#55 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[Deuce Bigalow]

Ray Allen was voted the #54 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops.

20 PPG | 4.2 RPG | 3.6 APG

NBA Champion
10

[Fudge]

Robert Parish

[coin24]

Lets get Pau in here:rockon:

[pauk]

:facepalm

Reggie > Ray.

[coin24]

:facepalm

Reggie > Ray.


Not according to ISH:oldlol: :oldlol:

[plowking]

:facepalm

Reggie > Ray.

At what? Because its certainly not basketball. Reggie wasn't even a top 5 SG of his generation.

[nycelt84]

I don't agree with Ray in that spot above but he was certainly better than Reggie. My vote is for Sam Jones.

[Kblaze8855]

Im thinking Sam, Parish, Cunningham, Durant, and Tiny are all reasonable picks now but I expect them to split the vote too much for any of them to even get 5. The Reggie votes repeat and hes in. I think he was in the 60s last time. Not sure where Robert and so on were.

[wally_world]

durantula for me

[pauk]

At what? Because its certainly not basketball. Reggie wasn't even a top 5 SG of his generation.

Wasnt a top 5 SG of his generation? Are you kidding me!? Overall only Jordan and Drexler were the better ones during his generation... Reggie was also Jordans biggest nemesis/rival at the SG spot overall... thats equivalent of Ray Allen being the biggest nemesis/rival of Kobe Bryant... and thats clearly not the case is it... and Kobe was even worse than Michael Jordan...

There is just some intangibles, killer instinct, competitive spirit you cant measure on paper (something which Ray Allen lacked)... something which Reggie is in discussion of being the best / one of the best ever at.... and something which he even used to always humiliate Ray Allen himself during their matchups despite his age...

I would love to see Ray Allen come to Reggies days and try be that to Jordan or to those other players....

I would also love to see him try and be a top 5 SG or be selected an all-star that many times when he had guys like this that would more or less kept him out of the all-star game various seasons or kept him from being a top 5 SG various seasons: Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, John Starks, Latrell Sprewell, Hersey Hawkins, Nick Anderson, Drazen Petrovic and so on......... Today he has only Kobe or Wade to battle that spot with, even if he loses he will still be an all-star or a top 5 SG due to the lack of SG talent... Last time he was an all-star was in 2011 where he averaged 16 PPG, he was not even close to even being the best player in his team, still got in... good luck with trying to be that "all-star" during Reggies generation... those 16 ppg pure shooters came in huge packs... many who were even better shooters and players than Ray Allen never even got to be all-stars (Drazen Petrovic is an example)...

I would also love to see him be recognized as the best shooter when there were guys like this around: Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Dale Ellis, Dell Curry, Mark Price, Nick Anderson, Drazen Petrovic, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr and so on and so on...... Today he has only Nash or Dirk to battle that honor with due to the lack of such pure shooters....

By the time Ray Allen would be finished with his career he would be remembered as nothing but one of the many normal pure shooters that played in the late 80s and 90s, that wasnt a Top 3 SG (like Reggie was) during that generation and that has missed many all-star spots... he would have not been as recognized as he is today where he benefits from a weaker SG era and a weaker Shooter era....

Ray Allen is starting to get overrated, Reggie would made Ray nothing but a forgotten memory... players like Ray Allen came in a dozen during his time and he was killing them all (people were forced to see the difference between others "like him" when it came down to the time when it all mattered), only Jordan & Drexler were in the way (and once Drexler decreased only Jordan was in the way)..

[Kblaze8855]

I would also love to see him try and be a top 5 SG or be selected an all-star that many times when he had guys like this that would more or less kept him out of the all-star game various seasons or kept him from being a top 5 SG various seasons: Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, John Starks, Latrell Sprewell, Hersey Hawkins, Nick Anderson, Drazen Petrovic and so on.........


Ignoring for a moment that several of them were not in the proper conference to keep him out of the ASG....and that the ASG is guard/forward/center so it was playersl ike BJ Armstrong, Mookie Blaylock, Kenny Anderson and so on keeping him out as well....

When Dan Majerle, Nick Anderson, and Hersey Hawkins keep you from being anything level wise...you arent anything close to top 50. And comparing 90s swingmen(which reggie was...he played the 3 as well) to the 2000s is a joke. There were more great swingmen the last 10 years than ever before.

Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Carter, AI, Tmac, and so on...the worst of them compares to Clyde Drexler as a straight up basketball player.

2004 in place of Michael Redd is the only season Reggie would have a great shot at an all nba third team since 2000. Maybe sneak in over Joe Johnson when someone is injured. The 05 third team had Kobe and Mcgrady. The worst players to make those teams were usually having what would be career years for Reggie(like Arenas dropping 30 a night).

50-90s were the time of bigmen. Now is the time of guards.

Make reggie contend with Kobe, Wade, Deron, Ray, AI, Tmac, Durant, Paul, Rondo, Nash and so on for a spot...hes not touching all NBA third team in any season the 6 top guards/swingmen/whatever are healthy.

He was knocked out of his spot by Rod Strickland. What is he gonna do with Chris Paul, Wade, Kobe, Nash, Deron, Tmac, Manu and so on all having good years mid to late 2000s?

Hes not even taking Brandon Roys spot.

[JellyBean]

So many options to pick from. Looking at my list, I am voting for my man Artis Gilmore. Gilmore is one of the most underrated players in NBA history. Artis Gilmore for me.

[plowking]

Wasnt a top 5 SG of his generation? Are you kidding me!? Overall only Jordan and Drexler were the better ones during his generation... Reggie was also Jordans biggest nemesis/rival at the SG spot overall... thats equivalent of Ray Allen being the biggest nemesis/rival of Kobe Bryant... and thats clearly not the case is it... and Kobe was even worse than Michael Jordan...

