#3 NBA Player Peak Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[fpliii]

Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 has been voted as the #2 NBA Player Peak of All-Time According to InsideHoops

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0608/nba_g_oneal_580.jpg

Voting:

22 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna, MisterAmazing, fpliii, IGotACoolStory, magnax1, RoundMoundOfReb, kurple, Hittin_Shots, Stern, Vertical-24, PoochyMama, lilgodfather1, Shade8780, silenc, chains5000, Kiddlovesnets, Freedom Kid7, upside24)
15 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad, Deuce Bigalow, kennethgriffin, KOBE143, ScalabrineStan, scandisk_, KG215, Hands of Iron, EnoughSaid, joeyjoejoe, imdaman99, Yung D-Will, Andi, BlackJoker23, Young X)
3 - LeBron James 09-12 (LosBulls, pauk, Nash)
2 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom, bl2k8)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh)
1 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91)
1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 77-80 (OldSchoolBBall)

(votes from #1,#2 carried over; bolded votes are new to this thread)

[fpliii]

#2 Voting:

29 - Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 (lilgodfather1, fpliii, Yao Ming's Foot, lakerspng, imdaman99, upside24, Carbine, RoundMoundOfReb, MiamiThrice, lilblingy, daily, shaq2000, pauk, Hands of Iron, CarlosBoozer, TerranOP, Vertical-24, joeyjoejoe, MisterAmazing, Deuce Bigalow, KOBE143, Hands of Iron, KG215, ScalabrineStan, BlackVVaves, Holy Random, tmacattack33, LosBulls, scandisk_)
5 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna)
1 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad)
1 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276387)

#1 Voting:

22 - Michael Jordan 90-93 (Deuce Bigalow, Optimus Prime, KG215, Young X, DatAsh, swi7ch, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, TheMan, Poochymama, tmacattack33, KOBE143, Freedom Kid7, magnax1, Timmy D for MVP, scandisk_, Boston C's, alenleomessi, v1ncelis, Heilige, Owl, KOBE143, AK47DR91)
19 - Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 (lilgodfather1, fpliii, Yao Ming's Foot, lakerspng, imdaman99, upside24, Carbine, RoundMoundOfReb, MiamiThrice, lilblingy, daily, shaq2000, pauk, Hands of Iron, CarlosBoozer, TerranOP, Vertical-24, joeyjoejoe, MisterAmazing)
5 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna)
1 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad)
1 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276328)

[MisterAmazing]

wilt

[LosBulls]

LeBron James

[fpliii]

wilt

same

BTW everybody voting for this ends 8PM (EST) tomorrow

[Deuce Bigalow]

Olajuwon 93-96

[kennethgriffin]

give me kobe and hakeem


why?

because theyre the only 2 guys who had top 20 all time great careers and managed to win a title without a second hall of famer and not even a top 100 player all time as their best side kick


kobe did it twice in 09 and 10. hakeem did it in 94


compare cassell and gasol to the running mates guys like jordan, wilt, shaq, oscar, kareem, magic, bird all had


that means kobe and hakeem are the 2 best at their best

[fpliii]

give me kobe and hakeem


why?

because theyre the only 2 guys who had top 20 all time great careers and managed to win a title without a second hall of famer and not even a top 100 player all time as their best side kick


kobe did it twice in 09 and 10. hakeem did it in 94


compare cassell and gasol to the running mates guys like jordan, wilt, shaq, oscar, kareem, magic, bird all had


that means kobe and hakeem are the 2 best at their best

which of the two is your pick then?

