How good was Kareem defensively? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

jlip

09-29-2012, 02:34 PM

He has all of the stats and the resume' of an all time great defender.

He was basically a top 5 rebounder for a decade. The NBA didn't count blocked shots until his 4th season, but over the next nine years he led the league 4 times and was top 3 five other times. He has 5 all defensive 1st and 6 all defensive 2nd teams to his name. It should be remembered that "All NBA teams" have only one center but two guards and forwards. Finally ThaRegul8r posted some time ago that the '70-'74 Bucks defense, anchored by Kareem, held their opponents to the lowest fg% allowed in the league.

So again, Kareem's defensive resume' is stellar, but he's rarely in the discussion of the greatest defenders of all time (at least not the ones I am privy to). Assuming that Russell is the consensus GOAT defender, where can we place Kareem? Is he on Hakeem's level, Thurmond's level, Mutombo's level? How good truly was he defensively?

WillC

09-29-2012, 02:52 PM

daily

09-29-2012, 06:02 PM

I wrote the following article which ranks the best defensive centers of all-time. Read the methodology carefully:

THE BEST DEFENSIVE CENTERS OF ALL-TIME (http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/best-defensive-centers-of-all-time.html)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is ranked a very impressive 7th.

Your methods need work, don't this this wrong. I'm all in favor of trying to find a way to make something tangible out of such a subjective subject. But you can't rely on defensive win shares alone to make case and you certainly can't limit it to a certain range of age.

Maybe a rating system that uses DWS as a baseline but not by itself

WillC

09-29-2012, 06:14 PM

Your methods need work, don't this this wrong. I'm all in favor of trying to find a way to make something tangible out of such a subjective subject. But you can't rely on defensive win shares alone to make case and you certainly can't limit it to a certain range of age.

Maybe a rating system that uses DWS as a baseline but not by itself

I'm fully aware of the limitations of the method I used. It's obviously not perfect. Far from it.

However, the results are almost in line with what I'd expect to see. So clearly the method isn't too bad.

daily

09-29-2012, 06:49 PM

I'm fully aware of the limitations of the method I used. It's obviously not perfect. Far from it.

However, the results are almost in line with what I'd expect to see. So clearly the method isn't too bad.So how do you justify using DWS when you have to be on a winning team to garner DWS. you could be the greatest defender the world has ever seen and if your team loses every game of the season you'll have zero DWS that season

As an example when the Lakers went 24-19 Kobe had 1 DWS.
The previous season season he had a 3 DWS rating and the season following the 24-19 season he had a DWS of 3.5. All three years his steal and block numbers were nearly identical. Clearly the numbers were influenced much more by the Lakers record than Kobe efforts.

DWS is a team stat broken down to an individual level but it's entirely influenced by a teams win loss record.

So you can take that stat and adjust it up and down left and right and back and forth but in the end you're adjusting a stat that was never meant to be used to compare players. It's a stat meant to compare players within the framework of one season and on one team

Until you start adjusting it against the players teams record and possibly even the league averages per team record across the decades your just making worthless noise.

This why there's a defensive rating system. Shame the stats required to use DRTG across the eras are not availble for the earlier years

WillC

09-29-2012, 06:56 PM

daily, all of those are valid points - I agree with you.

I still find the results interesting. There's not much that jumps out as being 'wrong' about the final rankings.

daily

09-29-2012, 07:04 PM

daily, all of those are valid points - I agree with you.

I still find the results interesting. There's not much that jumps out as being 'wrong' about the final rankings.On a phone, can't keep jumping back and forth where's Moses Malone on your list? He should be top 5 top 8 at the worst

ThaRegul8r

09-29-2012, 08:25 PM

On a phone, can't keep jumping back and forth where's Moses Malone on your list? He should be top 5 top 8 at the worst

...

