#1 NBA Player Peak Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[fpliii]

I figure this might be a nice accompaniment to the top players of all time thread series. I'm thinking about going 10 deep, but depending on how successful these threads are, that might change.

Peak is a very subjective term as it is, so feel free to use your own definition. Generally though, in my book a peak has to last slightly more than one year (to eliminate extreme outliers), and won't extend encompass a player's full prime. So I guess everything from Walton (maybe 2 years?) to Jordan (5-6 years, depending on definition) is fine for the purpose of these threads.

*NOTE: INCLUDE THE SEASONS YOUR PICK SPANS* (i.e. 00-02 Shaq)

Voting:

22 - Michael Jordan 90-93 (Deuce Bigalow, Optimus Prime, KG215, Young X, DatAsh, swi7ch, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, TheMan, Poochymama, tmacattack33, KOBE143, Freedom Kid7, magnax1, Timmy D for MVP, scandisk_, Boston C's, alenleomessi, v1ncelis, Heilige, Owl, KOBE143, AK47DR91)
19 - Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 (lilgodfather1, fpliii, Yao Ming's Foot, lakerspng, imdaman99, upside24, Carbine, RoundMoundOfReb, MiamiThrice, lilblingy, daily, shaq2000, pauk, Hands of Iron, CarlosBoozer, TerranOP, Vertical-24, joeyjoejoe, MisterAmazing)
5 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna)
1 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad)
1 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom)

[IGotACoolStory]

Hard to argue against Wilt's numbers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Michael Jordan, 1987 to 1993.

Shaq had a great peak, and dominated the finals in 00-02, but Jordan dominated nearly every series throughout the playoffs and had the ability to take over games late. His numbers prove that.

[Optimus Prime]

Lots of good candidates here. I would probably go with Jordan. Honorable mentions to Wilt and Shaq.

:kobe:

[fpliii]

Hard to argue against Wilt's numbers.

which timespan? some people (like myself) actually put his peak as his time with the Sixers


Michael Jordan

Shaq had a great peak, and dominated the finals in 00-02, but Jordan dominated nearly every series throughout the playoffs and had the ability to take over games late. His numbers prove that.

Btw, do I need to pick a single season? Or just the player?
If it's a season then 1990-91 Michael Jordan is my vote.

ummmm, not a single season, but maybe the range you're talking about

Jordan from 87-92 is his peak in my book, but some people add 92-93 or 86-87


Lots of good candidates here. I would probably go with Jordan. Honorable mentions to Wilt and Shaq.

:kobe:

which range? 87-92 or do you think he was still in his prime against Barkley (or do you include the 37ppg season too)?

[lilgodfather1]

Wilt has insane numbers, although the pace certainly inflates them, Jordan has the titles, but to me Shaq was absolutely the best player ever in his prime. I have to vote the Diesel, but Jordan will definetly get voted in because of nestalgia (which hasn't set in with Shaq yet).

[Optimus Prime]

which timespan? some people (like myself) actually put his peak as his time with the Sixers



ummmm, not a single season, but maybe the range you're talking about

Jordan from 87-92 is his peak in my book, but some people add 92-93 or 86-87



which range? 87-92 or do you think he was still in his prime against Barkley (or do you include the 37ppg season too)?


That sounds about right. I would say up to the first retirement.

:kobe:

[KG215]

I'd vote for Jordan here, but Shaq at his peak was incredible, too.

But what Jordan did statistically and winning wise from '87-'93 was just incredible: 33.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg, .515/.311/.846, .590 TS%, .528 eFG%, three rings, 3x FMVP, 3x MPV, etc.

I'll vote for Jordan, but can see the case for Shaq. Wilt statistically is overwhelming. I really think Bird and Hakeem are in the discussion, too. LeBron has worked his way into the top 3-5/7 peaks of all-time, too, in my opinion.

[IGotACoolStory]

Aren't we talking about a statistical and dominance type of peak? It would have to be 3 or 4 years into his career.

[fpliii]

Aren't we talking about a statistical and dominance type of peak? It would have to be 3 or 4 years into his career.

well peak is more than stats in my book, but that's a big part of it

I guess I'll just list the widely-accepted peak ranges in the OP with voting, and if people disagree we can always change it

[caliman]

Shaq from 1999-00 to 2001-02.

[KG215]

For Jordan, it's hard to leave out the '86-'87 and '92-'93 seasons. '86-'87 was his 37.1 ppg season.

It's hard, sometimes, to distinguish between peak and prime. To me peak is a players best 1-3 seasons or so, while their prime might be 5+ seasons, if that makes sense. For Jordan, he probably started peaking (especially statistically) during the '86-'87 or '87-'88 season. But I'm not sure he really started to "put it all together" until the '88-'89 season and I might consider that the start of his peak lasting through '92-'93.

[fpliii]

For Jordan, it's hard to leave out the '86-'87 and '92-'93 seasons. '86-'87 was his 37.1 ppg season.

It's hard, sometimes, to distinguish between peak and prime. To me peak is a players best 1-3 seasons or so, while their prime might be 5+ seasons, if that makes sense. For Jordan, he probably started peaking (especially statistically) during the '86-'87 or '87-'88 season. But I'm not sure he really started to "put it all together" until the '88-'89 season and I might consider that the start of his peak lasting through '92-'93.

that's a large part of why I created this thread

it'd be great to get some sort of consensus as to the years involved

to me a single year peak can just be considered an outlier, I wanted to deal with two years at a minimum

but with Jordan, at this point we're bordering on 7 seasons, which as you noted is too close to encompassing the entirety of his prime

[millwad]

Olajuwon from 93-95

[Deuce Bigalow]

that's a large part of why I created this thread

it'd be great to get some sort of consensus as to the years involved

to me a single year peak can just be considered an outlier, I wanted to deal with two years at a minimum

but with Jordan, at this point we're bordering on 7 seasons, which as you noted is too close to encompassing the entirety of his prime
It's Jordan. So his peak can be 7 seasons. You can't take away one of those season from '87-'93
'87 - 37.1 ppg, highest in the modern era
'88 - DPOY, MVP, 35.0 ppg on better efficiency than '87.
'89 - Best all around #s - 8 rpg, 8 apg, 2.9 spg. Playoff #s: 35-7-8 in 17 games.
'90 - 3rd highest ppg season. Playoff #s: 37-7-7 in 16 games
'91-'93 - 3-peat Champion, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 MVPs.

[fpliii]

Olajuwon from 93-95

92-93, 93-94, 94-95, or just 93-94 + 94-95?


It's Jordan. So his peak can be 7 seasons. You can't take away one of those season from '87-'93
'87 - 37.1 ppg, highest in the modern era
'88 - DPOY, MVP, 35.0 ppg on better efficiency than '87.
'89 - Best all around #s - 8 rpg, 8 apg, 2.9 spg. Playoff #s: 35-7-8 in 17 games.
'90 - 3rd highest ppg season. Playoff #s: 37-7-7 in 16 games
'91-'93 - 3-peat Champion, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 MVPs.

I guess

I'll just leave it as 87-93 in the OP

EDIT: btw my vote is for Shaq

[Young X]

MJ, he averaged 37/5/5/2.9 stls/1.5 blks on 48% in his third year and that's one of his worst seasons as a Bull, he has 8 seasons better than that.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

oh sweet another thread where everybody posts offensive numbers without considering the defenses they faced

:oldlol:

Its Shaq and its not even close.

