Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

[fpliii]

Who do you think was better, and why?

[Kews1]

Id take Pippen, but as of right now i dont have any stats/facts to back me up :lol

[StateOfMind12]

Scottie, and it really isn't close. Havlicek is quite overrated. People for whatever reason have him in the top 20-25 range but he should honestly be in the 30-35 range.

[KOBE143]

Pippen

Best perimeter defender of all time.. One of the best all around player that ever play the game of basketball.. Absolutely no weakness at all..

[bizil]

Career wise, HONDO. Peak wise HONDO! Pip was a beast and frankly combined traits of Hondo with the size and freakish athletic ability of Dr.J. But I think Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. While also being a point forward type, great defender, and great rebounder for a SF. Hondo was in my book the first EPIC ALL AROUND SF in terms of being a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder, and great defender all in one. He set the tone that guys like Pip, Hill, and Bron would follow later. And considering he was 6'5 or 6'6 and a swingman, he even sort of set the tone for bigger SG's like MJ, Kobe, and Drexler in that regard as well.

[jongib369]

Career wise, HONDO. Peak wise HONDO! Pip was a beast and frankly combined traits of Hondo with the size and freakish athletic ability of Dr.J. But I think Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. While also being a point forward type, great defender, and great rebounder for a SF. Hondo was in my book the first EPIC ALL AROUND SF in terms of being a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder, and great defender all in one. He set the tone that guys like Pip, Hill, and Bron would follow later. And considering he was 6'5 or 6'6 and a swingman, he even sort of set the tone for bigger SG's like MJ, Kobe, and Drexler in that regard as well.
Just to say if he was being listed today it'd be more like 6'7 or 6'8

[TheBigVeto]

Havlicek.

[bizil]

Just to say if he was being listed today it'd be more like 6'7 or 6'8

Yes he would indeed. The heights back in the day were more legit than today. In comparison to other legendary SF's in the 60's and 70's like Barry or a SF-PF type like Baylor or Hawkins, Hondo just seemed to have the total package on both sides of the court to standout. Not saying peak value wise he's better than them, but his career resume is what vaults Hondo past them in that top 3-4 GOAT SF realm.

[1987_Lakers]

Havlicek was never really an alpha dog, he just had crazy longevity. I'll take a peak Rick Barry or Walt Frazier over Hondo anyday & some might not know this, but Dave Cowens was actually Boston's best player during those two championship seasons in the 70's.

As far Hondo vs Pippen... I really don't know. They are in the same category, but I would want Pippen on my team.

[LAClipsFan33]

Havlicek was never really an alpha dog

1974

[1987_Lakers]

1974

Cowens > Havlicek in 1974.

[bizil]

Havlicek was never really an alpha dog, he just had crazy longevity. I'll take a peak Rick Barry or Walt Frazier over Hondo anyday & some might not know this, but Dave Cowens was actually Boston's best player during those two championship seasons in the 70's.

As far Hondo vs Pippen... I really don't know. They are in the same category, but I would want Pippen on my team.

Hondo's career resume dictates that he's rated over Barry or Frazier GOAT wise. Now peak value wise is a different argument. In terms of being an alpha dog, I feel Hondo was indeed an alpha dog. He just wasn't on the level of Barry or Baylor that came before him in that regard. Or later Bird or Dr. J If u racking up 28.9 points in season as well as 27.5 points, then u gotta have alpha dog stuff. Hondo was MUCH more of an alpha dog than Pip ever was that's for sure.

It's common knowledge Big Dave was the man in the 70's. Hondo, while still an elite SF, was on the downside of his career. I think it was pretty common knowledge who the number one guy was. But still, Hondo was the leading scorer on that '74 title team.

When comparing players in different eras, ultimately it can be hard. But I feel Hondo dominated his era more than Pippen did on an individual level. U had many legendary SF's, swingmen, or SF-PF type players in Hondo's era. His total all around skills combined with his scoring made him standout. In terms of peak value, I would take Baylor and Barry over Hondo SF wise. U even had guys like Hawkins and Cunnigham who were awesome. But it's Hondo's resume that vaults him past all these SF's GOAT wise.

[1987_Lakers]

If u racking up 28.9 points in season as well as 27.5 points, then u gotta have alpha dog stuff.

He played 45 MPG & was on a team that played at a much faster pace than a normal team in today's NBA. Not saying that averaging 28 ppg isn't impressive because it is, just saying it is not as impressive as the numbers suggest. Overall, Hondo was never really an elite scorer.

I do agree with you that Hondo did dominate his era more than Pippen did to his era and that might make me rank Hondo ahead of Pippen on an all-time list, but I still would rather have Pippen on my team.

[chains5000]

60% of ISH posters never watched Pippen play (forget about Havlicek).

[Patrick Chewing]

Scottie, and it really isn't close. Havlicek is quite overrated. People for whatever reason have him in the top 20-25 range but he should honestly be in the 30-35 range.


Big difference :rolleyes:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Close but Hondo

[nycelt84]

Havlicek was the best player on 4 title teams which were the 68,69,74, and 76 Celtics. He was one of the best defenders at his position annually and a better scorer than Pippen with better longevity. In the early 70's a lot of people felt he was the best all-around player in the league as Havlicek could do just about anything on the court. And for those who like to talk rings well 8>6.

[scandisk_]

Scottie Pippen :pimp:

[Raz]

60% of ISH posters never watched Pippen play (forget about Havlicek).

Exactly. And if you asked this question in 2002, everyone would have said Havlicek. Pippen is becoming very overrated by a generation of posters that live on hearsay and youtube highlights.

John Havlicek was a better version of Scottie Pippen before Pippen ever existed. The fact that threads like this exist really piss me off. Hondo is becoming over-looked, as are other stars pre-1990. I'm not meaning to detract from Scottie, but he really only had a short peak, and never dominated offensively to the extent that Havlicek did. Havlicek was seen as one of the best wing defenders ever, and was an NBA ironman in terms of games played, and minutes played. His longevity is impressive as well. As a 36 year old, he averaged 17.7ppg, 4.8rpg, 5.1apg. He and the ageing Celtics took Dr J's 76ers to 7 games, 1 game away from the ECF.

Havlicek won titles in different eras, as the number 2, and as the number 1 in 1974 (don't listen to 87 Lakers - Hondo was clearly the lead dog. Stats back it up with the fact that he led the team in PER, WS, and he was the finals MVP).

Pippen has no individual awards to his name other than an All-Star MVP, and was never a top dog on a championship team - also consider how weak the east was in 1993-94.

[Raz]

Id take Pippen, but as of right now i dont have any stats/facts to back me up :lol

Damn, how can you call yourself a Celtics fan and take Pippen? I swear fans these days are getting stupider.

[ILLsmak]

Damn, how can you call yourself a Celtics fan and take Pippen? I swear fans these days are getting stupider.

Pippen was a monster c'monson.

-Smak

[oolalaa]

Havlicek was the best player on 4 title teams which were the 68,69,74, and 76 Celtics. He was one of the best defenders at his position annually and a better scorer than Pippen with better longevity. In the early 70's a lot of people felt he was the best all-around player in the league as Havlicek could do just about anything on the court. And for those who like to talk rings well 8>6.

Well the bolded is just flat out wrong. He was the best player on exactly one title team ('69), with one being debatable ('74). Russ was still the best in '68, and Cowens in '76.

But you're right about scoring. Hondo was a significantly better scorer than Pip because his jumper was much more consistent. He could be a go to guy in crunch time when you needed a bucket. Pippen was better defensively and a better rebounder.

Ultimately, they deserve to be pretty close in any GOAT rankings, but I would certainly take Hondo.

[swi7ch]

Pippen

I've never seen Havlicek play and I haven't seen Havlicek play against the types of players Pippen faced.

[fpliii]

Exactly. And if you asked this question in 2002, everyone would have said Havlicek. Pippen is becoming very overrated by a generation of posters that live on hearsay and youtube highlights.

John Havlicek was a better version of Scottie Pippen before Pippen ever existed. The fact that threads like this exist really piss me off. Hondo is becoming over-looked, as are other stars pre-1990. I'm not meaning to detract from Scottie, but he really only had a short peak, and never dominated offensively to the extent that Havlicek did. Havlicek was seen as one of the best wing defenders ever, and was an NBA ironman in terms of games played, and minutes played. His longevity is impressive as well. As a 36 year old, he averaged 17.7ppg, 4.8rpg, 5.1apg. He and the ageing Celtics took Dr J's 76ers to 7 games, 1 game away from the ECF.

Havlicek won titles in different eras, as the number 2, and as the number 1 in 1974 (don't listen to 87 Lakers - Hondo was clearly the lead dog. Stats back it up with the fact that he led the team in PER, WS, and he was the finals MVP).

Pippen has no individual awards to his name other than an All-Star MVP, and was never a top dog on a championship team - also consider how weak the east was in 1993-94.

Isn't that a bit extreme? One guy doesn't completely outclass the other (even though I'd go Havlicek without much hesitation), so the conversation shouldn't be that bad.

[SHAQisGOAT]

But you're right about scoring. Hondo was a significantly better scorer than Pip because his jumper was much more consistent. He could be a go to guy in crunch time when you needed a bucket. Pippen was better defensively and a better rebounder.

Ultimately, they deserve to be pretty close in any GOAT rankings, but I would certainly take Hondo.

Pip was better defensively but not by much like some may think, Hondo was also an amazing defensive player. Passing and rebounding Pip is also a bit above and yes Hondo was the better scorer and more clutch.

[Patrick Chewing]

Pippen

I've never seen Havlicek play and I haven't seen Havlicek play against the types of players Pippen faced.

negged

[swi7ch]

negged

negged

[LBJFTW]

I've never seen John Havlicek play, so I can't comment. What's sad is that most of the posters haven't even seen Hornacek play, let alone Havlicek. LOL @ people not in their 40's commenting on this.

[Raz]

Isn't that a bit extreme? One guy doesn't completely outclass the other (even though I'd go Havlicek without much hesitation), so the conversation shouldn't be that bad.

Yes the conversation is that bad.

It would be like me trying to convince people that Manu Ginobili should be ranked above Clyde Drexler. There is a significant gap.

I'm not talking about transferring each other to different decades, Pippen was extremely athletic and he would wreck havoc in the 60's and 70's.

And to the people saying Pippen was the better rebounder and passer, are you aware that Hondo averaged 9rpg and 7.5apg in the same season to go with his 28.9ppg. This is the list of players to put up stats like that:
Hondo is a beast (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=28&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=9&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=7&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws)

He was basically the GOAT wing defender before Pippen, and he set the bench mark for all big wing players.

The over-appreciation for Scottie Pippen is horrible. He had such a short peak, and Havlicek dominated over two decades.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yes the conversation is that bad.

It would be like me trying to convince people that Manu Ginobili should be ranked above Clyde Drexler. There is a significant gap.

I'm not talking about transferring each other to different decades, Pippen was extremely athletic and he would wreck havoc in the 60's and 70's.

And to the people saying Pippen was the better rebounder and passer, are you aware that Hondo averaged 9rpg and 7.5apg in the same season to go with his 28.9ppg. This is the list of players to put up stats like that:
Hondo is a beast (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=28&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=9&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=7&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws)

He was basically the GOAT wing defender before Pippen, and he set the bench mark for all big wing players.

The over-appreciation for Scottie Pippen is horrible. He had such a short peak, and Havlicek dominated over two decades.
Let's not exaggerate. Even if you plucked him from the 90's Pippen wouldn't end up wreaking any more havoc than a player like say, Gus Johnson. Pippen doesn't offer any more than Gus aside from passing. He was even considered the best all-around defender at that time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPtBV4TsdU

And yet a player like Havlicek was still considered better.

[D.J.]

Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.

[Raz]

Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.

And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers. He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation, was a number one option on offense, got players involved at a better rate than Pippen, and he could actually shoot consistently.

Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.

[D.J.]

And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers.


In much more playing time. He had back to back seasons playing 45 MPG and had 5 straight seasons playing over 40 MPG. Pippen as a Bull never played in more than 38.6 MPG.



He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation


Of his generation, but Pippen is the best perimeter defender EVER.



was a number one option on offense


No one was an option ahead of Mike. And who do you think was the #1 option when Mike left? Sure wasn't Horace Grant or B.J. Armstrong.



got players involved at a better rate than Pippen


Multiple players on the '94 Bulls had career years with Pippen leading the way.



and he could actually shoot consistently.


Such a consistent shooter he shot less than 44% for his career and only 45-46% in his prime. Pippen shot 49% in '94 and never less than 46% until '98. He's also a career 47% shooter.



Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.


Again, we don't penalize Pippen because he played with Jordan. And we saw what he could do as the #1 option.

[oolalaa]

negged

negged

Negged :pimp:

Just kidding.

[Raz]

In much more playing time. He had back to back seasons playing 45 MPG and had 5 straight seasons playing over 40 MPG. Pippen as a Bull never played in more than 38.6 MPG.

So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.



Of his generation, but Pippen is the best perimeter defender EVER.

I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.



No one was an option ahead of Mike. And who do you think was the #1 option when Mike left? Sure wasn't Horace Grant or B.J. Armstrong.

So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?



Multiple players on the '94 Bulls had career years with Pippen leading the way.

The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.



Such a consistent shooter he shot less than 44% for his career and only 45-46% in his prime. Pippen shot 49% in '94 and never less than 46% until '98. He's also a career 47% shooter.

Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.



Again, we don't penalize Pippen because he played with Jordan. And we saw what he could do as the #1 option.

As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.

[D.J.]

So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.


You lost all credibility when you called Pippen's career shittier.



I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.


He is the GOAT perimeter defender. That's not debatable.



So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?


Because he had other responsibilities. He had to take an even larger role on D and had to set up for his teammates. 22 PPG considering he had larger responsibilities in other areas is pretty damn good. He was averaging just under 9 RPG, almost 6 APG, and 3 SPG. How many points did you expect from him, 30?



The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.


Or the fact that Pippen played a large role in guys like Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong having career years. Not to mention Armstrong was an All-Star, deservedly or not.



Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.


He did start shooting threes on a somewhat consistent basis until '95. And during the first 3-peat, he very seldom shot threes.



As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.


Bring Havlicek down to 36-37 MPG and we'll see how his output looks.

[ILLsmak]

Let's not exaggerate. Even if you plucked him from the 90's Pippen wouldn't end up wreaking any more havoc than a player like say, Gus Johnson. Pippen doesn't offer any more than Gus aside from passing. He was even considered the best all-around defender at that time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPtBV4TsdU

And yet a player like Havlicek was still considered better.

