#5 NBA Player Peak Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[fpliii]

Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 has been voted as the #4 NBA Player Peak of All-Time According to InsideHoops

http://www.warriorsworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Robinson-Vs.-Olajuwon1.jpg

Voting:

28 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom, bl2k8, lakerspng, crisoner, rhythmic †hesis, MisterAmazing, Eric Cartman, imdaman99, BuffaloBill, Vertical-24, KOBE143, swag2011, Asiantastic, The Choken One, Ne 1, Kobr, BlueandGold, therammingman, triangleoffense, ripthekik, Punpun, pegasus, MJ23forever, DirtySanchez, BlackJoker23, scm5, SwayDizzle, TheMarkMadsen)
23 - LeBron James 09-12 (LosBulls, pauk, Nash, TheCorporation, Rnbizzle, Poochymama, ScalabrineStan, KingBeasley08, #number6ix#, Hoiids, EnoughSaid, joeyjoejoe, AlonzoGOAT, BrickingStar, LEFT4DEAD, Pacers4ever, po3try, Quickening, arifgokcen, Mr Clutch Melo, lilgodfather1, tommy3, SilkkTheShocker)
10 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91, MiamiThrice, dyna, IGotACoolStory, TheBigVeto, ThunderStruk022, scandisk_, KG215, tmacattack33, chains5000)
9 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 77-80 (OldSchoolBBall, chazzy, Hands of Iron, It's A VC3!!!, SuperPippen, REACTION, Doranku, silenc, BlackVVaves)
3 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh, Duncan21formvp, Thorn)
3 - Magic Johnson 87-90 (Sarcastic, Deuce Bigalow, Freedom Kid7)
3 - Bill Walton 77-78 (fsvr54, G.O.A.T, fpliii)
2 - Arvydas Sabonis ??-?? (ThatCoolKid, Sakkreth)
1 - Elgin Baylor 59-60 (L.Kizzle)
1 - Dirk Nowitzki ??-?? (imgine)
1 - Kevin Garnett ??-?? (M.Bustly15A5RU8)

(votes from #1,#2,#3,#4 carried over; bolded votes are new to this thread)

[fpliii]

#4 Voting:

24 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad, Deuce Bigalow, kennethgriffin, KOBE143, ScalabrineStan, scandisk_, KG215, Hands of Iron, EnoughSaid, joeyjoejoe, imdaman99, Yung D-Will, Andi, BlackJoker23, Young X, IGotACoolStory, MisterAmazing, lilgodfather1, redhonda76, Dominator, Hittin_Shots, silenc, StateOfMind12, tmacattack33)
5 - LeBron James 09-12 (LosBulls, pauk, Nash, TheCorporation, Rnbizzle)
5 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom, bl2k8, lakerspng, crisoner, rhythmic †hesis)
3 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91, MiamiThrice, dyna)
2 - Magic Johnson 87-90 (Sarcastic, Deuce Bigalow)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh)
1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 77-80 (OldSchoolBBall)
1 - Elgin Baylor 59-60 (L.Kizzle) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276435)

#3 Voting:

22 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna, MisterAmazing, fpliii, IGotACoolStory, magnax1, RoundMoundOfReb, kurple, Hittin_Shots, Stern, Vertical-24, PoochyMama, lilgodfather1, Shade8780, silenc, chains5000, Kiddlovesnets, Freedom Kid7, upside24)
15 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad, Deuce Bigalow, kennethgriffin, KOBE143, ScalabrineStan, scandisk_, KG215, Hands of Iron, EnoughSaid, joeyjoejoe, imdaman99, Yung D-Will, Andi, BlackJoker23, Young X)
3 - LeBron James 09-12 (LosBulls, pauk, Nash)
2 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom, bl2k8)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh)
1 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91)
1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 77-80 (OldSchoolBBall) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276397)

#2 Voting:

29 - Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 (lilgodfather1, fpliii, Yao Ming's Foot, lakerspng, imdaman99, upside24, Carbine, RoundMoundOfReb, MiamiThrice, lilblingy, daily, shaq2000, pauk, Hands of Iron, CarlosBoozer, TerranOP, Vertical-24, joeyjoejoe, MisterAmazing, Deuce Bigalow, KOBE143, Hands of Iron, KG215, ScalabrineStan, BlackVVaves, Holy Random, tmacattack33, LosBulls, scandisk_)
5 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna)
1 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad)
1 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom)
1 - Bill Russell 62-65 (DatAsh) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276387)

#1 Voting:

22 - Michael Jordan 90-93 (Deuce Bigalow, Optimus Prime, KG215, Young X, DatAsh, swi7ch, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, TheMan, Poochymama, tmacattack33, KOBE143, Freedom Kid7, magnax1, Timmy D for MVP, scandisk_, Boston C's, alenleomessi, v1ncelis, Heilige, Owl, KOBE143, AK47DR91)
19 - Shaquille O'Neal 99-02 (lilgodfather1, fpliii, Yao Ming's Foot, lakerspng, imdaman99, upside24, Carbine, RoundMoundOfReb, MiamiThrice, lilblingy, daily, shaq2000, pauk, Hands of Iron, CarlosBoozer, TerranOP, Vertical-24, joeyjoejoe, MisterAmazing)
5 - Wilt Chamberlain 65-68 (IGotACoolStory, Mr Know It All, Psileas, julizaver, dyna)
1 - Hakeem Olajuwon 93-96 (millwad)
1 - Kobe Bryant 06-09 (LamarOdom) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276328)

[fpliii]

apologies for triple posting, but I just wanted to let everyone know voting will go until 8PM EST tomorrow

[Poochymama]

Lebron James

[IGotACoolStory]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_F5Rp0dBMz14/SglrhMoxrTI/AAAAAAAABVE/dMemo3_a6os/s400/LARRY+BIRD.jpg

[ThatCoolKid]

Sabonis

[DatAsh]

Sabonis

Interesting choice.

[MisterAmazing]

Kobe Bryant

[Eric Cartman]

Kobe Bryant.

[fsvr54]

Bill Walton

[oolalaa]

I'm sorry, anyone who votes for '09-'12 Lebron over prime Bird, Magic or Russell deserves to be maimed by a kolala bear.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VIHAb659hTM/UBpVu57HExI/AAAAAAAAIjc/WV7C54jGs2E/s1600/koala.jpg


Have people already forgotten the 2010 ECSFs and 2011 Finals already???? :banghead:

[DatAsh]

I'm sorry, anyone who votes for '09-'12 Lebron over '84-87 Bird deserves to be maimed by a kolala bear.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VIHAb659hTM/UBpVu57HExI/AAAAAAAAIjc/WV7C54jGs2E/s1600/koala.jpg


Have people already forgotten the 2010 ECSFs and 2011 Finals already???? :banghead:


Lebron James isn't even the worst vote in this thread.

[AK47DR91]

Bird's the word!

[imdaman99]

kobe

[tmacattack33]

I'm sorry, anyone who votes for '09-'12 Lebron over '84-87 Bird deserves to be maimed by a kolala bear.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VIHAb659hTM/UBpVu57HExI/AAAAAAAAIjc/WV7C54jGs2E/s1600/koala.jpg


Have people already forgotten the 2010 ECSFs and 2011 Finals already???? :banghead:

Yep, two bad series (including one...the 2011 series...that was more about Lebron's mental confusion of how to fit in with the team than his ability level) out of a period of four years means that this player was not an amazing player.

Wtf.

We are talking about peak level of play here. We aren't necessarily talking about how they performed. We only look at how they performed because that is the evidence to use when trying to evaluate a player's ability...and as said, two series out of four years is not indicative of a player's ability. Damn, i thought this was obvious.

[oolalaa]

Lebron James isn't even the worst vote in this thread.

I'm taking '06-'09 Kobe over Lebron, too. And I don't have to think twice.

It's interesting, no one has mentioned '02-'05 Duncan (You could extend it to '07 I guess). 2 championships, 2 Finals MVPs, only lost to the Shaq/Kobe led Lakers in the playoffs, 2 regular season MVPs. '03 Duncan was right up there with any single season in history.

[BuffaloBill]

Gonna go with Kobe here

[DatAsh]

I'm taking '06-'09 Kobe over Lebron, too. And I don't have to think twice.

It's interesting, no one has mentioned '02-'05 Duncan (You could extend it to '07 I guess). 2 championships, 2 Finals MVPs, only lost to the Shaq/Kobe led Lakers in the playoffs, 2 regular season MVPs. '03 Duncan was right up there with any single season in history.

I wasn't talking about 06-09 Kobe

[TheBigVeto]

Larry Bird

[oolalaa]

Yep, two bad series (including one...the 2011 series...that was more about Lebron's mental confusion of how to fit in with the team than his ability level) out of a period of four years means that this player was not an amazing player.

Wtf.

We are talking about peak level of play here. We aren't necessarily talking about how they performed. We only look at how they performed because that is the evidence to use when trying to evaluate a player's ability...and as said, two series out of four years is not indicative of a player's ability. Damn, i thought this was obvious.

You were not going to win a title with Lebron as your best player in 2010 or 2011.

Say it with me again....

You were not going to win a title with Lebron as your best player in 2010 or 2011.

One more time....

You were not going to win a title with Lebron as your best player in 2010 or 2011.

It's really that simple. His psyche was made out of paper mache.

[tmacattack33]

Hilarious.

It is well known that what makes Kobe have a case or top 10 in the legacy lists is his longevity.

At any one point in time, he had some things missing. Around 2005 and 2006, he was a terrible playmaker for his teammates. By the time 2008 rolled around and he learned how to facilitate, he wasn't so quick anymore.

Yet, because of fan boys, he has a chance to be top 5 peak of all time here with Kareem, Magic, and Bird hardly getting any votes.

[oolalaa]

We are talking about peak level of play here. We aren't necessarily talking about how they performed.



This is a dumb comment. You sure you don't want to take it back?

[oolalaa]

I wasn't talking about 06-09 Kobe

Yet, you still don't tell me who you were in fact talking about? Hmmmmm, okay.

I'm ignoring the Baylor vote. That's a little too idiotic. Kizzle seems to have deleted his post? Or maybe fpliii is seeing things?

[tmacattack33]

You were not going to win a title with Lebron as your best player in 2010 or 2011.

Say it with me again....

You were not going to win a title with Lebron as your best player in 2010 or 2011.

One more time....

You were not going to win a title with Lebron as your best player in 2010 or 2011.

It's really that simple. His psyche was made out of paper mache.

That's complete BS.

He got to the Finals as a 22 year old and the ECF as a 24 year old and had one of the best individual ECF's ever that year...yet he didn't have what it takes to win a championship. LOL.

Watch this video and stop saying stupid shit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyjCgfDDIrU

[ThunderStruk022]

Larry Bird.

:facepalm

At Kobe getting five votes already. The power of the Kobe fanboys is strong.

[DatAsh]

Yet, you still don't tell me who you were in fact talking about? Hmmmmm, okay.

I'm ignoring the Baylor vote. That's a little too idiotic. Kizzle seems to have deleted his post? Or maybe fpliii is seeing things?

