#30 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dwyane Wade was voted the #29 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops.

25.2 PPG | 5.1 RPG | 6.2 APG

2

[Rnbizzle]

Nash.

[pauk]

Willis Reed... for gods sake...

1

[ganja0710]

willis reed

[fpliii]

torn between Ewing, Frazier and Rodman

[Clutch]

Ewing

[Deuce Bigalow]

Top 30 in 2007 by ISH:

ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing

bolded are the players not voted in yet

here were the next 5:

31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd

[IGotACoolStory]

Got to have Stockton by now. After this I'm going McHale just for the hell of it.

[kurple]

Iverson

[ThatCoolKid]

Sabonis

[G.O.A.T]

torn between Ewing, Frazier and Rodman

Three players I've had more than 10 spots apart each on my list. And three players whose style of impact could not be more different. Interesting I must say.

[BlueandGold]

Stockton?

lol @ Wade over Ewing AND Stockton :facepalm

[dyna]

Willis Reed

[fpliii]

Three players I have more than 10 spots apart each on my list. And three players whose style of impact could not be more different. Interesting I must say.

my gut feeling is Ewing, due to his impact on those all-time great Knicks defenses

Frazier typically wouldn't check in for quite some time, but I've been watching a lot of video and reading articles as of late, so it might be a recency bias

Rodman is extremely difficult to place as a role-player, but he's what one might consider the GOAT in that regard (a super specialist in rebounding, man perimeter defense, man post defense)

[tmacattack33]

Patrick Chewing is my vote.

[dyna]

Ewing, Stockton over Willis Reed??

:confusedshrug:

[INDI]

stockton

[RRR3]

torn between Ewing, Frazier and Rodman
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2976/rudywhatever.png

[INDI]

Ewing, Stockton over Willis Reed??

:confusedshrug:

stockton was one of the most durable players in the history of the game. He leads the league in 2 of the top 5 most important stats ALL-TIME!!!!!! Cmon you got to admit that out of THOUSANDS of players, you are the leader in not 1 but 2 of the 5 major categories.

[fpliii]

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2976/rudywhatever.png

lol

his impact is undeniable, best third guy in league history

he literally did nearly everything on the court except score and anchor a defense, though those are the most important things a player can do

it comes down to when somebody wants to start including role players (and Rodman was a super role player, so to speak)

[Raz]

[QUOTE=pauk]Willis Reed... for gods sake...

1

[Legends66NBA7]

lol @ Wade over Ewing AND Stockton

Wade vs Ewing is a good debate, but Wade was just better than Stockton. Nothing to laugh at.

[Round Mound]

Stockton

[colts19]

Big E

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol

his impact is undeniable, best third guy in league history

he literally did nearly everything on the court except score and anchor a defense, though those are the most important things a player can do

it comes down to when somebody wants to start including role players (and Rodman was a super role player, so to speak)
Yeah, but to put him over 1ST Options like George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, even guys like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Iverson, dozens more, ect?
You stand alone on this I guess.

[Legends66NBA7]

There are some players I don't see Stockton over, players that came before him and after... but I don't know how people are ranking Stockton over Ewing.

Ewing was clearly better than him in the majority of their primes. Ewing was getting MVP talks, the best player on his team, the offensive and defensive anchor, etc...

Not a vote, but just an observation.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, but to put him over 1ST Options like George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, even guys like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Iverson, dozens more, ect?
You stand alone on this I guess.

I wouldn't put Rodman this high either, but if I was building a team and have solid number 1 and 2 options, I would take him over some of the players mentioned.

[kennethgriffin]

if willis Reed had a longer career he would be argued as a top 12-13 all time player

he beat wilt/baylor/west in the nba finals in 70

then he beat wilt/goodrich/west in the nba finals in 73

( both times as his teams best player and finals mvp )

and he won a regular season mvp


atleast put him top 30 for god sakes

[crisoner]

John Stockton

All time Assist leader people

15,806

[Optimus Prime]

Wade above the likes of Stockton, Ewing, etc...

:facepalm

:kobe:

[crisoner]

Wade above the likes of Stockton, Ewing, etc...

:facepalm

:kobe:


I see your point but I think you can place Wade here for his 2006 Finals performance. I would have him around 31 or 32 though.

But I would pick a prime Ewing over him any day.

[Round Mound]

John Stockton

All time Assist leader people

15,806

And All Time Steal Leader Too.

