1982 Finals: Did Magic really deserve the FMVP?

[oolalaa]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/11-lakers-1982-nba-championship-ring.jpg

Just some quick notes I did whilst watching each game, and a couple of thoughts....



Game 1
- The 11 point Philly first half lead was owed to offensive rebounding and Darryl Dawkins scoring at will on Kareem. Their fast break was rolling too.
- Inept 3rd Q from Philly on offensive end. Settling for jumpers, found it hard to get into paint. Spending too long on each posession.
- Toney tweaked left knee near start of 3rd. Played limited mins in 2nd half.
- McAdoo scored 6 quick points to open the 4th Q as L.A extended lead to 15. Kareem was warming the bench during the run.
- Toney came in with 4 mins left, Scored 10 points (Inc two 3s), made L.A. sweat.
- Nixon made several nice over the top passes. He was directing/leading most of the fast breaks too.
- Almost every one of Wilkes points were assisted (Mostly by Nixon).
- Magic was on the periphery the entire game. Was given crunch time ball handling duties though.
- The 9th consecutive post season win for L.A. A record at the time.

Lakers win 124-117. Player of the game - Nixon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqzkovq-wuY
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198205270PHI.html

http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/img/lakers/bio_photos/norm_nixon.jpg




Game 2
- Dr J with 8 points from off rebs in 1st half.
- Kareem with 4 blocks.
- Very similar to 1st half of gm 1. Rebounding the reason for 10 point Philly lead.
- Much the same in 3rd. Toney was knocking down jumpers (10 points). L.A started using their trap - was reasonably effective (Forced couple steals).
- Magic had only 6 of his 11 rebounds thru 3 Qs.
- Magic's boarding/fast break playmaking in the 4th came a little too late. Once again not involved heavily thru most of game.
- Bantom and Richardson were good off the bench for Philly. For the 2nd consecutive game L.A only used 7 players.

Sixers win 110-94. Player of the game - Erving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk3VTaDajkQ
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198205300PHI.html

http://foullineextended.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/dr-j-kareem.gif




Game 3
- Russell with the best comment of the series - "Well, we know he's not superman now". Referring to Rambis getting a cut on his face and bleeding.
- Philly got into early team foul trouble. Gifted L.A several points from the line in the 1st Q.
- Kareem sat with foul trouble near end of 1st.
- Lakers then ripped game open to 20 point lead.
- Too many T/Os from Philly.
- Magic at the hub of that super hot 1st Q for L.A. 3/4 sexy passes! 9 pts too.
- Dumb tech on Dr J for holding on to rim to stop himself from crashing into stands.
- Riley switched Wilkes on to Toney for the game.
- Toney scored 6 consecutive field goals in 2nd to single-handily bring Philly back to 9 pt deficit before Cooper hit a 3 at halftime buzzer. GTFO Michal Cooper - http://youtu.be/2zA2vGqdVig?t=51m25s
- Scored 20 pts in 1st half.
- 3 times the 'cooperloop' was attempted. 3 times it failed miserably. Bad passes by Nixon twice and Magic once.
- L.A up 60-48 at half. Huge discrepancy in bench scoring mostly because of McAdoo's 14 pts.
- Magic accidently clocked in the face. Was lying almost motionless on the floor for a good couple of minutes near start of 3rd.
- He remained in the game after a timeout. Proceeded to be a key cog in the spurt that would solidify the game for the Lakers. Toney wasn't scoring during the run.
- Nixon only scored 8 of his 29 pts in 1st half. 17 of his points came after those two big runs. A classic case of stats being mis-leading.
- Toney with the 1st ever 4 point play in Finals history.