[KG215]

It's Shaq and its not even close.

At least be semi-objective. Shaq is certainly in the discussion but it's not a runaway.

[DatAsh]

Shaq and Wilt are the kings of the one season peak, but Jordan's peak was much longer so I'll vote Jordan(87-93).

I call prime what you call peak.

[fpliii]

Shaq and Wilt are the kings of the one season peak, but Jordan's peak was much longer so I'll vote Jordan(87-93).

I call prime what you call peak.

I personally believe that Jordan's peak was somewhat shorter (89-90, 90-91, 91-92 is his absolute peak in my book), but it seems the consensus in this thread is that the rest of his years are too close to those three to leave them out

[Yao Ming's Foot]

At least be semi-objective. Shaq is certainly in the discussion but it's not a runaway.

Jordan is in the discussion until we compare the defenses they faced. Its really that simple. Only on ISH am I considered an extremest because I dare to consider that defenses play a large role in individual offensive numbers. Its common sense.

[KG215]

Jordan is in the discussion until we compare the defenses they faced. Its really that simple. Only on ISH am I considered an extremest because I dare to consider that defenses play a large role in individual offensive numbers. Its common sense.

No one is solely focusing on the numbers and, if they are, they need to rethink their line of thinking in my opinion. Jordan's numbers were insane during his peak. If you think the "weaker" defense had something to do with that, fine. Of course the only thing you use to compare defenses is DRtg which isn't very useful when comparing different eras. It only tells you how many points they were allowing to their opponents per 100 possessions. It doesn't tell you things like how defenses were geared towards slowing down or stopping a single player like Jordan or any other great player.

Put the numbers aside, and Jordan still dominated the league in the late 80s and early 90s. He dominated it to an extent no other guard in NBA history has touched, in my opinion.

I mean, from 1988-1993 he made the ECF or NBA Finals each season (took the eventual champs six and seven games in the '89 and '90 ECF with a still young and "not quite there yet" Pippen) and then proceeded to win three straight championships once Pippen emerged.


And, again, I don't have a problem with Shaq being voted #1 here. His case is just as strong as Jordan's, Hakeem's, or anyone else. But it's not all about the numbers with Jordan. It's not like he was putting up eye-popping numbers and not winning.

[IGotACoolStory]

I don't know. I define peak usually ranging 1 to 3 seasons (if even that long). It's basically the absolute best of their prime.

Say 100% is the best season player X has played. Peak for me would be 95-100%, prime at 85-95%, and everything else is whatever.

Although unfortunately it's not that easily definable in basketball.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No one is solely focusing on the numbers and, if they are, they need to rethink their line of thinking in my opinion. Jordan's numbers were insane during his peak. If you think the "weaker" defense had something to do with that, fine. Of course the only thing you use to compare defenses is DRtg which isn't very useful when comparing different eras. It only tells you how many points they were allowing to their opponents per 100 possessions. It doesn't tell you things like how defenses were geared towards slowing down or stopping a single player like Jordan or any other great player.

Put the numbers aside, and Jordan still dominated the league in the late 80s and early 90s. He dominated it to an extent no other guard in NBA history has touched, in my opinion.

I mean, from 1988-1993 he made the ECF or NBA Finals each season (took the eventual champs six and seven games in the '89 and '90 ECF with a still young and "not quite there yet" Pippen) and then proceeded to win three straight championships once Pippen emerged.


And, again, I don't have a problem with Shaq being voted #1 here. His case is just as strong as Jordan's, Hakeem's, or anyone else. But it's not all about the numbers with Jordan. It's not like he was putting up eye-popping numbers and not winning.

Can someone for the love of God please explain to me why they always claim you can't compare defensive ratings across eras but have absolutely no problem comparing offensive numbers derived against those defenses across eras?

Was it Jordan for which they changed the rules or was that Shaq? I don't seem to remember.

[fpliii]

Can someone for the love of God please explain to me why they always claim you can't compare defensive ratings across eras but have absolutely no problem comparing offensive numbers derived against those defenses across eras?

Was it Jordan for which they changed the rules or was that Shaq? I don't seem to remember.

I'm not sure, but I think the best thing to do might be to just report both the offensive numbers (including TS%) as well as the league average defensive rating for the year

if someone does this I'll be happy to add to the OP

[Mr Know It All]

The choice is clear, it's Wilt edging out Jordan on his complete and total individual dominance in the early 60s. Anyone voting against him is just biased against that era, bottom line.

[lakerspng]

Shaq. 00-02

What he did to the Eastern conference in the Finals those three years, was just painful to watch, even for a Lakers fan... actually, it was very enjoyable to watch.

I don't care who you put on what team on the other side, it would not have made a difference. Jordan, Wilt, KAJ. He was an unstoppable monster.

[imdaman99]

ive got shaq from 00-02.

[KG215]

I don't want to turn this into another DRtg argument with Yao Ming's Foot. He's obsessed with the stat and I simply don't know enough about its merits to debate why it should or shouldn't be used in any kind of discussion comparing players from different eras.

I apologize for steering it that direction in the first place. Here's a thread on here from a couple of years ago about it that I think has some good debate about it.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215638

[magictricked]

Can someone for the love of God please explain to me why they always claim you can't compare defensive ratings across eras but have absolutely no problem comparing offensive numbers derived against those defenses across eras?

Was it Jordan for which they changed the rules or was that Shaq? I don't seem to remember.
Considering defensive ratings require defensive stats to work and the fact they didn't keep track of steals blocks or defensive rebounds until the late 60's might have something to do with it.

[upside24]

ive got shaq from 00-02.
This. You couldn't do anything to stop him.

[fpliii]

Considering defensive ratings require defensive stats to work and the fact they didn't keep track of steals blocks or defensive rebounds until the late 60's might have something to do with it.

individual defensive + DWS ratings yes, but team defensive ratings no

team defensive ratings are just points allowed per game adjusted for pace

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Can someone for the love of God please explain to me why they always claim you can't compare defensive ratings across eras but have absolutely no problem comparing offensive numbers derived against those defenses across eras?

Was it Jordan for which they changed the rules or was that Shaq? I don't seem to remember.

While Jordan was winning MVP's and championships, can you please tell us why Kobe was unable to crack the Lakers starting lineup?

I'll wait, foot. Thanks :cheers:

[fpliii]

While Jordan was winning MVP's and championships, can you please tell us why Kobe was unable to crack the Lakers starting lineup?

I'll wait, foot. Thanks :cheers:

is your pick Jordan, then?

[swi7ch]

Jordan, of course. He is the overall GOAT so why is this even a question? :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

is your pick Jordan, then?

I would say Jordan has the the best argument for GOAT. All-time peak is debatable. It's definitely between him and Shaq.

[TheMan]

Jordan with Shaq a close second but I'll go with MJ because stats aside, MJ did what few NBA people thought was possible, win without a dominant big. He won 6 freaking titles with Cartwright and Longley...perimeter players before Jordan weren't expected to lead a team to championships, it was considered a big man's game.

[lakerspng]

Jordan, of course. He is the overall GOAT so why is this even a question? :facepalm

because there are other payers who for a short time were as dominant, if not more dominant than he was. It's a valid question.