That and maybe 10 inches in vert. lol

-Smak

[Raz]

You lost all credibility when you called Pippen's career shittier.


How is it not? Where is Pippen's finals MVP? Where is Pippen's championship without Jordan?

Hondo won with Russell, who is Jordan's caliber. He also won with Dave Cowens. Pippen couldn't win with Olajuwon and Barkley or those stacked Blazers teams. He had prime Bob Sura like numbers on those Blazer teams, and you want to compare him to Havlicek?

Stupid.



He is the GOAT perimeter defender. That's not debatable.

You're stating your opinion as fact. Bring some evidence.
Pippen "shutting down" Grant Hill (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=hillgr01)
Pippen "shutting down" Chris Mullin - take note of the match-ups pre-Indiana Pacers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=mullich01)
Pippen "shutting down" Nique (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=wilkido01)
Pippen "shutting down" Larry Bird (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=birdla01)
Pippen "shutting down" Glenn Robinson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=robingl01)
Even Ceballos averaged over 20ppg per 36 minutes on Pippen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=cebalce01)

The only player I could find that Pippen actually limited was Glen Rice. WOW!



Because he had other responsibilities. He had to take an even larger role on D and had to set up for his teammates. 22 PPG considering he had larger responsibilities in other areas is pretty damn good. He was averaging just under 9 RPG, almost 6 APG, and 3 SPG. How many points did you expect from him, 30?

So he wasn't as well-rounded and dominant as Havlicek. Hondo could do it all. I guess Pippen couldn't. I would expect a player like Pippen, held in such high regard, would average at least 25ppg without MJ. He didn't come close.




Or the fact that Pippen played a large role in guys like Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong having career years. Not to mention Armstrong was an All-Star, deservedly or not.

So it's not on those players being in their respective primes? Grant had basically the same stats with Penny and Shaq. If they played better it wasn't because of Pippen, it was because they had more opportunity to shine without Jordan around.



He did start shooting threes on a somewhat consistent basis until '95. And during the first 3-peat, he very seldom shot threes.

Obviously, you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Havlicek took some long jumpers, and they were not accredited as 3 pointers, because they didn't exist. They also didn't call ticky tack fouls in the 60's and 70's, meaning you could get fouled on jumpers and nothing would be called. The floor was also crammed due to a lack of spacing from having no 3 point line.



Bring Havlicek down to 36-37 MPG and we'll see how his output looks.


Why should he be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen was unable to play such large minutes, it was unheard of for a player to average 45 mpg in the 90's.

[guy]

Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game.

I hope this is just a huge exaggeration and not something you actually believe.

[CavaliersFTW]

That and maybe 10 inches in vert. lol

-Smak
Pippen doesn't have "10 inches of vert." on Gus lol, if anything he's got a few inches less (that he makes up for in wingspan and reach).

[Raz]

I hope this is just a huge exaggeration and not something you actually believe.

He's stupid. Forgive him.

[97 bulls]

So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.
Pippen did have a prime that went from about 90-98. That's nine seasons. And consider this. You call hondo an ironman? Pippen rarely had a decent off season where rest is concerned. He spent the 90, and 94 seasons rehabbing from offseason surgery. Played in the olypics in 92 and 96. And his teams always went deep into the playoffs.


I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.




So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?
He had to exert a lot of energy on defense. As well as run the team. If Pippen avg 45 minutes a night, in 94, he'd be pushing 28 ppg too. Along with 11 rebounds, and 8 assists.



The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.
neither grant nor armstrong was ever able to duplicate their 94 season. Even Kukoc shot above 50% in 95 without Jordan. And could repeat that feat in 98 without Pippen. The fact is Pippen ran the Bulls offense for 8 years starting in 91. The result? The Bulls finished first in offense three times. Second twice. They were even top 10 in 94 without Jordan.



Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.
Not true. Fg% went down as players began to utilize the three point shot. Its alos funny how you put into context Hondos FG%, but won't do the same for a comparison of their PPG.


As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.
Again context. How many PPG, Rbds, and assists would Pippen avg had he been able to play 45 minutes per?

I've never seen Havlicek play so I can't say whose better. But Hondos accomplished more in the NBA than Pippen has.

[Raz]

I've never seen Havlicek play so I can't say whose better. But Hondos accomplished more in the NBA than Pippen has.

Which would put him above him in the all-time rankings, and for that purpose we consider him a better player. I never intend to compare players directly, rather their impact within their respective era. Havlicek made a bigger, and longer impact. End thread.

[97 bulls]

Which would put him above him in the all-time rankings, and for that purpose we consider him a better player. I never intend to compare players directly, rather their impact within their respective era. Havlicek made a bigger, and longer impact. End thread.
Not so fast. You first say you stay away from direct comparisons. Then in the sentence directly before make a direct comparison by saying Hondos the better player.



And let's just take you're opinion as gospel. Hondo was regarded higher than Pippen was. What if we include ABA players? Pippen was already considered a top 10 player throughout his career top 5 in 94/95. How much higher would his rank be if you were to take 6-7 top players out of the league like what happened in the 70s when the ABA took such greats as Dr.J, Gilmore, Barry to name a few.


You're not even trying to compare these players fairly

[Calabis]

Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.

:roll: :wtf: :facepalm

Ever hear of Jordan, far superior than Pippen as a two way player, as is Lebron as, was Hondo...I swear Pippen must be TOP 10 GOAT, the way these young dudes who never saw him play on here talk about him.

[Calabis]

And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers. He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation, was a number one option on offense, got players involved at a better rate than Pippen, and he could actually shoot consistently.

Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.

Its pointless, quit trying, even that window wasn't dominant..it was very good

[KG215]

Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game.

Did you really just say that? Please tell me you aren't being serious.

[bizil]

:roll: :wtf: :facepalm

Ever hear of Jordan, far superior than Pippen as a two way player, as is Lebron as, was Hondo...I swear Pippen must be TOP 10 GOAT, the way these young dudes who never saw him play on here talk about him.

U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.

[Calabis]

U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.

Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another great perimeter defender in Jordan on the side.

[B-Low]

These threads are always funny cuz people speak with such confidence on players they never even saw play. You can literally count on two hands the number of people on this board who saw JH play :oldlol:

[KG215]

U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.

Not to mention the centers that were better two way players. He said best two way player ever. I'm assuming he was including all players. Either way, he's still wrong.

[LBJFTW]

Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another great perimeter defender in Jordan on the side.

Jordan, yes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gigN2zMU4

[LBJFTW]

These threads are always funny cuz people speak with such confidence on players they never even saw play. You can literally count on two hands the number of people on this board who saw JH play :oldlol:

Hence the reason why I said I'm not going to comment on a guy I never seen play.

[DatAsh]

Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another great perimeter defender in Jordan on the side.

Oddly enough, the Bulls actually improved defensively when Jordan retired in 93.

[bizil]

Not to mention the centers that were better two way players. He said best two way player ever. I'm assuming he was including all players. Either way, he's still wrong.

U are indeed right about the bigs! I feel it's why centers dominated the MVP award in NBA history. From Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, David, Ewing, Walton, etc. a dominant big on both ends can influence a game like no others. Even guys who were very good scorers and great defenders like Russell, Howard, Zo, Gilmore and Thurmond showed how valuable they are. Duncan and KG really set that bar for the PF position, but both are 7 footers.

[Calabis]

Oddly enough, the Bulls actually improved defensively when Jordan retired in 93.

So was this all because of Pippen? Or was it some of the other pieces added, that were slightly better than two aging starters from the previous season?

Although mediocre defender B.J. Armstrong led the team in minutes, Chicago's D improved in large part because they received outstanding performances from Pippen & Grant, each of whom earned Defensive Player of the Year consideration. Pippen had been known as a tremendous defender for years, but in 1994 he was the best perimeter defender in the NBA, and his 96.9 DRtg was one of the best ever by a player 6'8" or shorter. Also, not to be forgotten was Pete Myers' ability to vaguely approximate Jordan's defense at SG, Scott Williams' strong post D, better play from Stacey King, and solid interior performances from Wennington, Blount, and Longley (a major improvement over what Cartwright & King delivered in '93).

Despite the plaudits Jordan received for his D, defense remains largely a team activity, so it makes sense that this was the area in which Chicago did the best job of surviving MJ's retirement. With one of the greatest coaches ever, one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, and a supporting cast of mostly solid defensive players (especially on the defensive glass), it should not have come as a surprise that the Bulls cobbled together a defense that was largely unfazed by the loss of Jordan. This is also good news for Cleveland, who had the NBA's 7th-best D in 2010 and might expect to retain most of that in 2011 despite losing James, a 1st-Team All-Defender.

The Bulls' offense weakened, but didn't totally collapse. There's no question that Chicago's offense suffered a major setback with Jordan's departure -- they fell from 112.9 pts/100 (4.9 better than average, 2nd in the league) in 1993 to 106.1 (0.2 worse than avg., 14th) in 1994 -- but Pippen proved himself a capable high-usage #1 option, and Armstrong/Grant/Kerr were very efficient complimentary players. You can't deny that the Bulls' offense without Jordan was pretty ordinary in '94, but the loss was not catastrophic like it would be in '99, the second time MJ retired

[Freedom Kid7]

I like Scottie and all, but Havlicek was a bit better in my mind. Scottie had a better defensive game and rebounding game than Hondo, but Hondo's longevity, energy and an overall better offensive game make me want to take him. Plus, Scottie wasn't a good #1. Hondo was. Though, I'm not sure who was the better passer.

I feel Hondo can be underrated here sometimes, but that's just me.

[kizut1659]

I like Scottie and all, but Havlicek was a bit better in my mind. Scottie had a better defensive game and rebounding game than Hondo, but Hondo's longevity, energy and an overall better offensive game make me want to take him. Plus, Scottie wasn't a good #1. Hondo was. Though, I'm not sure who was the better passer.

I feel Hondo can be underrated here sometimes, but that's just me.

Not even close, Hondo was the best player on the 68, 69, and 74 teams. Pippen was a great 2nd best player on the team but he never won as the team's best player.

[Freedom Kid7]

Not even close, Hondo was the best player on the 68, 69, 74 and perhaps 76 teams. Pippen was a great 2nd best player on the team but he never won as the team's best player.
Yeah. I do think it's closer than some player comparisons around here though, so hence the close bit. Hondo is a superior player and if I was assembling a GOAT Team he'd be the 6th man (I'm not saying he's the 6th best player, but he excelled in the 6th man role back when he played better than most 6th men. And with his relentless energy and solid scoring, I feel it'd be a good pick)

[kizut1659]

Yeah. I do think it's closer than some player comparisons around here though, so hence the close bit. Hondo is a superior player and if I was assembling a GOAT Team he'd be the 6th man (I'm not saying he's the 6th best player, but he excelled in the 6th man role back when he played better than most 6th men. And with his relentless energy and solid scoring, I feel it'd be a good pick)

I actually think Havlicek is one of the most underrated players of all time. I don't see for example why he should be ranked much lower, if at all, than Jerry West.

[Freedom Kid7]

I actually think Havlicek is one of the most underrated players of all time. I don't see for example why he should be ranked much lower, if at all, than Jerry West.
I agree Hondo is underrated. :cheers: . I have him in the top 20 actually. I'd take him over a lot of guys. Did you know he actually played football in college? I thought that was pretty cool.

[kizut1659]

I agree Hondo is underrated. :cheers: . I have him in the top 20 actually. I'd take him over a lot of guys. Did you know he actually played football in college? I thought that was pretty cool.

I actually have him top 13. I think he really got screwed historically because in the 60s he played in the Russel-Chamberlain era and the 70s are dark age of basketball. I think this article in SI http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089160/4/index.htm says it all about how great he was considered back in the day.

[Freedom Kid7]

I actually have him top 13. I think he really got screwed historically because in the 60s he played in the Russel-Chamberlain era and the 70s are dark age of basketball. I think this article in SI http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089160/4/index.htm says it all about how great he was considered back in the day.
Who are the three guys you'd take him over in 11 through 13. Seeing as how you said he and West are rated similarily I'd like to see who you have in front of Hondo

[bizil]

In terms of Pippen, he's usually rated by most astute bball fans or experts GOAT wise anywhere from the late 20's down to 40. U would think with his resume that he would be rated somewhere at least in the teens to 20. Why is Pippen not rated that high? The reason why is because he wasn't as dominant scoring the rock as other legendary SF's or SG's. And many of those SG's and SF's were epic all around players themselves. Those are the players that Pip is compared to and that's what hurts him from being rated in the teens on a GOAT list. PG's aren't really penalized for that. Even a guy like Russell at center wasn't either. But if u are a SG or SF, MOST of the icons were dominant scorers.

[kizut1659]

Who are the three guys you'd take him over in 11 through 13. Seeing as how you said he and West are rated similarily I'd like to see who you have in front of Hondo

I would just group West, Robertson, and Hondo as 12-14 without trying to rank them individually. I have MMalone and Olajuwan as 10-11.

[SHAQisGOAT]

my top SF list, based on overall as a player (skills, talent, intagibles), career (accolades and acomplishments), longevity, team and competition goes:

1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Hondo
4. LeBron (still climbing up the list of course)
5. Erving (can't give the ABA that much weight, his was at his absolute best there, even so he can very well be argued as higher)
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8. Wilkins
9. Worthy

then along the list, in no particular order, you got guys like English, Dantley, Pierce, King, Wilkes, Rodman and Mullin (if you consider them SF's), McGrady, Aguirre, Arizin, Gus Johnson, Lou Hudson, Marques Johnson, Bobby Jones, Grant Hill, Melo and Durant (still climbing up the list)........


Of course some guys are really close, almost tied

[kizut1659]

my top SF list, based on overall as a player (skills, talent, intagibles), career (accolades and acomplishments), longevity, team and competition goes:

1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Hondo
4. LeBron (still climbing up the list of course)
5. Erving (can't give the ABA that much weight, his was at his absolute best there, even so he can very well be argued as higher)
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8. Wilkins
9. Worthy

then along the list, in no particular order, you got guys like English, Dantley, Pierce, King, Wilkes, Rodman and Mullin (if you consider them SF's), McGrady, Aguirre, Arizin, Gus Johnson, Lou Hudson, Marques Johnson, Bobby Jones, Grant Hill, Melo and Durant (still climbing up the list)........


