Kobe Bryant: "Nobody has won more championships than me in my entire generation."

[Reverend Hoops]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/02/you-think-kobe-is-selfish-cant-mesh-with-nash-he-thinks-youre-dumb/

Such a cocky statement to make. Tim Duncan wouldn't say this if he was in his shoes. Where is the humility?

[ZeN]

Fact are so factual.

[Bandito]

Kobe's cocky ass mouth is hilarious. He doesn't know how to shut up. That's is one of the reason I've been a fan of him. That cocky attitude mixed with a I don't give a fu(k mentality :lol

[G.O.A.T]

Oops...

http://newspaper.li/static/bd1938c1f082a3c8c9ff00dd41da2f64.jpg

[EnoughSaid]

Oops...

http://newspaper.li/static/bd1938c1f082a3c8c9ff00dd41da2f64.jpg

:bowdown:

[Rekindled]

Oops...

http://newspaper.li/static/bd1938c1f082a3c8c9ff00dd41da2f64.jpg

not his generation, horry won 2 championships before kobe came into the league

[UltraThunderMan]

'I don't like having the ball.' He went full retard with that statement.

[kennethgriffin]

when michael jordan got co*ky at the end of his career after becoming a legend. nobody had a problem with it. jordan to this day is the biggest self promoter

kobe has been selfless in interviews his whole life. he's earned the right to tell the truth for once

[G.O.A.T]

not his generation, horry won 2 championships before kobe came into the league

Kobe won two after Horry retired.

They were drafted four years apart, same generation, unless Shaq and Duncan aren't in the same generation or Hakeem and Robinson etc.

[daily]

'I don't like having the ball.' He went full retard with that statement.Actually you went full retard for quoting him out of context

[kennethgriffin]

not his generation, horry won 2 championships before kobe came into the league


lol why are you trying to explain this to 10 year olds? they think kobe is 43 years old. know why? because skip bayless tells them this every chance he gets

:roll:

[jlip]

This is not really news worthy. It's pretty accurate unless you count Horry.

[UltraThunderMan]

Actually you went full retard for quoting him out of context

I didn't quote him out of context. He very clearly stated that he doesn't like having the ball. This is obviously false as he has done all he could his whole career to get the ball in his hands.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/02/you-think-kobe-is-selfish-cant-mesh-with-nash-he-thinks-youre-dumb/

Such a cocky statement to make. Tim Duncan wouldn't say this if he was in his shoes. Where is the humility?

Nobody questions Tim Duncan's ability to lead/win/blend in. :confusedshrug: Kobe has clearly had more team success than Tim with different groups of players and haters still cling to fantasies instead of acknowledging reality. How can people seriously question Kobe on these things when he is the standard? Why is the leadership style of somebody who has won less obviously superior?

[daily]

I didn't quote him out of context. He very clearly stated that he doesn't like having the ball. This is obviously false as he has done all he could his whole career to get the ball in his hands.
:facepalm

He's talking about being the facilitator of the offense. He's a shooting guard he doesn't want to be the guy who initiates the offense like a point guard

Context context context

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe won two after Horry retired.

They were drafted four years apart, same generation, unless Shaq and Duncan aren't in the same generation or Hakeem and Robinson etc.

generations are either decades or primes


kobe and horry both shared different ones

horry is a shaq type ( prime 90's and start of 00's )

kobe is a ( entirely prime 00's and played a bit in the 90's )


different generations

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe won two after Horry retired.

They were drafted four years apart, same generation, unless Shaq and Duncan aren't in the same generation or Hakeem and Robinson etc.

Horry was drafted at 22. Kobe at 18. :facepalm

[pegasus]

Are some of you upset because he didn't lie or something?

[dunksby]

Yet still can't satisfy his own wife.

[UltraThunderMan]

:facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

Kobe has clearly had more team success than Tim with different groups of players and haters still cling to fantasies instead of acknowledging reality.

Duncan won titles with three different core's around him and he was the best player on those teams. Kobe it did with one group of players. What do you mean?



How can people seriously question Kobe on these things when he is the standard? Why is the leadership style of somebody who has won less obviously superior?

Duncan won more as an alpha and never had as bad of a season as Kobe did in 2005 during his prime. Duncan also was never half the reason his team lost a Finals to a lesser opponent or why a dynasty was broken up prematurely.

When is comes to leadership, winning and all-time rankings, Duncan has an edge on Kobe.