[magictricked]

individual defensive + DWS ratings yes, but team defensive ratings no

team defensive ratings are just points allowed per game adjusted for pace

I need to edit myself. They didn't keep track of individual defensive stats until 73-74

They had individual DWS going all the way back to who knows how long but not D ratings.

That was the question he asked why people don't respect defensive ratings across eras.

Defensive rebounds are used in possessions stats, which are used in creating d.ratings. that's why defensive ratings start in 73-74 when they started keeping track of the defensive stats.

So to me as a stat it's worthless across eras because there's a huge era not included.

[DatAsh]

I personally believe that Jordan's peak was somewhat shorter (89-90, 90-91, 91-92 is his absolute peak in my book), but it seems the consensus in this thread is that the rest of his years are too close to those three to leave them out

I agree. I'd say his absolute prime would be from 89-93, but 86-93 is probably the best seven season span of any player, and it's for that reason that I voted Jordan.

If we're talking best two seasons, I'd have Shaq and Wilt at the top, in that order.

[Carbine]

Shaq.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

While Jordan was winning MVP's and championships, can you please tell us why Kobe was unable to crack the Lakers starting lineup?

I'll wait, foot. Thanks :cheers:

Kobe was a teenager and the Lakers starting SG was an all star.

:confusedshrug:

Are you high? What does your question have to do with the topic or anything I posted in this thread?

[Poochymama]

Jordan 87-93.

Was 99% as dominant as Shaq from 99-02, but over a 7 year span.

[fpliii]

I need to edit myself. They didn't keep track of individual defensive stats until 73-74

They had individual DWS going all the way back to who knows how long but not D ratings.

That was the question he asked why people don't respect defensive ratings across eras.

Defensive rebounds are used in possessions stats, which are used in creating d.ratings. that's why defensive ratings start in 73-74 when they started keeping track of the defensive stats.

So to me as a stat it's worthless across eras because there's a huge era not included.

hm, I guess we're each entitled to our own opinions then

league average offensive rebound percentage is relatively constant in league history, so I believe their regression produces defensive ratings are within

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe was a teenager and the Lakers starting SG was an all star.

Jordan was past his prime, an all-star like Kobe in 1998, yet doubled his scoring average vs. the Jazz in the postseason.

What happened there? :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan was past his prime, an all-star like Kobe in 1998, yet doubled his scoring average vs. the Jazz in the postseason.

What happened there? :confusedshrug:

What does that have to do with the topic? Do you want me to say 6th championship winning Michael Jordan was better than 19 year old Kobe Bryant coming off of the bench?

:applause: :bowdown: :applause: :bowdown:

Is there a point you are trying and failing to make?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

shAq

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What does that have to do with the topic? Do you want me to say 6th championship winning Michael Jordan was better than 19 year old Kobe Bryant coming off of the bench?

I'm addressing your post. Kobe faced the same defense MJ did and was outscored by at least 20ppg. That's not better foot...it's MILES better.

We all know Kobe played nearly HALF the 90s, yet not even ONCE could he manage a 40pt game in the 90s. In fact, Kobe was outscored in career matchups by Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, and J.R. Rider. 

Anything? :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm addressing your post. Kobe faced the same defense MJ did and was outscored by at least 20ppg. That's not better foot...it's MILES better.

We all know Kobe played nearly HALF the 90s, yet not even ONCE could he manage a 40pt game in the 90s. In fact, Kobe was outscored in career matchups by Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, and J.R. Rider. 

What does that have to with my selection of prime Shaq over prime Jordan?

Teenage Kobe has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What does that have to with my selection of prime Shaq over prime Jordan?

Teenage Kobe has absolutely nothing to do with it.

You brought up "defensive ratings" or lack there of in Jordan's era. Kobe (your favorite player) played half a decade in the 90's.

Keep up, Foot.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You brought up "defensive ratings" or lack there of in Jordan's era. Kobe (your favorite player) played half a decade in the 90's.

Keep up, Foot.

Also false. I brought up defense in general. Your comments are completely off topic and not remotely interesting. Teenage Kobe wasn't a legendary player or even a great player. If you think its a knock on Kobe that he didn't light up the league at the same age most other legends were playing most of their games against college teams featuring zero future NBA players then you are even dumber than I thought.

:biggums:

[tmacattack33]

Peak MJ

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Also false. I brought up defense in general.


oh sweet another thread where everybody posts offensive numbers without considering the defenses they faced

:oldlol:

Its Shaq and its not even close.

After about 4 or 5 votes for Jordan. No agenda at all, right? :oldlol:


Your comments are completely off topic and not remotely interesting. Teenage Kobe wasn't a legendary player or even a great player. If you think its a knock on Kobe that he didn't light up the league at the same age most other legends were playing most of their games against college teams featuring zero future NBA players then you are even dumber than I thought.

Aww, little baby need a diaper change? Are you upset that Kobe was a ROLEPLAYER for his first ring posting a pitiful 15.6 ppg on 37% shooting in the 2000 finals? Just remember, he was outplayed by Jalen and Reggie...90s players.

[Psileas]

Voting another version of Wilt hurts his case (LOL at getting only 2 votes), but his 1962-68 span gets my vote (a bit too long for "peak", but I saw people voting for 1987-93 Jordan, so this is no different).

[Deuce Bigalow]

Voting another version of Wilt hurts his case (LOL at getting only 2 votes), but his 1962-68 span gets my vote (a bit too long for "peak", but I saw people voting for 1987-93 Jordan, so this is no different).
LOL at him even getting a vote.
0 rings and massive chokes during the span (1960-64)

[Magic 32]

Aww, little baby need a diaper change? Are you upset that Kobe was a ROLEPLAYER for his first ring posting a pitiful 15.6 ppg on 37% shooting in the 2000 finals? Just remember, he was outplayed by Jalen and Reggie...90s players.

Talk about a bad loser. :facepalm

Own it man.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Talk about a bad loser. :facepalm

Own it man.

:confusedshrug:

[G.O.A.T]

Like the idea, but I think you need to define peak for the purposes of this project.

[lilgodfather1]

Voting another version of Wilt hurts his case (LOL at getting only 2 votes), but his 1962-68 span gets my vote (a bit too long for "peak", but I saw people voting for 1987-93 Jordan, so this is no different).
The lack of titles during that span is why he didn't get my vote. He put up great, although inflated averages, but so did Shaq, and Jordan, and they have at least 3 titles each in their "peak". Wilt was great, but dominance isn't dominance if it doesn't lead to titles.

[KG215]

Again, I just can't take Yao Ming's Foot seriously when it comes to his obsession with DRtg. I'm not saying it's not a useful stat or anything, but the way he uses it just rubs me the wrong way.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215638


I just looked up Defensive Ratings from 1988 to today. What a ****ing joke this is. The 89 Pistons came in ranked 225th.
The 92 Bulls? 211th
The 97 Bulls? 205th

The highest ranked Jordan/Pippen Bulls team was the old ass 97-98 team where Pippen missed half the season -- at 38th.

The 03 Sacramento Kings? 27th!!!

The 04 New Jersey NETS -- 10th!

The 94 Knicks are 14th, but the team that BEAT them are ranked 65th!

