#23 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dirk Nowitzki was voted the #22 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops.

22.9 PPG | 8.3 RPG | 2.6 APG

NBA Champion
2010-11 NBA Finals MVP
2006-07 NBA Most Valuable Player
11

[The Choken One]

11. LeBron James

Average age of voter: 13 years old. :lol

[BoutPractice]

David Robinson.

[IGotACoolStory]

http://i48.tinypic.com/28atdlx.jpg

[dyna]

David Robinson

[Heavincent]

Pippen.

[christian1923]

isiah, jeez cant believe he hasnt been voted in yet.

[KG215]

Mikan

[fpliii]

Isiah

[BlueandGold]

Dirk over Drob? Lebron over Moses, West, Oscar and Dr. J already?

:facepalm thread fail since #11

[Raz]

http://www.digjack.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/t1_lakers_centers.jpg

The one guy from these 3 that hasn't been picked. GEORGE MIKAN

[fpliii]

btw, where does everybody see Gervin/Drexler/Wade/Rodman getting voted in? I don't think any of the four have received a single vote yet, but all of them are in my top 30

[chips93]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Detroit%20Pistons/Isiah%20Thomas/GIFs/isiahthomascrazyshot08.gif

[kurple]

my god. it has to be zeke this time

[Legends66NBA7]

Dirk got underrated again. At least Top 20, IMO.

[Sarcastic]

Isiah Thomas.

[JMT]

Mikan

[MasterDurant24]

Wow, at Dirk over D-Rob. Robinson was just flat out a better player in every way except shooting.

Over Isiah is even worse. I guess people ding him for his efficieny and the fact that he played on a stacked team, even though if you anything about the Bad Boys, you know Isiah was clearly the leader of that team. It's crazy how Dirk climbed about 20-30 places higher because of one run to the championship. Great player, but come on.

My vote is Isiah.

[chips93]

Dirk got underrated again. At least Top 20, IMO.

really? who in the top 20 should he be ahead of?

[WillC]

George Mikan.

Isiah's time for votes will come soon, but he doesn't deserve to be ahead of George Mikan.

[Heilige]

George Mikan

[Deuce Bigalow]

George Mikan.

Isiah's time for votes will come soon, but he doesn't deserve to be ahead of George Mikan.
Mikan for 23
Isiah and D-Rob to round up the top 25

[Remix]

zeke

[Young X]

Dwyane Wade

[pegasus]

Wow, at Dirk over D-Rob. Robinson was just flat out a better player in every way except shooting.

Robinson led his team to the playoffs eight times in a row between 1989 and 1997, but they could not even get out of the Western Conference without Duncan.

Dirk led his team to the finals twice, and had a historic run in 2011, in which he dismantled a team of superstars.

My vote: Isiah Thomas

[blablabla]

Isiah
this

[Kblaze8855]

You put 90-96 drob and 06-12 Dirk in the same league no way in hell is Dirk considered the better player. Drob was waaaay more respected at the time than it seems people accept. an awful lot of people had him over Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, and Barkley types who are already on the list.

That said...I find it unlikely that Pettit and Dirk are in the same league with people saying Dirk is worse. And nobody seems too outraged he went over dirk so.....**** it. All these guys are pretty close at this point.

[DatAsh]

Mikan

[fsvr54]

Pippen.


:biggums:

[BlackVVaves]

George Mikan, because there would be no bigger disgrace than to know that the minds behind ISH believe the man whose dominant play originally put basketball on the map isn't a Top 25 player of All-Time.

[colts19]

Mikan

[longhornfan1234]

:facepalm


Isiah is not better than the Admiral. At no point was he even the best at his position, and the dude has a career PER of 18.1, offensive rating of 105.In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars, and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well.That is nothing special in the slightest.

[BlackVVaves]

:facepalm


Isiah is not better than the Admiral. At no point was he even the best at his position, and the dude has a career PER of 18.1, offensive rating of 105.In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars, and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well.That is nothing special in the slightest.

I agree Robinson was a better player than Isiah, and should be ranked ahead of him (and typically is). However, using metrics like PER, offensive rating, and win shares is a disingenuous way to illustrate it.

Using PER or win shares especially should be banned from usage in compiling these All Time lists. The greats that we assess and contrast are greats for a reason - they have plenty of accomplishments and accolades and don't need a synthesized metric system to bolster their value.

[Optimus Prime]

Matt Geiger.

Seriously LeBron at #11 has turned this poll into more of a joke than it normally is. :facepalm

:kobe:

[nycelt84]

George Mikan

[longtime lurker]

Once again. Isiah gets shafted in the all time rankings. No way he should be out of the top 20 and no way he's not better than Dirk.