Sabonis

[tmacattack33]

This is a dumb comment. You sure you don't want to take it back?

No.

We are looking at the player's level of ability. Their performance is the evidence we use to evaluate that.


After the 2011 Finals, in the pre-season player rankings, most people still would have considered Lebron to be the best player or second best player in the league, even though he did not perform like that in the Finals. It was obvious that his Finals play was an aberration. He had just had 3 great playoff series prior to those Finals and was obviously an amazing player.

[oolalaa]

Sabonis

Ah, missed that one :oldlol:

[DatAsh]

Ah, missed that one :oldlol:

I'm assuming he had multiple tabs open and meant to post that in the "Best Passing Big Men" thread.

[Duncan21formvp]

Russell 1963-1965

[oolalaa]

No.

We are looking at the player's level of ability. Their performance is the evidence we use to evaluate that.


After the 2011 Finals, in the pre-season player rankings, most people still would have considered Lebron to be the best player or second best player in the league, even though he did not perform like that in the Finals. It was obvious that his Finals play was an aberration. He had just had 3 great playoff series prior to those Finals and was obviously an amazing player.

It was the biggest choke job in Finals history, and do you know how I know it wasn't merely an "aberration"? It's because he choked in 2010 against the Celtics, too.

PAPER MACHE.

[ScalabrineStan]

LeBron

[DatAsh]

Russell 1963-1965

:cheers:

There we go

[KingBeasley08]

king james

[ThatCoolKid]

I'm assuming he had multiple tabs open and meant to post that in the "Best Passing Big Men" thread.

No I was completely aware of what thread this was.

[tmacattack33]

It was the biggest choke job in Finals history, and do you know how I know it wasn't merely an "aberration"? It's because he choked in 2010 against the Celtics, too.

PAPER MACHE.


Yet he still had 3 great playoff series in 2011, and one in 2010 before those two series u mentioned.

And 4 is greater than 2 obviously. So i have more evidence that he was great. And if you want to total in 2009 and 2011, he had 7 more great playoff series there. So 11 to 2 is our fight...i believe I win there.


And also, someone could just as easily vote for Lebron 2007-2009 here...so your argument here is just pointless.

[tmacattack33]

2012* ^

[scandisk_]

errrr Bird :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

This has to be Larry Bird in my opinion. I'd say either '84-'85 through '87-'88 or '85-'86 through '87-'88. Probably go with the latter.

After that, I'm down to Magic, Russell, and LeBron but I'm not sure on the order.

[tmacattack33]

"4 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91, MiamiThrice, dyna, tmacattack33)"



I don't think I ever voted for Bird (i think you misread my comment in the last thread about Hakeem, Bird, and Magic), but I'll let it stand.

[Vertical-24]

Kobe Bryant at his peak was nearly unstoppable when it came to the offensive end. I'm gonna go with one of the leagues premier, all time scorers, Mr. Bean.

[KOBE143]

Kobe Bean Bryant :rockon:

[#number6ix#]

Lebron

[Thorn]

Russell

[chazzy]

Kareem

[swag2011]

Kobe Bryant at his peak was nearly unstoppable when it came to the offensive end. I'm gonna go with one of the leagues premier, all time scorers, Mr. Bean.

Agreed, add my vote for Kobe as well. His peak is so underrated, makes no sense. He was beating teams entirely by himself with his amazing offensive repertoire. People forget that he literally had to score 40, 50 or more each night for them to have a fighting chance to win. He averaged 40+ points a month a few times as well. I remember teams were in locker rooms getting ready for their games but were watching kobe on tv to see what he was gunna do next, or how much he was gunna score.

So yea, add me in for Kobe.

[Asiantastic]

Kobe

[The Choken One]

Kobe.

Averaging 30 easily, and 40 at times while having 3 other starters than belong in the D-League.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Larry Bird

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/files/2011/03/os-kareem-abdul-jabbar.jpg
http://mediaoutrage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Kareem8mad.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/279338/thumbs/r-KAREEM-ABDULJABBAR-STATUE-large570.jpg

http://yourblackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/articleInline.jpg

[iamgine]

Dirk Nowitzki? I thought many people were saying how his 2011 performance resembled Hakeem's.

[KG215]

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/files/2011/03/os-kareem-abdul-jabbar.jpg

Oh crap, for some reason I was thinking he had already been voted in. That's my next vote then. Strongly considering changing my vote for #5 from Bird to Kareem, but for now I'll stick with Bird.

[tmacattack33]

Dirk Nowitzki? I thought many people were saying how his 2011 performance resembled Hakeem's.

I think this is one of the few instances where it gets tricky and what the OP said in his OP comes into play...he says (and I agree with this), that we should look at a player over a time period of at least more than one year.

One year (or in this case...20 games in the playoffs) can be the result of a player just catching fire (or getting cold) and might not be indicative of his true ability.

We obviously wouldn't just look at one game for example (for example...Tony Delk once scored 52 points on 27 shots) and say that that day was Tony Delk's peak and so Tony Delk should be top ten on this list lol.

Now where we'd draw the line (1 reg season and 1 playoffs, 1 reg season + the playoffs that year + the next reg season...or what) is up for debate. But I don't think we can just use 1 playoff run for this.

[KG215]

And is Kobe really about to get voted in at #5 or #6 all-time peak? Really? The biggest reason he's as high as #7 all-time period is due to his longevity, not his peak. He had a very good peak, don't get me wrong, but his offensive and defensive peak never coincided so it's hard to put him even in the top 10 all-time for something like this. His true peak (either '06 or '08) is not among the top 5 or even 10 all-time in my opinion.

[Hoiids]

Lebron

[tmacattack33]

And is Kobe really about to get voted in at #5 or #6 all-time peak? Really? The biggest reason he's as high as #7 all-time period is due to his longevity, not his peak. He had a very good peak, don't get me wrong, but his offensive and defensive peak never coincided so it's hard to put him even in the top 10 all-time for something like this. His true peak (either '06 or '08) is not among the top 5 or even 10 all-time in my opinion.

Yes. It is kinda hilarious how his peak would be ranked so high when the reason he is high on the legacy lists is his longevity and not his peak. I mean, if his peak really was top 5, then i guess on the legacy list he should be number 2 lol.

But he has so many fans on here (many of whom even have Kobe references in their user name) that we'll just have to deal with it.

We could all try to consolidate our votes onto one player, so then all the other votes wouldn't be spread out between Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Lebron, but that would be stupid and ruin the whole thing.

[RRR3]

This isn't a vote for LeBron, but I think people on here underestimate just how good he is in comparison to other greats.

[KG215]

Yeah, right now Kobe is running away with this.

Kobe - 15
Lebron - 10
Bird - 10

What a joke.

[Ne 1]

Kobe Bryant.

[rhythmic]

Kobe.
Effortless.

[KG215]

This isn't a vote for LeBron, but I think people on here underestimate just how good he is in comparison to other greats.

I'm not sure LeBron is done with his peak. As good as he was in 2009 and 2010 (and he was incredible) this seemed like the first season and postseason he put it all together and "got it." Who knows, in a couple of years he may be coming off three rings in a row or two in three years, and his peak will be 2011-2012 through 2013-2014.

I will say this, if he even has just one more regular season and playoff run like this one culminating in a title, it's going to be hard to keep him out of the top 5 of an all-time peak vote.

[EnoughSaid]

Going off on what I've seen as a basketball viewer, LeBron James. :bowdown:

[RRR3]

Mamba boys are absolutely relentless:lol What a joke this place can be sometimes. Might as well rename this site "InsideKobe" :facepalm

[KG215]

Honestly difficult for me to see any perimeter outside of Jordan to crack the top five. Jordan even doesn't match what they do defensively, but was nonetheless a dominant two-way player and the greatest scorer ever.

Well, to be honest, this isn't a surprise. There's a bunch of Lakers fans and Kobe stans on ISH. He's about to get voted as the #5 peak player of all-time, which is a joke, but there's nothing you can do to stop it.

[DatAsh]

And is Kobe really about to get voted in at #5 or #6 all-time peak? Really? The biggest reason he's as high as #7 all-time period is due to his longevity, not his peak. He had a very good peak, don't get me wrong, but his offensive and defensive peak never coincided so it's hard to put him even in the top 10 all-time for something like this. His true peak (either '06 or '08) is not among the top 5 or even 10 all-time in my opinion.

Well, look at the people who have voted for him. Kobe143, swag2011, The Choken One, indaman99, Ne1, rythmic+thesis. All of those guys are known for their extreme Kobe bias and or lack of any sort of objectivity when it comes to Kobe. I've seen Vertical-24 and Eric Cartman show objectivity on occasion, so I can't really say the same about them, and I've honestly never seen the other two guys, Asiantastic, and MisterAmazing.

It's gonna be he and Lebron for the #5 and #6 spots, you watch. We've got a bunch of kids who don't really care about objectivity. All they care about is getting their childhood hero as high up on the list as possible.

RealGM actually has a pretty solid list going at the moment, but that's because their only allowing the most knowledgeable and unbiased posters vote.

Their list so far

1. Michael Jordan '91, age 27
2. Shaquille O'Neal '00, age 27
3. Bill Russell '65, age 30
4. Wilt Chamberlain '67, age 30
5. Hakeem Olajuwon '94, age 31
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar '77, age 29
7. Larry Bird '86, age 29
8. Magic Johnson '87, age 27
9. Tim Duncan '03, age 26
10. LeBron James '09, age 24
11. Kevin Garnett '04, age 27
12. Bill Walton '77, age 24
13. Julius Erving '76, age 25
14. Oscar Robertson '63, age 24
15. Kobe Bryant '08, age 29
16. David Robinson '95, age 29
17. Dwyane Wade '09, age 27

[RRR3]

Well, to be honest, this isn't a surprise. There's a bunch of Lakers fans and Kobe stans on ISH. He's about to get voted as the #5 peak player of all-time, which is a joke, but there's nothing you can do to stop it.
Surprised he didn't get voted in higher than 8th in the GOAT list thread tbh considering the amount of Kobetards we have here these days.

[tmacattack33]

Kobe boys shoulda waited until at least number 9 (since 8 is the highest he can be placed on the legacy list...which would moreso be due to his longevity) until they started giving Kobe some votes.

And even still, if Kobe got voted in at 9 it'd be kinda off.

But 5 or 6 is just a complete joke and you are exposing your complete bias, lol.



TLDR; If you want to seem unbiased, at least make it somewhat believable and vote for your guy at a believable spot.

[rhythmic]

Well, to be honest, this isn't a surprise. There's a bunch of Lakers fans and Kobe stans on ISH. He's about to get voted as the #5 peak player of all-time, which is a joke, but there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Well, to be honest, if I valued opinion of people like you and the countless idiotic Heat fans with a driven agenda; we'd all presume that Kobe is the second coming of Jerry Stackhouse. :rolleyes:

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[tmacattack33]

Well, look at the people who have voted for him. Kobe143, swag2011, The Choken One, indaman99, Ne1, rythmic+thesis. All of those guys are known for their extreme Kobe bias and or lack of any sort of objectivity when it comes to Kobe. I've seen Vertical-24 and Eric Cartman show objectivity on occasion, so I can't really say the same about them, and I've honestly never seen the other two guys, Asiantastic, and MisterAmazing.

