What would prime Kareem average today?

[Shade8780]

I think he would be the best player in the league

[7_cody]

His skyhook would still be unstoppable. He'd still be one of the best players in the league. I think his stats would be similar still.

[kennethgriffin]

the leagues rules were changed to get rid of center scoring

its a speed and guard/forwards game now

but his sky hook would still be effective at times

i think 22/14 would be correct

[Odinn]

26/13/4/3 on .560 fg .770 ft in regular season.
32/13/3/4 on .550 fg .780 ft in the playoffs.

[L.Kizzle]

Would dominate.

Who would stop him?

[KobesFinger]

27/15/4/1/3 on 58/0/70% shooting, possibly better if he played with someone like Rondo. I don't think there's a single player in the league right now that would be 1st option over Kareem, including Durant and LeBron.

[OldSchoolBBall]

25-27.5 pts/11-13 reb/4 ast/3.5 blk/56% FG/61+% TS

He would be the best player in the league clearly. But no center will ever average > 28 ppg again unless they get rid of zone.

[L.Kizzle]

25-27.5 pts/11-13 reb/4 ast/3.5 blk/56% FG/61+% TS

He would be the best player in the league clearly. But no center will ever average > 28 ppg again unless they get rid of zone.
There just haven't been offensive minded centers in the league in a long time.

[chips93]

There just haven't been offensive minded centers in the league in a long time.

so its just a coincidence that no offensive minded centers have come along in the 10ish years since zone rules were scraped? the two things are definitely related imo

[upside24]

Not sure what he would average but he would be the most dominate in the NBA. Prime Kareem would feast on any center in the league including Howard.

[redhonda76]

28pts/12reb/3blks. Who is there to stop him with the unstoppable skyhook?

[magictricked]

I think he would be the best player in the leagueProbably.

[BoutPractice]

He would easily score 30 a game or more if he had the opportunity. The question is whether he would be used that way.

[KG215]

the leagues rules were changed to get rid of center scoring

its a speed and guard/forwards game now

but his sky hook would still be effective at times

i think 22/14 would be correct

Despite the direction the league has gone, prime KAJ is still scoring more than 22 ppg. He's MILES ahead of Dwight Howard as an offensive player, and Howard is averaging 20 ppg the last five seasons and averaged 21.9 in 2010-2011.

[All Net]

He would dominate more so with the lack of good centers there are. He would tower over everybody. Nobody is stopping that sky hook.

[L.Kizzle]

so its just a coincidence that no offensive minded centers have come along in the 10ish years since zone rules were scraped? the two things are definitely related imo
Not really. These centers have no offensive skill set. You don't think a prime Shaq would average 28+, or Ewing, ect for that matter?

[BlueandGold]

I'm a big advocate of possessions per game, pace, level of play (60s compared to 00s) as well as the playoff/league structuring of the NBA. To put it simply I pay attention to detail when it comes to different generations of NBA players.

With that in mind I can definitively say that Kareem's skyhook is the one move can would be equally effective no matter what decade he played in. Kareem's height would still be among the highest in the level and along with his reach and skillset would make his shot the most unstoppable no matter what decade he plays in.

[Poetry]

so its just a coincidence that no offensive minded centers have come along in the 10ish years since zone rules were scraped? the two things are definitely related imo

I wonder the same thing too. Although it's been a while since i've seen a Center with a refined offensive game.

There isn't anyone today that has a game similar to Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, Ewing, Shaq...

It isn't as easy as saying, Dwight would average 27 a game in the 90's, since he clearly doesn't have a refined offensive game. He would fare about as well as 'Zo, which is to say, about the same as today.

Maybe younger centers are being discouraged from polishing their offensive game at the pre-professional level, knowing the heavy emphasis teams take in exploiting the rule changes at the professional level that cater to guards.

[chips93]

Not really. These centers have no offensive skill set. You don't think a prime Shaq would average 28+, or Ewing, ect for that matter?

i think its definitely tougher for bigs to post up, and much easier to double big men down on the low block

guys like shaq and ewing would still be great, but not as effective as they were in their day

[L.Kizzle]

i think its definitely tougher for bigs to post up, and much easier to double big men down on the low block

guys like shaq and ewing would still be great, but not as effective as they were in their day
They'd be more effective. if Dwight can average freakin 22-23 a game with zero low post moves. I see no reason why Kareem wouldn't go HAM on the current league.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

They'd be more effective. if Dwight can average freakin 22-23 a game with zero low post moves. I see no reason why Kareem wouldn't go HAM on the current league.