Of course some guys are really close, almost tied

Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.

Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.

Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.


We'll agree to disagree but like I've said it's so close and I can't argue against what you've said, both have cases.

[97 bulls]

I would just group West, Robertson, and Hondo as 12-14 without trying to rank them individually. I have MMalone and Olajuwan as 10-11.
Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.


Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.


And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.

[aceman]

pippen is the greatest supertasker in NBA history

[97 bulls]

In terms of Pippen, he's usually rated by most astute bball fans or experts GOAT wise anywhere from the late 20's down to 40. U would think with his resume that he would be rated somewhere at least in the teens to 20. Why is Pippen not rated that high? The reason why is because he wasn't as dominant scoring the rock as other legendary SF's or SG's. And many of those SG's and SF's were epic all around players themselves. Those are the players that Pip is compared to and that's what hurts him from being rated in the teens on a GOAT list. PG's aren't really penalized for that. Even a guy like Russell at center wasn't either. But if u are a SG or SF, MOST of the icons were dominant scorers.
Was Hondo really that domnant scoring the ball? His scoring stats rival Pippens. His scoring stats jumped because his minutes jumped.


Are we really gonna try to compare statistics from the 60s with the 90s? In 30 minutes per, Hondo was avg 20 shots a night. In 38 minutes, Pip was avg 15.



The agenda people have against Pippen is hysterical. Now Pippens stats get compared to 60s players.


One thing that frustrates me with you Biz. Is you just can't be unbiased. Context only enters your POV when its convienent. So what if those great small fowards scored more than Pippen. Pippen was much more dominant on defense. Were most of those player mentioned good defenders? Yes. AND PIPPEN WAS A GOOD SCORER.


And no scoring isn't the most important aspect of basketball. Defense, Rebounding, Offense, and teamwork are all on equal level


If a team goes out and try to outscore their opponant and give a lackluster defensive effort? They're gonna lose


If a team sets out to go iso againt their opponant, they're gonna lose.


If a team constantly get domnated on the glas both offensively and defensively, they're gonna lose.


If a team can't score, they're gonna lose.

[97 bulls]

Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.

Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.
Lol Hondo played in the 60s too. You guys couldn't put reasoning and context in your post if you tried

[bizil]

In terms of Hondo against his perimeter counterparts in Big O, Baylor, and West, it was mainly due to scoring dominance. But Hondo played in that Celtics Dynasty on deep ass teams early in his career. When the time came for Hondo to step up his scoring he did it and showed he was a top of the line scorer. He just wasn't quite on the level of O, West, Baylor, and later Rick Barry. But in terms of all around brilliance on both sides on the floor, Hondo was the superior perimeter player of his era. Big O of course is the most iconic all around guy, but that was due to stuffing the stat sheet in the big three categories. But when u throw in defense, I think Hondo was the most well rounded.

[97 bulls]

In terms of Hondo against his perimeter counterparts in Big O, Baylor, and West, it was mainly due to scoring dominance. But Hondo played in that Celtics Dynasty on deep ass teams early in his career. When the time came for Hondo to step up his scoring he did it and showed he was a top of the line scorer. He just wasn't quite on the level of O, West, Baylor, and later Rick Barry. But in terms of all around brilliance on both sides on the floor, Hondo was the superior perimeter player of his era. Big O of course is the most iconic all around guy, but that was due to stuffing the stat sheet in the big three categories. But when u throw in defense, I think Hondo was the most well rounded.
HIS SCORING WENT UP BECAUSE HIS MINUTES WENT UP. JESUS CHRIST

[nycelt84]

Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.


Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.


And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.

Havlicek spent the 60's playing on the most balanced team in basketball where one player did not dominate the team in scoring. And there was no way he was going to get a lot of MVP votes playing with Bill Russell and Sam Jones when they were at their apex.

And he was absolutely considered on the level of West and Robertson by 1969. The opinion that John Havlicek was the best all around player for a time in the early 1970's was not an isolated one.

[KOBE143]

This is no debate.. Scottie by far..

[nycelt84]

HIS SCORING WENT UP BECAUSE HIS MINUTES WENT UP. JESUS CHRIST

That's not why his scoring went up. His scoring went up because all the other high scorers on the team faded away or retired. He was the Celtics leading scorer by his 2nd season. And he would finish 1st or 2nd for the next several years.

[b1imtf]

This is no debate.. Scottie by far..
Scottie stan ahah

[97 bulls]

Havlicek spent the 60's playing on the most balanced team in basketball where one player did not dominate the team in scoring. And there was no way he was going to get a lot of MVP votes playing with Bill Russell and Sam Jones when they were at their apex.

And he was absolutely considered on the level of West and Robertson by 1969. The opinion that John Havlicek was the best all around player for a time in the early 1970's was not an isolated one.
Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote

[bizil]

Was Hondo really that domnant scoring the ball? His scoring stats rival Pippens. His scoring stats jumped because his minutes jumped.


Are we really gonna try to compare statistics from the 60s with the 90s? In 30 minutes per, Hondo was avg 20 shots a night. In 38 minutes, Pip was avg 15.



The agenda people have against Pippen is hysterical. Now Pippens stats get compared to 60s players.


One thing that frustrates me with you Biz. Is you just can't be unbiased. Context only enters your POV when its convienent. So what if those great small fowards scored more than Pippen. Pippen was much more dominant on defense. Were most of those player mentioned good defenders? Yes. AND PIPPEN WAS A GOOD SCORER.


And no scoring isn't the most important aspect of basketball. Defense, Rebounding, Offense, and teamwork are all on equal level


If a team goes out and try to outscore their opponant and give a lackluster defensive effort? They're gonna lose


If a team sets out to go iso againt their opponant, they're gonna lose.


If a team constantly get domnated on the glas both offensively and defensively, they're gonna lose.


If a team can't score, they're gonna lose.


In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style that Pippen went on to redefine.

And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!

When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that!

[SHAQisGOAT]

In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style of Pippen went on to redefine.

And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!

When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that!


Plus Hondo was also a great defensive player, lockdown defender.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote

Guess Kareem, West (early 70's), Frazier, Wilt (early 70's), Cowens, McAdoo, Maravich, Rick Barry, Nate Archibald, Elvin Hayes... Mean sh*t.

[97 bulls]

In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style of Pippen went on to redefine.


And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!
the three point line has never increased scoring. In the mid 90s. The league even tried to increase scoring by moving it in and scoring still went down. All experts accept the fact that you can't compare stats from the 60s with modern basketball. Hondos not avg close to 30 ppg now a days. Its not different thain if I try to say Pippen is a better scorer by looing at their fg%. And I'm not penalizing Hondos minutes per. But to totally dismiis that fact is wrong.


When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that!
Lol reread my post. I believe I stated that your stance is that the most important facet of basetball is scoring. And that's WRONG. No coach puts offense at a premium over the other facets of basketball. NONE. Other than Dantoni and Nelson. And its no coincidence that they have a combined no championships.

[97 bulls]

Guess Kareem, West (early 70's), Frazier, Wilt (early 70's), Cowens, McAdoo, Maravich, Rick Barry, Nate Archibald, Elvin Hayes... Mean sh*t.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself making this dumb post.

[kizut1659]

Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.


Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.


And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.

Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?

[bizil]

Lol reread my post. I believe I stated that your stance is that the most important facet of basetball is scoring. And that's WRONG. No coach puts offense at a premium over the other facets of basketball. NONE. Other than Dantoni and Nelson. And its no coincidence that they have a combined no championships.

U are missing the point! If whoever scores the most points is the ONLY WAY to win a game, then it HAS to be the most premium asset. And for every Dantoni and Nelson u show me, I can show a team like the Showtime Lakers. Or teams that have 2-3 alpha HOFers.

U are putting words in my mouth. I never said the way Nelson and Dantoni play bball is the ultimate way to play. What I MEAN is most of the premier players in basketball are DOMINANT SCORERS:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron-Big O-Hakeem

In my book, these are the top 12 players of all time. Other than Russell what do these guys have in common? It's the fact that THEY ARE ALL DOMINANT SCORERS. Or in the case of a PG like Magic, can become one at the drop of a hat. Russell is the rare breed who is the exception. Many of these guys on my list WERE ALSO epic defenders. So it's not just scoring that matters.

But don't get it twisted, the Spurs as great a defensive team that they were had Timmy. Those Bulls teams had MJ. Those Pistons teams had Isiah. The Rockets had Hakeem and Drexler. The Knicks had Frazier, Reed, and Monroe. The Heat got Bron and Wade. All of teams I named were GREAT DEFENSIVE TEAMS who ALSO had immortals who were DOMINANT SCORERS! U need guys who can put the ball in the hole AGAINST ALL ODDS! The way u talk, u would take Eddie Jones over George Gervin! Or Mutumbo over Bob McAdoo! Or Dumars over George Gervin! LOL

[kizut1659]

That's not why his scoring went up. His scoring went up because all the other high scorers on the team faded away or retired. He was the Celtics leading scorer by his 2nd season. And he would finish 1st or 2nd for the next several years.

Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.

[97 bulls]

Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?
I'm not even talking about winning. He didn't. Come close until half the players capable of winning were playing in the ABA. And even then the best he could do was fourth. Pippen placed third in 94. And had top ten finishes playing alongside Jordan.

[bizil]

Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?

Excellent point! And I guess Shaq and Kobe are inferior to Nash as well! lol MVPs ultimately are OPINIONS that turn into an award. If a reporter doesn't like u or has an agenda, they won't vote for u a lot of the time. Hell Jordan could have been a 10 time MVP! Shaq and Kobe were certainly capable of having three MVPs like Bron does today. The only awards that are FLAT OUT FACTS THROUGH AND THROUGH are championships, gold medals, scoring titles, rebounding titles, assists titles, etc.

[DatAsh]

Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.

Nothing that I've read about Havlicek would lead me to believe that he was a better leader than Pippen. What have you read that would cause you to believe otherwise?

[97 bulls]

U are missing the point! If whoever scores the most points is the ONLY WAY to win a game, then it HAS to be the most premium asset. And for every Dantoni and Nelson u show me, I can show a team like the Showtime Lakers. Or teams that have 2-3 alpha HOFers.

U are putting words in my mouth. I never said the way Nelson and Dantoni play bball is the ultimate way to play. What I MEAN is most of the premier players in basketball are DOMINANT SCORERS:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron-Big O-Hakeem

In my book, these are the top 12 players of all time. Other than Russell what do these guys have in common? It's the fact that THEY ARE ALL DOMINANT SCORERS. Or in the case of a PG like Magic, can become one at the drop of a hat. Russell is the rare breed who is the exception. Many of these guys on my list WERE ALSO epic defenders. So it's not just scoring that matters.

But don't get it twisted, the Spurs as great a defensive team that they were had Timmy. Those Bulls teams had MJ. Those Pistons teams had Isiah. The Rockets had Hakeem and Drexler. The Knicks had Frazier, Reed, and Monroe. The Heat got Bron and Wade. All of teams I named were GREAT DEFENSIVE TEAMS who ALSO had immortals who were DOMINANT SCORERS! U need guys who can put the ball in the hole AGAINST ALL ODDS! The way u talk, u would take Eddie Jones over George Gervin! Or Mutumbo over Bob McAdoo! Or Dumars over George Gervin! LOL
You know why those guys are top 10? CHAMPIONSHIPS. All those players were great at at least two or more aspects of basketball. They were much more than just scoring. You have the mindset of an occasional fan.


Why isn't Gervin or Iverson ranked higher? Two guys that have multiple seasons leading the league in scoring. And more seasons in the high 20s/low 30s? Ill tell you why. They were one dimensional, and didn't win any championships.


I also notice you love to stress the importance of "clutch" scoring. Well clutch defense is just as important and even more difficult.

[bizil]

I'm not even talking about winning. He didn't. Come close until half the players capable of winning were playing in the ABA. And even then the best he could do was fourth. Pippen placed third in 94. And had top ten finishes playing alongside Jordan.

U can put whatever spin u want to on this. MVP votes are opinons that are then awarded. The NBA was mad deep in the 60s, even though their weren't as many teams. U are talking about Wilt, West, Baylor, Pettit, Russell, etc. Their is no shame in finishing behind those guys. And a lot of Pippen's top ten finishes got helped out because he was playing alongside MJ winning rings. MJ had more to do with Pippen getting those votes before MJ needing Pippen for MVP votes. MJ was already league MVP and Defensive Player of the year BEFORE Pippen was even ready for primetime in 1988. This was in the L with Magic, Bird, Isiah, etc. When Pippen went on his run, guess what? NO ISIAH, NO MAGIC, NO BIRD, and NO MJ. So don't knock Hondo for his MVP shit, when Pippen's best chance came when four immortals were outta the picture HYPOCRITE!!!

[kizut1659]

I'm not even talking about winning. He didn't. Come close until half the players capable of winning were playing in the ABA. And even then the best he could do was fourth. Pippen placed third in 94. And had top ten finishes playing alongside Jordan.

It doesn't seem that there were many seasons in the 60s that had top 10 mvp voting - only top 5. Also if the MVP voters can get the MVP winner wrong (which they did many many times), they can also get the top 5-10 wrong. By your logic Isiah Thomas, who never finished as high as Pippen in MVP voting, is a worse player than him. Finally, like I said, Havlicek's best performances came in the playoffs.

[kizut1659]

Nothing that I've read about Havlicek would lead me to believe that he was a better leader than Pippen. What have you read that would cause you to believe otherwise?

He functioned as an assistant coach under Russel in 1968 and 1969. He was the undisputed leader in the 70s - see the SI article i linked above. Pippen was only a leader in 1993-1994 and his most famous moment from that season is refusing to enter the game when the final shot was called for Kukoc. He showed zero leadership in Houston in 1999. In 2000, it was Portland's lack of leadership among other things that led to the worst 4th collapse in league history up to that time. Wasn't Pippen 0 for 2 in that quarter? I know Pippen was older then but he was younger than Havlicek in 1976, when he led an aging Boston team to a final championship and made clutch shots along the way.

[97 bulls]

Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.
Scottie Pippen has had more clutch moments in the playoffs than Hondo. How bout the blocks on charles smith? Or his defense on Magic? Or his leading the Bulls back from that 15 point deficit vs the Blazers? Or the game clinching steal vs the Jazz? Or the two clutch shots he hit vs the jazz with that bad back?

[bizil]

You know why those guys are top 10? CHAMPIONSHIPS. All those players were great at at least two or more aspects of basketball. They were much more than just scoring. You have the mindset of an occasional fan.