Absolutely not is Moses Malone a top 5-8 defensive center of all time. I'm not sure whether this is a presumption that because he was a center and a 3-time MVP that he automatically had to be an all-time great defensive center, but such was not the case. The subject here is defense, not overall ranking.

fpliii

09-29-2012, 08:32 PM

he's underrated defensively purely because that aspect of his game is never talked about, but it's hard for me to give an exact placement since I haven't seen very much of him pre-Magic

I'd conservatively put him down as a top 20 defensive anchor all-time, but he's probably higher than that...I just can't put him there since I haven't watched/read enough of him in his prime

ThaRegul8r

09-29-2012, 08:47 PM

Kareem's defensive resume' is stellar, but he's rarely in the discussion of the greatest defenders of all time (at least not the ones I am privy to). Assuming that Russell is the consensus GOAT defender, where can we place Kareem? Is he on Hakeem's level, Thurmond's level, Mutombo's level?

I only wanted to comment on one thing, as he rarely gets his due. Russell is the consensus GOAT defender, but Thurmond is the consensus second-only-to-Russell among the people who were actually there at the time. He doesn't get his due now because most people don't know about anything before Magic and Bird, and so Thurmond's name has slipped through the cracks in discussions about all-time greatest defenders. So no, Kareem wasn't on Thurmond's level defensively.

1987_Lakers

09-29-2012, 10:47 PM

Elite defender in the 70's, his defense seemed to fall off once the 80's came around. From '70-'73 Wilt was considered to be the better defender and Walton as well during the '77 & '78 season. If you eliminate Walton & Chamberlain, Kareem is considered to best defensive center in the league from '71-'81.

iamgine

09-29-2012, 11:01 PM

I wrote the following article which ranks the best defensive centers of all-time. Read the methodology carefully:

THE BEST DEFENSIVE CENTERS OF ALL-TIME (http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/best-defensive-centers-of-all-time.html)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is ranked a very impressive 7th.
Why use age and not # of seasons the player has been in the league? (i.e year 3 - 10)

Or better yet, take a player's top 6 win shares season and divide it by the #of games played in those seasons. I would like to see the result of that.

eliteballer

09-30-2012, 12:07 AM

On a phone, can't keep jumping back and forth where's Moses Malone on your list? He should be top 5 top 8 at the worst

Is this a joke.

magictricked

09-30-2012, 12:13 AM

Is this a joke.He's not that high but Malone was a very good man to man defender who could defend the PF and center position. He didn't put up the stats others did but he had a large defensive impact on games with his activity. Highly underrated on D by those that didn't see him play and only have stats to go by

Pointguard

09-30-2012, 02:16 AM

Kareem had very good anticipation and his length seemed to be like Eaton's. Eaton rarely gets much play in these best defensive center debates despite having the best block numbers over his prime - like nine years of averaging more than 4 blocks per game. Kareem doesn't get the elite defensive player status because he didn't have a lot of bounce in his step. Russell covered a lot of ground because of his lively feet (Garnett, Ben Wallace, Hakeem, Robinson) all subscribe to the lively feet terminology. These players are the hardest to evade because they are always in movement and constantly adjusting. They cover more space and can keep you out of the lane with their feet. Then there are the guys of great length (Bol, Eaton, Kareem, Dikembe, Camby). Its extremely hard to go over the top of them and they have good timing. Wilt was a bit of both, not as quick with the feet as the first bunch, tho, but just as lively.

Ironically, people like to use the term "anchor' on the second group more so than the first group, despite usually ranking the first group as better defenders overall (the exception would be Duncan/Garnett comparison's tho, the arguments has them close to being even on these boards). If you have a lot of bounce in your feet its easier to be a help team defender and to deny post position. The first group is more likely to be better at rebounding. But young Kareem was a solid rebounder and Dikembe was among the best rebounders around. I agree with 1987Lakers, Kareem was behind Walton those years and Wilt in his most lively feet years.

To me, you have the Russell/Wilt/Thurmond cluster. Then you have the Deke/Hakeem/Robinson - these guys covered a lot of ground, played great defense and rebounded well. My next cluster is Kareem/Eaton/Wallace/Ewing.
So I have Kareem as 7 thru 11. Which is still very high.

Asukal

09-30-2012, 02:21 AM

WillC

09-30-2012, 03:04 AM

Why use age and not # of seasons the player has been in the league? (i.e year 3 - 10)

Or better yet, take a player's top 6 win shares season and divide it by the #of games played in those seasons. I would like to see the result of that.

Years 3-10 wouldn't work because it would be unfair on players who entered the league out of high school, e.g. Jermaine O'Neal, Andrew Bynum, etc.