[kennethgriffin]

which of the two is your pick then?

hakeem i guess... only cause i know me voting for kobe would be a waste of time with the clowns on ISH.. would be like throwing my vote away lol

[fpliii]

hakeem i guess... only cause i know me voting for kobe would be a waste of time with the clowns on ISH.. would be like throwing my vote away lol

Kobe is at 1 and Hakeem is at 2 without your vote, they're tied at 2 each with your vote (if you vote Hakeem it's 1 vs 3)

if you want to vote for Kobe you should pick him, since for these threads votes carry over, so a guy can't lose votes

[KOBE143]

hakeem i guess... only cause i know me voting for kobe would be a waste of time with the clowns on ISH.. would be like throwing my vote away lol
this

I also want to vote Kobe but too many Kobe haters here and I know he will not get into the top 5 becoz of them.. So I vote Hakeem instead..

[AK47DR91]

Larry Bird, '84 to '88

[IGotACoolStory]

Wilt

[ScalabrineStan]

Hakeem

[fpliii]

hakeem i guess... only cause i know me voting for kobe would be a waste of time with the clowns on ISH.. would be like throwing my vote away lol


this

I also want to vote Kobe but too many Kobe haters here and I know he will not get into the top 5 becoz of them.. So I vote Hakeem instead..

if you guys want Kobe, let me know and I'll put you down for him

all votes carry over from previous polls for guys not voted in, so you won't be throwing your votes away


Larry Bird, '84 to '88

I put down Bird from 84 to 87 since that was the time span people went with in the 1st thread

are you fine with that, or do you think 88 was part of his peak? if so, hopefully someone from the other thread can chime in for the purpose of this discussion

[scandisk_]

Hakeem, peak that produced titles and accolades :applause:

[AK47DR91]

'84 to '87 works for me. I'll probably be the only vote for it anyway

[fpliii]

'84 to '87 works for me. I'll probably be the only vote for it anyway

at 3 maybe, but I'm gonna vote for him at 4 (since votes carry over, he should get voted in at worst 5th)

[pauk]

Lebron James, he had a very long peak of historic stats, productions, milestones, records, triple doubles, domination, mvps, fmvp, championship, potms, all-star mvps, rotys, 1st all-nba & 1st all-defensive honors and playoff runs and so on.....

[KG215]

Hakeem, '92-'93 through '95-'96

[KG215]

I'm confused on Shaq. Are you including the '98-'99 season since it's 99-02 or does that stand for '99-'00 through '01-'02?

[bl2k8]

Bean. 05-06-07-08

[fpliii]

I'm confused on Shaq. Are you including the '98-'99 season since it's 99-02 or does that stand for '99-'00 through '01-'02?

98-99 through 01-02

[Hands of Iron]

This.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]- '93, is when he took his game to another level. Improves his passing game and decision making tremendously as the ball begins to run through him more and more (new coach). Averaged 26/13/4/4 on 53% in regular season. In the playoffs, after killing the Clippers (check out what he did against them in the do or die game 5, he was EVERYWHERE, put up 31/21/7/3/3). Averaged an amazing 26/14/5/5 in the playoffs. Was on course of taking down the much more talented Sonics team in game 7 (made many crucial clutch plays) before his team kind of got screwed at the end of the game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9n6JJgq-E) with bad calls. He was second in MVP, above MJ, should have been MVP. Here's Hubie Brown talking about how MJ and Hakeem were playing above everyone else that season: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9-Y1fo-jJs (this is for people who think Hakeem wasn

[fpliii]

This.

we now have a tie

:lebronamazed:

[fpliii]

Include Fatal9 vote although he's no longer here. One of the greatest Hakeem supporters ever (on the internet lol). Great ****in YT channel too.

lol not sure if I can do that (voting by proxy opens up a can of worms)

if we have a tie though at 8PM tomorrow, I'll let him break it

[magnax1]

Wilt 1967

[EnoughSaid]

Hakeeeeeeeeeem "THE DREAM" Olajuwon

[BlackVVaves]

Lebron James, he had a very long peak of historic stats, productions, milestones, records, triple doubles, domination, mvps, fmvp, championship, potms, all-star mvps, rotys, 1st all-nba & 1st all-defensive honors and playoff runs and so on.....