It really depends on the team around him. If Kareem is stuck with 4 guys who suck or are average... then he'd be double teamed relentless and those 4 guys would get a lot of wide open shots. And if he doesn't have any good shooters on his team or a good guard.... he wouldn't go HAM on the league.

And let's be real with the Dwight Howard scoring 22-23 a game with no post moves: he has only scored over 21 PPG once in his NBA career and only averages 18 PPG for his career in the regular season and averages 20 PPG in the playoffs.

(And I imagine he would score somewhere in the upper 20s. Doubt he scores over 30 because I seriously doubt he would get enough touches to do it.)

[redhonda76]

i think its definitely tougher for bigs to post up, and much easier to double big men down on the low block

guys like shaq and ewing would still be great, but not as effective as they were in their day

Yao was dominating for a short while before he got hurt and was considered as a MVP candidate. He was unstoppable with both hooks and was the last player who really uses that shot effectively. Imagine Kareem.

[TheBigVeto]

If he's made first option he'll average 30 points and over 10 rebounds.

If he plays with shot jacking SGs like most SGs these days and his coach is dumb enough to not realize he's the best player in his team, he'll be lucky to average 15 per game.

[Rubio2Gasol]

It's not like Kareem couldnt run the floor.

In the right team 40 wouldn't be out of the question IMO

[IGOTGAME]

so its just a coincidence that no offensive minded centers have come along in the 10ish years since zone rules were scraped? the two things are definitely related imo

they don't exist. no one has the skills to do it any era. are you telling me that big men just stopped practicing offense?

There just arent big men with the athletic profile of D-Rob, Kareem, Wilt, Moses, Hakeem etc...They just don't exist.

I could see Kareem getting 28.5/14/3.5 assists/ 3 blks

and as great as the skyhook was, Kareem's post game was way more than that. these guys wouldn't know what to do with that dropstep.

[turnaroundJ]

Although it's been a while since i've seen a Center with a refined offensive game.

Then I suggest you start watching the NBA.

Andrew Bynum, Marcin Gortat, Nikola Pekovic, Al Jefferson to name a few

Just a few years ago we had Yao and Shaq (don't tell me he didn't have a "refined offensive game").

When given burn, any of these guys could go for 30. I'm not saying they're as good as those centers you mentioned, but they surely have great offensive games.

[lilgodfather1]

If KLove can average 25 than so can Kareem...

[Myth]

28pts/12reb/3blks. Who is there to stop him with the unstoppable skyhook?

That is a minimum.

[Suckafree]

Hate it when people say Dwight has NO post game.

Dwights post game is fine. Not great, but it is definitely effective.

[L.Kizzle]

Hate it when people say Dwight has NO post game.

Dwights post game is fine. Not great, but it is definitely effective.
It's effective because the others centers suck.

He has NO post game.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kareem's prime was probably '74-'80, maybe '81, imo so I'll pretty much look at those years or maybe use the post-merger years from '77-'81. Though he put up better numbers in the early 70's.

Scoring and FG% probably wouldn't differ much. The extra transition opportunities probably didn't help Kareem much since he rarely ran the floor. While I think defenses have tightened up, Kareem was already seeing constant double teams, mid 70's-early 80's Kareem was probably one of the most doubled players ever along with Shaq, Barkley and Hakeem.

Kareem's numbers from '77-'81
25.3 ppg, 12 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.4 TO, 3.3 bpg, 1.1 spg, 57.7 FG%, 37.7 mpg

TRB% was 16.8% and BLK% was 4.5% which would probably give him averages of roughly 11 rpg and about 3 blocks in this era depending on the team.

But those scoring numbers are not all he was capable of. In the playoffs, he averaged 31.2 ppg in 40 games from '77-'81.

For example, his scoring was clearly lowered in '79 when Jerry West had him playing in the high post much more, although this did result in a career-high 5.4 apg.

So I'd say he probably averages 25-27 ppg, 11-12 rpg, 3.5-4 apg, 2.5-3 bpg, 55-57 FG% if he's on winning teams.

But again, he'd clearly be capable of more. He could average 30+ in any era if he wanted to or the situation called for it.



