Larry Bird is a better passer than Lebron James:

[CavaliersFTW]

Ball passing skill: (note, not the same thing as "point guard abilities")

Magic Johnson
small gap
Larry Bird
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o66NdFDHEQ





Gap






Lebron James.




















This coming from an actual unbiased non Bird / Magic / Lebron homer who studies vintage NBA basketball and watched Lebron his entire career.

[Fudge]

True story

[tmacattack33]

Saying there is a big gap there is pretty ridiculous.

It is pretty much consensus that Lebron has top 5 vision in the game today. And today there are some great PG's and passers in the league.

When talking about the elite, we are talking about the top 20 out of the 10,000 plus NBA players in history. A big gap is likely there between number 17 and number 5,321. It is likely not there between number 3 and number 9.

[CavaliersFTW]

Saying there is a big gap there is pretty ridiculous.

It is pretty much consensus that Lebron has top 5 vision in the game today. And today there are some great PG's and passers in the league.

When talking about the elite, we are talking about the top 20 out of the 10,000 plus NBA players in history. A big gap is likely there between number 17 and number 5,321. It is likely not there between number 3 and number 9.
The drop off after Larry Bird is noticeable. Lebron's court vision is elite and his fundamental passing skill is great but it absolutely is not on the same level as Bird. Watching Larry Bird pass makes you go :wtf: and you have to go back and replay it to see what the hell just happened. Magic Johnson had that effect too, to a slightly even greater degree. Lebron just doesn't have that effect on me. His passes are plain Jane. They are great for putting assists on the stat sheet, but they don't "wow" like Larry Bird.

[BuGzBuNNy]

So the highlight video is the proof?

[TheBigVeto]

Ball passing skill: (note, not the same thing as "point guard abilities")

Steve Nash
BIG gap
Magic Johnson
small gap
Larry Bird
small gap
Lebron James.


FTFY.

[CavaliersFTW]

So the video is the proof?
evidence... there's a difference

[funnystuff]

He's mad Lebron left Cleveland.

[stallionaire]

Cavs fans are so ****ing desperate it's insane. Get over it. He left.

[tmacattack33]

The drop off after Larry Bird is noticeable. Lebron's court vision is elite and his fundamental passing skill is great but it absolutely is not on the same level as Bird. Watching Larry Bird pass makes you go :wtf: and you have to go back and replay it to see what the hell just happened. Magic Johnson had that effect too, to a slightly even greater degree. Lebron just doesn't have that effect on me. His passes are plain Jane. They are great for putting assists on the stat sheet, but they don't "wow" like Larry Bird.


All I know is that not even Nash has a big gap on Lebron today in terms of passing.

And Paul and Deron certainly do not... i think Lebron may be a little ahead of Deron and right at Paul's level. So, unless Bird had a big gap on Nash, then I don't think he had a big gap on Lebron.

[CavaliersFTW]

He's mad Lebron left Cleveland.
Lebron stans and Heat fans always fall back on this when a Cavs fan wants to talk about Lebron - I'ma be the bigger man and say - yes, I was pissed when Lebron left. Over 2 years ago.

[stallionaire]

The case for LBJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8

[CavaliersFTW]

Cavs fans are so ****ing desperate it's insane. Get over it. He left.
says the 2nd greatest Lebron nutrider in ISH'istory :oldlol:

[stallionaire]

Yup. I'm a LeBron nutrider as soon as I call out the fact that you're the biggest baby on the forum when it comes to LBJ leaving your team. Just get over it. IT was 2 years ago!

[Round Mound]

"PURE" Passing...Bird is Better

Lebron is a Better "CREATOR" of Offense cause of his Superior Handles and Driving Ability Athletic Ability too...Causing The Defense to Close On Him...Thereby Leaving Other of His Teamates Open.

[CavaliersFTW]

The case for LBJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8
If Bird never existed Lebron would have a great case as the greatest passing SF of all time.

But Bird did exist and he dished everything Lebron dishes except he has even more dimensions. Such as on the fly bump and tap passes. He has some sort of 6th sense that Lebron lacks to pull them off.

