#4 NBA Player Peak Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[fpliii]

Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 has been voted as the #3 NBA Player Peak of All-Time According to InsideHoops

http://turnernbaallball.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/wilt-chamberlain-500.jpg

Voting:

24 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad, Deuce Bigalow, kennethgriffin, KOBE143, ScalabrineStan, scandisk_, KG215, Hands of Iron, EnoughSaid, joeyjoejoe, imdaman99, Yung D-Will, Andi, BlackJoker23, Young X, IGotACoolStory, MisterAmazing, lilgodfather1, redhonda76, Dominator, Hittin_Shots, silenc, StateOfMind12, tmacattack33)
5 - LeBron James 09-12 (LosBulls, pauk, Nash, TheCorporation, Rnbizzle)
5 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom, bl2k8, lakerspng, crisoner, rhythmic †hesis)
3 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91, MiamiThrice, dyna)
2 - Magic Johnson 87-90 (Sarcastic, Deuce Bigalow)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh)
1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 77-80 (OldSchoolBBall)
1 - Elgin Baylor 59-60 (L.Kizzle)

(votes from #1,#2,#3 carried over; bolded votes are new to this thread)

[fpliii]

#3 Voting:

22 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna, MisterAmazing, fpliii, IGotACoolStory, magnax1, RoundMoundOfReb, kurple, Hittin_Shots, Stern, Vertical-24, PoochyMama, lilgodfather1, Shade8780, silenc, chains5000, Kiddlovesnets, Freedom Kid7, upside24)
15 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad, Deuce Bigalow, kennethgriffin, KOBE143, ScalabrineStan, scandisk_, KG215, Hands of Iron, EnoughSaid, joeyjoejoe, imdaman99, Yung D-Will, Andi, BlackJoker23, Young X)
3 - LeBron James 09-12 (LosBulls, pauk, Nash)
2 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom, bl2k8)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh)
1 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91)
1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 77-80 (OldSchoolBBall) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276397)

#2 Voting:

29 - Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 (lilgodfather1, fpliii, Yao Ming's Foot, lakerspng, imdaman99, upside24, Carbine, RoundMoundOfReb, MiamiThrice, lilblingy, daily, shaq2000, pauk, Hands of Iron, CarlosBoozer, TerranOP, Vertical-24, joeyjoejoe, MisterAmazing, Deuce Bigalow, KOBE143, Hands of Iron, KG215, ScalabrineStan, BlackVVaves, Holy Random, tmacattack33, LosBulls, scandisk_)
5 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna)
1 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad)
1 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276387)

#1 Voting:

22 - Michael Jordan 90-93 (Deuce Bigalow, Optimus Prime, KG215, Young X, DatAsh, swi7ch, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, TheMan, Poochymama, tmacattack33, KOBE143, Freedom Kid7, magnax1, Timmy D for MVP, scandisk_, Boston C's, alenleomessi, v1ncelis, Heilige, Owl, KOBE143, AK47DR91)
19 - Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 (lilgodfather1, fpliii, Yao Ming's Foot, lakerspng, imdaman99, upside24, Carbine, RoundMoundOfReb, MiamiThrice, lilblingy, daily, shaq2000, pauk, Hands of Iron, CarlosBoozer, TerranOP, Vertical-24, joeyjoejoe, MisterAmazing)
5 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna)
1 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad)
1 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276328)

[IGotACoolStory]

Hakeem better take this.

[MisterAmazing]

Hakeem

[fpliii]

Hakeem better take this.

he probably will, since votes carry over

voting ends tomorrow at 8PM

[Sarcastic]

Magic Johnson from 86-90 was better than Hakeem's 2 year run during Jordan's absence.

[KG215]

How is Kobe already getting votes? He's got a borderline top 10 peak at best. If I looked at it closer, he might be in the 12-15 range somewhere.

[KG215]

Could a 14-vote lead really be blown?

Probably not. I'm just hoping Bird, Kareem, or Russell pick-up votes, or we could see the power of the Kobe stans get him into the top 6-10.

[KG215]

I'm going Kareem, followed by Bird after this.