Lets Remember that Stockton in his Prime Was Putting Pup like 16-17 PPG on like 54% FG, 13-14 APG and 3.0 SPG...

Best Pure PG Ever :bowdown:

[crisoner]

And All Time Steal Leader Too.

Lets Remember that Stockton in his Prime Was Putting Pup like 16-17 PPG on like 54% FG, 13-14 APG and 3.0 SPG...

Best Pure PG Ever :bowdown:

Agreed and Stockton was a nasty dirty player. I like that. Played hard all the time.

[kennethgriffin]

do people realise willis reed had to go through Unseld, kareem and wilt on the way to one title...

then had to go through Hayes, Unseld, Cowens and wilt on the way to his second title

both times as finals mvp

[Legends66NBA7]

Wade above the likes of Stockton

Why not ? :confusedshrug:

Wade's a better player than Stockton and is probably going end up more accomplished.

[tmacman]

It's Willis reed. An MVP, 2 rings and 2 finals MVPs in a span of 10 seasons is Top 30 worthy.

[MasterDurant24]

Clyde Frazier. Great defender, should have been the 73 Finals MVP and was the best player on the 72 team that went to the Finals also. From what I've seen and what I've read and heard from older people, also one of the best mid-range shooters ever. Great rebounder for a guard. Don't see why Stockton should be ranked ahead of him.

[Optimus Prime]

I see your point but I think you can place Wade here for his 2006 Finals performance. I would have him around 31 or 32 though.

But I would pick a prime Ewing over him any day.

So where is Joey Crawford ranked then? 29.5?

:kobe:

[fsvr54]

Clyde Frazier. Great defender, should have been the 73 Finals MVP and was the best player on the 72 team that went to the Finals also. From what I've seen and what I've read and heard from older people, also one of the best mid-range shooters ever. Great rebounder for a guard. Don't see why Stockton should be ranked ahead of him.

it's Walt, nikka

[tmacman]

it's Walt, nikka
:facepalm

[oolalaa]

lol

his impact is undeniable, best third guy in league history

he literally did nearly everything on the court except score and anchor a defense, though those are the most important things a player can do

it comes down to when somebody wants to start including role players (and Rodman was a super role player, so to speak)

Or pass, or make free throws. He didn't play like the best 3rd guy in league history for those last 2 Bulls championships, either. A perennial distraction whose drinking/partying affected his on court performance.

Was he the 3rd best player on those bad-boy Pistons? Or was it Laimbeer? Hmmmm, I've never really thought about it. I'll look into it....

[Kblaze8855]

No idea where people are getting the idea that wade this high is a problem. At least 14 people on this list...sharing a league with Wade? might not be better. 4-5 people already on it have been widely considered worse than Wade at some point in or near their primes sharing a league with him. Hes a 2 time champ. Leagues leading scorer. No less than 10 of the guys ranked over him never accomplished what he did as a team leader and the great number of them had more talent than he did in 06 to do it.

I love John Stockton. You put he and wade in the same league in their primes nobody asks who is better. Its Wade. Hes been as good as some people on this list in their primes since his second season.

[Kblaze8855]

And Dennis Rodman could pass his ass off.......

[JellyBean]

Willis Reed

[Trentknicks]

Ewing

[DatAsh]

I love John Stockton. You put he and wade in the same league in their primes nobody asks who is better. Its Wade. Hes been as good as some people on this list in their primes since his second season.


You could say the same thing about Patrick Ewing and John Stockton.

Prime for prime, do you think Wade was a better player than Patrick Ewing? I'm undecided.

[oolalaa]

And Dennis Rodman could pass his ass off.......

Rodman didn't touch the ball enough on the offensive end for his passing to impact games in any meaninful way. I should have been a little clearer.

[Eric Cartman]

Torn between Ewing and Stockton in this spot ... funny thing is i don't think Cousy is THAT much better than Stockton, but the list shows it that way ... anyways ... Stockton is my pick.

[MisterAmazing]

Willis Reed just beats out Ewing for my vote

[Legends66NBA7]

You could say the same thing about Patrick Ewing and John Stockton.

Prime for prime, do you think Wade was a better player than Patrick Ewing? I'm undecided.

I mentioned that earlier too:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7784247&postcount=22

[DatAsh]

I mentioned that earlier too:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7784247&postcount=22


Agreed.

Wade was arguably the best player in the league in 2009, and a top two player for several other seasons. As good as John Stockton was, he was never on that level. I'd even say that a peak Wade is more comparable to a peak Malone than he is to peak Stockton, at least impact wise.