[rmt]

There's Horry and Fisher - well, Fisher hasn't won MORE than 5 championships (only equalled Kobe's count) but Horry sure as hell has.

[RaininTwos]

Duncan won more as an alpha and never had as bad of a season as Kobe did in 2005 during his prime. Duncan also was never half the reason his team lost a Finals to a lesser opponent or why a dynasty was broken up prematurely.

When is comes to leadership, winning and all-time rankings, Duncan has an edge on Kobe.
Kobe had a knee injury that year.... how are you going to use that against him?

[G.O.A.T]

generations are either decades or primes


kobe and horry both shared different ones

horry is a shaq type ( prime 90's and start of 00's )

kobe is a ( entirely prime 00's and played a bit in the 90's )


different generations

I know it sucks because it doesn't fit your agenda, but here's what generation means:

1: All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively

2: The average period, generally considered to be about thirty years, during which children grow up and have children of their own.

Kobe and Horry are from the same generation.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Duncan won titles with three different core's around him and he was the best player on those teams. Kobe it did with one group of players. What do you mean?




Duncan won more as an alpha and never had as bad of a season as Kobe did in 2005 during his prime. Duncan also was never half the reason his team lost a Finals to a lesser opponent or why a dynasty was broken up prematurely.

When is comes to leadership, winning and all-time rankings, Duncan has an edge on Kobe.

The fact that Kobe won titles as a non alpha further signifies his ability to lead based on the makeup of the team. :confusedshrug: Maybe if Duncan had Kobe's leadership the Spurs wouldn't be forever underachieving in the postseason post Duncan losing his best player on the team status.

[kennethgriffin]

Duncan won titles with three different core's around him and he was the best player on those teams. Kobe it did with one group of players. What do you mean?




Duncan won more as an alpha and never had as bad of a season as Kobe did in 2005 during his prime. Duncan also was never half the reason his team lost a Finals to a lesser opponent or why a dynasty was broken up prematurely.

When is comes to leadership, winning and all-time rankings, Duncan has an edge on Kobe.



kobe was a co-alpha dog on a 2 man team with shaq


you do realise kobe averaged 25/5/5 combined for those 1st 3... and 29/7/6 in the 2001 run

thats as good a line as any mvp


its like kareem and magic... people give them full alpha lead dog credit. it didnt matter who won mvp on a team with more than 1 mega star dominating

nobody even cares that james worthy won finals mvp. it was kareem and magic who got all the credit



IMO .. kobes 7 finals is also allot more impressive than duncans 4 finals


and kobes repeated 3 times in 2001, 2002 and 2010


duncans never done it


player of the decade awards all went to kobe for a reason

dozens of threads end the same way on ish with kobe ahead of duncan

the official vote on ISH even had kobe ahead of duncan


give it a rest bro.

[daily]

“Here’s the thing: Some people are just very, very dumb. I keep hearing it from some people that I just want to score and that other stuff. Nobody has won more championships than me in my entire generation. I’ve got five of them. You can’t be selfish and win one championship, let alone five. That argument should be in the coffin by now. I don’t like having the ball.”

Please tell me how i quoted him out of context. It says he does not like having the ball when he ran shaq out of los angeles to get more looks and has since then bad mouthed teammates for not deferring to him and just has to make it known that it is 'his team' all the time. How does he 'not like having the ball.' CONTEXT! You can post the quote a 1000 times and it won't matter unless you view it within the context of the interview. You refuse to post the question because it makes your anti Kobe agenda clear for all to see. The fact you actually have to make up the part about Shaq is hilarious, Kobe doesn't mention him at all but you add that little extra to spice up your post


here's part of the interview concerning Steve Nash


FROM KOBE BRYANT:

Steve Nash called you before he signed with the Lakers. When you hung up, did you feel like he’d be joining you?:

“I felt like I made the strongest argument that I could possibly make. The rivalries, we talked about that from the beginning. What I said was, ‘Yeah, we’ve had great rivalries, but in those rivalries, we’ve gained so much mutual respect for each other.’ But beyond the rivalries, we came in this league together, same draft. We were kind of the guys that were not really known of in that draft, and look at what we’ve accomplished. So, we kind of have this bond going back to ’96 and we kind of want to carry it on.”

What makes him so good?:

“I think he sees the floor better than most. I don’t know where it comes from. … He sees the game from a facilitating standpoint, the way I see it from a scoring standpoint. I don’t know if it comes from his soccer-playing days, but he just sees so many options out there on the floor, and it’s just so natural for him. It’s going to be fun playing with him.”