There is just some intangibles, killer instinct, competitive spirit you cant measure on paper (something which Ray Allen lacked)... something which Reggie is in discussion of being the best / one of the best ever at.... and something which he even used to always humiliate Ray Allen himself during their matchups despite his age...

I would love to see Ray Allen come to Reggies days and try be that to Jordan or to those other players....

I would also love to see him try and be a top 5 SG or be selected an all-star that many times when he had guys like this that would more or less kept him out of the all-star game various seasons or kept him from being a top 5 SG various seasons: Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, John Starks, Latrell Sprewell, Hersey Hawkins, Nick Anderson, Drazen Petrovic and so on......... Today he has only Kobe or Wade to battle that spot with, even if he loses he will still be an all-star or a top 5 SG due to the lack of SG talent... Last time he was an all-star was in 2011 where he averaged 16 PPG, he was not even close to even being the best player in his team, still got in... good luck with trying to be that "all-star" during Reggies generation... those 16 ppg pure shooters came in huge packs... many who were even better shooters and players than Ray Allen never even got to be all-stars (Drazen Petrovic is an example)...

I would also love to see him be recognized as the best shooter when there were guys like this around: Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Dale Ellis, Dell Curry, Mark Price, Nick Anderson, Drazen Petrovic, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr and so on and so on...... Today he has only Nash or Dirk to battle that honor with due to the lack of such pure shooters....

By the time Ray Allen would be finished with his career he would be remembered as nothing but one of the many normal pure shooters that played in the late 80s and 90s, that wasnt a Top 3 SG (like Reggie was) during that generation and that has missed many all-star spots... he would have not been as recognized as he is today where he benefits from a weaker SG era and a weaker Shooter era....

Ray Allen is starting to get overrated, Reggie would made Ray nothing but a forgotten memory... players like Ray Allen came in a dozen during his time and he was killing them all (people were forced to see the difference between others "like him" when it came down to the time when it all mattered), only Jordan & Drexler were in the way (and once Drexler decreased only Jordan was in the way)..

Funny you list guys all those guys at the SG spot during Reggie's playing days... Since a lot of them were better SG's than Reggie.

LOL at Ray Allen lacking killer instinct and clutch. Reggie has failed so many times in his career. He won one big playoff series in his life and got this clutch aura about him. Over their careers Ray Allen is the one that has time and time again stepped up. Not Reggie.

[StateOfMind12]

LOL at Ray Allen lacking killer instinct and clutch. Reggie has failed so many times in his career. He won one big playoff series in his life and got this clutch aura about him. Over their careers Ray Allen is the one that has time and time again stepped up. Not Reggie.
Reggie is a much better playoff performer than Ray and all the numbers/metrics back it up.

Yes, he didn't win much, bu winning a lot of the team is not in control of one player, it's in control of an entire team.

Plus, if you want to really argue, Reggie consistently made it to the post-season each and every season whereas Ray didn't. Ray missed the post-season for most of his prime when he was the #1 option on his team.

[MasterDurant24]

Wasnt a top 5 SG of his generation? Are you kidding me!? Overall only Jordan and Drexler were the better ones during his generation... Reggie was also Jordans biggest nemesis/rival at the SG spot overall... thats equivalent of Ray Allen being the biggest nemesis/rival of Kobe Bryant... and thats clearly not the case is it... and Kobe was even worse than Michael Jordan...

There is just some intangibles, killer instinct, competitive spirit you cant measure on paper (something which Ray Allen lacked)... something which Reggie is in discussion of being the best / one of the best ever at.... and something which he even used to always humiliate Ray Allen himself during their matchups despite his age...

I would love to see Ray Allen come to Reggies days and try be that to Jordan or to those other players....

I would also love to see him try and be a top 5 SG or be selected an all-star that many times when he had guys like this that would more or less kept him out of the all-star game various seasons or kept him from being a top 5 SG various seasons: Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, John Starks, Latrell Sprewell, Hersey Hawkins, Nick Anderson, Drazen Petrovic and so on......... Today he has only Kobe or Wade to battle that spot with, even if he loses he will still be an all-star or a top 5 SG due to the lack of SG talent... Last time he was an all-star was in 2011 where he averaged 16 PPG, he was not even close to even being the best player in his team, still got in... good luck with trying to be that "all-star" during Reggies generation... those 16 ppg pure shooters came in huge packs... many who were even better shooters and players than Ray Allen never even got to be all-stars (Drazen Petrovic is an example)...

I would also love to see him be recognized as the best shooter when there were guys like this around: Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Dale Ellis, Dell Curry, Mark Price, Nick Anderson, Drazen Petrovic, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr and so on and so on...... Today he has only Nash or Dirk to battle that honor with due to the lack of such pure shooters....

By the time Ray Allen would be finished with his career he would be remembered as nothing but one of the many normal pure shooters that played in the late 80s and 90s, that wasnt a Top 3 SG (like Reggie was) during that generation and that has missed many all-star spots... he would have not been as recognized as he is today where he benefits from a weaker SG era and a weaker Shooter era....

Ray Allen is starting to get overrated, Reggie would made Ray nothing but a forgotten memory... players like Ray Allen came in a dozen during his time and he was killing them all (people were forced to see the difference between others "like him" when it came down to the time when it all mattered), only Jordan & Drexler were in the way (and once Drexler decreased only Jordan was in the way)..
If only Jordan & Drexler were in the way all throughout the 90's, then why did Reggie only make 3 All-NBA 3rd teams and make 5 all star teams in 20 years, even with the fact that Drexler was in the west. Reggie lost out to Mitch Richmond(who was without a doubt a better player than Reggie), Tim Hardaway, and Rod Strickland for those All-NBA spots. Reggie was simply an onedimensional player who got overrated because of a few clutch moments, Ray Allen was a better basketball player in almost every single way.

