Is 97 bulls making people hate Scottie Pippen on ISH?

[1987_Lakers]

According to him Pippen is the 2nd coming of Jesus and it rubs alot of people the wrong way.

[IGotACoolStory]

No. But I'm starting to like the 97 Bulls less because he is now synonymous with that team in my head.

But yah, the guy is incredibly underrated as a **** sucker on this site. Definitely up there with some of the Kobe, MJ, LeBron, and Wilt stans.

[FreezingTsmoove]

According to Kobe143 pippen is a better driver than Lebron and Wade

[Legends66NBA7]

Is 97 bulls making people hate Scottie Pippen on ISH?

Nah, even if he's being a homer, I can't hate on Pippen because someone else is being biased.

We have cases like this too:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135476

Old topic, but door swings both ways.

[lilgodfather1]

It's about damn time someone overrates Scottie.

[get these NETS]

if anything , he's opening eyes about the wrong label that pippen had...namely robin.....

pippen was clearly a lesser talent and competitor to MJ, BUT....he was a better fit for that team than just another high volume scorer of that era.....

great complementary player...a la bobby jones....michael cooper...mavs 2011 version of jason kidd

[Dwade305]

He almost made me hate Rodman with that Rodman>Malone BS

[97 bulls]

He almost made me hate Rodman with that Rodman>Malone BS
I never said that.

[Dwade305]

I never said that.

You or SuperPippen, cant really tell the difference

[noosaman]

He hates white players. That much is certain.

[coin24]

Pippen is really Underrated on here IMO... Too many Miami LeBrons fans that know nothing about the NBA "pre decision"....

[97 bulls]

He hates white players. That much is certain.
Lol. Its one thing to have a roast in my honor. Call me dumb, call me a homer or biased.


But I'm not a racist. I'm sure 87 Lakers will vouch for that. I feel John Stockton is a better PG than Magic Johhnson.

[Doranku]

Lol. Its one thing to have a roast in my honor. Call me dumb, call me a homer or biased.


But I'm not a racist. I'm sure 87 Lakers will vouch for that. I feel John Stockton is a better PG than Magic Johhnson.

Oh, so you aren't a racist, you're just a moron.

Got it.

[scandisk_]

feel John Stockton is a better PG than Magic Johhnson.

How? We're listening.....

[Sarcastic]

Lol. Its one thing to have a roast in my honor. Call me dumb, call me a homer or biased.


But I'm not a racist. I'm sure 87 Lakers will vouch for that. I feel John Stockton is a better PG than Magic Johhnson.


http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii111/bezell1/office-no.gif

[Nevaeh]

Oh, so you aren't a racist, you're just a moron.

Got it.

And he only thinks that dumb sh!t to bring Magic down, in order to prop up Pippen as a Point Guard-Point Foward on Magic's level.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

97 Bulls= The Official Jlauber of Pip fans. Congrats.
:cheers:

[KOBE143]

I dont think he's making people hate Scottie Pippen.. All the things that he said about Pippen, I believe were all true.. Scottie was really underrated here in ISH and sometimes it becomes unbearable the way Jordan/LeBron stans overrate him for their own agenda.. Im not even a fan of Scottie, Im just appreciating greatness.. To all people that hate him becoz of a certain poster are not really a fan of basketball.. They are just hater or maybe they're just plain stupid.. Why hate a player becoz of his fans.. :confusedshrug:

[Dragonyeuw]

Im not even a fan of Scottie, Im just appreciating greatness..

Via watching youtube clips?

Speaking generally, Pippen has emerged as a lightning rod for the Jordan/Kobe debate. Scottie is either overrated or underrated depending on which side of Jordan/Kobe argument you sit on. For my money, calling him a top 10 player at his peak is a fair assessment. Calling him the 2nd best player( I usually hear that from the Kobe fans, in order to discredit MJ) isn't imho. If you're calling him second best( after MJ), then you're basically saying that he was better than Hakeem, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Shaq, Barkley. Was he?

At best, I'd say he was 4th in 94 behind Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, same as in 95. In 1996, he was having an MVP type season but was he second best overall?

[Asukal]

I dont think he's making people hate Scottie Pippen.. All the things that he said about Pippen, I believe were all true.. Scottie was really underrated here in ISH and sometimes it becomes unbearable the way Jordan/LeBron stans overrate him for their own agenda.. Im not even a fan of Scottie, Im just appreciating greatness.. To all people that hate him becoz of a certain poster are not really a fan of basketball.. They are just hater or maybe they're just plain stupid.. Why hate a player becoz of his fans.. :confusedshrug:

And what do we call you Kobe stans who prop up Pippen to degrade MJ and say Kobe is the GOAT? Fan of basketball? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[97 bulls]

And what do we call you Kobe stans who prop up Pippen to degrade MJ and say Kobe is the GOAT? Fan of basketball? :roll: :roll: :roll:
That's a reply to Jordan fans seeing as how they started this idiotic mindset.

The pecking order of who the best player was on championship teams was never this relevant until Kobe came on the scene.

Kareem has always received full credit for his championships. Including the two or three that he clearly was nowhere near the best player on the team.

I've never seen James Worthy called a "Robin". Or Dumars, Mchale, or Havlicek. And they all were never looked down upon for not being the best player on their team. Even Pippen until Jordan fans decided that Kobes championships with the Lakers in the early 00s didn't have much weight because of Shaq.


At one time, teams were compared to each other and argued over whose best. Now teammates are pitted against each other. Thanks in large part to Jordan fans.


I've come to realize Jordan fans are cancers. And he has a huge following.

[97 bulls]

And he only thinks that dumb sh!t to bring Magic down, in order to prop up Pippen as a Point Guard-Point Foward on Magic's level.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

97 Bulls= The Official Jlauber of Pip fans. Congrats.
:cheers:
Why is my view on Stockton bringing down Magic?

[97 bulls]

How? We're listening.....
Because Stockton was the better defender, had a much better jumpshot and did more with less.

Neither were great at slashing to the basket, but Magic is better. And Magic had a better postgame.


Overall, Stockton was more of a prototypical PG

[SuperPippen]

You or SuperPippen, cant really tell the difference

I have no recollection of saying anything with any similarity to what you posted.

[SuperPippen]

I dont think he's making people hate Scottie Pippen.. All the things that he said about Pippen, I believe were all true.. Scottie was really underrated here in ISH and sometimes it becomes unbearable the way Jordan/LeBron stans overrate him for their own agenda.. Im not even a fan of Scottie, Im just appreciating greatness.. To all people that hate him becoz of a certain poster are not really a fan of basketball.. They are just hater or maybe they're just plain stupid.. Why hate a player becoz of his fans.. :confusedshrug:


I'm not sure of the feasibility of something being more ironic than this.

[SpecialQue]

That's a reply to Jordan fans seeing as how they started this idiotic mindset.

The pecking order of who the best player was on championship teams was never this relevant until Kobe came on the scene.

Kareem has always received full credit for his championships. Including the two or three that he clearly was nowhere near the best player on the team.

I've never seen James Worthy called a "Robin". Or Dumars, Mchale, or Havlicek. And they all were never looked down upon for not being the best player on their team. Even Pippen until Jordan fans decided that Kobes championships with the Lakers in the early 00s didn't have much weight because of Shaq.


At one time, teams were compared to each other and argued over whose best. Now teammates are pitted against each other. Thanks in large part to Jordan fans.


I've come to realize Jordan fans are cancers. And he has a huge following.

I would like to see someone explain how this opinion is wrong. The whole argument over who "the man" on a championship team is is fvcking embarrassing. Are people such ballhuggers that they only support players and not their teams anymore?

[97 bulls]

I would like to see someone explain how this opinion is wrong. The whole argument over who "the man" on a championship team is is fvcking embarrassing. Are people such ballhuggers that they only support players and not their teams anymore?
It so stupid. I said this in another thread, players should get full credit for their championships if the team they were on couldn't win without them. Not replaced, but eliminated from the team. Guys like Bill Wennington and Randy Brown shouldn't be held in the same regard as Jordan. But Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, maybe even Kukoc deserve full credit.

The same with Shaq, Kobe, Fox, etc.


Magic, Jabaar, Worthy, Cooper, Scott


Bird, Mchale, Parrish, Johnson

You get the picture.

[upside24]

It so stupid. I said this in another thread, players should get full credit for their championships if the team they were on couldn't win without them. Not replaced, but eliminated from the team. Guys like Bill Wennington and Randy Brown shouldn't be held in the same regard as Jordan. But Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, maybe even Kukoc deserve full credit.

The same with Shaq, Kobe, Fox, etc.


Magic, Jabaar, Worthy, Cooper, Scott


Bird, Mchale, Parrish, Johnson

You get the picture.
This. Pip was instrumental to the Bull's success yet his rings don't seem to count. I understand he played with the greatest but Jordan wasn't winning shit until he got Pip.

[Money 23]

97 bulls makes me resent Pippen, the way pauk / lilgodfather1 make me resent LeBron, and the way eliteballer / AlphaDog24 and countless others make me resent Kobe, the same way StateofMind12 makes me resent Yao and hype T-Mac.

All of these people have extreme bias that works against their cause.

[Legends66NBA7]

I understand he played with the greatest but Jordan wasn't winning shit until he got Pip.

Just for the record, your just talking about titles here, right ? Not just getting out of the first round...

[Calabis]

LMAO...this guy will never make me hate PIP, I modeled my game after his on a lower level of play. 97 Bulls problem is, is that he takes 1994 and plays what ifs...Pip is what he is.... a great compliment to a scorer, nothing more, nothing less...people shit on Nique(30/7/3), but when was he ever with a teammate of Jordan's caliber, in fact how many guys had that luxury? Kobe with Shaq early on, but even he showed he was better player than Pip when left as Alpha Dog

97Bulls talking about Pip, in the same breath as Jordan, Bird and Magic:facepalm gtfoh with that garbage...Pip is overrated on ISH...that's fact

[Calabis]

I dont think he's making people hate Scottie Pippen.. All the things that he said about Pippen, I believe were all true.. Scottie was really underrated here in ISH and sometimes it becomes unbearable the way Jordan/LeBron stans overrate him for their own agenda.. Im not even a fan of Scottie, Im just appreciating greatness.. To all people that hate him becoz of a certain poster are not really a fan of basketball.. They are just hater or maybe they're just plain stupid.. Why hate a player becoz of his fans.. :confusedshrug:

No your are a fan of Kobe and are like other kobe apostles, you overrate him.... can't even believe u try to sound unbiased after reading some of your shitty posts :facepalm

[upside24]

Just for the record, your just talking about titles here, right ? Not just getting out of the first round...
Yeah, I'm just talking about titles but his first playoff series win was in 88 against Cleveland with Pip on the team. Jordan owned that series though averaging 45 a game.

[millwad]

Yeah, I'm just talking about titles but his first playoff series win was in 88 against Cleveland with Pip on the team. Jordan owned that series though averaging 45 a game.

This.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, I'm just talking about titles but his first playoff series win was in 88 against Cleveland with Pip on the team. Jordan owned that series though averaging 45 a game.

Not only the 45 a game by Jordan, but Charles Oakley contributed more in that series than Pippen did.

If there are posters out there (not you offcourse) that want to say "Well Jordan didn't get out of the first round without Pippen" at least look at the context of it all and give Oakley his due that year over Pippen.

[Legends66NBA7]

No your are a fan of Kobe and are like other kobe apostles, you overrate him.... can't even believe u try to sound unbiased after reading some of your shitty posts :facepalm

Don't bother.

His second account here and he's obviously a gimmick bent on making Kobe stans look more insane and dumber. I've not believed one word he's typed on here and it's pretty obvious he's trolling to get a rise out off most logical fans/Kobe detractors.

[Calabis]

This.

But, but but Pip avg 10.6 pts that series, much bigger factor than Jordan:oldlol:

[Calabis]

Not only the 45 a game by Jordan, but Charles Oakley contributed more in that series than Pippen did.

If there are posters out there (not you offcourse) that want to say "Well Jordan didn't get out of the first round without Pippen" at least look at the context of it all and give Oakley his due that year over Pippen.

This^^^^^Grant as well

:applause:

[upside24]

Not only the 45 a game by Jordan, but Charles Oakley contributed more in that series than Pippen did.

If there are posters out there (not you offcourse) that want to say "Well Jordan didn't get out of the first round without Pippen" at least look at the context of it all and give Oakley his due that year over Pippen.
Exactly.