[chips93]

:facepalm


Isiah is not better than the Admiral. At no point was he even the best at his position, and the dude has a career PER of 18.1, offensive rating of 105.In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars, and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well.That is nothing special in the slightest.

what are win shares?

and what is offensive rating?

[Freedom Kid7]

Isiah Frikkin Thomas, the greatest little man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7BmIVHdl3o&feature=plcp)


Isiah is not better than the Admiral. At no point was he even the best at his position, and the dude has a career PER of 18.1, offensive rating of 105.In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars, and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well.That is nothing special in the slightest.
He played the same time as Magic, of course he won't be the best at that position during that time. And regarding the advanced stats, stats don't tell the whole story, and relying on advanced stats like win shares and Ortg sure isn't a good way to go about. I have no problem with David being higher than Zeke though :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Matt Geiger.

Seriously LeBron at #11 has turned this poll into more of a joke than it normally is. :facepalm

:kobe:

Maybe if you keep bitching about it in each new thread it'll change.

[fpliii]

what are win shares?

and what is offensive rating?

win shares are useless

offensive rating isn't bad, but you have to look at team ORtg (individual doesn't tell you anything) for the hub of the offense (almost always a PG); same with defensive rating...similarly, if you look at team DRtg for an anchor (center more often than not) it'll tell you a lot about his contributions

[ScalabrineStan]

Mikan

[rhythmic]

Mikan, come on.
Quit fantasizing about statistics and realize that the man DOMINATED his decade.

[rhythmic]

I personally would take Scottie Pippen and David Robinson before Isiah Thomas.

[Colbertnation64]

Mikan no doubt.

[kurple]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[magnax1]

David Robinson. He really just was a plain better player then Dirk, and there isn't much of a way around it. Robinson's just plain better then Isiah too.

[Deuce Bigalow]

David Robinson. He really just was a plain better player then Dirk, and there isn't much of a way around it. Same with Isiah.
What about in the Playoffs?

[KOBE143]

I still dont get why LeBron is at 11.. Its almost the same as saying Joel Anthony is the GOAT center.. :facepalm

Its too late for me to ask this but LeBronytes should not be allowed to vote here and their opinion should not be taken seriously..

Btw vote for DRob..

[rhythmic]

then you can go **** yourself

Necessary?

[fpliii]

I still dont get why LeBron is at 11.. Its almost the same as saying Joel Anthony is the GOAT center.. :facepalm

Its too late for me to ask this but LeBronytes should not be allowed to vote here and their opinion should not be taken seriously..

Btw vote for DRob..

hey bro, who are your top 25? you mentioned your top 10 a few weeks ago, but I haven't seen your full rankings

:cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

David Robinson. He really just was a plain better player then Dirk, and there isn't much of a way around it. Same with Isiah.

Evidence ? Where is it ?


What about in the Playoffs?

Yeah, seriously...

[Kblaze8855]

I still dont get why LeBron is at 11.. Its almost the same as saying Joel Anthony is the GOAT center.. :facepalm

That....followed by:


Its too late for me to ask this but LeBronytes should not be allowed to vote here and their opinion should not be taken seriously..

...is just a great laugh.

[TerranOP]

Mikan.

[Kblaze8855]

David robinson could put up 13/6 and lose in the first round with a 74 winteam while Dirk wins the title....next season starts....hes gonna be considered better than Dirk.

Dirk isnt Hakeem or....Shaq. he had a great run...but there was never a serious "Dirk is the best player" push league wide. Be kinda like Lebron.

Lebron played like ass in the finals....second the season starts...watch the basketball being played and be honest about it...he was still clearly the best player in the world. Not like he had to win the title to prove he was the best months earlier.

The playoffs matter. It doesnt mean someone who is one of the best defenders ever while also being a 30ppg scorer who can lead the league in rebounds, run the floor like a swingman, do eurostep dunks around Michael Jordan, pass his ass off and rack up quadruple doubles plays worse basketball than someone who shoots at an amazing rate.

Fair or not....David robinson is almost a lock to be considered the best or second best player in the NBA the last several years if he were around in his prime.

Dirk could win it all...he still wouldnt overtake him....just as he didnt Lebron and Durant. You get your month or two long bump....but people dont totally change who #1 is over who won it all.

Kinda like I remember wade being like half the boards #1 after 06 and now people act like Kobe had it beyond debate.. That ring winner love just doesnt last without the year after year dominance.

[Freedom Kid7]

To be fair Kblaze, wasn't Dirk a serious 'best player' candidate player circa 06 or 07?

[Kblaze8855]

Well that depends on if "Serious" means a lot of people who arent just his fans think it. Kobe would have blown away Dirk in any poll of fans, coaches, gms, or anything else those years. What I think may be a bit different. But he wasnt gettnig that #1 spot.