Lakers win 129-108. Player of the game - Magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zA2vGqdVig
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206010LAL.html

http://fanidotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/magic-johnson_1982.jpg




Game 4
- Philly not fast breaking in 1st half. Letting L.A set their D. Way too many turnovers. Toney single-handily kept it 'close'. Creating his own shot/swishing middy jumpers.
- Magic heaved a half court shot with 7 secs to go in half. Mis-read clock.
- 15 pt L.A lead at half.
- Kareem has been much more of a paint presence thru 3Q. Philly struggling to penetrate. He's been routinely doubled too - finding open man.
- Toney with some nice passes to open 3rd.
- Philly scored at will in paint with Kareem on bench to start 4th and cut deficit to 9. Bantom with 6 quick pts.
- Toney non-existent mid-way thru 3rd to mid-way thru 4th.
- Dr J completely uninvolved thru most of the game until it was too late.
- Dr J quote relayed by Russell - "I'd like to be able to win without bragging and lose without crying".
- 4 of Magic's pts came in garbage time.

Lakers win 111-101. Player of the game - Kareem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJpuKmBlxww
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206030LAL.html

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1204/nba-classic-kareem-abdul-jabbar/images/1982.7601Final.jpg




Game 5
- Rambis got 4 of his 6 boards in about 5 seconds :oldlol:
- Too many T/Os in 1st half for Magic.
- Kareem in foul trouble.
- Dr J with a terrible shooting 1st half. Toney's 19 pts and multiple assists kept it close.
- Tied at 54 at halftime.
- 91-81 Philly going into 4th.
- A great all-around, fundamental, efficient game from Toney. When doubled found open man, when not took man off dribble, when open buried jumper.

Philly win 135-102. Player of the game - Toney.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry24vUErcks
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206060PHI.html

http://otismalibu.webs.com/toney.jpg




Game 6
- Kareem suffering from migranes before the game. Missed practice. Kareem says that they've 'passed' and should be okay for the game.
- Finally! Magic's glorious pinpoint playmaking is unleashed! 3 'thread the needle' passes into the paint for guaranteed buckets in 1st Q. L.A off to hot start.
- Clark Kent with the 2 handed facial on Dawkins! (http://youtu.be/_yRexTZ0gxg?t=3m7s)
- McAdoo & Wilkes swishing middy jumpers, but Magic ran the show.
- 9 pt halftime lead.
- Toney has been routinely doubled so far.
- McAdoo and Bantam scuffle near end of 3rd, have to be broken up.
- Magic got badly stolen by Cheeks when backing him down up the court with around 6 mins left. Cheeks layup cut Philly deficit to 7.
- Dawkins fouls out with 6 mins left.
- Big 3 point play by Kareem extends lead to 6 with 3 mins left. Seemed to take air out of Philly comeback.
- The clock was running down during a timeout!!! And it wasn't corrected!!! Home perks :oldlol:
- Toney 9 pts (4/7) in 4th but didn't score in last 4 mins.
- The ball was in Magic's hands most of the game. Nixon took a back seat.

Lakers win 114-104. Player of the game - Magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dti1sv0KXyk
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206080LAL.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P51GpXGHf4M/TlOIrzD0r8I/AAAAAAAABqs/Og_JUv2BChM/s1600/Magic.jpg

[oolalaa]

Fast breaks galore. Both teams were getting into the opposing paint at will. Which ever team won the rebounding battle won the game (Except game 5). Defense was an after thought. L.A employed their half court trap sparingly but with reasonable success. Both were incredibly similar teams. McAdoo was huge off the bench for L.A.

Magic was a very fundemental/good passer throughout the series, but the transcendent playmaking he was known for wasn't prevalent in every game, with the exception of games 3 and 6. There was a little too much dumping it off to the nearest man and running towards the paint. He was obviously splitting fast break/ball handling duties with Nixon. He didn't always stand out. He was on the periphery for huge chunks of the series. He floated through the first 2 games. He was comprehensively outplayed by teammate Nixon in game 1, and his contributions came too late in game 2 (5 of his 11 boards and a couple of his assists came in the 4th when Philly already had a double digit lead, for instance).