Yeah, that's my next two votes, too. Just not sure on the order, yet.

After that it starts to get hairy. I don't know enough about how good some of the players in the 50s-80s were at their peaks. I feel like LeBron's peak is top 7-10 worthy and think Magic should be in the top 10 somewhere, too. Russell never had just one overwhelming dominating statistical peak, but winning at the rate he won is dominating in a different sense.

[L.Kizzle]

Lol, Elgin Baylor kids.

35/17/5 over 3 seasons.

:biggums:

[lilgodfather1]

I'm leaning towards Hakeem here. How has Elgin Baylor not gotten votes, yet Kobe has :confusedshrug:. That's a travesty...

[lilgodfather1]

Yeah, Lebron/Magic likely squabble between #7 and #8.

01. Shaq
02. Jordan
03. Olajuwon
04. Chamberlain
05. Jabbar
06. Bird
07. Lebron/Magic

Is how I've voted/am voting so far.
Bird was never better than LeBron... Basketball is played on two ends of the court.

[AK47DR91]

Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91)

Going with Larry Legend gain!

[Hands of Iron]

Never understood the fascination of people going crazy over players they either never saw or can't really watch film of in full context. Honestly, that would drive me absolutely insane. Going off statistics and written word. Insane.

It's like boxing people stating Harry Greb was a greater fighter than Ray Robinson.

[L.Kizzle]

Never understood the fascination of people going crazy over players they either never saw or can't really watch film of in full context. Honestly, that would drive me absolutely insane. Going off statistics and written word. Insane.

It's like boxing people stating Harry Greb was a greater fighter than Ray Robinson.
That's how we go off of history. Written words and word of mouth from others.

From the Bible to your 9th grade American History book.

[L.Kizzle]

Yeah, but were just talking about basketball here.

So many great, dominant and skilled players to enjoy watching. I'm just saying I couldn't do it, personally. I find it to be a terribly unfulfilling experience.
My love of the game actually came, not from watching current ball on TV (though, it had a major part) but it came from reading stories about WIlt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Bob Pettit, Connie Hawkins, ect.

I'm still getting fascinated by recent stories of Chet Walker, ect.

[TheCorporation]

Lbj6

[L.Kizzle]

Yeah, I went through that faze as well. I'm not saying they weren't great players/pioneers, that the game would even exist without them, etc. Nothing like that. I'm saying they don't peak my interest and fascination in the way more modern players do. I couldn't be a fan of Baylor or Wilt or Oscar in the same I am with an Olajuwon or Shaq because there's an emptiness and missing element there. It isn't even their fault.
I look at it like music. I'm more of a fan of James Brown then Chris Brown? One peaked in the 60's and 70s and has been dead for over 5 years. One is alive and is (I'm assuming) his prime right now.

We have the current guy's every move. Every song, every performance, ect. The older guys, we're lucky to find vintage clips on him before the year 1965.

Yet, I'm not a fan of Chris Brown ...

[redhonda76]

Hakeem

[Colbertnation64]

Never understood the fascination of people going crazy over players they either never saw or can't really watch film of in full context. Honestly, that would drive me absolutely insane. Going off statistics and written word. Insane.

It's like boxing people stating Harry Greb was a greater fighter than Ray Robinson.

There's much more footage out there than you think.

In order to REALLY have appreciated MJ you'd have to be about 25-30. Watching the '96 Bulls at the age of 9 really doesn't count like some people think, it's hero worship, you don't really know or appreciate what's going on. Pretty soon most people on this forum wouldn't have really seen him play. Doesn't mean he should be dropped out of the top 10 of all time list.

What would drive me insane is only being able to appreciate the period of basketball I've been alive for.

[DOMINATOR]

Hakeem

[Deuce Bigalow]

This is ruined that Wilt was even being mentioned, now he's been voted in?
Might as well go Mikan. 5 Titles in 6 years, Wilt was nowhere near that.

[ScalabrineStan]

Does anyone else think Hakeem is a top 5 player ever? He kind of reminds me of LeBron in being an uber talented, two sides of the ball, all-time-versatile freak of nature who spent a couple of prime years without any notable talent around him burning up chances for Rings and FMVPs.

