View Full Version : Is there a worse a Finals performance than Lebron 2011?
noosaman
09-17-2012, 06:21 PM
I'm thinking back on this and cannot think of any star having a worse series. Maybe Kobe in 2004?
fpliii
09-17-2012, 06:23 PM
not sure
arguably the 6th most impactful player that series
Finals:
Dirk: 26.0/9.7/2.0/0.7/0.7 with 2.8 t/o on 53.7 TS% (.416 .368 .978)
Terry: 18.0/2.0/3.2/1.3/0.0 with 1.3 t/o on 60.5 TS% (.494 .393 .750)
Chandler: 9.7/8.8/0.7/1.2/1.2 with 0.5 t/o on 62.9 TS% (.594 --- .625)
Wade: 26.5/7.0/5.2/1.5/1.5 with 2.5 t/o on 61.4 TS% (.546 .304 .694)
Bosh: 18.5/7.3/1.0/0.3/0.5 with 2.2 t/o on 49.6 TS% (.413 .000 .778)
LeBron: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with 2.8 t/o on 54.1 TS% (.478 .321 .600)
4th quarters:
Dirk: 62/19/4/3/0 with 7 t/o on 68.0 TS% (18-35 2-6 24-24)
Terry: 30/3/5/3/0 with 3 t/o on 49.3 TS% (10-26 2-9 8-10)
Chandler: 8/17/1/2/2 with 1 t/o on 51.5 TS% (3-6 0-0 2-4)
Wade: 44/11/6/2/4 with 5 t/o on 65.0 TS% (16-29 4-12 8-11)
Bosh: 23/8/1/0/0 with 5 t/o on 46.5 TS% (7-19 0-1 9-13)
LeBron: 18/11/11/3/1 with 7 t/o on 40.3 TS% (7-21 1-9 3-3)
chips93
09-17-2012, 06:24 PM
lebron was 4th after dirk, wade, and chandler in the 2011 finals imo
Bandito
09-17-2012, 06:24 PM
I'm thinking back on this and cannot think of any star having a worse series. Maybe Kobe in 2004?
Kove wasn't not even half as bad. Kobe just sucked but Lebron had the most epic choke job of all time. At least I believe he did
noosaman
09-17-2012, 06:28 PM
lebron was 4th after dirk, wade, and chandler in the 2011 finals imo
Marion outplayed him on both ends.
crisoner
09-17-2012, 06:36 PM
Yaaay another agenda topic!!!!
CelticBaller
09-17-2012, 06:38 PM
LeBron in 07?
noosaman
09-17-2012, 06:38 PM
Yaaay another agenda topic!!!!
I must have a lot of agendas!
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
Young X
09-17-2012, 06:41 PM
His 2011 Finals>2007 Finals
chips93
09-17-2012, 06:44 PM
Marion outplayed him on both ends.
marion scored 13ppg, and had just over 2 apg, and that is better than bron's 18ppg and 7 apg!?
:biggums:
lilgodfather1
09-17-2012, 06:45 PM
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
Good thing Larry had a good team...
As far as Kobe goes, 2004 is a good example, though 2000 Finals was his worst luck:
15.6 ppg @ 36% FG
4.4 rpg
4.6 apg
A truly great team that can back you up in those situations does wonders...
Good thing Larry had a good team...
Yea Cedric Maxwell stepped up, won the FMVP.
Money 23
09-17-2012, 06:51 PM
Good thing Larry had a good team...
LeBron didn't? LOL ... child please. You're one of those most pathetic posters on these boards in recent memory.
He was on Miami because in less than year he knew they would be in the Finals. Had a teammate who produced all regular and post season as well as him.
Not a good team my ass ... :oldlol:
The excuses the LeBron homers make on this board (pauk, lilgodfather1, madmax, kingwillball) have made them arguably worse than Kobe stans and their warped view on reality. At least Kobe stans flat out say he played poorly in 2004, and performed under expectation in 2008.
The LeBron stans, like himself pre 2011 - 2012 ... no accountability. He played piss poor. Got outplayed and torched by 6th man Jason Terry. Didn't have team defense that could zone up on one guy the way they did in the previous series v.s. the MVP.
Wade carried them in dominating fashion on both ends of the floor until he got the hip flexor in the Finals. LeBron simply didn't step up. Admit it. It's foolish for you not to ...
His lack of game breaking performance is why he got embarrassed when Wade chewed him out in front of a packed stadium and millions of viewers on television. And LeBron pouted like a stubborn child.
Wade would've easily won MVP of the Finals for his dominating performance, which would SON Cedrix Maxwell's performance in comparison, if LeBron even managed to average 20 ppg and maybe 5 - 8 ppg in the 4th quarter. But he went into casper, nail biting mode.
The Heat carried LeBron in the 2011 Finals. They just needed him to be slightly better than half way what he was the rest of the season, and every other playoff series.
Back to the point, no ... there isn't a worse performance from a mega star of all-time like the Finals LeBron turned in that season.
pauk and others want to argue LeBron being better than Bird, a top five talent of all-time, etc. Then why given those abilities and expectations is his performance excused? If anything, it should be held under harsher light.
lilgodfather1
09-17-2012, 06:56 PM
LeBron didn't? LOL ... child please. You're one of those most pathetic posters on these boards in recent memory.
He was on Miami because in less than year he knew they would be in the Finals. Had a teammate who produced all regular and post season as well as him.
Not a good team my ass ... :oldlol:
The excuses the LeBron homers make on this board (pauk, lilgodfather1, madmax, kingwillball) have made them arguably worse than Kobe stans and their warped view on reality. At least Kobe stans flat out say he played poorly in 2004, and performed under expectation in 2008.
The LeBron stans, like himself pre 2011 - 2012 ... no accountability. He played piss poor. Got outplayed and torched by 6th man Jason Terry. Didn't have team defense that could zone up on one guy the way they did in the previous series v.s. the MVP.
Wade carried them in dominating fashion on both ends of the floor until he got the hip flexor in the Finals. LeBron simply didn't step up. Admit it. It's foolish for you not to ...
His lack of game breaking performance is why he got embarrassed when Wade chewed him out in front of a packed stadium and millions of viewers on television. And LeBron pouted like a stubborn child.
Wade would've easily won MVP of the Finals for his dominating performance, which would SON Cedrix Maxwell's performance in comparison, if LeBron even managed to average 20 ppg and maybe 5 - 8 ppg in the 4th quarter. But he went into casper, nail biting mode.
The Heat carried LeBron in the 2011 Finals. They just needed him to be slightly better than half way what he was the rest of the season, and every other playoff series.
Back to the point, no ... there isn't a worse performance from a mega star of all-time like the Finals LeBron turned in that season.
pauk and others want to argue LeBron being better than Bird, a top five talent of all-time, etc. Then why given those abilities and expectations is his performance excused? If anything, it should be held under harsher light.
I never even mentioned LeBron.
LeBron didn't? LOL ... child please. You're one of those most pathetic posters on these boards in recent memory.
He was on Miami because in less than year he knew they would be in the Finals. Had a teammate who produced all regular and post season as well as him.
Not a good team my ass ... :oldlol:
The excuses the LeBron homers make on this board (pauk, lilgodfather1, madmax, kingwillball) have made them arguably worse than Kobe stans and their warped view on reality. At least Kobe stans flat out say he played poorly in 2004, and performed under expectation in 2008.
The LeBron stans, like himself pre 2011 - 2012 ... no accountability. He played piss poor. Got outplayed and torched by 6th man Jason Terry. Didn't have team defense that could zone up on one guy the way they did in the previous series v.s. the MVP.
Wade carried them in dominating fashion on both ends of the floor until he got the hip flexor in the Finals. LeBron simply didn't step up. Admit it. It's foolish for you not to ...
His lack of game breaking performance is why he got embarrassed when Wade chewed him out in front of a packed stadium and millions of viewers on television. And LeBron pouted like a stubborn child.
Wade would've easily won MVP of the Finals for his dominating performance, which would SON Cedrix Maxwell's performance in comparison, if LeBron even managed to average 20 ppg and maybe 5 - 8 ppg in the 4th quarter. But he went into casper, nail biting mode.
The Heat carried LeBron in the 2011 Finals. They just needed him to be slightly better than half way what he was the rest of the season, and every other playoff series.
There is a difference between a great team and a team that is great to the required limit in order to prevail.... For Heat it wasnt enough... there was no carrying from anybody in the clutch, Wade produced better but even he struggled in the clutch, many also forget his Game 5 & Game 6, he was absolutely horrible especially there...... they won 2 games but those others none could close out the games... meanwhile Dirk was not gona be denied it seemed, he played like a completely different player, i have NEVER seen that Dirk in my life and he quickly got back to his normal self the next season.....
As far as Lebron goes, no excuse... he played bad... there is some reasons to that but whatever...
Money 23
09-17-2012, 06:58 PM
I never even mentioned LeBron.
You said "good thing Larry had a good team" ... as if to say LeBron didn't ...
:oldlol:
Once again LeBron's failure is pawned off to the rest of his mates? Wait didn't you do that in Cleveland, when that argument was ACTUALLY legitimate. But on the Heat? If one makes that excuse their opinion on anything is no longer valid.
TheBigVeto
09-17-2012, 06:59 PM
I'm thinking back on this and cannot think of any star having a worse series. Maybe Kobe in 2004?
You just answered your own question.
fpliii
09-17-2012, 06:59 PM
There is a difference between a great team and a team that is great to the required limit in order to prevail.... For Heat it wasnt enough... there was no carrying from anybody in the clutch, Wade produced better but even he struggled in the clutch... they won 2 games but those others none could close out the games... meanwhile Dirk was not gona be denied it seemed, he played like a completely different player, i have NEVER seen that Dirk in my life and he quickly got back to his normal self the next season.....
I posted the numbers above...Wade was actually quite good in the clutch, it's just that Dirk was better (though Wade was better overall for the series)
LamarOdom
09-17-2012, 07:01 PM
As far as Kobe goes, 2004 is a good example, though 2000 Finals was his worst luck:
15.6 ppg @ 36% FG
4.4 rpg
4.6 apg
A truly great team that can back you up in those situations does wonders...
First finals and he was 21.
Money 23
09-17-2012, 07:04 PM
For Heat it wasnt enough... there was no carrying from anybody in the clutch
WTF are you talking about fukktard? A team good enough to win or not?
The Heat lost because LeBron severely underperformed. Don't manipulate words to fit some asinine agenda.
They had Wade, Bosh, Haslem, Chalmers ... good enough to win, easily. They were up 2 games to 1 (should've been up 3) and crumbled because LeBron didn't even produce up to normal averages let alone exceed them the way an all-time talent should in his prime @ the big show, with everything on the line.
Wade was absolutely clutch. He made countless critical baskets, and evern more impressive which your LeBron induced amnesia is conveniently forgetting is all the BIG TIME block shots on centers with easy looks at the rim.
A 6'3 SG having to be an interior defensive stopper. Where was LeBron's versatility to guard all five positions then as you so readily claim he's able to do ???
:facepalm
Wade out performed LeBron in the 2nd half of game 1 ... and continued to do so for the entire rest of the series.
The Mavs didn't win purely because of Dirk. After Jason Terry took accountability and said he would play better, his play is what sparked them. Along w/ Chandler's interior defense, and JJ Barrea's constant penetration.
Terry by the way was the man LeBron was guarding. Who during game 6 IN MIAMI carried a struggling Dirk through the first three quarters by dropping bucket after step back bucket in LeBron's mug.
Get with the program Savanna James, your boy is the reason the Miami Heat aren't Back to Back champs this year.
Denial should just be a river in Egypt.
You said "good thing Larry had a good team" ... as if to say LeBron didn't ...