It's gonna be he and Lebron for the #5 and #6 spots, you watch. We've got a bunch of kids who don't really care about objectivity. All they care about is getting their childhood hero as high up on the list as possible.

RealGM actually has a pretty solid list going at the moment, but that's because their only allowing the most knowledgeable and unbiased posters vote.

Their list so far

1. Michael Jordan '91, age 27
2. Shaquille O'Neal '00, age 27
3. Bill Russell '65, age 30
4. Wilt Chamberlain '67, age 30
5. Hakeem Olajuwon '94, age 31
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar '77, age 29
7. Larry Bird '86, age 29
8. Magic Johnson '87, age 27
9. Tim Duncan '03, age 26
10. LeBron James '09, age 24
11. Kevin Garnett '04, age 27
12. Bill Walton '77, age 24
13. Julius Erving '76, age 25
14. Oscar Robertson '63, age 24
15. Kobe Bryant '08, age 29
16. David Robinson '95, age 29
17. Dwyane Wade '09, age 27

That's not a bad list.

Do you know where T-mac, Penny, and Grant Hill ended up?

[RRR3]

That's not a bad list.

Do you know where T-mac, Penny, and Grant Hill ended up?
I don't see a difference between peak T-Mac and Kobe/Wade tbh but T-Mac is my favorite player ever of course. :D

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

KG in 03/04

reg:

24.2 POINTS
13.9 REBOUNDS
5.0 ASSISTS
1.5 STEALS
2.2 BLOCKS

playoffs:

24.3 POINTS
14.6 REBOUNDS
5.1 ASSISTS
1.3 STEALS
2.3 BLOCKS

And those stats don't show his enormous defensive impact.

BUT ZERO VOTES AND KOBE HAS 5 VOTES ALREADY!!!!!!

un****ingbelievable

[SuperPippen]

Kareem, and I don't mean to condescend, but this list can officially be designated as shit if Kareem drops any lower.

This bias is just mind-boggling.

[rhythmic]

DatAsh, Kobe isn't even my favorite current Laker, let alone my favorite player of All-Time. But nice try.

Today is the first time I even see you post, yet somehow you know me?
I barely even talk about Kobe at all. :oldlol:

Last week or so I got into a few conversations, but mostly about how people are underrating the Lakers and overlooking Steve Nash's impact.

My real vote would be Kareem though, followed by Russell and then M.Malone. But I bet if LeBron was voted at 5th, it wouldn't be as big of a fuss even though Kobe at his peak destroyed teams, scored effortlessly and led his team to 3 final appearances in 5 years (06-10). :rolleyes:

Whatever, this forum sucks. I mostly visit video game forum and off-court forum anyways.

[tmacattack33]

KG in 03/04

reg:

24.2 POINTS
13.9 REBOUNDS
5.0 ASSISTS
1.5 STEALS
2.2 BLOCKS

playoffs:

24.3 POINTS
14.6 REBOUNDS
5.1 ASSISTS
1.3 STEALS
2.3 BLOCKS

And those stats don't show his enormous defensive impact.

BUT ZERO VOTES AND KOBE HAS 5 VOTES ALREADY!!!!!!

un****ingbelievable

No dawg, I think Kobe has more than 5.

5 is just the number of votes carried over from the previous thread's voting.

He actually has like 10 lol.

[rhythmic]

Kobetard commandment number 329: Anyone who disagrees with, or questions, the greatness of Lord Godbe, is automatically a LeBron/Heat fan and is therefore stupid and should be dismissed without a serious argument.

I'm sensing sarcasm? What you described is pretty much spot on, on this forum anyways.

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[L.Kizzle]

Once again ELGIN BAYLOR avg

35/17/5 ina 3 year span.

:biggums:

[Kobr]

+1 vote for Kobe (2006-09)

[rhythmic]

As much as I'd like to, I'm not going to derail a legitimate thread into another LeBron vs. Kobe war. But you have shown yourself to be quite biased towards Kobe, especially recently.

You're so full of shit bud.
We recently talked a lot and it was mostly about Lakers Vs. Heat. I don't even think I once even talked about Kobe, it was mostly centered around how I believe Nash will be the difference maker.

Give me three other incidents where I said something ludicrous about Kobe? I think you're butt hurt that I critisized LeBron recently, and automatically think I'm this biased Kobe fan.

Don't assume, you know shit about me.

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Legends66NBA7]

I could care less what you think of LeBron.

Really ?

[rhythmic]

Once again ELGIN BAYLOR avg

35/17/5 ina 3 year span.

:biggums:

That's the problem with this forum. Everyone's a statistical guru but a Stevie Wonder when it comes to analyzing the actual game. :facepalm

This is actually really easy; Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

[RRR3]

Really ?
Yep. Rhythmic seems like a good poster in general, just seems biased towards Bean the last few days to me.

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[swag2011]

And is Kobe really about to get voted in at #5 or #6 all-time peak? Really? The biggest reason he's as high as #7 all-time period is due to his longevity, not his peak. He had a very good peak, don't get me wrong, but his offensive and defensive peak never coincided so it's hard to put him even in the top 10 all-time for something like this. His true peak (either '06 or '08) is not among the top 5 or even 10 all-time in my opinion.

I'm sorry but can you just STFU about the "kobe stans" for once? EVERY SINGLE THREAD that has Kobe's name in it you just come marching in "KOBE THIS, KOBE THAT, HE"S OVERRATED, BUNCH OF LAKER FANS, BLAH BLAH BLAH". You don't stop whining about Kobe fans ever. You complain about all the Kobe stans, yet you along with several others are known as some of the biggest kobe haters. I don't see exactly what makes YOU any different from any of the Kobe stans. The stans have obsessive love for kobe, while the haters (like yourself) have obsessive hate for him. And don't give me the BS that you don't because every thread voting for Kobe in the past few weeks you've been in there just bitching complaining and moaning.

I voted for Kobe because I think he has an underrated peak. It's overlooked because he didn't win rings during that time period. Now that i'm thinking about it, i probably should've waited until the latter top 10, but i knew Kobe wouldn't be in the top 5 peak regardless of if i voted for him or not.

All people complaining about the huge amounts of kobe stans on here need to realize that if they wanted to, they could've EASILY voted Kobe the number 1 peak of all time. Then you'd all be pissed. But clearly they didn't. Why is it hard for you to see that maybe people think Kobe is 8th all time? That Kobe actually had a great peak that's top 10 worthy ( I agree it's not top 5)? It's really not that hard to believe.

Like i said earlier, you all are no different from the kobe stans. Vertical 24 (the guy with the Jordan avi) is probably the only unbiased poster on this site and even he himself voted Kobe. I will admit I am a bit more biased towards Kobe, but i realize i should've voted him near the end of the top 10, or right after it, but the point still stands.

Bottom line, stop bitching about kobe stans when you haters are no different.

[rhythmic]

He got my vote.

I said from the beginning:

1-2: Jordan, Shaq (either or)
3-5: Jabbar, Olajuwon, Wilt (any)

Eh, I would have Russell at #3.

1) Shaquille
2) Jordan
3) Russell
4) Chamberlain
5) Kareem
6) Hakeem
7) Magic
8) M.Malone
9) James
10) Bird

More or less... then Bill Walton, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Julius Erving, and Oscar Robertson are all pretty interchangeable to me.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yep.

Okay...



Rhythmic seems like a good poster in general, just seems biased towards Bean the last few days to me.

I didn't ask about him and couldn't really care less if he was biased or not, unless it was too absurdly bad levels.

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron's peak is starting to get about at the right spot, but not yet imo. I am going to go with KAJ here because he had some great seasons. I don't want this vote carried over if Kobe gets voted in there's no point in voting anymore if he does. He has a top 10 peak, but not top 7.

[RRR3]

I'm sorry but can you just STFU about the "kobe stans" for once? EVERY SINGLE THREAD that has Kobe's name in it you just come marching in "KOBE THIS, KOBE THAT, HE"S OVERRATED, BUNCH OF LAKER FANS, BLAH BLAH BLAH". You don't stop whining about Kobe fans ever. You complain about all the Kobe stans, yet you along with several others are known as some of the biggest kobe haters. I don't see exactly what makes YOU any different from any of the Kobe stans. The stans have obsessive love for kobe, while the haters (like yourself) have obsessive hate for him. And don't give me the BS that you don't because every thread voting for Kobe in the past few weeks you've been in there just bitching complaining and moaning.

I voted for Kobe because I think he has an underrated peak. It's overlooked because he didn't win rings during that time period. Now that i'm thinking about it, i probably should've waited until the latter top 10, but i knew Kobe wouldn't be in the top 5 peak regardless of if i voted for him or not.

All people complaining about the huge amounts of kobe stans on here need to realize that if they wanted to, they could've EASILY voted Kobe the number 1 peak of all time. Then you'd all be pissed. But clearly they didn't. Why is it hard for you to see that maybe people think Kobe is 8th all time? That Kobe actually had a great peak that's top 10 worthy ( I agree it's not top 5)? It's really not that hard to believe.

Like i said earlier, you all are no different from the kobe stans. Vertical 24 (the guy with the Jordan avi) is probably the only unbiased poster on this site and even he himself voted Kobe. I will admit I am a bit more biased towards Kobe, but i realize i should've voted him near the end of the top 10, or right after it, but the point still stands.

Bottom line, stop bitching about kobe stans when you haters are no different.
So much wrong with this statement (nothing against Vertical 24, though).

[rhythmic]

Why didn't you vote for Kareem in the first place, then?


BTW I vote Kareem as well.

I'm catching the troll disease.
But in all seriousness, the 06' Kobe is probably my favorite season from a player besides 89' Magic and 91' Jordan.

He was just so good at scoring. As dumb as his shot selections were that season, he literally made it look so effortless. It was an excited season for any basketball fan, arenas were full everywhere Kobe went that year. Guy was on a mediocre Laker squad receiving MVP chants in every arena including Boston.

As a Laker fan, it was a special season to me personally. A lot of memorable moments were created by Kobe, and they were even more enjoyable because I knew the team wasn't going anywhere anyways.

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[rhythmic]

Looks like a solid list, of course I didn't see a lot of the older guys play and am basing that off what I know about them. Anyways, so why did you vote for Kobe if you don't think he had a top 5 peak?

To piss people off.
I came in this thread, saw the results and decided to troll.

I mean, it's between LeBron and Kobe when guys like Kareem haven't even been picked yet?

Come on!

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[REACTION]

If either LeBron or Kobe get voted in at #5, the ranking will be skewed in my opinion. My vote is for Kareem.

[rhythmic]

Ah okay, well then I apologize for snapping at you:cheers:

Bro, I'm a Laker fan and you're a Heat fan...
We will be snapping at each other all season long, no need to apologize.