[Smoke117]

Whats probably making people hate Scottie Pippen is the enormous amount of god damn threads MADE ABOUT HIM. Every day there seems to be some new thread that has his name in it and 97 bulls isn't the one making the threads. He's my favorite player of all time, but you don't see me making a thread about him every single ****ing day or if ever. I may have once I think a long time ago. Most of the people are kobe stans or have some agenda or another and it is always "scottie pippen vs yada yada" or something stupid and idiotic and not even really worth discussing.

Everyone is bias towards their favorite players or values different things. I don't even argue when it comes to Pippen anymore for the most part. I have my opinion and people have their own. I see no reason to go back and forth forever. I think 97 bulls that you just need to agree to disagree and just not get into arguing so much, but no it isn't really him, but the fact that so many stupid shit threads come up on this board that some how have Pippen in them that are making people sour to him more than anything.

[97 bulls]

97 bulls makes me resent Pippen, the way pauk / lilgodfather1 make me resent LeBron, and the way eliteballer / AlphaDog24 and countless others make me resent Kobe, the same way StateofMind12 makes me resent Yao and hype T-Mac.

All of these people have extreme bias that works against their cause.
We all have an opinion on how we see things. You have serious issues if my preference forces you to resent a player you claim to like.

[scandisk_]

Neither MJ nor Pip are overrated.. Jesus :oldlol: Teh F*ck Bulls fans this calls for a group hug :banana:

[Da_Realist]

Whats probably making people hate Scottie Pippen is the enormous amount of god damn threads MADE ABOUT HIM. Every day there seems to be some new thread that has his name in it and 97 bulls isn't the one making the threads. He's my favorite player of all time, but you don't see me making a thread about him every single ****ing day or if ever. I may have once I think a long time ago. Most of the people are kobe stans or have some agenda or another and it is always "scottie pippen vs yada yada" or something stupid and idiotic and not even really worth discussing.

Everyone is bias towards their favorite players or values different things. I don't even argue when it comes to Pippen anymore for the most part. I have my opinion and people have their own. I see no reason to go back and forth forever. I think 97 bulls that you just need to agree to disagree and just not get into arguing so much, but no it isn't really him, but the fact that so many stupid shit threads come up on this board that some how have Pippen in them that are making people sour to him more than anything.

This.

Pippen is a lightning rod. Most here don't appreciate Pippen but use him in agenda-filled threads. I doubt most of the kids on here even saw him play. Some guy was here last week saying what he remembered when he was 6 years old and how he focused on Pippen even when he wasn't in the camera angle...and didn't notice what Jordan was doing back in 88 :wtf:

You gotta know what to ignore.

[97 bulls]

Whats probably making people hate Scottie Pippen is the enormous amount of god damn threads MADE ABOUT HIM. Every day there seems to be some new thread that has his name in it and 97 bulls isn't the one making the threads. He's my favorite player of all time, but you don't see me making a thread about him every single ****ing day or if ever. I may have once I think a long time ago. Most of the people are kobe stans or have some agenda or another and it is always "scottie pippen vs yada yada" or something stupid and idiotic and not even really worth discussing.

Everyone is bias towards their favorite players or values different things. I don't even argue when it comes to Pippen anymore for the most part. I have my opinion and people have their own. I see no reason to go back and forth forever. I think 97 bulls that you just need to agree to disagree and just not get into arguing so much, but no it isn't really him, but the fact that so many stupid shit threads come up on this board that some how have Pippen in them that are making people sour to him more than anything.
I'm arguing more of a philosophy than anything else. Actually, there's a few.


Basketball has always been a team game. No player has ever won a championship on their own.

Players dominate games in different ways. I've seen players dominate games with their passing, rebounding, scoring or defensively.

Comparisons shouldn't be made without proper context. Trying to compare 00/90s stats to 80s, 60s, and 70s is wrong.


Drawing conclusions based solely on stats is wrong.

[Nevaeh]

That's a reply to Jordan fans seeing as how they started this idiotic mindset.

The pecking order of who the best player was on championship teams was never this relevant until Kobe came on the scene.

Kareem has always received full credit for his championships. Including the two or three that he clearly was nowhere near the best player on the team.

I've never seen James Worthy called a "Robin". Or Dumars, Mchale, or Havlicek. And they all were never looked down upon for not being the best player on their team. Even Pippen until Jordan fans decided that Kobes championships with the Lakers in the early 00s didn't have much weight because of Shaq.


At one time, teams were compared to each other and argued over whose best. Now teammates are pitted against each other. Thanks in large part to Jordan fans.


I've come to realize Jordan fans are cancers. And he has a huge following.

I get your point 97, but you're also being disingenuous by trying to hang the fault of individual players being compared on Jordan fans. We weren't the ones saying dumb sh!t like "Kobe>Jordan" after he won rings with Shaq, for example, while not even being the best player on his team during that time.

Jordan Fans reactions were counter attacks to the bull that these unlearned idiots decided to spew as gospel and fact, so much so to the point that they started calling Kobe "God" simply because they knew Jordan already had that same nickname back in the 90s.

Had they just appreciated their Boy, stfu and
showed some humility, like every other Player-Fan here, they wouldn't have had their boy exposed like he was thread after thread. Like you said:



The pecking order of who the best player was on championship teams was never this relevant until Kobe came on the scene.

100% agreed.

[97 bulls]

LMAO...this guy will never make me hate PIP, I modeled my game after his on a lower level of play. 97 Bulls problem is, is that he takes 1994 and plays what ifs...Pip is what he is.... a great compliment to a scorer, nothing more, nothing less...people shit on Nique(30/7/3), but when was he ever with a teammate of Jordan's caliber, in fact how many guys had that luxury? Kobe with Shaq early on, but even he showed he was better player than Pip when left as Alpha Dog

97Bulls talking about Pip, in the same breath as Jordan, Bird and Magic:facepalm gtfoh with that garbage...Pip is overrated on ISH...that's fact
This is a classic agenda filled post. It covers all the bases of what's wrong with some of thes people.

He totally eliminates context. How? First he brings up Wilkins. Basically saying Wilkins never had a teammate as great as Jordan. And I agree. But Wilkins also never had a teammate as great as Pippen. It goes both ways Calabis. Hell Wilkins has never had a teaammate as good as Rodman.


Then you bring up the silly alpha dog nonsense. This is used in an effort to say Pippen isn't a leader. And he get offended when 94 is brought up. But his agenda is clear. Notice how he excuses Wilkins even though in 9 seasons leading the Hawks he managed to get no further than Pippen did in 94 (one season). Why does Wilkins get a pass?


Or even Kobe. Why is Kobe more of an alpha dog than Pippen? When Shaq left, the Lakers were atrocious to mediocre. Until they were gifted Pau Gasol, and ended up having the most talented team in the league. But Pippens supposed to do what Kobe did in one season? When Bryant needed a lot of help and time? This isn't a double standard?


I'm not putting Pippen on Jordans level. I've stated repeatedly I feel Jordan is the greatest ever. And thus is the benchmark by which all other players are judged. Now, all I said was compare the team Pippen led in 94, to the team Jordan led in 98. And mind you contrary to popular belief, that 94 team was not the exact same team that won the championship in 93 minus Jordan. Paxson and Cartwright played sparringly King was traded for Longley, Scott Williams missed half the season due to injury, and trent tucker was gone. For the most part, both teams had the same roster. Except the team Jordan led in 98, had a better version of Kukoc, Longley was better, Rodman was an upgrade over Grant, Harper was an upgrade over Armstrong. But the Pippen led team had a better record.

The 95 team? Very similar to the teams Wade had in 09 and Bryant had in 07. What makes their accomplishments any less impressive?


The constant double standard is most frustanig. And Calabis won't respond, he will just ignore this and spout the same nonsense in another thread. Why? Because he's not looking for the truth or a common ground. He's blinded by his love for Jordan.

[TheBigVeto]

I feel John Stockton is a better PG than Magic Johnson.


That is the only good post you ever made.

[Da_Realist]

Now, all I said was compare the team Pippen led in 94, to the team Jordan led in 98. And mind you contrary to popular belief, that 94 team was not the exact same team that won the championship in 93 minus Jordan. Paxson and Cartwright played sparringly King was traded for Longley, Scott Williams missed half the season due to injury, and trent tucker was gone. For the most part, both teams had the same roster. Except the team Jordan led in 98, had a better version of Kukoc, Longley was better, Rodman was an upgrade over Grant, Harper was an upgrade over Armstrong. But the Pippen led team had a better record.

We've had this discussion before...with quotes and excerpts that the Bulls in 98 (sans Pippen) were just trying to maintain until the playoffs. Jordan geared himself for the playoffs by slowing down his workouts and pacing himself. Phil Jackson refused to have two-a-days to give the old Bulls some time to rest. They were just trying to maintain until Pippen returned. They had absolutely nothing to prove in the regular season. Totally different focus than the 94 Bulls. You read the post...and somehow forgot? And why didn't you know that anyway?

[Da_Realist]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7726960&postcount=145

[TheBigVeto]

He doesn't make me hate Scottie Pippen. Pippen is a great player, one of the best SFs of all time (top 10).

Basically you just have to treat him and his posts as an extremely biased and idiotic, and you'll be fine.

[97 bulls]

We've had this discussion before...with quotes and excerpts that the Bulls in 98 (sans Pippen) were just trying to maintain until the playoffs. Jordan geared himself for the playoffs by slowing down his workouts and pacing himself. Phil Jackson refused to have two-a-days to give the old Bulls some time to rest. They were just trying to maintain until Pippen returned. They had absolutely nothing to prove in the regular season. Totally different focus than the 94 Bulls. You read the post...and somehow forgot? And why didn't you know that anyway?
I remember. And I'm not arguing that. I was impressed with the fact that they could do so well while "pacing" themselves. Shows how great that team was. But regardless, they weren't that far off. Pacing themselves is not the same as not trying at all. How many more wins would a full on effort net? 3? 4? Hardly anything that would counter my point.

[Da_Realist]

I remember. And I'm not arguing that. I was impressed with the fact that they could do so well while "pacing" themselves. Shows how great that team was. But regardless, they weren't that far off. Pacing themselves is not the same as not trying at all. How many more wins would a full on effort net? 3? 4? Hardly anything that would counter my point.

Then why compare two teams where one totally focused on maximizing the regular season and the other didn't?

[DMAVS41]

Yes. Mainly because he has lost his mind and thinks Pippen was a better player than Magic.

:lol

[Da_Realist]

And weren't the Bulls on a 55 win pace in 98 when Pippen returned? I still don't see your point. Dennis, MJ and Ron Harper were in their mid-30's

[97 bulls]

Then why compare two teams where one totally focused on maximizing the regular season and the other didn't?
I think you're putting a little too much stock in a teams motivation. No team can maintain that high of a level every night for roughly seven months, or a team pace themselves to the point that there's that much of a difference. Ill ask you again, how many games do the 98 bulls get if they're "motivated"?

[Da_Realist]

I think you're putting a little too much stock in a teams motivation. No team can maintain that high of a level every night for roughly seven months, or a team pace themselves to the point that there's that much of a difference. Ill ask you again, how many games do the 98 bulls get if they're "motivated"?

How would I know that?

[97 bulls]

And weren't the Bulls on a 55 win pace in 98 when Pippen returned? I still don't see your point. Dennis, MJ and Ron Harper were in their mid-30's
To quote some of the adjectives used in the same book you used for Rodman, Jordan Kukoc, and Harper. "Young", "smart", "mentally tough" "supreme athletes". Even without Pippen the Bulls were a great team.

[97 bulls]

How would I know that?
How bout in your opinion.

[Da_Realist]

How bout in your opinion.

I don't know. I know they were on the same win pace as Pippen's Bulls in 94 despite pacing themselves because their major players were between 34 and 36 years old. Regular season wins are just to solidify a good position in the playoffs. The 94 Bulls needed to give themselves every advantage so they set out for as good a record as they could get. The 98 Bulls knew they were a playoff team, knew they could win on the road and knew they could hold down the fort until Pippen came back. Just not the same thing.

[Round Mound]

if anything , he's opening eyes about the wrong label that pippen had...namely robin.....

pippen was clearly a lesser talent and competitor to MJ, BUT....he was a better fit for that team than just another high volume scorer of that era.....

great complementary player...a la bobby jones....michael cooper...mavs 2011 version of jason kidd

:facepalm Now There U Are Underrating and U Know It. Calling Pippen a "Complentary Player?" :banghead: :hammerhead:. Pippen was a Superstar in his Own Right. Not the Best In the League but Was in the Top 6-10 in Almost All Aspects from 91 to 98

[97 bulls]

I don't know. I know they were on the same win pace as Pippen's Bulls in 94 despite pacing themselves because their major players were between 34 and 36 years old. Regular season wins are just to solidify a good position in the playoffs. The 94 Bulls needed to give themselves every advantage so they set out for as good a record as they could get. The 98 Bulls knew they were a playoff team, knew they could win on the road and knew they could hold down the fort until Pippen came back. Just not the same thing.
Lol come on bro stop dancing around my question. Aren't you "Da Realists"? How many wins?