[BuGzBuNNy]

The zip that Lebron regularly puts on the ball is unmatched as far as I'm concerned...his passes "get there", and on target. The value of that can't go unspoken. My favorite passes from him are the one's he throws across the width of the court to someone open that had he not zipped the ball the way he did he wouldn't have looked so wide open because the defender would have had time to get to the guy before the shot.

I can think of one in particular that he threw to James Jones in the corner in that Christmas game vs LA even though he missed the shot, but I can't find it. Here's an example in the video that someone else linked in this thread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8&t=0m25s

[inclinerator]

watch the olympics, lebron was the best passer on that team.
for me bird and lebron are pretty close

[G-train]

If Bird never existed Lebron would have a great case as the greatest passing SF of all time.

But Bird did exist and he dished everything Lebron dishes except he has even more dimensions. Such as on the fly bump and tap passes. He has some sort of 6th sense that Lebron lacks to pull them off.

I've seen Lebron complete those passes regularly.

People don't realise they are watching one of the all time greats playing, and one of his key skills is passing. There is no gap between him and Larry Bird, and at the end of his career I think it will be obvious that Lebron was the better passer.

[funnystuff]

Lebron stans and Heat fans always fall back on this when a Cavs fan wants to talk about Lebron - I'ma be the bigger man and say - yes, I am pissed Lebron left. Over 2 years ago.
Fixed.

[Bandito]

Yup. I'm a LeBron nutrider as soon as I call out the fact that you're the biggest baby on the forum when it comes to LBJ leaving your team. Just get over it. IT was 2 years ago!
you're mad because somebody call you a lebron Stan? Really? I didn't know you were in denial bub...


PURE" Passing...Bird is Better

Lebron is a Better "CREATOR" of Offense cause of his Superior Handles and Driving Ability Athletic Ability too...Causing The Defense to Close On Him...Thereby Leaving Other of His Teamates Open.yeah that's pretty much my opinion on LJvs Larry too.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yes he clearly is but I wouldn't say that there's a big gap. Bird's the best passing non-guard, LeBron's comes after, actually he plays many times like a PG unlike Bird so...

They're about equal in court vision, LeBron's has better handles but Bird's the better passer.

Adding to that vid on the OP also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTI-Cmkp87A

[SHAQisGOAT]

I've seen Lebron complete those passes regularly.

People don't realise they are watching one of the all time greats playing, and one of his key skills is passing. There is no gap between him and Larry Bird, and at the end of his career I think it will be obvious that Lebron was the better passer.

I don't care about end of career and stats provide info but don't mean all that, Bird's better skilled as a passer.

[oolalaa]

Completely agree. Lebron spreads the floor better, but no forward in NBA history dished out more 'guaranteed bucket passes' than Larry Legend.

[Papaya Petee]

You're unbiased yet your username is "CavaliersFTW" I bet!

[pauk]

Thought you would come with any rational, objective and factual data to that statement.... you didnt... another empty opinion triggered by facts and discust for something which proves your biased feeling towards a player WRONG....

...and please spare me the "bias" accusation, the only one who seem biased here is you based on the context of your post... please also spare me the vintage game excuse, i have probably seen more vintage games and possess more vintage games specifically from Larry Bird and 80s and then 90s than you... I have over 100 games on vhs/dvd and divx/xvid with Larry Bird, who is one of my top 3 favorite players of all time...

If anything thats exactly why you could be biased, your feelings towards oldschool may give your the priority due to nostalgia (i doubt you are that old) and disrespect for great basketball that is right infront of your eyes...

[LEFT4DEAD]

Pauk is better poster than you! Just sayin'.

[brownmamba00]

true

larry legend gets underrated like no other here

[Mr Exlax]

Damn I didn't know Larry Bird was a good passer let alone that good of a passer. I actually learned something on ISH today.

[pegasus]

Damn I didn't know Larry Bird was a good passer let alone that good of a passer. I actually learned something on ISH today.
Good, now go watch some videos to validate it.

Bird's passing >> Lebron's. Even pauk knows that.

[Kblaze8855]

Yes. Yes he was.