:cheers:

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[BlueandGold]

Bryant

35 ppg season in the slower pace per possession pace of the mid 2000s. Also 81 points in the modern era, as a SG?

[DFish]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[RRR3]

RRR3 doesn't even have a team. Bandwagoning, fairweather LeBron stan to the core. But he's like 15, so I suppose I shouldn't fault him for that yet.
I'm 20 but thanks for your concern. And if there was a team in St. Louis, I can promise you they'd be my team.

[Freedom Kid7]

:biggums: . LeBron vs Kobe again? Jesus

I'll pick '87 Magic.

[DFish]

if there was a team in St. Louis, I can promise you they'd be my team.

I doubt it. Your man-love for LeBron wouldn't suddenly cease.

[KG215]

I'm sorry but can you just STFU about the "kobe stans" for once? EVERY SINGLE THREAD that has Kobe's name in it you just come marching in "KOBE THIS, KOBE THAT, HE"S OVERRATED, BUNCH OF LAKER FANS, BLAH BLAH BLAH". You don't stop whining about Kobe fans ever. You complain about all the Kobe stans, yet you along with several others are known as some of the biggest kobe haters. I don't see exactly what makes YOU any different from any of the Kobe stans. The stans have obsessive love for kobe, while the haters (like yourself) have obsessive hate for him. And don't give me the BS that you don't because every thread voting for Kobe in the past few weeks you've been in there just bitching complaining and moaning.

I voted for Kobe because I think he has an underrated peak. It's overlooked because he didn't win rings during that time period. Now that i'm thinking about it, i probably should've waited until the latter top 10, but i knew Kobe wouldn't be in the top 5 peak regardless of if i voted for him or not.

All people complaining about the huge amounts of kobe stans on here need to realize that if they wanted to, they could've EASILY voted Kobe the number 1 peak of all time. Then you'd all be pissed. But clearly they didn't. Why is it hard for you to see that maybe people think Kobe is 8th all time? That Kobe actually had a great peak that's top 10 worthy ( I agree it's not top 5)? It's really not that hard to believe.

Like i said earlier, you all are no different from the kobe stans. Vertical 24 (the guy with the Jordan avi) is probably the only unbiased poster on this site and even he himself voted Kobe. I will admit I am a bit more biased towards Kobe, but i realize i should've voted him near the end of the top 10, or right after it, but the point still stands.

Bottom line, stop bitching about kobe stans when you haters are no different.

As I've said many times in many other threads, even before you came along. I'm not a Kobe "hater". I'm just sick of the Kobe "stans", "fanboys" or whatever else you want to call them. When I say I have no problem with Kobe being voted anywhere in the top 7-10 all-time, I'm not just saying that to cover my ass. I honestly believe his entire body of work warrants being considered a top 10 player all-time and can understand the argument for him being as high as 7th.

I do need to chill out a bit, I agree. It's just extremely frustrating to see so many treads started by or ruined by irrational and biased Kobe fans who do things like constantly downplay just how great Shaq was during the 3-peat, and all but discredit how important and good Gasol was during the back-to-back years.

If you or Griff, or any of these other Kobe fanboys want to have an objective unbiased conversation about him, I'm game. Just because I bitch and complain about his fans doesn't make me a "Kobe hater." Find me a time I've griped or complained about something absurd said about Kobe by one of his fans. I'm not complaining about people saying he's the 7th best player all-time or anything. I get upset when his fans act like it's a travesty when someone doesn't consider him top 5-6 all-time or something similar. It's not that I'm upset when they say he's top 5 all-time or whatever, it's that they act like it's a joke other people don't consider hi top 5 all-time or ruin what can be a fun and interesting thing like this with by skewing the results by voting him 5-10 spots too high. I'm sorry if you think I'm hating on Kobe for considering him being voted as having the 5th best peak of all-time is a joke, but it is.

And this isn't directed at swag2011, but I'm not a LeBron/Heat fan either. I've gotten into with pauk plenty of times over some his irrational biased LeBron threads and posts. That silktheshocker dude is a moron too. It'd just be nice to be able to do something like this without having it ruined by Kobe and LeBron fans; which, I know, is asking for the impossible due to how overrun ISH has become by them.

[fpliii]

OP is updated, let me know if your vote is incorrect



Yet, you still don't tell me who you were in fact talking about? Hmmmmm, okay.

I'm ignoring the Baylor vote. That's a little too idiotic. Kizzle seems to have deleted his post? Or maybe fpliii is seeing things?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7782210&postcount=13

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7784983&postcount=84



"4 - Larry Bird 84-87 (AK47DR91, MiamiThrice, dyna, tmacattack33)"



I don't think I ever voted for Bird (i think you misread my comment in the last thread about Hakeem, Bird, and Magic), but I'll let it stand.

sorry, pasted it in the wrong field; I've corrected it to Hakeem at #4 and Bird at #5

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[KG215]

Bryant

35 ppg season in the slower pace per possession pace of the mid 2000s. Also 81 points in the modern era, as a SG?

Compared to Jordan's insane scoring difference there was about a 10 possession per game difference in pace. That's not an insane difference like the 20-30 possession difference of the 60s and 80s, but it's still a good amount. That's a check mark in the Kobe column. Jordan's scoring seasons were more efficient and he sustained something similar to Kobe's '06 and '07 seasons over a longer stretch, but Kobe was a ton of fun to watch, and on an incredible level offensively in that two year stretch. Those two seasons also came after the defensive rule changes, opening things up for perimeter players a little more, and making scoring easier than it was for them from 2000-2004. I believe the new rule changes went into effect starting in 2004-2005.

I'm not trying to knock Kobe for that, I'm just pointing out that he didn't put up his insane scoring seasons in the really tough grind-it-out deensive era of 1999-2003/4.

Kobe's scoring seasons were extremely impressive, yes, but they didn't come in the grind it out defensive era 1999-2004.

And there's more to the game than just scoring. That's the reason you can make a very good case for the peak of a guy like Garnett over Kobe, because peak Garnett had a much more significant impact on the defensive end than Kobe. That, in itself, is a bit unfair to Kobe who just can't really have the same defensive impact as a frontcourt player, but it's the nature of the history of the NBA.

I voted for Jordan #1 which, the more I think about it, may have been dumb, because I don't believe his defensive impact at his best (as great as it was) was as impactful as someone like Russell, Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, or Garnett

[L.Kizzle]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[swag2011]

As I've said many times in many other threads, even before you came along. I'm not a Kobe "hater". I'm just sick of the Kobe "stans", "fanboys" or whatever else you want to call them. When I say I have no problem with Kobe being voted anywhere in the top 7-10 all-time, I'm not just saying that to cover my ass. I honestly believe his entire body of work warrants being considered a top 10 player all-time and can understand the argument for him being as high as 7th.

I do need to chill out a bit, I agree. It's just extremely frustrating to see so many treads started by or ruined by irrational and biased Kobe fans who do things like constantly downplay just how great Shaq was during the 3-peat, and all but discredit how important and good Gasol was during the back-to-back years.

If you or Griff, or any of these other Kobe fanboys want to have an objective unbiased conversation about him, I'm game. Just because I bitch and complain about his fans doesn't make me a "Kobe hater." Find me a time I've griped or complained about something absurd said about Kobe by one of his fans. I'm not complaining about people saying he's the 7th best player all-time or anything. I get upset when his fans act like it's a travesty when someone doesn't consider him top 5-6 all-time or something similar. It's not that I'm upset when they say he's top 5 all-time or whatever, it's that they act like it's a joke other people don't consider hi top 5 all-time or ruin what can be a fun and interesting thing like this with by skewing the results by voting him 5-10 spots too high. I'm sorry if you think I'm hating on Kobe for considering him being voted as having the 5th best peak of all-time is a joke, but it is.

And this isn't directed at swag2011, but I'm not a LeBron/Heat fan either. I've gotten into with pauk plenty of times over some his irrational biased LeBron threads and posts. That silktheshocker dude is a moron too. It'd just be nice to be able to do something like this without having it ruined by Kobe and LeBron fans; which, I know, is asking for the impossible due to how overrun ISH has become by them.

Ok but you have to look at it from the other perspective too. I wouldn't consider myself a complete Kobe "fanboy" or whatever, because i have Kobe ranked 7th or 8th personally myself. But when Kobe stans make those threads about him being 5th all time, I don't see why that is so hard to believe. Looking at his resume, body of work as a whole, it IS worthy or at least debatable that he is a top 5 player of all time, judging from his career. I personally don't think he is YET, but i've always said he has the potential to be, with 5th being the highest he can go. I really don't think that's a stretch to say either. Do i think it'll happen? Only time will tell, but i think it's a joke to think it can't happen just like it's a joke to think he's a top 5 player all time right now.

And when i say look at it from the other perspective, you have SO many Kobe stans going hard for him because of how underrated he is. He BARELY gets any credit for anything he's accomplished. People constantly downplay or overlook any of his achievements. You say Pau Gasol was important and should be praised during the 2 peat. Fine. I agree. But at the same time, NO ONE gives Kobe any credit or praise for the 3 peat. Isn't that contradictory though? (Not saying you don't) Looking at most of the all time great players in history, they've ALL had great teammates, great players around them. Only 1 person gets crucified for it, and that is of course, Kobe. They forget that MJ had Pippen, Shaq had Kobe/Wade, Kareem had Magic and vice versa etc. I could go on and on and on. They forget that not everyone in the top 10 won all their FMVPs, but since Kobe didn't win all his, he was carried, he only has 2 real rings etc. Dont' you see why Kobe stans will constantly prop him up?

I've always said Kobe stans may always overrate him, but it's because of how underrated he gets. It gets annoying to see people sit up and act like he literally wasn't one of the best offensive talents, no scratch that, one of the best ALL AROUND players ever. Like seriously, do we not realize that this guy started off riding the bench, and has been playing at SUCH a high level for so long? People forget that his generation (A.I, VC, t-mac) are ALL irrelevant. Kobe's still very much a top 5-7 player in the league and STILL keeping up with players who are way younger than him. Hell, Lebron and Durant grew UP watching Kobe, and Kobe is still being mentioned along the leagues best. His longevity is the so underrated.

All i'm basically saying is that there is an insane amount of Kobe lovers who will never fault him, but there is also the same if not more amount of Kobe haters who will never give him any credit. You seem to appear in the latter group, even if you deny it.

[KG215]

All i'm basically saying is that there is an insane amount of Kobe lovers who will never fault him, but there is also the same if not more amount of Kobe haters who will never give him any credit. You seem to appear in the latter group, even if you deny it.

I agree with this, but I think the Kobe fans have bred the Kobe haters. I've been on ISH since 2009 but I didn't really post in or read the NBA forum much until the last couple of seasons. Maybe there's always been a bunch of Kobe "haters" around but a big reason I didn't even bother with the NBA forum for a few years was due to the number of Kobe and LeBron fans/feuds I saw.