Get this. The 03 Nuggets, who won all of 17 games is ranked 63rd. That's right. 17-65 and they are ranked SIXTY-THIRD best defense since 1988! Higher than any of the 90's champions except for the old, injured 98 Bulls that barely held it together. What a f*cking joke.

And this dude keeps shoving this stat up everyone's ass like it means something.

And don't feed me any of your "those teams were better at limiting their opponent's points per 100 possessions" bullshit. I want a straight up yes or no, black and white answer. Do you feel the 17 win 2003 Denver Nuggets were a better defensive team than the Jordan/Pippen Bulls teams of the 90s? What about the Bad Boy Pistons?

Because it seems like most of the time I see you using DRtg, it's to definitively say the defenses Kobe faced were better than the defenses Jordan faced. I mean like it's so cut and dry and inarguable.


Anyway, fpliii...I'm leaning more towards saying Jordan's peak was '89-'90 through '92-'93.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Again, I just can't take Yao Ming's Foot seriously when it comes to his obsession with DRtg. I'm not saying it's not a useful stat or anything, but the way he uses it just rubs me the wrong way.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215638



And don't feed me any of your "those teams were better at limiting their opponent's points per 100 possessions" bullshit. I want a straight up yes or no, black and white answer. Do you feel the 17 win 2003 Denver Nuggets were a better defensive team than the Jordan/Pippen Bulls teams of the 90s? What about the Bad Boy Pistons?

Because it seems like most of the time I see you using DRtg, it's to definitively say the defenses Kobe faced were better than the defenses Jordan faced. I mean like it's so cut and dry and inarguable.


Anyway, fpliii...I'm leaning more towards saying Jordan's peak was '89-'90 through '92-'93.

Yep, kid is a clown. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kind of not fair to use 7 seasons for MJ and much shorter periods for other players, even though all 7 of those seasons for MJ do match up favorably to any season in history. Point being, '87-'93 were not all PEAK seasons. I'd say his peak was '89-'92, '90-'92, or '90-'93.

[Psileas]

LOL at him even getting a vote.
0 rings and massive chokes during the span (1960-64)


The lack of titles during that span is why he didn't get my vote. He put up great, although inflated averages, but so did Shaq, and Jordan, and they have at least 3 titles each in their "peak". Wilt was great, but dominance isn't dominance if it doesn't lead to titles.

Rrrrrright. Which is why, say, 1961-1965 Russell, with 5/5 titles, potentially 5/5 F.MVP's, 4/5 MVP's and potentially multiple DPOY's got all those votes...
And if dominance isn't dominance when it doesn't lead to titles, what the heck does 1987-90 Jordan want there?

[fpliii]

Voting another version of Wilt hurts his case (LOL at getting only 2 votes), but his 1962-68 span gets my vote (a bit too long for "peak", but I saw people voting for 1987-93 Jordan, so this is no different).

I removed the years since people can't seem to agree; the other Wilt voters (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All) should come back to come to an agreement


Like the idea, but I think you need to define peak for the purposes of this project.

I agree...what's your recommendation? As I said, I'm not terribly comfortable with one year (leaves it open to extreme outliers), but MJ's listing is too long. I'd say 2 year minimum, 5 year maximum.


Again, I just can't take Yao Ming's Foot seriously when it comes to his obsession with DRtg. I'm not saying it's not a useful stat or anything, but the way he uses it just rubs me the wrong way.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215638



And don't feed me any of your "those teams were better at limiting their opponent's points per 100 possessions" bullshit. I want a straight up yes or no, black and white answer. Do you feel the 17 win 2003 Denver Nuggets were a better defensive team than the Jordan/Pippen Bulls teams of the 90s? What about the Bad Boy Pistons?

Because it seems like most of the time I see you using DRtg, it's to definitively say the defenses Kobe faced were better than the defenses Jordan faced. I mean like it's so cut and dry and inarguable.


Anyway, fpliii...I'm leaning more towards saying Jordan's peak was '89-'90 through '92-'93.

that's fine with me, though would that change posters' voting? feel free to chime in, MJ voters


Kind of not fair to use 7 seasons for MJ and much shorter periods for other players, even though all 7 of those seasons for MJ do match up favorably to any season in history. Point being, '87-'93 were not all PEAK seasons. I'd say his peak was '89-'92, '90-'92, or '90-'93.

yep, we need some agreement here; personally I have his peak as 89-92, but I didn't pick him so my vote isn't worth much


Rrrrrright. Which is why, say, 1961-1965 Russell, with 5/5 titles, potentially 5/5 F.MVP's, 4/5 MVP's and potentially multiple DPOY's got all those votes...
And if dominance isn't dominance when it doesn't lead to titles, what the heck does 1987-90 Jordan want there?

you've raised valid objections; I'm interested in this discussion

[Psileas]

I removed the years since people can't seem to agree; the other Wilt voters (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All) should come back to come to an agreement

As mind-blowing Wilt's ppg averages in 1962 and 1963 were, the consensus among experts is that his 1964-68 period was the best one - taking better shots, improving defensively, passing more, doing basically everything at least as good as in 1960-62 (except shooting FT's). So, for 5 year spans, 1964-68 Wilt takes my vote.

[DatAsh]

As mind-blowing Wilt's ppg averages in 1962 and 1963 were, the consensus among experts is that his 1964-68 period was the best one - taking better shots, improving defensively, passing more, doing basically everything at least as good as in 1960-62. So, for 5 year spans, 1964-68 Wilt takes my vote.

Only thing he didn't do was take as many shots.

[fpliii]

As mind-blowing Wilt's ppg averages in 1962 and 1963 were, the consensus among experts is that his 1964-68 period was the best one - taking better shots, improving defensively, passing more, doing basically everything at least as good as in 1960-62 (except shooting FT's). So, for 5 year spans, 1964-68 Wilt takes my vote.

I personally have his peak as 65-68 (as in, 64-65, 65-66, 66-67, 67-68), but I might be overweighting those Sixers years

unfortunately for Wilt though, for my second thousand posts my avatar will be Bill Russell (had Shaq from 0-999)

[KOBE143]

Michael Jordan, 1987 to 1993.

Shaq had a great peak, and dominated the finals in 00-02, but Jordan dominated nearly every series throughout the playoffs and had the ability to take over games late. His numbers prove that.
this

Shaq only dominated the finals.. It was Kobe who performed better or atleast equal to Shaq for the rest of the playoffs..

Vote for Mike..

[MiamiThrice]

00-02 Shaq
http://www.realsea.net/photo/Shaquille-O-Neal29245.jpg

Way better than any year Jordan. This guy was a defensive anchor on top of being the biggest mismatch in NBA History. There isn't one guy in the entire history of the league that can stop him from averaging 30+ when he really wanted to. Look at him ass****ing Dikembe Mutombo CURRENT DPOY in the Finals. He also routinely made Ben Wallace(this generations best overall defensive player) his bitch. He kept more coaches up at night than any other player in the history of the league.

