybe one or two, yes.

And can Magic or Bird make some of the passes that MJ does while in the air? not close.

Did you even watch the vid I posted? he has very similar passes, along with some they could only dream about.

[Round Mound]

Ofcourse MJ was NOT in the Level of a Passer as Magic and Bird Where. Only an Idiot Would Say Contrary...But He Was Quite Good Too. He was Above Average Passer Clearly. He Was a Good Passer...Not a Great One Like Bird and Magic Where. Many Of Michael`s Passes Where Rooted In His Acrobatic Plays and Double-Triple Teaming...Leaving a Man Open For Him To Pass. Still as He Aged He Developed Into a Very Good Passer. Very Good For a Guy Who Is The Best Ever 1st Option Scorer.

[DatAsh]

Ofcourse MJ was NOT in the Level of a Passer as Magic and BirdWhere. Only aqn Idiot Would Say Contrary...But He Was Quite Good Too. He was Above Average Passer Clearly. He Was a Good Passer...Not a Great One Like Bird and Magic Where. Many Of Michael`s Passes Where Rooted In His Acrobatic and Double-Triple Teaming...Leaving a Man Open For Him To Pass. Still as He Aged He Developed Into a Very Good Passer. Very Good For a Guy Who Is The Best Ever 1st Option Scorer.

Your font in combination with your sentence structure forced me to read that as a Robot.

[Round Mound]

Your font in combination with your sentence structure forced me to read that as a Robot.

Corrected some Stuff :roll: :rockon: :applause: :cheers:

[DatAsh]

Corrected some Stuff :roll: :rockon: :applause: :cheers:

The biggest problem for my brain is the first letter of every word being capitalized.

[andgar923]

Ofcourse MJ was NOT in the Level of a Passer as Magic and Bird Where. Only an Idiot Would Say Contrary...But He Was Quite Good Too. He was Above Average Passer Clearly. He Was a Good Passer...Not a Great One Like Bird and Magic Where. Many Of Michael`s Passes Where Rooted In His Acrobatic Plays and Double-Triple Teaming...Leaving a Man Open For Him To Pass. Still as He Aged He Developed Into a Very Good Passer. Very Good For a Guy Who Is The Best Ever 1st Option Scorer.

Da Realist made the best argument, but even then I've seen MJ make passes (not as often) to teammates before they knew they were open.

I think you and others are confusing the 'method' of their pass.

What Mj did in the air at times, Bird and Magic did on the floor. They still had to survey the floor and find the open man, they still had to thread the needle through multiple defenders, they still had the hit the man on the money and they still had to read the defense. MJ just did it differently than they did.

The video that I linked too, doesn't show MJ making the more basic passes that Bird and Magic are getting hailed for doing (rightfully so). There's a couple that do come close in which Mj has the ball and surprises his teammates. And NO he isn't being double or triple teamed. I remember watching game footage of MJ making passes right before his teammates knew they were open, that isn't exclusive to solely 3 players. I agree, they did it more than he did but it aint like MJ never did.

Another thing worth noting, MJ would purposely draw the defense at times. He was smart enough to wait for the double or wait to get the defense off balance and then make the pass. A perfect example of that although a very simple play, was the game winning shot by Kerr. MJ knew what the defense was gonna do, he waited for the defender then passed it. Do people think that was the only time that happened? That's part of what made MJ so smart and in effect a great passer as well. He timed when the defense was gonna react, then acted upon it. Something that Magic didn't have to do, but something that Bird did effectively.

I don't agree that MJ should get penalized because he's athletic either. It appears as tho you and some are discrediting him for it. There's even moments in which he's in the air and not only is the entire defense fooled as to where he's gonna pass, but also the player himself and the camera. It's like Mj jumps up, you assume the pass is going to player A, but instead it goes to player C and it surprises him a bit. How he saw him, who knows :confusedshrug: how he even got it to him is a marvel. He doesn't get credit for that? Again

[Round Mound]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Da Realist made the best argument, but even then I've seen MJ make passes (not as often) to teammates before they knew they were open.

I think you and others are confusing the 'method' of their pass.

What Mj did in the air at times, Bird and Magic did on the floor. They still had to survey the floor and find the open man, they still had to thread the needle through multiple defenders, they still had the hit the man on the money and they still had to read the defense. MJ just did it differently than they did.

The video that I linked too, doesn't show MJ making the more basic passes that Bird and Magic are getting hailed for doing (rightfully so). There's a couple that do come close in which Mj has the ball and surprises his teammates. And NO he isn't being double or triple teamed. I remember watching game footage of MJ making passes right before his teammates knew they were open, that isn't exclusive to solely 3 players. I agree, they did it more than he did but it aint like MJ never did.

Another thing worth noting, MJ would purposely draw the defense at times. He was smart enough to wait for the double or wait to get the defense off balance and then make the pass. A perfect example of that although a very simple play, was the game winning shot by Kerr. MJ knew what the defense was gonna do, he waited for the defender then passed it. Do people think that was the only time that happened? That's part of what made MJ so smart and in effect a great passer as well. He timed when the defense was gonna react, then acted upon it. Something that Magic didn't have to do, but something that Bird did effectively.