Looking back, I probably needed to word some of my posts differently, because I do see how it seems like I never give him any credit. But I do, even though it's poorly done. I've never been one of those that said Kobe was clearly Shaq's sidekick in 2001 and 2002 (he was in 2000 though) but have repeatedly said Shaq was 1a and Kobe was 1b in '01 and '02. And I've even gone far enough to say Kobe was the best player in the league in 2009 and 2010 even though many felt it was LeBron who was the MVP each season.

[StateOfMind12]

Kobe is going to win this, seriously? This is exactly why I didn't take much part of voting in these threads because I knew something like this would happen.

[fpliii]

Kobe is going to win this, seriously? This is exactly why I didn't take much part of voting in these threads because I knew something like this would happen.

still 19 hours left

[StateOfMind12]

still 19 hours left
19 hours left for more Kobe fans to vote for Kobe, maybe. I knew Kobe would finish ahead of Lebron but now he is going to finish ahead of Kareem, Russell, Bird, and Magic? That is just a shame.

[fpliii]

19 hours left for more Kobe fans to vote for Kobe, maybe. I knew Kobe would finish ahead of Lebron but now he is going to finish ahead of Kareem, Russell, Bird, and Magic? That is just a shame.

I think most of the Kobe/LeBron voters are more likely to vote earlier than later

could be wrong though

[StateOfMind12]

I think most of the Kobe/LeBron voters are more likely to vote earlier than later

could be wrong though
Honestly, if I were you I would make votings like this but with certain/selected members.

I am a part of the voting panel on another forum about the greatest peaks ever and their style is better.

You are pretty much letting randoms vote in this thread and these randoms could easily have multiple accounts and what not. I'm sure they do considering how I see posters I've never even seen post before all of a sudden vote in these threads. :oldlol:

[DFish]

RG, remember when you used to bandwagon Kobe from 2009 to mid 2011?

[fpliii]

Honestly, if I were you I would make votings like this but with certain/selected members.

I am a part of the voting panel on another forum about the greatest peaks ever and their style is better.

You are pretty much letting randoms vote in this thread and these randoms could easily have multiple accounts and what not. I'm sure they do considering how I see posters I've never even seen post before all of a sudden vote in these threads. :oldlol:

perhaps you're right, but I've listed the users in the OP of each thread, so people can pass their own judgements and include/exclude whomever they want

it would be pretty weak if Kobe-LeBron in some order finished 5th and 6th, but it's still 10x better than the lists we'd get on ESPN NBA General

[StateOfMind12]

perhaps you're right, but I've listed the users in the OP of each thread, so people can pass their own judgements and include/exclude whomever they want
I see that just about everyone that voted for Kobe is a huge Kobe fan so I'm not really surprised there.


it would be pretty weak if Kobe-LeBron in some order finished 5th and 6th, but it's still 10x better than the lists we'd get on ESPN NBA General
I'm on the RealGM voting panel. I do have some issues with how the RealGM votes have been but it's still better and it's already going to look better than what this one looks like if Kobe becomes #5 or #6.

I'm not sure why you would compare anything to the ESPN NBA General, that site is just straight up trash.

[joeyjoejoe]

Because its between kobe and lebron i'll go with lebron

[Doranku]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (77-80)

[iamgine]

I think this is one of the few instances where it gets tricky and what the OP said in his OP comes into play...he says (and I agree with this), that we should look at a player over a time period of at least more than one year.

One year (or in this case...20 games in the playoffs) can be the result of a player just catching fire (or getting cold) and might not be indicative of his true ability.

We obviously wouldn't just look at one game for example (for example...Tony Delk once scored 52 points on 27 shots) and say that that day was Tony Delk's peak and so Tony Delk should be top ten on this list lol.

Now where we'd draw the line (1 reg season and 1 playoffs, 1 reg season + the playoffs that year + the next reg season...or what) is up for debate. But I don't think we can just use 1 playoff run for this.

I thought peak is understood as a player's best performance for one whole NBA season only. No more and no less.

[TheCorporation]

LeBron Raymone James

[KG215]

Kobe is going to win this, seriously? This is exactly why I didn't take much part of voting in these threads because I knew something like this would happen.

That's what kinda pushed me off the ledge. Not that I don't think Kobe is/was really, really good at his best, but the fact that he's running away with the #5 peak of all-time vote over some of the guys you mentioned is a crime.

And fpliii, you know I respect you and I love the idea, but I do think that unless you set some sort of voting criteria, things like this get ruined. This will come off as more Kobe hating but, after looking at the votes for Kobe, about half of them were by posters who have shown time and time again they can't (or choose not to) be objective or unbiased when it comes to Kobe.

I will say this - and it's a big reason I find it hard to decide on Kobe - what do you do with him in a poll like this? His peak as a defensive player was in the early '00s during the 3-peat. He was a good defender, at times, later in the decade without Shaq, but he wasn't nearly as committed as he was during the 3-peat. Kobe's offensive peak came in '06-'07 but he wasn't nearly as good (or committed) on the defensive end as he was in '00-'01. Some of that was out of necessity due to his enormous offensive load, but still. And his all-around peak was probably '07-'08 or '08-'09 but, again, he wasn't the same defender as he was when he was at his best in the early '00s. He was good, but if you're truly considering his peak season (or consecutive seasons), he wasn't even one of the top 10 perimeter defenders of all-time. He could be that in stretches when he committed himself, but he just wasn't consistently great enough in those seasons as a defender for me to consider that version of peak Kobe one of the top 5 peaks of all-time.

If you could somehow take 2001 Kobe and combine him with 2008 Kobe, then you'd easily have a top 10 peak player of all-time. But he just wasn't at his peak on both ends of the floor at the same time. That's what makes Jordan so special. He was an offensive juggernaut in the late 80s and early 90s but those were also his best defensive seasons. And that carries a ton of weight since he's widely considered a top 3-5 perimeter defender of all-time.

I don't know, maybe I'm just looking at Kobe wrong, and should be combining 2001 Kobe with 2008 Kobe which would probably make a top 7-10 peak player all-time.

[swag2011]

I agree with this, but I think the Kobe fans have bred the Kobe haters. I've been on ISH since 2009 but I didn't really post in or read the NBA forum much until the last couple of seasons. Maybe there's always been a bunch of Kobe "haters" around but a big reason I didn't even bother with the NBA forum for a few years was due to the number of Kobe and LeBron fans/feuds I saw.

Looking back, I probably needed to word some of my posts differently, because I do see how it seems like I never give him any credit. But I do, even though it's poorly done. I've never been one of those that said Kobe was clearly Shaq's sidekick in 2001 and 2002 (he was in 2000 though) but have repeatedly said Shaq was 1a and Kobe was 1b in '01 and '02. And I've even gone far enough to say Kobe was the best player in the league in 2009 and 2010 even though many felt it was LeBron who was the MVP each season.

Fair enough. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the amount of Kobe stans/Kobe haters because I joined this forum just due to the amount of Kobe hate. I actually remember you saying that about the Shaq/Kobe thing but since then, it seems like any thread praising Kobe, you've quickly come in just to downplay him. But i understand where you're coming from as a whole though, b/c it can get annoying with the huge amount of Kobe stans (or anyone's stans) in here, but just trying to get you to understand it from the other perspective as well.

When the topic is not about Kobe, you actually make good arguments and try to be objective but it is what it is. :cheers:

And for the record, i DON'T think Kobe has a top 5 all time peak. But i think he does have an underrated peak. I should've waited to vote a little later, but the stan in me couldn't resist seeing everyone getting mad at Kobe being higher than x, y or z :oldlol:

[fpliii]

That's what kinda pushed me over the ledge. Not that I don't think Kobe is/was really, really good at his best, but the fact that he's running away with the #5 peak of all-time vote over some of the guys you mentioned.

And fpliii, you know I respect you and I love the idea, but I do think that unless you set some sort of voting criteria, things like this get ruined. This will come off as more Kobe hating but, after looking at the votes for Kobe, about half of them were by posters who have shown time and time again they can't (or choose not to) be objective or unbiased when it comes to Kobe.

I will say this - and it's a big reason I find it hard to decide on Kobe - what do you do with him in a poll like this? His peak as a defensive player was in the early '00s during the 3-peat. He was a good defender, at times, later in the decade without Shaq, but he wasn't nearly as committed as he was during the 3-peat. Kobe's offensive peak came in '06-'07 but he wasn't nearly as good (or committed) on the defensive end as he was in '00-'01. Some of that was out of necessity due to his enormous offensive load, but still. And his all-around peak was probably '07-'08 or '08-'09 but, again, he wasn't the same defender as he was when he was at his best in the early '00s. He was good, but if you're truly considering his peak season (or consecutive seasons), he wasn't even one of the top 10 perimeter defenders of all-time. He could be that in stretches when he committed himself, but he just wasn't consistently great enough in those seasons as a defender for me to consider that version of peak Kobe one of the top 5 peaks of all-time.

If you could somehow take 2001 Kobe and combine him with 2008 Kobe, then you'd easily have a top 10 peak player of all-time. But he just wasn't at his peak on both ends of the floor at the same time. That's what makes Jordan so special. He was an offensive juggernaut in the late 80s and early 90s but those were also his best defensive seasons. And that carries a ton of weight since he's widely considered a top 3-5 perimeter defender of all-time.

I don't know, maybe I'm just looking at Kobe wrong, and should be combining 2001 Kobe with 2008 Kobe which would probably make a top 7-10 peak player all-time.

3-5? I have him top 10 for sure, but it's tough to put him up there (won't argue with it though)

I'm personally biased in favor of bigs so I won't have Kobe for a few picks (I have Jordan at #5 on my personal list actually), but I can't fault those who do

if this does become a farce (regardless of results), we might have to stop this at #5 though

[MiamiThrice]

Yeah if Kobe wins #5 I'm not even going to bother clicking on these threads anymore. Just the Kobe riders coming in with their multiple Lakers24 accounts and voting for him. As a Miami fan it's also bad seeing LeBron go this high as well, but at least he has a peak that is actually GREAT.

[KG215]

3-5? I have him top 10 for sure, but it's tough to put him up there (won't argue with it though)

I'm personally biased in favor of bigs so I won't have Kobe for a few picks (I have Jordan at #5 on my personal list actually), but I can't fault those who do

if this does become a farce (regardless of results), we might have to stop this at #5 though

I was kind of just saying that, not stating it as my opinion or fact. What perimeter defenders do you have over Jordan?

Payton and Pippen? Pistons Rodman was really good defending a perimeter player, too. Then you've got other guys like Moncrief, Dumars, Michael Cooper, and Dennis Johnson. Walt Frazier was an incredible defender as well.

[fpliii]

I was kind of just saying that, not stating it as my opinion or fact. What perimeter defenders do you have over Jordan?

Payton and Pippen? Pistons Rodman was really good defending a perimeter player, too. Then you've got other guys like Moncrief, Dumars, Michael Cooper, and Dennis Johnson. Walt Frazier was an incredible defender as well.