Why isn't Gervin or Iverson ranked higher? Two guys that have multiple seasons leading the league in scoring. And more seasons in the high 20s/low 30s? Ill tell you why. They were one dimensional, and didn't win any championships.


I also notice you love to stress the importance of "clutch" scoring. Well clutch defense is just as important and even more difficult.

U are insane for real! If titles are everything and Pippen is that great, why isn't Pippen in the top 10? How about the top 20? Pippen is more in that 30 range. If rings mean everything, then why is Pippen that low while Hondo STAYS in most people's top 13-20? Pippen has more rings than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt, Bird, Bron, Big O, and Hakeem. He has just as many as MJ and Kareem and stands only behind Russell. Those players are that high because of rings AND they were SIMPLY ON ANOTHER LEVEL OR TWO THAN PIPPEN! Get Pip's dick outta ya mouth and face facts!!! U wanna get personal now I gonna really expose your ass.

It's because the perception of Pippen is that he can't will a team scoring the rock like other legendary SG's or SF's. U keep avoiding the damn issue. But why is Pippen rated that low with his resume? Answer that for me PLEASE if u got any balls. Give me conclusive proof why Pippen should be a top 20 player of all time instead of a top 30 player. Guys with NO RINGS like Barkley and Malone are ALWAYS RATED AHEAD OF PIPPEN! LMBAO!!! Guys with less rings than Pippen (like nine outta my top 12 players ever) have less rings than Pippen.

If u give Lebron James six rings, he battling it out with MJ for GOAT or damn close to it. Certainly MORE CLOSE than Pip ever got to MJ's level. How about giving Wilt six rings? He would be the GOAT and not MJ most likely. Six rings is a shitload of rings that can really boost GOAT standing. The sad part is it only boosted Pippen to top 30 all time status. I LOL to think were Pip would be WITHOUT ANY RINGS! I know where guys like Nique, Stockton, Mailman, Ewing, Barkley, and Mullin ended up. And that's the Hall of Fame bitch! I'm not sure Pippen makes the HOF if he doesn't have all of those rings.

[kizut1659]

Scottie Pippen has had more clutch moments in the playoffs than Hondo. How bout the blocks on charles smith? Or his defense on Magic? Or his leading the Bulls back from that 15 point deficit vs the Blazers? Or the game clinching steal vs the Jazz? Or the two clutch shots he hit vs the jazz with that bad back?

LOl thats the stupidest post i've ever read and i don't want waste time or energy rebutting everything that you've said. . . i must say though that "defense" on Magic is not "clutch" -Pippen was just a great defender and so was Havlicek, both of their defense were instrumental to their team's championships. And Pippen never had the equivalent of 1965 Havlicek steals the ball moment. Also I think the only game winning shot Pippen ever made was a dunk on MJ's missed shot against Washington in 1997. And what freaking 2 clutch shots against the Jazz are you talking about?

[bizil]

You know why those guys are top 10? CHAMPIONSHIPS. All those players were great at at least two or more aspects of basketball. They were much more than just scoring. You have the mindset of an occasional fan.


Why isn't Gervin or Iverson ranked higher? Two guys that have multiple seasons leading the league in scoring. And more seasons in the high 20s/low 30s? Ill tell you why. They were one dimensional, and didn't win any championships.


I also notice you love to stress the importance of "clutch" scoring. Well clutch defense is just as important and even more difficult.

Gervin got the Spurs on deep playoff runs. Sometimes the better team wins u can't knock George for that. AI got that Sixers (i guarantee one of the five worst Eastern Conference Champion Teams EVER) to the Finals. That's not a small feat. AI was far from a one dimensional player. He was a great passer at SG, one of the premier SG passers of all time. AI could EASILY run point better than scoring first PG's like Rose, Parker, and Westbrook. AI had WAY MORE OF AN UNDERSTANDING running point those two do currently. AI was just more killer scoring oriented and shifted to SG, which was a genius move by Larry Brown.

I realize u have clutch defense too. I NEVER DOUBTED PIP ON THAT!! I'm talking about clutch scoring!! And I doubt Pippen on that. Shit i would rather have PG's willing me to victory scoring such as CP3, Rose, DWill, Westbrook, and Parker before Pippen. Or if u wanna go old school Isiah, Clyde Frazier, or Tiny. Magic and Big O go without saying.

[L.Kizzle]

The guy who won a Finals MVP.

[97 bulls]

U can put whatever spin u want to on this. MVP votes are opinons that are then awarded.
a few post earlier, you were taking those "experts" word as gospel. Now you want to trivialize them when it doesn't agree with your POV?

The NBA was mad deep in the 60s, even though their weren't as many teams. U are talking about Wilt, West, Baylor, Pettit, Russell, etc. Their is no shame in finishing behind those guys.
I'm not diminshing Hondos inability to get an MVP. But posters have said he was on par with West and Robinson. That's not true.

And a lot of Pippen's top ten finishes got helped out because he was playing alongside MJ winning rings. MJ had more to do with Pippen getting those votes before MJ needing Pippen for MVP votes.
This makes no sense

MJ was already league MVP and Defensive Player of the year BEFORE Pippen was even ready for primetime in 1988. This was in the L with Magic, Bird, Isiah, etc. When Pippen went on his run, guess what? NO ISIAH, NO MAGIC, NO BIRD, and NO MJ.
Pippen had to compete with Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Shaq, Malone, Robinson. That's nothing to scoff at.

So don't knock Hondo for his MVP shit, when Pippen's best chance came when four immortals were outta the picture HYPOCRITE!!!
The only hypocrite here is you. I even said I can see why Hondo would be ranked higher. He accomplished more in the league. You on the other hand allude to experts when it convientient for you but then belittle the same experts when the theory doesn't follow your pov. I've seen you say Pippen wasn't a franchise player because he couldn't lead the Bulls to a championship in 94. Then call Mchale a franchise player in spite of the fact he failed miserably in 89.

[WockaVodka]

Pippen, because he was the better player.

[97 bulls]

U are insane for real! If titles are everything and Pippen is that great, why isn't Pippen in the top 10? How about the top 20? Pippen is more in that 30 range. If rings mean everything, then why is Pippen that low while Hondo STAYS in most people's top 13-20?
Hold on, are you referring to the "experts" again? Don't know. Maybe they dislike Pippen more than they dislike Hondo.

Pippen has more rings than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt, Bird, Bron, Big O, and Hakeem. He has just as many as MJ and Kareem and stands only behind Russell. Those players are that high because of rings AND they were SIMPLY ON ANOTHER LEVEL OR TWO THAN PIPPEN! Get Pip's dick outta ya mouth and face facts!!! U wanna get personal now I gonna really expose your ass.

It's because the perception of Pippen is that he can't will a team scoring the rock like other legendary SG's or SF's. U keep avoiding the damn issue. But why is Pippen rated that low with his resume? Answer that for me PLEASE if u got any balls. Give me conclusive proof why Pippen should be a top 20 player of all time instead of a top 30 player. Guys with NO RINGS like Barkley and Malone are ALWAYS RATED AHEAD OF PIPPEN! LMBAO!!! Guys with less rings than Pippen (like nine outta my top 12 players ever) have less rings than Pippen.
Pippen doesn't have an MVP. If he won and MVP in 94 (which some fell he would've had he not missed those ten game), he's top 15 easily.

If u give Lebron James six rings, he battling it out with MJ for GOAT or damn close to it. Certainly MORE CLOSE than Pip ever got to MJ's level. How about giving Wilt six rings? He would be the GOAT and not MJ most likely. Six rings is a shitload of rings that can really boost GOAT standing. The sad part is it only boosted Pippen to top 30 all time status. I LOL to think were Pip would be WITHOUT ANY RINGS! I know where guys like Nique, Stockton, Mailman, Ewing, Barkley, and Mullin ended up. And that's the Hall of Fame bitch! I'm not sure Pippen makes the HOF if he doesn't have all of those rings.
That's all players bro. Strip any player of their rings and they're rank would plummet. Both James and Jordan were considered losers before they won their championships. Inspite of the amazing stats both players put up.

[bizil]

That's all players bro. Strip any player of their rings and they're rank would plummet. Both James and Jordan were considered losers before they won their championships. Inspite of the amazing stats both players put up.

But Pip's standing would plummet WAY MORE THAN MJ's or Bron' ranking! Because MJ and Bron are simply in another universe than Pippen. Take rings away and MJ and Bron would be first ballot HOF. I can't say the same about Pippen. Especially when a guy like Worthy with three rings wasn't first ballot. It's unfortunate many felt Bron and MJ were losers. U gotta look at the sum of the parts as well. I feel gotta blame the surrounding cast MORE than you would MJ or Bron. MJ ran into the Celtics and Pistons early in his career. MJ and the Bulls were NEVER favored to beat those teams initially.

It was when Pippen and Grant came of age that the Bulls became a force. Everybody doesn't have the luxury to join a team with KAJ, Nixon, and Wilkes like Magic. Bron got one of the worst Eastern Conference Title teams ever to the Finals in the Cavs. Though should have been applauded instead of hated on. Bron ran into the Pistons and later the Celtics. Two teams the were clearly better.

In terms of MVPs, they can be overrated at times. GOAT standing takes WAY MORE INTO ACCOUNT than an MVP vote. Therefore, I feel u can come to a more logical conclusion GOAT wise as opposed to MVP. Both are based on opinion, but GOAT or HOF type stuff gives u a larger body of work to choose from. MVP is just for that 1 year. GOAT-HOF can take into account possibly 20 years of accolades both solo and team, longevity being great, numbers, and impact on the L. (redefining position, a face of the L casual fan wise) So I have more ammo to throw at somebody in terms of debating a legacy INSTEAD of a one season. Sure Pippen in '94 was the best perimeter player in the world. But legacy wise, Pippen is FAR FROM THAT DISTINCTION, VERY FAR!

[andgar923]

Who do you think was better, and why?
There should only be 3-5 people that should have a legit opinion. Most of us have never seen Havlicek play outside of a few highlights.

[97 bulls]

LOl thats the stupidest post i've ever read and i don't want waste time or energy rebutting everything that you've said. . . i must say though that "defense" on Magic is not "clutch" -Pippen was just a great defender and so was Havlicek, both of their defense were instrumental to their team's championships. And Pippen never had the equivalent of 1965 Havlicek steals the ball moment. Also I think the only game winning shot Pippen ever made was a dunk on MJ's missed shot against Washington in 1997. And what freaking 2 clutch shots against the Jazz are you talking about?
The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch

[bizil]

The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch

A peak Gervin and MJ at the same time would have been devastating, but in a different way. The Bulls could have possibly wheeled and dealed and got a perimeter defender to still take the heat off of MJ in terms of having to check Magic. But I will give Pip this, he was the perfect compliment to MJ. He took pressure off of MJ in terms of being the main perimeter defender and assist guy. And Pip was a very good scorer who could get his 20-23 a night. If it was MJ and Gervin, they would be tougher to stop scoring wise. But MJ would have to take on more of the passing and defensive duties. So the Bulls would have to win a different way. Pip was the perfect compliment, but peak Gervin and peak MJ would have been devastating! It would just be different and hopefully the Bulls would have acquired a defensive wing to go with it.

[kizut1659]

The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch

I love how you ignored basically everything in my post and the one point you've adressed you completely miscarecterized what i've said. I AGREED with you that Pippen is a great defender! The only point i was making is that great defense is not "clutch" - its a freaking skill. BOTH Pippen and Havlicek had it, just like both of them had excellent all-around game with passing and rebounding. What separates Havlicek from Pippen is superior scoring and clutch play. I don't care how much you want to twist the facts but that cannot be disputed by anyone who has any objectivity.

BTW this is very secondary and i am not saying that Pippen's defense in 1991 did not help and that he did not do a good job but Magic still averaged 18.6/8/12.4 in the finals. This was not quite the 1987 version of Magic so yes, Pippen should get the credit, but Jordan was BY FAR the mvp of that series.

[Gifted Mind]

I've constantly said this and will say it again: Havlicek is the most underrated player on ISH.

[97 bulls]

But Pip's standing would plummet WAY MORE THAN MJ's or Bron' ranking! Because MJ and Bron are simply in another universe than Pippen. Take rings away and MJ and Bron would be first ballot HOF. I can't say the same about Pippen. Especially when a guy like Worthy with three rings wasn't first ballot.
I can't disagree with this. But I'm not trying to compare Pippen with James and Jordan.

It's unfortunate many felt Bron and MJ were losers. U gotta look at the sum of the parts as well. I feel gotta blame the surrounding cast MORE than you would MJ or Bron. MJ ran into the Celtics and Pistons early in his career. MJ and the Bulls were NEVER favored to beat those teams initially.
But neither was Pippen. And yet you penalize him for not winning in 94. Saying he didn't do enough to win. Well no one did enough to win if they lose. And James did lose to teams his Cavs teams should've beat. But he gets a pass right?


It was when Pippen and Grant came of age that the Bulls became a force. Everybody doesn't have the luxury to join a team with KAJ, Nixon, and Wilkes like Magic. Bron got one of the worst Eastern Conference Title teams ever to the Finals in the Cavs. Though should have been applauded instead of hated on. Bron ran into the Pistons and later the Celtics. Two teams the were clearly better.
Oh please. James and his Cavs teams played in a conference that was terrible. That Pistons team was injury riddled.


In terms of MVPs, they can be overrated at times. GOAT standing takes WAY MORE INTO ACCOUNT than an MVP vote. Therefore, I feel u can come to a more logical conclusion GOAT wise as opposed to MVP. Both are based on opinion, but GOAT or HOF type stuff gives u a larger body of work to choose from. MVP is just for that 1 year. GOAT-HOF can take into account possibly 20 years of accolades both solo and team, longevity being great, numbers, and impact on the L. (redefining position, a face of the L casual fan wise) So I have more ammo to throw at somebody in terms of debating a legacy INSTEAD of a one season. Sure Pippen in '94 was the best perimeter player in the world. But legacy wise, Pippen is FAR FROM THAT DISTINCTION, VERY FAR!
Well, you asked me and I gave you my opinion. Championships and MVPs are the most important criteria when ranking players in my opinion.