If you do it by age, you get a fairer impression of a player's ability during their peak.

Having said that, I like your 'top 6 win shares' suggestion.

Legends66NBA7

09-30-2012, 03:19 AM

I'm not a big win shares fan, but I do have a question for you Will.

What do you know about the advanced metric 'Loss Shares' ? How do you calculate it ? And is still being kept track off ? Does have any proper guage or merit ?

I've seen it on basketball reference, but I don't know if it's updated anymore.

julizaver

09-30-2012, 07:57 AM

I only wanted to comment on one thing, as he rarely gets his due. Russell is the consensus GOAT defender, but Thurmond is the consensus second-only-to-Russell among the people who were actually there at the time. He doesn't get his due now because most people don't know about anything before Magic and Bird, and so Thurmond's name has slipped through the cracks in discussions about all-time greatest defenders. So no, Kareem wasn't on Thurmond's level defensively.

Reading old newspapers Nate was rated as the best one on one defender, while Russell better overall (contribute more to the team defence). BUT it is hard to said how good was Kareem defensevely since he never concentrate solely on defence like late Wilt for example.
I tend to agree with you also about Nate being ahead of Kareem defensively, because Kareem lack the intensity and toughness of Thurmond in defense. And it is not only about skills it is also about nature and mentality. I read several interviews with Nate claiming modestly that no one can stop Jabbar and he just make Kareem working harder for his shots.
The one approach to evaluate Kareem will be to research Kareem games against centers who had strong offensive games at his prime years, I mean to see what their FG % is ? Anyway with his mobility and quickness Kareem helps a lot with Bucks team defense.

julizaver

09-30-2012, 08:05 AM

Defense is harder to measure than offense. Most people will just look at spg and bpg then make a conclusion but if you truly understand the game you know that defense is much more than that. Defense has a lot of intangibles which can't be measured like denying the ball, guarding the strong side of the offensive player, trapping, blocking the passing lanes, help defense, knowing when to switch, forcing a non jump shooter into a jump shot, boxing out for a rebound, etc. Those things can't be measured statistically, its something you will see in a player if you watch him play. So to measure Kareem's defensive ability, an indepth analysis is needed which requires a lot of work moreso specially if you are going to compare him to other centers. Anyone willing to do the work? :D

Yes, agree with that, sometimes the box scores do not show the whole picture. This information could be provide by people who actually saw Kareem play, or his contemporaries and opponents. BUT as i say in my previous post the offensive game/skills of Kareem overshadows his defensive contributions.

Pointguard

09-30-2012, 11:36 AM

Defense is harder to measure than offense. Most people will just look at spg and bpg then make a conclusion but if you truly understand the game you know that defense is much more than that. Defense has a lot of intangibles which can't be measured like denying the ball, guarding the strong side of the offensive player, trapping, blocking the passing lanes, help defense, knowing when to switch, forcing a non jump shooter into a jump shot, boxing out for a rebound, etc. Those things can't be measured statistically, its something you will see in a player if you watch him play. So to measure Kareem's defensive ability, an indepth analysis is needed which requires a lot of work moreso, specially if you are going to compare him to other centers. Anyone willing to do the work? :D
Great defensive players usually have, outside of some advantageous physicality: A) enthusiasm to play it as it will inspire others as well, B) great judgment (when to go for a shot, or pass, or how to keep a player contained and a great idea of how far his risk can go), C) Great timing, D)Great Reflexes, E)A solid understanding of how to limit the offensive teams schemes, F) Mobility. In the future it will be G) communication. which should be one of the most important traits but very few do it or have done it. If you read the Art of War or any Commander in Chief manual its a major component.

I might have missed something as I did it off the top of my head. But its a beginning point.

Whoah10115

09-30-2012, 02:24 PM

Lakers Kareem looked lazy to me. Even in the Finals vs. Walton and in the years prior to Magic. The year with Magic already looks different. But before and after that he looked lazy as hell to cover the pick n' roll and didn't contest shots unless he knew he would block them. He hardly ever put a body on people.

feyki

02-10-2016, 02:19 PM

Only Bill,Hakeem,Wilt,Duncan,Admiral,Thurmond and Ben were better in NBA History .