[PK3434]

No idea where people are getting the idea that wade this high is a problem. At least 14 people on this list...sharing a league with Wade? might not be better. 4-5 people already on it have been widely considered worse than Wade at some point in or near their primes sharing a league with him. Hes a 2 time champ. Leagues leading scorer. No less than 10 of the guys ranked over him never accomplished what he did as a team leader and the great number of them had more talent than he did in 06 to do it.

I love John Stockton. You put he and wade in the same league in their primes nobody asks who is better. Its Wade. Hes been as good as some people on this list in their primes since his second season.

I agree with everything said here but my VOTE is STOCKTON.

Wade should be right behind him..in a few years, Wade will probably pass stockton and several others on this list but stockton has the 2 records that will be very very hard to break and he deserves a lot of credit for how he played later in his career. Will Wade's body even hold up to play at a stockton-like level in his mid to late 30s?

[Eric Cartman]

I agree with everything said here but my VOTE is STOCKTON.

Wade should be right behind him..in a few years, Wade will probably pass stockton and several others on this list but stockton has the 2 records that will be very very hard to break and he deserves a lot of credit for how he played later in his career. Will Wade's body even hold up to play at a stockton-like level in his mid to late 30s?

Obviously not. Still Wade > Stockton.

[Legends66NBA7]

Agreed.

Wade was arguably the best player in the league in 2009, and a top two player for several other seasons. As good as John Stockton was, he was never on that level. I'd even say that a peak Wade is more comparable to a peak Malone than he is to peak Stockton, at least impact wise.

That's actually debatable too. Malone had different styles to his game in parts of his prime, one that depended more on Stockton and the other where he was much more skilled.

I might be big man bias though and while I do think Malone is very overrated, you can actually have toss up here for peaks.

I try to compare Wade to guards first and Wade is a Top 6 guard all-time for me.


Will Wade's body even hold up to play at a stockton-like level in his mid to late 30s?

He won't have too, to be over Stockton.

[Trentknicks]

Willis Reed just beats out Ewing for my vote
Can't agree with you there, sure he went through a young KAJ and a nearly retired Wilt but was unfairly cut short on playing time later in his career due to injury. Ewing didn't win a title, but had to frequently come up against some of the greatest players of all time in their prime. If not for MJ the Knicks would have won in 92 and 97, and made the finals in 93. Ewing was also the centrepiece of a dominant Knicks team from 90-99.

[Kblaze8855]

That Wade getting worse and worse will make him one day better than Stockton is the whole reason I hate these discussions at times.

We just arent talking about basketball anymore.........

[MasterDurant24]

Anybody who's seen bo th Wade and Stockton play knows that Wade is better. Wade was damn near unstoppable at his best.

[ScalabrineStan]

Ewing

[Duncan21formvp]

Clyde Drexler

[miles berg]

Ewing

[fsvr54]

I'm torn between frazier, Stockton, and Ewing.

[L.Kizzle]

The original Clyde, well almost. Clyde Lovelette was the original but whatever.

CLYDE FRAZIER.

[fpliii]

Yeah, but to put him over 1ST Options like George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, even guys like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Iverson, dozens more, ect?
You stand alone on this I guess.

I guess so; I mean in an all-time draft for my first pick (and possibly second pick) I'd take those guys over Worm, but if I already have a dominant guy? It's not THAT crazy (or maybe I'm just nuts...). I mean at some point you have to start introducing role players, unless we count off every first option. Realistically I probably won't pick him for a while, but I'm trying to figure out what direction to go. If I'm choosing between just straight greatest players, I'd go either Ewing or Drexler here (in which case Frazier won't be for a while either).


Or pass, or make free throws. He didn't play like the best 3rd guy in league history for those last 2 Bulls championships, either. A perennial distraction whose drinking/partying affected his on court performance.

Was he the 3rd best player on those bad-boy Pistons? Or was it Laimbeer? Hmmmm, I've never really thought about it. I'll look into it....

I was counting free throws in scoring...besides, he didn't go to the line often enough that it made a difference. His passing wasn't awful, he just didn't handle the ball very often and didn't pile up many assists. fwiw Laimbeer is very underrated nowadays, though (but I'd put Rodman ahead of him).


And Dennis Rodman could pass his ass off.......

lol I'm somewhere between oolalaa and yourself on this

[TheBigVeto]

WTF? Wade is top 30? Dude isn't even top 10 GOAT SGs.