Jordan
Pippen
Pistons Rodman
Cooper
Payton
Frazier

haven't seen enough of Moncrief+Bobby Jones, DJ+Dumars is in the same tier as Kobe

Kobe is up there, almost certainly top 10 IMO

[TheCorporation]

LBJ

[KG215]

Jordan
Pippen
Pistons Rodman
Cooper
Payton
Frazier

haven't seen enough of Moncrief+Bobby Jones, DJ+Dumars is in the same tier as Kobe

Kobe is up there, almost certainly top 10 IMO

Oh, I think you meant I was saying Kobe was a top 3-5 perimeter defender all-time. No, I think he's in the 7-10 range all-time. I meant Jordan is widely considered a top 3-5 perimeter defender of all-time.

And that's what's confusing about Kobe. What I consider his peak ('06-'08) he wasn't "top 10 perimeter of all-time" good. Mostly due to consistency but his best years as a defender came during the 3-peat.

[fpliii]

LBJ

already counted you (your vote isn't bolded since votes carry over)


Oh, I think you meant I was saying Kobe was a top 3-5 perimeter defender all-time. No, I think he's in the 7-10 range all-time. I meant Jordan is widely considered a top 3-5 perimeter defender of all-time.

And that's what's confusing about Kobe. What I consider his peak ('06-'08) he wasn't "top 10 perimeter of all-time" good. Mostly due to consistency but his best years as a defender came during the 3-peat.

oops sorry, misread

agree about Kobe's offensive and defensive primes not coinciding (though 08 and 09 he was close)

[therammingman]

kobe #8

[triangleoffense]

Kobe "Triple Ocho" Bryant (24)

[ripthekik]

kobe

[iamgine]

Jordan
Pippen
Pistons Rodman
Cooper
Payton
Frazier

haven't seen enough of Moncrief+Bobby Jones, DJ+Dumars is in the same tier as Kobe

Kobe is up there, almost certainly top 10 IMO
How about Bowen, Artest, Moncrief, Alvin, Battier, Kidd, Iguodala, Kirilenko, Marion, Prince....

[pauk]

Lebron James ffs... thru 2007-2012 he has broken all type of milestones, records, was a top 2-10 MVP vote getter all the time, got 3 mvps, was the best player in the NBA, took the worst Finals team in NBA history to be in a Finals, had one of the greatest championship runs by a FMVP in NBA history and so on...

LEBRON PEAK = domination, accomplishments, stats/productions (2nd highest most productive player in NBA history PER #2 right behind Jordan)...

[ripthekik]

Lebron James ffs... thru 2007-2012 he has broken all type of milestones, records, was a top 2-10 MVP vote getter all the time, got 3 mvps, was the best player in the NBA, took the worst Finals team in NBA history to be in a Finals, had one of the greatest championship runs by a FMVP in NBA history and so on...

LEBRON PEAK = domination, accomplishments, stats/productions (2nd highest most productive player in NBA history PER #2 right behind Jordan)...
also one of the greatest chokes in history - 2011

[AlonzoGOAT]

LeBron

[chains5000]

Bird

[BrickingStar]

The people's champion.


LeBron James

[LEFT4DEAD]

LBJ.

Only Kobetards can argue that Kobe's peak was better than LBJ's. Look at the list of posters who have voted for Kobe. Half of them should have been banned a long time ago.

[Pacers4ever]

Since this has turned into a Kobe vs LBJ peak thread it's LeBron for me.

[po3try]

LeBron!!

[silenc]

Lew Alcindor

[Sakkreth]

Sabonis

[rhythmic]

Lebron James ffs... thru 2007-2012 he has broken all type of milestones, records, was a top 2-10 MVP vote getter all the time, got 3 mvps, was the best player in the NBA, took the worst Finals team in NBA history to be in a Finals, had one of the greatest championship runs by a FMVP in NBA history and so on...

LEBRON PEAK = domination, accomplishments, stats/productions (2nd highest most productive player in NBA history PER #2 right behind Jordan)...

Kareem has never had a showing as pathetic as LeBron did in 07 or 11.
You seriously believe that a prime 7'3 KAJ had less impact then James? :facepalm

Lets face it, Kareem is the most succesful basketball player in history. If you include his high school, college and NBA career: the guy was not only dominant, but a winner at every level. In his prime, he had the most unstoppable shot in league history, anchored a defense, one of the greatest passers at his position and a proficient scorer.

The top ten should probably have 7-8 bigs because they naturally bring the most impact to the court. Magic, Jordan and LeBron are honestly the only guards/forwards I would consider on the list and James SHOULD NOT be higher then Kareem. That's honestly is a joke. Well, Bird as well of course...but he is on the cusp of being in the top ten, IMO.

Plus, why isn't Bill Russell getting more recognition? Because his FG% is low?
Bill Russell did more things then any basketball player I have ever seen do, to win basketball games. Peak wise, I would only take a peak Shaquille and Jordan over him if I wanted to win a championship. I just trust in his leadership and defensive prowess too much not to.

[G.O.A.T]

Well, look at the people who have voted for him. Kobe143, swag2011, The Choken One, indaman99, Ne1, rythmic+thesis. All of those guys are known for their extreme Kobe bias and or lack of any sort of objectivity when it comes to Kobe. I've seen Vertical-24 and Eric Cartman show objectivity on occasion, so I can't really say the same about them, and I've honestly never seen the other two guys, Asiantastic, and MisterAmazing.

It's gonna be he and Lebron for the #5 and #6 spots, you watch. We've got a bunch of kids who don't really care about objectivity. All they care about is getting their childhood hero as high up on the list as possible.

RealGM actually has a pretty solid list going at the moment, but that's because their only allowing the most knowledgeable and unbiased posters vote.

Their list so far

1. Michael Jordan '91, age 27
2. Shaquille O'Neal '00, age 27
3. Bill Russell '65, age 30
4. Wilt Chamberlain '67, age 30
5. Hakeem Olajuwon '94, age 31
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar '77, age 29
7. Larry Bird '86, age 29
8. Magic Johnson '87, age 27
9. Tim Duncan '03, age 26
10. LeBron James '09, age 24
11. Kevin Garnett '04, age 27
12. Bill Walton '77, age 24
13. Julius Erving '76, age 25
14. Oscar Robertson '63, age 24
15. Kobe Bryant '08, age 29
16. David Robinson '95, age 29
17. Dwyane Wade '09, age 27

No reasonable explanation for this...Walton was better than Kareem in 1977, so how is Kareem's peak greater? A healthy prime Walton is always a better choice than any version of Kareem.

Hakeem still too high, and Russell over Wilt makes little sense to me either.

[Nash]

30ppg/9ast/7reb on 50%
The man that almost averages a triple double with 30 points and who greats like Bird and Magic compare to Jordan. That's who I'll be voting.

Lebron James

[Quickening]

Lebron

[Punpun]

I'd have to go with Kobe.

[fpliii]

Lebron James ffs... thru 2007-2012 he has broken all type of milestones, records, was a top 2-10 MVP vote getter all the time, got 3 mvps, was the best player in the NBA, took the worst Finals team in NBA history to be in a Finals, had one of the greatest championship runs by a FMVP in NBA history and so on...

LEBRON PEAK = domination, accomplishments, stats/productions (2nd highest most productive player in NBA history PER #2 right behind Jordan)...


30ppg/9ast/7reb on 50%
The man that almost averages a triple double with 30 points and who greats like Bird and Magic compare to Jordan. That's who I'll be voting.

Lebron James

votes carry over, so I already had both of you in

it's looking like Kobe and LeBron are gonna finish 5-6 in some order

personally, I'm trying to decide whether to vote for Bird or Russell right now; I've historically went Bird here, but Russell has a strong case (Walton and Duncan shortly after, probably followed by Kareem)

[pegasus]

Kobe.

[KG215]

Pretty sure Kobe (20 something votes) has more votes than Kareem and Bird....combined. LeBron is pretty close to having more than KAJ and Bird combined, too.

Welcome to ISH.

[KG215]

No reasonable explanation for this...Walton was better than Kareem in 1977, so how is Kareem's peak greater? A healthy prime Walton is always a better choice than any version of Kareem.

Hakeem still too high, and Russell over Wilt makes little sense to me either.

How high would you have '77 and pre-injury '78 Walton on a list like this? Because that player, in my opinion, was on his way to being a top 5 player all-time. He doesn't get hurt in '78 and the Blazers probably win the championship, giving Walton two rings as "the man" by age 25. He put up 19/14/4.5/3 in the regular season ('77 and '78) and 18/15/5.5/3.5 in the '77 playoffs. He was on his way to probably having a few 20/15ish/5/3 seasons, probably takes an MVP or two away from Moses, Bird, or someone else in the late 70s/early 80s, and might have snuck another championsihp or two in there before the Lakers and Celtics dynasties really went into full power.

There's little reason to think Walton wasn't going to finish with 3-4 rings, 3-4 FMVPs, 2-4 MVPs, being remembered as the best passing big man of all-time.

[G.O.A.T]

How high would you have '77 and pre-injury '78 Walton on a list like this? Because that player, in my opinion, was on his way to being a top 5 player all-time. He doesn't get hurt in '78 and the Blazers probably win the championship, giving Walton two rings as "the man" by age 25. He put up 19/14/4.5/3 in the regular season ('77 and '78) and 18/15/5.5/3.5 in the '77 playoffs. He was on his way to probably having a few 20/15ish/5/3 seasons, probably takes an MVP or two away from Moses, Bird, or someone else in the late 70s/early 80s, and might have snuck another championsihp or two in there before the Lakers and Celtics dynasties really went into full power.

There's little reason to thin Walton wasn't going to finish with 3-4 rings, 3-4 FMVPs, 2-4 MVPs, being remembered as the best passing big man of all-time.

Say 77-78 Walton stayed healthy through the mid-80's, he's probably top three all-time. He surely steals some titles from Bird, Magic and Kareem (all of whom I think he was better than in '77 than they ever were) and ends up right there with Jordan and Russell as the top three all-time.

[MJ23forever]

Bryant.

[fpliii]

Say 77-78 Walton stayed healthy through the mid-80's, he's probably top three all-time. He surely steals some titles from Bird, Magic and Kareem (all of whom I think he was better than in '77 than they ever were) and ends up right there with Jordan and Russell as the top three all-time.

hey, just wondering what your years are for Nowitzki's, Garnett's, Sabonis's (or is it Sabonis'? I was a math major, so I'm not certain with grammar) peaks? your ranges have pretty much been consensus for everyone else, so while I don't personally agree with those votes, I'd like to fill in your ideas of their peak seasons in the OP

(OT - I'm wondering if you read my responses to the Rodman discussion in the #30 voting, as I tried to explain myself; you can respond via PM if you want or in that thread so as not to mix up this discussion)

[oolalaa]

Say 77-78 Walton stayed healthy through the mid-80's, he's probably top three all-time. He surely steals some titles from Bird, Magic and Kareem (all of whom I think he was better than in '77 than they ever were) and ends up right there with Jordan and Russell as the top three all-time.

Walton would likely have had almost the exact same career as Tim Duncan. Does anyone consider Duncan to be one of the 3 greatest players of all time? Let's not get carried away. '02 & '03 Duncan was as good, if not better, than Walton was in '77 & '78.