On those who say it won’t work because he’ll (Kobe) have the ball less and he just loves to score:

“Here’s the thing: Some people are just very, very dumb. I keep hearing it from some people that I just want to score and that other stuff. Nobody has won more championships than me in my entire generation. I’ve got five of them. You can’t be selfish and win one championship, let alone five. That argument should be in the coffin by now. I don’t like having the ball.”

http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/10/02/nba-preseason-los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-dwight-howard/

[G.O.A.T]

Kobe had a knee injury that year.... how are you going to use that against him?

He played nearly 70 games. He was no more injured than Duncan in 2004 for example when Tim had issues with his knee, ankle and thigh and eventually developed planter fasc. That's how. It was a bad year from a great player.

[KG215]

The fact that Kobe won titles as a non alpha further signifies his ability to lead based on the makeup of the team. :confusedshrug:
How so if he wasn't the one leading those teams to a ring?



Maybe if Duncan had Kobe's leadership the Spurs wouldn't be forever underachieving in the postseason post Duncan losing his best player on the team status.
You mean when Duncan was older and past his prime?

[G.O.A.T]

The fact that Kobe won titles as a non alpha further signifies his ability to lead based on the makeup of the team.

No it doesn't show anything about his ability to lead as he was not the leader or best player on those teams. He shows how supremely talented he is and that at one point of his career he could keep his ego in check for the sake of winning, but that's it.



Maybe if Duncan had Kobe's leadership the Spurs wouldn't be forever underachieving in the postseason post Duncan losing his best player on the team status.

You mean like how the Lakers got swept by Dallas and humiliated by the Thunder the last two years?

Duncan's lack of mobility and gas left in the tank, not any sort of lack of leadership is why the Spurs aren't winning titles anymore.

[caliman]

[QUOTE=UltraThunderMan]

[KG215]

kobe was a co-alpha dog on a 2 man team with shaq

No, he wasn't, especially in 2000.


its like kareem and magic... people give them full alpha lead dog credit. it didnt matter who won mvp on a team with more than 1 mega star dominating
No, it's not. There's far much less debate over who was the "alpha lead dog" on the 2000-2002 Lakers 3-peat teams than some of the Lakers 80s championship teams.


nobody even cares that james worthy won finals mvp. it was kareem and magic who got all the credit
Right, but James Worthy wasn't already considered the best player or close to best player on his team when he won Finals MVP. Shaq, on the other hand, was. Apples to oranges.



player of the decade awards all went to kobe for a reason

dozens of threads end the same way on ish with kobe ahead of duncan

the official vote on ISH even had kobe ahead of duncan
In fan polls, right?

And weren't you the same person who spent an entire day whining and complaining and calling the ISH vote stupid because they didn't rank Kobe as high as you thought he should be? But it's credible in this case because it fits your agenda?

[zizozain]

wow G.O.A.T

seven posts in this thread? i thought you avoid to part of such threads :confusedshrug:


who do you hate more Kareem or Kobe? SMFH

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How so if he wasn't the one leading those teams to a ring?



You mean when Duncan was older and past his prime?

Because he had to successfully adjust his playing style for the betterment of the team.

Kobe is older and past his prime too. :confusedshrug:

[KOBE143]

And still counting.. Kobe has a big chance to retire with 8 rings.. Nothing is impossible with our Lord Mamba.. Have faith.. :bowdown:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No it doesn't show anything about his ability to lead as he was not the leader or best player on those teams. He shows how supremely talented he is and that at one point of his career he could keep his ego in check for the sake of winning, but that's it.

The criticism isn't based on collecting brownie points for legacy debates. That's another topic. The criticism is based on Kobe not being able to adjust his playing style for the betterment of the team based on its makeup. The fact that he has already done so successfully 3 times already is what makes the criticism comical. Who has successfully done it better than Kobe in recent memory? If you have doubts about Kobe adjusting successfully then you must have doubts about every other single player in the league.



You mean like how the Lakers got swept by Dallas and humiliated by the Thunder the last two years?

Duncan's lack of mobility and gas left in the tank, not any sort of lack of leadership is why the Spurs aren't winning titles anymore.