[tommy3]

How do you objectively compare two players' passing abilities?

[LeBird]

Yeh, he was that much better. They have similar assist stats, but Bird never carried the ball as much as Lebron (who often acts as a PG). Then you watch them play and you can visibly see one guy is even a level above most great passers. As someone else here mentioned; you won't see someone give you as many 'guaranteed buckets' as Bird did - Magic the exception.

[LeBird]

Damn I didn't know Larry Bird was a good passer let alone that good of a passer. I actually learned something on ISH today.

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flT88MH8hAM) one; greatest Bird video on Youtube IMO.

[IGOTGAME]

Ricky Rubio is a better passer than Bron too.

Also people are using a very narrow definition of passing. If you factor in all the things that help create angles for passing such as ball handling it is a lot closer. Seems like OP is fitting the definition to make Bird seem like a much much better passer.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flT88MH8hAM) one; greatest Bird video on Youtube IMO.

That one's great and with great quality but this one's better IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqZKSlrGfx8

[KG215]

Did I really see pauk call out someone for being biased? Did that really happen?

pauk, how'd you do it while keeping a straight face?

[LeBird]

That one's great and with great quality but this one's better IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqZKSlrGfx8

Cheers.

[97 bulls]

How do you objectively compare two players' passing abilities?
My sentiments exactly. I think its judging based on who was more flashy.

[BuGzBuNNy]

For the record, isn't the creativity/flashy argument as null as the argument that Kobe's shot styles make him a better player than he is (because two points are two points :: an assist is an assist)? ..if that makes sense.

[longtime lurker]

File this under the Duh category. This is pretty much a given

[jongib369]

What do you think of Cousy's passing? And how much footage of him do you have?\

Also, IMO Bird is the better passer. Although Lebron is GREAT and is up there, he just doesn't seem to be able to do the things Bird could. Just imagine if you put Birds mind in Lebron

[plowking]

The snap Lebron gets on his passes is unrivaled in NBA history. The ball flies like a rocket.

I don't think Bird is a better passer than Lebron, and I don't think he is worse. They're different. Larry is more flashy, will pull off some WTF stuff, while Lebron is more direct and better at finding the open man.

[TheBigVeto]

true

larry legend gets underrated like no other here

Well, dude is white, what do you expect?

[pauk]

The snap Lebron gets on his passes is unrivaled in NBA history. The ball flies like a rocket.

I don't think Bird is a better passer than Lebron, and I don't think he is worse. They're different. Larry is more flashy, will pull off some WTF stuff, while Lebron is more direct and better at finding the open man.

Quickly delete your post before you get insulted and accused of multiple accounts, this is no place for cultivated minds. Larry Bird was once the best non-PG passer ever and so... it can never change... accept it no matter who comes later and shows himself to be an even better passer and you will be fine in this forum and looked upon as a "great non-biased poster".....

[RRR3]

Quickly delete your post before you get insulted and accused of multiple accounts, this is no place for cultivated minds. Larry Bird was once the best non-PG passer ever and so... it can never change... accept it no matter who comes later and shows himself to be an even better passer and you will be fine in this forum and looked upon as a "great non-biased poster".....
talk about butthurt

[pauk]

talk about butthurt

You are right, why do i even care anymore... but it is the truth, just giving the guy a heads up... being a non cynic of Lebrons abilities in a Lebron cynic infested forum is a dangerous game, even you should know that RRR3 as you have been dogged even more than me by those people, calling me "butthurt" all of the sudden desperately trying to lean on their good side wont help you...

[LakersReign]

Quickly delete your post before you get insulted and accused of multiple accounts, this is no place for cultivated minds. Larry Bird was once the best non-PG passer ever and so... it can never change... accept it no matter who comes later and shows himself to be an even better passer and you will be fine in this forum and looked upon as a "great non-biased poster".....


:confusedshrug:

I love Wade & Bosh... but i keep hearing many say they are superstars...

One averaged 14-7... basically Horace Grant numbers, minus the defense...

The other played only like a random 22 ppg all-star SG, if he played like a superstar then what do we consider somebody like Westbrook? MEGASTAR?