There's no way you think Lebron had a better peak (so far) than Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, or Kareem.

With Magic (85-90), Duncan (01-05), and Kobe (06-09) highly debatable, if not ultimately better after close analysis.

But, Lebron a better peak than the likes of Wilt or Kareem? Cmon pauk, have some dignity in your obsession man. Even you know that's driving it to far. How many guys with peaks great enough to even be in this discussion choked against a inferior team in such humiliating matter. 18 PPG in the finals. You have to consider thar just as heavy as this past post-season's great showing by Lebron.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

wilt

[RazorBaLade]

Lebron James, he had a very long peak of historic stats, productions, milestones, records, triple doubles, domination, mvps, fmvp, championship, potms, all-star mvps, rotys, 1st all-nba & 1st all-defensive honors and playoff runs and so on.....

what i love most about your posts is it leaves nothing to opinion. this is what it is. when im done reading, i feel like you cant imagine a contrary opinion and feel bad for having one

[OldSchoolBBall]

Err, this is easily Kareem. Geez... :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

These look more like primes than peaks, in fact some are almost exactly these players primes.

For reference when I say a year like '78, it refers to the '77-'78 season.

Anyway, peak really implies a short period when you get to your absolute best, while prime is a longer period when most comes together in terms of skills and maturity that comes with experience while still being young enough to have most of your athleticism.

Myself and many others consider peak to be a player's best season, though I've seen some refer to a couple of seasons, which I find reasonable too because if you look at Jordan, he maintained his level in both '90 and '91. Most seem to go with '91 because of the championship, Isometimes lean towards '90 because they relied on him more and he also had the 3 point shot in addition to everything else. But those are the differences on paper, watching the games, I can say that his skill set and level of play were pretty much the exact same both years with '92 up there too.

Prime Shaq- '98-'02 (5 seasons)
Prime Jordan- '89-'93 (5 seasons)
Prime Magic- '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Prime Bird- '85-'88 (4 seasons)
Prime Kobe- '03-'09(7 seasons)
Prime Barkley- '88-'93(6 seasons)
Prime Hakeem- '93-'96(4 seasons)
Prime Wade- '06-'11(6 seasons)
Prime T-Mac- '01-'05(5 seasons)
Prime Robinson- '93-'96(4 seasons)

A few of them are debatable by a year, for example, you could extend Shaq's to '03, extend Magic's to '91, start Bird's earlier in '84, start Barkley's a year later in '89.

But the point is, there's a difference between prime and oeak.

[kurple]

wilt

[joeyjoejoe]

Tough one between wilt and the dream but goin with olajuwon

[Hittin_Shots]

Wilt

[imdaman99]

I'll go with Hakeem. He prevented my Knicks from winning it :( but I let go of that grudge.

[Stern]

Wilt

[Yung D-Will]

What the hell is Kobe's peak 06? 08?


Anyhow that's irrelevant because Kobe's greatness is embedded into the length of his prime, in terms of peak play guys like Hakeem, Shaq, LBJ, Bird ext all trump him pretty easily.

So I vote Hakeem.

[KG215]

But the point is, there's a difference between prime and peak.

But this isn't something that has a set in stone definition. Some people view a peak as a 2-3 stretch sandwiched by another 2-3 years on each side of more "prime" seasons.

I think most people get that there's a difference, but it's just how we personally interpret the difference between the two and, ultimately there's really not a wrong answer. Well, unless you start trying to say someone had a 12 year prime and 8 year peak.

[Vertical-24]

Wilt "the Stilt" Chamberdick

[Andi]

If we're taking rings and "dominance" into account, it has to be 93'-95' from Olajuwon, hands down.

[BlackJoker23]

hakeem

[Poochymama]

Wilt Chamberlain

[Young X]

Hakeem

[lilgodfather1]

Gotta go with Wilt here. His individual numbers are too great to ignore any further despite the lack of titles.