[lilgodfather1]

Kobe :facepalm :roll: :lol :oldlol: :facepalm you've got to be kidding me... Kobe's prime certainly wasn't top 10...

[pauk]

Pretty sure Kobe (20 something votes) has almost more votes than Kareem and Bird and Lebron... combined.

Welcome to ISH.

Fixed and I agree...

[StateOfMind12]

If I had to make a top 12 peaks, it would be this...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Russell
6. Lebron
7. Bird
8. Magic
9. Kareem
10. Walton
11. Duncan
12. Kobe

I'm really not sure where Kareem's peak belongs but I don't think it's top 5. If his peak is top 5, I don't know how people don't call him the GOAT because his longevity is out of this world, his accomplishments are there, what else is he missing to be ahead of Jordan?

[arifgokcen]

lebron

[arifgokcen]

BTW i see a lot kobe he is not by any means top 5 even top 10.He is not statistically there.His awards during his peak(06-09) is MVP and FMVP(not two because he only won one FMVP during the same span.Can you please explain to me what he has over magic bird kareem etc.

[BGriffin's Dad]

6. Lebron
7. Bird
8. Magic
9. Kareem

:facepalm

[KG215]

Say 77-78 Walton stayed healthy through the mid-80's, he's probably top three all-time. He surely steals some titles from Bird, Magic and Kareem (all of whom I think he was better than in '77 than they ever were) and ends up right there with Jordan and Russell as the top three all-time.

Yeah, I'm pretty high on Walton's peak. Do you think that Blazers team stays together for the most part and is good enough to take a couple more titles from the Lakers/76ers/Celtics in the early to mid-80s?

Do you think he was trending towards being a 20 ppg scorer to go with the 14-15 rpg, 4-5 apg, and 3 bpg?

[KG215]

Fixed and I agree...

It's a bigger joke that he has more votes than Bird and Kareem combined.

Of course if you eliminated the Kobe fanboys votes, he'd only have about 7 or 8 votes instead of 20 something.

[fpliii]

It's a bigger joke that he has more votes than Bird and Kareem combined.

Of course if you eliminated the Kobe fanboys votes, he'd only have about 7 or 8 votes instead of 20 something.

tbh I'm hoping there's a tie between those two come 8PM

it's the only way of saving this poll (otherwise every successive thread will have complaining from one side or the other), as if we knock them both out in one vote we won't have to have two threads like this (I think if we have another, peoples' interest will completely dissipate)

[ripthekik]

81 points.. 2nd most scoring game in NBA history, highest in modern NBA standards.. and his prime isnt top 10? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Mr Clutch Melo]

Lebron James

[red1]

81 points.. 2nd most scoring game in NBA history, highest in modern NBA standards.. and his prime isnt top 10? :roll: :roll: :roll:
fukk outta here phong, you know full well that you are overrating kobe by voting him in at 5

[crisoner]

Kobe Bean Bryant

[red1]

:facepalm

[DirtySanchez]

The Black Mamba x10

[ripthekik]

fukk outta here phong, you know full well that you are overrating kobe by voting him in at 5
I am not phong, and like i said, the man can score 81 points in the modern era, his prime is definitely up there, unlike what a few posters said "not even top 10"

[lilgodfather1]

Well the Kobe stans have taken over. They are playing 500 on 5 in these games. The LeBron stans are pathetic too. LeBron's my favourite player, but damn the level of disrespect to great players is astounding.

We may as well vote the Great White Mamba as the #5 peak all time, because he's as close to that level as Kobe is...

[DirtySanchez]

Well the Kobe stans have taken over. They are playing 500 on 5 in these games. The LeBron stans are pathetic too. LeBron's my favourite player, but damn the level of disrespect to great players is astounding.

We may as well vote the Great White Mamba as the #5 peak all time, because he's as close to that level as Kobe is...

I agree I'm voting for Scal next

[fpliii]

Well the Kobe stans have taken over. They are playing 500 on 5 in these games. The LeBron stans are pathetic too. LeBron's my favourite player, but damn the level of disrespect to great players is astounding.

We may as well vote the Great White Mamba as the #5 peak all time, because he's as close to that level as Kobe is...


I agree I'm voting for Scal next

please don't derail the thread :cheers: as I said, if there's a tie then everybody can just disregard this slot

[red1]

I am not phong, and like i said, the man can score 81 points in the modern era, his prime is definitely up there, unlike what a few posters said "not even top 10"
kobe has had a top 10 career, but that has nothing to do with this poll. we are trying to see who had the most productive/dominant peak, and everyone voting kobe this early has missed the point

[BlackJoker23]

kobe

[KG215]

81 points.. 2nd most scoring game in NBA history, highest in modern NBA standards.. and his prime isnt top 10? :roll: :roll: :roll:

There's more to a great peak than one incredible scoring game. This seems to be the basis of why several of these Kobe stans are voting him this high.

And we're talking about peak, not prime. There's a difference.

[tmacattack33]

Again, a legacy list is made up of peak play + longevity (and rings).

The highest Kobe can be on a legacy list is 8 (which was also what he was voted at on the ISH legacy list thread).

And the reason Kobe can be so high as 8 on those lists is his longevity (and rings) more so than his peak play.

Therefore, the highest he can rightfully be on a peak play list is 9...even though even that would be kinda ridiculous and 15 or so would probably be his rightful place.




My vote for this spot was Bird. I will not be voting for this poll anymore due the ridiculousness of the above and Bird will be my last vote.

See ya.

[ripthekik]

There's more to a great peak than one incredible scoring game. This seems to be the basis of why several of these Kobe stans are voting him this high.

And we're talking about peak, not prime. There's a difference.
yes.. peak.. the man at his peak scored the second highest game in the history of the nba. is that not obvious enough?

[fpliii]

hm, I have an idea as to how to remedy this

Is everyone fine with saying that LeBron and Kobe are #1 and #2 of active players? If I get enough support, we can agree to restrict this to guys who are already retired.

[lakerspng]

Kobe is the 3rd most dominant scorer in the history of the game behind Wilt and MJ. There were stretches in his peak where he was just as dominant as either of them ever were. How can you say he does not belong in this conversation?

[KG215]

yes.. peak.. the man at his peak scored the second highest game in the history of the nba. is that not obvious enough?

One game doesn't encompass someone's peak. There's also another end of the floor.

[scm5]

Kobe.

[red1]

Kobe is the 3rd most dominant scorer in the history of the game behind Wilt and MJ. There were stretches in his peak where he was just as dominant as either of them ever were. How can you say he does not belong in this conversation?
That's because he doesn't dominate at anything other than scoring. Other great players dominated at multiple aspects of the game.

And even though he is probably be the most skilled scorer ever, that does not translate into efficiency. Two points scored on a triple-teamed fade-away is the same as two points scored on an easy lay-up.

[tmacattack33]

hm, I have an idea as to how to remedy this

Is everyone fine with saying that LeBron and Kobe are #1 and #2 of active players? If I get enough support, we can agree to restrict this to guys who are already retired.

No, you don't even need to do that, because that would take away Tim Duncan, Garnett, Wade, and Nash...as well as T-mac, Grant Hill, and Kidd who are still playing.

Also, if you take away current players, then we are voting on just past players of whom many people here didn't even get to see play. And that'd be stupid.

Just take away Kobe and Lebron.

Duncan, KG, Wade, and Nash don't have people worshipping them like Kobe and Lebron do.

[ripthekik]

One game doesn't encompass someone's peak. There's also another end of the floor.
Define peak. One game? One season? Three seasons?

Kobe can put up a case for all those scenarios. He didn't get lucky 1 night and got 81 points. He also scored 62 in 3 quarters, rang up 40 points for like 10+ games straight? Dude was a beast.

Defense? Who's to say his defense was bad? He was on the all-defense team in those peak years.

Scoring is a HUGE part of basketball, one of the most important skills a player can have is to score.. in fact anyone that can put up numbers consistently in this league can get a decent contract. And Kobe happens to be probably the top 5 scorer in the history of the game.

It's time you take off your lebron-love shades and your head out of your ass. You might have a different opinion on this spot.. but to say picking Kobe is outrageous? Come on, man.

[Ne 1]

There's more to a great peak than one incredible scoring game. This seems to be the basis of why several of these Kobe stans are voting him this high.

And we're talking about peak, not prime. There's a difference.

Kobe has the same issue that any wing player or point guard has when being compared with a big, other than that he is a top three non-big in terms of peak.

If you talk prime (2001-2009), he is well into the top ten...bigs included.

[tmacattack33]

Oh, and of course you can add current Durant, Dwight, Chris Paul (who's pre-injury 2008 form should be ranked very high), Deron, Carmelo, and Dirk to the list in my post above (3 or 4 posts above this).

So i mean taking away current players kills this.

Just take away Kobe and Lebron.

[shaq2000]

One game doesn't encompass someone's peak. There's also another end of the floor.

Kobe's scoring alone from '06 to '09 puts his peak in the top 10 conversation to me, although I don't agree at all with the posters saying that Kobe post-2003 was a bad defender.

But when it comes to the top 5, I don't think either Kobe or LeBron belong anywhere in there. Not above Kareem, Bird and Magic. I was going to vote for Magic or Kareem, but it looks like it wouldn't make a difference at this point. So if I have to choose the lesser travesty... my vote is for Kobe. Both are travesties, but putting a player who hasn't even completed his peak years in there above greats like Magic and Kareem is more of an outrage to me than putting in one whose peak years are definitely behind him and can be accurately analyzed.

[ripthekik]

hm, I have an idea as to how to remedy this

Is everyone fine with saying that LeBron and Kobe are #1 and #2 of active players? If I get enough support, we can agree to restrict this to guys who are already retired.
Why? because Kobe is currently leading?
Why go to such a cop-out move? To save face for Lebron?

Change the rules just so Kobe won't win it over Lebron? How's that going to give more credibility to the poll?

Just let it go naturally, and when the time is up, put up the name that has the most votes.

[fpliii]

Why? because Kobe is currently leading?
Why go to such a cop-out move? To save face for Lebron?

Change the rules just so Kobe won't win it over Lebron? How's that going to give more credibility to the poll?

Just let it go naturally, and when the time is up, put up the name that has the most votes.

I actually prefer Kobe to LeBron in general, I'm just worried that whichever side loses is going to kill the rest of the threads

[MiamiThrice]

I agree I'm voting for Scal next

Yeah I'm gonna vote in Scalabrine next too. Scalabrine at #6 is just as laughable as Kobe at #5. Mind as well turn it into a joke list. :oldlol:

[shaq2000]

Yeah I'm gonna vote in Scalabrine next too. Scalabrine at #6 is just as laughable as Kobe at #5.

Nah, that's hyperbole. You can say Kobe at #5 is just as laughable as LeBron at #5, but not Scalabrine. Kobe and LeBron are both all-time greats of the modern era who both, not coincidentally, happen to have a shitload of fans. Scalabrine in the top 5 would be incomparably mind-boggling.

[MJ23forever]

Kobe's scoring alone from '06 to '09 puts his peak in the top 10 conversation to me, although I don't agree at all with the posters saying that Kobe post-2003 was a bad defender.