He would be the best player in the league clearly. But no center will ever average > 28 ppg again unless they get rid of zone.

He would definitely be the best in the league, but there have been some centers who could put up 28+including Kareem.

Shaq could do it. Hell, he almost did it in '02 and '03 with zone, and he was heavier than '00 and '01 and not as healthy.

In '02, he averaged 27.2 ppg in 36.1 mpg and in '03, he averaged 27.5 ppg in 37.8 mpg, and that's not quite peak Shaq.

If Shaq could do that when he was reportedly 375-380 pounds at 30-31 years old, I see no reason why '00 and '01 Shaq at 340 pounds and 28-29 years old couldn't have maintained his 29-30 ppg in about 40 mpg.

The 29-30 ppg he actually averaged in '00 and '01 were hardly all he was capable of anyway.

Over his final 20 games in '99-'00, Shaq averaged 35.8 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3 TO, 2 bpg, 60.4 FG%, 40.7mpg

And in '00-'01, Shaq finished the season with 11 consecutive 30+ games and in his final 15 games, he scored 30+ in 13 of them averaging 33.1 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.4 apg, 3.7 TO, 2.3 bpg, 56.1 FG%, 38.2 mpg.

Players at the level of Shaq or Kareem really have their numbers dictated by their team's system, how much their winning, what's best for the team ect.

Most stars don't pt up the best numbers they're actually capable of, there may be some exceptions such as some of the more ball-dominant roles we've seen recent perimeter players in, or maybe when Houston built their 4 out/1 in offense around Hakeem in the mid 90's.

Tim Duncan wasn't as much of a scorer as Shaq or Kareem and his high before zone became legal was 23.2 ppg in 2000, but he topped that in '02 with 25.5 ppg and 23.3 ppg in '03. So it seems that zone didn't affect his scoring either.

If a player like Duncan who isn't known for scoring as much can get to 25.5 ppg with zone then I see no reason why arguably the greatest scoring big man ever Kareem couldn't get average 28 ppg.

It's far away from 28 ppg, but Dwight averaged 22.9 ppg in '11 on 59%. He's become a fine scorer, and was quite impressive offensively that year, but there have still been much better scoring centers.


guys like shaq and ewing would still be great, but not as effective as they were in their day

Why would Shaq be less effective? Zone didn't affect him in '02 and '03? We don't even need to speculate with him, we can go by what actually happened. And even Shaq's 2 best seasons weren't that long ago('00 and '01), defenses overall were tougher and the league was bigger when Shaq was at his peak.

I'm not sure Ewing would average 29 ppg like he did in '90 because the game has changed, but 26-27 ppg isn't a stretch at all.

[dyna]

29 ppg
11 reb
3 ast
3 blk
1 stl

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I'm not into predicting averages but I have no doubt he would dominate and probably be the best player in the league. We are talking about prime Kareem here not 42 year old Kareem from 1989 who is the one that most people remember. Skyhook shits on the NBA in any era.

[Collie]

KAJ was also a physical freak. He was 7-2 (listed but most people say he was closer to 7-4), and had incredible mobility for a guy his size, as well as Mr. Fantastic arms. His skyhook was unblockable, the only way you were stopping him was by pushing him out of his comfort zone and hoping he'd miss.

26-12-4 minimum. Probably more like 28 ppg.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

KAJ was also a physical freak. He was 7-2 (listed but most people say he was closer to 7-4), and had incredible mobility for a guy his size, as well as Mr. Fantastic arms. His skyhook was unblockable, the only way you were stopping him was by pushing him out of his comfort zone and hoping he'd miss.

26-12-4 minimum. Probably more like 28 ppg.

True. Bill Walton once remarked that one thing that people don't realize about Kareem is how stong was. Walton said that Kareem was the best player he ever played against by far.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Best player in the league. No questions asked.

[All Net]

The amount of pics you see Kareem in these days you have to wonder how tall he was when he was younger. I think he was bigger than 7'2.

[bdreason]

Kareem would dominate todays NBA. So would Magic. And that's not nostalgia, it's just the truth.

[Marikina]

Kareem would KILL in today's league. Probably something like 2006-2007 Yao in steroids but without the drawbacks.

[alenleomessi]

You guys are so sure that he 'for sure' will be the best player
There is still this guy Lebron James you know...