:oldlol:
Once again LeBron's failure is pawned off to the rest of his mates? Wait didn't you do that in Cleveland, when that argument was ACTUALLY legitimate. But on the Heat? If one makes that excuse their opinion on anything is no longer valid.
He is right... he meant that not as in Lebron not having a good team, but not having an equally good team... the required "good" to prevail....
I posted the numbers above...Wade was actually quite good in the clutch, it's just that Dirk was better (though Wade was better overall for the series)
And one could argue that if LeBron played closer to his usual standards, they would be no need for 'clutch' play from Wade. They were up by like 15 in game 2 with 6 mins a change to go for Christ sakes.
But in the end, this will be nothing more than a blip on the screen for LeBron. He more than redeemed himself.
Money 23
09-17-2012, 07:07 PM
He is right... he meant that not as in Lebron not having a good team, but not having an equally good team... the required "good" to prevail....
The Heat kept LeBron in every game. All they needed to do is have him play NORMAL capabilities.
How on earth is that not "good enough"
You're literally playing mental gymnaistics with words in order to validate the reason the Heat lost to the Mavericks not being placed only on the shoulders of the REASON they didn't win.
Which was LeBron James significantly underwhelming Finals performance.
Deuce Bigalow
09-17-2012, 07:07 PM
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
Yeah, let's forget about the 15.3 RPG and 7.0 APG
Young X
09-17-2012, 07:08 PM
Wade averaged 27/7/5 on 55%, LOL @ not having a good team. :facepalm
Easily for someone of his standards. You can argue they would've been better off if he was injured and couldn't play that series.
Money 23
09-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Wade averaged 27/7/5 on 55%, LOL @ not having a good team. :facepalm
For serious ...
Let's not mention Bosh. Or Haslem. Or the suprising shooting ability Chalmers showed in a few games that series. Very BJ Armstrong-esque.
He shot well even though LeBron played hot potatoe with the pill at the end of shot clocks tossing it to much less capable players to force up shots.
Can people really not remember a Finals from just over a year ago? People are really going to re-invision history and claim the same team that dominated this post season, with a hurt Dwyane Wade wasn't a "good" or in pauk's case "good enough" team in 2011?
These LeTard groupies are so annoying.
TheBigVeto
09-17-2012, 07:15 PM
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
Dude rebounded very well in that series though.
And the big difference is: Bird's team won the series. Bron's team lost.
WTF are you talking about fukktard?
Calm down kid...
The Heat lost because LeBron severely underperformed. Don't manipulate words to fit some asinine agenda.
They had Wade, Bosh, Haslem, Chalmers ... good enough to win, easily. They were up 2 games to 1 (should've been up 3) and crumbled because LeBron didn't even produce up to normal averages let alone exceed them the way an all-time talent should in his prime @ the big show, with everything on the line.
Did i say something else? But to be more accurate... the Heat lost because:
1. Lebron underperformed in the clutch, the 18 ppg wouldnt actually matter if he was able to hit some clutch shots or Lebron underperformed because he was to passive (defering to Wade, he took very few shots, he didnt actually shoot bad unless you think 48% FG is bad).
2. Wade underperformed in the clutch and overall Game 5 & 6 miserably.
3. Dirk was just depleting his best playoff run ever with his teammates playing out of their god damn minds......
Wade was absolutely clutch. He made countless critical baskets, and evern more impressive which your LeBron induced amnesia is conveniently forgetting is all the BIG TIME block shots on centers with easy looks at the rim.
Watch Game 5 and Game 6.
Wade out performed LeBron in the 2nd half of game 1 ... and continued to do so for the entire rest of the series.
NOPE.... nice try:
GAME 1:
Lebron was more productive than Wade... and they won, Lebron closed that game out.
GAME 2:
Wade was more productive than Lebron... and they losed, Wade was more clutch.
GAME 3:
Wade was more productive than Lebron... and they won, but it was Lebrons gamewinning behind the back assist to Bosh which was the gamewinner.
GAME 4:
Wade was more productive than Lebron... and they losed, Lebron was worse in the clutch.
GAME 5:
Lebron was more productive than Wade... and they losed, Wade was worse in the clutch.
GAME 6:
Lebron was more productive than Wade... and they losed, Wade was worse in the clutch.
LEBRON LED THEM TO 1 WIN
WADE LED THEM TO 1 WIN
WADE PLAYED BETTER 3 TIMES
LEBRON PLAYED BETTER 3 TIMES
The biggest reason to Lebron averaging 18 ppg is that 8 point game actually, which in only 3-6 games can take your average down dramatically... even if you only scored 30 points all the time in all other games....
Terry by the way was the man LeBron was guarding. Who during game 6 IN MIAMI carried a struggling Dirk through the first three quarters by dropping bucket after step back bucket in LeBron's mug.
Majority of shots came after screening Lebron out... and no, Lebron was not on Terry all the time.. it was Marion and Kidd aswell... equally...
Get with the program Savanna James, your boy is the reason the Miami Heat aren't Back to Back champs this year.
Denial should just be a river in Egypt.
Feel cool now dont ya kid?
Money 23
09-17-2012, 07:22 PM
No, LeBron balled in the first half of game 1, Wade was the one who was ballin in the 2nd half.
The only thing LeBron "closed out" was a meaningless crossover and dunk on Marion after the game had been decided.
The way you remember stuff Savanna is all kinds of messed up. But then again I can see why. If memory serves me correctly, the word out of your boy's camp was his long time g/f was busy getting d1cked down by now teammate Rashard Lewis.
And that was the new excuse why he was playing bad.
:oldlol:
coin24
09-17-2012, 07:22 PM
Cool essay pauk:facepalm
Lebron CHOKED
Stop trying to justify it. He sucked in the 07 finals and he completely choked, shrank, played like a P.U.S.S.Y, in the 11 finals..
Outplayed by terry and Marion:roll: :roll: :roll:
Pathetic..
Money 23
09-17-2012, 07:24 PM
Pathetic..
Don't forget not being able to put all 5'5 of JJ Barea in the post ...
:oldlol:
Or if he truly was the defender people were making him out to be, and if he wasn't doing much in terms of scoring or creating for others, why he didn't just guard Dirk and make an effort to lock him up since his offense was failing him all series.
LeBron could've made himself more useful. He didn't.
Larry shot poorly in '81 but he did the other things to help his team win. Created for others, passed extremely well, and rebounded like a monster.
LeBron and his uber athletic 6'9 genetic lottery body didn't allow him to do things that a slow white guy could on the big stage.
Why? Because Bird has something beating in his chest.
coin24
09-17-2012, 07:27 PM
Don't forget not being able to put all 5'5 of JJ Barea in the post ...
:oldlol:
Or if he truly was the defender people were making him out to be, and if he wasn't doing much in terms of scoring or creating for others, why he didn't just guard Dirk and make an effort to lock him up since his offense was failing him all series.
:roll: :roll:
Oh yeah I forgot, bronzey can guard all 5 positions:lol :lol :facepalm
Cool essay pauk:facepalm
Lebron CHOKED
Stop trying to justify it. He sucked in the 07 finals and he completely choked, shrank, played like a P.U.S.S.Y, in the 11 finals..
Outplayed by terry and Marion:roll: :roll: :roll:
Pathetic..
He did... i am not trying to justify it, i am only speaking withing the context of what was going on, using nothing but facts..
Now, that you as a Lebron hating Kobetard trying to be narrowminded about what was going on is another story...
plowking
09-17-2012, 07:30 PM
NOPE.... nice try:
GAME 1:
Lebron was more productive than Wade... and they won, Lebron closed that game out.
GAME 2:
Wade was more productive than Lebron... and they losed, Wade was more clutch.
GAME 3:
Wade was more productive than Lebron... and they won, but it was Lebrons gamewinning behind the back assist to Bosh which was the gamewinner.
GAME 4:
Wade was more productive than Lebron... and they losed, Lebron was worse in the clutch.
GAME 5:
Lebron was more productive than Wade... and they losed, Wade was worse in the clutch.
GAME 6:
Lebron was more productive than Wade... and they losed, Wade was worse in the clutch.
LEBRON LED THEM TO 1 WIN
WADE LED THEM TO 1 WIN
WADE PLAYED BETTER 3 TIMES
LEBRON PLAYED BETTER 3 TIMES
What kind of ass reasoning is this?
Wade was the only reason we were close in the games. Lebron played like ass, admit it. Wade played amazingly. The backtracking in your statements is hilarious to your usual thoughts.
What happened to just being productive and having teammates that can step up? Wade averaged 27/5/5 on 55% shooting in the series. That is phenomenal. Wade was phenomenal the whole series. Having a bad game doesn't take away from what he did, and he played perfectly fine in game 5.
Lebron wasn't close to being better than Wade in game 5. Wade played 12 less minutes due to picking up an injury and yet still comes back on and scores 6 more points than Lebron? Just because he got a triple double doesn't mean he played better. That was actually one of Lebron's worse games in the series.
You're an idiot plain and simple who comes to the aid of his favorite player any time someone utters a bad word about him.
He sucked, and its very unfortunate since I'm a Heat fan.
MiamiThrice
09-17-2012, 07:30 PM
As far as star players go, Kobe has by far the worst Finals performances.
LeBrons failure with the 2011 Finals was trying to be the facilitator of the team when that is a role he is not most comfortable in. He basically hid in the shows and wanted Wade to be the go-to scorer. This is not what made LeBron a three-time MVP and Finals MVP. When you look at his numbers they were actually quite efficient for a second option,
17.8 PPG 48% shooting 7.2 RPG 6.8 APG
For most championship teams that is a pretty decent option for a 2nd player, but LeBron is not a second option. His talents were not being utilized and he couldn't impact the game as much as he would have liked.
Meanwhile.....
Here we have Kobe Bryant in 2004 which will always go down as the Worst Finals performance among top 15 all-time players.
http://oi50.tinypic.com/2wc4dgk.jpg
Kobe Bryant: 22.6 PPG 38.1% shooting 2.4 RPG 4.4 APG 22.6 Shots per game
Shaq: 26.6 PPG 63.1% shooting 10.8 RPG 1.6 APG 16.8 Shots per game
In this series Kobe was fed up by being Shaqs sidekick. Despite the Pistons having noone that could cover a Shaq that was still at the end of his prime, Kobe felt it was a good idea to take 6 more shots than him despite shooting 38 ****ing percent from the field.
LOL
The biggest act or arrogance in a championship series of any sport. Kobe put himself above the teams goal and despite being heavily favored in the series, the Pistons did whatever the **** they wanted Perhaps Kobe could have played great defense, or rebounded like Bird did in 81? Or become a point forward getting others involved? No. Kobe was not having any of that. If LA was winning he was going to be the Finals MVP. Guess what happened?
LA got ****ing owned.
I'll take Lebron with his 18 PPG on 50% shooting along with good efficiency, rebounding, and facilitating over Kobe Bryant just chucking up awful shots and sabotaging the series. I'll be anything Miami wins in 2011 with a prime Shaq LOL.
No, LeBron balled in the first half of game 1, Wade was the one who was ballin in the 2nd half.
Now i wonder if you even saw the game? Here is the game... i suggest you watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYr-xMNTd-0
Are you just playing stupid just to try and live in a fantasy world where your Lebron butthurt blinded agenda can prevail.... or are you simply that stupid...
The only thing LeBron "closed out" was a meaningless crossover and dunk on Marion after the game had been decided.
Exactly... after it was decided BY HIM... i really strongly miserably suggest you re-watch that game...
The way you remember stuff Savanna is all kinds of messed up. But then again I can see why. If memory serves me correctly, the word out of your boy's camp was his long time g/f was busy getting d1cked down by now teammate Rashard Lewis.
And that was the new excuse why he was playing bad.