[Heilige]

Sam Jones

[plowking]

Reggie is a much better playoff performer than Ray and all the numbers/metrics back it up.

Yes, he didn't win much, bu winning a lot of the team is not in control of one player, it's in control of an entire team.

Plus, if you want to really argue, Reggie consistently made it to the post-season each and every season whereas Ray didn't. Ray missed the post-season for most of his prime when he was the #1 option on his team.

Yet even with that, Ray's playoff career and resume is far more memorable.

[Whoah10115]

I guess I'll go with Reggie Miller, tho KJ is making me think twice...also some consideration for Joe Dumars.

[Kblaze8855]

Plus, if you want to really argue, Reggie consistently made it to the post-season each and every season whereas Ray didn't.


The year smits missed games the Pacers missed the playoffs.

And the Pacers made the playoffs with records Ray missed them. He led like 6-7 teams in the 41 win range and I know the Bucks in 03 or so were around that. Reggie had started falling off a bit before the Pacers were a serious team. People have this odd belief that his prime was in his 30s or something.

It wasnt. Reggie in late 1989 was doing as much or more than he was when people remember him. I watched those game. The young Reggie.

Reggie in his prime led a team that didnt matter. He was 28-38 when he was winning on teams that didnt ask him to do much.

The only version of Reggie id consider close to a real star....was losing. Reggie was sat down by Larry Brown and asked to take a back seat. Win with team defense and leaning on the frontcourt and spreading the ball around.

But Reggie playing his best....straight up so what level teams.

They turned around with good coaching, defensive role players, a good frontcourt, and toughness. Reggie was as far as...approach...that "**** you" kinda gritty play...their leader. But he was doing less on the floor than he was before.

[IGOTGAME]

I still have trouble putting Ray Allen this close to the top 50. Just feels wrong.

[jlip]

Not that I'm voting for him, but I'm still amazed at the fact that Jerry (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lucasje01.html) Lucas (http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/bio.html?player=jerry_lucas) keeps getting absolutely no votes.

He is the only player not named Wilt or Pettit to have avg. 20ppg and 20rpg in a season. He did it twice. Pettit did it only once. While I don't particularly know that much about his reputation amongst his peers, his resume', on paper, is quite impressive. I do know that he was known as one of the best shooting forwards of the 60's.

1964 NBA Rookie of the Year
1964-65 NBA All-Star Game MVP
NBA champ (1973 Knicks)

7X All star
3X NBA All-NBA (1st)
2X NBA All-NBA (2nd)

Led league in fg% in 1964 (Edged out Wilt)
Was a top 4 rebounder for most of his career. (Normally right behind Wilt and Russell)

[haji_d_robertas]

Kevin Durant

[G.O.A.T]

Ignoring for a moment that several of them were not in the proper conference to keep him out of the ASG....and that the ASG is guard/forward/center so it was playersl ike BJ Armstrong, Mookie Blaylock, Kenny Anderson and so on keeping him out as well....

You are referencing 1994 for those three players, that year was a clear snub for Miller, who was the top scoring guard in the East. In the games following the all-star diss, Miller posted 25 with 9 assists and 5 steals, 25-5-4 and 21 points on 9-11 shooting. He then proceeded to lead the Pacers to the Conference Finals and made the all-star team every season the rest of the decade with the exception of 1997 when the Pacers imploded on Larry Brown and did not send a player to the game.

Prior to 1994, Miller was not an all-star level guard, he posted good numbers but he hadn't shown the type of player he could be in the postseason for an extended period.

He really burst onto the scene in the 1993 playoffs when he averaged over 30 a game against a Knicks defense that ranked among the all-time greatest in points per possession allowed. In the '94 series he averaged over 30 in the final four games of that battle as well.



When Dan Majerle, Nick Anderson, and Hersey Hawkins keep you from being anything level wise...you arent anything close to top 50.

What do you mean here? What did Hawk, Thunder Dan or Nick the Brick ever do claim superiority to Reggie?


As much as you think Miller gets overrated by today's younger fans or the casual fan 20-somethings, I think you are underrating what he did. The Pacers were relevant for nearly a decade with Miller leading the way with steady efficient 20 a night scoring and relentless away from the ball movement, which was the driving force of the Pacers offense, all while consistently elevating his level of play in the postseason.

Coaches changed, teammates changed, opponents changed and Miller remained the face of the franchise and the franchise remained a contender.

Unquestionably Tracy McGrady was a better player than Reggie Miller, but I'd rather have Reggie's career and that's not just because T-Mac had awful teammates in Orlando and played in a super-competitive Western Conference. I know Miller is going to raise his game in the playoffs and I know his game will always help his teammates and never impeded them.


The year smits missed games the Pacers missed the playoffs.

This is a bit of misrepresentation, especially from someone with your knowledge.

That season Indiana also had a bitter, trying to get fired Larry brown coaching them. Traded Mark Jackson (only to get him back from Denver the next year), lost McKey for 30 games and traded away veteran reserves Ricky Pierce and Eddie Johnson, both former sixth men of the year.

Somehow I don't think just Smits missing 10 more games than he did the year prior was the difference.

[StateOfMind12]

Yet even with that, Ray's playoff career and resume is far more memorable.
Based on what? Ray was not as good of a playoff performer as Reggie was. Ray has put up a lot of stinkers in the playoffs especially with Boston whereas Reggie hardly ever has or never did at least during his prime.

Just a copy and paste from another post I made.