[Freedom Kid7]

Wade over Stockton? :biggums:

That blows my mind Stock isn't up here at this point. Probably the ultimate 'true' PG as Isiah, Magic and Oscar handled scoring abilities while he just passed and played smart and did it like a boss

[Hittin_Shots]

Stockton

[DatAsh]

lol I'm somewhere between oolalaa and yourself on this

I'm curious as to what a mathematically minded person like yourself thinks of "The Case for Dennis Rodman", assuming you've read it.

[fpliii]

I'm curious as to what a mathematically minded person like yourself thinks of "The Case for Dennis Rodman", assuming you've read it.

I've given it a look, but not a strong/complete read

there's a lot of cherrypicking involved in his work though from a cursory glance, which distorts his message

from my understanding his intention was to show that Rodman is not only a HOFer but a strong one; I think he definitely deserved to make it into the hall and is a top 50 player all-time in my book, but the guy makes some bold claims

I'll have to give it another look, but it's always possible to distort your dataset to produce a desired result

[L.Kizzle]

WTF? Wade is top 30? Dude isn't even top 10 GOAT SGs.
He's top 10 SG, but not top 30 player. HE's closer to the 40 spot.

[StateOfMind12]

Vote - Walt Frazier

I see a few problems with this all-time list so far

-Isiah shouldn't be above Frazier or in the top 30 to be exact.
-Hondo shouldn't be in the top 30 either
-Dirk should be about 4-5 spots higher, next to Barkley, higher imo.

Aside from those minor deficits, it's been a decent list.

[WillC]

John Stockton.

All the ISH teenagers see Stockton's skin colour and immediately discount him. Time to do some homework on him, kids.

Maybe start with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAPu4nLzDbQ

Then go dig out some of his old games so you can see the complete package rather than just the highlights.

[therammingman]

payton

[WillC]

Wade over Stockton? :biggums:

That blows my mind Stock isn't up here at this point. Probably the ultimate 'true' PG as Isiah, Magic and Oscar handled scoring abilities while he just passed and played smart and did it like a boss

You have to bear in mind the age of most of the voters. I'm guessing that the majority of people who voted for Wade over Stockton are under the age of 18.

[Deuce Bigalow]

if willis Reed had a longer career he would be argued as a top 12-13 all time player

he beat wilt/baylor/west in the nba finals in 70

then he beat wilt/goodrich/west in the nba finals in 73

( both times as his teams best player and finals mvp )

and he won a regular season mvp


atleast put him top 30 for god sakes

This a vote for Reed?

Wade over Stockton? :biggums:

That blows my mind Stock isn't up here at this point. Probably the ultimate 'true' PG as Isiah, Magic and Oscar handled scoring abilities while he just passed and played smart and did it like a boss
This a vote for Stockton?

[Legends66NBA7]

Wade over Stockton? :biggums:

:oldlol:

Can someone honestly give me a proper answer on the huge shock of Wade over Stockton ?

[Poetry]

but I don't know how people are ranking Stockton over Ewing.

Problem is Ewing should have been on the board a while ago. Stockton too in my opinion.

[DatAsh]

:oldlol:

Can someone honestly give me a proper answer on the huge shock of Wade over Stockton ?

It has to be based off of longevity. A healthy Wade from his 3rd season on is a better player than Stockton ever was, but 19 quality seasons is hard to ignore.

Think of it like this - What gives me a better chance of winning more championships, 9 years of Dwyane Wade(2 of which he was injured a good portion), or 19 years of John Stockton?

I'd still side with Wade just because he was that much better than Stockton, but I can still see where people might go with Stockton.

[pauk]

I bet if Willis Reed saw this thread he would go something like:

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/cannot%20unsee%20what%20has%20been%20seen/grand/computer-suicide-cannot-unsee-what-has-been-seen-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-337.gif

[Legends66NBA7]

Problem is Ewing should have been on the board a while ago. Stockton too in my opinion.

I wouldn't disagree with that. These rankings are always tricky when you try to add more to the criteria.


It has to be based off of longevity. A healthy Wade from his 3rd season on is a better player than Stockton ever was, but 19 quality seasons is hard to ignore.

Think of it like this - What gives me a better chance of winning more championships, 9 years of Dwyane Wade(2 of which he was injured a good portion), or 19 years of John Stockton?

I'd still side with Wade just because he was that much better than Stockton, but I can still see where people might go with Stockton.