:oldlol:
What are you 12?
Young X
09-17-2012, 07:35 PM
Kobe's 2004 Finals>22pts (on 23 shots) on 36%, 6TO's.
What kind of ass reasoning is this?
The factual reasoning...
Wade was the only reason we were close in the games. Lebron played like ass, admit it. Wade played amazingly. The backtracking in your statements is hilarious to your usual thoughts.
Including Game 5 & 6?
What happened to just being productive and having teammates that can step up? Wade averaged 27/5/5 on 55% shooting in the series. That is phenomenal. Wade was phenomenal the whole series. Having a bad game doesn't take away from what he did, and he played perfectly fine in game 5.
Averaging 27-5-5 doesnt mean you played better than Lebron all games.... and he didnt...
You're an idiot plain and simple who comes to the aid of his favorite player any time someone utters a bad word about him.
Nope, Wade is my favorite player to... i am just an openminded guy telling what i saw... and what i saw can be easily proven...
He sucked, and its very unfortunate since I'm a Heat fan.
He did... but to say he is the ONLY reason the Heat losed when Wade was "choking" even more in a crucial Game 5 and especially Game 6.... is narrowminded.... Lebron was probably the bigger reason, but was not the ONLY reason..... which makes me seriously doubt that you are a Heat fan... unless you have an agenda in favor of Wade...
...and If Wade truly stepped up like how Lebron stepped up in absence of Wade in the series previous to Finals (the ECF against Bulls) they would have won... where Wade was even worse than Lebron in the Finals....
I love Wade, so please dont try that... i am just being fair and honest... fair is not blaming something entirely on ONE player, i refuse to do that if its not the entire truth... especially not when that player is the biggest reason they even got to the Finals...
Young X
09-17-2012, 07:47 PM
Wade did step up, the difference between the Bulls, and the Mavs series was Bosh.
plowking
09-17-2012, 07:47 PM
The factual reasoning...
Including Game 5 & 6?
Averaging 27-5-5 doesnt mean you played better than Lebron all games.... and he didnt...
Nope, Wade is my favorite player to... i am just an openminded guy telling what i saw... and what i saw can be easily proven...
He did... but to say he is the ONLY reason the Heat losed when Wade was "choking" even more in a crucial Game 5 and especially Game 6.... is narrowminded.... Lebron was probably the bigger reason, but was not the ONLY reason..... which makes me seriously doubt that you are a Heat fan... unless you have an agenda in favor of Wade...
Yeah, I don't really care if you doubt I'm a Heat fan since you first became one after the decision where as I was around way before that.
Wade was better in 4 out of the 6 games, and equal in the game 1. Congratulations for Lebron showing up in game 6 and finally deciding to lead the team.
Game 5? What are you talking about? The one where Wade picks up a nagging injury in the game and yet still comes back and manages to have a better game than Lebron?
The same game 5 where Wade had 10 of his 23 points in the 4th quarter? As well as 3 of his 8 assists. He basically racked up half of his stats in the quarter after sitting off injured. It was once Wade came back in that we actually retook the lead. Yet he choked? Shut up kid.
The factual reasoning is Wade had 4 great games, 1 good one (mainly due to being injured) and 1 bad one.
Lebron had 1 great game, 1 good game, and 4 bad ones. Actually terrible would be better suited to describe some of them.
plowking
09-17-2012, 07:50 PM
...and If Wade truly stepped up like how Lebron stepped up in absence of Wade in the series previous to Finals (the ECF against Bulls) they would have won... where Wade was even worse than Lebron in the Finals....
I love Wade, so please dont try that... i am just being fair and honest... fair is not blaming something entirely on ONE player, i refuse to do that if its not the entire truth... especially not when that player is the biggest reason they even got to the Finals...
What kind of reasoning is this? Mavs were better than the Bulls. Basketball is a dynamic sport. You can't place this here, and take that away and expect a constant. Its not simple maths, its a constantly changing product.
No ones saying Wade is better than Lebron. But don't say that Wade didn't have an all time great finals, that was wasted by the fact Lebron played like shit.
DFish
09-17-2012, 07:58 PM
pauk getting torched ITT, as usual. Kid knows jack shit about the sport, I'm convinced. Or he just likes to be deliberately obtuse in an attempt to minimize LeBron's 2011 failure.
KG215
09-17-2012, 08:07 PM
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
You're the kennethgriffin of LeBron stans. "Very many" huh? Care to list all of them since there's so many? I'm not talking about role players, either. I'm talking about superstars/best players on the team.
God man, at least try to be semi-objective when defending your boy. I think you get so upset and flustered when someone criticizes LeBron you don't even take the time to calm down and type a rational level-headed well thought out post.
KG215
09-17-2012, 08:09 PM
As far as star players go, Kobe has by far the worst Finals performances.
LeBrons failure with the 2011 Finals was trying to be the facilitator of the team when that is a role he is not most comfortable in. He basically hid in the shows and wanted Wade to be the go-to scorer. This is not what made LeBron a three-time MVP and Finals MVP. When you look at his numbers they were actually quite efficient for a second option,
17.8 PPG 48% shooting 7.2 RPG 6.8 APG
For most championship teams that is a pretty decent option for a 2nd player, but LeBron is not a second option. His talents were not being utilized and he couldn't impact the game as much as he would have liked.
More rationalizing from a LeBron stan.
Heavincent
09-17-2012, 08:20 PM
No. Lebron played more like Gerald Wallace in the 2011 Finals. It was a choke job of epic proportions.
Not hating by the way. He redeemed himself this past year.
coin24
09-17-2012, 09:25 PM
No. Lebron played more like Gerald Wallace in the 2011 Finals. It was a choke job of epic proportions.
Not hating by the way. He redeemed himself this past year.
No he was just adjusting to his new team. Even though they were fine in the season and playoffs. He was taking on more of a facilitator role for the finals..
He is like magic Johnson as you know, can guard all 5 positions..
07 and 11 finals don't count. Lebron is the best. He only failed because he wanted to, so he could share the wins around as he is a kind and caring chosen one:bowdown:
Pauk... (every post ever)
KOBE143
09-17-2012, 10:59 PM
As far as Kobe goes, 2004 is a good example, though 2000 Finals was his worst luck:
15.6 ppg @ 36% FG
4.4 rpg
4.6 apg
A truly great team that can back you up in those situations does wonders...
He was injured that time f@g0t.. He even missed one game.. Healthy Kobe in the WCF better teams and competition avg 21ppg 47fg% 5rpg 6apg 2spg 2.1bpg against Pippen, the best perimeter defender of all time.. And Kobe was 21 that time..
tmacattack33
09-17-2012, 10:59 PM
Lebron's Finals performance involved a lack of initiative and aggressiveness on his part. It was more stupid than bad.
A truly terrible performance would be a star player taking and missing way too many shots and getting a bunch of turnovers ie Russell Westbrook against the Mavericks last year...people were calling for OKC to consider trading him after that, and rightfully so.
RazorBaLade
09-17-2012, 11:32 PM
As far as Kobe goes, 2004 is a good example, though 2000 Finals was his worst luck:
15.6 ppg @ 36% FG
4.4 rpg
4.6 apg
A truly great team that can back you up in those situations does wonders...
im assuming u only mentioend this because kobe outclutched reggie miller in one of the games and won it single handedly ......... something bron needed to do in order to be sitting on 2 rings now instead of 1...
...and If Wade truly stepped up like how Lebron stepped up in absence of Wade in the series previous to Finals (the ECF against Bulls) they would have won... where Wade was even worse than Lebron in the Finals....
I love Wade, so please dont try that... i am just being fair and honest... fair is not blaming something entirely on ONE player, i refuse to do that if its not the entire truth... especially not when that player is the biggest reason they even got to the Finals...
Absolutely hilarious of you to imply that Wade deserves anywhere near the amount of blame as Lebron. :oldlol:
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
Very many :oldlol:
ripthekik
09-17-2012, 11:42 PM
I approve of this thread :applause: :applause: :applause:
pauk getting ethered.
oooooooh
:roll: :roll:
LakersReign
09-18-2012, 01:45 AM
I approve of this thread :applause: :applause: :applause:
pauk getting ethered.
oooooooh
:roll: :roll:
The funniest part about it is, he's getting owned and disowned mostly by Heat fans. Hilarious:lol
Horatio33
09-18-2012, 02:15 AM
Kobe in 2000 (he MISSED a finals game. Thought he was tough?!) and 2004. 2008 wasn't exactly covered in glory. No showed game 4 and quit in game 6.
scandisk_
09-18-2012, 02:16 AM
Well at least bronzy redeemed himself this year.
coin24
09-18-2012, 03:21 AM
I approve of this thread :applause: :applause: :applause:
pauk getting ethered.
oooooooh
:roll: :roll:
:lol :lol :lol
Kobe in 2000 (he MISSED a finals game. Thought he was tough?!) and 2004. 2008 wasn't exactly covered in glory. No showed game 4 and quit in game 6.
Kobe has relatively SUCKED in the Finals as well. Now I don't think he's had a Finals as good as Lebron's 2012 Finals. However, he's also never had one as bad as Lebron's 2011 Finals. NEVER. He never went out there scared to win or lose the game playing too passive. He's had series where he played too aggressive, 2004 specifically, but I'd rather have that then the other.
Calm down kid...
Did i say something else? But to be more accurate... the Heat lost because:
1. Lebron underperformed in the clutch, the 18 ppg wouldnt actually matter if he was able to hit some clutch shots or Lebron underperformed because he was to passive (defering to Wade, he took very few shots, he didnt actually shoot bad unless you think 48% FG is bad).
2. Wade underperformed in the clutch and overall Game 5 & 6 miserably.
3. Dirk was just depleting his best playoff run ever with his teammates playing out of their god damn minds.
What a stupid post. Him not being able to hit clutch shots wouldn't matter if he was scoring more beforehand so there wouldn't be as much of a need for clutch shots. Its really not that hard to spin that.
That whole FG% you're hiding behind doesn't change the fact that he didn't take enough shots.
Here's what his attempt averages were in the first 3 rounds:
18.9 FGA pg
3.8 3PA pg
9.1 FTA pg
In the Finals:
15.0 FGA pg
4.7 3PA pg
3.3 FTA pg
Not only did his FGAs go considerably down, and not surprisingly his FTAs as a result, but his 3PAs actually went up! He was actually taking more 3PAs then FTAs. Thats a whole new level of passiveness. And by the way, although he only took 20 FTs the whole series, he was only 60% from the line.
The worst part about it isn't really his numbers. Its how much the whole chemistry of the team was messed up since one of their leaders basically changed his whole approach to the game from how he was playing for the previous 100 games. And this wasn't something that his teammates were expecting, instead expecting that at any point Lebron would step up and get out of his funk. This had to have changed there approach to the game as well. Thats why I say they probably would've been better off without him, not necessarily winning but giving themselves a better chance, because they would've known what to expect from each other and been able to define their roles and responsibilities from the beginning.
Mr Exlax
09-18-2012, 11:38 AM
they would've known what to expect from each other and been able to define their roles and responsibilities from the beginning.
This reason right here is why I didn't expect them to make it to the Finals their first year together. I didn't think they would be able to get it figured out. I still look at it like the awesome defensive scheme of Dallas more than Lebron choking. After that interview with Mark Cuban when he talked about just how complex the defense was that they had implemented just to stop him further confirmed my thoughts. I will admit that they overloaded him mentally though. I think he became super passive because they wouldn't change the defense until the 4th quarter so he really had no time to adjust. I think he was just completly overthinking it in the 4th which was awesome to see. Shows just how important chemistry and teammates really are. The bad part is that if those shooters were knocking down the shots then none of this would be talked about.