To call a player a superstar based on name value is absolutely stupefying when there is no abundant superstar production...

The only one who played like a superstar in Miami was Lebron... they go as far as only he can take them...http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268863

The "cultivated minds" he's(pauk) referring to. Insinuating that Lebron won the Heat's 2012 title all by himself, since Wade/Bosh didn't have superstar numbers in the postseason. Keeping in mind, Lebron didn't win sh*t til his SECOND YEAR in Miami. But now that's he's won....he supposedly did it all by himself:rolleyes:

[pauk]

LakersReign

This message is hidden because LakersReign is on your ignore list.

Let me guess, another immature & insulting comment about..... me...

[LakersReign]

Let me guess. The old "you're on my "ignore list," but I'm(pauk) STILL going to respond to your posts anyway" lie, cuz I struck a nerve(pauk)?:sleeping

Oh and by the way, thanks for calling your own thread, immature. Not that we didn't already know that:lol

[StateOfMind12]

Bird was probably a better passer but it isn't that big of a difference so when comparing the two it shouldn't matter much.

[Round Mound]

Larry was a Better Passer. Get Real!

Lebron a Better Ball Handler and Offense Creator...Which Leads to More Passing Oportunities when he Drived to The Basket (like Jordan when he averaged 8 apg).

But as a "Pure Passer" :no: Better than Bird... "Who Was a Genious Passer"

[Riley Martin]

Quickly delete your post before you get insulted and accused of multiple accounts, this is no place for cultivated minds. Larry Bird was once the best non-PG passer ever and so... it can never change... accept it no matter who comes later and shows himself to be an even better passer and you will be fine in this forum and looked upon as a "great non-biased poster".....

What plowking said is reasonable. That they're neither better nor worse at passing; simply different. (Not that I agree. I think Bird was the better passer by a big enough margin.)

What you said, well, isn't. You cited a bunch of random stats about APG and highlights to claim that LeBron is definitively the better passer, and that anyone who disagrees is just a big, dumb, stupid LeBron-hating idiot person. You can't really measure comparative passing ability quantitatively. The two players are close enough as passers to warrant a debate, but to say "Player X is better! Look, facts!" is simply wrong.

[dunksby]

As I said it in the other thread, a ball dominant player like LeBron will obviously have better assist numbers. The fact that Bird averaged 6.3/6.5 assists in regular season and playoffs respectively without dominating the ball like a PG as opposed to LeBron's 6.9/6.7 shows how much of a better passer he is.

[LA Lakers]

Ill agree with the premise of this thread. Larry Legend outdid almost everyone but the great Magic when it came to the art of passing and finding guys for open baskets. Dude took creating offense for those Celtics teams to a whole different level.

[Kblaze8855]

When the issue of assists between them is raised I have to wonder if people are even watching Bird play. I dont mean if they are old enough....I mean just...watching clips.

In the 80s everyone in the league other than former ABA players...they didnt grow up with a 3 point line. So you drive...you take midrange shots. Now....teams with a star swingman seek to surround him with shooters. So a Lebron type has Chalmers, James Jones, Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Mike Miller, Mo Williams, Damon Jones, Delonte, and on and on....

Larry Bird played with guys who were shooters in that...they can wet an open 15 footer. Dude Jerry *not trying to spell his last name* I remember was automatic. But hes not an assist generating shooter. Ainge could shoot. But hes not standing in a corner shooting arm cocked for 12 seconds while the star dribbles like shooters today are.

Modern systems turn drive and kick players who play into it into assist machines. Bird was getting assists throwing balls right on point in traffic. Tapping rebounds where they needed to be. Catching people off guard and getting teammates dunks.

He wasnt going with 3 shooters with no reason to dribble waiting for him to drop it off. why would he have a gang of assists?

Nobody stacks assists feeding the post and making clever reads like he did. You stack assists when the system is designed to allow it. Pick and roll points. drive and kick swingmen. All out running teams that try to score on the break at every chance with one or two guys designated to lead it.

He would have made the team worse if he tried to get assists the way Lebron does. Which is why the numbers dont matter.