Losing to the eventual champions sure beats getting beat in the first round as a 1 seed. :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Because he had to successfully adjust his playing style for the betterment of the team
How does that speak to his leadership ability in comparison to anyone? Up until that point in his career he had always and clearly been the second best player on his team. He had never been in a true leadership role. I mean, you can't be serious, right? Kobe adjusting his playing style for the betterment of the team at 21-23 years old on a team where he had always been the second best player, speaks to how great of a leader he was?

Not saying Kobe wasn't a great leader later on in his career, but surely you can find a few hundred better examples than that.


Kobe is older and past his prime too. :confusedshrug:
Duncan won his last title at 31 years old, same as Kobe. Since, the Spurs have made the WCF two times, the second round once, and lost in the first round twice. And I believe in 2009 Manu was hurt and didn't play. That's more of the reason for the Spurs "lack of playoff success" since 2007, not because of Duncan's leadership ability. On top of Duncan aging and clearly losing a few steps, his best teammates ahve gotten older, too, and can't stay healthy.

Kobe, since winning his last title at 31, has been swept and lost in five games in the second round. Clearly those teams had gone about as far as they could, so it's not really Kobe's fault or anything, but it's not like he's enjoyed a lot more playoff success than Duncan since getting older and past his prime.

[G.O.A.T]

Losing to the eventual champions sure beats getting beat in the first round as a 1 seed. :confusedshrug:

Is six games still more than five and is the conference finals still later in the playoffs than the semifinals? Because that's what happened last year.

Pretending that Kobe is something he isn't or did something he didn't doesn't help his legacy, it just makes you like you're delusional.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/02/you-think-kobe-is-selfish-cant-mesh-with-nash-he-thinks-youre-dumb/

Such a cocky statement to make. Tim Duncan wouldn't say this if he was in his shoes. Where is the humility?

go cry me a river

[NUPE_1911]

It is more like:

No player has had as much help as Kobe since Kobe has entered the NBA.

Of course, Kobe and his legion of male groupies don't like to talk about this.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How does that speak to his leadership ability in comparison to anyone? Up until that point in his career he had always and clearly been the second best player on his team. He had never been in a true leadership role. I mean, you can't be serious, right? Kobe adjusting his playing style for the betterment of the team at 21-23 years old on a team where he had always been the second best player, speaks to how great of a leader he was?

Once again you are confusing a legacy debate with what the question being asked. Can Kobe adjust successfully? Can Kobe allow Nash to thrive? The question isn't who was the best leader as the best player on team, the question is who has had greater team success playing various roles based on the makeup of the team. Who has done it better than Kobe?



Duncan won his last title at 31 years old, same as Kobe. Since, the Spurs have made the WCF two times, the second round once, and lost in the first round twice. And I believe in 2009 Manu was hurt and didn't play. That's more of the reason for the Spurs "lack of playoff success" since 2007, not because of Duncan's leadership ability. On top of Duncan aging and clearly losing a few steps, his best teammates ahve gotten older, too, and can't stay healthy.

Kobe, since winning his last title at 31, has been swept and lost in five games in the second round. Clearly those teams had gone about as far as they could, so it's not really Kobe's fault or anything, but it's not like he's enjoyed a lot more playoff success than Duncan since getting older and past his prime.

That's the point. Kobe has led at worst just as well as Duncan yet nobody will question Duncan on his ability to adjust his playing style for the betterment of the team going forward. Its a ridiculous concept. The man was a major part of 4 championship teams. Kobe is just reminding you all that he was also except he did it one better.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It is more like:

No player has had as much help as Kobe since Kobe has entered the NBA.

Of course, Kobe and his legion of male groupies don't like to talk about this.

Think he will finally have two all star teammates this year?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Is six games still more than five and is the conference finals still later in the playoffs than the semifinals? Because that's what happened last year.

Pretending that Kobe is something he isn't or did something he didn't doesn't help his legacy, it just makes you like you're delusional.

I wasn't referencing last year. By eventual champions I was referring to the 2011 Mavs. In 2011 the #1 seeded Spurs lost to the #8 seeded Grizzlies. You can read about it here if you need to refresh your memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NBA_Playoffs#.281.29_San_Antonio_Spurs_vs._.2 88.29_Memphis_Grizzlies

[ripthekik]

:roll:
wow a lot of haters in here..

people want to bring up robert horry? :facepalm :facepalm

[Whoah10115]

To be fair, Kobe was probably the best player in the NBA by 2000/01. But Shaq had earned his place and had established himself as the team #1 with one of the great seasons of all-time. They won the title. Shaq is a big man, older, and clearly the league was lacking in big men at that time.