2008 - Ray Allen was playing like hot garbage until the NBA finals. In the ECSF vs. the Cavs, Ray scored less than 10 ppg and wasn't even the 3rd leading scorer on the team, KG, Pierce, and even Rondo averaged more ppg than Ray did in that series.

The only reason why that series went to 7 games was because of how bad Ray played. If he played better than that, that series would have went to 5 games max. It shouldn't have went to 7 games but it did due to how poorly Ray played.

Ray vs. 2008 Cavs in ECSF- 9.3 ppg, 32.8% FG, 16.7% 3P.

2009 - Ray Allen plays like hot garbage against the Orlando Magic. This was the series where JJ Redick made a name for himself. In the past, people considered Redick a bust, a joke, and practically the Adam Morrison of the league. JJ Reddick literally shut down Ray in that series.

Ray vs. 2009 Magic in ECSF - 13.1 ppg, 34.4% FG, 19% from 3.

2010 - Ray Allen flames out in the Finals. He had a historic performance in Game 2 of the Finals but was invisible for the rest of the series. He shot 0/13 in Game 3 and 3/14 in Game 7.

Ray vs. 2010 Lakers in NBA Finals - 14.6 ppg, 36.7% FG, 29.3% from 3.

[Legends66NBA7]

50-90s were the time of bigmen. Now is the time of guards.

I'd probably say it extends a little in the 00's... from 2000-04, up until they changed the rules to free up the perimeter players.

Plus, 00-04 had deep power forward rotation with Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, and C-Webb... with the like of Pau Gasol, Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand etc.. not far away either. Also, you had arguably the greatest peak player ever at center in Shaq from 00-02.

While going back to the rest of your post, I do think 00-04 might have had the best mix of superstar guards and superstar big men.

05-present for sure is the time of the guards, clearly. Probably just decade thing, I believe you were going for.

[BoutPractice]

Robert Parish.

[WillC]

Sam Jones

(Way more deserving than Robert Parish IMO)

[It's A VC3!!!]

Vince Carter

[Kblaze8855]

You are referencing 1994 for those three players, that year was a clear snub for Miller, who was the top scoring guard in the East. In the games following the all-star diss, Miller posted 25 with 9 assists and 5 steals, 25-5-4 and 21 points on 9-11 shooting.


Its amazing to me how ordinary the games are that people point out Reggie having. He responded to the diss with two 25 ppoint game and 21 on good shooting? What are we talking about Ben Gordon or a second ballot hall of famer? Responding to a diss is...Karl Malone dropping 60 on the Bucks because AC Green got the spot over him. Isiah lighting up Stockton for making the dream team. Hakeem vs Drob after he watched him get theMVP. Barkley eating the warriors alive in the playoffs after a big deal was made of Webber dunking on him.

Reggie Miller responds to the diss...with games that wouldnt stand out in an average week for Steve Smith on the Hawks.



He then proceeded to lead the Pacers to the Conference Finals and made the all-star team every season the rest of the decade with the exception of 1997 when the Pacers imploded on Larry Brown and did not send a player to the game.


So he made it every year of a brief stretch(except when he didnt)...and those were just about the only ones in 19 years. Not sure what there is to discuss there.


Prior to 1994, Miller was not an all-star level guard, he posted good numbers but he hadn't shown the type of player he could be in the postseason for an extended period.

He had not had a team that should be expected to be in the playoffs for an extended period. He didnt learn to shoot or start being clutch in his late 20s.



He really burst onto the scene in the 1993 playoffs when he averaged over 30 a game against a Knicks defense that ranked among the all-time greatest in points per possession allowed. In the '94 series he averaged over 30 in the final four games of that battle as well.

Again...it amuses me how little he needs to do to be praised. Tmac puts up 30 a game and loses hes a loser. Reggie does it hes proven something.




What do you mean here? What did Hawk, Thunder Dan or Nick the Brick ever do claim superiority to Reggie?

Ask Pauk. He said they were among the great guards who kept Reggie from being top 5 some years.




As much as you think Miller gets overrated by today's younger fans or the casual fan 20-somethings, I think you are underrating what he did.


i'll go into that later.



The Pacers were relevant for nearly a decade


Far as being known...sure. But they won 55 and up...what...twice? They will not be remembered as one of the best of their time. not even the best who didnt win. Not even...top 5 who didnt win. They are the "Almost doesnt count" posterboys of the 90s Jazz aside.


with Miller leading the way with steady efficient 20 a night scoring and relentless away from the ball movement, which was the driving force of the Pacers offense

The Pacers offense wasnt the driving force of the Pacers team...and Reggie was often not the go to player even on that side of the ball. Rik smits played low minutes but when he was on the floor he had the ball more than Reggie did.




all while consistently elevating his level of play in the postseason.


Worse youare the more room you have to improve. relative to regular season Reggie elevated his game more than Michael Jordan some years. But when MJ starts out a 98 and goes to a 99....and Reggie starts a 75 and goes to 85...its pretty so what to me.

Reggie elevating his game is prime Vince Carter on an average night.


Coaches changed, teammates changed, opponents changed and Miller remained the face of the franchise and the franchise remained a contender.

A contender in that....there is no way in hell they are gonna win...kinda way.



Unquestionably Tracy McGrady was a better player than Reggie Miller, but I'd rather have Reggie's career and that's not just because T-Mac had awful teammates in Orlando and played in a super-competitive Western Conference. I know Miller is going to raise his game in the playoffs and I know his game will always help his teammates and never impeded them.


Id rather have Reggies career than Bill Waltons. But....




This is a bit of misrepresentation, especially from someone with your knowledge.

That season Indiana also had a bitter, trying to get fired Larry brown coaching them. Traded Mark Jackson (only to get him back from Denver the next year), lost McKey for 30 games and traded away veteran reserves Ricky Pierce and Eddie Johnson, both former sixth men of the year.