[97 bulls]

A peak Gervin and MJ at the same time would have been devastating, but in a different way. The Bulls could have possibly wheeled and dealed and got a perimeter defender to still take the heat off of MJ in terms of having to check Magic. But I will give Pip this, he was the perfect compliment to MJ. He took pressure off of MJ in terms of being the main perimeter defender and assist guy. And Pip was a very good scorer who could get his 20-23 a night. If it was MJ and Gervin, they would be tougher to stop scoring wise. But MJ would have to take on more of the passing and defensive duties. So the Bulls would have to win a different way. Pip was the perfect compliment, but peak Gervin and peak MJ would have been devastating! It would just be different and hopefully the Bulls would have acquired a defensive wing to go with it.
Think about what your saying, Pippens impact is tantamount to two players. In this case Gervin and a solid wing defender.

Funny thing is, whenever someone wants to replace Pippen, its always with a center. Like Ewing or Robinson

[97 bulls]

I love how you ignored basically everything in my post and the one point you've adressed you completely miscarecterized what i've said. I AGREED with you that Pippen is a great defender! The only point i was making is that great defense is not "clutch" - its a freaking skill. BOTH Pippen and Havlicek had it, just like both of them had excellent all-around game with passing and rebounding. What separates Havlicek from Pippen is superior scoring and clutch play. I don't care how much you want to twist the facts but that cannot be disputed by anyone who has any objectivity.
So if I'm understanding you, defense can never be clutch because its a skill, but offense or the ability to score isn't? Ok


BTW this is very secondary and i am not saying that Pippen's defense in 1991 did not help and that he did not do a good job but Magic still averaged 18.6/8/12.4 in the finals. This was not quite the 1987 version of Magic so yes, Pippen should get the credit, but Jordan was BY FAR the mvp of that series.
You cant go off stats solely. However, Magic shot a terrible percentage, had a lot of TOs, and the Lakers offense was flustered. During the regular season, the Lakers avg 106 ppg. In the finals, it dropped to 90.

Jus outta curiousity, what would Pippen stats look like had he played in the 60s?

[aceman]

I realize u have clutch defense too. I NEVER DOUBTED PIP ON THAT!! I'm talking about clutch scoring!! And I doubt Pippen on that. Shit i would rather have PG's willing me to victory scoring such as CP3, Rose, DWill, Westbrook, and Parker before Pippen. Or if u wanna go old school Isiah, Clyde Frazier, or Tiny. Magic and Big O go without saying.

scottie brought a lot more to the table than any of those guys, that's what made him great. you just happen to rank shooting above everything else.

[KG215]

Wait, I know Pippen switched to Magic in game two and I think guarded him most of or for a half of game three, but I'm pretty sure Jordan was his primary defender the rest of the series.

[aceman]

He functioned as an assistant coach under Russel in 1968 and 1969. He was the undisputed leader in the 70s - see the SI article i linked above. Pippen was only a leader in 1993-1994 and his most famous moment from that season is refusing to enter the game when the final shot was called for Kukoc. He showed zero leadership in Houston in 1999. In 2000, it was Portland's lack of leadership among other things that led to the worst 4th collapse in league history up to that time. Wasn't Pippen 0 for 2 in that quarter? I know Pippen was older then but he was younger than Havlicek in 1976, when he led an aging Boston team to a final championship and made clutch shots along the way.

ask phil jackson about pippen as a leader

[97 bulls]

Wait, I know Pippen switched to Magic in game two and I thin guarded him most of or for a half of game three, but I'm pretty sue Jordan was his primary defender the rest of the series.
Jordan was. I was talking about game two exclusively.

[nycelt84]

Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote

This is circa 70-73. Dr. J and Malone weren't even playing pro basketball then and Hawkins was in the NBA. But what should I expect from the guy who claims Pippen has more clutch moments in the playoffs than Havlicek and who knows nothing about Havlicek's clutch playoffs moments lol. Havlicek stealing the ball in Game 7 of the '65 ECF is more clutch than anything Pippen ever did. And that's not even before bringing up what Havlicek did in the '68, '69, and '76 Finals among several other years.

[pauk]

Pippen was better defensively, but Havlicek was better overall especially during his peak.

During their peaks the statistics/productions werent that close either. At two points in his career Havlicek was flirting with almost 30 point triple double averages (29-9-8 and then 28-8-8). Havlicek was the alpha dog in at least 1 championship run, arguably 2.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I've constantly said this and will say it again: Havlicek is the most underrated player on ISH.

One of the most underrated players ever at that.

[SHAQisGOAT]

You ought to be ashamed of yourself making this dumb post.


LOL what dumb post? The only one I'm seeing making dumb posts is you. You probably 13 though, I forgive

[Smoke117]

Scottie Pippen.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This is circa 70-73. Dr. J and Malone weren't even playing pro basketball then and Hawkins was in the NBA. But what should I expect from the guy who claims Pippen has more clutch moments in the playoffs than Havlicek and who knows nothing about Havlicek's clutch playoffs moments lol. Havlicek stealing the ball in Game 7 of the '65 ECF is more clutch than anything Pippen ever did. And that's not even before bringing up what Havlicek did in the '68, '69, and '76 Finals among several other years.


Really! And he claims I make dumb posts lol :facepalm

[Calabis]

Or his defense on Magic?

Really, one game when Jordan got into foul trouble? Jordan guarded Magic most of the series, and I find it funny how you fail to acknowledge his legendary defense on Worthy



Or his leading the Bulls back from that 15 point deficit vs the Blazers?

I've seen you say this over and over, so I decided to break it down

Armstrong assist to Hansen for 3 points

Hansen pass to King flag foul by Drexler..free throws

Pippen scores on post up

King fouled free throws

Hansen to Pip, post up turn around

Missed shot rebound Armstrong, dribbles out hits turn around

Pip to King, backs up Williams, who flops, hits turn around

All this with Blazers imploding on offense..Bulls within 3

Jordan now enters game after Blazers timeout

Pippen catches them napping drives in for a lay-up

Jordan drives floater over Cliff

Pippen hits 3 with shot clock running down, nice shot... ties game at 85

Jordan hits tough jumper falling to right(87-87)

Jordan steal dunk(89-87)

Pippen jumper from free throw line (91-89)

Jordan fadeaway (93-91)

Jordan dribble up the court, blows by Drexler lay-up (95-91) (35 seconds)

Pippen dumb foul, gives free throws (95-93)

Jordan fouled intentionally free throws(97-93) 11.8 seconds left

ball game

Pippen played a damn good game but u talk about it like he went on a one man tear...in the time Jordan/Grant are on the bench, King scores 6 points, Pippen 4 points......Jordan enters and scores 12 points, Pippen 7.....Jordan outscores Pippen 12-11 in fourth quarter



Or the game clinching steal vs the Jazz?

What about the game clinching basket by Kerr? Or the 39/11/4 Jordan put up, and his ridiculous 4th quarter run that entire series, and in this game scored all the points down the stretch and assisted on Kerr's shot..so u should say GAME PRESERVING STEAL...because u have no proof that UTAH makes a shot if ball is not stolen

[eliteballer]

and I find it funny how you fail to acknowledge his legendary defense on Worthy

:oldlol: Worthy on a busted ankle was posting him up at will.

[bizil]

The sad part about many pro-Pippen guys is the fact that u DON'T let sleeping dogs lie. Pippen redefined the SF spot, deserves to be in the HOF, and was a great player. But it's when u try to elevate Pip higher than he should be. I think at the highest, Pip has a case to be rated in the late 20's GOAT wise. But more likely I think he is somewhere in the 30's. Hondo is a top 15 kind of guy. And at one time a top 10 GOAT guy. At one time, Hondo was arguably the GOAT SF! Pippen was simply NEVER on that kind of level. If Pippen was more DOMINANT OFFENSIVELY, he would be on the level Hondo is and possibly higher.

I'm not saying u HAVE to be a great scorer to be a great player for ALL U HATERS OUT THERE! But with all Pippen has accomplished, why is it guys like Barkley and Mailman with NO rings are rated above Pippen who has six rings? It's because of the perception Pip wasn't an alpha dog. What other reason could it be?

Isiah is rated higher than Pippen on most GOAT list. Why is that when Pippen has more rings than Isiah? Once again, it's because Isiah was known to be a killer scoring the ball when it was showtime. Once again, I'm not saying that's a be all end all. However, if Pippen is on the level many try to put him at (Dr.J, Bird, Hondo, Bron level SF), then why isn't he ranked as high as them GOAT wise by most?

[97 bulls]

Pippen was better defensively, but Havlicek was better overall especially during his peak.

During their peaks the statistics/productions werent that close either. At two points in his career Havlicek was flirting with almost 30 point triple double averages (29-9-8 and then 28-8-8). Havlicek was the alpha dog in at least 1 championship run, arguably 2.
Pippen would've been the alpha dog on those teams too. How many of the Bulls six championships would Hondo be considered "alpha dog"?


What kind of numbers would Pippen avg if he played in the 60s?

[andgar923]

Notice a pattern with Pip fans or to be blunt

[bizil]

I think many confuse what an alpha dog is. Now do I think peak Pippen could be the best player on a title team? HELL YA! If it's a team like the 2000s Pistons or the late 90's Blazers team that a declining Pippen was on Those are teams deep with talented All Star caliber players that Pippen was better than. Pip could carry his same scoring mindset and have guys like Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Sabonis, Steve Smith, Damon, Bonzi, Detlef, etc. chip in with the scoring. All the while Pip is acknowledged as the best player on the squad. So if that is your definition of alpha dog then yes u are correct.

But the term alpha dog is REALLY defined for guys who can take a game by the throat scoring the rock. PG's like Magic, Isiah, and CP3 qualify for this too because when it's time to go or when they damn well feel like they can become bloodthirsty and killers scoring the rock. It counts for Lebron as well who by his scoring numbers show he's an epic scorer and puts the foot on the gas, even though his clutch gene is questioned by many. Guys like MJ, Big O, Bird, West, Baylor, Gervin, AI, Barry, Nique,Kobe, King, Wade, Melo, Dr. J, and Durant are frankly some of the guys who are the ULTIMATE at being an alpha dog. They are so great at scoring and get greedy and turn into assholes damn near wanting to torture teams. Pippen in this realm ISN'T an alpha dog.

And in terms of bigs, of course Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mailman, Dirk, Hayes, Petitt, Duncan and Barkley qualify. KG is more of a Lebron type for a big, but still has enough stage presence to be considered an alpha dog.

[97 bulls]

Really, one game when Jordan got into foul trouble? Jordan guarded Magic most of the series, and I find it funny how you fail to acknowledge his legendary defense on Worthy




I've seen you say this over and over, so I decided to break it down

Armstrong assist to Hansen for 3 points

Hansen pass to King flag foul by Drexler..free throws

Pippen scores on post up

King fouled free throws

Hansen to Pip, post up turn around

Missed shot rebound Armstrong, dribbles out hits turn around

Pip to King, backs up Williams, who flops, hits turn around

All this with Blazers imploding on offense..Bulls within 3

Jordan now enters game after Blazers timeout

Pippen catches them napping drives in for a lay-up

Jordan drives floater over Cliff

Pippen hits 3 with shot clock running down, nice shot... ties game at 85

Jordan hits tough jumper falling to right(87-87)

Jordan steal dunk(89-87)

Pippen jumper from free throw line (91-89)
that was the go ahead basket.
Jordan fadeaway (93-91)

Jordan dribble up the court, blows by Drexler lay-up (95-91) (35 seconds)

Pippen dumb foul, gives free throws (95-93)

Jordan fouled intentionally free throws(97-93) 11.8 seconds left

ball game

Pippen played a damn good game but u talk about it like he went on a one man tear...in the time Jordan/Grant are on the bench, King scores 6 points, Pippen 4 points......Jordan enters and scores 12 points, Pippen 7.....Jordan outscores Pippen 12-11 in fourth quarter




What about the game clinching basket by Kerr? Or the 39/11/4 Jordan put up, and his ridiculous 4th quarter run that entire series, and in this game scored all the points down the stretch and assisted on Kerr's shot..so u should say GAME PRESERVING STEAL...because u have no proof that UTAH makes a shot if ball is not stolen
That steal meant the Jazz had NO CHANCE at even attempting a shot. I brought up that steal because someone statd Pippen didn't have a clutch moment like the one where Hondo steals the ball. There is no reason why one play should be ranked over the other. Unless you have an agenda.



I never stated or implied Pippen defended Magic exclusively from game 2 on. Doesn't make his game 2 contribution any less impactful.

[97 bulls]

I think many confuse what an alpha dog is. Now do I think peak Pippen could be the best player on a title team? HELL YA! If it's a team like the 2000s Pistons or the late 90's Blazers team that a declining Pippen was on Those are teams deep with talented All Star caliber players that Pippen was better than. Pip could carry his same scoring mindset and have guys like Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Sabonis, Steve Smith, Damon, Bonzi, Detlef, etc. chip in with the scoring. All the while Pip is acknowledged as the best player on the squad. So if that is your definition of alpha dog then yes u are correct.

But the term alpha dog is REALLY defined for guys who can take a game by the throat scoring the rock. PG's like Magic, Isiah, and CP3 qualify for this too because when it's time to go or when they damn well feel like they can become bloodthirsty and killers scoring the rock. It counts for Lebron as well who by his scoring numbers show he's an epic scorer and puts the foot on the gas, even though his clutch gene is questioned by many. Guys like MJ, Big O, Bird, West, Baylor, Gervin, AI, Barry, Nique,Kobe, King, Wade, Melo, Dr. J, and Durant are frankly some of the guys who are the ULTIMATE at being an alpha dog. They are so great at scoring and get greedy and turn into assholes damn near wanting to torture teams. Pippen in this realm ISN'T an alpha dog.

And in terms of bigs, of course Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mailman, Dirk, Hayes, Petitt, Duncan and Barkley qualify. KG is more of a Lebron type for a big, but still has enough stage presence to be considered an alpha dog.
But the point is what makes the way Pippen impacted the game on the court any less great than some of the players you mentioned? You mistake a style for results. For instance. Rajon Rondo and Derron Williams. Williams would be considered the best scorer of the two, but not neccesarily the better PG. Id even say Rondo has more impact on the court than Williams.

Your biggest knock on Pippen has always been that he didn't score enough to win. The fact is when all the players you lited lost, they didn't score enough to win. I just don't see why one should be considered a failure while the others excused.

What makes Kevin Garnett more of an "alpha dog" than Pippen? When he was with Minnesota he didn't want the big shots. He left that up to troy hudson and sprewell.