AlphaWolf24
09-18-2012, 12:48 PM
As far as Kobe goes, 2004 is a good example, though 2000 Finals was his worst luck:
15.6 ppg @ 36% FG
4.4 rpg
4.6 apg
A truly great team that can back you up in those situations does wonders...
really?
So Lebron didn't have any great teammates?
b1imtf
09-18-2012, 12:54 PM
really?
So Lebron didn't have any great teammates?
Noooo. I mean, Wade was putting FMVP numbers, but LeBron's teammates always suck
AlphaWolf24
09-18-2012, 01:08 PM
Noooo. I mean, Wade was putting FMVP numbers, but LeBron's teammates always suck
wrong account Pauk...
Mr Exlax
09-18-2012, 01:17 PM
wrong account Pauk...
Wait people on here make more than 1 account? Why?
really?
So Lebron didn't have any great teammates?
Lebron had great teammates
Lebron didnt have great teammates enough that could back him up in those situations against that specific team
See the difference?
AlphaWolf24
09-18-2012, 01:29 PM
Lebron had great teammates
Lebron didnt have great teammates enough that could back him up in those situations against that specific team
See the difference?
yes he did...he had a guy who put up the greatest finals performance ever...( against nearly that same specific team)
Kobe in 2000 (he MISSED a finals game. Thought he was tough?!)
Kobe was f*cking injured that series moron. His ankle was so bad that they recommended he get surgery. Without him, L.A. loses that series. Kobe's infamous game 4 takeover helped seal the series. Imagine they lose that game because of Shaq fouling out? It's 3-2 Pacers and they have a shot at closing out the series in game 6.
What a stupid post. Him not being able to hit clutch shots wouldn't matter if he was scoring more beforehand so there wouldn't be as much of a need for clutch shots. Its really not that hard to spin that.
That whole FG% you're hiding behind doesn't change the fact that he didn't take enough shots.
Here's what his attempt averages were in the first 3 rounds:
18.9 FGA pg
3.8 3PA pg
9.1 FTA pg
In the Finals:
15.0 FGA pg
4.7 3PA pg
3.3 FTA pg
Not only did his FGAs go considerably down, and not surprisingly his FTAs as a result, but his 3PAs actually went up! He was actually taking more 3PAs then FTAs. Thats a whole new level of passiveness. And by the way, although he only took 20 FTs the whole series, he was only 60% from the line.
The worst part about it isn't really his numbers. Its how much the whole chemistry of the team was messed up since one of their leaders basically changed his whole approach to the game from how he was playing for the previous 100 games. And this wasn't something that his teammates were expecting, instead expecting that at any point Lebron would step up and get out of his funk. This had to have changed there approach to the game as well. Thats why I say they probably would've been better off without him, not necessarily winning but giving themselves a better chance, because they would've known what to expect from each other and been able to define their roles and responsibilities from the beginning.
You are talking about "ifs" and hypotheticals.... so am i but my theory is more realistic to how the games went and what Lebron truly needed to do in the context of those situations...
Because if you watch the series/games Lebron didnt really need to score or take any more shots "beforehand", yes he was extra passive/unselfish (hence the less shots) but Wade was on fire and they were doing perfectly fine... until the clutch moments came... thats where they needed him the most and he couldnt overall deliver... see the famous pics many Kobetards love to post here showing his output & accuracy in the 4th quarters... it was HORRIBLE by his standards, absolutely discusting, thats where he truly underperformed... by very very very far.... considering Lebron is the usual 4th quarter scoring leader and Clutch stats leader or at the top... and he was exactly that just before those Finals, he was amazingly clutch in all the series before that Finals... its easy to forget that he was overall with offense/defense most clutch in those playoffs BEFORE the Finals, he had very many gamewinning offensive/defensive plays, the only guy challenging that was Dirk..... which makes that clutch performance in the Finals even more of a shock....
Thats why your theory of him having to score more beforehand is unrealistic, they were doing perfectly fine "beforehand".... He didnt need to do it.... Look, even if he scored more "beforehand" what makes you think the other team couldnt respond during that time and then the game ends up with another clutch moment? Where Lebron absolutely sucked in that Finals.... but this time has a 30 PPG average for the series.... would that really make you think he performed better while still choking the game away in the 4th? Why? Just because he hogged the ball away from a hot Wade just to make his stats look nicer?
My point is: LEBRON NEEDED TO SCORE WHEN HIS TEAM NEEDED HIM TO SCORE AND BASED ON WHAT WE SAW THEY NEEDED HIM THE MOST IN THE CLUTCH..... WHERE HE WAS NOT ABLE TO DELIVER....
...and finally, yea, nice insult... stupid... woohoo...
yes he did...he had a guy who put up the greatest finals performance ever...( against nearly that same specific team)
Greatest finals performance ever? Did Wade do that in the 11 Finals? wow... i need to re-watch that series....
This reason right here is why I didn't expect them to make it to the Finals their first year together. I didn't think they would be able to get it figured out. I still look at it like the awesome defensive scheme of Dallas more than Lebron choking. After that interview with Mark Cuban when he talked about just how complex the defense was that they had implemented just to stop him further confirmed my thoughts. I will admit that they overloaded him mentally though. I think he became super passive because they wouldn't change the defense until the 4th quarter so he really had no time to adjust. I think he was just completly overthinking it in the 4th which was awesome to see. Shows just how important chemistry and teammates really are. The bad part is that if those shooters were knocking down the shots then none of this would be talked about.
Dallas was great and definitely had its effect, but I don't really agree. Lebron just choked. I don't think it was a coincidence that he looked significantly different basically the game after Wade had chewed him out, a reporter called him out in a press conference, and Jason Terry called him out. Seriously, for Dallas' defense to be that effective on someone as great as Lebron would have to be the greatest defensive performance, which is far-fetched. It doesn't explain why Lebron only averaged 3 FTs per game when he clearly would've gotten the superstar calls if he took it to the hole more often.
b1imtf
09-18-2012, 01:48 PM
wrong account Pauk...
LOL I was being sarcastic dude...
chazzy
09-18-2012, 01:51 PM
You are talking about "ifs" and hypotheticals.... so am i but my theory is more realistic to how the games went and what Lebron truly needed to do in the context of those situations...
Because if you watch the series/games Lebron didnt really need to score or take any more shots "beforehand", yes he was extra passive/unselfish (hence the less shots) but Wade was on fire and they were doing perfectly fine... until the clutch moments came... thats where they needed him the most and he couldnt overall deliver... see the famous pics many Kobetards love to post here showing his output & accuracy in the 4th quarters... it was HORRIBLE by his standards, absolutely discusting, thats where he truly underperformed... by very very very far....
Thats why your theory of him having to score more beforehand is unrealistic, they were doing perfectly fine "beforehand".... He didnt need to do it.... Look, even if he scored more "beforehand" what makes you think the other team couldnt respond during that time and then the game ends up with another clutch moment? Where Lebron absolutely sucks.... but this time has a 30 PPG average for the series.... would that really make you think he performed better while still choking the game away in the 4th? Why? Just because he hogged the ball away from a hot Wade just to make his stats look nicer?
What is a stupid post again?
How is it "perfectly fine" to merely keep up with a team you're supposed to beat?
And enough with the "Wade was hot so it held down Lebron" theory; what happened in the ECSF against Boston that year? Wade took even MORE shots (19.4 FGA) and scored 30ppg compared to his 26.5 on 18 FGA. And despite "hot Wade hogging the ball," Lebron took managed to take 21.6 shots and average 28ppg in that series, 10 more than he did against Dallas.
Its not like Lebron was struggling offensively "beforehand", NONE whatsoever.... Wade was on fire, he was simply being unselfish... he led everybody in assists if that matters anything... He didnt need to do more beforehand, he needed to CLOSE OUT THE GAMES... which was in the 4th.... where he "choked"...
This year Lebron averaged in the playoffs 10 PPG in the 4th quarter....... if you take that away then his PPG is 18-20 PPG....... see a resemblance? Thats how bad he was playing in the 4th in the Finals 4th quarter last year... he wasnt getting any 4th quarter production at all...
Lebron plays like that by majority of time "beforehand", chilling and facilitating, scoring here and there sometimes, but when the time is right late 3rd and full 4th quarter he steps on the gas and closes out games.... thats where he gets his biggest output of all quarters (unless he killed the team in the 3rd and is now on the bench in the 4th with a blowout lead).... this he was not able to do in the Finals, not even close....
As far as Kobe goes, 2004 is a good example, though 2000 Finals was his worst luck:
15.6 ppg @ 36% FG
4.4 rpg
4.6 apg
A truly great team that can back you up in those situations does wonders...
Why don't you go watch some games instead of just looking at box scores? Kobe only has one bad game in the 2000 Finals.
He only scored 2 points in game 2 because he twisted his ankle in the 1st quarter and left the game. He also didn't play in game 3 but returned the next game disregarding doctors orders.
In game 4 he single-handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th. He hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime in what is regarded as on of the most exciting playoff games and clutch performances in NBA history.
26/10/4/2/1 with only 1 TO and a great defensive game in the clinching game of the NBA Finals is excellent and game 4 was a great game when you consider what he did in the 4th quarter and overtime.
Kobe only played in 4 games that series and he averaged 19/5/6.
Ikill
09-18-2012, 01:57 PM
Its not hard to figure out what happened to Lebron for some strange Lebron lost a ton of athletic ability in 2011. He had trouble creating shots off the dribble and attacking the basket in the half court during the 2011 season. He couldn't even beat slow 7 footers off the dribble anymore but his jumpshot got really good so he was still able to get his numbers. In the finals his shot went broke so he really had no way to score.
KG215
09-18-2012, 01:58 PM
Its not like Lebron was struggling "beforehand", NONE whatsoever.... Wade was on fire, he was simply being unselfish... he led everybody in assists if that matters anything... He didnt need to do more beforehand, he needed to CLOSE OUT THE GAMES... which was in the 4th.... where he "choked"...
You can keep trying to rationalize it all you want but LeBron underperformed in that series. He was too passive and shied away from the moment in crunch time. There were tight games where, if he's aggressive and plays like he's capable, Miami wins. He didn't and they lost. End of discussion.
Ikill
09-18-2012, 02:02 PM
Its not like Lebron was struggling offensively "beforehand", NONE whatsoever.... Wade was on fire, he was simply being unselfish... he led everybody in assists if that matters anything... He didnt need to do more beforehand, he needed to CLOSE OUT THE GAMES... which was in the 4th.... where he "choked"...
This year Lebron averaged in the playoffs 10 PPG in the 4th quarter....... if you take that away then his PPG is 18-20 PPG....... see a resemblance? Thats how bad he was playing in the 4th in the Finals 4th quarter... he wasnt getting any 4th quarter production at all...
Lebron plays like that by majority, chilling and facilitating, scoring here and there sometimes, but when the time is right late 3rd and full 4th quarter he steps on the gas and closes out games.... thats where he gets his biggest output of all quarters.... this he was not able to do in the Finals, not even close....
Lebron had a lot of chances to take over Wade was only averaging 18 shots a game there were also large portions in each game where Wade wasn't even getting the ball.
You are talking about "ifs" and hypotheticals.... so am i but my theory is more realistic to how the games went and what Lebron truly needed to do in the context of those situations...
Because if you watch the series/games Lebron didnt really need to score or take any more shots "beforehand", yes he was extra passive/unselfish (hence the less shots) but Wade was on fire and they were doing perfectly fine... until the clutch moments came... thats where they needed him the most and he couldnt overall deliver... see the famous pics many Kobetards love to post here showing his output & accuracy in the 4th quarters... it was HORRIBLE by his standards, absolutely discusting, thats where he truly underperformed... by very very very far.... considering Lebron is the usual 4th quarter scoring leader and Clutch stats leader or at the top... and he was exactly that just before those Finals, he was amazingly clutch in all the series before that Finals... its easy to forget that he was overall with offense/defense most clutch in those playoffs BEFORE the Finals, he had very many gamewinning offensive/defensive plays, the only guy challenging that was Dirk..... which makes that clutch performance in the Finals even more of a shock....