Somehow I don't think just Smits missing 10 more games than he did the year prior was the difference.


I wasnt googling the team. I just remember that Smits was out when they missed the playoffs. Far as the rest....total "So what?" material. It happens. If we are gonna start running down the unfortunate things that go into a teams success or lack of it....a lot of guys are gonna move up this list before Reggie does. Look into some of the shit AI dealt with from 99-06. People dont care. Call him a loser.

The pacers didnt have issues worthy of a deep discussion on why that was a poor year. They just...had a bad year. But that dude didnt remember it and is telling me they made it every single season makes it even more obvious what is happening here....

People who were not around just....know Reggies name.

Thats the primary reason hes going on before he should.

People...know his name. Know his name and assume a lot of things that never happened. Like him being considered better than some guys who wouldnt make top 150....

I really dont think my opinions on him are far off. Not compared to these people who dont even remember him.

Larry Brown says hes not a leader and was not their best player. Phil Jackson says he voted Mckey for all star because hes their best player. Seems the other coaches largely didnt think much of Reggie...usually didnt select him. The hundreds of media members clearly didnt either. Only made him all nba twice...and it was third team.

But 20 years later im underrating him for putting him only a little above where reasonable people ranked him and not miles ahead of much better players because the emotion of seeing ESPN specials doesnt do anything to me?

One year the fans give Reggie half a million all star votes. Not enough to start. But more than who the coaches picked. The coaches....NBA coaches....they take Tim Hardaway. Joe Dumars, and Terrel Brandon. This is what NBA coaches choose. 15 years later....im the badguy for saying those guys are better than Reggie. Another year...Reggie 4th in voting. Coaches pass him up in favor of Stackhouse, Houston, Ray Allen and Marbury. Reggie gets less votes than Jeff Hornacek one year...like...60% less. From people watching at the time. The coaches? They selected Detlef from the Pacers. Passed on Reggie.

But 20 years later people who were 5 at the time are gonna tell me off for thinking what just about everyone thought at the time based on what we saw? Tell me im wrong and the coaches who didnt pick him, media who didnt pick him, and Larry Brown and Phil Jackson they are wrong....

Maybe we are. Maybe everyone was. Id just feel better about it if the idea that Reggie was better than all the guys he would be called better than now....came from when people were watching him.

Mark Jackson said recently that Reggie was better than Wade and Jerry West. I wonder if he would have said such a thing while it was all fresh? Nostalgia does something to people.

[Eric Cartman]

Sam Jones for me in this spot. Durant should be voted in the next few spots as well.

[G.O.A.T]

Its amazing to me how ordinary the games are that people point out Reggie having. He responded to the diss with two 25 ppoint game and 21 on good shooting? What are we talking about Ben Gordon or a second ballot hall of famer? Responding to a diss is...Karl Malone dropping 60 on the Bucks because AC Green got the spot over him. Isiah lighting up Stockton for making the dream team. Hakeem vs Drob after he watched him get theMVP. Barkley eating the warriors alive in the playoffs after a big deal was made of Webber dunking on him.

Reggie Miller responds to the diss...with games that wouldnt stand out in an average week for Steve Smith on the Hawks.

A fair point, in fact a good point that I'd probably make in your spot. I got those numbers from an SI blurb that mentioned him as the biggest all-star snub that year. As for this part though...



So he made it every year of a brief stretch(except when he didnt)...and those were just about the only ones in 19 years. Not sure what there is to discuss there.

He made it from '95 to '2000 (excluding '97), and should have in 1994, so essentially during the entire time he was in his prime on a contending team he was an all-star. Yes BJ Armstong, Hawkins, Majerle and an array of other flash in the pan guards like John Starks made one or two teams.



He had not had a team that should be expected to be in the playoffs for an extended period. He didnt learn to shoot or start being clutch in his late 20s.

He actually did start being clutch in his late 20's as the experience against teams like Detroit and Boston and the development of the team around him put in a better position to succeed.



Again...it amuses me how little he needs to do to be praised. Tmac puts up 30 a game and loses hes a loser. Reggie does it hes proven something.

T-MAC almost always played great in the playoffs and that should be praised, but he didn't ever score 30+ on an elite defense with remarkable efficiency. It doesn't mean Miller is a better player, but it is a significant achievement that few if any guards were or since have been able to replicate.



Ask Pauk. He said they were among the great guards who kept Reggie from being top 5 some years.

enough said.



Far as being known...sure. But they won 55 and up...what...twice? They will not be remembered as one of the best of their time. not even the best who didnt win. Not even...top 5 who didnt win. They are the "Almost doesnt count" posterboys of the 90s Jazz aside.

They were better than all teams whose best player was a non-elite guard.

That leads me to suspect Miller is closer to elite than his numbers suggest.



The Pacers offense wasnt the driving force of the Pacers team...and Reggie was often not the go to player even on that side of the ball. Rik smits played low minutes but when he was on the floor he had the ball more than Reggie did.

The offense revolved around Reggie. Smits was a 25 mpg player. Jackson and Davis, the other two big minute guys were not scorers or guys you ran plays for. Smits scored a good number of his points on jumpers are popping or fading off screens he set for Miller. The Davis' got tons of Dunks of slipping down screens when their defender showed too aggressively. Mullin, Best, Eddie Johnson, Rose how many times did they get to spot up for a three while Reggie was running around for 15 seconds trying to find space against a defense that was focused primarily on him.

We don't need to value that the same way. I don't need you to concede anything to me on this, but I have to know you understand what I am saying.