As far as their age, go back and reread your own link.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7726960&postcount=145

[97 bulls]

:facepalm Now There U Are Underrating and U Know It. Calling Pippen a "Complentary Player?" :banghead: :hammerhead:. Pippen was a Superstar in his Own Right. Not the Best In the League but Was in the Top 6-10 in Almost All Aspects from 91 to 98
I think he was giving examples of what a great complimentary player is

[Round Mound]

I think he was giving examples of what a great complimentary player is

Ok....but Pippen was No JUST YOUR "AVERAGE" COMPLEMENTARY PLAYER. Thats All.

[Da_Realist]

Lol come on bro stop dancing around my question. Aren't you "Da Realists"? How many wins?

As far as their age, go back and reread your own link.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7726960&postcount=145

I truly don't understand how it's so hard for you to understand "I don't know". How would I know that? The Bulls were an older team trying to stay healthy throughout the regular season and start clicking by the playoffs. Why would they max out for regular season wins -- especially when they were on a 55 win pace before Pippen returned?

I'm not just saying "I don't know", I'm saying "It doesn't matter". They weren't going to max out in the regular season because it wasn't as important for them as it was for the 94 Bulls.

[KOBE143]

Why Bulls/Jordan fans hate Scottie Pippen so much and like to overrate him? His the reason why you have 6 titles.. :confusedshrug:

[Boston C's]

Why Bulls/Jordan fans hate Scottie Pippen so much and like to overrate him? His the reason why you have 6 titles.. :confusedshrug:

so shaq and gasol are the reason kobe has 5 :confusedshrug:

[SourPatchKids]

http://gifs.gifbin.com/092011/1316448728_guinness_world_record__worlds_longuest_ tongue.gif

[97 bulls]

I truly don't understand how it's so hard for you to understand "I don't know". How would I know that? The Bulls were an older team trying to stay healthy throughout the regular season and start clicking by the playoffs. Why would they max out for regular season wins -- especially when they were on a 55 win pace before Pippen returned?

I'm not just saying "I don't know", I'm saying "It doesn't matter". They weren't going to max out in the regular season because it wasn't as important for them as it was for the 94 Bulls.
Of course you don't know. Neither do I. This is all speculation. You also don't know how Stockton would fair if he had a team like Magic had. But that does keep you from voincing your opinion. Based on your stance your saying they would've won more games had they not "paced" themselves. Give an estimate. They were 24-11 without Pippen. And pacing themselves. How many wins would effort give them?

[Da_Realist]

Of course you don't know. Neither do I. This is all speculation. You also don't know how Stockton would fair if he had a team like Magic had. But that does keep you from voincing your opinion. Based on your stance your saying they would've won more games had they not "paced" themselves. Give an estimate. They were 24-11 without Pippen. And pacing themselves. How many wins would effort give them?

Not the same thing. I think Magic's better but I couldn't tell you how many assists Magic would have if he played on the Jazz. Or how many Stockton would have playing with the Lakers. You're not asking which team is better, you're asking how many wins a team would have over a regular season of 82 games with a thousand different variables that can affect the outcome of any of them -- motivation being just one of them. It's stupid. Regular season wins are fickle.

Didn't the Houston Rockets win like 25 in a row a few years ago when they couldn't beat themselves out of a paper bag?

[97 bulls]

Not the same thing. I think Magic's better but I couldn't tell you how many assists Magic would have if he played on the Jazz. Or how many Stockton would have playing with the Lakers. You're not asking which team is better, you're asking how many wins a team would have over a regular season of 82 games with a thousand different variables that can affect the outcome of any of them -- motivation being just one of them. It's stupid. Regular season wins are fickle.

Didn't the Houston Rockets win like 25 in a row a few years ago when they couldn't beat themselves out of a paper bag?
The only real way you can determine which player is better (players of that magnitude mind you) is to put them in the same position. Other wise you have to try to factor in the hundreds of thousands of variables that plays out over the course of a career. But you have no problem forming an opinion there.


Don't worry about answering my question bro. The fact that your hell bent on refusing to give your opinion tells me and everyone reading this all we need to know.


To summarize, the 98 team had more talent but paced themselves. The 94 team had less talent, but played like they had something to prove. The result the 94 team had a slightly better win percentage. Basically a wash

[Da_Realist]

The only real way you can determine which player is better (players of that magnitude mind you) is to put them in the same position. Other wise you have to try to factor in the hundreds of thousands of variables that plays out over the course of a career. But you have no problem forming an opinion there.


Don't worry about answering my question bro. The fact that your hell bent on refusing to give your opinion tells me and everyone reading this all we need to know.


To summarize, the 98 team had more talent but paced themselves. The 94 team had less talent, but played like they had something to prove. The result the 94 team had a slightly better win percentage. Basically a wash

I think the 98 Bulls would have gone on a couple of 20+ win streaks to finish off the season if they were going all out. They would have probably won about 65 games. How the hell would I know?

ISH :facepalm

[97 bulls]

I think the 98 Bulls would have gone on a couple of 20+ win streaks to finish off the season if they were going all out. They would have probably won about 65 games. How the hell would I know?

ISH :facepalm
Lol right. This isn't one of your finest moments bro. Youvve shown me a lot of nothing.

[Calabis]

[QUOTE]This is a classic agenda filled post. It covers all the bases of what's wrong with some of thes people.

Calling the kettle black, especially when you were hell bent on putting Pippen on Bird and Magic status, I'm sure I'm not the only one who witnessed this


He totally eliminates context. How? First he brings up Wilkins. Basically saying Wilkins never had a teammate as great as Jordan. And I agree. But Wilkins also never had a teammate as great as Pippen. It goes both ways Calabis. Hell Wilkins has never had a teaammate as good as Rodman.

The point of me bringing up Wilkins, is my way of saying I don't think Pippen was better than Wilkins, probably similar caliber, Wilkins more potent on offense, Pippen more potent on defense...yet you don't see anyone overstating Wilkins value, like you do with Pippen


Then you bring up the silly alpha dog nonsense. This is used in an effort to say Pippen isn't a leader. And he get offended when 94 is brought up. But his agenda is clear. Notice how he excuses Wilkins even though in 9 seasons leading the Hawks he managed to get no further than Pippen did in 94 (one season). Why does Wilkins get a pass?

AlphaDog nonsense?? What other window do you have than the 94 season? Nothing, because that's all u use as a measuring cup and start playing what ifs(yet he fails to look at 95 season prior to Jordan's return), please go read your past Pippen post, why else do you think another poster called you out in a thread. :facepalm Also Wilkins was going up against Bird/Celtics, Thomas/Pistons and Jordan/Bulls, so yeah he had it tougher than ISH GOAT Pippen



Or even Kobe. Why is Kobe more of an alpha dog than Pippen? When Shaq left, the Lakers were atrocious to mediocre. Until they were gifted Pau Gasol, and ended up having the most talented team in the league. But Pippens supposed to do what Kobe did in one season? When Bryant needed a lot of help and time? This isn't a double standard?


More of a Alpha Dog? Kobe was a better Alpha Dog what are you blabbering about, ahh hell I shouldn't have said that, now you are going to tell me how Pippen is just as good as Kobe right?


I'm not putting Pippen on Jordans level. I've stated repeatedly I feel Jordan is the greatest ever. And thus is the benchmark by which all other players are judged. Now, all I said was compare the team Pippen led in 94, to the team Jordan led in 98. And mind you contrary to popular belief, that 94 team was not the exact same team that won the championship in 93 minus Jordan. Paxson and Cartwright played sparringly King was traded for Longley, Scott Williams missed half the season due to injury, and trent tucker was gone. For the most part, both teams had the same roster. Except the team Jordan led in 98, had a better version of Kukoc, Longley was better, Rodman was an upgrade over Grant, Harper was an upgrade over Armstrong. But the Pippen led team had a better record.

Here you go using the one year window, while ignoring Pip got All Star performances by Armstrong, yet saying a over the hill Harper was a upgrade...94 Armstrong better than 98 Harper....and not to mention the other upgrades Longley, Kukoc, Kerr


The 95 team? Very similar to the teams Wade had in 09 and Bryant had in 07. What makes their accomplishments any less impressive?


Kobe is just as good as 2nd three peat Jordan, so I don't understand what your asking here


The constant double standard is most frustanig. And Calabis won't respond, he will just ignore this and spout the same nonsense in another thread. Why? Because he's not looking for the truth or a common ground. He's blinded by his love for Jordan.

LMAO, dude this is the internet, acting like I'm not showing up at 3:30, in the schoolyard...:facepalm Yes, I am a Jordan fan, but I'm not blinded like some, you want to bring a Top 5 GOAT candidate to the conversation, I won't argue that, because at least its going to be valid...trying to put Pippen in that category is a joke. According to you Pippen could score like Hondo, the reason he didn't was because minutes or FGA's :wtf: How about he didn't have the ability to do those two things, otherwise he would have. HE rebounds as good as Bird, his playmaking ability is on par with Magic, during the chip runs, his impact was as valuable as Jordan's :facepalm that's shit you tried to justify not me.

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]

.

Calling the kettle black, especially when you were hell bent on putting Pippen on Bird and Magic status, I'm sure I'm not the only one who witnessed this
I don't care about status that's you guys thing. I've never tried to argue that Pip deserves to be on those guyss level.


The point of me bringing up Wilkins, is my way of saying I don't think Pippen was better than Wilkins, probably similar caliber, Wilkins more potent on offense, Pippen more potent on defense...yet you don't see anyone overstating Wilkins value, like you do with Pippen
I don't think Pippen is a better player than Wilkins either. Why penalize Wilkins because he didn't win with less talented teams? You called Wilkins abetter "alpha dog" that I disagree with


AlphaDog nonsense?? What other window do you have than the 94 season?
Scottie Pippen spent his prime playing alongside Jordan. Other than Shaq and Wilt, no one would be the "alpha dog" on a team that Jordan was on

Nothing, because that's all u use as a measuring cup and start playing what ifs(yet he fails to look at 95 season prior to Jordan's return), please go read your past Pippen post, why else do you think another poster called you out in a thread. :facepalm Also Wilkins was going up against Bird/Celtics, Thomas/Pistons and Jordan/Bulls, so yeah he had it tougher than ISH GOAT Pippen




More of a Alpha Dog? Kobe was a better Alpha Dog what are you blabbering about, ahh hell I shouldn't have said that, now you are going to tell me how Pippen is just as good as Kobe right?
Totally eliminate context yet again. The teams Kobe led to the finals were the best for those years. The team Pippen led in 94 was not even considered playoff bound and expected to be 500 at best. Either way that point is moot because I was comparing how both teams faired when Shaq left and the Bulls 95 team. Both teams faired no better than the other.


Here you go using the one year window, while ignoring Pip got All Star performances by Armstrong, yet saying a over the hill Harper was a upgrade...94 Armstrong better than 98 Harper....and not to mention the other upgrades Longley, Kukoc, Kerr
lol Armstrong avg 14/5. Hardly all star worthy. If I remember correct, he got in on a technicality.


Kobe is just as good as 2nd three peat Jordan, so I don't understand what your asking here



LMAO, dude this is the internet, acting like I'm not showing up at 3:30, in the schoolyard...:facepalm Yes, I am a Jordan fan, but I'm not blinded like some, you want to bring a Top 5 GOAT candidate to the conversation, I won't argue that, because at least its going to be valid...trying to put Pippen in that category is a joke. According to you Pippen could score like Hondo, the reason he didn't was because minutes or FGA's :wtf: How about he didn't have the ability to do those two things, otherwise he would have.
Why not apply math to the situation. I asked you this before. How many ppg would Pippen avg if he played in that era? Playing 45 minutes a night?

HE rebounds as good as Bird,
Bird and Pippen were great rebounders considering ther role and respective positions on their team. Bird got 9/10 rebounds per night playing closer to the basket, Pippen got 7/8 from the perimeter. You want to say Birds a better rebounder based sheerly on number and negate context? Then I agree Bird is the better rebounder. But neither belong on the same level as Rodman or Wilt.


his playmaking ability is on par with Magic,
I said his ability to run a team was on par with Magic. Both were their teams respective PGs. The Bulls won six championships, and had four first place finishes in total offense with Pippen running the show.

during the chip runs, his impact was as valuable as Jordan's :facepalm that's shit you tried to justify not me.
Id like to delve further into the "alpha dog" position. What's more important for an "alpha dog"? Scoring points? Or winning games.