[Freedom Kid7]

Well that depends on if "Serious" means a lot of people who arent just his fans think it. Kobe would have blown away Dirk in any poll of fans, coaches, gms, or anything else those years. What I think may be a bit different. But he wasnt gettnig that #1 spot.
I think I see what your trying to say.

[rhythmic]

I think I see what your trying to say.

Yes, just the many of his subtle shots at Kobe.
If anyone actually believes that Dirk was a better player then Kobe in 06' or 07', then seriously log off and never return.

Ironically Kobe outscored Dirk's entire team through 3 quarters during one of those seasons.

[Legends66NBA7]

David robinson could put up 13/6 and lose in the first round with a 74 winteam while Dirk wins the title....next season starts....hes gonna be considered better than Dirk.

Dirk isnt Hakeem or....Shaq. he had a great run...but there was never a serious "Dirk is the best player" push league wide. Be kinda like Lebron.

Lebron played like ass in the finals....second the season starts...watch the basketball being played and be honest about it...he was still clearly the best player in the world. Not like he had to win the title to prove he was the best months earlier.

The playoffs matter. It doesnt mean someone who is one of the best defenders ever while also being a 30ppg scorer who can lead the league in rebounds, run the floor like a swingman, do eurostep dunks around Michael Jordan, pass his ass off and rack up quadruple doubles plays worse basketball than someone who shoots at an amazing rate.

Fair or not....David robinson is almost a lock to be considered the best or second best player in the NBA the last several years if he were around in his prime.

Dirk could win it all...he still wouldnt overtake him....just as he didnt Lebron and Durant. You get your month or two long bump....but people dont totally change who #1 is over who won it all.

Kinda like I remember wade being like half the boards #1 after 06 and now people act like Kobe had it beyond debate.. That ring winner love just doesnt last without the year after year dominance.

Blaze, my view isn't about just the playoffs or Dirk's 2011 run. It's more about the comment of Robinson and Zeke being "just plain better".

I know Robinson is the better overall player and brings more things than Dirk to the table, but I would like to consider the playoffs too. And Dirk is just flat out better in the playoffs to me, which I have to consider a lot.

I do agree that Robinson gets underrated a lot because he mostly got overshadowed by the the likes of Shaq and Hakeem in the 90's. Then was Duncan's sidekick for their title runs. If he was playing today in his prime, he's a Top 2 player at worst.

Also, I know you didn't comment on Zeke (which is was made by magnax1), which was the bigger reason my comment was made (unless you were commenting someone else). It's one thing to mention Robinson. Sure, I can see the case or more of it, but I disagree to some extent. But I don't see how magnax1 can just say Zeke is "just plain better" than Dirk too. I can't role with that.

[Kblaze8855]

Isiah is a tough one. Its like asking if Chris Paul is better than Dirk. It isnt in the numbers...but anyone who watched Isiah knows he wasnt really playing the kind of game best for his numbers.

Plenty of times the Pistons would be going to Dantley or even James Edwards types in his Bad Boys days. He picked his spots and often shot like shit due to little but the number of one on one plays he might need to pull out of his ass in bad spots.

Dirk vs Isiah is kinda asking if you rather have an elite but not #1 point or elite but not #1 4....I wouldnt say its clear cut either way.

But I hate that Isiah has become his numbers to so many fans. I remember mini fro Isiah. Much more free.

Isiah is a guy who dropped 16 in 90 seconds to force OT. Scored like 43 in the finals much of it on one foot hopping around back when 40 was a lot....

He wasnt scoring 18 a game because he couldnt do better. He played a team game and let others shine quite a lot and it worked out. He was the unquestioned leader of those teams though.

[pauk]

Anyways, i vote for George Mikan.

[pauk]

Matt Geiger.

Seriously LeBron at #11 has turned this poll into more of a joke than it normally is. :facepalm

:kobe:

11. LeBron James

Average age of voter: 13 years old. :lol


http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/u-mad-1-1-1.png

[Kblaze8855]

I do kinda wonder how anyone votes for George mikan at all and only starts around this point. If you give any consideration to what he did....how is he not top 5? If you consider how good he appeared to be...how is he top 100?

You just mix the two and pull a number out of your ass?


There is no justification for ranking Mikan over David or Willis reed....or Cowens....or Dwight Howard. No justification that doesnt involve giving him a level of credit that should probably also put him over...everyone but Wilt, Mj, Bill, Kareem, and maybe Magic?

Just feels like one of those things that people kinda...throw a dart at a wall and decide "Yea this is the time" with no logic behind it at all.

If hes over Drob or Willis Reed....for his accomplishments...how are so many people he accomplished more than over him already?

How do you both disregard how good he was and disregard the fact that his feats are all time elite?

And dont you have to to both to even vote him top 100 OR not start voting for him at like #3 or 4?

How do you have it both ways? Just...decide 20 or so is about right because our numbers system goes in tens and 20 is a nice round number?