Thats why your theory of him having to score more beforehand is unrealistic, they were doing perfectly fine "beforehand".... He didnt need to do it.... Look, even if he scored more "beforehand" what makes you think the other team couldnt respond during that time and then the game ends up with another clutch moment? Where Lebron absolutely sucked in that Finals.... but this time has a 30 PPG average for the series.... would that really make you think he performed better while still choking the game away in the 4th? Why? Just because he hogged the ball away from a hot Wade just to make his stats look nicer?
My point is: LEBRON NEEDED TO SCORE WHEN HIS TEAM NEEDED HIM TO SCORE AND BASED ON WHAT WE SAW THEY NEEDED HIM THE MOST IN THE CLUTCH..... WHERE HE WAS NOT ABLE TO DELIVER....
...and finally, yea, nice insult... stupid... woohoo...
Two players as scoring threats is alot better then one. I'm not talking about ifs. The team would've been much better off with Lebron taking more then 15 FGA and 3 FTAs per game. Thats a fact, whether its in the first 3 quarters or 4th quarter. And Wade was taking basically the same amount of shots as he was in the previous 3 rounds, when Lebron was playing normally and taking alot more shots. So more then likely, it wouldn't have been an impediment to Wade had Lebron took more shots.
Yes, he was obviously horrible in the clutch. No one is denying that obviously. But being horrible in the clutch isn't as big of a deal if he's playing better in the first 3 quarters. Thats basic logic. You can bring up how Dallas would've reacted or whatever, but clearly PLAYING BETTER at any point of the game is a positive effect for a team.
Either way you look at it, he played horrible for the game overall. Even if you want to excuse his play for the first 3 quarters, which only his biggest homer fans would, his 4th quarters were so all-time bad that it made his series all-time bad.
You can keep trying to rationalize it all you want but LeBron underperformed in that series. He was too passive and shied away from the moment in crunch time. There were tight games where, if he's aggressive and plays like he's capable, Miami wins. He didn't and they lost. End of discussion.
Did i say something else? My point is he underperformed because his ridicilously low 4th quarter output (he averages normally closer to 10 ppg there and in this 2011 Finals he averaged 0.000009, take away 10 ppg from Lebrons 28-30 ppg and you get 18-20 ppg)...... thats where they needed him the most... THATS WHERE HE UNDERPERFORMED
They were tight games where even if Lebron hogged the ball and took all shots beforehand and scored more the Mavs had ability to still respond and make it just as tight again........... now we are back to the 4th quarter again.... and still lose.... but Lebron has a higher PPG for the series... woohoo :rolleyes:
AlphaWolf24
09-18-2012, 02:08 PM
Greatest finals performance ever? Did Wade do that in the 11 Finals? wow... i need to re-watch that series....
you said he didn't have a teammate who could step up in the Finals against that team....
- but he did have a teammate who put up ( as voted) the greatest finals performance of alltime in 06' against the Mavericks...
- so he did have a teammate who could step up...
chazzy
09-18-2012, 02:13 PM
They were tight games where even if Lebron hogged the ball and took all shots beforehand and scored more the Mavs had ability to still respond and make it just as tight again........... now we are back to the 4th quarter again.... and still lose.... but Lebron has a higher PPG for the series... woohoo :rolleyes:
Based on what? Why couldn't he score alongside Wade and give them the one-two punch they had all year to run the score up?
Two players as scoring threats is alot better then one. I'm not talking about ifs. The team would've been much better off with Lebron taking more then 15 FGA and 3 FTAs per game. Thats a fact, whether its in the first 3 quarters or 4th quarter. And Wade was taking basically the same amount of shots as he was in the previous 3 rounds, when Lebron was playing normally and taking alot more shots. So more then likely, it wouldn't have been an impediment to Wade had Lebron took more shots.
Its true... becuse Lebron is a better player than Wade.
But you needed to tell Wade that during those series... because he was on fire and they were in a situation where Lebron didnt need to take more than 15 FGA and 3 FTAs.... they were doing fine. They were only in a situation where one of those missed 15 FGAs and 3 FTAs needed to be successful where they were not successful....... which was in the 4th quarter..........
Based on what? Why couldn't he score alongside Wade and give them the one-two punch they had all year to run the score up?
Lebron scored around 17-18 ppg in 3 quarters... and basically closer to 0 in the 4th... in the 2011 Finals..
Lebron averages for his career close to 18 ppg in 3 quarters... and the rest comes in the 4th....
So basically, Lebron & Wade had a one-two punch in the Finals in 3 quarters and Lebron did his usual thing in 3 quarters... but in the 4th... NO....
Once again, Lebron underperformed most importantly because of his ridicilously and shockingly low 4th quarter output.....
Mach_3
09-18-2012, 02:25 PM
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
Why bring up a series when you CLEARLY have no idea what your talking about? :facepalm
SHAQisGOAT
09-18-2012, 02:26 PM
Very many....
1981 Finals Larry Bird is a good example to start with:
Game 1 - 18 pts
Game 2 -19 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts
Game 6 - 27 pts
Let's forget about the 15.3 RPG (against guys like Moses or Paultz), 7.0 APG, 2.3 SPG and 0.5 BPG...
Plus this was only in his 2nd year, had no superstar around, yeah Cornbread was really great (gets overlooked) and came through but still he wasn't no superstar caliber player, Parish wasn't at his very best (he was never big on big moments though), McHale was still young, wasn't seeing many minutes, Tiny played like crap in those Finals also.
He came through in game 6 with scoring and oh yeah, they've won, he could've easily got FMVP, Maxwell deserved it though.
And a guy like Magic had Kareem from the get go, Bird had to carry all the pressure and be the main man since day one, changed a dying franchise, that's also worth a mention.
Its true... becuse Lebron is a better player than Wade.
But you needed to tell Wade that during those series... because he was on fire and they were in a situation where Lebron didnt need to take more than 15 FGA and 3 FTAs.... they were doing fine. They were only in a situation where one of those missed 15 FGAs and 3 FTAs needed to be successful where they were not successful....... which was in the 4th quarter..........
Whats true? That two scoring threats is better then one?
Tell Wade what? Lebron CLEARLY needed to take more then that whether it was in the first 3 quarters or 4th quarter. 3 FTAs for a superstar of his caliber and taking more 3Ps then FTs is disgusting.
A team isn't fine if all they're doing is keeping up when they are capable of doing more especially when it ends up biting them in the ass in the end.
You're trying to spin this by saying Lebron only played badly in the 4th quarter as if to say he was only bad 25% of the time. You're clearly biased if you're actually trying to spin this into those simplistic terms, and for even trying to deflect blame on Wade.
And like I said, the biggest problem with his play was the fact that it f*cked up the approach of the entire team.
KG215
09-18-2012, 02:37 PM
Did i say something else? My point is he underperformed because his ridicilously low 4th quarter output (he averages normally closer to 10 ppg there and in this 2011 Finals he averaged 0.000009, take away 10 ppg from Lebrons 28-30 ppg and you get 18-20 ppg)...... thats where they needed him the most... THATS WHERE HE UNDERPERFORMED
They were tight games where even if Lebron hogged the ball and took all shots beforehand and scored more the Mavs had ability to still respond and make it just as tight again........... now we are back to the 4th quarter again.... and still lose.... but Lebron has a higher PPG for the series... woohoo :rolleyes:
Guess what, when you're LeBron James and considered the best player in the NBA, if you under perform to that extent in the fourth quarter in the NBA Finals, it's more than just having one bad quarter each game. What you're doing it is trying to rationalize his performance when it's much more than shying away in the fourth quarter. It's the fourth quarters of the NBA Finals. That's as big as it gets. When a player of his magnitude shrinks away and plays that poorly in crunch time on that stage, it's bad.
Besides, he had other entire GAMES where he was pretty mediocre or, by his standards, just flatout bad.
lilgodfather1
09-18-2012, 02:38 PM
You said "good thing Larry had a good team" ... as if to say LeBron didn't ...
:oldlol:
Once again LeBron's failure is pawned off to the rest of his mates? Wait didn't you do that in Cleveland, when that argument was ACTUALLY legitimate. But on the Heat? If one makes that excuse their opinion on anything is no longer valid.
Actually in 2010 LeBron had a team that should have won, but he quit. In 2011 the entire team choked outside of Wade who had a good series. In 2012 we saw the difference between LeBron playing below his standards (only on ISH is 18/7/7 considered an all time worst performance lol, that's like Magic's pace adjusted average...), and Wade playing below his standards.
LeBron didn't play great, but 18ppg on 48% isn't that bad.
Larry had better teammates than LeBron obviously because his team was still able to win.
KG215
09-18-2012, 02:47 PM
Actually in 2010 LeBron had a team that should have won, but he quit. In 2011 the entire team choked outside of Wade who had a good series. In 2012 we saw the difference between LeBron playing below his standards (only on ISH is 18/7/7 considered an all time worst performance lol, that's like Magic's pace adjusted average...), and Wade playing below his standards.
LeBron didn't play great, but 18ppg on 48% isn't that bad.
Larry had better teammates than LeBron obviously because his team was still able to win.
And what's LeBron's "pace adjusted" average? Magic's job wasn't to score. He wasn't ever relied on to be more than 18-20 ppg scorer until later in his career.
KG215
09-18-2012, 02:53 PM
Its not like Lebron was struggling offensively "beforehand", NONE whatsoever....
None whatsoever? Do you post these hyperbolic statements on purpose or do you actually believe them? Maybe he didn't struggle because you don't view being passive and not being aggressive as not struggling.
I'm still waiting on that list of "very many" players of LeBron's caliber in their prime that were that passive and under performed below their standards to that level in the NBA Finals. If there's "very man" then you should be able to name four or five no problem.
Mach_3
09-18-2012, 03:01 PM
Actually in 2010 LeBron had a team that should have won, but he quit. In 2011 the entire team choked outside of Wade who had a good series. In 2012 we saw the difference between LeBron playing below his standards (only on ISH is 18/7/7 considered an all time worst performance lol, that's like Magic's pace adjusted average...), and Wade playing below his standards.
LeBron didn't play great, but 18ppg on 48% isn't that bad.
Larry had better teammates than LeBron obviously because his team was still able to win.
What the hell kind of logic is this?
coin24
09-18-2012, 03:10 PM
What the hell kind of logic is this?
Pauk gets upset if you say bad things about bronzey:oldlol: He goes into a blind f@ggot homer rage and starts typing, usually making up words in the process:facepalm
Either he is 14, or has serious mental issues. There are stans, and then there's pauk:oldlol:
SHAQisGOAT
09-18-2012, 03:15 PM
What the hell kind of logic is this?
Fo real
26 points, 11-20 from the field, 13 rebounds, 5 assits (only 1 TO), with some really clutch shots in game 6, btw
KG215
09-18-2012, 03:17 PM
What the hell kind of logic is this?
It's the perfect example of stan logic. It's no different than Kobe stans saying a big reason why "Kobe >>> Shaq" is because Shaq didn't and/or couldn't win until he got Kobe.
ihoopallday
09-18-2012, 03:20 PM
LeBron choked in 2011. No doubt about it. Won't even try to rationalize that situation. However, it's amazing he was able to put that behind him and win this year.
tmacattack33
09-18-2012, 03:24 PM
I'd have to watch the games again to truly make a judgement on if Lebron's Finals was terrible, bad, or just below average with a lack of aggressiveness.