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Notice a pattern with Pip fans or to be blunt

[kizut1659]

Jus outta curiousity, what would Pippen stats look like had he played in the 60s?

Arguing with you is like playing a wack-a-mole. Every time your point is disproven, you switch topics. I am not even sure i understand your question - do you mean what if there would be a timemachine and Pippen would be transported back to the 60s? Is that how GOAT ranking should be measured -thats freaking ridiculous! And is there even any proof that Pippen could be an alpha male even in the 60s other than "i am sure he could be"? Could Pippen have led Boston against Lakers of 69 or Miwalkee of 74? And wouldn't your timemachine scenario also take away MJ's toughening up of Pippen, which almost everyone agees made Pippen a much better player? Bottom line - you are being silly again.

[bizil]

But the point is what makes the way Pippen impacted the game on the court any less great than some of the players you mentioned? You mistake a style for results. For instance. Rajon Rondo and Derron Williams. Williams would be considered the best scorer of the two, but not neccesarily the better PG. Id even say Rondo has more impact on the court than Williams.

Your biggest knock on Pippen has always been that he didn't score enough to win. The fact is when all the players you lited lost, they didn't score enough to win. I just don't see why one should be considered a failure while the others excused.

What makes Kevin Garnett more of an "alpha dog" than Pippen? When he was with Minnesota he didn't want the big shots. He left that up to troy hudson and sprewell.

Once again if Pippen's impact is so great then why is he not usually regarded as a top 20 player of all time. Especially given all of his accolades and achievements? U keep avoiding talking about that shit because u KNOW Pip isn't a top 20 player of all time.

If u gave Mailman six rings, he would be regarded as the GOAT PF. Ditto for Chuck. Ditto for KG. Ditto for Dirk. Ditto for Pettit. Ditto for Hayes. U give any of those immortals six rings they are most likely the GOAT PF. The main thing that separates those guys at PF is the fact that Timmy has four rings, while the others have at the most three like McHale. All of those guys were flat out MORE DOMINANT players than Pippen. U give them six rings, shiiiiiit! If Pippen WAS ANYWHERE NEAR JORDAN'S LEVEL, HE WOULD BE A TOP TEN GOAT FLAT OUT!! For Pip to be rated where he is GOAT wise is a telling statement.

If u gave Dominique Wilkins six rings, he would have been regarded as a top 3 GOAT SF. Given he's scored more points than any SF EVER in NBA History, was great for a long time, and redefined the NBA while becoming one of the 5-6 guys to really make the All Star game what it is today. I can go on and on. Pip ACTUALLY has six rings in his prime years as one of the premier players in the world. For him to be rated by most experts historically at the highest right around 30 GOAT wise is a testament right there. Defend ya boy NOW!!

[Calabis]

That steal meant the Jazz had NO CHANCE at even attempting a shot. I brought up that steal because someone statd Pippen didn't have a clutch moment like the one where Hondo steals the ball. There is no reason why one play should be ranked over the other. Unless you have an agenda.



I never stated or implied Pippen defended Magic exclusively from game 2 on. Doesn't make his game 2 contribution any less impactful.

Damn dude you keep moving the yard stick, "the go ahead bucket" really? Jordan hit a go ahead bucket prior to that, yet Pippen makes a jumper and Jordan goes on a clutch tear, yet all you can see is Pip...:oldlol:

So Pippen getting toasted by Worthy didn't hurt the Bulls, but his Game 2 defense on Magic changed the series :facepalm , nevermind that Jordan played out of his f'n mind in Game 2 with 13 straight baskets :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Once again if Pippen's impact is so great then why is he not usually regarded as a top 20 player of all time. Especially given all of his accolades and achievements? U keep avoiding talking about that shit because u KNOW Pip isn't a top 20 player of all time.

If u gave Mailman six rings, he would be regarded as the GOAT PF. Ditto for Chuck. Ditto for KG. Ditto for Dirk. Ditto for Pettit. Ditto for Hayes. U give any of those immortals six rings they are most likely the GOAT PF. The main thing that separates those guys at PF is the fact that Timmy has four rings, while the others have at the most three like McHale. All of those guys were flat out MORE DOMINANT players than Pippen. U give them six rings, shiiiiiit! If Pippen WAS ANYWHERE NEAR JORDAN'S LEVEL, HE WOULD BE A TOP TEN GOAT FLAT OUT!! For Pip to be rated where he is GOAT wise is a telling statement.

If u gave Dominique Wilkins six rings, he would have been regarded as a top 3 GOAT SF. Given he's scored more points than any SF EVER in NBA History, was great for a long time, and redefined the NBA while becoming one of the 5-6 guys to really make the All Star game what it is today. I can go on and on. Pip ACTUALLY has six rings in his prime years as one of the premier players in the world. For him to be rated by most experts historically at the highest right around 30 GOAT wise is a testament right there. Defend ya boy NOW!!
Who are these experts Biz? GMs? Players? Coaches? Those are the only people whose opinion id respect when it comes to ranking players. Can you show me a top 10 list from any of these people? No. Because they don't rank players like we do. In fact, I ve never seen a ranking from a person that's been in the NBA, coached, or GMed. I've seen plenty starting fives, and read their reviews. And a lot of them pick pippen in their alltime starting five



What you're referring to is sports writers and columnists. Neither are experts. They just get payed to write their opinion. The fact you put so much stock in them says a lot about you.

[97 bulls]

Damn dude you keep moving the yard stick, "the go ahead bucket" really? Jordan hit a go ahead bucket prior to that, yet Pippen makes a jumper and Jordan goes on a clutch tear, yet all you can see is Pip...:oldlol:

So Pippen getting toasted by Worthy didn't hurt the Bulls, but his Game 2 defense on Magic changed the series :facepalm , nevermind that Jordan played out of his f'n mind in Game 2 with 13 straight baskets :confusedshrug:
I'm not comparing Pippen to Jordan Calabis. What the **** are you talking about?


And when did Worthy "toast" Pippen?

Game 1 Worthy shot 11/24 and scored 22 pts with Pippen on him

Game 2 Jordan moved over to Worthy and he shot 9/17 and scored 24 pts his best game.

Game 3 Worthy was 9/16 for 19 pts with Pippen on him

Game 4 Worthy was 6/16 for 12 pts with Pippen on him

Pippen did a great job on Worthy


And yes that game two was a series changer.

[RRR3]

PIP PIP HOORAY! Scottie too Hottie! :bowdown:
http://gifsoup.com/view5/3527226/ha-gay-o.gif

[Da_Realist]

I'm not comparing Pippen to Jordan Calabis. What the **** are you talking about?


And when did Worthy "toast" Pippen?

Game 1 Worthy shot 11/24 and scored 22 pts with Pippen on him

Game 2 Jordan moved over to Worthy and he shot 9/17 and scored 24 pts his best game.

Game 3 Worthy was 9/16 for 19 pts with Pippen on him

Game 4 Worthy was 6/16 for 12 pts with Pippen on him

Pippen did a great job on Worthy


And yes that game two was a series changer.

Calabis is right. Worthy was pretty good against Pippen despite the ankle. He was good against Jordan, too, but Jordan didn't guard him as much. I just saw the first 2 and a half games the last couple of days. Even before this topic veered toward this way, I was thinking about how good Worthy was in the 91 Finals and how much I forgot about it. At least for the first 2 and a half games... I plan on watching the rest of Game 3 tonight after everyone goes to bed.

[Legends66NBA7]

I've constantly said this and will say it again: Havlicek is the most underrated player on ISH.

That is probably true, but I would think he's also overrated in a sense when people compare him to a superior player and consider Hondo to be equal in terms of legacy/player (not that this comparison isn't warranted, it very much is).

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think anyone without being biased can say that Hondo is a top 5 SF (at the very least) and while Pip has a case for it, it's def not that strong over guys like Bird, Baylor, Hondo, Erving, now LeBron. Even Barry is above him in my book. Not taking anything from him because those are just amazing players and Pip was also really great, one of my fav players actually.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Once again if Pippen's impact is so great then why is he not usually regarded as a top 20 player of all time. Especially given all of his accolades and achievements? U keep avoiding talking about that shit because u KNOW Pip isn't a top 20 player of all time.

If u gave Mailman six rings, he would be regarded as the GOAT PF. Ditto for Chuck. Ditto for KG. Ditto for Dirk. Ditto for Pettit. Ditto for Hayes. U give any of those immortals six rings they are most likely the GOAT PF. The main thing that separates those guys at PF is the fact that Timmy has four rings, while the others have at the most three like McHale. All of those guys were flat out MORE DOMINANT players than Pippen. U give them six rings, shiiiiiit! If Pippen WAS ANYWHERE NEAR JORDAN'S LEVEL, HE WOULD BE A TOP TEN GOAT FLAT OUT!! For Pip to be rated where he is GOAT wise is a telling statement.

If u gave Dominique Wilkins six rings, he would have been regarded as a top 3 GOAT SF. Given he's scored more points than any SF EVER in NBA History, was great for a long time, and redefined the NBA while becoming one of the 5-6 guys to really make the All Star game what it is today. I can go on and on. Pip ACTUALLY has six rings in his prime years as one of the premier players in the world. For him to be rated by most experts historically at the highest right around 30 GOAT wise is a testament right there. Defend ya boy NOW!!

Very well put

[Legends66NBA7]

I think anyone without being biased can say that Hondo is a top 5 SF (at the very least) and while Pip has a case for it, it's def not that strong over guys like Bird, Baylor, Hondo, Erving, now LeBron. Even Barry is above him in my book. Not taking anything from him because those are just amazing players and Pip was also really great, one of my fav players actually.


You could swap Barry for Hondo in the Top 5, but I agree with the Top 5 sentiments.

[97 bulls]

Calabis is right. Worthy was pretty good against Pippen despite the ankle. He was good against Jordan, too, but Jordan didn't guard him as much. I just saw the first 2 and a half games the last couple of days. Even before this topic veered toward this way, I was thinking about how good Worthy was in the 91 Finals and how much I forgot about it. At least for the first 2 and a half games... I plan on watching the rest of Game 3 tonight after everyone goes to bed.
Worthy scored on Pippen no doubt. But did he toast Pippen? No. His best scoring game was game two. Who guarded him then?

[Calabis]

I'm not comparing Pippen to Jordan Calabis. What the **** are you talking about?

Neither am I, you claimed he led a 15 point comeback, like a one man machine, yet I proved otherwise


And when did Worthy "toast" Pippen?

Game 1 Worthy shot 11/24 and scored 22 pts with Pippen on him

Game 2 Jordan moved over to Worthy and he shot 9/17 and scored 24 pts his best game.

Here you go rewriting history, prior to the first switch on Magic,when Jordan picked up his second foul, Worthy scored 7 points on Pippen in the first quarter, Jordan moved over to Scott(Magic had 0 points at this time) and Levingston came in to guard Worthy, also take note of Jordan's help defense

Game 3 Worthy was 9/16 for 19 pts with Pippen on him

Game 4 Worthy was 6/16 for 12 pts with Pippen on him

Pippen did a great job on Worthy


And yes that game two was a series changer.

:facepalm Yup all because Pippen's defense



Go ahead move the yardstick

[97 bulls]

Go ahead move the yardstick
For most of the game, Jordans primary man.... was Worthy. Levingston played 22 minutes. Worthy played 40. Noones trying to change anything.



Pippen did a great job on Magic, and dropped 20 points and had 10 assissts in the process.

If anything, Worthy didn't toast Pippen. Did he score some points on him? Sure. But over the course of the series? Worthys contribution was minimal

[97 bulls]

As far as that comeback vs Portland? Pippen did lead the charge. When Jordan left they were down Fifteen.. When he came back they were only down by three. You neglect to mention Pippens defense on Drexler. Didn't he force him into commiting two TOs? And I believe Drexler was 1/4 vs Pippen in that pivotal fouth quarter.

[Pushxx]

Hondo.

[Da_Realist]

Worthy scored on Pippen no doubt. But did he toast Pippen? No. His best scoring game was game two. Who guarded him then?

Magic caught Worthy in transition for a layup after beating Pippen down the court

Worthy hits a three after Pippen doubled down on Divac

Worthy took advantage of Pippen gambling on his post up by spinning around and hitting a bank shot

(Pippen switches onto Magic)

Hits a long jumpshot over Grant

Hits an open jumpshot (Grant was defending him)

Hits an open jumpshot (Grant was defending him)

Hits an open jumpshot (Grant was defending him)

Hits an open jumpshot (after getting a rebound on a broken play)

Takes Levingston off the dribble and hits a mid-range jumpshot

Notice who Worthy didn't score on??? MJ was never assigned to guard Worthy and I only saw one broken play where he forced Worthy into a difficult shot that missed. The rest of the time that Pippen guarded Magic, Grant/Levingston guarded Worthy.


Now I just wasted 30 mins outlining this when you could have easily looked at the game yourself before you made your comment. Post shit and then research never seems to be ISH's motto.

[NumberSix]

8 rings

[97 bulls]

Magic caught Worthy in transition for a layup after beating Pippen down the court

Worthy hits a three after Pippen doubled down on Divac

Worthy took advantage of Pippen gambling on his post up by spinning around and hitting a bank shot

(Pippen switches onto Magic)

Hits a long jumpshot over Grant

Hits an open jumpshot (Grant was defending him)

Hits an open jumpshot (Grant was defending him)

Hits an open jumpshot (Grant was defending him)

Hits an open jumpshot (after getting a rebound on a broken play)

Takes Levingston off the dribble and hits a mid-range jumpshot

Notice who Worthy didn't score on??? MJ was never assigned to guard Worthy and I only saw one broken play where he forced Worthy into a difficult shot that missed. The rest of the time that Pippen guarded Magic, Grant/Levingston guarded Worthy.


Now I just wasted 30 mins outlining this when you could have easily looked at the game yourself before you made your comment. Post shit and then research never seems to be ISH's motto.
Ok. I stand corrected. Did he toast Pippen? I've asked you this three times now.

[Da_Realist]

Ok. I stand corrected. Did he toast Pippen? I've asked you this three times now.

I wouldn't say toasted (Pippen still played great D) but his defense didn't bother Worthy as much as you'd expect considering he had a bum wheel. Worthy was a technically sound post up player with excellent footwork, a lightning fast first step and one of the best spin moves the league has seen. He was a very crafty dude. He was quick enough to spin past Pippen and crafty enough to find open spots on the floor when Pippen (or Grant) doubled off of him.