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/u-mad-1-1-1.png
Are those player of the month awards?

:roll:

[pauk]

I do kinda wonder how anyone votes for George mikan at all and only starts around this point. If you give any consideration to what he did....how is he not top 5? If you consider how good he appeared to be...how is he top 100?

You just mix the two and pull a number out of your ass?


There is no justification for ranking Mikan over David or Willis reed....or Cowens....or Dwight Howard. No justification that doesnt involve giving him a level of credit that should probably also put him over...everyone but Wilt, Mj, Bill, Kareem, and maybe Magic?

Just feels like one of those things that people kinda...throw a dart at a wall and decide "Yea this is the time" with no logic behind it at all.

If hes over Drob or Willis Reed....for his accomplishments...how are so many people he accomplished more than over him already?

How do you both disregard how good he was and disregard the fact that his feats are all time elite?

And dont you have to to both to even vote him top 100 OR not start voting for him at like #3 or 4?

How do you have it both ways? Just...decide 20 or so is about right because our numbers system goes in tens and 20 is a nice round number?

Excellent point and you answered your own question.... After #15 on the ranking list its always like this for me, i feel the few players that deserve that spot are ridicilously close whether it is in terms of accomplishments or individual talent/stats or both or any criteria.... and so i rank them almost randomly, but deep down i know i ranked them more something like =

#15.a
#15.b
#15.c
#15.d
#15.e

and so on... :)

[magictricked]

Kblaze, so true. That's the thing I have with these deals, it seems there are people that fail to look big picture in relationship to their votes. How ranking one player at place B effects c,d, e, f and g then they throw in a random player because he "has to go somewhere".

[Legends66NBA7]

Isiah is a tough one. Its like asking if Chris Paul is better than Dirk. It isnt in the numbers...but anyone who watched Isiah knows he wasnt really playing the kind of game best for his numbers.

I've seen this before too. It makes sense, because before the "Bad Boy" system was in effect, he was putting up 20/10 numbers, but the Pistons weren't getting far in the playoffs.

Like you mentioned, Zeke put up 16+ in a short period of time, but get ousted by Bernard King and co.


Dirk vs Isiah is kinda asking if you rather have an elite but not #1 point or elite but not #1 4....I wouldnt say its clear cut either way.

But I hate that Isiah has become his numbers to so many fans. I remember mini fro Isiah. Much more free.

Yeah, I get what your saying. Though, I think Dirk's been the best PF at times, at least from 06, and 09-11 circa.

I don't even think Zeke's numbers are that bad, they actually are pretty good. I would also blame injury for his numbers not being that great, not just different system.


Isiah is a guy who dropped 16 in 90 seconds to force OT. Scored like 43 in the finals much of it on one foot hopping around back when 40 was a lot....

He wasnt scoring 18 a game because he couldnt do better. He played a team game and let others shine quite a lot and it worked out. He was the unquestioned leader of those teams though.

Yeah, I like some of those examples. Also a nice clutch debate with Zeke and Dirk. Also finding the range in the 1990 Finals.

I think the most gutsy performance by him (maybe even more than the ankle game in the 88 Finals) was the game where Karl Malone elbowed his dome. Send stitches across his head, but still returned and attempted the last 2 game winning shots. He missed them both, but he gets a lot of respect for even being the game after that.

[rhythmic]

I do kinda wonder how anyone votes for George mikan at all and only starts around this point. If you give any consideration to what he did....how is he not top 5? If you consider how good he appeared to be...how is he top 100?

You just mix the two and pull a number out of your ass?


There is no justification for ranking Mikan over David or Willis reed....or Cowens....or Dwight Howard. No justification that doesnt involve giving him a level of credit that should probably also put him over...everyone but Wilt, Mj, Bill, Kareem, and maybe Magic?

Just feels like one of those things that people kinda...throw a dart at a wall and decide "Yea this is the time" with no logic behind it at all.

If hes over Drob or Willis Reed....for his accomplishments...how are so many people he accomplished more than over him already?

How do you both disregard how good he was and disregard the fact that his feats are all time elite?

And dont you have to to both to even vote him top 100 OR not start voting for him at like #3 or 4?

How do you have it both ways? Just...decide 20 or so is about right because our numbers system goes in tens and 20 is a nice round number?

You have to consider their place relative to their era, that's where the shade of grey comes in and I completely agree with you.

It is very difficult to assemble these lists and at some point it becomes to difficult to properly compare two players from completely different eras.

To answer your question, I'd personally rank Mikan somewhere in the top fifteen because he was a pioneer and because he won a lot in a very short time span.

[chips93]

I do kinda wonder how anyone votes for George mikan at all and only starts around this point. If you give any consideration to what he did....how is he not top 5? If you consider how good he appeared to be...how is he top 100?