I mean if he drew in the defense and then passed teammate early on the clock most of the time, or gave the ball up to Wade and Bosh early, it really isn't that bad. It's just neutral.
If he had the ball, and tried to break down Marion but couldn't and dribbled the ball until there was less than 8 or so seconds on the shot clock before passing it up to a guy with no advantage over the defense, then that is a failed possession and is obviously bad.
LakersReign
09-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Pauk gets upset if you say bad things about bronzey:oldlol: He goes into a blind f@ggot homer rage and starts typing, usually making up words in the process:facepalm
Either he is 14, or has serious mental issues. There are stans, and then there's pauk:oldlol:
:roll: :applause: :bowdown: :lol :roll:
Overdrive
09-18-2012, 03:27 PM
Actually in 2010 LeBron had a team that should have won, but he quit. In 2011 the entire team choked outside of Wade who had a good series. In 2012 we saw the difference between LeBron playing below his standards (only on ISH is 18/7/7 considered an all time worst performance lol, that's like Magic's pace adjusted average...), and Wade playing below his standards.
LeBron didn't play great, but 18ppg on 48% isn't that bad.
It's an all time worst from a perspective that that very same guy put up 27/7/7 during the RS just one month before and suddenly started to defer on decesive position. No he didn't even defer, he was standing in the corner on alot of occassions like some Kyle Korveresque spot up shooter.
If Shaq, Duncan, Kobe or any other "teamleader" of the recent NBA would have been that passive in his prime they'd get similar flak. His passiveness of course changed the play of others on the team, of course role players choke when one of the best drivers of the team doesn't do his thing. James spread the floor, which helped the Mavs and didn't fit his style.
He's more of a drive and kicker pg with a 6'8" 250-260(don't know his weight just guessing) frame.
Larry had better teammates than LeBron obviously because his team was still able to win.
Larry put up 15/15/7 as a Sophomore, of course he had good teammates, but none of Wade caliber.
ihoopallday
09-18-2012, 03:27 PM
I'd have to watch the games again to truly make a judgement on if Lebron's Finals was terrible, bad, or just below average with a lack of aggressiveness.
I mean if he drew in the defense and passed to a teammate most of the time, and gave the ball up to Wade and Bosh early, it really isn't that bad. It's just neutral.
If he had the ball, and tried to break down Marion but couldn't and dribbled the ball until there was less than 8 or so seconds on the shot clock before passing it up to a guy with no advantage over the defense, then that is a failed possession and is obviously bad.
I'll save you the trouble. Dude choked big time. It was like someone had his family hostage and forced him to play shitty. Anyways, what really pissed me off is how could he be so dominant the first three rounds, then just completely turn it off in the finals.
tmacattack33
09-18-2012, 03:35 PM
I'll save you the trouble. Dude choked big time. It was like someone had his family hostage and forced him to play shitty. Anyways, what really pissed me off is how could he be so dominant the first three rounds, then just completely turn it off in the finals.
That is Skip Bayless and Stephen A cliche and over the top super-hero talk. This guy "choked" or this team "just didn't want it bad enough" or that guy "had that look of an assassin in his eyes".
I, like Mark Cuban said in his brilliant and now famous ethering of Skip and Stephen A Smith, need concrete analysis about what actually happened on the court.
And if it was case 1 in my post, then Lebron played neutral. If it was case 2, he hurt his team and made it harder for them to win, which is the definition of playing badly.
ihoopallday
09-18-2012, 03:41 PM
That is Skip Bayless and Stephen A cliche and over the top super-hero talk. This guy "choked" or this team "just didn't want it bad enough" or that guy "had that look of an assassin in his eyes".
I, like Mark Cuban said in his brilliant and now famous ethering of Skip and Stephen A Smith, need concrete analysis about what actually happened on the court.
And if it was case 1 in my post, then Lebron played neutral. If it was case 2, he hurt his team and made it harder for them to win, which is the definition of playing badly.
Well yeah you'd have to watch the games yourself for better analysis. It'd take too long for me to sit here and explain it to you. But hey, why even go back to that terrible time. Enjoy them winning this year!! :banana:
Ikill
09-18-2012, 03:42 PM
I'll save you the trouble. Dude choked big time. It was like someone had his family hostage and forced him to play shitty. Anyways, what really pissed me off is how could he be so dominant the first three rounds, then just completely turn it off in the finals.
He was pretty good in the rounds before but he's had better playoff performance s before wasn't anything amazing. He struggled to create off the dribble the entire postseason but he was saved by his incredibly hot jumpshot. It went broke and he couldn't attack the basket like he used to be able so he was confused. This year he played more off the ball and in the post he took a different approach this year it allowed him to stay dominant when his jumpshot wasn't on.
Mr Exlax
09-18-2012, 03:43 PM
That is Skip Bayless and Stephen A cliche and over the top super-hero talk. This guy "choked" or this team "just didn't want it bad enough" or that guy "had that look of an assassin in his eyes".
I, like Mark Cuban said in his brilliant and now famous ethering of Skip and Stephen A Smith, need concrete analysis about what actually happened on the court.
And if it was case 1 in my post, then Lebron played neutral. If it was case 2, he hurt his team and made it harder for them to win, which is the definition of playing badly.
I wish I could've listen to Mark Cuban break down those defensive schemes more. It was awesome. Most of them I noticed during the games, but a lot of it I didn't. I've always been rooting for the guy, but as a fan of basketball it was almost like art the way they shut him down. It was amazing that they planned on doing it in the 4th quarter every time. Smart way of not giving him or Spo time to adjust. Gonna go home and watch the games again.
Ikill
09-18-2012, 03:47 PM
I'd have to watch the games again to truly make a judgement on if Lebron's Finals was terrible, bad, or just below average with a lack of aggressiveness.
I mean if he drew in the defense and then passed teammate early on the clock most of the time, or gave the ball up to Wade and Bosh early, it really isn't that bad. It's just neutral.
If he had the ball, and tried to break down Marion but couldn't and dribbled the ball until there was less than 8 or so seconds on the shot clock before passing it up to a guy with no advantage over the defense, then that is a failed possession and is obviously bad.
Wade wasn't getting the ball enough in last years finals IMO. If Lebron wasn't willing to be aggressive himself he should of tried to get the ball more to Wade and played off him. It did feel like Lebron was handling the ball a lot and wasn't doing anything with it.
ihoopallday
09-18-2012, 03:48 PM
I wish I could've listen to Mark Cuban break down those defensive schemes more. It was awesome. Most of them I noticed during the games, but a lot of it I didn't. I've always been rooting for the guy, but as a fan of basketball it was almost like art the way they shut him down. It was amazing that they planned on doing it in the 4th quarter every time. Smart way of not giving him or Spo time to adjust. Gonna go home and watch the games again.
I'll never watch those games again. What's even worst is we could've been up 2-0 if we don't have that epic choke job in game 2. But credit to the Mavs. They were just playing lights out. Whenever Dirk wasn't playing to his standards, some other player would step up. Can't say the same for Miami.
Mach_3
09-18-2012, 03:57 PM
Pauk gets upset if you say bad things about bronzey:oldlol: He goes into a blind f@ggot homer rage and starts typing, usually making up words in the process:facepalm
Either he is 14, or has serious mental issues. There are stans, and then there's pauk:oldlol:
Now that you mention it he does post exactly like pauk, dude must have no social life to keep creating usernames like that :hammerhead:
and KG215 thats why i usually only come to this site for the lulz cause 90% of the board is trolls :confusedshrug:
Bigsmoke
09-18-2012, 04:47 PM
this is one of the reasons why i dont post here too often
too much LeBron's dick'licking
BlackVVaves
09-18-2012, 05:54 PM
Pauk....:roll:
I truly wonder if you even watched basketball before 2003. Bringing up a sophomore Bird, or even a 21 year old, injured Kobe Bryant, to compare to a prime Lebron in his second Finals appearance on the best team he had ever had by a long, long shot at that time truly shows your remarkable ineptitude to conceptualize anything beyond statistics.
Calling Wade, if I could paraphrase, an 'under-performer' just to save the face of your adulthood hero is equally shameful. You go on about "Lebron bettered Wade" in this game and "Wade better Lebron" in that game, when the topic at hand specifically addresses the Finals series. Wade was simply the better player by a considerate margin in the series, and no amount of basking in Basketball Reference can alter that. What statistics don't show is Lebron's passive play, his timidness when challenged by Dallas' brute attitude and brash style of play. Wade responded to their aggression with aggressive production. Lebron responded with what even the most objective fans diagnosed as mental incapacity.
Which is not to say there were not other factors involved as well, and only the most subjective fans would argue otherwise. Dallas effectively preyed on Miami's two supreme weaknesses: penetration drives and proficiency against the zone. Not surprisingly, the only team that has come close to coupling those two game plans - the 2011-2012 Boston Celtics - took the Heat to 7 games and nearly eliminated them (though it must be noted Bosh missed most of the series). Boston simply did not have the fire power in talent to compete with Miami's deadly duo of Bron and Wade in the closeout games, and it is my theory that if a team with enough upper echelon talent adapts those same principles that Dallas in 2011 and Boston in 2012 enforced, the Heat will find themselves on the wrong end of a playoff series.
But, I digress. Though those factors played a role in Bron's regression, his passiveness was alarming and rightfully highlighted as the main barrier that held him to such low offensive output, both in the series and the 4th quarter inparticularly. And, even more humiliating, was his "defensive prowess" exposed by a much lesser player in Jason Terry the few times he found himself guarding him. Which, in context, was humilating when Jason Terry himself had called out Lebron in the media after Game 4. But again, Bron's mental incapacity serves as the culprit.
Bird, Magic, Kobe, they have all had disappointing Finals. It's bound to happen when you are spending as many times in the Finals as those type of great players do. However, their subpar performances were never due to a lack of effort or competitiveness. Even in Kobe's lackluster (to say the least) Finals performance in 2004 (against the best defensive team in modern era, as it should be noted), he went down fighting (shooting would be the better served verb here, :facepalm ).
But, he, nor Bird, Magic, or any other great you'd like to draw comparison to, ever had their will questioned. Their effort. Their toughness. Magic maybe, during his "Tragic Magic" summer. But, that was one summer. People had been questioning those things about Lebron for YEARS. And those are things that can't be measured by stats, my dear Pauk. Those are facets of the game that one must assess through observation. Those are also facets of the game that can be the difference between second place and your first ever championship. Facets that Lebron unquestionably displayed (for the most part) in this past post-season. And, surprise surprise, a new champion was born.
To answer the OP, I'm not sure if it was the worst Finals performance by a All-Time great in NBA history. But, it certainly was the worst performance of a All-Time great in the last 35 years of NBA history.
tmacattack33
09-18-2012, 06:06 PM
Pauk....:roll:
I truly wonder if you even watched basketball before 2003. Bringing up a sophomore Bird, or even a 21 year old, injured Kobe Bryant, to compare to a prime Lebron in his second Finals appearance on the best team he had ever had by a long, long shot at that time truly shows your remarkable ineptitude to conceptualize anything beyond statistics.
Calling Wade, if I could paraphrase, an 'under-performer' just to save the face of your adulthood hero is equally shameful. You go on about "Lebron bettered Wade" in this game and "Wade better Lebron" in that game, when the topic at hand specifically addresses the Finals series. Wade was simply the better player by a considerate margin in the series, and no amount of basking in Basketball Reference can alter that. What statistics don't show is Lebron's passive play, his timidness when challenged by Dallas' brute attitude and brash style of play. Wade responded to their aggression with aggressive production. Lebron responded with what even the most objective fans diagnosed as mental incapacity.