[Shade8780]

Wilt

[silenc]

Wilt

[chains5000]

wilt

[Kiddlovesnets]

I'd give this to Wilt too.

[Nash]

The guy averaging 30/8/7 while leading his team in every category(points, steals, assists, rebounds) and being 2nd best defender in the league.

Lebron James.

[fpliii]

30 minutes left, Wilt's up 20-15

[Hands of Iron]

The guy averaging 30/8/7 while leading his team in every category(points, steals, assists, rebounds) and being 2nd best defender in the league.

Lebron James.

Olajuwon did the same thing over two title runs and was a better defender than James. :applause:

[Freedom Kid7]

Olajuwon did the same thing over two title runs and was a better defender than James. :applause:
^This.

I love Hakeem and all, but I gotta give this to Wilt. Wilt at his peak was something else. Possibly as dominant as Shaq and took down Russell the winner and warrior in '67.

[upside24]

Wilt. As another poster mentioned, his statistical achievements during his peak earn 3rd.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Edit: Was too late with the vote, but would have gone with Hakeem.

Thought about Kareem, but what years would I go by? I'm pretty much using this definition of "peak" as my definition of "prime" for reference, but I'd probably consider Kareem's prime to be too long compared to the others mentioned since Kareem's prime was from '74 to '80 or '81, imo. Arguably even longer.

So should I go with '77-'80 Kareem?



I put down Bird from 84 to 87 since that was the time span people went with in the 1st thread

are you fine with that, or do you think 88 was part of his peak? if so, hopefully someone from the other thread can chime in for the purpose of this discussion

It's debatable whether '84 is Bird's prime. He was close, he vowed to work harder than ever before in the offseason after getting swept by Milwaukee and focused on conditioning and 1 on 1 moves and he did have his best season to that point and what still stands as at least his 2nd best playoff run.

But he said he worked even harder in the next offseason, this time pretty much focusing on shooting and the results were obvious. He took a clear step as a shooter and scorer compared to previous seasons.

1984- 24.2 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 6.6 apg, 3 TO, 1.8 spg, 49.2 FG%, 24.7 3P%(0.2 3P%), 88.8 FT%, 38.3 mpg, 79 games
1985- 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.6 apg, 3.1 TO, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg, 52.2 FG%, 42.7 3P%(0.7 3PM), 88.2 FT%, 39.5 mpg, 80 games
1986- 25.8 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 6.8 apg, 3.2 TO, 2 spg, 49.6 FG%, 42.3 3P%(1 3PM), 89.6 FT%, 38 mpg, 82 games*
1987- 28.1 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 7.6 apg, 3.2 TO, 1.8 spg, 52.5 FG%, 40 3P%(1.2 3PM), 91 FT%, 40.6 mpg, 74 games
1988- 29.9 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 2.8 TO, 1.6 spg, 52.7 FG%, 41.4 3P%(1.3 3PM), 91.6 FT%, 39 mpg, 76 games

*= Back injury prior to ;85-'86 season, affected his performance until seeing a therapist for his back and the difference in play was noticeable.

Through Christmas '85-'86- 23.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 6.1 apg, 3.5 TO, 2 spg, 44.6 FG%, 34.8 3P%(0.6 3PM), 92.4 FT%, 39 mpg, 21-7 record, 28 games
After Christmas '85-'86- 26.8 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 7.1 apg, 3.1 TO, 2 spg, 52.3 FG%, 44.6 3P%(1.2 3PM), 88.3 FT%, 37.4 mpg, 54 games

Accounting for the injuries early in '85-'86, there was a clear difference in Bird's shooting compared to any season before that, and with remarkable consistency. Before the '84-'85 season, Larry was a 49-50% shooter (47-48% his first 2 seasons), and his 3 point shooting wasn't a factor yet other than his rookie year strangely when he had a similar 3 point season to '85.