You just mix the two and pull a number out of your ass?


why does it have to be so black and white? cant people just put their own weights on these two aspects and reasonable place him in the 20s?

its not like you have to either think he played against scrubs, or just dominated his era and ignore it, why cant you just land somewhere in the middle?

[pauk]

Are those player of the month awards?



Sorry to say, the most in NBA history....

POTM is not something super significant but its about the very context, it gives extra insight on how good the player was. How? Player of the Month is rewarded by KIA MVP, it has the same criteria & requirements (team success + individual performance). The player that won the most POTM in a season also won the MVP that season............

Having that many POTM and especially at such a short time explains 3 things:

1. The player probably ended up with many MVPs.
2. If the player didnt win the MVP then he probably was a top 2-10 votegetter all the time.
3. The player was maybe the best player in the NBA

In Lebrons case, all those 3 points are accurate.

[ganja0710]

Sorry to say, the most in NBA history....

POTM is more about the context, it gives extra insight on how good the player was. How? Player of the Month is rewarded by KIA MVP, it has the same criteria & requirements (team success + individual performance). The player that won the most POTM in a season also won the MVP...

Having that many POTM and especially at such a short time explains 3 things:

1. The player probably ended up with many MVPs (Yes, Lebron has 3 at the age of 27)
2. If the player didnt win the MVP then he probably was a top 2-10 votegetter all the time (Yes, Lebron always was).
2. The player was maybe the best player in the NBA (Yes)
:roll:

[pauk]

:roll:

Excuse me? Care to use your braincells and express how you feel...

[pauk]

Didnt think so...

[Kblaze8855]

Im just waiting to see when people bring up Joe Fulks leading a title team and leading the NBA in scoring several time and ignore that he shot like 28% on 30 shots a game to do it and at times in his prime might go 6-35 and be praised for it. Being a poineer(one of the first jump shooters) and a dominant player...and a winner? Great. But where is Neil Johnston then? He might not make the top 100....look into what he did in those days. Anyone giving a ****?

Because you have hear George Mikans name more often he gets the credit for the entire era and guys who were right next to him get...what?

We tell the truth about them? Is Mikan beyond the truth being told?

Far as why it must be black and white....

Because if it isnt....its pretty much nonsense. You just cant give him credit for all he did and call him a top 20-25 player and not top 5-6....and you cant admit what he was and give him top 100. finding a happy medium is just bullshitting to get an easy answer you can live with.

Its just...pulling an umber out of your ass. Thats what it is. There is no "Well...he would probably be a 5 time MVP and he won such and such rings and built the brand of the NBA" and saying hes worse than Dirk or KG.

Either the things he does count or they dont. What...you deciding how many rings count? you giving him 20% credit? Who are you to judge what titles you never saw footage of him winning are worth?

And if you dont count all of them....what makes him better than Cowens or Reed with multiple titles while just...being better?

You almost have to find a cutoff point where you give guys a spot of honor as pioneers....or just pull a number out of your ass that you cant justify without disrespecting them and everyone else.

Cant tell Mikans era "your ring is only a 10th of a ring...." and act like youre showing them respect by ranking George top 25. You just disregarded what he actually did. where is the respect in that?

And you cant just say "Sorry Willis Reed....I know you had to contend with Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Lanier, and so on and got 2 rings and 2 finals MVPs along with an MVP....but Mikan is better...even if he isnt...because he did more...even though im not counting all he did based on the nothing I know about it".

Someone comes out disrespected.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and player of the months? Saying someone has the most ever? When they started in the early 80s and at the time only one was given out per month not one for each conference?

And you have guysl ike Kelvin Ransley, Freeman williams, and so on winning over Moses malone, Bird, Magic, and Kareem? And Jordan in a 67 win season doing disgusting numbers loses out to Hornacek, Rodman, Detlef, and Glen Rice so on? Mike puts up 39/5/5 one month on a 50 win team and loses to Fat Lever for player of the month? shaq puts up 36/13 and loses to Payton? Juwan Howard, Eddie Jones, and Cedric Ceballos winning over Jordan, Drob, Hakeem, Shaq, and company?

Its fairly clear here that this isnt or at least wasnt a "Best player" thing.

It is better than all star game MVP though........

[NugzHeat3]

David robinson could put up 13/6 and lose in the first round with a 74 winteam while Dirk wins the title....next season starts....hes gonna be considered better than Dirk.

Dirk isnt Hakeem or....Shaq. he had a great run...but there was never a serious "Dirk is the best player" push league wide. Be kinda like Lebron.

Lebron played like ass in the finals....second the season starts...watch the basketball being played and be honest about it...he was still clearly the best player in the world. Not like he had to win the title to prove he was the best months earlier.