Things improved in games 3 and 4 - much more involved. He was at the hub of the Lakers first half demolishing of Philly in game 3, but Kareem's defensive impact in game 4 once again overshadowed him. He then completely failed to show up in the potentially series clinching game 5 with Kareem in foul trouble, as Toney produced the best game of anyone in the series. Finally the Magic we all know and love showed up in game 6. Despite only taking 3 shots, he controlled the tempo, had half a dozen 'thread the needle' passes for guaranteed buckets, and grabbed 13 boards too.

He was the leading rebounder on both teams throughout the series. Considering the main reason for the Lakers series win was the rebounding discrepancy, this shouldn't be ignored. And, of course, we all know that Magic's competitiveness and drive was infectious. However, I'm not sure he did enough to deserve his FMVP.

Kareem? He was pretty consistently double teamed throughout. Most of his post moves towards the basket resulted in a Philly sagging off his man at the top of the key and swiping at the ball or clogging the paint. He routinely made them pay with his passing.

However, outside of game 4 (11 boards, 3 blks and good transition D), his impact in the paint was sorely lacking. He was basically getting completely abused on the boards. 5 players outrebounded him in game one, 6 in game two, 4 in game three, and 8 in game five. He was blocking shots (3 per game), but wasn't stopping the "great" Darryl Dawkins, who lit him up in the 1st half of game 1, outrebounded him 13-6 in game 2, lit him up again through the whole of game 5, and was 4/5 before he fouled out in game 6.

In game 3 he got into foul trouble early on, sat down with around 2 mins to go in the 1st quarter, and the Lakers ripped open a 20 point game winning lead. In game 5 he scored just 6 points, foul trouble again.

No, this wasn't Kareem's series.

The doctor? You could count the number of jumpers Erving made throughout the series on 1 hand. Essentially, all of his points came from fast breaks and offensive rebounding. He was very good in the first 2 games. His 8 points from offensive rebounds in the 1st half of game 1 gave Philly the lead that they would cling to for the rest of the game, but, despite what the numbers may indicate, he played a sub-par, peripheral role for the remainder of the series, showing up too late to the party, and not invloved when it mattered.

Andrew Toney! Deadly from mid-range. He was consistently and unstoppably creating his own shot (Guarded by Magic, Wilkes, Nixon and Scott fairly evenly at different points). Draining 15 footers when open, too. His passing was also great. A bonus considering he was by far the most double teamed Philly. Few turnovers. Per game, he averaged just 0.2 less assists than Magic, and did it in less minutes.

If his teammates had remembered to tie their shoelaces in game 3 then his 36 points in 36 minutes might have gotten more respect. He was the only reason Philly weren't down by 30 points at half time. And, in fact, his 6 field goals in a row in the 2nd Q cut the deficit to just 9 points before Cooper nailed the Lakers only 3 of the entire series at the halftime buzzer (It was one of those games for L.A). He was phenomenal in the must-win game 5, as well. 31 points, 8 assists, 13/18 from the floor. Close to flawless basketball. Not bad in games 4 (29/11) and 6 (29/6), either. If Dr J was involved through the first 3 quarters of game 3 then the outcome of the series might have been a lot different. And what about game 1? Perhaps the turning point of the entire series. It's no surprise that Toney hurting his knee at the start of the 3rd quarter coincided with Philly's extreme inability to break L.A down in the half court. The Sixers cudda, wudda, shudda been up 2-0.

Perhaps It's crazy to give it to a member of the losing team. Toney was no Michael Jordan, after all. I just can't shake the fact that Magic was surprisingly inconsequential for 3 whole games. That his back court mate Nixon was leading the majority of the fast breaks (Magic very often grabbed a rebound and dumped it off to Nixon before getting over half court). And that Toney was by far the most effective/impactful offensive force across the whole series. Like the doctor, you can count the number of jumpers Magic attempted on one hand.