Yeah, I can see what they mean, when you put it that way.

Even so, Stockton was always the sidekick. He was never the best player on his team. Wade was. And when you put into context the playoffs... it really has to go to Wade.

Eventually, I can see of people give Wade over Stockton clearly, when Wade gets more rings, but that doesn't he mean necessarily will play better than his past years. I also don't like that kind of reasoning.

[alenleomessi]

drexler

[wally_world]

Steve Nash :pimp:

[silenc]

Allen Iverson

[Lil-Wild]

Stockton

[shallehalle]

It has to be based off of longevity. A healthy Wade from his 3rd season on is a better player than Stockton ever was, but 19 quality seasons is hard to ignore.

Think of it like this - What gives me a better chance of winning more championships, 9 years of Dwyane Wade(2 of which he was injured a good portion), or 19 years of John Stockton?

I'd still side with Wade just because he was that much better than Stockton, but I can still see where people might go with Stockton.
In 9 years Wade won 2 titles, Stockton hasn't won playing 19 years in the League, so i won't try and think that way

Stockton is an amazing player and a great teammate who can run plays and control the tempo of the game, Wade can take a game in his hands and win it, there is the difference

[magictricked]

Problem is Ewing should have been on the board a while ago. Stockton too in my opinion. Easily.

Problem is with these types of things at the start everyone is lasered in on the top guys. Everyone knows who's a top 10 player, 10-15 is fairly easy other than shuffling them up and down a spot or two it's somewhat preordained who you're going to vote for.

Once you get into the 20's though all bets are off, the role players start creeping into the discussion with the great players with secondary roles or shorter careers. With no clear cut rules to serve as a baseline for inclusion in the discussion the voting is all over the place

[fpliii]

I've decided to go with Ewing over Drexler

anchored the 2nd and 4th best defenses of all-time relative to league averages (the other two being the 75 Bullets and the 08 Celtics; Russell's Celtics were consistently the best but didn't have any outlier seasons)

[Dragonyeuw]

Think of it like this - What gives me a better chance of winning more championships, 9 years of Dwyane Wade(2 of which he was injured a good portion), or 19 years of John Stockton?



Considering Wade won two rings in 9 seasons as 1st or 2nd option and basically willed Miami to a title in 2006( questionable ref calls aside, that was an epic performance by any measure, and let's not forget Wade was just as good against the Pistons the previous round), and Stockton won zero in 19, odds are your chances are better with Wade. Stockton's a top 5 GOAT PG, top 3 GOAT passer, but he was not an alpha talent who could put a team on his back. Wade was very much a franchise-level alpha talent from 2005-2011.

[Dragonyeuw]

Easily.

Problem is with these types of things at the start everyone is lasered in on the top guys. Everyone knows who's a top 10 player, 10-15 is fairly easy other than shuffling them up and down a spot or two it's somewhat preordained who you're going to vote for.

Once you get into the 20's though all bets are off, the role players start creeping into the discussion with the great players with secondary roles or shorter careers. With no clear cut rules to serve as a baseline for inclusion in the discussion the voting is all over the place

This.

[BoutPractice]

Willis Reed probably has the best resume and biggest impact of those left.
2 championships, 1 MVP, two Finals MVP, stepped up in the playoffs (averaged 24 and 14 his first championship year) and considered a great defender.
My vote goes to him.

[Kblaze8855]

I get the feeling that a lot of people never looked into Dave Cowens. He damn near won 2 MVPs(won one), won 2 rings, and unlike Reed wasnt something of a role player for one of them. For all the finals MVP talk...Reed was a 13/8 player those playoffs and only played like 10 more games in his career...he was done a couple years before their second ring. He wasnt an all star...or all nba...or anything. He was barely hanging on in the league having been hurt for like 3 years. He was finals MVP but he wasnt Willis Reed anymore.

And I respect reed more than I think most do. He was something in his youth. Footage of him in the 60s....dude was nice. Post moves...jumpers...ran the floor. Blocked shots. I could see him being great today.

But that second ring? He wasnt himself by then.

[fpliii]

I get the feeling that a lot of people never looked into Dave Cowens. He damn near won 2 MVPs(won one), won 2 rings, and unlike Reed wasnt something of a role player for one of them. For all the finals MVP talk...Reed was a 13/8 player those playoffs and only played like 10 more games in his career...he was done a couple years before their second ring. He wasnt an all star...or all nba...or anything. He was barely hanging on in the league having been hurt for like 3 years. He was finals MVP but he wasnt Willis Reed anymore.