In many people's opinions it is accolades that determine how great a player stands but in my view, it has a lot more to do with what they can do on the court, which is more complex than simple lists.

[Deuce Bigalow]

But how do you really feel? :lol
I want to break into to Lauber's house in Galt, California and smash his computer with a baseball bat :mad:

[Hittin_Shots]

Dream

[KG215]

Yes, but a lot of people can't deal with the idea of that.

His peak was just incredible. Who knows what he does in the early 90s with a competent coach and FO.

Some people like the overall resume, 3+ rings, etc to be considered top 5 of all-time. The guys that are normally ranked ahead of him (on ISH anyway) like Kobe and Duncan, while very good at their peak, I would pick a peak Hakeem over both them - hands down - to build a team around. If I had a more concrete set of criteria for my top 10 I'd probably lean towards putting more weight on peak dominance than longevity/overall resume. Why? Because when I'm trying to decide between two players, a question I find myself asking is would I take Player A over Player B to build a team around with nothing but winning championships in mind.

That's not the only and deciding factor because it's hard to ignore the impressive longevity and sustained excellence of someone like Kobe; but I can see why someone would rank Hakeem as high top five when I myself sometimes go back-and-forth between he and Shaq at #7. And when you factor in just how dominant a defensive player Hakeem was, I can see why someone would want him over Bird and/or Magic.

[DatAsh]

Why? Because when I'm trying to decide between two players, a question I find myself asking is would I take Player A over Player B to build a team around with nothing but winning championships in mind.



Good question to ask. It's similar to the one I ask myself when ranking players.

I ask myself "If we rerun their careers from pre-draft to retirement 1000 times, which player has a better chance of winning more championships over the course of their career?", and it's not always the player that has more championships. Robert Horry won more championships than Shaquille O'Neal, but Robert Horry doesn't come out on top of the question I posed.

[ScalabrineStan]

He sorta reminds me of a 6'11 Jordan. Both obscenely athletic, palmed the ball a lot, had insane touch at the rim, top5 defenders ever, probably the GOAT defenders at their positions respectively, came in the same year, were insanely clutch relative to their positions, could play the high post and fade away, and could throw down in damn near anyone's face. Its a shame the two didn't clash in 96.

[DatAsh]

He sorta reminds me of a 6'11 Jordan. Both obscenely athletic, palmed the ball a lot, had insane touch at the rim, top5 defenders ever, probably the GOAT defenders at their positions respectively, came in the same year, were insanely clutch relative to their positions, could play the high post and fade away, and could throw down in damn near anyone's face. Its a shame the two didn't clash in 96.

If you have Olajuwon as the best defensive center ever, yet only a top five defender overall, I'm very curious to see what your top five looks like.

[BIZARRO]

Haven't posted in a while, but the sheer ridiculousness of putting Hakeem over Bird '84-'86 and Magic '87-'89 is mind boggling. Really? I love Hakeem, but his overrating on ISH finally reached it's lowest point.
Saw Bird and Magic at that time. Truly iconic. :bowdown:

No, just no, people. :confusedshrug:

[DatAsh]

I think he was the best defensive center since the Merger. I won't go so far as to encroach on Russell and Chamberlain's keepsake titles and claims of being 1/2. I hate taking the numbers at face value too in terms of scoring and rebounding although I find it amusing Olajuwon was a superior scorer in the playoffs (to Chamberlain not Russell) but then again Olajuwon always elevated his game come playoff time. I see people say he was a 21 ppg career scorer. Not when it mattered.

I actually have Olajuwon above Chamberlain defensively. Wilt's defensive peak was greater, but Olajuwon was a defensive force out of college and had to build up his offense. Chamberlain was the opposite; he was an offensive wrecking ball from the get go and didn't really become a defensive superstar until 64.

[L.Kizzle]

I actually have Olajuwon above Chamberlain defensively. Wilt's defensive peak was greater, but Olajuwon was a defensive force out of college and had to build up his offense. Chamberlain was the opposite; he was an offensive wrecking ball from the get go and didn't really become a defensive superstar until 64.
Don't know about that. In his first meeting with HOFer Walt Bellamy (1961) he blocked his first 9 shots just because.