[Dragonyeuw]

so shaq and gasol are the reason kobe has 5 :confusedshrug:

He wasn't born when Jordan and Pippen won the majority of their titles. That tells you all you need to know.

[Legends66NBA7]

Id like to delve further into the "alpha dog" position. What's more important for an "alpha dog"? Scoring points? Or winning games.

I think it's the ability to win games and be a great two-way player. A heavy burden to create offense and play very good on the other end too.

[97 bulls]

I think it's the ability to win games and be a great two-way player. A heavy burden to create offense and play very good on the other end too.
I agree. So why do some feel that the only way you can be an alpha male is to score a lot of points?



Kobes a scorer. That's how he impacts a game. Can he do other things well? Sure. But he's a scorer. Pippens gonna impact the game through his team play and defense. And he can score.

When surrounded with the same caliber of teammates kobe in 06, Pippen in 95, their teams ended up with the same friggn win percentage. Why is Kobes season more impressive? Because he avg 35 ppg? Great. How many times has that has been accomplished? Ten times. That pretty rare. Thirteen if you round up. But still its rare.


Scottie Pippen in 95? The Bulls were on pace to win roughly 44 games before Jordan returned. Led by Pippen. But as I stated, he impacted the game in a different way. Through his defense and versitility. How versitle? He led the Bulls in all five major categories. Great. How many times has that been accomplished? THREE TIMES


What Pippen did in leading his team in every major category is rarer than averaging 35 ppg for a season.

[Owl]

He led the Bulls in all five major categories. Great. How many times has that been accomplished? THREE TIMES
Presumably you mean 3 times excluding Pippen, NBA only, and per game rather than on totals.

Typically the count is five: Erving (ABA), Cowens, Pippen, McGrady and Garnett. If you make it totals rather than per game you can add LeBron ('09 I think) where per game he was narrowly outblocked per game by Ben Wallace and Ilgauskas.

In any case whlist it's certainly a rare achievement it is rather dependant on context.

[Optimus Prime]

If some random poster on an internet forum is making you all of a suddenly hate an all-time great player, then you are either very easily swayed or weren't a true fan to begin with.

:kobe:

[97 bulls]

Presumably you mean 3 times excluding Pippen, NBA only, and per game rather than on totals.

Typically the count is five: Erving (ABA), Cowens, Pippen, McGrady and Garnett. If you make it totals rather than per game you can add LeBron ('09 I think) where per game he was narrowly outblocked per game by Ben Wallace and Ilgauskas.

In any case whlist it's certainly a rare achievement it is rather dependant on context.
[QUOTE][/QPresumably you mean 3 times excluding Pippen, NBA only, and per game rather than on totals.

UOTE]Im reffering to per game. saying that, Id like to know what context youre looking at

[97 bulls]

If some random poster on an internet forum is making you all of a suddenly hate an all-time great player, then you are either very easily swayed or weren't a true fan to begin with.

:kobe:



weren't a true fan to begin with.
This

[Legends66NBA7]

I agree. So why do some feel that the only way you can be an alpha male is to score a lot of points?

Because that's how they feel ? :confusedshrug:

There's more defensive pressure on great scorers, for one.


Kobes a scorer. That's how he impacts a game. Can he do other things well? Sure. But he's a scorer. Pippens gonna impact the game through his team play and defense. And he can score.

Kobe does both pretty well. He even changed his approach to this in 2009 and resulted in a chip.

While Pippen's is more well-rounded, Kobe's better offense gives him the edge and really is the better player out of both of them when you look at them.


When surrounded with the same caliber of teammates kobe in 06, Pippen in 95, their teams ended up with the same friggn win percentage. Why is Kobes season more impressive? Because he avg 35 ppg? Great. How many times has that has been accomplished? Ten times. That pretty rare. Thirteen if you round up. But still its rare.

Kobe didn't have same luxury of teammates vs Pippen's in 94. A team coming of being dead last in defense, the return of their head coach, new players vs the majority parts of the 3-peat championship and addition to the latter part of their 3-peat ? Not buying it.

It's been done only by 7 players though and only 2 have done so in the modern era: Jordan and Kobe.

[TheBigVeto]

Because that's how they feel ? :confusedshrug:

There's more defensive pressure on great scorers, for one.



Kobe does both pretty well. He even changed his approach to this in 2009 and resulted in a chip.

While Pippen's is more well-rounded, Kobe's better offense gives him the edge and really is the better player out of both of them when you look at them.



Kobe didn't have same luxury of teammates vs Pippen's in 94. A team coming of being dead last in defense, the return of their head coach, new players vs the majority parts of the 3-peat championship and addition to the latter part of their 3-peat ? Not buying it.

It's been done only by 7 players though and only 2 have done so in the modern era: Jordan and Kobe.

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg

[97 bulls]

Because that's how they feel ? :confusedshrug:

There's more defensive pressure on great scorers, for one.



Kobe does both pretty well. He even changed his approach to this in 2009 and resulted in a chip.

While Pippen's is more well-rounded, Kobe's better offense gives him the edge and really is the better player out of both of them when you look at them.



Kobe didn't have same luxury of teammates vs Pippen's in 94. A team coming of being dead last in defense, the return of their head coach, new players vs the majority parts of the 3-peat championship and addition to the latter part of their 3-peat ? Not buying it.

It's been done only by 7 players though and only 2 have done so in the modern era: Jordan and Kobe.
Im not comparing what Pippen did in 94. Im comparing 95.


While Pippen's is more well-rounded, Kobe's better offense gives him the edge and really is the better player out of both of them when you look at them.

Again, youre missing the point. With comparable talent, both Bryant ad Pippen faired about the same while leading their respective teams. In fact, the Lakers in O6 were probably better than the Bulls in 95 considering talent and circumstances.

Parker/Armstrong
Odom/Kukoc
George/Harper
Brown/Blount
Mihm/Perdue

[Bigsmoke]

97 Bulls think Toni Kukoc was better than Chris Bosh

[97 bulls]

Because that's how they feel ? :confusedshrug:

There's more defensive pressure on great scorers, for one.



Kobe does both pretty well. He even changed his approach to this in 2009 and resulted in a chip.

While Pippen's is more well-rounded, Kobe's better offense gives him the edge and really is the better player out of both of them when you look at them.



Kobe didn't have same luxury of teammates vs Pippen's in 94. A team coming of being dead last in defense, the return of their head coach, new players vs the majority parts of the 3-peat championship and addition to the latter part of their 3-peat ? Not buying it.

It's been done only by 7 players though and only 2 have done so in the modern era: Jordan and Kobe.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Because that's how they feel ? :confusedshrug:
That may be how you feel, but the fact is Bryants avg 35 ppg a night didnt take the Lakers any farther in their season than Pippen playing great defense and having one of the most versitle seasons ever by a player.


It's been done only by 7 players though and only 2 have done so in the modern era: Jordan and Kobe.
Lol technicalities. Leading your team in the five major categories has only been done twice in the modern era. as opposed to the three times avg 35 ppg has been done. So its still more rare.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls think Toni Kukoc was better than Chris Bosh
And for good reason.

[guy]

And for good reason.

Wow, and what reason is that?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And for good reason.

:roll:

[RRR3]

:roll:
So let's review.....


Pippen>=Bird, Magic, Kobe
Kukoc>Bosh













:roll:

[Da_Realist]

So let's review.....


Pippen>=Bird, Magic, Kobe
Kukoc>Bosh













:roll:

Don't forget. "Stockton is a better pg than Magic."

[kizut1659]

So let's review.....


Pippen>=Bird, Magic, Kobe
Kukoc>Bosh













:roll:

And Smush freaking Parker was better than BJ Armstrong, who made an all-star in 1994!

[juju151111]

Don't forget. "Stockton is a better pg than Magic."
Whhhhaaaatttt:wtf:

[Da_Realist]

Whhhhaaaatttt:wtf:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7811891&postcount=12

[97 bulls]

The problem is you guys are simple. You compare players based Solely on stats. Which is the worst way to compare players.


I look at results. Its why Wilt isn't considered the greatest ever. He blows everybody out the water when statistics are compared. But he didn't win at a level other players did. Doesn't means he's not any less of a basketball player. I wouldn't take wilt over jordan because jordans just as dominant and can hit FTs.

Does Magic win 5 champonships if he were the PG In Utah instead of Stockton? Hell no.
So what makes Magic a better PG than Stockton? Stocktons a great passer. His jumper was far better than Magics. And his defense was far better. Neither were great slashers, but Magic was better. And Magic was the better rebounder. Which should be a given seeing as how Stocktons almost a foot shorter than Magic. Now should Stockton be ranked higher than Magic? No because he didn't accomplish what magic did. Not because he wasn't good enoug, but because his teams weren't.

The same Logic should be applied where Bosh and Kukoc are concerned. What makes Bosh a better player than Kukoc? Not ranked higher, but better? When Bosh led the Raptor, they sucked. Kukoc could've done that. And if you put Bosh on those Bulls teams instead of Kukoc, he'd be comming off the bench cuz he ain't starting over Rodman. And he wouldn't start over Longley because he'd get his ass kicked by the center that played in the 90s.

[97 bulls]

And Smush freaking Parker was better than BJ Armstrong, who made an all-star in 1994!
Show me where I stated such? I compared the teams minus Pippen and Bryant.

[97 bulls]

Whhhhaaaatttt:wtf:
What makes Magic better than Stockton?

[Young X]

LOL @ Stockton ever being better than Magic, CP3 > Stockton.

[Money 23]

And Smush freaking Parker was better than BJ Armstrong, who made an all-star in 1994!
That was one of the worst all-star selections of all-time, in a very weak east that year bro ...

Along with such selections as Mo Williams, Jamaal Maglore, Horace Grant, David West and countless others over time.

[RRR3]

What makes Magic better than Stockton?
Holy shit folks, he's serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Next he'll be saying, "what makes Kareem better than Karl Malone" :roll:

[97 bulls]

LOL @ Stockton ever being better than Magic, CP3 > Stockton.
Id take Paul over both.

[97 bulls]

Holy shit folks, he's serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Next he'll be saying, "what makes Kareem better than Karl Malone" :roll:
Lol how many PGs couldn't win with a team the caliber of the 80s Lakers? Playing in that terrible conference?

[BlackVVaves]

Id take Paul over both.

I've been reading this thread from afar and reserving judgement. But, this I simply cannot let go without addressing.

You think Chris Paul is a better point guard, a better player, than Magic Johnson?

Really? Really??

[Dwade305]

97 Bulls, were do you think a Bulls Rodman will rank today as far as PF's?? Curious since you think Rodman> Bosh and Love, maybe you have him top 3? :oldlol:

[RRR3]

97 Bulls, were do you think a Bulls Rodman will rank today as far as PF's?? Curious since you think Rodman> Bosh and Love, maybe you have him top 3? :oldlol:
Inb4 97 bulls says Rodman would be the best player in the NBA:lol

[eliteballer]

It's quite clear 97 was some 8 year old kid in 97 who idolized the Bulls and has an overinflated opinion of Pippen....combined with a low IQ.

Oh the horror.

[RRR3]

It's quite clear 97 was some 8 year old kid in 97 who idolized the Bulls and has an overinflated opinion of Pippen....combined with a low IQ.

Oh the horror.
STFU Hater. Pippen>God :roll: :roll: :roll:

[97 bulls]

I've been reading this thread from afar and reserving judgement. But, this I simply cannot let go without addressing.

You think Chris Paul is a better point guard, a better player, than Magic Johnson?

Really? Really??
Let me put it to you like this. I'm a huge Scottie Pippen fan. There's no way I believe, Pippen could've treated Paul the way he treated Magic. And Paxson wouldn't have played and shot the ball as if he were the only person in the gym.

Do the Bulls still win? Yes because perhaps Jackson goes big and makes paul have to guard Jordan or Pippen in the post.

[eliteballer]

Treated Magic? Magic was blowing by Pippen at will, posting him up at will.

He just couldnt finish on the Bulls interior because his knees were pretty shot after a decade of deep playoff runs and Riley practices.

It's a moot point..Pippen was on Worthy most of the time who was schooling him in the post just like Penny would years later.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls, were do you think a Bulls Rodman will rank today as far as PF's?? Curious since you think Rodman> Bosh and Love, maybe you have him top 3? :oldlol:
In this era of power forwards and centers? Rodman would probably avg. 20 rebounds today. And be the best defender at the forward position. Griffin and Love made the second team all nba and id take Rodman over both.