[Odinn]

You guys are so sure that he 'for sure' will be the best player
There is still this guy Lebron James you know...
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Round Mound]

Peek: 32 PPG/57% FG/ 13 RPG/ 4.5 APG/ 3.5 BPG
Prime: 26 PPG/ 55% FG/ 11 RPG/ 3.5 APG/ 2.8 BPG
Passed: 22 PPG/52% FG/ 8.5 RPG/ 2.5 APG/ 2.0 BPG

[All Net]

You guys are so sure that he 'for sure' will be the best player
There is still this guy Lebron James you know...

And? kareem you could argue is the 2nd best player of all time... Far ahead of what Lebron has done thus far.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kareem's prime was probably '74-'80, maybe '81, imo so I'll pretty much look at those years or maybe use the post-merger years from '77-'81. Though he put up better numbers in the early 70's.

Scoring and FG% probably wouldn't differ much. The extra transition opportunities probably didn't help Kareem much since he rarely ran the floor. While I think defenses have tightened up, Kareem was already seeing constant double teams, mid 70's-early 80's Kareem was probably one of the most doubled players ever along with Shaq, Barkley and Hakeem.

Kareem's numbers from '77-'81
25.3 ppg, 12 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.4 TO, 3.3 bpg, 1.1 spg, 57.7 FG%, 37.7 mpg

TRB% was 16.8% and BLK% was 4.5% which would probably give him averages of roughly 11 rpg and about 3 blocks in this era depending on the team.

But those scoring numbers are not all he was capable of. In the playoffs, he averaged 31.2 ppg in 40 games from '77-'81.

For example, his scoring was clearly lowered in '79 when Jerry West had him playing in the high post much more, although this did result in a career-high 5.4 apg.

So I'd say he probably averages 25-27 ppg, 11-12 rpg, 3.5-4 apg, 2.5-3 bpg, 55-57 FG% if he's on winning teams.

But again, he'd clearly be capable of more. He could average 30+ in any era if he wanted to or the situation called for it.




He would definitely be the best in the league, but there have been some centers who could put up 28+including Kareem.

Shaq could do it. Hell, he almost did it in '02 and '03 with zone, and he was heavier than '00 and '01 and not as healthy.

In '02, he averaged 27.2 ppg in 36.1 mpg and in '03, he averaged 27.5 ppg in 37.8 mpg, and that's not quite peak Shaq.

If Shaq could do that when he was reportedly 375-380 pounds at 30-31 years old, I see no reason why '00 and '01 Shaq at 340 pounds and 28-29 years old couldn't have maintained his 29-30 ppg in about 40 mpg.

The 29-30 ppg he actually averaged in '00 and '01 were hardly all he was capable of anyway.

Over his final 20 games in '99-'00, Shaq averaged 35.8 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3 TO, 2 bpg, 60.4 FG%, 40.7mpg

And in '00-'01, Shaq finished the season with 11 consecutive 30+ games and in his final 15 games, he scored 30+ in 13 of them averaging 33.1 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.4 apg, 3.7 TO, 2.3 bpg, 56.1 FG%, 38.2 mpg.

Players at the level of Shaq or Kareem really have their numbers dictated by their team's system, how much their winning, what's best for the team ect.

Most stars don't pt up the best numbers they're actually capable of, there may be some exceptions such as some of the more ball-dominant roles we've seen recent perimeter players in, or maybe when Houston built their 4 out/1 in offense around Hakeem in the mid 90's.

Tim Duncan wasn't as much of a scorer as Shaq or Kareem and his high before zone became legal was 23.2 ppg in 2000, but he topped that in '02 with 25.5 ppg and 23.3 ppg in '03. So it seems that zone didn't affect his scoring either.

If a player like Duncan who isn't known for scoring as much can get to 25.5 ppg with zone then I see no reason why arguably the greatest scoring big man ever Kareem couldn't get average 28 ppg.

It's far away from 28 ppg, but Dwight averaged 22.9 ppg in '11 on 59%. He's become a fine scorer, and was quite impressive offensively that year, but there have still been much better scoring centers.



Why would Shaq be less effective? Zone didn't affect him in '02 and '03? We don't even need to speculate with him, we can go by what actually happened. And even Shaq's 2 best seasons weren't that long ago('00 and '01), defenses overall were tougher and the league was bigger when Shaq was at his peak.

I'm not sure Ewing would average 29 ppg like he did in '90 because the game has changed, but 26-27 ppg isn't a stretch at all.