Which is not to say there were not other factors involved as well, and only the most subjective fans would argue otherwise. Dallas effectively preyed on Miami's two supreme weaknesses: penetration drives and proficiency against the zone. Not surprisingly, the only team that has come close to coupling those two game plans - the 2011-2012 Boston Celtics - took the Heat to 7 games and nearly eliminated them (though it must be noted Bosh missed most of the series). Boston simply did not have the fire power in talent to compete with Miami's deadly duo of Bron and Wade in the closeout games, and it is my theory that if a team with enough upper echelon talent adapts those same principles that Dallas in 2011 and Boston in 2012 enforced, the Heat will find themselves on the wrong end of a playoff series.
But, I digress. Though those factors played a role in Bron's regression, his passiveness was alarming and rightfully highlighted as the main barrier that held him to such low offensive output, both in the series and the 4th quarter inparticularly. And, even more humiliating, was his "defensive prowess" exposed by a much lesser player in Jason Terry the few times he found himself guarding him. Which, in context, was humilating when Jason Terry himself had called out Lebron in the media after Game 4. But again, Bron's mental incapacity serves as the culprit.
Bird, Magic, Kobe, they have all had disappointing Finals. It's bound to happen when you are spending as many times in the Finals as those type of great players do. However, their subpar performances were never due to a lack of effort or competitiveness. Even in Kobe's lackluster (to say the least) Finals performance in 2004 (against the best defensive team in modern era, as it should be noted), he went down fighting (shooting would be the better served verb here, :facepalm ).
But, he, nor Bird, Magic, or any other great you'd like to draw comparison to, ever had their will questioned. Their effort. Their toughness. Magic maybe, during his "Tragic Magic" summer. But, that was one summer. People had been questioning those things about Lebron for YEARS. And those are things that can't be measured by stats, my dear Pauk. Those are facets of the game that one must assess through observation. Those are also facets of the game that can be the difference between second place and your first ever championship. Facets that Lebron unquestionably displayed (for the most part) in this past post-season. And, surprise surprise, a new champion was born.
To answer the OP, I'm not sure if it was the worst Finals performance by a All-Time great in NBA history. But, it certainly was the worst performance of a All-Time great in the last 35 years of NBA history.
1. More discussion about what was going on in Lebron's head than discussion of the actual game. Yes, he wasn't as aggressive as he could have been and mentally was had a terrible series. We are talking about his actual play here though.
2. When you actually discussed something concrete, you selectively only discussed something in your side's favor (game 4, Jason Terry scoring on Lebron) and didn't mention another game where Lebron held shut Terry down.
BlackVVaves
09-18-2012, 06:09 PM
Actually in 2010 LeBron had a team that should have won, but he quit. In 2011 the entire team choked outside of Wade who had a good series. In 2012 we saw the difference between LeBron playing below his standards (only on ISH is 18/7/7 considered an all time worst performance lol, that's like Magic's pace adjusted average...), and Wade playing below his standards.
LeBron didn't play great, but 18ppg on 48% isn't that bad.
Larry had better teammates than LeBron obviously because his team was still able to win.
That is such horrid logic that I wonder if you truly mean what you say. Like KG215 alluded to, Magic was never called upon to be an offensive powerhouse of his team until his latter years. And even then, the team still utilized Worthy and Scott as their predominant scorers. Though Magic was quite capable of taking over a game offensively (for instance, Game 2 of the WCF semis in '91, where he dropped 44 points against Mullin's 41 point game. Just one of many examples of him stepping up offensively when his team dearly needed offensive production.)
Lebron in essence represented the exact opposite in 2011. His team's leading scorer in the regular season and playoffs until that series, Lebron's role as a offensively productive player was mandated for the Heat to succeed. Saying his 18/7/7 production would be great if it was another player is asinine. What was needed for the Heat to win throughout the season and post-season? Lebron scoring. What didn't happen in the NBA Finals?
Lebron scoring.
swi7ch
09-18-2012, 06:19 PM
No, that was the worst performance in a Finals series ever by a top 10 player of all time.
All is forgotten though because he just won last year AND was Finals MVP, too! :applause:
NumberSix
09-18-2012, 06:22 PM
2012 James Harden.
BlackVVaves
09-18-2012, 06:24 PM
1. More discussion about what was going on in Lebron's head than discussion of the actual game. Yes, he wasn't as aggressive as he could have been and mentally was had a terrible series. We are talking about his actual play here though.
2. When you actually discussed something concrete, you selectively only discussed something in your side's favor (game 4, Jason Terry scoring on Lebron) and didn't mention another game where Lebron held shut Terry down.
A) Maybe you didn't read my post, because I clearly state there were other factors and even highlight them. For Lebron personally, the Mavs defensive zones, versatility, and aggression played a part in Lebron's struggles. However, Lebron combatted those schemes with passiveness, not the aggression of a two-time MVP. Conversely, Lebron obliterated a similiar defensive structure by the Celtics, due to his uncanny aggression and post game.
B) I mentioned that Terry called Lebron out after Game 4, and that in the proceeding games got the best of him when guarded by Bron. It has nothing to do with "my side," but rather my approach to highlight another instance of Lebron not taking well to aggressive competitiveness from the opposition.
Bron did a very good job on Terry Games 1-3. After that, when the series held in the balance? Not so much.
Also, please don't try and discredit my post as "not concrete." Everything in my posts are "concrete." Ironic that you can categorize my post as baseless, when most of your posts around here are subjective jargon to diminish the successes of Kobe Bryant.
You're one of the more agenda driven posters on ISH, as many could and have attested to. But, my post isn't concrete. Right :rolleyes:
BlackVVaves
09-18-2012, 06:27 PM
No, that was the worst performance in a Finals series ever by a top 10 player of all time.
All is forgotten though because he just won last year AND was Finals MVP, too! :applause:
Pretty much this, on both accounts. Though I wouldn't say forgotten. Just, redeemed.
KG215
09-18-2012, 06:34 PM
1. More discussion about what was going on in Lebron's head than discussion of the actual game. Yes, he wasn't as aggressive as he could have been and mentally was had a terrible series. We are talking about his actual play here though.
2. When you actually discussed something concrete, you selectively only discussed something in your side's favor (game 4, Jason Terry scoring on Lebron) and didn't mention another game where Lebron held shut Terry down.
In this case his passiveness, lack of aggression, and flatout content to just go stand off to the side for stretches of the game (particularly the fourth quarter) is concrete. There's not much else that needs to be said. Hhis overall numbers, out of context and ignoring who posted them, were great. If, say, James Harden had averaged 18/7/7 or even 18/5/5 for OKC the Finals this year, that'd be great (and OKC might have won game 3 and/or 4) from your third option.
And yes, LeBron essentially matched his APG and RPG totals from the regular season, but that 8-10 fewer PPG was very detrimental to his team. You can say that was in-large part due to his poor fourth quarters but, contrary to what pauk said, he wasn't spending the first three quarters of all six games facilitating and getting others involved. Not saying he was standing off to the side twiddling his thumbs the entirety of all six games, but there were other times he was non-existent and forgettable in the first three quarters. It'd probably be more forgiving, as weird as this may sound, if he had averaged 18 PPG on 40%-45% shooting instead of 48% because it'd at least show he was shooting more and being more aggressive. He was averaging 26 PPG on 46% and 19 FGA per game through the ECF. He gets to the Finals and all of a sudden he's averaging 18 PPG on 48% and 15 FGA per game. And again, contrary to the psychobabble bullshit pauk is spewing, he wasn't shooting and being less aggressive because Wade was "on fire."
For whatever reason he became a mental midget during the Finals, stopped playing the way that had helped the Heat roll through the Eastern Conference playoffs and, as a result, they lost in the Finals to a team everyone was picking them to beat. The 2011 Finals are always going to be a blackmark on LeBron's resume. It was an incredibly abysmal showing by a player with top 5 all-time potential and will be hard to completely ignore. He got started on the right path (the path of redemption) with his play in the 2012 playoffs, but he does still have some work to do.
KG215
09-18-2012, 06:38 PM
2012 James Harden.
A 22 year old third option not even in his prime playing in his first NBA Finals....yeah, that's the same thing as a 26 year old LeBron James at his peak as his team's #1 option.
Indian guy
09-18-2012, 06:44 PM
It's certainly the most perplexing performance by a superstar. He basically stopped playing after Game 2. Honestly, Mark Cuban owes LeBron a ring for that series. He's the only reason Dallas won.
Heavincent
09-18-2012, 06:47 PM
Honestly, Mark Cuban owes LeBron a ring for that series. He's the only reason Dallas won.
What a bunch of ****ing non-sense. So I guess Dallas' defense had nothing to do with it?
BlackVVaves
09-18-2012, 07:10 PM
In this case his passiveness, lack of aggression, and flatout content to just go stand off to the side for stretches of the game (particularly the fourth quarter) is concrete. There's not much else that needs to be said. Hhis overall numbers, out of context and ignoring who posted them, were great. If, say, James Harden had averaged 18/7/7 or even 18/5/5 for OKC the Finals this year, that'd be great (and OKC might have won game 3 and/or 4) from your third option.
And yes, LeBron essentially matched his APG and RPG totals from the regular season, but that 8-10 fewer PPG was very detrimental to his team. You can say that was in-large part due to his poor fourth quarters but, contrary to what pauk said, he wasn't spending the first three quarters of all six games facilitating and getting others involved. Not saying he was standing off to the side twiddling his thumbs the entirety of all six games, but there were other times he was non-existent and forgettable in the first three quarters. It'd probably be more forgiving, as weird as this may sound, if he had averaged 18 PPG on 40%-45% shooting instead of 48% because it'd at least show he was shooting more and being more aggressive. He was averaging 26 PPG on 46% and 19 FGA per game through the ECF. He gets to the Finals and all of a sudden he's averaging 18 PPG on 48% and 15 FGA per game. And again, contrary to the psychobabble bullshit pauk is spewing, he wasn't shooting and being less aggressive because Wade was "on fire."
For whatever reason he became a mental midget during the Finals, stopped playing the way that had helped the Heat roll through the Eastern Conference playoffs and, as a result, they lost in the Finals to a team everyone was picking them to beat. The 2011 Finals are always going to be a blackmark on LeBron's resume. It was an incredibly abysmal showing by a player with top 5 all-time potential and will be hard to completely ignore. He got started on the right path (the path of redemption) with his play in the 2012 playoffs, but he does still have some work to do.
I couldn't agree more. What Bron didn't do...or more accurately, what he didn't attempt to do...hurt his team more than the help from what he did do provided (if that makes sense).
Scoring isn't the entire game, this much is true. But, in this context, scoring is what the Heat truly needed from Lebron, particularly in the 4th quarter.
It's not that he didn't score. It's that he was far too passive in his approach to to each game outside of Game 1 to even try to score. When you are the best player in the league, and essentially disappear on the court to the point where everyone watching the game is asking "Is Lebron on the floor?" almost every game, there is a serious, serious problem.
1. More discussion about what was going on in Lebron's head than discussion of the actual game. Yes, he wasn't as aggressive as he could have been and mentally was had a terrible series. We are talking about his actual play here though.
2. When you actually discussed something concrete, you selectively only discussed something in your side's favor (game 4, Jason Terry scoring on Lebron) and didn't mention another game where Lebron held shut Terry down.