Worse you are the more room you have to improve. relative to regular season Reggie elevated his game more than Michael Jordan some years. But when MJ starts out a 98 and goes to a 99....and Reggie starts a 75 and goes to 85...its pretty so what to me.

Reggie elevating his game is prime Vince Carter on an average night.

Now you're just trying to hurt me.

All I am suggesting is that Miller could have posted better numbers during the regular season, but he saw the bigger picture and knew what would be best for the team. In some ways, from what I have gathered, he did essentially what Isiah Thomas did. Realized he wasn't as good as guys like Jordan, Ewing etc. and that if his team was going to beat their's his teammates were going to need to win their match-ups as often as possible.


A contender in that....there is no way in hell they are gonna win...kinda way.

They pushed both the '98 Bulls and '00 Lakers to the brink. They really should have beat the Bulls, but Jordan is Jordan.

Overall you're point is a strong one, but I'm trying to put Miller with guys like Barkley and Malone who didn't lead their teams to title's but probably could have. I'm trying to put Miller with guys like Cunningham, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars. Guys who had at least one elite skill but were not elite players, and could be your best player, but their real strength was being a team player who elevates his game in the big moments.



Id rather have Reggies career than Bill Waltons. But....

I'll take Walton's every time. I want to win a title.




I wasnt googling the team. I just remember that Smits was out when they missed the playoffs. Far as the rest....total "So what?" material. It happens. If we are gonna start running down the unfortunate things that go into a teams success or lack of it....a lot of guys are gonna move up this list before Reggie does. Look into some of the shit AI dealt with from 99-06. People dont care. Call him a loser.

The pacers didnt have issues worthy of a deep discussion on why that was a poor year. They just...had a bad year. But that dude didnt remember it and is telling me they made it every single season makes it even more obvious what is happening here....

The hell they didn't. This is just wrong on your part. That was a screwy season. I remember it well. They traded Jackson that off-season and eventually got him back in a trade but in the meantime they had no established point guard as even veteran Haywood Workman was injured for a good deal of the year. Smits had surgery the previous off-season and missed the start of the year, Mckey got hurt right about when Smits got back, all the while Brown was sulking and claiming he was the problem. When the Pacers tried to extend his contract, he said he needed time to think, he resigned after the season.

P
eople who were not around just....know Reggies name.

Thats the primary reason hes going on before he should.

People...know his name. Know his name and assume a lot of things that never happened. Like him being considered better than some guys who wouldnt make top 150....

I really dont think my opinions on him are far off. Not compared to these people who dont even remember him.

But that's not why I'm nominating him is it? Not that I can't be wrong, I usually am, just ask my wife.

But I had him 30 spots lower a few, three years ago. I've changed my mind not because of what I don't know but because of what I didn't know, that I do know now. The more I learned about that Pacers team in the 90's the more I came to appreciate Miller's contributions.


Larry Brown says hes not a leader and was not their best player. Phil Jackson says he voted Mckey for all star because hes their best player. Seems the other coaches largely didnt think much of Reggie...usually didnt select him. The hundreds of media members clearly didnt either. Only made him all nba twice...and it was third team.

Other than the quotes which mean very little to me once I know the context, this is the strongest argument against Miller and one I understand and accept as right, because it is just facts.


But 20 years later im underrating him for putting him only a little above where reasonable people ranked him and not miles ahead of much better players because the emotion of seeing ESPN specials doesnt do anything to me?

It's not your ranking or placement of him, it's how little credit you're willing to concede to him for things he did do because you don't agree with the conclusions other's draw based on those achievements.

Overall though I see and respect your point of view very much on this.


One year the fans give Reggie half a million all star votes. Not enough to start. But more than who the coaches picked. The coaches....NBA coaches....they take Tim Hardaway. Joe Dumars, and Terrel Brandon. This is what NBA coaches choose. 15 years later....im the badguy for saying those guys are better than Reggie. Another year...Reggie 4th in voting. Coaches pass him up in favor of Stackhouse, Houston, Ray Allen and Marbury. Reggie gets less votes than Jeff Hornacek one year...like...60% less. From people watching at the time. The coaches? They selected Detlef from the Pacers. Passed on Reggie.

You're not a bad guy.


Mark Jackson said recently that Reggie was better than Wade and Jerry West. I wonder if he would have said such a thing while it was all fresh? Nostalgia does something to people.

How'd the Warriors do last season?

[JellyBean]

I can't wait to see how this list shapes up in 5, 10, 15 years from now. Austin Rivers might crack the top 50.

[BIZARRO]

Had to write in due to all of the incredible ISH overrating of Reggie Miller. For those of us who saw him play for the entire duration of his career, many of us would have a hard time putting him in the top 75, let alone 55.
From the remaining players; Durant, Parish, Bernard King, Jones, Cunningham, Gilmore, Mcgrady, etc. are all viable choices depending on how you are looking at things.
But I'll go with DURANT, as at the end of the day I feel he will be considered the best player of all remaining.

[G.O.A.T]

But I'll go with DURANT, as at the end of the day I feel he will be considered the best player of all remaining.

I don't think that matters yet though. If Duran't career ended today he'd be more comparable to McGardy, Mourning and Webber I'd say.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nate 'Tiny' Archibald

[Whoah10115]

In his first 15 years in the league (12 playoff appearances), Reggie averaged under 20PPG once...the year they lost to the Bulls, 19.9PPG.



His career playoff average through 15 years, 12 playoff appearnces and in 109 playoff games: 23.5.



Reggie's playoff average over his last 3 seasons: 11.9PPG. His career playoff average: 20.6PPG.

[fpliii]

I don't think I can vote for Sam Jones just yet. I didn't get to see him play live, but based on Russell's characterization of Jones in his books:

[StateOfMind12]

Vote - Kevin Durant.