[guy]

What makes Magic better than Stockton?

Better scorer, better rebounder, at least equal passer, better clutch player, greater and more inspirational leader, much greater ability to play more positions, etc. This really isn't close. By the way, I find it funny you say you only look at results then say Stockton > Magic :oldlol:

[Owl]

Im reffering to per game. saying that, Id like to know what context youre looking at
Mainly teammates. Garnett, Erving and Pippen's seasons are the closest to having totals that would typically warrant leading in all 5 categories though you might question whether Erving would have done the same in the NBA.

Whatever the overall merits Cowens and McGrady's seasons both have (multiple) categories which are very low for team leaders. Bad teammates "helped" them to this achievement.

Meanwhile David Robinson's '94 campaign was worthy of a leading in five categories. 4.8 assists is a bit low but you're always going to have one category that wouldn't be a leader on a better team. But because he played with Dennis Rodman he didn't lead in rebounds.

[97 bulls]

Treated Magic? Magic was blowing by Pippen at will, posting him up at will.

He just couldnt finish on the Bulls interior because his knees were pretty shot after a decade of deep playoff runs and Riley practices.

It's a moot point..Pippen was on Worthy most of the time who was schooling him in the post.
Lol that was all by design. Pippen slapped the ball away from Magic constantly. And heknew he could gamble because Magic had no pull up jumper and the Bulls interior defense wasn't gonna allow him to waltz to the basket like he did in the 80s.


And no Worthy wasn't "schooling" Pip. Worthy had one very good game that series vs Pip

[guy]

The same Logic should be applied where Bosh and Kukoc are concerned. What makes Bosh a better player than Kukoc? Not ranked higher, but better? When Bosh led the Raptor, they sucked. Kukoc could've done that. And if you put Bosh on those Bulls teams instead of Kukoc, he'd be comming off the bench cuz he ain't starting over Rodman. And he wouldn't start over Longley because he'd get his ass kicked by the center that played in the 90s.

Cause Longley was really stopping Shaq and Hakeem right? Bosh is a better scorer, rebounder, and defender then Kukoc. This isn't close either. Bosh actually got the Raptors to the playoffs a few times. Kukoc led his team to the worst record in the league the one season he got the chance then got traded and barely ever even started again. You still never actually gave a reason that he was better.

[eliteballer]

:oldlol: It was by design for Magic to blow by Pippen. He WAS getting fouls on the Bulls interior players. I'm sure that was by design.

Yes, Worthy on a bad ankle WAS schooling Pippen in the post in every game with his spin moves.

[97 bulls]

Better scorer, better rebounder, at least equal passer, better clutch player, greater and more inspirational leader, much greater ability to play more positions, etc. This really isn't close. By the way, I find it funny you say you only look at results then say Stockton > Magic :oldlol:
I assume your referring to Wilt and my "results" comment. I'm saying based on winning, Wilt is penalized greatly. But as a player? Only Jordan is better.

[RRR3]

97 Bulls, I just want to know, what's your top 10 all time list look like?

[Da_Realist]

Lol that was all by design. Pippen slapped the ball away from Magic constantly. And heknew he could gamble because Magic had no pull up jumper and the Bulls interior defense wasn't gonna allow him to waltz to the basket like he did in the 80s.


And no Worthy wasn't "schooling" Pip. Worthy had one very good game that series vs Pip

No. Magic was worn down because 3 players (Jordan, Pippen and Grant/Levingston) were totally occupied with him. The defense made it a point to wear him down, get the ball out of his hands and force other players to make decisions with it. Pippen was great in Game 2, but by Game 3 Pippen's defense alone didn't work. Magic just worked him down and got easy shots or fed the big guys (Perkins and Divac) because one of them had a mismatch with MJ defending them. The Lakers looked at the tape in between games and made adjustments.

[97 bulls]

Cause Longley was really stopping Shaq and Hakeem right? Bosh is a better scorer, rebounder, and defender then Kukoc. This isn't close either. Bosh actually got the Raptors to the playoffs a few times. Kukoc led his team to the worst record in the league the one season he got the chance then got traded and barely ever even started again. You still never actually gave a reason that he was better.
Bosh isn't strong enough to battle those players in the post. And the few times the Raptors got to the playoffs, I'm sure Kukoc could've done the same thing. Bosh didn't do anything special.your making a comparison as if they had equal teams.

Id take kukoc because I think he's better at running a team, and can score, and rebound. But neither did anything impressive. And I don't feel Bosh is much of a defender.

[guy]

Bosh isn't strong enough to battle those players in the post. And the few times the Raptors got to the playoffs, I'm sure Kukoc could've done the same thing. Bosh didn't do anything special.your making a comparison as if they had equal teams.

Id take kukoc because I think he's better at running a team, and can score, and rebound. But neither did anything impressive. And I don't feel Bosh is much of a defender.

Bosh was pretty great defensively in the finals. He's not elite but he's clearly much better then Kukoc. There's literally nothing Kukoc can do better then Bosh but pass. Bosh didn't do anything special. You're right. We are not comparing special players. Either way, there's nothing that suggests Kukoc could what Bosh did. He wasn't even as statistically impressive when he was playing on the worst team in the league.

[97 bulls]

No. Magic was worn down because 3 players (Jordan, Pippen and Grant/Levingston) were totally occupied with him. The defense made it a point to wear him down, get the ball out of his hands and force other players to make decisions with it. Pippen was great in Game 2, but by Game 3 Pippen's defense alone didn't work. Magic just worked him down and got easy shots or fed the big guys (Perkins and Divac) because one of them had a mismatch with MJ defending them. The Lakers looked at the tape in between games and made adjustments.
I'm talking about game 2 first of all, Pippen defended him almost exclusively after Jordan got his second foul in the middle of the first. And Pippen didn't defend him nearly as much after game two. And I'm saying this with confidence as I've watched that game twice since we last talked about this.

[guy]

I assume your referring to Wilt and my "results" comment. I'm saying based on winning, Wilt is penalized greatly. But as a player? Only Jordan is better.

How about the rest of my post?

[BlackVVaves]

Let me put it to you like this. I'm a huge Scottie Pippen fan. There's no way I believe, Pippen could've treated Paul the way he treated Magic. And Paxson wouldn't have played and shot the ball as if he were the only person in the gym.

Do the Bulls still win? Yes because perhaps Jackson goes big and makes paul have to guard Jordan or Pippen in the post.

So, because Pippen would have a hard time matching up with a smaller, quicker player in CP3, CP3 is a better player than Magic Johnson.

Is Tim Hardaway a better player than Magic Johnson too? Because Pippen could never/would never stay in front of prime Tim Hardaway. What about Derrick Rose? Deron Williams?

For ****'s sake man, get a grip. What type of ****ing logic are you playing by in this thread?

[97 bulls]

Bosh was pretty great defensively in the finals. He's not elite but he's clearly much better then Kukoc. There's literally nothing Kukoc can do better then Bosh but pass. Bosh didn't do anything special. You're right. We are not comparing special players. Either way, there's nothing that suggests Kukoc could what Bosh did. He wasn't even as statistically impressive when he was playing on the worst team in the league.
Lol who was he sticking in the finals? Perkins? Ibaka? Kukoc would've looked great against them too.


Why couldn't he do what Bosh did in his own way? The Bosh led Raptors were routinely at the bottom of the pack in the standings. Kukoc was too, but damn his key teammates, were Brent Barry, and Ron Harper. He avg 19/7/5. Without any significant help. You don't think his job becomes easier with even a slight improvement in the roster? Ron Harper was 35 years old. Along with the two players mentioned, Dickey Simpkins, Mark Bryant, Rusty Larue, were seeing a significant amount of playing time. How many assists does he get with He had a rookie coach that was in over his head. A GM that didn't want them to win.

This is what Bosh had to work with in 2010. A 40 win team. Bargnani. Jarret Jack. Hedo Turkoglu. And Demar Derozan. Replace Bosh with Kukoc, and he avg 8 assits. Along with 20 pts and 6-7 rebounds. And they at least get 40 wins.


And you got to remember Kukoc had and injury plagued career after he left the Bulls. And he didn't mesh well with Iverson. He then was taded to Atlanta and avg 20/6/6 to finish out that season. Then the next season, injuries hit.

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls, I just want to know, what's your top 10 all time list look like?
Jordan
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon
Russell
Bryant


Basically the most accomplisd decorated players. And that's not in any order. I don't reaally do top 10s etc. But I know where your getting at.

[eliteballer]

So....you listed 9 players, and forgot Kareem:roll:

[pauk]

Can never hate Pippen!

[RRR3]

Jordan
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon
Russell
Bryant


Basically the most accomplisd decorated players. And that's not in any order. I don't reaally do top 10s etc. But I know where your getting at.
I thought Stockton was better than Magic? Where's your boy Pippen? And LOL @ forgetting Kareem.

[TheBigVeto]

Jordan
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon
Russell
Bryant


Basically the most accomplisd decorated players. And that's not in any order. I don't reaally do top 10s etc. But I know where your getting at.

LOL no way Bird and Magic are in your top 10. Come on now dude, we all know your agenda.

[97 bulls]

So, because Pippen would have a hard time matching up with a smaller, quicker player in CP3, CP3 is a better player than Magic Johnson.

Is Tim Hardaway a better player than Magic Johnson too? Because Pippen could never/would never stay in front of prime Tim Hardaway. What about Derrick Rose? Deron Williams?

For ****'s sake man, get a grip. What type of ****ing logic are you playing by in this thread?
Tim Hardaway was a shitty defender as well. So even if succefully whethered Pippens defense, his defense on paxson would've still hurt him. Paul plays defense, is just as quick and looks to pass to his teammates. And he rebounds the ball well for someone 6'0.

[Calabis]

http://fakemovieposter.s3.amazonaws.com/1348618405thehuntforredseptember.jpg

[97 bulls]

LOL no way Bird and Magic are in your top 10. Come on now dude, we all know your agenda.
There's no agenda. I know a lot of stuff I've said is against fan consensus. But true. The players I listed are the most decorated players the league has ever had. But that doesn't make them the best players. And that's most of you guys problem. Just like how most of you mistake the term "first option" as meaning best player on the team. Or how some of you feel "Alpha Male" means best scorer.

[kizut1659]

Show me where I stated such? I compared the teams minus Pippen and Bryant.

Your comparison was lame cause you just listed the starters at their positions, such as Parker/Armstrong. To me that indicated that you think they are equals or something.

[RRR3]

There's no agenda. I know a lot of stuff I've said is against fan consensus. But true. The players I listed are the most decorated players the league has ever had. But that doesn't make them the best players. And that's most of you guys problem. Just like how most of you mistake the term "first option" as meaning best player on the team. Or how some of you feel "Alpha Male" means best scorer.
Fine list your ten best players then.

[kizut1659]

Lol who was he sticking in the finals? Perkins? Ibaka? Kukoc would've looked great against them too.


Why couldn't he do what Bosh did in his own way? The Bosh led Raptors were routinely at the bottom of the pack in the standings. Kukoc was too, but damn his key teammates, were Brent Barry, and Ron Harper. He avg 19/7/5. Without any significant help. You don't think his job becomes easier with even a slight improvement in the roster? Ron Harper was 35 years old. Along with the two players mentioned, Dickey Simpkins, Mark Bryant, Rusty Larue, were seeing a significant amount of playing time. How many assists does he get with He had a rookie coach that was in over his head. A GM that didn't want them to win.

This is what Bosh had to work with in 2010. A 40 win team. Bargnani. Jarret Jack. Hedo Turkoglu. And Demar Derozan. Replace Bosh with Kukoc, and he avg 8 assits. Along with 20 pts and 6-7 rebounds. And they at least get 40 wins.


And you got to remember Kukoc had and injury plagued career after he left the Bulls. And he didn't mesh well with Iverson. He then was taded to Atlanta and avg 20/6/6 to finish out that season. Then the next season, injuries hit.

I always liked Kukuc and was rooting for him to take Rodman's starting spot in Chicago but Bosh is better. Maybe if Kukuc had came to an NBA at a younger age ala Dirk and not had to play the 6th man all these years. . . but the bottom line is that he never played at an all-star level for any extended amount of time. And yeah his Chicago teams sucked but he should have shot better than 38-42%.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Why couldn't he do what Bosh did in his own way? The Bosh led Raptors were routinely at the bottom of the pack in the standings. Kukoc was too, but damn his key teammates, were Brent Barry, and Ron Harper. He avg 19/7/5. Without any significant help.