The playoffs matter. It doesnt mean someone who is one of the best defenders ever while also being a 30ppg scorer who can lead the league in rebounds, run the floor like a swingman, do eurostep dunks around Michael Jordan, pass his ass off and rack up quadruple doubles plays worse basketball than someone who shoots at an amazing rate.

Fair or not....David robinson is almost a lock to be considered the best or second best player in the NBA the last several years if he were around in his prime.

Dirk could win it all...he still wouldnt overtake him....just as he didnt Lebron and Durant. You get your month or two long bump....but people dont totally change who #1 is over who won it all.

Kinda like I remember wade being like half the boards #1 after 06 and now people act like Kobe had it beyond debate.. That ring winner love just doesnt last without the year after year dominance.
I think after the 1995 playoffs, Robinson's rep had fell of a cliff and he never quite recovered from that unlike say Dirk who redeemed himself after the dismal 2007 performance. Unfair because of Robinson's injury? To a certain extent but I'm not sure if would've ever really struck otu a couple of dominant playoff due to the nature of his game/personality (more so the former).

Robinson wasn't getting that best player in the league love anymore that he did during the regular seasons in 1994 and 1995 or even in the early 90s despite Jordan and Magic playing their best basketball/close to it. There's quotes of Don Nelson saying he was the best player in the league during his rookie year and the quote below by Cotton Fitzsimmons saying he had surpassed everybody in his second year.


Indeed, for all of Robinson's offensive limitations, Phoenix Sun coach Cotton Fitzsimmons says, "He is the greatest impact player the league has seen since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar." Fitzsimmons even believes Robinson has already surpassed Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird as the game's most imposing player. "They're all MVPs," Fitzsimmons says. "This guy is more."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139758/index.htm

I believe the massacre that took place in the 1995 WCF forced people to re-evaluate their opinion on him because year in and year out, he wasn't quite getting the job done in the playoffs and the fact that it took a performance of that magnitude by Hakeem is also telling of the difference between the eras in regards to the microcosm in which players are talked about, criticized, ect.

In today's world, I believe he gets much more scrutiny for his performance in the 1994 playoffs for example. This is a guy coming out of a brilliant regular season, heavily debated for MVP and would've likely won it had SA won the midwest since division rivalry was big back then, putting up monster stat lines night in and night out, putting a quad double, having all sorts of responsibilities ect but when the playoffs came, he utterly folded. I'm just talking individually here since I believe Utah was a bit of a match up issue for SA as they were also 5-0 against them in the season but Robinson played much better in those games and I think that's mainly because Sloan didn't switch Malone onto him until the playoffs.

I saw a couple of those playoff games last year and Malone and his physical defense shook him a bit. He bothered him with his swipe, pushed him away from the basket and didn't let him get to his sweet spots. He looked even reluctant to exploit Tom Chambers when he came on. It also exposed more of less his back to basket skills where he was fairly limited relative to other elite back to basket players and I think it also showed his questionable desire and mentality as cliche and subjective as that may be. I'm sure you're aware.

Here's the best players survey from USA today done by GMs, coaches, players and staff and it was conducted in April 1996 at the end of the season.

This is a large sample size as you can see and Robinson only got one vote despite having a terrific regular season (basically doing the same stuff as usual). He might be a little different statistically but that's probably due to the nature of the game as Rodman's trade forced him to pick up more of a defensive load on the boards which I'm sure effected the amount of energy he exerted on the offensive end.


1996 USA TODAY surveyed NBA players, coaches, trainers and general managers in seven
different
categories. Of 435 ballots distributed, 301 (69%) were returned. Voters could
pick teammates, their own
coach or home arena. All selections were confidential. The results:
Best player
Player Team Points
1. Michael Jordan Chicago 132
2. Hakeem Olajuwon Houston 25
3. Scottie Pippen Chicago 19
4. Anfernee Hardaway Orlando 7
5. Shaquille O'Neal Orlando 3
6. Grant Hill Detroit 2
(Magic Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers, David Robinson of San Antonio,
Charles Barkley of Phoenix,
Mitch Richmond of Sacramento and Shawn Kemp of Seattle each received one vote)
http://groups.google.com/group/tw.bbs.sports.basketball/browse_thread/thread/a4dda576ee9a6688/2769592768c9fddc?hl=en-GB&q=nba+player+survey+usa+today

Note: Even though it says, 301 ballots were returned, I believe that's for the overall survey as they had quite a few other categories as well such as dirtiest player, toughest arena, favorite to win the title ect. In this particular poll, it's sample size of 193 people (you can add up all the player votes) but point being it's still good enough to base a conclusion on or notice a trend.

This is a pretty telling survey to me and I wouldn't be surprised if that one vote came from one of Robinson's teammates or Bob Hill.