I don't agree that MJ should get penalized because he's athletic either. It appears as tho you and some are discrediting him for it. There's even moments in which he's in the air and not only is the entire defense fooled as to where he's gonna pass, but also the player himself and the camera. It's like Mj jumps up, you assume the pass is going to player A, but instead it goes to player C and it surprises him a bit. How he saw him, who knows :confusedshrug: how he even got it to him is a marvel. He doesn't get credit for that? Again

[SourPatchKids]

Couple of the sweetest touch-passes I've ever seen in there.

[SourPatchKids]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_boRREL01Spg/SuCmnh2tP_I/AAAAAAAAD04/7za7X860saY/s320/IMG_0608.jpg

[andgar923]

No You are Not an Idiot. You Just Grew Up in the 90s and Where Bombarded by The Media Saying Jordan Being "Perfect" But He Wasn`t. Magic and Bird had VISION and PASSING ABILITY ON PURE TALENT...More than MJ Had. They Started Off as Being Great Passers From Start Point...While For Jordan he Became a Better Passer as the Years Passed but He WASN`T IN THE LEVEL OF BIRD AND MAGIC AS A PASSER.

I actually grew up in the 80s. :confusedshrug:

[pauk]

Possibly MJ's most underrated aspect of his game is his passing. What makes MJ's passing great isn't solely his ability to make 'fancy' no look passes. It's his ability to quickly read and react without little to no hesitation, no time for the defense to figure him out cause he's telegraphing. A pass from him is always unpredictable and can come at any moment. With the exception of a handful of players, nobody comes close to this type of quick read and reaction. Part of the reason why this is uncommon is because when one goes into a certain mode say scoring, that's what they're focused on, so their vision isn't the same, their intent isn't the same. MJ even while on scoring mode could hit you on a blink of an eye, just as well as if he was in passing mode.

But what makes MJ even more unique and the GOAT at doing so, is reading, adjusting, reacting and executing 'while in the air'. Nobody touches MJ in this category, primarily because most of the great passers never really left their feet. MJ is unparalleled in this dept, as he's able to make fast reads, laser like precision passes even 'around' multiple defenders while in the air. Most players would be lucky enough to even find somebody open under the same circumstances, let alone execute in the same fashion with any sort of consistency.

MJ like Bird and Magic is a unique passer and should be revered as such. One of the greatest passers of all time.

And can we please stop the Bron is a better passer than MJ please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM&feature=g-all-u
stopped caring right there

[KG215]

You're a completely delusional twit. Go watch games 1 and 2 of the 91 Finals if you think Jordan had anywhere near the vision of Magic.

Probably not the best scenario to compare the two. That was Jordan at his playmaking/passing best, especially in game one. Jordan had 11 assists in game one with a very nice passing/distributing display. Game two, pretty much the same thing. In those two games Jordan out assisted Magic 25-21. And, at the same time, that wasn't Magic at his best as far as a playmaker and floor general.

Not saying I think Jordan was a better passer, I'm just not sure that's the best example to use when comparing him to Magic in that department.

[DatAsh]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Da Realist made the best argument, but even then I've seen MJ make passes (not as often) to teammates before they knew they were open.

I think you and others are confusing the 'method' of their pass.

What Mj did in the air at times, Bird and Magic did on the floor. They still had to survey the floor and find the open man, they still had to thread the needle through multiple defenders, they still had the hit the man on the money and they still had to read the defense. MJ just did it differently than they did.

The video that I linked too, doesn't show MJ making the more basic passes that Bird and Magic are getting hailed for doing (rightfully so). There's a couple that do come close in which Mj has the ball and surprises his teammates. And NO he isn't being double or triple teamed. I remember watching game footage of MJ making passes right before his teammates knew they were open, that isn't exclusive to solely 3 players. I agree, they did it more than he did but it aint like MJ never did.

Another thing worth noting, MJ would purposely draw the defense at times. He was smart enough to wait for the double or wait to get the defense off balance and then make the pass. A perfect example of that although a very simple play, was the game winning shot by Kerr. MJ knew what the defense was gonna do, he waited for the defender then passed it. Do people think that was the only time that happened? That's part of what made MJ so smart and in effect a great passer as well. He timed when the defense was gonna react, then acted upon it. Something that Magic didn't have to do, but something that Bird did effectively.

I don't agree that MJ should get penalized because he's athletic either. It appears as tho you and some are discrediting him for it. There's even moments in which he's in the air and not only is the entire defense fooled as to where he's gonna pass, but also the player himself and the camera. It's like Mj jumps up, you assume the pass is going to player A, but instead it goes to player C and it surprises him a bit. How he saw him, who knows :confusedshrug: how he even got it to him is a marvel. He doesn't get credit for that? Again

[Round Mound]

You definitely don't come across as an idiot, just biased.

This