He never got 11 assists like Michael Adams did in Denver. Michael Adams wouldnt do it on 98% of teams that ever existed. Means nothing in comparison to Bird or Lebron. I remember Michael Adams. Dude wasnt that good. Neither was Damon Jones on the Bucks doing crazy assists for his PT.

They just stacked assists. Not the same as great passing. One does not measure the other.

[SHAQisGOAT]

When the issue of assists between them is raised I have to wonder if people are even watching Bird play. I dont mean if they are old enough....I mean just...watching clips.

In the 80s everyone in the league other than former ABA players...they didnt grow up with a 3 point line. So you drive...you take midrange shots. Now....teams with a star swingman seek to surround him with shooters. So a Lebron type has Chalmers, James Jones, Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Mike Miller, Mo Williams, Damon Jones, Delonte, and on and on....

Larry Bird played with guys who were shooters in that...they can wet an open 15 footer. Dude Jerry *not trying to spell his last name* I remember was automatic. But hes not an assist generating shooter. Ainge could shoot. But hes not standing in a corner shooting arm cocked for 12 seconds while the star dribbles like shooters today are.

Modern systems turn drive and kick players who play into it into assist machines. Bird was getting assists throwing balls right on point in traffic. Tapping rebounds where they needed to be. Catching people off guard and getting teammates dunks.

He wasnt going with 3 shooters with no reason to dribble waiting for him to drop it off. why would he have a gang of assists?

Nobody stacks assists feeding the post and making clever reads like he did. You stack assists when the system is designed to allow it. Pick and roll points. drive and kick swingmen. All out running teams that try to score on the break at every chance with one or two guys designated to lead it.

He would have made the team worse if he tried to get assists the way Lebron does. Which is why the numbers dont matter.

He never got 11 assists like Michael Adams did in Denver. Michael Adams wouldnt do it on 98% of teams that ever existed. Means nothing in comparison to Bird or Lebron. I remember Michael Adams. Dude wasnt that good. Neither was Damon Jones on the Bucks doing crazy assists for his PT.

They just stacked assists. Not the same as great passing. One does not measure the other.

:applause:

[Asukal]

Pauk ethered for the millionth time. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Segatti]

It is pretty much consensus that Lebron has top 5 vision in the game today.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :roll:

[IGOTGAME]

Ill agree with the premise of this thread. Larry Legend outdid almost everyone but the great Magic when it came to the art of passing and finding guys for open baskets. Dude took creating offense for those Celtics teams to a whole different level.
If you are gonna include great pgs than that is absurd.

[kNicKz]

There's no shame in being worse than Larry Bird bro, damn :roll:

[TheBigVeto]

If you are gonna include great pgs than that is absurd.

Spoken like a true Lakertard.

[Mach_3]

If you are gonna include great pgs than that is absurd.

Watch some games of prime (hell not even) Bird, you realize that no...it really isn't absurd

[LBJFTW]

Wow, the only responses I expected out of this thread was a "yes".

Bird's passing was better, and the gap was noticeable. If that makes you upset, your either a bias Bron homer or haven't watched enough tape/live games. Nothing wrong with being under Bird.

[IGOTGAME]

Watch some games of prime (hell not even) Bird, you realize that no...it really isn't absurd
Sorry but Bird did not desperate himself from very pg that ever played besides Magic...this is absurd. Have some perspective.

[CavaliersFTW]

Sorry but Bird dis not desperate himself from very pig that ever played besides Magic...this is absurd. Have some perspective.
I'm in need of a translator here, is this what u meant?: "Sorry but Bird did not separate himself from every PG that ever played besides Magic..."?

[IGOTGAME]

I'm in need of a translator here, is this what u meant?: "Sorry but Bird did not separate himself from every PG that ever played besides Magic..."?
Yea, my bad. My tablet changes tons of stuff.

[SHAQisGOAT]

If you are gonna include great pgs than that is absurd.