[DatAsh]

Don't know about that. In his first meeting with HOFer Walt Bellamy (1961) he blocked his first 9 shots just because.

Blocking a lot of shots does not equal playing good defense.

He wasn't a bad defender when he entered the league by any stretch of the word, but he didn't become all time great until about five years later.

[L.Kizzle]

Blocking a lot of shots does not equal playing good defense.

He wasn't a bad defender when he entered the league by any stretch of the word, but he didn't become all time great until about five years later.
When its man to man defense, it means its good defense.

[silenc]

Hakeem Olajuwon

[DatAsh]

When its man to man defense, it means its good defense.

Man to man defense is one of the least important aspects of being a defensive anchor though. Wilt was always a prolific shot blocker; he became a prolific defensive anchor.

[L.Kizzle]

Man to man defense is one of the important aspects of being a defensive anchor though. Wilt was always a prolific shot blocker; he became a prolific defensive anchor.
I know, I'm just saying it was man to man coverage when he got those 9 blocks on Walt. Considering Walt was the center avg 32/19 coming into the game.

[DatAsh]

I know, I'm just saying it was man to man coverage when he got those 9 blocks on Walt. Considering Walt was the center avg 32/19 coming into the game.

I'm not sure what you're arguing.

[G.O.A.T]

It's very hard for me to see Hakeem this high and make sense of it, especially when most of the voters are so young.

When it was happening I wasn't even thinking of it as one of the greatest oeaks I'd ever seen. Honestly it was more of, "oh he was the one who was second best (by a huge margin) to Jordan". I accept that I like many underrated him at the time, but I just don't see Hakeem, even at his best, having a superior impact to a peak Russell, Bird, Magic or Kareem, all much greater players when you consider all the elements that going into an all-time great.

U think people are infatuated with the wide array of skills Hakeem had and the lack of limitations he had. That is what made him a superstar, but the game being so new to him (even in 1994 he'd only been playing for about 12 years) and his naturally personality being one that is more private and reserved really prevented him from being the type of force those other guys (Kareem aside) were in big games, close games and most importantly the biggest moment. As good as Hakeem was, I'd take those other seven guys over him without hesitation.

[lakerspng]

Kobe.

[Dave3]

These votes are unfortunately always about who has the most fans. At one point it becomes Kobe vs. LeBron and their fans, and after that one is decided the votes decrease significantly. I mean, I never watched Kareem, but LeBron and Kobe have 7 votes combined while Kareem has only 1?

OP, I think it may be better to just not count votes for those guys up till a certain point, because if either of them gets voted in over Kareem, that completely ruins the thread, and it's actually a good idea for a thread.

[lakerspng]

These votes are unfortunately always about who has the most fans. At one point it becomes Kobe vs. LeBron and their fans, and after that one is decided the votes decrease significantly. I mean, I never watched Kareem, but LeBron and Kobe have 7 votes combined while Kareem has only 1?

OP, I think it may be better to just not count votes for those guys up till a certain point, because if either of them gets voted in over Kareem, that completely ruins the thread, and it's actually a good idea for a thread.

I watched Kareem.

I still think Kobe 06-09 was as unstoppable a scorer as the league's ever seen. The only two players who ever matched what he was doing, were Jordan and Wilt and they've both been voted above him already. He was also a great defender, great playmaker and led his team to the promised land.

[Dave3]

I watched Kareem.

I still think Kobe 06-09 was as unstoppable a scorer as the league's ever seen. The only two players who ever matched what he was doing, were Jordan and Wilt and they've both been voted above him already. He was also a great defender, great playmaker and led his team to the promised land.
That right away makes me not believe you. LeBron 2008-2010 was at least arguably as good as Kobe from 2005-2007, yet you put Kobe on a pedestal with Jordan/Wilt, making him bypass players like Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Russell, LeBron, Duncan, and Shaq. I've seen 3 of those players in their prime (LeBron, Shaq, and Duncan) and all of them are either arguably as good as prime Kobe, or clearly better, but you seem to completely neglect that, which tells me you're likely to either have not watched the majority of the players I've named, or you're just incredibly incredibly biased towards Kobe to the point of being blind to everyone else's talent. Either way it doesn't make me respect the opinion at all.