His dominant peak and accomplishments surpassed the likes of Ray, Reggie, etc. in my opinion.

[dyna]

Tracy McGrady

[KG215]

I don't think that matters yet though. If Duran't career ended today he'd be more comparable to McGardy, Mourning and Webber I'd say.

A bit off-topic, and I've sorta asked you this before, but say Durant plays at a similar level (2012) for the next 5-7 years. He makes 3-5 more All-NBA 1st Teams, wins an MVP, makes another Finals or two or three, wins several more scoring titles BUT never wins a championship. How high would that place him on your list?

[Boston C's]

Vote - Kevin Durant.

His dominant peak and accomplishments surpassed the likes of Ray, Reggie, etc. in my opinion.

I get what your saying but I feel putting durant this high now is just wrong...hes still getting his career going and putting him above guys like sam jones archibald etc seems wrong since those guys accomplished so much in their careers...it would be like disrespect

like i said I get your point but in about a few yrs We'll def be talking about durant in the top 50 most likely

my vote for now however goes to sam jones

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not that I'm voting for him, but I'm still amazed at the fact that Jerry (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lucasje01.html) Lucas (http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/bio.html?player=jerry_lucas) keeps getting absolutely no votes.

He is the only player not named Wilt or Pettit to have avg. 20ppg and 20rpg in a season. He did it twice. Pettit did it only once. While I don't particularly know that much about his reputation amongst his peers, his resume', on paper, is quite impressive. I do know that he was known as one of the best shooting forwards of the 60's.

1964 NBA Rookie of the Year
1964-65 NBA All-Star Game MVP
NBA champ (1973 Knicks)

7X All star
3X NBA All-NBA (1st)
2X NBA All-NBA (2nd)

Led league in fg% in 1964 (Edged out Wilt)
Was a top 4 rebounder for most of his career. (Normally right behind Wilt and Russell)
What about Neil Johnston?

NBA Champion ('56)
6x All-Star
4x All-NBA First team
1x All-NBA Second team

3x NBA scoring champ
1x NBA rebounding champ
3x NBA field goal percentage leader

Was the scoring and rebounding champ in 1954-55.

[L.Kizzle]

Blaze, your hate for Reggie Miller is the same as Glove's love for Payton/Kevin Johnson.

No one is debating Miller to be a better player than Ray Allen, McGrady, or whoever else is being discussed.

What Miller did was will those teams to victory. No, it wasn't Rik Smits, the Davis Boys, Vern Flemming, Travis Best or your boy Derrick McKey.

Pacers made 4 Eastern Conference Finals that decade, one less then the Knicks.

[L.Kizzle]

What about Neil Johnston?

NBA Champion ('56)
6x All-Star
4x All-NBA First team
1x All-NBA Second team

3x NBA scoring champ
1x NBA rebounding champ
3x NBA field goal percentage leader

Was the scoring and rebounding champ in 1954-55.
The only thing about Neil is he was one of the players pre-shot clock who didn't translate well when the blacks started to come into the league.

[StateOfMind12]

I do kind of wonder who actually deserves to be ranked higher between Ray and Tmac. I don't think either are in the top 50, both outside of it, but it's still a tough decision.

I've been hard on Tmac ever since he became a Rocket because I hated the way he played there. However, I did love the way Tmac played in Orlando, he was a completely different player really.

I think the same way as HardwoodLegend said in the past, Tmac's spirit/passion for the game was pretty much crushed after the 2003 playoffs and during the 2004 season. The Magic never gave him the help he desperately needed and he was always the one-man show and had to play like superman night in and night out just to get his team into the playoffs.

All that really does to someone is destroy one's spirit/passion. I can relate because recently I feel like I've been in Orlando Tmac's shoes and my spirit is going to be destroyed soon.

I use to criticize Tmac because Kobe, KG, Pierce, Lebron, etc. could continue performing well and motivated despite playing in garbage teams for all those years. I thought that if those guys could do it then McGrady should as well and that McGrady is just mentally weak because he can't. However, I have come to the conclusion that it is not that Tmac is necessarily mentally weak but rather those guys I just listed are mentally strong and they were better than Tmac so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I think Tmac should be above Wilkins for the record. Nique shouldn't be in the top 50.

[L.Kizzle]

I do kind of wonder who actually deserves to be ranked higher between Ray and Tmac. I don't think either are in the top 50, both outside of it, but it's still a tough decision.

I've been hard on Tmac ever since he became a Rocket because I hated the way he played there. However, I did love the way Tmac played in Orlando, he was a completely different player really.

I think the same way as HardwoodLegend said in the past, Tmac's spirit/passion for the game was pretty much crushed after the 2003 playoffs and during the 2004 season. The Magic never gave him the help he desperately needed and he was always the one-man show and had to play like superman night in and night out just to get his team into the playoffs.

All that really does to someone is destroy one's spirit/passion. I can relate because recently I feel like I've been in Orlando Tmac's shoes and my spirit is going to be destroyed soon.

I use to criticize Tmac because Kobe, KG, Pierce, Lebron, etc. could continue performing well and motivated despite playing in garbage teams for all those years. I thought that if those guys could do it then McGrady should as well and that McGrady is just mentally weak because he can't. However, I have come to the conclusion that it is not that Tmac is necessarily mentally weak but rather those guys I just listed are mentally strong and they were better than Tmac so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I think Tmac should be above Wilkins for the record. Nique shouldn't be in the top 50.
:lebronamazed:

[Deuce Bigalow]

The only thing about Neil is he was one of the players pre-shot clock who didn't translate well when the blacks started to come into the league.
1-2 black players were allowed per team in the 50s. Neil played his entire career in the 50s.