But from '85 on, Bird was a 52-53% shooter and a 40%+ 3 point shooter. '86 was the first time he averaged at least 1 made 3 per game and continued that the next 2 seasons. And from '85-'88, he was between 28-30 ppg every year except '86 when he was still at almost 26 ppg, almost 27 ppg after Christmas and that was clearly his most dominant and talented team. Prior to '85, he had never averaged 25 ppg.

I'm fine with '84 being included in Bird's prime, but I think that '88 has to as well. Bird got in much better shape dropping from 234 pounds midseason in '87 to 215 pounds in '88, had what some were calling his best season and he set career highs in scoring, FG% and 3s made that still stand as well as his career high at the time in FT%, although he's broken that.

I usually call '84-'88 Bird's prime, but after reading the article about Bird focusing more on shooting prior to '85 and seeing the results, I've started to think that's the more logical year to start with.


98-99 through 01-02

Why not '97-'98 then? That was clearly a better season for Shaq than '98-'99? He didn't add anything to his game between those 2 years that I noticed and simply played noticeably better in the regular season and especially the playoffs.

You could argue '97-'98 was his 3rd best year. At worst, it's his 4th best behind only the 3peat.

Shaq in '98 was pretty much as capable as he'd ever be individually. Most of the improvements were due to Phil Jackson such as dedicating himself to defense and rebounding more in 2000 and improving his passing more in the triangle. The only improvement he made in 2000 that didn't have to do with Phil is his turnaround jumper which seemed a bit more reliable and something he seemed to go to more often.

But he was more than capable of dominating the game in the same ways. For his all around dominance there's the Seattle series when he dominated with his scoring despite getting double teamed, made Seattle pay for the doubles by killing them with his passing as well as well as being a dominant shot blocker.


There's no way you think Lebron had a better peak (so far) than Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, or Kareem.

With Magic (85-90), Duncan (01-05), and Kobe (06-09) highly debatable, if not ultimately better after close analysis.

'85-'90 for Magic? I'd say Magic's prime was clearly either '87-'90 or '87-'91. He had his complete game those years, outside shot, post game, great passing and rebounding of course and the perfect balance between scoring and passing.


But this isn't something that has a set in stone definition. Some people view a peak as a 2-3 stretch sandwiched by another 2-3 years on each side of more "prime" seasons.

As I said, I know some don't view it as just 1 season. But when it gets to a certain length such as 4-5 seasons, it's really too much, imo because a lot of the "peaks" listed are pretty much player's entire primes.

For example, I can see someone saying Shaq was still at his peak level in '01. '00 has always been his peak, imo, but he was the exact same player to my eyes in '01 with the same skill set, in about the same shape with the same athleticism, very similar stats and the team accomplishments.

For Hakeem, I can see someone saying he was at his peak from '93-'95, it's tough to choose which of the 3 was when he was at his best, the only difference is that Hakeem seemed to focus on offense a little more due to the personnel than defense like he did when he started that run.

For Kobe, I can see someone saying he was at his peak from '06-'08 because it's difficult to determine his best season. '06 was his greatest individual display, '08 was his greatest all around display, and '07 showed his '08 approach early in the year and '06 approach late in the year.

Same thing with MJ, it's tough to choose between '90-'92. His skills,ability and all around game were about the same each season with the difference being that he had to do a little less each of the 3 seasons as his team got better, with the other difference being more team success because of the improved teasm.

Or KG, he was just a step better than any other year in '03 and '04, imo with the difference being he had a better team in '04 and obviously had more team success.

For me personally, I look for a tiebreaker to choose 1 season when it's close if I'm comparing peaks, but I can understand


I think most people get that there's a difference, but it's just how we personally interpret the difference between the two and, ultimately there's really not a wrong answer. Well, unless you start trying to say someone had a 12 year prime and 8 year peak.