I'm a huge LeBron fan but I'm not blind to the point of thinking he was as good as Shaq for example. Don't let bias determine who you vote for, because it's clear that's how it's going.

[crisoner]

How is Kobe already getting votes? He's got a borderline top 10 peak at best. If I looked at it closer, he might be in the 12-15 range somewhere.

LMAO

Peak player??????

And trying to say Kobe at his peak is not top 10???

Oh God ISH peeps you guys are freaking reaching.

[magictricked]

These votes are unfortunately always about who has the most fans. At one point it becomes Kobe vs. LeBron and their fans, and after that one is decided the votes decrease significantly. I mean, I never watched Kareem, but LeBron and Kobe have 7 votes combined while Kareem has only 1?

OP, I think it may be better to just not count votes for those guys up till a certain point, because if either of them gets voted in over Kareem, that completely ruins the thread, and it's actually a good idea for a thread.:lol
Dave3 screaming "Raise the draw bridge the Fanboys are coming".

[lakerspng]

That right away makes me not believe you. LeBron 2008-2010 was at least arguably as good as Kobe from 2005-2007, yet you put Kobe on a pedestal with Jordan/Wilt, making him bypass players like Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Russell, LeBron, Duncan, and Shaq. I've seen 3 of those players in their prime (LeBron, Shaq, and Duncan) and all of them are either arguably as good as prime Kobe, or clearly better, but you seem to completely neglect that, which tells me you're likely to either have not watched the majority of the players I've named, or you're just incredibly incredibly biased towards Kobe to the point of being blind to everyone else's talent. Either way it doesn't make me respect the opinion at all.

I'm a huge LeBron fan but I'm not blind to the point of thinking he was as good as Shaq for example. Don't let bias determine who you vote for, because it's clear that's how it's going.

I voted Shaq as #1 all time peak. I don't think anyone was as dominant as he was from 00-02.

I grew up watching showtime here in LA. I watched Kareem for well over a decade wear the purple and gold and loved and respected him every second of it.

I simply feel that for that stretch, Kobe was on par with any player in history. He could beat teams by himself. It's not a knock on anyone else. No other players other than Jordan and Wilt did what he did for that stretch scoring wise. That is not even questionable. You may think I place too much stock on scoring, which may be the case, but that's what I believe.

[tmacattack33]

Hakeem the Dream is my vote.

Edit: nevermind (see post #82 for explanation), please disregard my vote here

[Dave3]

:lol
Dave3 screaming "Raise the draw bridge the Fanboys are coming".
Well, I mean when you have a crazy number of fans that don't actually care about voting accurately but more just for their guy regardless, doesn't that ruin every single vote? Kobe and LeBron having more votes than Kareem (and I'm a huge LeBron fan) is ridiculous.

[crisoner]

Let's remind everyone what LeBron said in 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

[oolalaa]

It's very hard for me to see Hakeem this high and make sense of it, especially when most of the voters are so young.

When it was happening I wasn't even thinking of it as one of the greatest oeaks I'd ever seen. Honestly it was more of, "oh he was the one who was second best (by a huge margin) to Jordan". I accept that I like many underrated him at the time, but I just don't see Hakeem, even at his best, having a superior impact to a peak Russell, Bird, Magic or Kareem, all much greater players when you consider all the elements that going into an all-time great.

U think people are infatuated with the wide array of skills Hakeem had and the lack of limitations he had. That is what made him a superstar, but the game being so new to him (even in 1994 he'd only been playing for about 12 years) and his naturally personality being one that is more private and reserved really prevented him from being the type of force those other guys (Kareem aside) were in big games, close games and most importantly the biggest moment. As good as Hakeem was, I'd take those other seven guys over him without hesitation.