Team didn't really start zoning up on big men consistently until around '05-ish, and it's only gotten worse since then.

[JohnnySic]

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Kareem+Abdul+Jabbar+Ralph+Sampson+Basketball+LlvXy Z47TWbl.jpg

^Kareem is just as tall as the alleged 7'4" but really 7'2" Sampson.

[OldSchoolBBall]

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Kareem+Abdul+Jabbar+Ralph+Sampson+Basketball+LlvXy Z47TWbl.jpg

^Kareem is just as tall as the alleged 7'4" but really 7'2" Sampson.

Sampson is clearly taller. Ralph was probably like 7'3.5" or so and KAJ was a full 7'2".

[Dragonyeuw]

From that angle, they look practically the same height except that Sampson has enough hair to add a good inch to his height. Plus Kareem is several years older, so you need to account for him shrinking slightly.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Wow, get some glasses lol. :D They certainly do NOT look the same height, even account for the camera angle. Sampson looks 1-2" taller.

[IGOTGAME]

Team didn't really start zoning up on big men consistently until around '05-ish, and it's only gotten worse since then.
They still don't really zone up big men. It isn't even b#d BC there are bugs that need to b zoned up.

This zone killed the big man ishflame needs to stop.

[Dragonyeuw]

As I said, the difference in height to me looks moreso a product of Sampson's hair adding an extra inch or so. Their shoulders are practically at the same level, shave Sampson bald and from that angle it just doesn't look like there would be a 2" difference. Is Sampson taller? Yeah, but it's not OMG huge difference.

[All Net]

“@kaj33: Great memories with some great friends in Springfield - congrats to HOF inductees Jamaal Wilkes & Ralph Sampson http://t.co/do3Urlvx

Look pretty close there.

[IGOTGAME]

[QUOTE=All Net]

[dunksby]

If K.Love can put up 26/13 on Minny then I can see prime Kareem putting up at least 30/17/4/4 on all these puny front courts, 35/20 in the playoffs :lol

[therammingman]

26-31

[L.Kizzle]

Sampson looks younger now then he did 25+ years ago.

[fpliii]

tbh I'm not sure

I used to peg Kareem's peak as his Bucks years, but as of late it looks more like his first few seasons with LA take it

both would fare well and probably be the best center in the league, since a lot of the new rules wouldn't impact him as much (in particular 5 seconds back to the basket)

[therammingman]

playing with kobe? 18

playing in philli? 28

[ShaqAttack3234]

The amount of pics you see Kareem in these days you have to wonder how tall he was when he was younger. I think he was bigger than 7'2.

He has a solid 5 inches on Dwight, and that's a good picture because we can see their entire bodies. Don't see anything weird about the angle either.

If Dwight is still the 6'9" he was measured at barefoot then Kareem is still looking at least 7'2" at 65 years old.

It's often been said that Kareem was more 7'3"-7'4". I don't know if he seems taller because other heights are exaggerated, but he could have been closer to 7'3".

It's also possible that Kareem is a guy who just hasn't shrunk yet. Bill Russell still looks over 6'9" at 78 years old


Team didn't really start zoning up on big men consistently until around '05-ish, and it's only gotten worse since then.

A true zone hasn't been a major part of the game, though I've seen it more the last few years. It's usually used more to take teams out of their rhythm. But it's not as much of a true zone that would affect a dominant big man as it is being able to double without the ball.

And I did see some teams go to a zone at times before '05. It's often been poor defensive teams that tried it. KG's Wolves use to go to it sometimes when Saunders was coaching them.

I stand by some being able to average 28+. Both Kareem and Shaq come to mind.

Yao was averaging 27/10 before his injury in the first 26 games of the '06-'07 season and in the second half of the '05-'06 season, Yao averaged 26/12 in 25 games.

The league has also gotten smaller on average since the 90's and early 00's which is something I believe makes it easier for great post players to dominate.


Sampson is clearly taller. Ralph was probably like 7'3.5" or so and KAJ was a full 7'2".

I agree that Sampson looks taller there, but looking taller in one picture doesn't necessarily tell us what the height difference was.

I remember a video of Chick Hearn interviewing Mark Eaton, and Eaton said that he was just under 7'4", like 7'3 3/4" or something and that Sampson was about 2 inches shorter than he was and no way was Sampson 7'4".