That 2000/01 season showed that Kobe was probably already the better player (and I mean that absolutely) but he wasn't the first option. The team ran thru him more, but Shaq was the clear-cut go-to guy, as a scorer and more. Kobe only averaged .2 PPG less than Shaq, and his shooting % was obviously lower so he clearly used the ball more. But it was still Shaq's team and that was fair.


Kobe was an even better player by the next year, and Shaq had already started going down. However, both had lesser regular seasons the next year. But Kobe's was an even bigger drop, even with his overall ascension as a player.



This whole alpha dog thing has gotten really stupid. But Kobe, himself, is a big reason why. Shutup already.

[NUPE_1911]

Think he will finally have two all star teammates this year?


He had Bynum and Gasol last year. According to Laker's fans last year, Bynum was the best center in the NBA.

Do I really need to list the litany of HOF'ers that Kobe has played with?!?! Kobe is the most propped up superstar in the history of the NBA. You'd think he'd realize this and show some humility but nope....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He had Bynum and Gasol last year. According to Laker's fans last year, Bynum was the best center in the NBA.

Do I really need to list the litany of HOF'ers that Kobe has played with?!?! Kobe is the most propped up superstar in the history of the NBA. You'd think he'd realize this and show some humility but nope....

Gasol wasn't an all star last year. :confusedshrug:

You can list HOFers if you want but that won't tell you much. I can tell you the HOFers he had as teammates on his amazingly stacked teams that won titles. Shaq and Gasol. That's it. 1 HOF teammate per title team. Unprecedented in history.

[longtime lurker]

Shots fired at all of insidehoops. Kobe stays sonning the haters.

[G.O.A.T]

Kobe fans are really creepy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe fans are really creepy.

That's because they live vicariously through him.

[rmt]

Nobody questions Tim Duncan's ability to lead/win/blend in. :confusedshrug: Kobe has clearly had more team success than Tim with different groups of players and haters still cling to fantasies instead of acknowledging reality. How can people seriously question Kobe on these things when he is the standard? Why is the leadership style of somebody who has won less obviously superior?

Kobe's 5 championship teams have had 31 different players. Duncan's 4 championship teams have had 32 different players. No player on his 99 team was on the 05 or 07 teams. Kobe has had Fisher on all 5 of his teams.

Kobe fans go on so about the 5 rings when Shaq was the main reason for 3 of them. They conveniently forget about the better team mates, better owner, better city to attract free agents, better coach, more salary (yikes, Holt would die with $91+ million in salary), etc that it took to win those 5 rings.

Duncan has won 4 rings as the man - done more with less. He didn't get gifted with the Shaqs, Gasols, Dwight Howards (all in their primes) and Nashes. He won with a 34/38 year old DRob, 20 year old Parker and rookie Manu.



To be fair, Kobe was probably the best player in the NBA by 2000/01. But Shaq had earned his place and had established himself as the team #1 with one of the great seasons of all-time. They won the title. Shaq is a big man, older, and clearly the league was lacking in big men at that time.

That 2000/01 season showed that Kobe was probably already the better player (and I mean that absolutely) but he wasn't the first option. The team ran thru him more, but Shaq was the clear-cut go-to guy, as a scorer and more. Kobe only averaged .2 PPG less than Shaq, and his shooting % was obviously lower so he clearly used the ball more. But it was still Shaq's team and that was fair.

Kobe was an even better player by the next year, and Shaq had already started going down. However, both had lesser regular seasons the next year. But Kobe's was an even bigger drop, even with his overall ascension as a player.

This whole alpha dog thing has gotten really stupid. But Kobe, himself, is a big reason why. Shutup already.

So in a year that they won the championship, in the middle of the 3-peat, but the MVP votes in 00-01 went like this:

1. Iverson
2. Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Webber
5. Garnett
6. McGrady
7. Malone
8. Kidd
9. Kobe

Only in delusional Kobe stans' minds was he the best player in 00-01.