Kukoc averaged 18.8 pts on 42.0% FG/49% TS. Bosh averaged 24 ppg on 52% FG/59% TS, and had multiple seasons above 22 ppg on 50% FG/58% TS. That's a HUGE difference.

[kizut1659]

Kukoc averaged 18.8 pts on 42.0% FG/49% TS. Bosh averaged 24 ppg on 52% FG/59% TS, and had multiple seasons above 22 ppg on 50% FG/58% TS. That's a HUGE difference.

Watch, now 97 Bulls will bring up Kukoc's 17 or so games for Atlanta in 2000-2001 where he shot a better %.

[97 bulls]

Fine list your ten best players then.
That wayyyy too hard. Too many variables come into play.

[fpliii]

That wayyyy too hard. Too many variables come into play.

ten most overall impactful players?

[RRR3]

That wayyyy too hard. Too many variables come into play.
Bro you already said "Stockton>Magic" you can't say anything crazier. Go ahead.

[97 bulls]

Your comparison was lame cause you just listed the starters at
their positions, such as Parker/Armstrong. To me that indicated that you think they are equals or something.
My bad bro. I was comparing the rosters core players minus Bryant and Pippen. Now be honest. Is there a noticeable difference aside from the fact that were talking about different players?

[97 bulls]

Bro you already said "Stockton>Magic" you can't say anything crazier. Go ahead.
Actually, I said better POINT GUARD. Magic does bring more to the table. In that he can play more positions. But as a PG? Stockton is better

But I've always saw Magic as a front runner/crybaby. I lost a lot of respect for him when I read that he only left college because he wanted to play with Jabaar. And then say he would leave if he was drafted by another team. The rumor that he got Westhead fired, his complaning that day on the dreamteam scrimmage cuz he felt he wasn't on the best team. Larry Brown saying that in those pickup games at UCLA, he would pick the teams and made it a point of putting the best players on his team. The way he would pout if he gambled on a steal and lose. And when I say pout, I mean he didn't really make an effort to get back into the play. Id also like to add how he stopped coaching the Lakers cuz they weren't very good


I wouldn't want him on my team

[97 bulls]

ten most overall impactful players?
Shaq, Wilt, Jordan, and James are the only players I see as being on another level from their peers as far as talent.

[TheBigVeto]

But I've always saw Magic as a front runner/crybaby. I lost a lot of respect for him when I read that he only left college because he wanted to play with Jabaar. And then say he would leave if he was drafted by another team. The rumor that he got Westhead fired, his complaning that day on the dreamteam scrimmage cuz he felt he wasn't on the best team. Larry Brown saying that in those pickup games at UCLA, he would pick the teams and made it a point of putting the best players on his team. The way he would pout if he gambled on a steal and lose. And when I say pout, I mean he didn't really make an effort to get back into the play.


Unbelievable. Out of all your crappy agenda driven posts you finally made a great post.
Magic is Kobe before Kobe - a true front runner.

[Jacks3]

.


I wouldn't want him on my team
:oldlol:

[fpliii]

Shaq, Wilt, Jordan, and James are the only players I see as being on another level from their peers as far as talent.

is there a second tier (not necessarily just for top 10), or do you think the dropoff isn't as large?

like are there guys you think were at that level at some point, but perhaps for not as long as those four in your book?

[97 bulls]

Unbelievable. Out of all your crappy agenda driven posts you finally made a great post.
Magic is Kobe before Kobe - a true front runner.
Lol what makes Kobe a front runner? He wanted his own team. He could've easily won two more rings with Shaq at least.

[97 bulls]

is there a second tier (not necessarily just for top 10), or do you think the dropoff isn't as large?

like are there guys you think were at that level at some point, but perhaps for not as long as those four in your book?
There's a lot of players that fit that mold. Its why I don't like trying to compare players from different positions.


But honestly, Id take Olajuwon over Shaq and Wilt. But I don't think he's as talented as the two. I do feel Barkley would've been up there as well if he was dedicated. He's a classic case of someone that got by on talent. Rating players is like rocket science.

[fpliii]

There's a lot of players that fit that mold. Its why I don't like trying to compare players from different positions.


But honestly, Id take Olajuwon over Shaq and Wilt. But I don't think he's as talented as the two. I do feel Barkley would've been up there as well if he was dedicated. He's a classic case of someone that got by on talent. Rating players is like rocket science.

while all four guys you mentioned were good defenders (of different degrees, for different reasons...some due to size, some athleticism, etc.), none made their name on it (with the possible exception of Wilt with the Lakers)

do you feel a player can impact his game enough with defense (even if a great offensive player...his calling card just has to be defense) for it to put him with those four, or is it impossible given the nature of the game?

[eliteballer]

Actually, I said better POINT GUARD. Magic does bring more to the table. In that he can play more positions. But as a PG? Stockton is better

But I've always saw Magic as a front runner/crybaby. I lost a lot of respect for him when I read that he only left college because he wanted to play with Jabaar. And then say he would leave if he was drafted by another team. The rumor that he got Westhead fired, his complaning that day on the dreamteam scrimmage cuz he felt he wasn't on the best team. Larry Brown saying that in those pickup games at UCLA, he would pick the teams and made it a point of putting the best players on his team. The way he would pout if he gambled on a steal and lose. And when I say pout, I mean he didn't really make an effort to get back into the play. Id also like to add how he stopped coaching the Lakers cuz they weren't very good


I wouldn't want him on my team


LOL............................................... ........................Magic is 10 times the point/passer Stockton was. Magic could make any pass anywhere and truly controlled the tempo of the game. Stockton was a great passer, but ultimately limited because he was a system player. It's also funny you call Magic a crybaby when pippen pouted about Kukoc getting the shot in 94 not to mention crying for a trade from the Rockets. In fact Pippen said Magic was his idol growing up. All you have to do is see how Magic made passing infectious and how he encouraged teamates(ie in the dream team scrimmage documentary) to see he was a GREAT leader.

Here's betting you didnt even start watching ball until Magic was retired.

[97 bulls]

while all four guys you mentioned were good defenders (of different degrees, for different reasons...some due to size, some athleticism, etc.), none made their name on it (with the possible exception of Wilt with the Lakers)

do you feel a player can impact his game enough with defense (even if a great offensive player...his calling card just has to be defense) for it to put him with those four, or is it impossible given the nature of the game?
Sure. But not consistently. Its like Russell. And mind you I've never seen him play. But he was dominant, an amzing team player, cerebral. Super athletic. But not much of an offensive player. And he played on some great, great teams. Who knows how his career plays out if he were on bad teams.

[Nevaeh]

Unbelievable. Out of all your crappy agenda driven posts you finally made a great post.
Magic is Kobe before Kobe - a true front runner.

Not only that, but he seems to forget how is boy Pip wanted to be traded every year at some point with the Bulls from year 91-98.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

This is stuff anyone here at ISH can verify BTW. It's not me throwing Pip under the bus, but just showing how hypocritical 97's been throughout this thread.

"Magic's great, because he isn't, that's why he's in my top 10, although Stockton's not in my top 10, even though he was better than Magic, who's more versatile, although he's not a pure point guard, because he can play other positions, which makes him weaker than Stockton......."

[fpliii]

Sure. But not consistently. Its like Russell. And mind you I've never seen him play. But he was dominant, an amzing team player, cerebral. Super athletic. But not much of an offensive player. And he played on some great, great teams. Who knows how his career plays out if he were on bad teams.

right, but you said you have those four guys on another level from everybody else in league history in terms of talent

what would a defensive talent have to do to get on that level in your book (not that I agree/disagree, I'm just interested in your thoughts)?

[eliteballer]

Sure. But not consistently. Its like Russell. And mind you I've never seen him play. But he was dominant, an amzing team player, cerebral. Super athletic. But not much of an offensive player. And he played on some great, great teams. Who knows how his career plays out if he were on bad teams.

LOL...........Russell was noted for being an extremely smart offensive player, knowing where to be for key rebounds, igniting the break with outlets, setting screens, moving the ball etc. It's FAR more of a question if Pippen was on bad teams since a wing players defense is never equivalent to a bigs, and playing with Jordan on the perimeter obviously helped him look good defensively........................

[97 bulls]

LOL............................................... ........................Magic is 10 times the point/passer Stockton was. Magic could make any pass anywhere and truly controlled the tempo of the game. Stockton was a great passer, but ultimately limited because he was a system player. It's also funny you call Magic a crybaby when pippen pouted about Kukoc getting the shot in 94 not to mention crying for a trade from the Rockets. In fact Pippen said Magic was his idol growing up. All you have to do is see how Magic made passing infectious and how he encouraged teamates(ie in the dream team scrimmage documentary) to see he was a GREAT leader.

Here's betting you didnt even start watching ball until Magic was retired.
Then you would lost that bet.


I never excused Pippen for his decision that game. But that was one time as opposed to Magic who was what he was.


And its easy to be a great leader when your leading great players. It cool that he didn't like to lose but what he did was childish

[97 bulls]

LOL...........Russell was noted for being an extremely smart offensive player, knowing where to be for key rebounds, igniting the break with outlets, setting screens, moving the ball etc. It's FAR more of a question if Pippen was on bad teams since a wing players defense is never equivalent to a bigs, and playing with Jordan on the perimeter obviously helped him look good defensively........................
Your right. Russell was an amazingly smart player. Even on offense. But he wasn't a great scorer. That was my point. The other players I mentioned were great offensively and defensively. Though Shaq tended to be kinda lazy. But he was so much better than everyone else.

[97 bulls]

Not only that, but he seems to forget how is boy Pip wanted to be traded every year at some point with the Bulls from year 91-98.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

This is stuff anyone here at ISH can verify BTW. It's not me throwing Pip under the bus, but just showing how hypocritical 97's been throughout this thread.

"Magic's great, because he isn't, that's why he's in my top 10, although Stockton's not in my top 10, even though he was better than Magic, who's more versatile, although he's not a pure point guard, because he can play other positions, which makes him weaker than Stockton......."
I think he requested a trade twice, in 98 while rehabbing he said he didn't want to play for the bulls, and during the 95 season. But both were more or less because he didn't feel appreciated. Hell Krause didn't want him there. He tried to trade him in 94.

[97 bulls]

right, but you said you have those four guys on another level from everybody else in league history in terms of talent

what would a defensive talent have to do to get on that level in your book (not that I agree/disagree, I'm just interested in your thoughts)?
Wow that's hard bro. I mean there's two sides of the ball. Perhaps be able to anchor a defense, while defending the oppositions best player and still be able to help out the lesser defenders on his team (without sacrificing his own assignment) and be able to defend all five positions. Be able to press full court, block shots, play the passing lanes, call the defensive plays. If a guy could do all that, he wouldn't need to score.

[fpliii]

Wow that's hard bro. I mean there's two sides of the ball. Perhaps be able to anchor a defense, while defending the oppositions best player and still be able to help out the lesser defenders on his team (without sacrificing his own assignment) and be able to defend all five positions. Be able to press full court, block shots, play the passing lanes, call the defensive plays. If a guy could do all that, he wouldn't need to score.

oh I mean he can be an offensive player, he just needs to be featured defensively (as in, it needs to be the better part of his game by a fair margin)

[97 bulls]

oh I mean he can be an offensive player, he just needs to be featured defensively (as in, it needs to be the better part of his game by a fair margin)
That's kinda hard . I mean, were talking the most talented players here. No need to make concessions. If I could afford to buy a million dollar car, it better do a lot more than just be fast.

[TheBigVeto]

Lol what makes Kobe a front runner? He wanted his own team. He could've easily won two more rings with Shaq at least.

Kobe be riding proven great big men coattails (Shaq & Gasol). Just like Magic (Kareem).

[fpliii]

That's kinda hard . I mean, were talking the most talented players here. No need to make concessions. If I could afford to buy a million dollar car, it better do a lot more than just be fast.

so, my question for is, do you think any super talented player (as in, on the level of those guys) with the tools to excel at an all-time great level on both sides of the ball, would always tend to become an offense first, defense second player?

[97 bulls]

so, my question for is, do you think any super talented player (as in, on the level of those guys) with the tools to excel at an all-time great level on both sides of the ball, would always tend to become an offense first, defense second player?
No because for the most part they're equally great on both ends of the floor. The fans are the ones that put a premium on scoring the ball. We as fans like to look at pro basketball as a pickup game. All we see is isos and running up and down the court. That's the wrong way to view NBA basketball. Then we make it worse when we draw conclusions based on sports center and the box score.

[DatAsh]

No because for the most part they're equally great on both ends of the floor. The fans are the ones that put a premium on scoring the ball. We as fans like to look at pro basketball as a pickup game. All we see is isos and running up and down the court. That's the wrong way to view NBA basketball. Then we make it worse when we draw conclusions based on sports center and the box score.