[StateOfMind12]

Votes

Sam Jones - 5
Kevin Durant - 4
Robert Parish - 2
Pau Gasol - 1
Tracy McGrady - 1
Artis Gilmore - 1
Reggie Miller - 1
Vince Carter - 1
Nate 'Tiny' Archibald - 1


Not sure if pauk voted, he just said Reggie > Ray, not necessarily a vote though.

[colts19]

Reggie Miller

[Freedom Kid7]

Hal "Great teammate, great guard, outstanding longevity" Greer

[Kblaze8855]

Blaze, your hate for Reggie Miller is the same as Glove's love for Payton/Kevin Johnson.

Except not even doing so much as voting...ever...not latching onto any particular player likely to win and propping them up for the purpose of beating out Reggie.....and me being honest about how good he is and not acting like a guy who wasnt elite was better than MVPs who led multiple title teams. I was hoping Reggie would win 2 votes ago just so id stop reading annoying comments. I want Reggie ranked according to what he was considered when he played. He wants payton ranked where he is in his head...and for what he was considered to be disregarded.

Those things aside...similar.



No one is debating Miller to be a better player than Ray Allen, McGrady, or whoever else is being discussed.

You either cant read.....are not reading...or assume some people are kidding.



What Miller did was will those teams to victory.

Losing 19 years in a row is not victory. Victory is victory.

They are different things.


No, it wasn't Rik Smits, the Davis Boys, Vern Flemming, Travis Best or your boy Derrick McKey.

It was nobody. It didnt happen.


Pacers made 4 Eastern Conference Finals that decade, one less then the Knicks.

So they fell 2 series wins short of being winners more than all but one of the other teams that didnt actually win....

Again...just the standards being lowered.

Players who are special get laughed at for losing in the conference finals. Hell they get clowned for losing in the finals with teams that shouldnt be there. Perhaps they shouldnt be...but they are.

Reggie is a special case. Not actually being great lowers the standards enough that what he did do.....is made out to be more impressive.

If hes good enough hes a career loser(Malone...Barkley...Ewing)...since he isnt that good....hes a winner because hes on a different scale.

Who knew there was an upside to being worse in all time great rankings?

That silver lining around never being elite or anything even close to approaching it. You get the same credit for success without being called a loser when you lose 19 years in a row.

Good deal.

[Legends66NBA7]

Alonzo Mourning, Chris Paul, Jerry Lucas, Ed Macauley, Chris Webber, etc... also deserve some mention in the upcoming polls.

[L.Kizzle]

1-2 black players were allowed per team in the 50s. Neil played his entire career in the 50s.
I should say elite black players. When he came in guyt like Earl Lloyd, Nat clifton and Ray felix were in the league. When he was leavin Elgin Baylor, Maurice Stoke and Bill Russell were around. I read a story of him not being able to get his go-to hook shot off against Bill Russell.

[Fudge]

I do kind of wonder who actually deserves to be ranked higher between Ray and Tmac. I don't think either are in the top 50, both outside of it, but it's still a tough decision.

I've been hard on Tmac ever since he became a Rocket because I hated the way he played there. However, I did love the way Tmac played in Orlando, he was a completely different player really.

I think the same way as HardwoodLegend said in the past, Tmac's spirit/passion for the game was pretty much crushed after the 2003 playoffs and during the 2004 season. The Magic never gave him the help he desperately needed and he was always the one-man show and had to play like superman night in and night out just to get his team into the playoffs.

All that really does to someone is destroy one's spirit/passion. I can relate because recently I feel like I've been in Orlando Tmac's shoes and my spirit is going to be destroyed soon.

I use to criticize Tmac because Kobe, KG, Pierce, Lebron, etc. could continue performing well and motivated despite playing in garbage teams for all those years. I thought that if those guys could do it then McGrady should as well and that McGrady is just mentally weak because he can't. However, I have come to the conclusion that it is not that Tmac is necessarily mentally weak but rather those guys I just listed are mentally strong and they were better than Tmac so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I think Tmac should be above Wilkins for the record. Nique shouldn't be in the top 50.
Let it out son, let it all out...

[L.Kizzle]

Except not even doing so much as voting...ever...not latching onto any particular player likely to win and propping them up for the purpose of beating out Reggie.....and me being honest about how good he is and not acting like a guy who wasnt elite was better than MVPs who led multiple title teams. I was hoping Reggie would win 2 votes ago just so id stop reading annoying comments. I want Reggie ranked according to what he was considered when he played. He wants payton ranked where he is in his head...and for what he was considered to be disregarded.

Those things aside...similar.




You either cant read.....are not reading...or assume some people are kidding.




Losing 19 years in a row is not victory. Victory is victory.

They are different things.



It was nobody. It didnt happen.



So they fell 2 series wins short of being winners more than all but one of the other teams that didnt actually win....

Again...just the standards being lowered.

Players who are special get laughed at for losing in the conference finals. Hell they get clowned for losing in the finals with teams that shouldnt be there. Perhaps they shouldnt be...but they are.

Reggie is a special case. Not actually being great lowers the standards enough that what he did do.....is made out to be more impressive.

If hes good enough hes a career loser(Malone...Barkley...Ewing)...since he isnt that good....hes a winner because hes on a different scale.

Who knew there was an upside to being worse in all time great rankings?

That silver lining around never being elite or anything even close to approaching it. You get the same credit for success without being called a loser when you lose 19 years in a row.

Good deal.
It's not like I'm ranking Reggie close to a Malone or even a Ewing. I don't even have him in my top 60, he's right outside the 60 for me.

And he should get extra cool points for being the best player on a team that includes the Davis Boys and Rik Smits and bringing them to Conference Finals (and one NBA Finals.)

[TheBigVeto]

Reggie Miller