I'm inclined to agree. Bird's peak ('86 & '87) in particular seems to get vastly underrated. As far as I'm concerned, he was a friggin genius, playing close to perfect offensive basketball in both the '86 and '87 playoffs (Until he wore down in the '87 Finals). His shooting, his unreal playmaking, his movement off the ball, his post game that commanded a double team at all times, his ability to notch it up on command down the stretch. Everything was fundamental, efficient and unstoppable.

Just a couple games from those post seasons....

1985/86
- Game 5 of ECSF against Hawks, 36/10/5. Bird was at the hub of the greatest quarter any team has ever put together. They outscored Atlanta by 36-6 in the 3rd, including going on a 24-0 run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_eN0xPjzfY)
- Game 3 of ECF against Bucks, 19/16/13 triple double. Some of the prettiest passing you'll ever see (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3eIW_ujmhE)
- Game 4 of ECF against Bucks, 30/8/5 including 4 3s in a row down the stretch to complete the sweep.
- Game 6 of finals against Houston, 29/11/12. All round domination. This was one of his best defensive games as well.

1986/87
- Game 1 of ECSF against Bucks, 40/11/7 without McHale, embarrassed Jack Sikma with a ridiculous between the legs pass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnr-eFaXozw)
- Game 4 of ECSF against Bucks, 42/7/8 in a double overtime win.
- Games 5-7 of ECF against Pistons, 35/10/7. Game 5 = famous steal on Isiah. Game 6 = no Parish. Game 7 = supreme down the stretch.



Btw, when do you consider to be Russell's peak? I know he himself has claimed that '64 was his best season, but considering that he basically got abused on both ends of the floor by Wilt in that post season, and had a really poor shooting playoffs in general, I find it hard to agree with him. '62 might be the best bet, but I have a fondness for '65.

[MiamiThrice]

Larry Bird (84-86)

http://imgross.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/1981_11_09.jpg

[G.O.A.T]

Btw, when do you consider to be Russell's peak? I know he himself has claimed that '64 was his best season, but considering that he basically got abused on both ends of the floor by Wilt in that post season, and had a really poor shooting playoffs in general, I find it hard to agree with him. '62 might be the best bet, but I have a fondness for '65.


'62-'65 he was the best player in the NBA while Wilt, Oscar, Baylor and West were also in their primes. That's his peak to me. '

As for '64, I don' see how Wilt abused him. Russell and the Celtics won ever game with relative ease except game five. That SF team needed Wilt to do everything, his numbers had to be huge for them to compete with Boston. Russell rested more in that series than any Finals series of his career. Even the '58 sweep of the Minneapolis Lakers required less mpg from Felton.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Torn between Bird and KAJ. Will vote later.

[StateOfMind12]

Hakeem Olajwuon.


I think once Hakeem and Kareem become enshrined, we will have a complete war of Kobe vs. Lebron.

I think I'll stop after that spot because I'm pretty sure Kobe will win just because he has far more fans on this site, not because he was actually better because he wasn't.

I'm also pretty sure Russell will be jilted in this as well because people think that Russell is only a high ranked GOAT because of his accomplishments, not because of his dominant prime/peak which is false.

[G.O.A.T]

As far as Russell's peak goes, just consider this.

1962 is sometimes thought of as his best year, but 1964 and 1965 get just as much mention if not more. In 1962 Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 ppg and 26 rpg, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double and Elgin Baylor put up 38-19 without practicing and yet the players who played against all of them voted Russell most valuable, by a definitive margin.

So in what wasn't even his unanimous peak season he was more valuable than the player who posted the greatest statistical season ever by a center, forward and guard...Wilt, Elgin and Oscar respectively.

[MiamiThrice]

Lol @ all the disrespect towards Bird on this website. The thing holding him back was that his career was shortened, but when taking peak play into consideration that shouldn't matter at all. During the mid 80s he was pretty much considered the GOAT by most fans like Jordan is now. Guy gets ranked like 7th by most people and from the looks of this he'll have the same ranking even though his longevity is what holds him back.

The only clearcut player above Bird in his peak is 00-02 Shaq.