If Penny, Shaq, Pippen ect are getting votes and much more love than Robinson did, I think it's evident that his rep amongst his peers had taken a a sizeable hit since this certainly wouldn't be the case in either 1994 or 1995 although obviously a guy like Penny improved in 1996 bulking up, maturing, having more of a role in the offense early in the year with Shaq out ect. But I doubt 1996 Penny does better in such a survey than Robinson would've done in 1994 or 1995.

So my question is do you think the perception of Robinson in the poll above is unfair or if Robinson had declined or because people finally started to realize his flaws and judge him accordingly?

To me, it's the very last one and one of the matters where all you can say is hindsight is 20/20. It doesn't mean that two years later in 1996, 1994 David Robinson became worse than he actually was in 1994 but just somebody that might not have been as good as you initially thought.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Oh and player of the months? Saying someone has the most ever? When they started in the early 80s and at the time only one was given out per month not one for each conference?

And you have guysl ike Kelvin Ransley, Freeman williams, and so on winning over Moses malone, Bird, Magic, and Kareem? And Jordan in a 67 win season doing disgusting numbers loses out to Hornacek, Rodman, Detlef, and Glen Rice so on? Mike puts up 39/5/5 one month on a 50 win team and loses to Fat Lever for player of the month? shaq puts up 36/13 and loses to Payton? Juwan Howard, Eddie Jones, and Cedric Ceballos winning over Jordan, Drob, Hakeem, Shaq, and company?

Its fairly clear here that this isnt or at least wasnt a "Best player" thing.

It is better than all star game MVP though........
2000-01 was the last season there was a Player of the Month award.
Since 2001-02 there is a Western and Eastern Conference POTM.

[Kblaze8855]

So my question is do you think the perception of Robinson in the poll above is unfair or if Robinson had declined or because people finally started to realize his flaws and judge him accordingly?

Id say it was for a similar reason things like this were written:



We're going to look back on "2007 NBA Most Valuable Player Dirk Nowitzki" and laugh. Hell, some of us were laughing before he even picked up his trophy.

Nowitzki, who wimped out of the playoffs and took Dallas down with him, as MVP of this NBA season is flat out wrong. It's criminal. Felonious.


But who's the felon? Who do we blame? We've got the crime nailed, but who do we convict?


Not Nowitzki. It's not his fault that he's a gutless fraud, a player with so much size and skill that the game comes easy to him right up to the point where the game gets hard. I'd call Nowitzki a bully, but he's not tough enough to be a bully. A bully would have taken the puny Golden State Warriors' lunch money, but Nowitzki hid behind Josh Howard, which is why the Mavericks became the first No. 1 seed to lose a best-of-7 playoff series to a No. 8 seed.



Timing.

Dirk was not a fraud and Drob was not worse in his prime than 1996 Magic Johnson.

Its just kinda...whatever. But really...

Say this past year was Drob in 96...his lowest point of respect...and Dirk comes off the ring as he did. You thinking 96 Drob is not considered better than 12 dirk? People were on here in large numbers ranking Kevin Love over Dirk. Im thinking Drob wouldnt have trouble just as Lebron didnt.

He would have that spot back before he even got to the playoffs.

[Eric Cartman]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1987/0518_large.jpg

[Colbertnation64]

Here's Mikan dominating a black man

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/241/325/ny15106021740.widec_display_image.jpg

[Doctor K]

Isn't kblaze the guy who hates on Karl Malone because he didn't get it done in the playoffs. And the fact is Karl Malone was A BETTER PLAYOFF PERFORMER than David Robinson, and it ain't even close.

Robinson is one of the worst playoff performers ever compared to how well he played in the regular season. Thats why he isn't Top 20


amen

[atljonesbro]

Kblaze is the type to praise Drob for 2 titles even though he couldn't even get close without Duncan and then turn around and say the only reason LeBron won is because Wade and Bosh.

[magnax1]

What about in the Playoffs?
What about it? Robinson was just better. They were both about 25 ppg scorers in the playoffs in their primes. Dirk might've have been a bit more efficient. But what about everything else? Dirk was a similar rebounder, but realistically not a single other thing was really close. Dirk was a great player, probably a bit below top 5 for about 5 years, but holy hell do people give him way to much credit for his scoring, which is really the only thing that he was truly elite at. Comparing him to Robinson, who was one of the best scorers, defenders, rebounders, and passers at his position is just stupid. It's not even a remotely reasonable position, and it's really just proof that people look way to much at one side of the game because it's the most easily visible.

[DirtySanchez]

George Mikan

[pauk]

Oh and player of the months? Saying someone has the most ever? When they started in the early 80s and at the time only one was given out per month not one for each conference?

And you have guysl ike Kelvin Ransley, Freeman williams, and so on winning over Moses malone, Bird, Magic, and Kareem? And Jordan in a 67 win season doing disgusting numbers loses out to Hornacek, Rodman, Detlef, and Glen Rice so on? Mike puts up 39/5/5 one month on a 50 win team and loses to Fat Lever for player of the month? shaq puts up 36/13 and loses to Payton? Juwan Howard, Eddie Jones, and Cedric Ceballos winning over Jordan, Drob, Hakeem, Shaq, and company?