I tend to agree with this.

[Legends66NBA7]

I tend to agree with this.

I don't think it's the same medium as more online fans and forums, though. We would tend to no more than the casual fan and be more objective. I've never best my perspective on highlight reels and box scores (their only a raw feeling to look at things; better than highlights).

I've found some of the most objective and brilliant basketball minds online and on ISH as well. I can see what 97 bulls is saying, but that statement to a different demographic.

[Bigsmoke]

:coleman:

Why can't I have my own thread?

[guy]

Lol who was he sticking in the finals? Perkins? Ibaka? Kukoc would've looked great against them too.


Why couldn't he do what Bosh did in his own way? The Bosh led Raptors were routinely at the bottom of the pack in the standings. Kukoc was too, but damn his key teammates, were Brent Barry, and Ron Harper. He avg 19/7/5. Without any significant help. You don't think his job becomes easier with even a slight improvement in the roster? Ron Harper was 35 years old. Along with the two players mentioned, Dickey Simpkins, Mark Bryant, Rusty Larue, were seeing a significant amount of playing time. How many assists does he get with He had a rookie coach that was in over his head. A GM that didn't want them to win.

This is what Bosh had to work with in 2010. A 40 win team. Bargnani. Jarret Jack. Hedo Turkoglu. And Demar Derozan. Replace Bosh with Kukoc, and he avg 8 assits. Along with 20 pts and 6-7 rebounds. And they at least get 40 wins.


And you got to remember Kukoc had and injury plagued career after he left the Bulls. And he didn't mesh well with Iverson. He then was taded to Atlanta and avg 20/6/6 to finish out that season. Then the next season, injuries hit.

Ibaka is actually a great finisher around the basket and Bosh limited him significantly, and Bosh did a great job protecting the basket in general, something that Kukoc has never even shown he was even close to capable of doing.

None of the players that you mentioned Bosh had in 2010 are that really that good, and besides that, a few years earlier he led an even worse team around him to 47 wins. Kukoc was putting up those numbers on literally the worse teams in the league. In the Bulls case, it was on horrible efficiency, and in the Hawks case it wasn't even a big sample size. Why would Kukoc put up 8 apg per game when he's never even came close to that (not even per 36)? Bosh was putting up better numbers on better efficiency and actually leading those teams to some success. Kukoc was putting up numbers on horrible efficiency on horrible teams.

And forget the stats. Just from watching them play, its clear who's better. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff? Kukoc was traded for an old ass John Starks and a draft pick. Thats how good he was. Could you imagine Bosh being traded for kind of garbage?

[guy]

Actually, I said better POINT GUARD. Magic does bring more to the table. In that he can play more positions. But as a PG? Stockton is better

But I've always saw Magic as a front runner/crybaby. I lost a lot of respect for him when I read that he only left college because he wanted to play with Jabaar. And then say he would leave if he was drafted by another team. The rumor that he got Westhead fired, his complaning that day on the dreamteam scrimmage cuz he felt he wasn't on the best team. Larry Brown saying that in those pickup games at UCLA, he would pick the teams and made it a point of putting the best players on his team. The way he would pout if he gambled on a steal and lose. And when I say pout, I mean he didn't really make an effort to get back into the play. Id also like to add how he stopped coaching the Lakers cuz they weren't very good


I wouldn't want him on my team

So you do think Magic is a better player? I've never understood the whole "who plays better at a certain position" argument vs. "whos the better player", cause its not like PGs don't help their teams by scoring and rebounding for example, but whatever. I guess if you think Magic is a better player, just not a better PG, I guess its not as stupid.

[Whoah10115]

Because Stockton was the better defender, had a much better jumpshot and did more with less.

Neither were great at slashing to the basket, but Magic is better. And Magic had a better postgame.


Overall, Stockton was more of a prototypical PG



You're talking in the purest of terms. But you have to make sure you make that clear.



Also, I agree on your post about rating Batmans and Robins, but I don't think that has much to do with Jordan fans. That's the Kobe fans and, actually, more the Kobe detractors than anything else.

[Whoah10115]

Whats probably making people hate Scottie Pippen is the enormous amount of god damn threads MADE ABOUT HIM. Every day there seems to be some new thread that has his name in it and 97 bulls isn't the one making the threads. He's my favorite player of all time, but you don't see me making a thread about him every single ****ing day or if ever. I may have once I think a long time ago. Most of the people are kobe stans or have some agenda or another and it is always "scottie pippen vs yada yada" or something stupid and idiotic and not even really worth discussing.

Everyone is bias towards their favorite players or values different things. I don't even argue when it comes to Pippen anymore for the most part. I have my opinion and people have their own. I see no reason to go back and forth forever. I think 97 bulls that you just need to agree to disagree and just not get into arguing so much, but no it isn't really him, but the fact that so many stupid shit threads come up on this board that some how have Pippen in them that are making people sour to him more than anything.



Angry man is right.

[97 bulls]

Ibaka is actually a great finisher around the basket and Bosh limited him significantly, and Bosh did a great job protecting the basket in general, something that Kukoc has never even shown he was even close to capable of doing.
Did Bosh do a good job on Ibaka? Or did Wade, Chalmers, Battier and James do a good job limiting the Thunders ablility to attack the Basket and thus give Ibaka a bunch of easy dunks?

None of the players that you mentioned Bosh had in 2010 are that really that good, and besides that, a few years earlier he led an even worse team around him to 47 wins.
Are we comparing them to that 99 Bulls roster or the NBA? If its the NBA, id agree. But the Bulls in 99? You couldn't be wronger. You'd really take Randy Brown, 35 year old Ron Harper, Brent Barry, Mark Bryant, Rusty LaRue, and Dickey Simpkins. Over TJ Ford, Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajsa, Rasho Nesterovic, Andrea Bargnani, and Morris Peterson?

Kukoc was putting up those numbers on literally the worse teams in the league. In the Bulls case, it was on horrible efficiency, and in the Hawks case it wasn't even a big sample size. Why would Kukoc put up 8 apg per game when he's never even came close to that (not even per 36)?
Because he'd be passing to much better teammates. And his efficiency would improve as well.


Bosh was putting up better numbers on better efficiency and actually leading those teams to some success. Kukoc was putting up numbers on horrible efficiency on horrible teams.

And forget the stats. Just from watching them play, its clear who's better. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff? Kukoc was traded for an old ass John Starks and a draft pick. Thats how good he was. Could you imagine Bosh being traded for kind of garbage?
This wasn't a trade for talent, it was a trade to dump salary, and add a lottery picks. I believe that pick was Ron Artest

Id like to ask you a question Guy. How many more wins do the Bulls get if they're able to haave the talent the Raptors had in 07 minus Bosh but keep Kukoc?

[97 bulls]

You're talking in the purest of terms. But you have to make sure you make that clear.



Also, I agree on your post about rating Batmans and Robins, but I don't think that has much to do with Jordan fans. That's the Kobe fans and, actually, more the Kobe detractors than anything else.
I thought I did when I stated "PG". But I guess I could've been clearer.


You're right its the Kobe detractors. Who for the most part Jordan fans. They started this "only winning as the best player on your team counts" nonsense. I don't ever remember that being a big issue before Kobe won alongside shaq. Not even with Pippen. I remember the Bulls being referred to as "superman" (Jordan), "Batman" (Pippen), and "Rodman". I dontremember Dumars, Mchale, Worthy, etc not getting full credit for their championships. Jordan fan created this dumb theory.

[Whoah10115]

I thought I did when I stated "PG". But I guess I could've been clearer.


You're right its the Kobe detractors. Who for the most part Jordan fans. They started this "only winning as the best player on your team counts" nonsense. I don't ever remember that being a big issue before Kobe won alongside shaq. Not even with Pippen. I remember the Bulls being referred to as "superman" (Jordan), "Batman" (Pippen), and "Rodman". I dontremember Dumars, Mchale, Worthy, etc not getting full credit for their championships. Jordan fan created this dumb theory.



Well, I thought Kobe was just always a divisive figure. His fans are the reason for the term "stans" and the Kobe vs. T-Mac arguments were always tired. From what I remember, I can't really blame it on Jordan fans.




On the PG issue, it makes sense philosophically. But they were both PG's so it's something you have to make clear.

[guy]

Did Bosh do a good job on Ibaka? Or did Wade, Chalmers, Battier and James do a good job limiting the Thunders ablility to attack the Basket and thus give Ibaka a bunch of easy dunks?

A combination of both, but even with that being the case, Ibaka's opportunities being limited doesn't explain the nosedive in efficiency he took.

Did you even watch the Finals? Bosh played center and it was clear he was doing a good job defensively. The commentators commented on it numerous times how well he was adjusting to center and playing a defensive anchor. Its a big reason why they've been talking about moving Bosh and Lebron to C and PF full-time.



Are we comparing them to that 99 Bulls roster or the NBA? If its the NBA, id agree. But the Bulls in 99? You couldn't be wronger. You'd really take Randy Brown, 35 year old Ron Harper, Brent Barry, Mark Bryant, Rusty LaRue, and Dickey Simpkins. Over TJ Ford, Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajsa, Rasho Nesterovic, Andrea Bargnani, and Morris Peterson?

Probably the Raptors, but there both garbage, one not being much better then the other. When a leader is leading garbage squads, there expected to take on a much bigger role regardless.



Because he'd be passing to much better teammates. And his efficiency would improve as well.

Like I said, even his per 36 stats don't get even close to 8 apg. He couldn't get close to that passing the ball to Jordan and Pippen, but he would with Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon or TJ Ford being the primary ball handler? Do you realize how stupid that sounds? To not even be the primary ball handler and play with garbage teammates and still get 8 apg? Thats like Larry Bird/Lebron James type passing right there. Actually, even better.

Kukoc wasn't even as efficient taking less shots playing with Jordan and Pippen as Bosh was taking more shots playing with garbage. I don't know how that doesn't spell to you that he clearly isn't the scorer Bosh is.



Id like to ask you a question Guy. How many more wins do the Bulls get if they're able to haave the talent the Raptors had in 07 minus Bosh but keep Kukoc?

In 99? Probably like 18-20 instead of 13. Maybe even still 13 since eventually once it becomes clear that they aren't really playing for much so there's not much of a sense of urgency and motivation.

[DatAsh]

Toni Kukoc over Bosh?

I wouldn't trade Bosh for two Toni Kukocs. How is this even a debate?

[AlphaWolf24]

I don't think it's the same medium as more online fans and forums, though. We would tend to no more than the casual fan and be more objective. I've never best my perspective on highlight reels and box scores (their only a raw feeling to look at things; better than highlights).

I've found some of the most objective and brilliant basketball minds online and on ISH as well. I can see what 97 bulls is saying, but that statement to a different demographic.

- nothing is further from the truth...

there are a few ( number is less then 10) posters here that are objective with great "basketball minds"..here

- I would say the majority of fans here post with extreme bias and ignorance because they can...

- and many are too young to even have any common knowlege of what they are talking about...they use marginal stats to justify what there opinions are...without ever watching actual gameplay.

- the average fan who just watches highlights or games and bases his/hers opinion .....is actually what really matters , since that is the overwhelming majority of the fanbase...

- people who never watched Pippen play...or have an agenda for certain players arguing all dey about marginal stats....then putting down casual fans who base thier opinions on actually watching highlights or games are no different.

- in fat IMO the "hard core" fan who thinks they are better then casual fan or "know more / have a greater understanding"...are the worst fans in sports..


and too often thier opinions(hardcore fan) have no reflection of what real players / real coaches and even casual fans have:lol

[97 bulls]

A combination of both, but even with that being the case, Ibaka's opportunities being limited doesn't explain the nosedive in efficiency he took.
The nose dive came because a lot of the shots he'd normally make, (like those wide open jumpers from the baseline and elbow) he was missing.


Did you even watch the Finals? Bosh played center and it was clear he was doing a good job defensively. The commentators commented on it numerous times how well he was adjusting to center and playing a defensive anchor. Its a big reason why they've been talking about moving Bosh and Lebron to C and PF full-time.
Lol they put Bosh at center because neither Perkins or Ibaka were competaant offensive players in the post. Then they put james at the four and force Ibaka to have to play Bosh. And thus minimizing Perkins, cuz he didn't have the footspeed to play bosh out on the wing and he sure as hell ain't gonna be put on James. It was really a brilliant gamplan by Spoelstra. That decision forced the Thunder out of their comfort zone on defense. Because Ibaka being forced to play Bosh as opposed to being the defensive anchor allowed James to get to the rim at will without much pressure. And he wasn't exposed on defense because he spent a lot of his time defending either Ibaka or Perkins. I guarantee the Heat won't have Bosh playing center in a series vs the Lakers and Dwight Howard.