Not at all, only Magic, Stock are above clearly imo (still not a big gap at all) and only few others have a case against him, remember the guy never handled the ball as much as a PG or a guy like 'Bron that plays PG many times. Put his passing ability on a PG with great handles, speed, etc., and you have a player averaging easily more than 10 APG, actually, if you gave Bird more speed and lateral quickness, let him play PG and you see a guy with assist numbers close to guys like Magic and Stock.

[SHAQisGOAT]

There's no shame in being worse than Larry Bird bro, damn :roll:

Really! LeBron's a really great passer, just because Bird's a better one, LeBron's fans don't need to get all in a frenzy.

[IGOTGAME]

Not at all, only Magic, Stock are above clearly imo (still not a big gap at all) and only few others have a case against him, remember the guy never handled the ball as much as a PG or a guy like 'Bron that plays PG many times. Put his passing ability on a PG with great handles, speed, etc., and you have a player averaging easily more than 10 APG, actually, if you gave Bird more speed and lateral quickness, let him play PG and you see a guy with assist numbers close to guys like Magic and Stock.
Guys like Kidd and Nash are better passers. This is true no matter how you want to define passing.

Btw...this narrow definition of passing is stupid. Pretty much boils down to passing from a standstill or rebound etc. BC ball handling has to be taking out the equation. Btw...everyone knows one of the most important things youlearn as a passer is to create angles. Seems self serving that people are trying factor out athletism and that ability when determing who is a better passing.

This is starting to remind me of the shooting debate that often comes down to standstill shooters vs. Dynamic players who can make more shots.

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm in need of a translator here, is this what u meant?: "Sorry but Bird did not separate himself from every PG that ever played besides Magic..."?
Will the elusive coward who decided to neg my above comment with this unfunny threat please step forward?

Ku postin in this forum. You are an arrogant prick. I'll **** you up in real life.

[IGOTGAME]

Will the elusive coward who decided to neg my above comment with this unfunny threat please step forward?
Wasn't me. I rarely engage is rep. Never given a net before.

[TheBigVeto]

Really! LeBron's a really great passer, just because Bird's a better one, LeBron's fans don't need to get all in a frenzy.

This.
It's one thing if people say Kobe is a better passer than Lebron - that is crazy talk for sure.
But Bird or Magic (as much as I think he's overrated) are better passers than Lebron.

[tmacattack33]

I can't say I've watched Bird or Magic, but since Lebron is a top 3 or top 5 passer today, with no big gap between him and Nash or between him and CP3/Deron (who he proved to be the better facilitator compared to when these three were on the same team in the Olympics), I'm having a hard time believing the gap between him and Bird would be big as well.

Unless, of course, those of you who say there is a definite gap between Bird and Lebron would also say there is a definite gap between Bird and Nash/CP3.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Guys like Kidd and Nash are better passers. This is true no matter how you want to define passing.

Btw...this narrow definition of passing is stupid. Pretty much boils down to passing from a standstill or rebound etc. BC ball handling has to be taking out the equation. Btw...everyone knows one of the most important things youlearn as a passer is to create angles. Seems self serving that people are trying factor out athletism and that ability when determing who is a better passing.

This is starting to remind me of the shooting debate that often comes down to standstill shooters vs. Dynamic players who can make more shots.

They have strong cases but Bird also has a case against them.

What? I'm taking ball-handling out of the equation? Bird was a pretty good ball-handler. I'm saying is that a guy playing PG spends much more time with the ball in his hands, has a chance of averaging more assists than all the other players.
I was saying that Bird didn't have the speed and lateral quickness to play PG, even Magic, at almost 6'9, couldn't guard fast PG's, they had Cooper or Scott mostly on them. Still with that help on D he was able to play PG on O, unlike Bird like I've said. Plus Bird also always played with good PG's/passers, in Tiny, DJ, Ainge, Henderson, even a guy like Walton. At most Larry was playing the point forward role

Also don't forget Bird was also putting major scoring numbers, he could average like 29 PPG and 7 APG. Guys like Magic, Nash, Kidd, Stock... weren't putting those scoring numbers, not that they had a role of big scorers though, but still Bird had those numbers and didn't have the ball in his hand as much time as guys like LeBron.