[DatAsh]

Lebron and Kobe shouldn't have more votes at this point than Bill Russell, especially not Kobe. But, I suppose that's just the nature of the internet.

It just saddens me that I'm the only one who's voted for Russell at this point.

[fpliii]

Lebron and Kobe shouldn't have more votes at this point than Bill Russell, especially not Kobe. But, I suppose that's just the nature of the internet.

It just saddens me that I'm the only one who's voted for Russell at this point.

I have him at #4 (after Shaq, Wilt and Hakeem), right ahead of Jordan, and #1 on my GOAT list

I think he'll get some play after the voting in this thread is done though

[Hands of Iron]

I have him at #4 (after Shaq, Wilt and Hakeem), right ahead of Jordan, and #1 on my GOAT list

I think he'll get some play after the voting in this thread is done though

Jordan 5th, interesting.

[G.O.A.T]

I have him at #4 (after Shaq, Wilt and Hakeem), right ahead of Jordan, and #1 on my GOAT list

I think he'll get some play after the voting in this thread is done though


A peak Hakeem (assuming c '93-'95) is greater than a peak MJ (assuming c '89''93)?

Personally I'd take any version of #23 MJ from 1990-1998 over any version of Hakeem on any day. Even when he was physically depleted, MJ still had a greater impact on his team than Hakeem ever did.

Not sure the numbers always back that up, suspect they don't, but I know how it felt watching both guys during their respective title runs. Jordan was always in control, and as someone always rooting against him, that was pretty frustrating.

[fpliii]

Jordan 5th, interesting.


A peak Hakeem (assuming c '93-'95) is greater than a peak MJ (assuming c '89''93)?

Personally I'd take any version of #23 MJ from 1990-1998 over any version of Hakeem on any day. Even when he was physically depleted, MJ still had a greater impact on his team than Hakeem ever did.

Not sure the numbers always back that up, suspect they don't, but I know how it felt watching both guys during their respective title runs. Jordan was always in control, and as someone always rooting against him, that was pretty frustrating.

perhaps I'm overrating rebounding ability (I consider it to be a separate phase of the game from offense/defense), but Hakeem also was the defensive anchor for his teams (it's possible I'm overrating this as well) while Jordan largely was not (though he was an excellent man defender and help defender)

I'm judging these guys in terms of degree impact rather than greatness...a center can just by nature more easily leave his mark on a game (at least historically, today this probably isn't true); Jordan is one of three co-GOATs on my current list (while Hakeem is not; admittedly my list needs revision so I'm not going to post it here atm)

[Rnbizzle]

Lebron James.

[Deuce Bigalow]

fpliii, I didn't literally mean Mikan, I was just speaking figuratively.
I'll go with 87-90 Magic.

[fpliii]

fpliii, I didn't literally mean Mikan, I was just speaking figuratively.
I'll go with 87-90 Magic.

fixed

[dyna]

Bird

[oolalaa]

As far as Russell's peak goes, just consider this.

1962 is sometimes thought of as his best year, but 1964 and 1965 get just as much mention if not more. In 1962 Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 ppg and 26 rpg, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double and Elgin Baylor put up 38-19 without practicing and yet the players who played against all of them voted Russell most valuable, by a definitive margin.

So in what wasn't even his unanimous peak season he was more valuable than the player who posted the greatest statistical season ever by a center, forward and guard...Wilt, Elgin and Oscar respectively.

Is it fair to say that Russell was a regular season coaster, ala Tim Duncan? Someone who consciously saved his best for the post season? The numbers certainly suggest that, and from my understanding of his mental make-up, I think it's a fair assumption.

MVPs are subjective regular season awards, and, crucially, they were voted by the players back then. Baylor wasn't going to win because he only played half the season. Oscar wasn't going to win because the Royals only won 43 games. And Wilt? He was making a mockery of the league. He was embarassing teams and players on an almost daily basis. His peers were consistently, incessantly and openly critical of his play throughout the season.