[Calabis]

Calabis is right. Worthy was pretty good against Pippen despite the ankle. He was good against Jordan, too, but Jordan didn't guard him as much. I just saw the first 2 and a half games the last couple of days. Even before this topic veered toward this way, I was thinking about how good Worthy was in the 91 Finals and how much I forgot about it. At least for the first 2 and a half games... I plan on watching the rest of Game 3 tonight after everyone goes to bed.

Lol he is rewriting history for Pippen, Worthy did this on a bad wheel, he also doesn't mention Jordan guarding Magic for the majority of the first quarter, Magic had 0 points on Jordan, when they switch Jordan switches to Scott...when Paxson comes in Jordan guards Divac.

[Calabis]

For most of the game, Jordans primary man.... was Worthy. Levingston played 22 minutes. Worthy played 40. Noones trying to change anything.



Pippen did a great job on Magic, and dropped 20 points and had 10 assissts in the process.

If anything, Worthy didn't toast Pippen. Did he score some points on him? Sure. But over the course of the series? Worthys contribution was minimal

:facepalm Go rewatch the game you have no clue in what you are talking about, if Pip guarded him most of the first quarter at least 8-10 min, and Levingston guarded him the other 22 min(32 of 40 min), Grant also guarded him for a couple of stretches 5-8 min worth, Jordan may have guarded him twice in the 36 minutes he played, resulted in 0 points

he guarded Scott, when he wasn't on Scott he guarded Divac

[Nevaeh]

:facepalm Go rewatch the game you have no clue in what you are talking about, if Pip guarded him most of the first quarter at least 8-10 min, and Levingston guarded him the other 22 min(32 of 40 min), Grant also guarded him for a couple of stretches 5-8 min worth, Jordan may have guarded him twice in the 36 minutes he played, resulted in 0 points

he guarded Scott, when he wasn't on Scott he guarded Divac

Peeps actually act like it's really complicated to just pop in a dvd and review it, like a poster a while back arguing that the 96 Sonics were "so close" to taking the Bulls to 7 games, leaving out the fact that the Bulls had a 10+ point lead with under a minute left in game 6 to win it all.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

You would think a learned poster like 97 Bulls would know better than to argue the points he's making like he's doing, considering he's a "Bulls Fan" who allegedly watched these games already.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Calabis]

Peeps actually act like it's really complicated to just pop in a dvd and review it, like a poster a while back arguing that the 96 Sonics were "so close" to taking the Bulls to 7 games, leaving out the fact that the Bulls had a 10+ point lead with under a minute left in game 6 to win it all.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

You would think a learned poster like 97 Bulls would know better than to argue the points he's making like he's doing, considering he's a "Bulls Fan" who allegedly watched these games already.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Exactly, I bet he's on you tube right now re-watching it and like damn he is guarding Divac..:oldlol:

The reason I kinda recalled this, yet had to review to confirm it, was because I remember screaming at the screen, when Magic drove on Pippen and Jordan took a charge, I thought they were going to call it on MJ which would have been his third foul, also I just recall Jordan guarding Divac a ton in the series

[andgar923]

Calabis is right. Worthy was pretty good against Pippen despite the ankle. He was good against Jordan, too, but Jordan didn't guard him as much. I just saw the first 2 and a half games the last couple of days. Even before this topic veered toward this way, I was thinking about how good Worthy was in the 91 Finals and how much I forgot about it. At least for the first 2 and a half games... I plan on watching the rest of Game 3 tonight after everyone goes to bed.

The biggest myth in NBA history is that Pip is the GOAT defender…. he is not.

He's one of the best, but I've seen him get beat by many players. I undertand that everybody gets beat from time to time, but for the supposed GOAT he gets beat far too much. He wasn't strong or physical enough for post players, and he'd get beat by some perimeter players often as well.

He was great at roaming and helping out due to his length, putting pressure on the ball, but not the one on one stopper people make him out to be…. that was MJ.

[Nevaeh]

Exactly, I bet he's on you tube right now re-watching it and like damn he is guarding Divac..:oldlol:

The reason I kinda recalled this, yet had to review to confirm it, was because I remember screaming at the screen, when Magic drove on Pippen and Jordan took a charge, I thought they were going to call it on MJ which would have been his third foul, also I just recall Jordan guarding Divac a ton in the series

Exactly. It's like someone will post something, and you'll say "did that really happen? Nah, I don't remember that happening..." which prompts you to review it again. Not only do your own memories get validated, but the arguments that someone will make against you, on something that you know you saw, gets shot to hell and back.

97 Is just trippin' right now. He'll be straight once the season starts.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[Da_Realist]

Exactly, I bet he's on you tube right now re-watching it and like damn he is guarding Divac..:oldlol:

The reason I kinda recalled this, yet had to review to confirm it, was because I remember screaming at the screen, when Magic drove on Pippen and Jordan took a charge, I thought they were going to call it on MJ which would have been his third foul, also I just recall Jordan guarding Divac a ton in the series

I remember that play and felt the same way!

Also, to be honest, the Bulls did a lot of late doubling on Magic. Whoever guarded him bodied him up down the court and tried to turn him around as much as possible to take time off the clock. A second guy would usually come from Magic's blind spot to double him while his primary defender tried to turn Magic into it -- usually forcing Magic to give up the ball. A lesser player would have given up tons of turnovers. The Bulls were great at taking out the opposing point guards.

[Nevaeh]

I remember that play and felt the same way!

Also, to be honest, the Bulls did a lot of late doubling on Magic. Whoever guarded him bodied him up down the court and tried to turn him around as much as possible to take time off the clock. A second guy would usually come from Magic's blind spot to double him while his primary defender tried to turn Magic into it -- usually forcing Magic to give up the ball. A lesser player would have given up tons of turnovers. The Bulls were great at taking out the opposing point guards.

That's called good coaching. I can only imagine the amount of careers prime coach Phil and company would end with some of today's point guards. Guys like Lin would be too shook to play.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

He almost exposed Rondo, had Rondo not worked on his mid-range and driving abilities a bit more.

[97 bulls]

Lol he is rewriting history for Pippen, Worthy did this on a bad wheel, he also doesn't mention Jordan guarding Magic for the majority of the first quarter, Magic had 0 points on Jordan, when they switch Jordan switches to Scott...when Paxson comes in Jordan guards Divac.
Nobodies rewriting history. Pippen guarded Magic in game two save for the first seven minutes of the game. And did an amazing Job.

[97 bulls]

Peeps actually act like it's really complicated to just pop in a dvd and review it, like a poster a while back arguing that the 96 Sonics were "so close" to taking the Bulls to 7 games, leaving out the fact that the Bulls had a 10+ point lead with under a minute left in game 6 to win it all.
http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

You would think a learned poster like 97 Bulls would know better than to argue the points he's making like he's doing, considering he's a "Bulls Fan" who allegedly watched these games already.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Lol let it go. I was wrong. Its not the first time, it won't be the last. The fact still remains Pippen shut down Magic. He was clearly flustered. To the point that Divac and Perkins found themselve bringing the ball up the court.

[Nevaeh]

Lol let it go. I was wrong. Its not the first time, it won't be the last. The fact still remains Pippen shut down Magic. He was clearly flustered. To the point that Divac and Perkins found themselve bringing the ball up the court.

It's all good 97. And it's nothing personal either. I've been called out on crap I was wrong on too. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

But dude, even you have to admit that you've been slipping lately, especially on the fact-checking, which should be easy for you, being a Bulls Fan and all.

[ThaRegul8r]

The biggest myth in NBA history is that Pip is the GOAT defender…. he is not.

No, he isn't.

But then again, I've never seen anyone on a basketball message board claim that Pippen was the greatest defensive player of all time (I'll leave open the possibility that I've simply missed it). People have said (and say) he's the greatest perimeter defender of all time, but saying someone is the GOAT perimeter defender and saying they're the GOAT defender are two different things.

And it's impossible for the former to also be the latter, as a perimeter defender cannot affect a game defensively as a big man can due to inherent positional limitations.

[Smoke117]

Scottie Pippen > John Havlicek

[LA Lakers]

Scottie Pippen is the greatest defender Ive seen play the game. Hondo is not.

[andgar923]

No, he isn't.

But then again, I've never seen anyone on a basketball message board claim that Pippen was the greatest defensive player of all time (I'll leave open the possibility that I've simply missed it). People have said (and say) he's the greatest perimeter defender of all time, but saying someone is the GOAT perimeter defender and saying they're the GOAT defender are two different things.

And it's impossible for the former to also be the latter, as a perimeter defender cannot affect a game defensively as a big man can due to inherent positional limitations.

To be fair, you are correct.

Most people do say he's the GOAT perimeter defender. There is some that have claimed that he's the GOAT defender unless they meant the GOAT 'perimeter' defender.

But my main point still stands.

He's not the defensive stopper many make him out to be. He's great, but not the best. Too weak inside and he's been beat on the perimeter players often while he was ON them. Not on switches, not on broken plays, but mano y mano. Everybody gets beat, but with a player of his reputation you wouldn't expect him to get beat as much as he has.

[97 bulls]

It's all good 97. And it's nothing personal either. I've been called out on crap I was wrong on too. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

But dude, even you have to admit that you've been slipping lately, especially on the fact-checking, which should be easy for you, being a Bulls Fan and all.
Lol when have I slipped? Not saying its not true. But I'm curious

[Calabis]

Nobodies rewriting history. Pippen guarded Magic in game two save for the first seven minutes of the game. And did an amazing Job.

I never said Pippen didn't do a great job, but you acting like his defense was the turning point in the series, when I rather think his defense was not as great as you are making it seem. I rather believe the team shooting % which was ridiculous, Paxson and Jordan catching fire, leading to a comfortable lead and the Lakers missing a ton of easy shots had more to do with it.

[LA Lakers]

I cant start a thread for some reason so I have to post this here. Ill try not to get off topic. But here are my personal top 5 defensive specialists. The first five that come to mind when I think defense:

Guards: Gary Payton, Michael Cooper
Forwards: Pippen(greatest defender to play the game), Dennis Rodman
Center: Hakeem The Dream

Those are the guys that come to mind when I think defense. Am I missing anyone? Pretty sure thats a solid starting 5 if you wanna be serious about making a team work for baskets.

[DatAsh]

No, he isn't.

But then again, I've never seen anyone on a basketball message board claim that Pippen was the greatest defensive player of all time (I'll leave open the possibility that I've simply missed it). People have said (and say) he's the greatest perimeter defender of all time, but saying someone is the GOAT perimeter defender and saying they're the GOAT defender are two different things.

And it's impossible for the former to also be the latter, as a perimeter defender cannot affect a game defensively as a big man can due to inherent positional limitations.

A bit off topic, but I've learned a great deal tracking down and reading your posts over the past few weeks.:cheers:

How do you store your data?

[aceman]

To be fair, you are correct.

Most people do say he's the GOAT perimeter defender. There is some that have claimed that he's the GOAT defender unless they meant the GOAT 'perimeter' defender.

But my main point still stands.

He's not the defensive stopper many make him out to be. He's great, but not the best. Too weak inside and he's been beat on the perimeter players often while he was ON them. Not on switches, not on broken plays, but mano y mano. Everybody gets beat, but with a player of his reputation you wouldn't expect him to get beat as much as he has.

what nonsense, all great nba defenders have been beaten a lot in their careers

[Duncan21formvp]

Pretty much the same type of player, the only difference is Havlicek was arguably the best player on a championship team as he won finals mvp.

[kizut1659]

Pretty much the same type of player, the only difference is Havlicek was arguably the best player on a championship team as he won finals mvp.

Not quite the same player. Both were great defenders and had great all around game, but Havlicek was better offensively and much better clutch.

[97 bulls]

Not quite the same player. Both were great defenders and had great all around game, but Havlicek was better offensively and much better clutch.
He was not better offensively. Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


And what makes Hondo more clutch?

[kizut1659]

He was not better offensively. Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


And what makes Hondo more clutch?

Well, their regular season averages are 21/22 and 16/17.5 respectively so its not thesame. During the 68, 69 and 74 championship seasons Havlicek averaged 26-27.4 points in the playoffs.

And dude, about the clutch plays, we already went over this and you've been disproven by myself and a bunch of other posters. Havlicek is known as one of the all-time clutch players. Pippen isn't. Just get over it.

[Freedom Kid7]

He was not better offensively. Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


And what makes Hondo more clutch?
"Havlicek stole the ball!"
Playing great in '68 and '69
Leading a team to a championship in '74 and you could argue for '76
etc

[97 bulls]

Well, their regular season averages are 21/22 and 16/17.5 respectively so its not thesame. During the 68, 69 and 74 championship seasons Havlicek averaged 26-27.4 points in the playoffs.

And dude, about the clutch plays, we already went over this and you've been disproven by myself and a bunch of other posters. Havlicek is known as one of the all-time clutch players. Pippen isn't. Just get over it.
Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRF KhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg

[oolalaa]

He was not better offensively. Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


And what makes Hondo more clutch?

You've got to be a biased clown to actually believe the bolded.

[kizut1659]

Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRF KhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg

LOL you are hilarious. Pippen was not the only one blocking AND this play is very controversial due to the fact that Smith was fouled AND it was game 5 and not game 7. Why do you think Havlicek's stealing the ball is one of the most iconic plays of all time - bias against Pippen, lol? And your other examples of Pippen's clutch plays - the Portland game 6 comeback, defense on Worthy - have already been disproven. Can't you judge admit you are wrong and give up?

[Freedom Kid7]

Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRF KhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg
:kobe:. Last time I checked, clutch game 7 play is much more important than a clutch game 6 play

[1987_Lakers]

Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRF KhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg

This post perfectly demonstrates your bias.

[kizut1659]

:kobe:. Last time I checked, clutch game 7 play is much more important than a clutch game 6 play

It was actually game 5 no?

[Freedom Kid7]

It was actually game 5 no?
Actually it was. Just proves my point further though.

[97 bulls]

LOL you are hilarious. Pippen was not the only one blocking AND this play is very controversial due to the fact that Smith was fouled AND it was game 5 and not game 7. Why do you think Havlicek's stealing the ball is one of the most iconic plays of all time - bias against Pippen, lol? And your other examples of Pippen's clutch plays - the Portland game 6 comeback, defense on Worthy - have already been disproven. Can't you judge admit you are wrong and give up?
Lol those games weren't proven wrong by anyone. We were arguing over who Jordan defended. Not Pippen.