Well, Kareem and Karl Malone may have been pretty close to 12 year primes. :oldlol:

[KG215]

But he said he worked even harder in the next offseason, this time pretty much focusing on shooting and the results were obvious. He took a clear step as a shooter and scorer compared to previous seasons.

1986- 25.8 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 6.8 apg, 3.2 TO, 2 spg, 49.6 FG%, 42.3 3P%(1 3PM), 89.6 FT%, 38 mpg, 82 games*

*= Back injury prior to 85-'86 season, affected his performance until seeing a therapist for his back and the difference in play was noticeable.

Through Christmas '85-'86- 23.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 6.1 apg, 3.5 TO, 2 spg, 44.6 FG%, 34.8 3P%(0.6 3PM), 92.4 FT%, 39 mpg, 21-7 record, 28 games
After Christmas '85-'86- 26.8 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 7.1 apg, 3.1 TO, 2 spg, 52.3 FG%, 44.6 3P%(1.2 3PM), 88.3 FT%, 37.4 mpg, 54 games

Was that the season he went on a triple double tear in the second half of the season? And I'm glad you mentioned what year it was he injured his back. I can never remember if it was before or after the '85-'86 season.



As I said, I know some don't view it as just 1 season. But when it gets to a certain length such as 4-5 seasons, it's really too much, imo because a lot of the "peaks" listed are pretty much player's entire primes.

For me personally, I look for a tiebreaker to choose 1 season when it's close if I'm comparing peaks, but I can understand


Yeah, I agree that if you start to include more than 2-3 years you're going to pretty much encompass their entire prime. It's something I go back-and-forth on. I think you could almost refine it to their best two seasons as a peak but distinguishing between some players skill, talent, etc. in a three year stretch is nearly impossible.

[Hands of Iron]

For example, I can see someone saying Shaq was still at his peak level in '01. '00 has always been his peak, imo, but he was the exact same player to my eyes in '01 with the same skill set, in about the same shape with the same athleticism, very similar stats and the team accomplishments.

For Hakeem, I can see someone saying he was at his peak from '93-'95, it's tough to choose which of the 3 was when he was at his best, the only difference is that Hakeem seemed to focus on offense a little more due to the personnel than defense like he did when he started that run.

For me, it's a disservice to Shaq not to include 2001 as I too view him as being as close as he possibly could've been to his 2000 form in terms of individual play and impact on the floor. His overall playoff numbers were also almost identical - back-to-back 30/15/3 title runs with elite defense look good together. He also faced tougher opposition defensively (Twin Towers/Mutombo, two top five defenses in WCF and Finals) and dominated the same. There was some definite regression and injury issues in 2002 but I think for some people it's hard to leave it out considering it was a completion of the run and yet another thoroughly dominating Finals performance, so out of it you get: 3-Peat Shaq.

With Hakeem, I hate to play 'what if' scenarios but the three blown calls in that Game 7 against Seattle along with what we know regarding Phoenix/Houston make me seriously consider that the Rockets very well could've been in the 1993 NBA Finals. I think Hakeem was operating at the same level and was even more dominant defensively but was robbed of the opportunity to perform in the final two rounds in the way he would in both 1994-1995. I have to include all three for that reason. He wasn't the same force defensively in year three at age 32 in 1995, but the magnitude of what he did during that particular run from a historic and offensively standpoint just simply can't be left out. Taking the lowest seeded team in NBA history to a championship, going through the top four seeds in the NBA to do it, outplayed fellow Great Centers in MVP/DPOY Robinson and Scoring Champ O'Neal in the championship rounds. That playoff run saw Hakeem asked to take an additional 5 shots per game from the regular season, up to over 26 with absolutely no decline in his efficiency. I think his WCF series is arguably the greatest there's been since the post-Merger considering a number of different factors. Hell, maybe the greatest ever considering the circumstances, the opposition, the statistics of both premier players and what you get visually. Hakeem won two championships, but that series is the first thing that pops in my mind when I think of his defining moment(s).