[iamgine]

00-02 Shaq

Way better than any year Jordan. This guy was a defensive anchor on top of being the biggest mismatch in NBA History. There isn't one guy in the entire history of the league that can stop him from averaging 30+ when he really wanted to. Look at him ass****ing Dikembe Mutombo CURRENT DPOY in the Finals. He also routinely made Ben Wallace(this generations best overall defensive player) his bitch. He kept more coaches up at night than any other player in the history of the league.
Maybe that's cause all the other top centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing were old/retired. With Mutombo/Ben, Shaq don't need to worry much about the defensive end because they were not good offensive players. IIRC, Hakeem outplayed younger Shaq a lot.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Again, I just can't take Yao Ming's Foot seriously when it comes to his obsession with DRtg. I'm not saying it's not a useful stat or anything, but the way he uses it just rubs me the wrong way.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215638



And don't feed me any of your "those teams were better at limiting their opponent's points per 100 possessions" bullshit. I want a straight up yes or no, black and white answer. Do you feel the 17 win 2003 Denver Nuggets were a better defensive team than the Jordan/Pippen Bulls teams of the 90s? What about the Bad Boy Pistons?

Because it seems like most of the time I see you using DRtg, it's to definitively say the defenses Kobe faced were better than the defenses Jordan faced. I mean like it's so cut and dry and inarguable.


Anyway, fpliii...I'm leaning more towards saying Jordan's peak was '89-'90 through '92-'93.

I don't know how I am supposed to rank a defense that I have no recollection of watching if I'm not allowed to consider how successful offenses were at scoring on a per possession basis against them for the year. :confusedshrug:

[7_cody]

this

Shaq only dominated the finals.. It was Kobe who performed better or atleast equal to Shaq for the rest of the playoffs..

Vote for Mike..

Well Basketball can be a game of mismatches. In the Finals we faced the Pacers, 76ers, and the Nets

Shaq had a huge mismatch in every one of those series' -- of course he's going to get great stats

I'm not saying Kobe was our most important player, he wasn't, but Kobe was capable of whatever great stats he wanted -- just didn't need them, we played to our advantages in order to win

That's why sometimes Kobe got his, but in all three Finals Shaq got his

[daily]

Maybe that's cause all the other top centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing were old/retired. With Mutombo/Ben, Shaq don't need to worry much about the defensive end because they were not good offensive players. IIRC, Hakeem outplayed younger Shaq a lot.Shaq at his peak would have destroyed any of those guys. You can't penalize a player because of a perceived lack of competition at his position.

When you're discussing the best at their peak there was almost always a lack of peers.

[magnax1]

Well Basketball can be a game of mismatches. In the Finals we faced the Pacers, 76ers, and the Nets

Shaq had a huge mismatch in every one of those series' -- of course he's going to get great stats

I'm not saying Kobe was our most important player, he wasn't, but if Kobe was capable of whatever great stats he wanted -- just didn't need them, we played to our advantages in order to win

That's why sometimes Kobe got his, but in all three Finals Shaq got his
Why are the 76ers a mismatch? Dikembe Mutumbo was pretty much the best post defender in the league. At the very least he was top top tier.

[iamgine]

Shaq at his peak would have destroyed any of those guys. You can't penalize a player because of a perceived lack of competition at his position.

When you're discussing the best at their peak there was almost always a lack of peers.
Shaq at his peak wasn't that different than his prime just years earlier.

[Freedom Kid7]

Ah, ripping off realgm I see.

I'll go with '91 Jordan. Did everything correctly and properly, led a great team, etc.

[7_cody]

Shaq at his peak would have destroyed any of those guys. You can't penalize a player because of a perceived lack of competition at his position.

When you're discussing the best at their peak there was almost always a lack of peers.

Really? I also think Shaq > Hakeem in their prime, but it's not so far apart that Hakeem would get "destroyed"

Some games Hakeem would get his easily, these are two of the best centers of all time

[MiamiThrice]

Maybe that's cause all the other top centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing were old/retired. With Mutombo/Ben, Shaq don't need to worry much about the defensive end because they were not good offensive players. IIRC, Hakeem outplayed younger Shaq a lot.

So?

Shaq was a very good post defender. Nobody, NOBODY could back Shaq down. His length was insane, he was the strongest player in league history, and relatively quick for a guy his size. Hakeem/Robinson/whoever would have had a very hard time with 00 Shaq. They would lose the position battle every single time, and they would be forced to post up from awkwardly far spots from the hoop. Their only hope would be if the ref was calling puss fouls because of Shaqs otherworldly strength.

And by Hakeem "outplaying" Shaq your talking about Sophomore Shaq on the Magic and Hakeem in his prime. This thread is about peak play. I don't care about young Shaq, we're talking about Peak Shaq.

Next.

[lilblingy]

Shaq!! dude took a dump on the league in the early 2k(00-02), ridiculous that he only won 1 MVP.

[daily]

Really? I also think Shaq > Hakeem in their prime, but it's not so far apart that Hakeem would get "destroyed"

Some games Hakeem would get his easily, these are two of the best centers of all timeI'm in the Hakeem is overrated camp. Great center but nowhere as great as the myth that follows him

Peak Shaq was unstoppable

[Freedom Kid7]

So?

Shaq was a very good post defender. Nobody, NOBODY could back Shaq down. His length was insane, he was the strongest player in league history, and relatively quick for a guy his size. Hakeem/Robinson/whoever would have had a very hard time with 00 Shaq. They would lose the position battle every single time, and they would be forced to post up from awkwardly far spots from the hoop. Their only hope would be if the ref was calling puss fouls because of Shaqs otherworldly strength.

And by Hakeem "outplaying" Shaq your talking about Sophomore Shaq on the Magic and Hakeem in his prime. This thread is about peak play. I don't care about young Shaq, we're talking about Peak Shaq.

Next.
:biggums:

[iamgine]

So?

Shaq was a very good post defender. Nobody, NOBODY could back Shaq down. His length was insane, he was the strongest player in league history, and relatively quick for a guy his size. Hakeem/Robinson/whoever would have had a very hard time with 00 Shaq. They would lose the position battle every single time, and they would be forced to post up from awkwardly far spots from the hoop. Their only hope would be if the ref was calling puss fouls because of Shaqs otherworldly strength.

And by Hakeem "outplaying" Shaq your talking about Sophomore Shaq on the Magic and Hakeem in his prime. This thread is about peak play. I don't care about young Shaq, we're talking about Peak Shaq.

Next.
Peak Shaq wasn't that different from younger Shaq.

[MiamiThrice]

Peak Shaq wasn't that different from younger Shaq.

Shaq had a great supporting cast around him in Orlando. That supporting cast was much better than any of his Laker teams that won a title. MUCH better. He won titles with ease in 00-02 despite this fact. He finally "got it" with Phil Jackson and realized how to truly dominate. There is a HUGE difference.

If 3 championships in 3 years while assraping all opposition arn't that different to you than his continuous playoff failures in Orlando, then you are a ****ing idiot. He won more, with less talent.