His mentality/approach to the game should be factored into his actual play because it does have an impact on the game. There is a difference between going 18/7/7 on 48% with a passive and timid approach Lebron had and going 18/7/7 on 48% with an aggressive and confident approach that Lebron has had in numerous other games he's had in his career. Fact is it frames the tone of the whole game and affects the approach and confidence of his teammates AND his opponents. In his teammates case, when they've been used to their best player playing a certain way for the previous 100 games or so but then he decides to play totally different all of a sudden with his body language and attitude looking completely different, they then don't always know what spot to be in, how aggressive they should be, when and when not to defer, etc., and they also aren't getting that inspiration and confidence a great championship leader provides. On the other hand, Dallas NEVER seemed to get phased and frustrated whenever things weren't going there way and had no problem bullying the Heat cause they knew no matter how down they were, they had the confidence to get back in it with knowing that the Heat's leader wasn't going to do anything about it being a big reason for that. Thats why there's a huge difference between what Lebron did and what Wade did in the previous series. Wade was actually still being aggressive, getting to the line, giving his teammates the confidence that at any point he could make a big play, forcing the defense to still have to worry about him, etc. And thats main difference between Lebron's series and all other bad Finals performances from other great players, which is what makes this Finals performance clearly the worst.
And bringing up that he shut down Jason Terry doesn't mean much. Its Jason Terry. Not Kobe Bryant. Thats more of an expectation then a feat. Which is why Jason Terry going off on him the way he did is an embarrassment for someone like him.
tmacattack33
09-18-2012, 08:02 PM
A) Maybe you didn't read my post, because I clearly state there were other factors and even highlight them. For Lebron personally, the Mavs defensive zones, versatility, and aggression played a part in Lebron's struggles. However, Lebron combatted those schemes with passiveness, not the aggression of a two-time MVP. Conversely, Lebron obliterated a similiar defensive structure by the Celtics, due to his uncanny aggression and post game.
B) I mentioned that Terry called Lebron out after Game 4, and that in the proceeding games got the best of him when guarded by Bron. It has nothing to do with "my side," but rather my approach to highlight another instance of Lebron not taking well to aggressive competitiveness from the opposition.
Bron did a very good job on Terry Games 1-3. After that, when the series held in the balance? Not so much.
Also, please don't try and discredit my post as "not concrete." Everything in my posts are "concrete." Ironic that you can categorize my post as baseless, when most of your posts around here are subjective jargon to diminish the successes of Kobe Bryant.
You're one of the more agenda driven posters on ISH, as many could and have attested to. But, my post isn't concrete. Right :rolleyes:
A. Speaking about Dallas's great defense is something on Lebron's side of this argument. I was referring to something concrete on the other side. Specifically about whether or not Lebron hurt his team or just had a neutral effect on many plays.
As i said in another post above, this comes down to whether or not Lebron was either:
1. Drawing in the defense and making a pass to a teammate with ample time on the clock or a teammate who was open
or
2. Dribbling the ball around unsuccessfully against Marion for 10+ seconds and then passing in to a teammate (who was not open) with under 8 or so remaining on the shot clock.
So i was looking for something concrete discussing that. And I don't think anyone would specifically remember that, all they remember is the shots he took and the stats which you can look up, so i am curious and will probably eventually watch those games again.
B. Ok.
BlackVVaves
09-18-2012, 08:59 PM
A. Speaking about Dallas's great defense is something on Lebron's side of this argument. I was referring to something concrete on the other side. Specifically about whether or not Lebron hurt his team or just had a neutral effect on many plays.
As i said in another post above, this comes down to whether or not Lebron was either:
1. Drawing in the defense and making a pass to a teammate with ample time on the clock or a teammate who was open
or
2. Dribbling the ball around unsuccessfully against Marion for 10+ seconds and then passing in to a teammate (who was not open) with under 8 or so remaining on the shot clock.
So i was looking for something concrete discussing that. And I don't think anyone would specifically remember that, all they remember is the shots he took and the stats which you can look up, so i am curious and will probably eventually watch those games again.
B. Ok.
Well, if you read KG215, guy, myself, and a couple other poster's assessment, you'll see that a common theme Lebron perpetuated involved him standing in one corner of the court, while Wade tried to single handedly break the Mavs defense. This was more common in the late stages of games.
Also, just from memory, I recall a couple of possessions towards the end of Games 5 and 6 where Bron passed up shots to the likes of Chalmers and Haslem. Shots he should have taken, or at least drive to the basket and create a high percentage shot for another teammate like he's become notorious for doing. Instead, his demeanor was a shaken one, and he'd pass the ball up and back-track to the three-point line. Maybe that would make sense if Bron was a notable three point shooter, but when has he ever been a consistent enough jump shooter? So, it baffled me, as it did many other viewers of the game, that just witnessed a completely different, focused Lebron cruise through the Eastern Conference playoffs.
Great player, you know? Top 5 All-Time potential. But that Finals showing is definitely a large black mark on his career's resume. You can't say the Heat lost because of a inferior support cast, like Pauk was unbashfully trying to point to, when the best player on the team who regularly scores 30 points in the 3 series before all of a sudden can't even crack 20 points.
When Lebron won this year, he garnished nearly all of the credit, as he deserved. And, conversely, when he lost last year, he received almost all of the blame. Which he deserved.
I don't understand how stan logic is anything but laughable. When Lebron, Kobe, whomever wins, it's all because of them. But when they lose, it's all on everyone else but them.
It doesn't work like that. If you are going to give a great player all of the credit, some of which I'm sure is unwarranted, then be prepared to give him all the blame, some of which I'm sure is unwarranted. Or, you can just be objective in your perspective and elect to distribute the spoils of winning and dooms of losing accordingly, and fairly. You'd think this would be the most plausible option, and yet it's the least taken route.
KG215
09-18-2012, 09:30 PM
A. Speaking about Dallas's great defense is something on Lebron's side of this argument. I was referring to something concrete on the other side. Specifically about whether or not Lebron hurt his team or just had a neutral effect on many plays.
There's some players who, by being passive and timid, can simply have a neutral effect on the team and the outcome of the game. LeBron, however, is not one of those. Him being passive and unwilling at crucial times was detrimental to his team because they rely so much on him being aggressive. That's his role on the team: to drive, facilitate, draw fouls, and score. So when he's standing around on the perimeter and playing hot potato at crucial moments of the game, it has a negative affect.
One thing I'm still semi-critical of with Durant is his tendency to do the same thing. Granted, he doesn't play with the ball in his hands nearly as often as LeBron, and he still averaged 30+ PPG on great efficiency, but there were still times in this playoff run I wanted him to be more aggressive and assert himself. I still want to see him more-or-less go take the damn ball from Westbrook when he gets into one of his "hero ball" stretches (which he did improve on this year) because Durant is just flatout a better and more efficient scorer. Of course it didn't help that in the Finals (specifically) Durant had to get his points in bunches several games due to early foul trouble and spending long stretches on the bench; and it also had to do with how teams were guarding him away from the ball by being aggressive making it hard for him to get to an open spot; but there were other games in earlier rounds that I felt might not have been as close had he asserted himself earlier in the game.
I think Durant tends to do the opposite of what we're being critical of LeBron about, in that he tends to kind of just "be there" the first two or three quarters, before coming alive late in the third and fourth quarter. Not all the time but it is a tendency I picked-up on some over the last two postseasons. One isn't better than the other, but it is what it is. Basketball, more than any other sport, is one that a player's "clutchness" is greatly magnified. If a player is playing like crap through three quarters and he comes out and scores something like 15 points in the fourth and his team wins, people tend to forget what they did in the first three quarters. And, again, that's because more than any other sport, basketball is a game of runs and one great fourth quarter from a player in a relatively close game can be the difference.
It's kind of like Kobe stans saying Kobe was just as good or better than Shaq during the 3-peat because "he was the closer." A basketball game is four quarters and you can't just ignore how good and/or dominant a player was in the first three quarters.
tmacattack33
09-18-2012, 09:45 PM
Well, if you read KG215, guy, myself, and a couple other poster's assessment, you'll see that a common theme Lebron perpetuated involved him standing in one corner of the court, while Wade tried to single handedly break the Mavs defense. This was more common in the late stages of games.
Also, just from memory, I recall a couple of possessions towards the end of Games 5 and 6 where Bron passed up shots to the likes of Chalmers and Haslem. Shots he should have taken, or at least drive to the basket and create a high percentage shot for another teammate like he's become notorious for doing. Instead, his demeanor was a shaken one, and he'd pass the ball up and back-track to the three-point line. Maybe that would make sense if Bron was a notable three point shooter, but when has he ever been a consistent enough jump shooter? So, it baffled me, as it did many other viewers of the game, that just witnessed a completely different, focused Lebron cruise through the Eastern Conference playoffs.
Great player, you know? Top 5 All-Time potential. But that Finals showing is definitely a large black mark on his career's resume. You can't say the Heat lost because of a inferior support cast, like Pauk was unbashfully trying to point to, when the best player on the team who regularly scores 30 points in the 3 series before all of a sudden can't even crack 20 points.
When Lebron won this year, he garnished nearly all of the credit, as he deserved. And, conversely, when he lost last year, he received almost all of the blame. Which he deserved.
I don't understand how stan logic is anything but laughable. When Lebron, Kobe, whomever wins, it's all because of them. But when they lose, it's all on everyone else but them.
It doesn't work like that. If you are going to give a great player all of the credit, some of which I'm sure is unwarranted, then be prepared to give him all the blame, some of which I'm sure is unwarranted. Or, you can just be objective in your perspective and elect to distribute the spoils of winning and dooms of losing accordingly, and fairly. You'd think this would be the most plausible option, and yet it's the least taken route.
Yeah, I can recall a few times where was just standing there and stuff, and some where he would get trapped far from the basket and he'd give the ball up.
If he just gave the ball up (or never received it in the first place), he didn't kill his teams possession. If he dribbled around until the shot clock was down to 8 or lower and then passed, he hurt his team's possession and that's bad.
Lebron being so skilled and yet not using that talent to drive contributes to how stupid it was that he didn't attack. But it has nothing to do with his performance.
If I myself stood there at the three point line while Wade took a jumper on the other end of the court and Lebron did the same exact thing, our performance on that play was exactly the same (ignoring the fact that the defense would have just left me open and he would have forced the defense into having a player guard him). It doesn't matter that he has so much more talent than me and should have used it. That only contributes to a discussion on how stupidly he played.
If I myself stood there at the three point line while Wade took a jumper on the other end of the court and Lebron did the same exact thing, our performance on that play was exactly the same (ignoring the fact that the defense would have just left me open and he would have forced the defense into having a player guard him). It doesn't matter that he has so much more talent than me and should have used it. That only contributes to a discussion on how stupidly he played.
Well if you are not taking into account "standards" and "expectations" at all, then someone like Carl Herrera probably had the worst Finals performance ever, which isn't that interesting to discuss.
ripthekik
09-20-2012, 06:45 AM
It will definitely leave a huge mark on his resume, and this 2011 finals performance will always come to mind when we think of the name Lebron James.
Bigsmoke
09-20-2012, 09:11 AM
ripthekik
This message is hidden because ripthekik is on your ignore list.
i bet its something stupid
DaSeba5
09-20-2012, 12:44 PM
i bet its something stupid
Yup he says people will only remember his name for the 2011 Finals
LBJFTW
09-20-2012, 12:58 PM
There is a difference between going 18/7/7 on 48% with a passive and timid approach Lebron had and going 18/7/7 on 48% with an aggressive and confident approach that Lebron has had in numerous other games he's had in his career. Fact is it frames the tone of the whole game and affects the approach and confidence of his teammates AND his opponents.
Yes
It doesn't work like that. If you are going to give a great player all of the credit, some of which I'm sure is unwarranted, then be prepared to give him all the blame, some of which I'm sure is unwarranted. Or, you can just be objective in your perspective and elect to distribute the spoils of winning and dooms of losing accordingly, and fairly. You'd think this would be the most plausible option, and yet it's the least taken route.
And Yes
Lebron's 2011 Finals performance was the worst of all time and his performance against the Celtics as a Cav in the previous playoff run with 9 turnovers where he looked disinterested was equally as bad.
LA Lakers
09-20-2012, 01:38 PM
KJ 93 Finals
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