I honestly don't know. It's pretty close for me. My eyes tell me Andrew Toney, but it's impossible to ignore perhaps the main reason for the Lakers winning: rebounding, no one rebounded more than Magic throughout the series. What I do know is that Magic was one of the least impressive FMVPs in NBA history.

[kennethgriffin]

i always said norm nixon is a hall of famer and was the real leader of the lakers and main PG early in magics career

he should have his jersey retired and be in the hall for sure


Nixon
game 1 = 24 points / 10 assists
game 2 = 6 points / 10 assists
game 3 = 29 points / 6 assists
game 4 = 11 points / 14 assists
game 5 = 20 points / 13 assists
game 6 = 16 points / 7 assists

finals average = 18 ppg / 10 apg


magic
game 1 = 10 points / 9 assists
game 2 = 18 points / 7 assists
game 3 = 22 points / 8 assists
game 4 = 24 points / 7 assists
game 5 = 10 points / 4 assists
game 6 = 13 points / 13 assists

finals average = 16ppg / 8 apg



Norm Nixon = NBA FINALS MVP

[juju151111]

i always said norm nixon is a hall of famer and was the real leader of the lakers and main PG early in magics career

he should have his jersey retired and be in the hall for sure


Nixon
game 1 = 24 points / 10 assists
game 2 = 6 points / 10 assists
game 3 = 29 points / 6 assists
game 4 = 11 points / 14 assists
game 5 = 20 points / 13 assists
game 6 = 16 points / 7 assists

finals average = 18 ppg / 10 apg


magic
game 1 = 10 points / 9 assists
game 2 = 18 points / 7 assists
game 3 = 22 points / 8 assists
game 4 = 24 points / 7 assists
game 5 = 10 points / 4 assists
game 6 = 13 points / 13 assists

finals average = 16ppg / 8 apg



Norm Nixon = NBA FINALS MVP
:coleman:
Post Magics rebounding

[kennethgriffin]

:coleman:
Post Magics rebounding


lmfao magic is 6-9, nixon is 6-2


magic should rebound more


sick and tired of people saying a bigger guy catching more balls falling in their lap than a smaller guy is some kind of huge accomplishment...

more points and assists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more rebounds

and ontop of that... magic sucked at defense


not saying magic isnt still a top 5 player all time for me... but common... nixon was fmvp

[DatAsh]

lmfao magic is 6-9, nixon is 6-2


That shouldn't matter.

I suppose we regard Shaq's ppg and efficiency less because he's 7'1"?

It's not like we're setting handicaps when judging these players.

[oolalaa]

i always said norm nixon is a hall of famer and was the real leader of the lakers and main PG early in magics career

he should have his jersey retired and be in the hall for sure


Nixon
game 1 = 24 points / 10 assists
game 2 = 6 points / 10 assists
game 3 = 29 points / 6 assists
game 4 = 11 points / 14 assists
game 5 = 20 points / 13 assists
game 6 = 16 points / 7 assists

finals average = 18 ppg / 10 apg


magic
game 1 = 10 points / 9 assists
game 2 = 18 points / 7 assists
game 3 = 22 points / 8 assists
game 4 = 24 points / 7 assists
game 5 = 10 points / 4 assists
game 6 = 13 points / 13 assists

finals average = 16ppg / 8 apg



Norm Nixon = NBA FINALS MVP


:oldlol: well, he certainly wasn't the 'leader' of the Lakers. Although he was splitting ball handling duties with Magic, he didn't have anwhere near the impact that Magic did off the court.

He did have 2 great games, though. He was the main reason for the Laker comeback in game 1 (Apart form Philly's woeful shooting in the 3rd). Relentlessly attacking on the fast break, driving in to the teeth of the defense for a layup on more than one occasion, and usually making the correct pass. Game 3, from what I can tell by the newspaper reports, he wasn't at the center of the first half explosion by L.A that effectively won the game for the Lakers. He only had 8 points in the first half. So his 29 points aren't as good as they look on paper.