Its fairly clear here that this isnt or at least wasnt a "Best player" thing.

It is better than all star game MVP though........

I agree (especially with those last words), but its probably best to just leave out POTM completely due to the difference of how and when it was handed out throughout the NBA eras. Would like to say the same about FMVP & DPOY aswell (when comparing players to Bill Russell for example).

[pauk]

Here's Mikan dominating a black man

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/241/325/ny15106021740.widec_display_image.jpg

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/I%20see%20what%20you%20did%20there/grand/futurama-fry-I-see-what-you-did-there-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-200.gif

[dyna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEoCsDKXPo


Robinson, Isiah > Mikan

[INDI]

Drob

[Sakkreth]

Dirk over Drob? Lebron over Moses, West, Oscar and Dr. J already?

:facepalm thread fail since #11

It fails really hard since 8.

My vote is for Robinson.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze is the type to praise Drob for 2 titles even though he couldn't even get close without Duncan and then turn around and say the only reason LeBron won is because Wade and Bosh.


It really amazes me sometimes how different people think my opinions are. There are people here who think I delete all anti Lebron opinions and people who think I hate him too.

And like 90% of the people ive known a long time think I hate david robinson because of my reaction to them losing back in the day.

I dont even like David robinson. I dont believe he actually liked basketball much.

Doesnt mean he wouldnt likely be considered the best player in the league these days.

[INDI]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Detroit%20Pistons/Isiah%20Thomas/GIFs/isiahthomascrazyshot08.gif

John Battle (#12 on the hawks) ??????

[MiamiThrice]

http://www.nba.com/media/finals2006/dwade_mvp380.jpg

Dwyane Wade with the best playoff series in NBA History winning his team a title.

-Averaged 40 PPG in the wins
-Awful supporting cast compared to other title winners
-Team was underdogs
-30-5-8-2-2 on 49/32/77 in his prime.

This guy had the most impressive series in NBA History, led his team to a titlee single-handily, and won another title as a 2nd option, all with some All NBA teams. It is his time.

[Deuce Bigalow]

#23 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops Voting

15- George Mikan
12- Isiah Thomas
7- David Robinson
1- Scottie Pippen
1- Dwyane Wade

[Dragonyeuw]

I'm going to go with David Robinson here at 23.

Honestly I don't know where Mikan fits in, his career accomplishments are outstanding but it's quite obvious his game and abilities would not have translated across the eras like many all-time greats. I guess you only go with stats and dominance relative to peers.

[G.O.A.T]

Very good posts regarding Mikan KBlaze, I will take a slight exception with the assertion that it's top five or bust for Big George.

For me it's top 15 or higher. I personally couldn't take him out of my top eleven right now.

Once you reach the level those eleven guys did (at one point considered unquestionably the best player in the World) and back it up like they did (By winning multiple titles as their teams best player) I think using things like titles or MVP's to differentiate is unsatisfying.

For me, acknowledging that Mikan was for his era what Wilt, Kareem & Shaq were subsequently for theirs is to give the ranking credence. At that point I don't punish Mikan because he achieved the things he did in a less competitive era for both big men and superstars, but rather reward players like Russell for getting the best of Wilt so often and elevating Jordan because of his amazing dominance from the back court despite the presence of so many superstar centers and forwards from the same basic era. Magic, Kareem and Bird get a bump from having played against each other for so many seasons and to have still racked up so many accolades. Likewise for the modern trio of Shaq/Duncan/Kobe.

Anyway I want to second your overall point of view and how much of a cop out it is to just arbitrarily assign Mikan a spot somewhere between how good he was then and how good you suspect he might be today.

[crisoner]

http://www.nba.com/media/finals2006/dwade_mvp380.jpg

Dwyane Wade with the best playoff series in NBA History winning his team a title.

-Averaged 40 PPG in the wins
-Awful supporting cast compared to other title winners
-Team was underdogs
-30-5-8-2-2 on 49/32/77 in his prime.

This guy had the most impressive series in NBA History, led his team to a titlee single-handily, and won another title as a 2nd option, all with some All NBA teams. It is his time.

Get the f*ck out of here with that sh*t.

[silenc]

Isiah FTW!!!!

[miles berg]

Can't believe Dirk lasted until 22. People just don't understand the game.

Top 20 easily.

[Kblaze8855]

Really dont think being a Mavs fan for 30 years skews your opinion on that?

Im often amazed at how everyone but the fanbase of the person talking underrates the favorite player of that fanbase....and those fans dont notice that they are doing the exact same thing the fans of other players are doing....and being called idiots for it.