They loathed the way he played....but that doesn't take away from his insane dominance. He outscored Russell by 31ppg and outrebounded him, too. For all the talk of his selfishness, and the fact that his teammates were merely pawns who subjected themselves to the will of one man, the Warriors finished with 49 wins, the 3rd best record in the league. The Warriors were a very average team, were they not? I would say the Celtics, Lakers, Hawks, Royals and Nationals were all more talented than Philly.

In my opinion, Wilt got flat out ROBBED of the MVP (I don't think this was the only season he was robbed, incidentally. I think he should have won in '64, and probably '61 as well, although his 'retirement' in the off-season didn't exactly propagate a 'winning' atmosphere to begin the season). Russell was certainly the player and the man you wanted on your team to go to war with in the post season (Wilt did take a significantly more talented Boston team all the way to a 7th game though. That shouldn't be glossed over), but regular seasons are entirely different. There's a different mind-set and intensity. Wilt played full throttle for just about every minute of every quarter of every game the entire season (Offensively at least). Even though he was doing this for the wrong reasons (i.e for scoring records rather than wins), it should be commended and respected.

[tmacattack33]

I want you to disregard my vote for Hakeem (it post number 61 in this thread).

I only vote for players from my time and up (1994 or so). And I only choose to vote for them at a spot that seems like they deserve.

I now believe that others before 1994 have a good argument for this spot (Magic and Bird), and so i think i'd just rather not vote for anyone at this spot.

[oolalaa]

'62-'65 he was the best player in the NBA while Wilt, Oscar, Baylor and West were also in their primes. That's his peak to me. '

As for '64, I don' see how Wilt abused him. That SF team needed Wilt to do everything, his numbers had to be huge for them to compete with Boston. Russell rested more in that series than any Finals series of his career. Even the '58 sweep of the Minneapolis Lakers required less mpg from Felton.

Perhaps 'abused' was too strong a word, but I find it hard to come to a other conclusion than Wilt comprehensively outplaying Russell across the series (With the exception of game 1). There comes a point where you cannot simply brush aside the statistical discrepancy, especially their scoring. The '64 season was arguably Wilt at his absolute peak - finally commited on the defensive end, shooting the ball less, moving the ball more, Hannum gave him a renewd focus and determination after coasting through 62/63. The Celtics were, again, significantly more talented than the Warriors. That's surely the main reason for the series score. In fact, I am not totally against Wilt winning FMVP, although I do need to look into it more deeply.


Russell and the Celtics won ever game with relative ease except game five.

Don't forget about game 4.

[crisoner]

Kobe Bryant...

All those 40 plus games...60 plus in three quarters....81 points.
One of the greatest scorers in the history of the game.

[oolalaa]

What's the argument besides superior teammates and better passing ability? :applause:

It's already enough they get cast way ahead on 'legacy lists'.

Bird and Magic had almost unmatched 'intangibles' (Leadership, competitiveness, clutchness etc) Hakeem? Not so much, although his defense made up for most, if not all, of that.

[DatAsh]

Kobe Bryant...

All those 40 plus games...60 plus in three quarters....81 points.
One of the greatest scorers in the history of the game.


Over Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Lebron?

Everyone has their biases, and it all comes down to opinion, but do you truly feel that Kobe from 06-08 had a bigger effect on his team winning games than the guys I listed above?

[rhythmic]

Over Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Lebron?

Everyone has their biases, and it all comes down to opinion, but do you truly feel that Kobe from 06-08 had a bigger effect on his team winning games than the guys I listed above?

Uhm, yes he had similar impact but he played a different role. He had to carry those Laker teams offensively.

Mihm, Brown, S.Parker do any of these players even exist anymore? :rolleyes:
Yeah lets compare Kobe to players who during their peak played on great teams and had the fortune to win while playing at their absolute best.

Funny, as soon Kobe got another star (Gasol), he led his team to 3 straight final appearances while not even being at his absolute best, besides maybe 08'.

So please don't start questioning Kobe's ability to win games. :rolleyes:

[DatAsh]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[DatAsh]

I do think it's somewhat unfortunate that the majority of Kobe's peak was spent on a lackluster team; I'm not sure we can really complain though, seeing as he has been quite lucky in a comprehensive sense with respect to his supporting casts.