And I respect reed more than I think most do. He was something in his youth. Footage of him in the 60s....dude was nice. Post moves...jumpers...ran the floor. Blocked shots. I could see him being great today.

But that second ring? He wasnt himself by then.

how much do you penalize Reed & Cowens for having their greatest success while the ABA was still around?

[BoutPractice]

Cowens definitely deserves mention in those spots.
Truth is, I've actually watched more of Cowens than I have of Reed. He was absolutely awesome, the kind of player everyone wants on his team, but it seemed to me prime Reed was considered to be a better individual player.

[Snoop_Cat]

Patrick Ewing isn't even the greatest Knick ever.

Vote here is Walt Frazier.

[dunksby]

Willis Reed.

[MasterDurant24]

Where do people have Drexler or Kevin McHale at? They have to be near this high around Stockton and Ewing if they are going to get voted this high.

[crisoner]

OK is number 30 decided yet?

[Deuce Bigalow]

#30 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops Voting

11- Willis Reed
9- John Stockton
5- Patrick Ewing
4- Walt Frazier
2- Steve Nash
2- Clyde Drexler
1- Allen Iverson
1- Elvin Hayes
1- Gary Payton

[Heilige]

Willis Reed

[blablabla]

reed

[kurple]

Current Results (updated)

10- Willis Reed
9- John Stockton
5- Patrick Ewing
4- Walt Frazier
2- Steve Nash
2- Clyde Drexler
1- Allen Iverson
1- Elvin Hayes
1- Gary Payton
second time in a row you skip one Iverson vote........... not that it matters, but still. do your job right

[Deuce Bigalow]

second time in a row you skip one Iverson vote........... not that it matters, but still. do your job right
That Iverson vote came from a poster with 91 posts, under 100.
100 was the minimum post requirement to vote.

[Coffee Black]

Where are all the Knicks fans? I remember hearing a lot of them clearly say that Reed is not better than Ewing.

[TheBigVeto]

You have to bear in mind the age of most of the voters. I'm guessing that the majority of people who voted for Wade over Stockton are under the age of 18.

And they are definitely not white.

[TheBigVeto]

I get the feeling that a lot of people never looked into Dave Cowens. He damn near won 2 MVPs(won one), won 2 rings, and unlike Reed wasnt something of a role player for one of them. For all the finals MVP talk...Reed was a 13/8 player those playoffs and only played like 10 more games in his career...he was done a couple years before their second ring. He wasnt an all star...or all nba...or anything. He was barely hanging on in the league having been hurt for like 3 years. He was finals MVP but he wasnt Willis Reed anymore.

And I respect reed more than I think most do. He was something in his youth. Footage of him in the 60s....dude was nice. Post moves...jumpers...ran the floor. Blocked shots. I could see him being great today.

But that second ring? He wasnt himself by then.

Reed was very good but Cowens was great and was better than Reed.

[G.O.A.T]

Rodman is extremely difficult to place as a role-player, but he's what one might consider the GOAT in that regard (a super specialist in rebounding, man perimeter defense, man post defense)

I have players split into tiers based largely on their peak and how vital a role they could play at that peak to a championship contender. Rodman is my fourth tier, Elite Pieces/Circumstantial Alphas. These are players who didn't necessarily have the ability to be franchise players and contend for a title, but could be your 2nd-4th best player at any given point of their prime and help you win a title. They all have the ability to step up and win you a game or even a series (lots of finals mvps in this group) but over the long haul they are better suited outside of the alpha (best player) role.


his impact is undeniable, best third guy in league history

he literally did nearly everything on the court except score and anchor a defense, though those are the most important things a player can do

it comes down to when somebody wants to start including role players (and Rodman was a super role player, so to speak)

Just because it's fun, I'll grade Rodman in the ten most basic aspects of basketball:

Shooting: D
Scoring: D
Passing: B
Ball Handling: C-
Rebounding: A+
On-ball Defense: A
Help Defense: A-
Basketball IQ: A-
Energy/Hustle: A
Intangibles: B-

Overall GPA: 2.925

Doesn't reflect how good he was though because if you look at his three "weaknesses" as I see them, he rarely forced those elements into his game and his team never needed to call on him for those aspects of play so excluding those three, Rodman is a 3.21 guy. That seems about right, he's not the overall star, but if the right subject comes up, he's the guy you want.