[magnax1]

To me there are two candidates.
First being 89 or 90 Jordan. I'll go with 89 since Jordan said that was his best season, and to me that was probably his best season as a slasher, and the only thing he'd improve from that point is one on one D and long range shooting (which really didn't make up for his fall in ability to drive the lane to me)
During the regular season Jordan averaged an insane 33-8-8 on 61 TS%, while playing what was probably the best perimeter D in the league, and was arguably just the best defender in the league (at worst I'd say he was fourth, and putting him over Rodman would be tough to me) During the playoffs, he put up similar numbers but picked up his overall play a bit. He averaged 35-7-8, and continued to shoot amazingly well, and was probably even more dominant on defense then the regular season for long stretches. His individual series were 40-6-8 vs Cleveland in 5 games, 36-10-8 vs New York in 6, and 30-6-7 vs Detroit losing in 6. I've heard people criticize his Detroit series, but his series were for the part the same when he faced Detroit the next year, and NY in 93 (actually NY was probably quite a bit worse) which were really the best defenses he played ever. So I don't see an argument for that Detroit series having much to do with him being worse then later in his career.
The other candidate to me would be Wilt in 67. Similar to Jordan in that he was top tier in everything that year. Averaged 8 assists when only like 3 guys had ever averaged 10 up to that point (all point guards) averaged 25 rebounds during the season and 30 rebounds in the playoffs, which comes out to 20+ when averaged to a more modern pace, and scored about 25 ppg on an efficiency that has really only been matched by Kareem, Amare, Dantley, Barkley and McHale.
I'll go with Jordan by the slightest margin.

[TheMan]

This. You couldn't do anything to stop him.
Hack-a-Shaq...

[iamgine]

Shaq had a great supporting cast around him in Orlando. That supporting cast was much better than any of his Laker teams that won a title. MUCH better. He won titles with ease in 00-02 despite this fact. He finally "got it" with Phil Jackson and realized how to truly dominate. There is a HUGE difference.

If 3 championships in 3 years while assraping all opposition arn't that different to you than his continuous playoff failures in Orlando, then you are a ****ing idiot. He won more, with less talent.
More like Jordan's Bulls dismantled so everyone else can finally get rings. And the fall of other good centers.

[L.Kizzle]

I find it funny that people give props to 99-02 Shaq for his work against great centers like Keith Closs, Todd MacCulluth, Mike Candi ect and Wilt does this against Russell (and/or Kareem), Reed, Thurmond, Bellamy, ect and it's not the same?

[daily]

well peak is more than stats in my book, but that's a big part of it

I guess I'll just list the widely-accepted peak ranges in the OP with voting, and if people disagree we can always change it


This is a tough concept, you'll need some fairly strict guidelines to keep it from going sideways

[shaq2000]

Shaq, in the 1999/00 season.

or if we're listing multiple seasons, 2000-02.

[TheMan]

Shaq at his peak would have destroyed any of those guys. You can't penalize a player because of a perceived lack of competition at his position.

When you're discussing the best at their peak there was almost always a lack of peers.
Prime Hakeem vs prime Shaq would be a great match up, I'm not buying this "Shaq would destroy Hakeem" BS...a nearing the end of his peak Olajuwon ass fvcked Shaq in the 95 Finals. It's not like 95 Shaq got 10 times better by 2000.

[daily]

Prime Hakeem vs prime Shaq would be a great match up, I'm not buying this "Shaq would destroy Hakeem" BS...a nearing the end of his peak Olajuwon ass f.vcked Shaq in the 95 Finals. It's not like 95 Shaq got 10 times better by 2000.2000 Shaq was a beast compared to 95 Shaq. Don't look at the the scoring numbers offense was easy for Shaq. His defense was light years better by 2000

individual defensive rating from 104 down to 95 (lower is better)
defensive winshares up from 4.4 to 7.0 (higher is better)
PER (this is where you use PER) up from 26.4 to 30.6

These are huge leaps for a man that plays within a limited range from the basket

[pauk]

Shaq at around 2000 is personally the most dominant **** ive seen in my life...

[TheMan]

So?

Shaq was a very good post defender. Nobody, NOBODY could back Shaq down. His length was insane, he was the strongest player in league history, and relatively quick for a guy his size. Hakeem/Robinson/whoever would have had a very hard time with 00 Shaq. They would lose the position battle every single time, and they would be forced to post up from awkwardly far spots from the hoop. Their only hope would be if the ref was calling puss fouls because of Shaqs otherworldly strength.

And by Hakeem "outplaying" Shaq your talking about Sophomore Shaq on the Magic and Hakeem in his prime. This thread is about peak play. I don't care about young Shaq, we're talking about Peak Shaq.

Next.
That's all fine and dandy but Hakeem didn't need to get on the block to be effective, he could easily get the ball 15 feet away from the basket and face up Shaq. Hakeem could shoot it in your face or drive past you...obviously you never saw a prime Hakeem.

[TheMan]

I'm in the Hakeem is overrated camp. Great center but nowhere as great as the myth that follows him

Peak Shaq was unstoppable
Dude, if anything, Hakeem is UNDERRATED...literally had a ton of moves, could shoot from 15 feet (I don't think Shaq ever hit a 15 foot jumper his whole career), could face you up and take it to the rim, xould pass like a mofo, great defender, shot blocker and rebounder...oh, and he could shoot free throws. Take a look at his role players, probably the the most underwhelming team mates ever to win back to back (Drexler was way past his prime by 95).

The Dream is not overrated, maybe by kids but those who saw him know what's up.

[G.O.A.T]

I agree...what's your recommendation? As I said, I'm not terribly comfortable with one year (leaves it open to extreme outliers), but MJ's listing is too long. I'd say 2 year minimum, 5 year maximum.

I'd say 2-4 seasons plus playoffs. Eliminates anything less than Walton (and still hurts his cause with the '78 playoffs) and limits it to a time when the players physical and fundamental skills were at their peak. Plus if you allow it to stretch too much, longevity of peak becomes a factor and to me that defeats the purpose of peak discussion.

I'd also consider accepting nominations for what each players peak is...already with Wilt's being 60-64 I'm turned off. Those certainly weren't his best years in my opinion. From '66-'68 he owned the MVP voting and had it not been for injuries one title may have been two or three.

I think the thing about this type of poll is that only the greatest players of all-time (with a few minor exceptions) will be in consideration.

Here are my choices for four-year peak spans of the top ten players:

Jordan '90-'93
Russell '62'-'65
Wilt '65'-'68
Kareem '77-'80
Magic '87'-'90
Bird '84-'87
Shaq '99-'02
Duncan '02-'05
Kobe '06-'09
Hakeem '93-'96

Beyond that some others worthy of consideration for the top ten (excluding Mikan because it's not worth the time)

Doctor J '74-'77
West '69-'72
Moses '80-'83
Walton '77-'78
LeBron '09-'12
================
Honorable Mention
================
Barkley '90-'93
Baylor '59-'62
Oscar '62-'65
Frazier '70-'73
Cowens '73-'76
Pettit '56-'59
McAdoo '74-'76
Gervin '79-'82
Nash '05-'08

[CarlosBoozer]

shaq 2000-2002
http://sports.cntv.cn/20111013/images/1318488882909_2551361_550x550_0.jpg

[Timmy D for MVP]

Jordan.

[fpliii]

I'd say 2-4 seasons plus playoffs. Eliminates anything less than Walton (and still hurts his cause with the '78 playoffs) and limits it to a time when the players physical and fundamental skills were at their peak. Plus if you allow it to stretch too much, longevity of peak becomes a factor and to me that defeats the purpose of peak discussion.

I'd also consider accepting nominations for what each players peak is...already with Wilt's being 60-64 I'm turned off. Those certainly weren't his best years in my opinion. From '66-'68 he owned the MVP voting and had it not been for injuries one title may have been two or three.