I'd guess Sampson is either 7'2" or 7'3". But if you remember, Hakeem was often said to be 6'10", and there didn't seem to be as big of a difference as you'd expect. Didn't seem to be more than a 4 inch difference, iirc. In fact, the difference between Sampson and Hakeem didn't really seem much bigger than the difference between Shaq and Hakeem.


I used to peg Kareem's peak as his Bucks years, but as of late it looks more like his first few seasons with LA take it

Agreed. I used to make the mistake of putting too much into stats, but when you start talking about players of Kareem's caliber, stats really don't mean anything. Especially since the league was changing, there's the pre-merger, post-merger factor as well as expansion and as Kareem said, he was guarded 1 on 1 most of the time his first 4-5 seasons, then doubled constantly at the time of this quote('77), and from game footage this seems to be accurate.

Kareem himself first said he was at his best in '77 and later in '80. I tend to think '77 was his peak.

The reason why I'm convinced Kareem is better is because by the late 70's, even 1980, he didn't seem like he had lost, much if any athleticism. Certainly not anything that affected his ability to perform on the court. But without any real loss we saw some additions to his game. Early on it, it was pretty much just the sky hook, not that he needed much else, but adding a turnaround jumper which was pretty good, in addition to a left-handed hook and a baseline spin when they overplayed him going to the sky hook in the lane certainly made him better, imo. While I've seen some nice passes from Kareem as early as '70-'71 games, I believe he improved that as well. He's also mentioned becoming a smarter player by the late 70's, and he seemed to get stronger as well. Strength seemed to be the weakness you could exploit early on.

If you look at '74-'80, Kareem fared much better in the playoffs than '70-'73. Although he did dominate individually in the '70 playoffs, but part of this was probably due to Philly's lack of size and in the NY series, I did read that some of his numbers came late after the game had pretty much been decided, but his performance in the series was generally praised by the Knicks.

But that's where I've found that the additions to a player's game are the most noticeable, the playoffs, and it's because you're not facing the bad teams that are mixed into your competition in the regular season as well as facing the same team game after game allowing them to learn your tendencies more and gameplan better.

I will say that I believe Kareem ran the floor more willingly early, and may have been a better defensive anchor early.

[therammingman]

He has a solid 5 inches on Dwight, and that's a good picture because we can see their entire bodies. Don't see anything weird about the angle either.

If Dwight is still the 6'9" he was measured at barefoot then Kareem is still looking at least 7'2" at 65 years old.

It's often been said that Kareem was more 7'3"-7'4". I don't know if he seems taller because other heights are exaggerated, but he could have been closer to 7'3".

It's also possible that Kareem is a guy who just hasn't shrunk yet. Bill Russell still looks over 6'9" at 78 years old



A true zone hasn't been a major part of the game, though I've seen it more the last few years. It's usually used more to take teams out of their rhythm. But it's not as much of a true zone that would affect a dominant big man as it is being able to double without the ball.

And I did see some teams go to a zone at times before '05. It's often been poor defensive teams that tried it. KG's Wolves use to go to it sometimes when Saunders was coaching them.

I stand by some being able to average 28+. Both Kareem and Shaq come to mind.

Yao was averaging 27/10 before his injury in the first 26 games of the '06-'07 season and in the second half of the '05-'06 season, Yao averaged 26/12 in 25 games.

The league has also gotten smaller on average since the 90's and early 00's which is something I believe makes it easier for great post players to dominate.



I agree that Sampson looks taller there, but looking taller in one picture doesn't necessarily tell us what the height difference was.

I remember a video of Chick Hearn interviewing Mark Eaton, and Eaton said that he was just under 7'4", like 7'3 3/4" or something and that Sampson was about 2 inches shorter than he was and no way was Sampson 7'4".

I'd guess Sampson is either 7'2" or 7'3". But if you remember, Hakeem was often said to be 6'10", and there didn't seem to be as big of a difference as you'd expect. Didn't seem to be more than a 4 inch difference, iirc. In fact, the difference between Sampson and Hakeem didn't really seem much bigger than the difference between Shaq and Hakeem.



Agreed. I used to make the mistake of putting too much into stats, but when you start talking about players of Kareem's caliber, stats really don't mean anything. Especially since the league was changing, there's the pre-merger, post-merger factor as well as expansion and as Kareem said, he was guarded 1 on 1 most of the time his first 4-5 seasons, then doubled constantly at the time of this quote('77), and from game footage this seems to be accurate.