His series was marred by inconsistent shooting. He was a bit of a gunner. His poor shooting didn't seem to deter him. 3/14 in game 2, 4/18 in game 4. Several times he ran up the court and fired off a quick shot with out so much as looking at his teammates. His playmaking was on point the whole series - it arguably had a greater impact than Magic's playmaking did. On the whole, the ball seemed to be in his hands a little more. But the thing that conclusively clinches Magic >>> Nixon was their rebounding. Magic grabbed 7 more boards than Norm every single game.

I see no case for Nixon.

[kennethgriffin]

:oldlol: well, he certainly wasn't the 'leader' of the Lakers. Although he was splitting ball handling duties with Magic, he didn't have anwhere near the impact that Magic did off the court.

He did have 2 great games, though. He was the main reason for the Laker comeback in game 1 (Apart form Philly's woeful shooting in the 3rd). Relentlessly attacking on the fast break, driving in to the teeth of the defense for a layup on more than one occasion, and usually making the correct pass. Game 3, from what I can tell by the newspaper reports, he wasn't at the center of the first half explosion by L.A that effectively won the game for the Lakers. He only had 8 points in the first half. So his 29 points aren't as good as they look on paper.

His series was marred by inconsistent shooting. He was a bit of a gunner. His poor shooting didn't seem to deter him. 3/14 in game 2, 4/18 in game 4. Several times he ran up the court and fired off a quick shot with out so much as looking at his teammates. His playmaking was on point the whole series - it arguably had a greater impact than Magic's playmaking did. On the whole, the ball seemed to be in his hands a little more. But the thing that conclusively clinches Magic >>> Nixon was their rebounding. Magic grabbed 7 more boards than Norm every single game.

I see no case for Nixon.

anywhere near?



18ppg to 16ppg

and 10apg to 8apg


you could atleast argue nixon had more of an impact on scoring and passing. maybe he didnt. but you could argue it

its arguable magic had more influence on the other teams game plan. but he didnt outperform nixon

and finals mvp is about performance

[oolalaa]

lmfao magic is 6-9, nixon is 6-2


magic should rebound more


sick and tired of people saying a bigger guy catching more balls falling in their lap than a smaller guy is some kind of huge accomplishment...

more points and assists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more rebounds

and ontop of that... magic sucked at defense


not saying magic isnt still a top 5 player all time for me... but common... nixon was fmvp

The difference in their defense was negligible. Because there were so many fast breaks, and shots were taken relatively quickly in the half court, defense didn't play a big role. No one stood out defensively. Not even Bobby Jones. It was a very high scoring series.

Magic had more steals than Norm (2.5 to 1.7). That's worth noting.

[oolalaa]

anywhere near?



18ppg to 16ppg

and 10apg to 8apg


you could atleast argue nixon had more of an impact on scoring and passing. maybe he didnt. but you could argue it

its arguable magic had more influence on the other teams game plan. but he didnt outperform nixon

and finals mvp is about performance

Magic's competitiveness and leadership was legendary. He wasn't at his '87-'91 levels in 1982 (particuarly his leadership) but he still motivated those around him. From day one in the league actually.

And rebounding played a BIG role in the series. Magic destroyed Nixon on the glass.

[Sarcastic]

lmfao magic is 6-9, nixon is 6-2


magic should rebound more


sick and tired of people saying a bigger guy catching more balls falling in their lap than a smaller guy is some kind of huge accomplishment...

more points and assists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more rebounds

and ontop of that... magic sucked at defense


not saying magic isnt still a top 5 player all time for me... but common... nixon was fmvp


Using that logic, then Magic shouldn't have all those assists.

Magic had a near triple double almost every game. He was putting 7-8 + rebounds and assists every game.