I think the thing about this type of poll is that only the greatest players of all-time (with a few minor exceptions) will be in consideration.

Here are my choices for four-year peak spans of the top ten players:

Jordan '90-'93
Russell '62'-'65
Wilt '65'-'68
Kareem '77-'80
Magic '87'-'90
Bird '84-'87
Shaq '99-'02
Duncan '02-'05
Kobe '06-'09
Hakeem '93-'96

Beyond that some others worthy of consideration for the top ten (excluding Mikan because it's not worth the time)

Doctor J '74-'77
West '69-'72
Moses '80-'83
Walton '77-'78
LeBron '09-'12
================
Honorable Mention
================
Barkley '90-'93
Baylor '59-'62
Oscar '62-'65
Frazier '70-'73
Cowens '73-'76
Pettit '56-'59
McAdoo '74-'76
Gervin '79-'82
Nash '05-'08

thanks for the input

I'm on board with most of these (in particular Wilt, assuming the first season is 64-65), but I have a few questions:

[TheMan]

Would appreciate your take on this:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276243
Great article.

As a Bulls fan, the Rockets always scared me because of Hakeem, I'm glad we didn't have to face them :lol

Hakeem did the most with the least for a repeat champion, anyone who says Hakeem is overrated just doesn't know basketball.

And let's be honest, Shaq, as great as he was, for the most part, feasted on low quality centers in the early 2000s. Hakeem had his way with higher quality big men in the 80s/90s...

[G.O.A.T]

[QUOTE=fpliii]thanks for the input

I'm on board with most of these (in particular Wilt, assuming the first season is 64-65), but I have a few questions:

[fpliii]

As for the end point, his play in the '93 Finals makes me certain it was still his prime. He never performed better. A 55-point game and three more 40+ games in a six game series is Jerry West good, except his team won the series as an underdog, not lost it as a favorite.

As for the starting point, watching the '89 and '90 series up close, we (the Pistons) were lucky to win in 1990, in 1989 we were clearly better than the Bulls. I give Jordan most of the credit for their growth over the next 18 months because of his willingness to share responsibilities more with teammates.




You nailed it. The Championship is the tie-breaker. Plus he was so good in the '02 Finals. In '98 he was amazing, but his dedication to defense lacked and despite having guys like Fox, Horry and Eddie Jones playing major minutes (all above average defenders at the 2-4 spots) the Lakers were an average defensive team. Phil's influence on Shaq (as evidenced additionally in many of Phil's books) is significant, especially as it pertains to defense. (Wish I had the book for quotes right now)

purely the title. Guy deserved it so much it seems unfair to cut it out of his prime run.



Got the most first place votes for MVP that year, won a playoff series with an underwhelming cast around him and by '94 the injuries had taken away from the player he was noticeably. It's a shame Barkley didn't get to Phoenix three years prior. One or two titles seem assured had he.

sounds good, thanks for the responses

for whatever reason, the other two guys who I'd expect to receive votes (Kareem and Bird) have not done so to this point; Dr. J as well, but opinions on the ABA vary here

if we're talking about dominance with respect to competition to Mikan he obviously deserves to be up there with those 6 (or 7), but I'd prefer to avoid opening up that can of worms (kblaze was on point in the top XXX players of all time thread)

[scandisk_]

http://sportsthenandnow.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/1993.michael-jordan-charles-barkley.jpg

90-93 MJ really pushed it, loved his grit and intensity.

[Boston C's]

I'll go Jordan here...but slightly

[julizaver]

Vote for Wilt 65 -68.

MJ peak is from 87-93 in my opinion. Give credit to WIlt for changing his style and become complete team player.

[alenleomessi]

jordan first 3peat
shaq 00-02 is close second though

[v1ncelis]

MJ 90-93.

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/MJ-Goat.jpg

[KG215]

I don't know how I am supposed to rank a defense that I have no recollection of watching if I'm not allowed to consider how successful offenses were at scoring on a per possession basis against them for the year. :confusedshrug:

Answer my question. Do you think the 17 win 2003 Denver Nuggets were a better defensive team than the Bad Boy Pistons and/or the Jordan/Pippen Bulls?

[Heilige]

Michael Jordan 89-93

[TheMan]

Answer my question. Do you think the 17 win 2003 Denver Nuggets were a better defensive team than the Bad Boy Pistons and/or the Jordan/Pippen Bulls?
He's not gonna answer because even a half brained retard knows 90sBulls/80sPistons>>>>>>>>>>03 Nuggets.

[Freedom Kid7]

MJ 90-93.

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/MJ-Goat.jpg
That is the best picture I have seen. Also, are we doing one season, three seasons, or what? If it's one season, I'm still going with '91 MJ. Passed good, shot good, defended good, did everything really at an incredible level. He had the complete package. '89 is a close second, but he wasn't fully developed at that point. If it's a single year, then '91 as stated earlier. If five year, then 88 to 93.

[TerranOP]

Shaq 00-02

[tmacattack33]

That is the best picture I have seen. Also, are we doing one season, three seasons, or what? If it's one season, I'm still going with '91 MJ. Passed good, shot good, defended good, did everything really at an incredible level. He had the complete package. '89 is a close second, but he wasn't fully developed at that point. If it's a single year, then '91 as stated earlier. If five year, then 88 to 93.

We are picking the best player at ANY ONE POINT in time. If u could grab a time machine and go back and grab one player at any point in his career, who would it be.

[Freedom Kid7]

We are picking the best player at ANY ONE POINT in time. If u could grab a time machine and go back and grab one player at any point in his career, who would it be.
Ah I think I get what you're saying. Then '91 MJ for reasons I've stated twice before.

[KG215]

We are picking the best player at ANY ONE POINT in time. If u could grab a time machine and go back and grab one player at any point in his career, who would it be.

I don't think that's what anyone is using to define peak, though. I don't like limiting it to one season. Yes, the best players of all-time are going to fall into the best single/peak season of all-time too, but it also opens the door for some extreme outliers.

To me, it usually encompasses a players 2-3 best seasons. Not saying you or anyone else is wrong for defining peak as one season, I just think it should include multiple seasons.

[tmacattack33]

I don't think that's what anyone is using to define peak, though. I don't like limiting it to one season. Yes, the best players of all-time are going to fall into the best single/peak season of all-time too, but it also opens the door for some extreme outliers.

To me, it usually encompasses a players 2-3 best seasons. Not saying you or anyone else is wrong for defining peak as one season, I just think it should include multiple seasons.

You are absolutely correct.

And so am I. LOL.



We are picking the best player at any one point in time.

And in doing so, we should be logical like you are saying and only vote for a player if he played at that level for 2-3 years, because if he could only do it for 1 year, then that may have been an aberration.

[fpliii]

updated the OP

I'm gonna run this until 8PM EST (so everybody has roughly 3 and a half hours left)


You are absolutely correct.

And so am I. LOL.



We are picking the best player at any one point in time.