[97 bulls]

:kobe:. Last time I checked, clutch game 7 play is much more important than a clutch game 6 play
Both plays were clutch. But Pippens two blocks were more difficult.

[97 bulls]

You've got to be a biased clown to actually believe the bolded.
What made Hondo a better scorer? If your gonna allude to his PPG, (in 46 minutes) then I'm gonna bring up his atrocious FG%. And don't forget the pace the game was played as well.

But I'm the biased one

[97 bulls]

Pretty much the same type of player, the only difference is Havlicek was arguably the best player on a championship team as he won finals mvp.
Winning a finals MVP doesn't make you the best player on the team. Tg

[kizut1659]

Lol those games weren't proven wrong by anyone. We were arguing over who Jordan defended. Not Pippen.

Yes they were. Other posters proved that 1) Pippen's defense in 1991 finals did not change the course of the series; and 2) Pippen played well but was not THE reason Portland lost game 6 in 1992. None of the plays Pippen made in that series or for that matter any other series (except his dunk against 8-seed Washington in 97) compare to Havlicek's game winning or tying shots in playoffs. Just because you refuse to accept the proof doesn't make it untrue.

[kizut1659]

Winning a finals MVP doesn't make you the best player on the team. Tg

Who was the best player in the 74 series then?

[nycelt84]

Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRF KhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg

The reason why your post is stupid is because it makes no sense. If Havlicek doesn't steal the ball it's very possible that the Celtics go on to lose that series since that was a Game 7 at that. What series saving win that would have led to the Bulls getting eliminated has Pippen ever had? When has Pippen ever had a series as good as Havlicek's 1968 or 1969 Finals series? And do you even know of 10 let alone 5 playoff games Havlickek ever had?

[kizut1659]

What made Hondo a better scorer? If your gonna allude to his PPG, (in 46 minutes) then I'm gonna bring up his atrocious FG%. And don't forget the pace the game was played as well.

But I'm the biased one

Regular season 44 vs. 47% and both shot around 44% in playoffs (Pippen's is marginally higher). Havlicek shot around 10% better in free throws. AND Pippen certainly benefited from the defense being focused on Jordan. Before you bring up Pippen's 94 season (his absolute absolute prime) - check out his 43% percentage in the 94 playoffs. In 1999 playoffs - the last time he tried to carry a heave scoring burden - he shot 33%. But yes, Havlicek was not a great shooter either - which is why he doesn't make top 10 GOAT which otherwise someone with his resume could.

[kizut1659]

Both plays were clutch. But Pippens two blocks were more difficult.

Lol thats why one of the plays is an iconic moment in NBA history and always makes top 10 lists of all-time clutch plays and the other play is better known for the controversy of whether Smith was fouled. I guess everyone except you is blind.

[kizut1659]

The reason why your post is stupid is because it makes no sense. If Havlicek doesn't steal the ball it's very possible that the Celtics go on to lose that series since that was a Game 7 at that. What series saving win that would have led to the Bulls getting eliminated has Pippen ever had? When has Pippen ever had a series as good as Havlicek's 1968 or 1969 Finals series? And do you even know of 10 let alone 5 playoff games Havlickek ever had?

Its not just possible but probable since Philly just came back from like a 7 point deficit with 3 straight baskets an Russel just turned over the ball.

[BlackVVaves]

Winning a finals MVP doesn't make you the best player on the team. Tg

Are you familiar with the 74 post-season?

Yea, might wanna get up on that.

[Freedom Kid7]

Both plays were clutch. But Pippens two blocks were more difficult.
I disagree. There were a hell of a lot of defenders blocking that guy, so even if Pip's block missed, someone else would have blocked him.

Hondo was the only man he had to do an incredible reach out to get that ball.

[97 bulls]

Are you familiar with the 74 post-season?

Yea, might wanna get up on that.
There s a difference between being the best player on a teaam and playing the best in a series.

Was tony parker a better player than tim duncan because he won a finals mvp in 07?

[Da_Realist]

Calabis is right. Worthy was pretty good against Pippen despite the ankle. He was good against Jordan, too, but Jordan didn't guard him as much. I just saw the first 2 and a half games the last couple of days. Even before this topic veered toward this way, I was thinking about how good Worthy was in the 91 Finals and how much I forgot about it. At least for the first 2 and a half games... I plan on watching the rest of Game 3 tonight after everyone goes to bed.


Watched Game 3...and into Game 4...

Off topic but just wanted to say this. That doubling, trapping defense the Bulls put on the Lakers was a g**damn thing of beauty. It looked like the Bulls had 8 players out on the court. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were ridiculous. They all would double somebody on one side of the court and then race back to their man to contest whenever the ball swung around. On any one possession, all three would double and race back to their own man at some point. It looked like a dance. And they did it ALL GAME LONG. Levingston deserves a mention here too cause he moved his feet when he got off the bench. They just wore the Lakers down.

I laugh at those that don't think the Bulls played historical level defense in the first 3-peat. They wore Magic down and forced other players out of their comfort zone to pick up the slack. Perkins is used to posting up and shooting. The Bulls made him have to think like a point forward cause traps were coming at him so hard. Byron Scott is used to spotting up but he had to come out and handle the ball when Magic was forced to give it up. The Bulls energy wore them down physically (look at the rebounding disparity) but that trapping defense wore the Lakers down mentally.

Look at this defense... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_O5Fr62OUw#t=2m09s

[97 bulls]

Watched Game 3...and into Game 4...

Off topic but just wanted to say this. That doubling, trapping defense the Bulls put on the Lakers was a g**damn thing of beauty. It looked like the Bulls had 8 players out on the court. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were ridiculous. They all would double somebody on one side of the court and then race back to their man to contest whenever the ball swung around. On any one possession, all three would double and race back to their own man at some point. It looked like a dance. And they did it ALL GAME LONG. Levingston deserves a mention here too cause he moved his feet when he got off the bench. They just wore the Lakers down.

I laugh at those that don't think the Bulls played historical level defense in the first 3-peat. They wore Magic down and forced other players out of their comfort zone to pick up the slack. Perkins is used to posting up and shooting. The Bulls made him have to think like a point forward cause traps were coming at him so hard. Byron Scott is used to spotting up but he had to come out and handle the ball when Magic was forced to give it up. The Bulls energy wore them down physically (look at the rebounding disparity) but that trapping defense wore the Lakers down mentally.
Yep. Countless times, the Lakers bigs found themselves taking the ball up the court and attempting to initiate a semblance of an offense. Even worse with less than ten seconds on the shot clock. And once Magic gave the ball up (especially in game two) he rarely got it back.

[Da_Realist]

Yep. Countless times, the Lakers bigs found themselves taking the ball up the court and attempting to initiate a semblance of an offense. Even worse with less than ten seconds on the shot clock. And once Magic gave the ball up (especially in game two) he rarely got it back.

The beauty of having guys like Jordan, Pippen and Grant was that they were interchangeable. Young, long, quick, athletic, can defend multiple positions, equally good defensively in full court and half court...and you can change their defensive assignments based on the needs of the team at that particular time. The Dobermans were the right nickname for them.

Just had to say that cause it was bubbling in my head and didn't know where else to put it so I posted it here. lol

[andgar923]

Look at this defense... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_O5Fr62OUw#t=2m09s

I know

[GOBB_Junior]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XrJlj4QcGrI/TZ5_BpxvIEI/AAAAAAAAHOQ/oZagCbBiQiE/s1600/John+Havlicek+SI+Cover+May+9+1966.jpg


I'll give it to John Havlicek. Hondo won an NBA Finals MVP in 1974. He also has more All NBA First, and Second team selections than Pippen.

Pippen's numbers actually went down in the Chicago Bulls 2nd 3 peat while Hondo remained a consistent top performer for the Boston Celtics.

John Havlicek

8

[La Frescobaldi]

Havlicek had crazy legs and crazy lungs. He would just start running about 5 minutes in to a game, and he'd stop running ........ at half time. Then after like 2 minutes in the 3rd ......... he was running. I mean he would run, like a marathon runner just never, ever stopped. He would literally run guys into the ground - great athletes like Julius Erving, Earl Monroe, Gail Goodrich - they just could not keep up with Big John. He outran them all and sent them to the bench out of gas. Truth.

He played the whole court more than any other player I can think of. He'd have insane plays out in the flats on the far side of mid-court.... a couple times a game. True greatness, that's all I can say about Havlicek. True greatness.

Clutch? This is one of the game thrillers that will thrill me my whole life.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/features/moment-1976-greatest-game/suns-celts-76.jpg

Right after that the Suns called a timeout they didn't have and took a technical foul but got 1 second on the clock......... right after that, some guy ran out of the stands and freaking tackled the freaking ref!! lol
What a game that was TRIPLE OT!!

Hondo was the Celtics' best player from 1968 until '74 and maybe '75. Of course keeping in mind he did suffer some serious injuries in through there.

He held that team together when one of the all-time-greatest-players-who-ever-lived Sammy Jones retired in '69... and then the double dose killer on top of that. Bill Russell quit without notice - left the Celtics high and dry without a coach AND without a center.

Red Auerbach had just used all his chips and all his maneuvers and tricky machinations getting JoJo White as a kind of a wishful dream of replacing Sam. But the Celtics organization was caught flat footed when their coach just walked off. Celtics were blown up just like the 98 Bulls.

Havlicek wasn't just glue, he WAS the Celtics. I saw somebody say Cowens was better than Hondo well I can't agree.
Dave was great Hondo was legendary

[NBASTATMAN]

Pippen

Best perimeter defender of all time.. One of the best all around player that ever play the game of basketball.. Absolutely no weakness at all..



Did you even watch Pippen play? Couldn't shoot that well, mentally weak, and not as good a on the ball defender as people say he was. He was the best perimeter team defender. But anyone who watched him defender good scorers on the perimeter would agree with me. He was great at disrupting pg's get their teams into their offenses. But scorers gave him problems.

[DatAsh]

Hondo was the Celtics' best player from 1968 until '74 and maybe '75. Of course keeping in mind he did suffer some serious injuries in through there.



Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.

[La Frescobaldi]

Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.
no. can't agree.

[DatAsh]

no. can't agree.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't jive with the majority opinion at the time.

[fpliii]

Totally forgot about this thread.

[Whoah10115]

Russell was clearly still the Celtic's best player in 68' and 69', though Hondo was the better player in the finals.



I think 68 is arguable, but I think Hondo was definitely better in Russell's last season.

[Round Mound]

[B]Very Hard To Say. I Did Not Watch Hondo Play So I Can

[La Frescobaldi]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't jive with the majority opinion at the time.

I know what you mean about majority opinions. I can think of several presidents I haven't cared for... who were elected by majority opinion. but there's lots of examples in the NBA too:

* Yao Ming was selected as an All Star without even playing, like, any games.
* People think Wade won a ring without any help, the way Nowitzki did.
* People think Jordan won a ring without any help, the way DJ or Rick Barry did.

you know? We could do this all day!

* People think Kobe Bryant was never the best player in the NBA.
* People think Javale McGee is the most athletic tall guy of all time.
* People think Oscar Robertson was better than Magic Johnson.
* People think the referees never shave points even after a referee was incarcerated for shaving points..... and they apparently thought it was just a coincidence that after that there were enormous rules changes about speaking to referees so no hint of scandal would be allowed.
* People think Carmelo Anthony is a better offensive player than KB or Durant ever were.

People who weren't even born yet and never saw a game from the '83 season... think Julius Erving was the best player on the Sixers ring team. Even never heard of "FO FO FO"

Now that one is interesting... possibly even worth a thread.

Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
'nope. you don't.'

[Pushxx]

Hondo was one of the most versatile athletes ever.

[La Frescobaldi]

Hondo was one of the most versatile athletes ever.

How many guys do you know that got drafted by the NBA and the NFL BOTH?

Hondo was.

[Whoah10115]

Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
'nope. you don't.'



Well, you're absolutely right.



BTW, David Robinson is the most athletic tall guy of all-time.

[DatAsh]

I think 68 is arguable, but I think Hondo was definitely better in Russell's last season.

It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.

[QUOTE]"It's a damn shame you have to place so much of a load on one person. They keep saying this guy is the key, that guy is the key. There's only one key

[Whoah10115]

It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.




There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.

[DatAsh]

I know what you mean about majority opinions. I can think of several presidents I haven't cared for... who were elected by majority opinion. but there's lots of examples in the NBA too:

* Yao Ming was selected as an All Star without even playing, like, any games.
* People think Wade won a ring without any help, the way Nowitzki did.
* People think Jordan won a ring without any help, the way DJ or Rick Barry did.

you know? We could do this all day!

* People think Kobe Bryant was never the best player in the NBA.
* People think Javale McGee is the most athletic tall guy of all time.
* People think Oscar Robertson was better than Magic Johnson.
* People think the referees never shave points even after a referee was incarcerated for shaving points..... and they apparently thought it was just a coincidence that after that there were enormous rules changes about speaking to referees so no hint of scandal would be allowed.
* People think Carmelo Anthony is a better offensive player than KB or Durant ever were.

People who weren't even born yet and never saw a game from the '83 season... think Julius Erving was the best player on the Sixers ring team. Even never heard of "FO FO FO"


I agree with the majority opinion not always being right, but this was a very large majority opinion.

Also, the bolded definitely were not/ are not majority opinions, and all star voting has more to do with popularity than it does people picking the players they actually think are the best.




Now that one is interesting... possibly even worth a thread.

Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
'nope. you don't.'

Agreed

[DatAsh]

There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.

Based on what though? The stats, as well as the opinions of players and coaches at the time, strongly disagree with that. What evidence do you have that's forcing you to ignore all that and come to a different conclusion? The box score stats?

Part of that reverence comes from the older generation who actually saw him play - or played with or against him - and knew that his impact really did transcend his stats.

Also, if you doubt Russell's defensive impact in 1969, consider the fact that the Celtics' DRtg dropped 10 absolute points, 7.4 relative points, and they lost 18.5 defensive win shares when he left.




Year DRtg Place Diff From Mean Diff from 2nd DWS SRS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1969 88.4 1/14 -6.8 -2.8 40.6 +5.35
1970 98.5 7/16 +0.6 +2.3 22.1 -1.59


Most of those quotes I posted about other players - including Hondo himself - and coaches recognizing Russell as the Celtic's best player were from 1969.

[feyki]

3 times led his team to the nba championship . Averaged 29-8-6 at his peak . And one of the greatest perimeter defender all time .