[jlip]

Looking a the finals stats (http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1982.htm#Championship) no one from either team was even within 2 rebounds per game of Magic. The closest was Dr. J who, at 8.2rpg, was 2.6rpg away.

[Legends66NBA7]

Interesting case, but I think Magic's overall game gets him the Finals MVP. Although, yes, you can make the case for Norm, Wilkes, or Kareem, but I think they got it right this time.

1980 Finals MVP should have gone to Kareem and Kareem was still the leader for the 1980 and 1982 championship teams.

[SpecialQue]

I loved this series so much. Probably the most entertaining basketball I've ever seen.

[crisoner]

Nice break down...

Did anybody post the boards?

[T-Low]

Magic did a hell of a job of getting to the line. But the good part is, is that he actually hit those shots. And when they counted.

[guy]

That shouldn't matter.

I suppose we regard Shaq's ppg and efficiency less because he's 7'1"?

It's not like we're setting handicaps when judging these players.

This. Such a dumb statement. A 6'9 player is more likely then a 6'2 player to make it to the NBA for a reason.

[oolalaa]

Interesting case, but I think Magic's overall game gets him the Finals MVP. Although, yes, you can make the case for Norm, Wilkes, or Kareem, but I think they got it right this time.

1980 Finals MVP should have gone to Kareem and Kareem was still the leader for the 1980 and 1982 championship teams.

Wilkes?? No one could possibly come away from watching that series thinking Wilkes has a case. I don't really see a case for Nixon or Kareem, either. Only Magic or Toney.

[oolalaa]

Nice break down...

Did anybody post the boards?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1982_finals.html

[pauk]

Magic was never a PG (didnt start PG) until Norm Nixon was gone somewhere 1983... he was a SF/SG, point-forwarding a la Lebron James...

[kurt_rambis]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1982_finals.html
that's gotta be the most balanced scoring in finals history. all 5 starters averaged between 16-20 points, crazy

it's pretty interesting that magic took 42 fewer shots yet only had 9 fewer points than nixon for the entire series

[oolalaa]

that's gotta be the most balanced scoring in finals history. all 5 starters averaged between 16-20 points, crazy

it's pretty interesting that magic took 42 fewer shots yet only had 9 fewer points than nixon for the entire series

Yeh, their fast break was insanely good. Magic or Nixon running it, Wilkes, Cooper or McAdoo flying down the wing. Pretty much unstoppable. Has to be the best fast breaking team of all time. The Sixers were friggin good as well though. The rebounding difference hurt them. Less rebounds = less chances for getting out on the break :oldlol: It's pretty simple really.

Nixon was gunning. Taking some poor shots. He certainly made up for it with his playmaking though.

[Da_Realist]

Game 3. Note: Did not watch. Can't find the game anywhere :mad:
- Magic 9 pts in 1st Q.
- Kareem sat with foul trouble near end of 1st.
- Lakers then ripped game open to 20 point lead.
- L.A up 60-48 at half.
- Nixon only scored 8 of his 29 pts in 1st half (8/10 in 2nd half). He scored 9 of L.As 12 pts early in the 4th that induced Philly to clear the benches.
- *educated guess work*: Nixon scored 5 points in garbage time.
- Toney 20 pts in 1st half.
- Scored 6 consecutive field goals in 2nd to single-handily bring Philly back to 9 pt deficit before Cooper hit a 3 at halftime buzzer.
- Had a 4 point play. The 1st in Finals history.
- Toney 5/6 in 3rd.
- Riley switched Wilkes on to Toney for the game.
- All of McAdoo's pts were in 1st half.

Lakers win 129-108. Player of the game - Toney.

I can upload Game 3 tonight. I'll post it here in this thread.

[oolalaa]

I can upload Game 3 tonight. I'll post it here in this thread.

:banana: :cheers:

Thanks dude. I gave Toney the player of the game, but I think Magic and Nixon both have strong cases. It'll be interesting to see if I change my mind.