And in doing so, we should be logical like you are saying and only vote for a player if he played at that level for 2-3 years, because if he could only do it for 1 year, then that may have been an aberration.

pretty much this

peak play to me has to be more than one year, but isn't going to encompass an entire prime

so a guy like Walton (~2 seasons) would be the minimum length, while Jordan (~5 seasons) would be the max

[Vertical-24]

I'm a Jordan-stan but I think at the peak of Shaq's powers, he was a centimeter more dominant. I'm going to have to say Shaq with Mike as an extremely close second. :cry:

[dyna]

Wilt

[lakerspng]

Ask the 2001 and 4 time DPOY Dikembe Mutombo what his thoughts are on this stat line.

33 ppg on 58%/ 16 rpg / 5 apg / 3.4 bpg

and some of the jams he smashed on his head were just embarrassing.

[Nevaeh]

individual defensive + DWS ratings yes, but team defensive ratings no

team defensive ratings are just points allowed per game adjusted for pace

And if that team's pace is slowed way down during the course of a game, their "Defense Rating" looks like a million bucks, even if they're just stalling the clock out on every possession.

An opposing team can be left wide open every time down the court, but if they're missing, the "defending" team can end having a high defense rating.

YMF, just let it go man.............:oldlol:

[RRR3]

Why is Yao Ming's Foot (AKA Kobe Bryant's pubic hair) arguing for Shaq? He does realize we can all bring up that he said Shaq had the GOAT peak when he tries to act like Kobe had 5 rings as the alpha dog doesn't he? :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

And if that team's pace is slowed way down during the course of a game, their "Defense Rating" looks like a million bucks, even if they're just stalling the clock out on every possession.

An opposing team can be left wide open every time down the court, but if they're missing, the "defending" team can end having a high defense rating.

YMF, just let it go man.............:oldlol:

excuse me, when did I address you in this thread? do you have any clue what I was responding to? here:


Considering defensive ratings require defensive stats to work and the fact they didn't keep track of steals blocks or defensive rebounds until the late 60's might have something to do with it.

all I did was correct magictricked

I didn't say anything about defensive rating being a perfect statistic, or even suggest using it

:wtf:

EDIT: your first point also isn't true, that's actually the opposite of what DRtg does; if you slow the game down, it doesn't make a difference, since DRtg adjusts for the # of possessions

[Yao Ming's Foot]

excuse me, when did I address you in this thread? do you have any clue what I was responding to? here:



all I did was correct magictricked

I didn't say anything about defensive rating being a perfect statistic, or even suggest using it

:wtf:

EDIT: your first point also isn't true, that's actually the opposite of what DRtg does; if you slow the game down, it doesn't make a difference, since DRtg adjusts for the # of possessions

Don't bother trying to explaining it man. Its willful ignorance at this point. How can some posters spend so much time arguing against a simple statistic that they still don't even understand. :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Don't bother trying to explaining it man. Its willful ignorance at this point. How can some posters spend so much time arguing against a simple statistic that they still don't even understand. :oldlol:

I'm not even defending it, but this guy went 7 pages back into this thread to take a quote of mine out of context

for the record, DRtg is what it is; in the dedicated thread, I'm posting my thoughts

[fpliii]

a little less than 1hr left

Jordan leading Shaq by 2 votes

[joeyjoejoe]

Shaq

[fpliii]

10 minutes left, Jordan up one on Shaq

[LamarOdom]

Kobe Bryant

[Owl]

I'd say Jordan with Wilt as my second choice.

[KOBE143]

Kobe Bryant
this :lol

but he's 2nd to Mike :D

[AK47DR91]

Jordan 1990-'93 over Shaq's 1999-02 for me.

A few things that sway my way to MJ:
More MVP's, scoring titles, and better Finals competition.

[MisterAmazing]

http://ocnnreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/bf97bb0349eb9a2b25efeb11b2d9.jpg

00-02

[fpliii]

So Shaq will win the vote for #2, right? Or is it going to be one of those things where two guys are neck-and-neck for a spot and then the loser doesn't even take the following spot/round? :lol

not sure, but I posted the voting to the other thread

maybe I should carry over all non-MJ votes

[Yao Ming's Foot]

During Jordan's first 3-peat the yearwise league average ORtg/Drtg was around 108 in the regular season and 110 in the playoffs. Scoring was cash money, and MJ logged around a 32% of both his career playoff games and minutes during this span. Things remained fairly fruitful in the next 5 seasons, with a yearly average rating of 106.8 in the regular season and 107.1 during the playoffs. MJ played approximately another 38% of his career playoff games and minutes during this stretch.

From the start of the Tim Duncan championship season in 1999 to the End of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers era in 2004 the yearwise league rating was 103.4 in the regular season and 103.0 in the playoffs. You might as well have hid your money under the mattress, because times were tough. These 6 years were the 6 lowest for ORating/DRating in the last 20 regular seasons and included the lowest 5 for the last 20 playoff seasons. Duncan played around 43% of his career playoff games during this stretch and 45.47% of his total playoff minutes, Shaq around 46.7% (51.5% of minutes) and Kobe 52% (and 56% of his total playoff minutes).

:facepalm

[Duncan21formvp]

Mj 1991-1993

[3ball]

Its funny because lebron's longevity argument goes up in smoke upon further analysis

Lebron averaged 20/6/5 on 41% as a rookie

That's not elite - sophomore/junior Jordan would've done better - jordan shouldn't get punished for playing college - his sophomore/junior seasons should count towards longevity because he had elite NBA capability at that time

So if we add jordan's soph/junior seasons plus the baseball year, plus 1999, that's 17 years of elite basketball capability just like bron.. so lebron doesn't even have longevity!!!! Jordan is goat by far but we already knew that

[RRR3]

Its funny because lebron's longevity argument goes up in smoke upon further analysis

Lebron averaged 20/6/5 on 41% as a rookie

That's not elite - sophomore/junior Jordan would've done better - jordan shouldn't get punished for playing college - his sophomore/junior seasons should count towards longevity because he had elite NBA capability at that time

So if we add jordan's soph/junior seasons plus the baseball year, plus 1999, that's 17 years of elite basketball capability just like bron.. so lebron doesn't even have longevity!!!! Jordan is goat by far but we already knew that
:biggums:

This dude is comparing MJ in college to LeBron’s in the NBA. Stop doing meth.

[Wally450]

What's up with these bots?

[Soundwave]

I just go with Jordan and Shaq.

Wilt is tough for me because 1960s basketball is just so far removed from anything modern ... there's like only 8 teams and like one other 7 footer in the entire league. That is unfair to him and I realize that but I also feel like basketball was such a developing sport in the 50s/60s that you can't really translate those types of numbers to post ABA merger NBA + racially integrated USA.

There is no player I'd pay more money than Wilt to see in the modern era though. Jordan/Shaq you basically know what you would get.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem was 30/16/4 for an entire decade in the playoffs and he doesn't even come up in these peak discussions. It is crazy.


This dude is comparing MJ in college to LeBron’s in the NBA. Stop doing meth.

:roll:

[mjbulls23]

Top 5 single seasons in no order

Jordan 1990 (or 1991)
Wilt 1967
Shaq 2000
Russell 1964
Kareem 1977

[mjbulls23]

Next 10 IMO no order

LeBron 2013
Kobe 2008
Magic 1987
Bird 1986
Hakeem 1994
Oscar 1963
West 1968
Curry 2016
Barkley 1990
Baylor 1961

[mjbulls23]

Also 2003 Duncan, 2004 Garnett & 1976 Dr. J.