Kvnzhangyay

02-10-2016, 02:25 PM

Kareem didn't try at all until the playoffs

ArbitraryWater

02-10-2016, 03:33 PM

On a phone, can't keep jumping back and forth where's Moses Malone on your list? He should be top 5 top 8 at the worst

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

He's not that high but Malone was a very good man to man defender who could defend the PF and center position. He didn't put up the stats others did but he had a large defensive impact on games with his activity. Highly underrated on D by those that didn't see him play and only have stats to go by

dude came in here answering with his alt :roll:

senelcoolidge

02-10-2016, 05:38 PM

He was much better when he first came into the league..young Kareem. Young Kareem was so long and very athletic. A beast.

SexSymbol

02-10-2016, 05:48 PM

Kareem was soft on defense and was worse than current pau gasol on defense post 1980.
He was a pretty good defender while he was young tho, and obviously a great rebounder.

72-10

02-10-2016, 05:53 PM

I think Kareem might be a little overrated defensively when taking his statistics into account. For instance, he racked up pretty impressive blocks totals in the 70s, but from the little film I have watched (which will be considerably more in the future), he seemed to get out of position sometimes.

He kind of fell off statistically in the 80s, particularly concerning defensive rebounds. I think he wanted to take less of a lead role then, though. Being surrounded by such talent might have contributed to that mindset.

72-10

02-10-2016, 05:54 PM

Only Bill,Hakeem,Wilt,Duncan,Admiral,Thurmond and Ben were better in NBA History .

And Dwight.

feyki

02-10-2016, 05:57 PM

Kareem was soft on defense and was worse than current pau gasol on defense post 1980.
He was a pretty good defender while he was young tho, and obviously a great rebounder.

He wasn't soft until his 40 .

He was the best defender of Lakers in between 80-87 . Btw , Pau was good defender too in my mind .

He averaged 1.3 steals and 3.2 blocks on 100 poss at between 81-87 playoffs . That's prime Ewing level .

feyki

02-10-2016, 05:58 PM

And Dwight.

Peak wise , Walton too . But Kareem has better defensive career and prime to me .

SexSymbol

02-10-2016, 06:04 PM

He wasn't soft until his 40 .

He was the best defender of Lakers in between 80-87 . Btw , Pau was good defender too in my mind .

He averaged 1.3 steals and 3.2 blocks on 100 poss at between 81-87 playoffs . That's prime Ewing level .
Pau was a pretty good defender, that's why I said current pau.
And he was definitely soft, you watch video from 1980s, even the finals, he was just afraid of throwing his body into people and was a little lost on team defense from time to time.

72-10

02-10-2016, 06:05 PM

He wasn't soft until his 40 .

He was the best defender of Lakers in between 80-87 . Btw , Pau was good defender too in my mind .

He averaged 1.3 steals and 3.2 blocks on 100 poss at between 81-87 playoffs . That's prime Ewing level .

You seem to be forgetting Michael Cooper. Kareem was getting like 2 blocks a night at the age of 36 in an era when they drove to the hole a lot (1983-84). Ironically, he blocked more shots in 1984-85.

feyki

02-10-2016, 06:24 PM

Pau was a pretty good defender, that's why I said current pau.
And he was definitely soft, you watch video from 1980s, even the finals, he was just afraid of throwing his body into people and was a little lost on team defense from time to time.

I did watch all 80's Finals , beside of late 80's . Kareem was great on defending at 82 and 80 finals . Maybe , He was close average in 85 Finals . Cause he focused on offence too much .But 87 and 84 Finals were good , especially on help defence . And he was main shot blocker and rim protector of 81-87 Lakers .

Every player has some lack . Kareem wasn't good one on one defender or he wasn't physical beast on defence like Ben Wallace or Nate Thurmond anytime in his career .

You seem to be forgetting Michael Cooper. Kareem was getting like 2 blocks a night at the age of 36 in an era when they drove to the hole a lot (1983-84). Ironically, he blocked more shots in 1984-85.

Especially in bigger areas , like Finals . Kareem was more important defender imo . I think Cooper was better individual defender than Old Kareem(after 84) but like i said in finals Kareem was better imo . And especially in between 80-84 , Kareem was clearly best defender of that Lakers team .