[che guevara]

Nixon was gunning. Taking some poor shots. He certainly made up for it with his playmaking though.
Magic was pretty clearly better than Nixon for this reason, and the fact that Magic was his team's leading rebounder. Unless Kareem was doing something unbelievable defensively, it's pretty clear that Magic was the MVP for that series. Kareem was still the better player overall in '82, though.

[oolalaa]

Magic was pretty clearly better than Nixon for this reason, and the fact that Magic was his team's leading rebounder. Unless Kareem was doing something unbelievable defensively, it's pretty clear that Magic was the MVP for that series. Kareem was still the better player overall in '82, though.

Outside of game 4, Kareem most definitely wasn't. He was getting scored on with ease in the post (Mostly by Dawkins), and was pretty much abused on the boards.

Only Andrew Toney has a case over Magic for FMVP.

[Whoah10115]

Well, this and the 1980 FMVP (which I still give to Magic, on the simple account that one game in the Finals is a huge difference, and that it's one of the all-time performances) more than make up for Magic not getting it in 85 and 88. The 85 was a bit of a shoutout to Kareem, and 88 makes little sense. I think it's pretty crazy.

[oolalaa]

Just to be clear, I'm leaning towards this guy for FMVP:

http://otismalibu.webs.com/toney.jpg

Anyone else agree?

[necya]

I loved this series so much. Probably the most entertaining basketball I've ever seen.

yeah i think this great series deserve more talking rather than who was the reael mvp. so many good players...

[Hands of Iron]

That shouldn't matter.

I suppose we regard Shaq's ppg and efficiency less because he's 7'1"?

It's not like we're setting handicaps when judging these players.

It's the absolute worst type of stipulation ever.

[Da_Realist]

1982 NBA Finals PHI LAL Game 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zA2vGqdVig)

[oolalaa]

I like how the only 'rep' I get in this thread is from someone who negged me and stated "Way to leave out all of Magic's contributions".

I did a breakdown and gave my honest assesment. ISH for the win.


1982 NBA Finals PHI LAL Game 3

Thanks. I'll watch it soon.

[oolalaa]

Update:

Just watched game 3....
- Russell with the best comment of the series - "Well, we know he's not superman now". Referring to Rambis getting a cut on his face and bleeding.
- Philly got into early team foul trouble. Gifted L.A several points from the line in the 1st Q.
- Kareem sat with foul trouble near end of 1st.
- Lakers then ripped game open to 20 point lead.
- Too many T/Os from Philly.
- Magic at the hub of that super hot 1st Q for L.A. 3/4 sexy passes! 9 pts too.
- Dumb tech on Dr J for holding on to rim to stop himself from crashing into stands.
- Riley switched Wilkes on to Toney for the game.
- Toney scored 6 consecutive field goals in 2nd to single-handily bring Philly back to 9 pt deficit before Cooper hit a 3 at halftime buzzer. GTFO Michal Cooper - http://youtu.be/2zA2vGqdVig?t=51m25s
- Scored 20 pts in 1st half.
- 3 times the 'cooperloop' was attempted. 3 times it failed miserably. Bad passes by Nixon twice and Magic once.
- L.A up 60-48 at half. Huge discrepancy in bench scoring mostly because of McAdoo's 14 pts.
- Magic accidently clocked in the face. Was lying almost motionless on the floor for a good couple of minutes near start of 3rd.
- He remained in the game after a timeout. Proceeded to be a key cog in the spurt that would solidify the game for the Lakers. Toney wasn't scoring during the run.
- Nixon only scored 8 of his 29 pts in 1st half. 17 of his points came after those two big runs. A classic case of stats being mis-leading.