Kareem himself first said he was at his best in '77 and later in '80. I tend to think '77 was his peak.

The reason why I'm convinced Kareem is better is because by the late 70's, even 1980, he didn't seem like he had lost, much if any athleticism. Certainly not anything that affected his ability to perform on the court. But without any real loss we saw some additions to his game. Early on it, it was pretty much just the sky hook, not that he needed much else, but adding a turnaround jumper which was pretty good, in addition to a left-handed hook and a baseline spin when they overplayed him going to the sky hook in the lane certainly made him better, imo. While I've seen some nice passes from Kareem as early as '70-'71 games, I believe he improved that as well. He's also mentioned becoming a smarter player by the late 70's, and he seemed to get stronger as well. Strength seemed to be the weakness you could exploit early on.

If you look at '74-'80, Kareem fared much better in the playoffs than '70-'73. Although he did dominate individually in the '70 playoffs, but part of this was probably due to Philly's lack of size and in the NY series, I did read that some of his numbers came late after the game had pretty much been decided, but his performance in the series was generally praised by the Knicks.

But that's where I've found that the additions to a player's game are the most noticeable, the playoffs, and it's because you're not facing the bad teams that are mixed into your competition in the regular season as well as facing the same team game after game allowing them to learn your tendencies more and gameplan better.

I will say that I believe Kareem ran the floor more willingly early, and may have been a better defensive anchor early.


:biggums:

[ShaqAttack3234]

:biggums:

What exactly does this response mean? It really makes no sense. I responded to several points made and by different posters? Your post on the other hand was a complete waste since you'll need to make another one to adequately explain it.

[therammingman]

What exactly does this response mean? It really makes no sense. I responded to several points made and by different posters? Your post on the other hand was a complete waste since you'll need to make another one to adequately explain it.

it means i can't believe you were so thorough

[ShaqAttack3234]

it means i can't believe you were so thorough

Ok, well thanks, I feel like an asshole now. :oldlol: But I appreciate the compliment.

[therammingman]

Ok, well thanks, I feel like an asshole now. :oldlol: But I appreciate the compliment.

n/p

[Gotterdammerung]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ShaqAttack3234 again.

:facepalm

ShaqAttack3234, your posts on the centers are always great. I think you should write a book on the great big men. The market is dry out there.

[CavaliersFTW]

For those conjecturing about Kareem's height:

He (like Bill Russell) was very sensitive about his height. He didn't want to be perceived as taller than he actually was, but like Wilt he also was a "freak" who constantly had measuring tapes on him. He was measured in height from every season of UCLA up to the first few seasons in the NBA. The tallest he was EVER measured was 7-1 and 7/8ths. The median heights recorded of him when fully grown is about 7-1 and 5/8ths (peoples heights fluctuate by fractions of an inch even throughout the day). At UCLA he was 7-1 and 3/8ths. His height is quite easy to find throughout newspapers, sports articles, and photographs from his first few seasons in the NBA. He has never been "7-3" etc, he actually vocally shoots down those assertians in Newspapers when questioned about them and get's all poindexter spitting out his precise height down to the faction of the inch as if he doesn't want to be percieved as taller than reality perhaps because he cares if people think he's good only due to his height.

The reason Ralph Sampson is throwing off everybodies judgement is the same reason players today throw off everybody's judgement (like 6-9 Dwight being listed 6-11 yet he's shorter in real life than Bill Russell). Ralph Sampson has never been 7-4 even in his ridiculously thick shoes that he used to wear. His list height is a lie, and barefoot he's probably closer to 7-1 and change or 7-2. There is an NBA center who called Sampson out on this (can't remember what his name is - Mark Eaton maybe?) but this guy was one of the superfreak height centers who actually was in the 7-4 range (w/o shoes) and he quite clearly noticed Sampson wasn't as tall as he was. Sampson has the stature of a person Kareem or Robert Parishes size not the stature of the uncoordinated players who are truly 7-4. Sampson is one of the first examples of a player so overhyped out of college that his list info was nothing more than a complete media/hype driven fabrication. Not saying he's the first to do this but he def helped pave the way for everyone to be okay with having overambitious erroneous list info - a trend that continues today.

[Round Mound]

[B]Kareem was 7`2 3/4 ft ...Closer to 7