Probably the Raptors, but there both garbage, one not being much better then the other. When a leader is leading garbage squads, there expected to take on a much bigger role regardless.
The comparison isn't even close. The Raptor are much better at every position.


Like I said, even his per 36 stats don't get even close to 8 apg.
Why does his Per 36 matter? He'd still be passing to the same garbage players for 36 minutes

He couldn't get close to that passing the ball to Jordan and Pippen, but he would with Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon or TJ Ford being the primary ball handler? Do you realize how stupid that sounds? To not even be the primary ball handler and play with garbage teammates and still get 8 apg? Thats like Larry Bird/Lebron James type passing right there. Actually, even better.
I don't see why not. You don't neccesarily need to be the PG get a lot of assists. He was for all intents a 6'11 pg. He would have the ball a lot. Except he would be passing to better players. He avg 5 assists without having that big of a responsibilty as far as handling the ball with the Bulls. With above avg efficiency. Not to mention the 42% he sht in 99 is only slightly below the NBA avg of 437. He'd be above avg with better players.


Kukoc wasn't even as efficient taking less shots playing with Jordan and Pippen as Bosh was taking more shots playing with garbage. I don't know how that doesn't spell to you that he clearly isn't the scorer Bosh is.
I'm not arguing who the better scorer is. Bosh was better, but Kukoc could score


In 99? Probably like 18-20 instead of 13. Maybe even still 13 since eventually once it becomes clear that they aren't really playing for much so there's not much of a sense of urgency and motivation.
But they won 13. So if they gave up and still managed 13 wins, how do they not inprove with better personnel



I vehemently disagree with your assesment. There's no way an upgrade at every position, with a better coach, would only net only (guestimate) ten games over an 82 game season. The coach alone would probably give them 5. Id say they'd be roughly around the high 40s.

[guy]

The nose dive came because a lot of the shots he'd normally make, (like those wide open jumpers from the baseline and elbow) he was missing.

Ibaka is not that great of a jumpshooter. He can make them and he can miss them. He's never been automatic. What he is really good is finishing around the rim, but he didn't do very well in the Finals largely cause of Bosh.



Lol they put Bosh at center because neither Perkins or Ibaka were competaant offensive players in the post. Then they put james at the four and force Ibaka to have to play Bosh. And thus minimizing Perkins, cuz he didn't have the footspeed to play bosh out on the wing and he sure as hell ain't gonna be put on James. It was really a brilliant gamplan by Spoelstra. That decision forced the Thunder out of their comfort zone on defense. Because Ibaka being forced to play Bosh as opposed to being the defensive anchor allowed James to get to the rim at will without much pressure. And he wasn't exposed on defense because he spent a lot of his time defending either Ibaka or Perkins. I guarantee the Heat won't have Bosh playing center in a series vs the Lakers and Dwight Howard.

Bosh played center cause they don't really have any good centers. Good chance he would still play center vs. the Lakers when the alternative is Haslem or Anthony.



The comparison isn't even close. The Raptor are much better at every position.

There garbage teams regardless. And a garbage team is greatly reliant on how good their best player is. Thats why I don't really think it matters that much how much better they are then the other.



Why does his Per 36 matter? He'd still be passing to the same garbage players for 36 minutes

I was pointing out that he's never came close to 8 apg even per 36 since he's played a large chunk of his career playing significantly less than that.



I don't see why not. You don't neccesarily need to be the PG get a lot of assists. He was for all intents a 6'11 pg. He would have the ball a lot. Except he would be passing to better players. He avg 5 assists without having that big of a responsibilty as far as handling the ball with the Bulls. With above avg efficiency. Not to mention the 42% he sht in 99 is only slightly below the NBA avg of 437. He'd be above avg with better players.

Only 4x in history has a non-PG averaged more then 7.5 apg: Wilt 2x, Lebron 1x, and Bird 1x. Do you really want to keep sticking to this opinion and make yourself keep looking stupid?

He's a 44.7% shooter for his career. That's not good at all for a 6'11 SF/PF thats mostly been a bench player throughout his career that doesn't take a lot of shots.



I vehemently disagree with your assesment. There's no way an upgrade at every position, with a better coach, would only net only (guestimate) ten games over an 82 game season. The coach alone would probably give them 5. Id say they'd be roughly around the high 40s.

High 40s. WOW.:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Ibaka is not that great of a jumpshooter. He can make them and he can miss them. He's never been automatic. What he is really good is finishing around the rim, but he didn't do very well in the Finals largely cause of Bosh.



Bosh played center cause they don't really have any good centers. Good chance he would still play center vs. the Lakers when the alternative is Haslem or Anthony.
Bosh played center because the Thnders bigs weren't scoring threats. And his ability to create off the dribble and hit the open jumper drew Ibaka away from the paint. And forced him to do something he rarely did. Play defense outside of the paint. And it opened up the paint for the Heat to slash at will.


There garbage teams regardless. And a garbage team is greatly reliant on how good their best player is. Thats why I don't really think it matters that much how much better they are then the other.
TJ Ford wasn't garbage. Neither was Bargnani. Or Peterson or Parker. Neither was Garbajosa. The Bulls players were garbage. They had career twelthmen like Dickey Simpkins starting. Rusty LaRue, Kornel David? These guys were in the normal rotation. Guys who had nooooo business being in the league much less. Playing big roles on an NBA team. They were IR guys. And then you have an incompetant coach. And a GM that doesn't want them to succeed. Krause intentionally put that team together in an effort to give himself the best possible position to get that number one pick.


I was pointing out that he's never came close to 8 apg even per 36 since he's played a large chunk of his career playing significantly less than that.
But you're not including his roles. I don't wanna say. His talent was wasted because he played a big part on the Bulls championship runs. But he really never got a chance to showcase his full skills.


Only 4x in history has a non-PG averaged more then 7.5 apg: Wilt 2x, Lebron 1x, and Bird 1x. Do you really want to keep sticking to this opinion and make yourself keep looking stupid?
Ok seven

He's a 44.7% shooter for his career. That's not good at all for a 6'11 SF/PF thats mostly been a bench player throughout his career that doesn't take a lot of shots.
He's a 47% shooter in his prime.


High 40s. WOW.:oldlol:
Yes high 40s. I can't stress enough how bad that team was. I was impressed they managed to win 13 games in that shortened season. The more I think about it, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself implying that those two teams were on the same level.

[guy]

Yes high 40s. I can't stress enough how bad that team was. I was impressed they managed to win 13 games in that shortened season. The more I think about it, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself implying that those two teams were on the same level.

7 apg at least would only also include Havlicek, Pippen, and Hill. :oldlol:

I should be ashamed of myself? Really? You make this comparison and have the nerve to say that? :roll:

[97 bulls]

7 apg at least would only also include Havlicek, Pippen, and Hill. :oldlol:
So? He was more than capable. That's my point he avg five playing with bad players.
I should be ashamed of myself? Really? You make this comparison and have the nerve to say that? :roll:
You should be ashamed. If I remember correct, you were a Bulls fan right? You know that Krause intentionally put that team together with and eye on losing as many games as possible. Most of the players on the Bulls were second round picks or not even drafted. The Raptors were chalked full of high lottery picks. For you to imply they had the same amount of help in any way shape or form is irreprehensible.

And we haven't even brought up the other years Bosh spent with the Raptors. I'm not implying Bosh should led the Raptors to a championship, but he wasn't any better at leading a team than Kukoc.

[guy]

You should be ashamed. If I remember correct, you were a Bulls fan right? You know that Krause intentionally put that team together with and eye on losing as many games as possible. Most of the players on the Bulls were second round picks or not even drafted. The Raptors were chalked full of high lottery picks. For you to imply they had the same amount of help in any way shape or form is irreprehensible.

And we haven't even brought up the other years Bosh spent with the Raptors. I'm not implying Bosh should led the Raptors to a championship, but he wasn't any better at leading a team than Kukoc.

Your opinions just seem to get dumber and dumber. Kukoc>Bosh is really the worst I've heard from you, and I'm not sure I'd be surprised if you have something even worse then that.

[97 bulls]

Your opinions just seem to get dumber and dumber. Kukoc>Bosh is really the worst I've heard from you, and I'm not sure I'd be surprised if you have something even worse then that.
To be honest, I said they're about even. Their games are different. But neither are good enough to lead a team to a championship.


My response to bigsmoke in this thread was more tongue and cheek.


I think I've made my case.

[guy]

To be honest, I said they're about even. Their games are different. But neither are good enough to lead a team to a championship.


My response to bigsmoke in this thread was more tongue and cheek.


I think I've made my case.

No you haven't. All you've said is Kukoc can pass better, ignoring that he wasn't really elite at that or had a huge impact with his passing, also ignoring everything Bosh is clearly better at, and ignoring that Bosh has actually proven to be a much better player to lead a team. Whether Kukoc had a fair chance or not doesn't really matter cause it doesn't take the exact same situation to really determine what a player is capable of. All it really takes is your own eyes and its like you've ignored your own eyes, or your eyes are just stupid.

[97 bulls]

No you haven't. All you've said is Kukoc can pass better, ignoring that he wasn't really elite at that or had a huge impact with his passing,
Are you even reading my posts? Did I not say his ast would be higher if he were passing to better offensve players? You disagreed


also ignoring everything Bosh is clearly better at, and ignoring that Bosh has actually proven to be a much better player to lead a team.
Did I not admonish that Kukoc wasn't as good a scorer as Bosh?


Whether Kukoc had a fair chance or not doesn't really matter cause it doesn't take the exact same situation to really determine what a player is capable of. All it really takes is your own eyes and its like you've ignored your own eyes, or your eyes are just stupid.
I neve said they were in the same situation. I said Bosh was in a better situation. And when you got Kornel David, Dickie Simpkins, Rusty Larue, caliber players as part of your normal rotation. Come on. Id call that a handicap.

[guy]

Are you even reading my posts? Did I not say his ast would be higher if he were passing to better offensve players? You disagreed


Sorry, you did make a case. Just a horrible one.

Do you know why I disagreed? Because rarely does APG change significantly just from a change in the quality of teammates. Its one of the biggest misconceptions around. When Lebron and CP3 went to much better teams, there APG actually went DOWN. You know why that is? On a worse team, the better passers/playmakers are more relied upon to setup their teammates. On a better team, the assist opportunities are probably converted at a higher rate because of better offensive players, but since better offensive players will probably result in better ball movement and/or better teammates that can create scoring opportunities for themselves, there are probably less assist opportunities in general for an individual, which makes it basically a wash. This is why Lebron didn't average 10 apg like people thought he would going to the Heat. This is why CP3 didn't average 12 apg like people thought he would going to the Clippers throwing lobs to Griffin and Jordan all game long. This is why Steve Nash probably won't average 12 apg on the Lakers despite the fact that they have 3 better scoring options then the Suns did last year when Nash averaged 11 apg. And this is why not much would change for a guy like Toni Kukoc who isn't even a PG or a ball-dominant player regardless of what teammates are around him. The idea that he could've averaged 2 more apg then he ever did is laughable.



Did I not admonish that Kukoc wasn't as good a scorer as Bosh?


Okay you mentioned that. But completely downplayed or ignored the huge advantage in defense and rebounding that Bosh has over Kukoc.

[Lebron23]

I think he's just a loyal Bulls fan who thinks that Pippen was severely getting underrated in this forum. Pip is a top 25 player of all time.

[MavsSuperFan]

Lol. Its one thing to have a roast in my honor. Call me dumb, call me a homer or biased.


But I'm not a racist. I'm sure 87 Lakers will vouch for that. I feel John Stockton is a better PG than Magic Johhnson.
So you discredit larry bird and feel stockton > magic :biggums:

:biggums: :coleman: :lol :roll:

[DaSeba5]

Well it would be your fault for hating a player you've probably never met because of some anonymous poster on a basketball forum.

[mehyaM24]

So you discredit larry bird and feel stockton > magic :biggums:

:biggums: :coleman: :lol :roll:

stockton is a better pg.

magic is the better player because of his athleticism, height, scoring versatility and rebounding.

[Calabis]

Lol. Its one thing to have a roast in my honor. Call me dumb, call me a homer or biased.


But I'm not a racist. I'm sure 87 Lakers will vouch for that. I feel John Stockton is a better PG than Magic Johhnson.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/aec7b1633041072420c159209d3d1794/tumblr_mqqq1cJcvb1qgs9ujo1_500.gif