Lakers win 129-108. Player of the game - Magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zA2vGqdVig
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198206010LAL.html


Damn it. The newspapers I read didn't feel like mentioning that Magic's awesome playmaking was the main reason for the 1st and 3rd quarter runs that won the game for the Lakers. I'll have to amend my "The transcendent playmaking that Magic was known for wasn't really there (Except for game 6)" comment to "The transcendent playmaking that Magic was known for wasn't really there (Except for games 3 & 6)". Toney was as good as advertised in the 1st half, but his points came too late in the 2nd half. Had absolutely no help, though.

My feelings have been altered very slightly. Magic may have been inconsequential in 3 games, but he was at the very heart of 2 wins (Was pretty darn good in game 4, too). He outplayed Toney in game 3. I'm now leaning towards Magic. Stil very close, though.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I thought that watching the series, Kareem's impact was probably greater. He had a low series for him statistically, but his impact was more noticeable to me. One thing that boosted Kareem's value compared to Magic's from '80-'83 was simply that the Lakers did have another player in Norm Nixon who could give them something similar to what Magic did, while they did not have a player who give them anything near what Kareem did. Granted, Magic was already better than Nixon(who was very underrated, though). Magic had the added dimension of being such a great rebounder and being able to go coast to coast and finish at 6'8". He was also a more gifted passer than Nixon. Norm was a fine passer, but Magic was always just gifted in that regard beyond basically anyone who has played the game.

But Nixon gave you the scoring and playmaking. They split the ball-handling duties, and Nixon was arguably the better scorer at this point because he had that pull up jumper, while Magic didn't have a jump shot or outside/mid-range shot yet. He didn't start showing one until the '83-'84 season, and because he didn't have that great post game yet, he was a limited half court player, this was one reason Kareem was clearly the better player to me their first 4 years together.

If you watch those Laker games, really until Magic took over the team in '86-'87 when Worthy was also coming into his own, Kareem was the only Laker prior to that who would consistently draw double teams. They relied on him extremely heavily in their half court offense, especially when they needed a key basket. This is a rarity for a center, but Kareem was the Lakers go to guy in general, including those type of shots. He was also a fine passer himself, one of the best at his position, so in addition to the double teams he drew and probably being the best scorer in the league at that point rivaled by perhaps only Moses by '82, maybe a perimeter guy like Gervin, but he doesn't look quite as unstoppable to me as Kareem. Anyway, the point is I'd probably take Kareem's offensive game over Magic's at this point, certainly prior to '82, but probably even in '82 and '83.

But at the defensive end, Magic was never anything special, pretty good help defender, but below average as far as man defense, while Kareem was a 7'3" shot blocker, a major presence in the paint as one of the league's top shot blockers so this was another thing that made him more valuable to Magic at this point.

By '82, it seems that people look at Magic's well-rounded statline virtually averaging a triple double and assume he was the better player, but really breaking down their games and impact, there's no question to me that I'd take Kareem in '82 and '83, before then it was obviously Kareem without any argument in '80 and '81 when I think Kareem was still the best in the league. Then I think Kareem and Magic were very debatable starting in '84, I'd call those the 1.A/1.B years until Magic took over as first option in '87.

Back to the series in question, Kareem's normal impact drawing double teams and blocking shots seemed to have a real impact on the series to the point that he may very well have deserved this finals MVP despite his numbers. He certainly deserved the one in '80, but maybe this one too and it's overlooked.

[EllEffEll]

I was at the first two finals games in both 1980 and 1982. Those were some great battles. Went to a lot of Laker games back then, and of course followed them closely.

I saw it like this; Kareem was definitely the go-to guy when the game was on the line, and Magic was the stick that stirred everyone's drink. They are both icons of the sport.

Wilkes and Nixon could score points when matchups went their way. Nevertheless, I lean toward Magic being FMVP both times, but it's not a landslide (vs. Kareem) by any stretch.

I am a little perplexed by the OP's analysis regarding the lack of defense being proof that defense was lacking. Respectfully I feel quite the opposite, as IMHO, defense is what spurs the fast break.

[TheBigVeto]

**** no.