His all-around play and defense from 2001-2003 was also astonishing.

[tmacattack33]

Define peak. One game? One season? Three seasons?

Kobe can put up a case for all those scenarios. He didn't get lucky 1 night and got 81 points. He also scored 62 in 3 quarters, rang up 40 points for like 10+ games straight? Dude was a beast.

Defense? Who's to say his defense was bad? He was on the all-defense team in those peak years.

Scoring is a HUGE part of basketball, one of the most important skills a player can have is to score.. in fact anyone that can put up numbers consistently in this league can get a decent contract. And Kobe happens to be probably the top 5 scorer in the history of the game.

It's time you take off your lebron-love shades and your head out of your ass. You might have a different opinion on this spot.. but to say picking Kobe is outrageous? Come on, man.

His scoring over the season was not that amazing giving his effiency level.

For every scoring great game he had, there must have been an equally bad game where he shot jacked and missed all his shots and killed his team.

And his playmaking ability obviously wasn't any good.



Again, if his peak play really is so high, then on legacy lists, given his peak play plus longevity, he should be number 2 behind only Jordan. Which is buffoonish.

[SwayDizzle]

Kobe

[swag2011]

Lol i love how mad kobe gets everyone. Ish votes hom number 8 all time, haters get pissed. Kobe voted top 5 peak of all time, haters are pissed one again. Love how kobe got these ho's still mad after 16 years

[lakerspng]

That's because he doesn't dominate at anything other than scoring. Other great players dominated at multiple aspects of the game.

And even though he is probably be the most skilled scorer ever, that does not translate into efficiency. Two points scored on a triple-teamed fade-away is the same as two points scored on an easy lay-up.

Actually he's one of the best defenders at his position in history. And in crunch time one of the most dominant shut down perimeter defenders I've ever seen.

He was in the discussion for the best all around player in the league for much of his career and was a tremendous playmaker.

calling Kobe a one dimensional player is so clearly incorrect that it's simply ridiculous.

[LosBulls]

Allen Iverson

[Ne 1]

BTW i see a lot kobe he is not by any means top 5 even top 10.He is not statistically there.His awards during his peak(06-09) is MVP and FMVP(not two because he only won one FMVP during the same span.Can you please explain to me what he has over magic bird kareem etc.

That's the thing with Kobe, and potentially one of his greatest drawback, unlike other all time greats, he doesn't have a clear 3 year peak. Kobe had a peak that lasted from 2001-2003, and then another one that lasted 2006-2008 (with the rape case smack dab in the middle).

[BlackVVaves]

Kareem, 77-80.

[KG215]

As for LeBron, I'm sitting on the fence about this season ('11-'12) being the start of his peak).

Like with so many other all-time greats he just had his best season start to finish at age 27. Maybe it wasn't his best statistical season and winning a championship was easier with Wade and Bosh than Mo Williams Zydrunas Ilgauskas, but this seemed to be the year he put it all together. I also felt it was his best all-around defensive season. So, I'm hesitant to put him as high as #5 or #6 right now, because he may have just started his best "all-around" peak. If he goes on to do this for another couple of seasons and wins another ring or two, then I can definitely see the case for him being as high as top 5 all-time for something like this.

[chazzy]

As for LeBron, I'm sitting on the fence about this season ('11-'12) being the start of his peak).

Like with so many other all-time greats he just had his best season start to finish at age 27. Maybe it wasn't his best statistical season and winning a championship was easier with Wade and Bosh than Mo Williams Zydrunas Ilgauskas, but this seemed to be the year he put it all together. I also felt it was his best all-around defensive season. So, I'm hesitant to put him as high as #5 or #6 right now, because he may have just started his best "all-around" peak. If he goes on to do this for another couple of seasons and wins another ring or two, then I can definitely see the case for him being as high as top 5 all-time for something like this.
In terms of on court ability, I thought he was better in 09 and 10. This year he played with a lot of effort and sustained consistency throughout the entire playoffs, most notably on the glass and battling in the paint. His shooting was better back then as was his ability to create for himself in the half court.

[lilgodfather1]

I might as well change my vote from KAJ to LeBron... At least there is a chance that an actual top 7 peak player gets into the top 5 rather than a borderline top 10 peak player.

[KG215]

In terms of on court ability, I thought he was better in 09 and 10. This year he played with a lot of effort and sustained consistency throughout the entire playoffs, most notably on the glass and battling in the paint. His shooting was better back then as was his ability to create for himself in the half court.

I agree, especially with the shooting part and scoring in the half court. I just don't think it was by a big margin. There's been other all-time greats who did certain things in terms of on court ability when they were in their younger physical prime seasons of 22-25ish but hadn't ever put it all together yet. That's what I think we saw from LeBron this year. Like you said, he was more consistent in the playofs. He seemed to find the right balance of "distributor/playmaker" mode and "takeover/scorer" mode, added the best version of his post game (he was an animal on the block in the Finals) and, like I said, it was his best all-around defensive season.

I'm just in wait-and-see mode with his peak righ tnow. In 3-5 years we'll either be looking back and saying '08-'09 through '11-'12 was his multi-year peak with the '11-'12 season being his absolute peak, or we'll be saying '11-'12 was the start of his "'1990-1993 Jordanesque" peak where he put it all together, played more consistently, found the balance between taking over and getting teammates involved, and defending at an elite level.

Remember that Jordan, even going into the 1991 playoffs, people still had major questions as to whether he could lead a team to a championship or not. He was still fighting the "too selfish/shot-jacker" label. I think '87-'89/90 Jordan was similar to '08-'10 LeBron in the sense that he was probably an even more capable scorer/player on the court but he was still missing several things.

[tommy3]

lebron james

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe Bryant

[RRR3]

Op, crisOner=dirtysanchez. Lol at that kobetard trying to stack the deck for Kobe :facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lebron

[BlackVVaves]

Anyone voting for Lebron or Kobe at this juncture of the list should be ashamed of themselves.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Almost every poster that voted for Kobe is a Laker fan :oldlol:

[KG215]

And what are the posters, like yourself, that voted for LeBron?

[Freedom Kid7]

And what are the posters, like yourself, that voted for LeBron?
LeBron fans :confusedshrug:
If Kobe gets #5 and LeBron #6, then :facepalm . I'd take Duncan in '03 over both those guys (none of them have a case for a top 5 peak though). I'm still going with '87 Magic due to how he scored, passed and handled the offense like nobodies business. He made that team the GOAT Team (in my mind, I know it might seem crazy but whatever). He continued to make his teammates great, yada yada.

[KG215]

Well, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Duncan have a better case for this high than Kobe. I'd say Bill Walton, too, but he only had a 1.5 year peak/prime that was ended by injuries.

[Freedom Kid7]

Well, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Duncan have a better case for this high than Kobe. I'd say Bill Walton, too, but he only had a 1.5 year peak/prime that was ended by injuries.
I'd actually take Walton's prime over Kareem's prime, but that's just me :confusedshrug: . He beat Walton in '77, probably had better leadership qualities, rebounded about the same, and Walton couldn't score like Kareem, but Kareem couldn't pass like Walton so :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

Well, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Duncan have a better case for this high than Kobe. I'd say Bill Walton, too, but he only had a 1.5 year peak/prime that was ended by injuries.


I'd actually take Walton's prime over Kareem's prime, but that's just me :confusedshrug: . He beat Walton in '77, probably had better leadership qualities, rebounded about the same, and Walton couldn't score like Kareem, but Kareem couldn't pass like Walton so :confusedshrug:

hey guys, voting is complete:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276556

feel free to discuss results in the new thread

[G.O.A.T]

hey, just wondering what your years are for Nowitzki's, Garnett's, Sabonis's (or is it Sabonis'? I was a math major, so I'm not certain with grammar) peaks? your ranges have pretty much been consensus for everyone else, so while I don't personally agree with those votes, I'd like to fill in your ideas of their peak seasons in the OP

For Nowitzki I'd say 2005-2008. After Nash left he really showed that he was a franchise player. It's hard to leave out the title year, but that wasn't a great season for him, just a phenomenal playoff run.

For Garnett it'd be 2002-2005. He was pretty much unstoppable then. I don't like that the T-Pups missed the postseason in 2005. but when you consider that Cassell was only healthy for about 40% of the season (started like 35 games), that they changed coaches that year mid-season (GM McHale took over) and went 10-4 down the stretch and missed the playoffs by one game, hard to fault KG. In the East that year they'd have been the sixth seed.

Sabonis I am not sure honestly, It'd be insincere for me to pretend I've watched, seen or read anything about Sabonis during his prime years (playing in the USSR) that gives me a firm grasp on the type of player he was. I'd guess, if I had to, 85-88. My reasoning, he was first drafted in 1985 and in 1988 he lead the Soviets to the Gold Medal and was very clearly a dominant player at any level. A guy that big is likely to peak early, so 22-25 seems like a reasonable age to estimate.



Yeah, I'm pretty high on Walton's peak. Do you think that Blazers team stays together for the most part and is good enough to take a couple more titles from the Lakers/76ers/Celtics in the early to mid-80s?

Do you think he was trending towards being a 20 ppg scorer to go with the 14-15 rpg, 4-5 apg, and 3 bpg?

I think it more likely he'd have had a 6-7 apg season. Had his team been depleted by injuries or just needed him to score more I think he could give you 23-26 ppg on strong efficiency, but to do so he;d have to sacrifice a good deal of his play making. Acknowledging the heavy attention he always got, Walton became a pass first player. Anyone who can shoot 21-22 in an NCAA title game and doesn't "need" to be a major scorer in the NBA is an amazing phenomenon to me. To have the confidence in yourself to be that good under that type of pressure and to accept that you don't need to be that guy ever again...amazing! Only Russell proved he was clearly a greater winner, and had it not been for injuries, I do believe Walton would have rivaled him.

[KG215]

I think it more likely he'd have had a 6-7 apg season. Had his team been depleted by injuries or just needed him to score more I think he could give you 23-26 ppg on strong efficiency, but to do so he;d have to sacrifice a good deal of his play making. Acknowledging the heavy attention he always got, Walton became a pass first player. Anyone who can shoot 21-22 in an NCAA title game and doesn't "need" to be a major scorer in the NBA is an amazing phenomenon to me. To have the confidence in yourself to be that good under that type of pressure and to accept that you don't need to be that guy ever again...amazing! Only Russell proved he was clearly a greater winner, and had it not been for injuries, I do believe Walton would have rivaled him.

Thanks for the response. Walton is one of the most intriguing players ever. I mean have we ever seen a player show flashes and the makings of a top 3-10 player all-time, only to completely disappear (in regards to being ranked that high) due to injuries? Sure, there's been other guys that have 2-3 year peaks that rival the best of all-time but aren't considered top 40/50 guys, but Walton showed he could lead a team to a championship and was on track to repeat. Obviously at the time no one knew that, after getting hurt in '78, he'd never be the same; but in hindsight it really is intriguing and strange. I think he's easily most compelling "what if?" player in NBA history.