[zizozain]

Kobe fans are really creepy.

generalizing :confusedshrug:

true colors showing lol


well ... Kareem is the GOAT and kobe is a top 5 all-time

deal with it creepy hater





-

[dunksby]

generalizing :confusedshrug:

true colors showing lol


well ... Kareem is the GOAT and kobe is a top 5 all-time

deal with it creepy hater





-
I always wondered why he hated Kareem so much but a pattern is now emerging, poor dude has been hating all his life and now at 60+ years old he can't help his nature. Like a 60 year old pauk/NumberSix/etc

[red1]

generalizing :confusedshrug:

true colors showing lol


well ... Kareem is the GOAT and kobe is a top 5 all-time

deal with it creepy hater





-
terrible post

[KG215]

Once again you are confusing a legacy debate with what the question being asked. Can Kobe adjust successfully? Can Kobe allow Nash to thrive? The question isn't who was the best leader as the best player on team, the question is who has had greater team success playing various roles based on the makeup of the team. Who has done it better than Kobe?
No, I'm not. You're saying Kobe showed he was a better leader by changing his style of play for the betterment of the team in the first 3-peat. How so? At that point in his career he didn't know any better. Through the 3-peat, although Kobe significantly closed the gap by 2002, he had always been the second best player on his team. Up until that point in his career he had never "led" a team. Nothing about how he played through the 3-peat showed how versatile and willing to change as a leader.

Yes, Kobe's roles from 2000-2002 and 2008-2010 were different, but that doesn't mean he "changed his colors" so to speak as a leader. He wasn't the leader or best player from 2000-2002.





That's the point. Kobe has led at worst just as well as Duncan yet nobody will question Duncan on his ability to adjust his playing style for the betterment of the team going forward. Its a ridiculous concept. The man was a major part of 4 championship teams. Kobe is just reminding you all that he was also except he did it one better.
No, he did it one less to be honest. Duncan was the "lead dog", "alpha male", best player, etc. on four championship teams. I know Parker was the 2007 Finals MVP but Duncan played better in the entire playoffs and was still the team's best player. Kobe was only the clear-cut best player/lead-dog on two championship teams.

And, like rmt pointed out, Duncan played with more different players on his four championship teams than Kobe did on his five championship teams. So this notion that Kobe was more willing to change and was better at adjusting to different supporting casts than Duncan is a wash, at best.


Oh, and as for legacies, I have no problem with someone ranking Kobe ahead of Duncan. I personally would put Duncan at #8 and Kobe at #9, but if someone wants to put Kobe higher, I can live with that and see where they're coming from. However, if I was forced to pick one of those players to build around, I'd pick Duncan.

[tmacattack33]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/02/you-think-kobe-is-selfish-cant-mesh-with-nash-he-thinks-youre-dumb/

Such a cocky statement to make. Tim Duncan wouldn't say this if he was in his shoes. Where is the humility?


Didn't read the rest of this thread, but I'm guessing it went like this:

Kobe fans: Man, his competitiveness is amazing. He has swag.

Normal people: He's cocky.

[KG215]

I always wondered why he hated Kareem so much but a pattern is now emerging, poor dude has been hating all his life and now at 60+ years old he can't help his nature. Like a 60 year old pauk/NumberSix/etc

G.O.A.T. isn't even close to being the same kind of poster as pauk, number six, etc. He's one of the most knowledgeable and most objective posters on this site. After reading his posts for three years now, I have no idea who his favorite player(s) and team is.

[ashlar]

Kobe slobbers living through Kobe. Kobe haters living through Kobe slobbers. Its like a gay congo line.

[dunksby]

G.O.A.T. isn't even close to being the same kind of poster as pauk, number six, etc. He's one of the most knowledgeable and most objective posters on this site. After reading his posts for three years now, I have no idea who his favorite player(s) and team is.
Being a hater does not mean you can't be knowledgeable but please he is as objective as a conspiracy nutjob on a White House public tour.

[MiamiThrice]

http://fansofmediocrity.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/robert-horry.jpg

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No, I'm not. You're saying Kobe showed he was a better leader by changing his style of play for the betterment of the team in the first 3-peat. How so? At that point in his career he didn't know any better. Through the 3-peat, although Kobe significantly closed the gap by 2002, he had always been the second best player on his team. Up until that point in his career he had never "led" a team. Nothing about how he played through the 3-peat showed how versatile and willing to change as a leader.

Yes, Kobe's roles from 2000-2002 and 2008-2010 were different, but that doesn't mean he "changed his colors" so to speak as a leader. He wasn't the leader or best player from 2000-2002.

No, he did it one less to be honest. Duncan was the "lead dog", "alpha male", best player, etc. on four championship teams. I know Parker was the 2007 Finals MVP but Duncan played better in the entire playoffs and was still the team's best player. Kobe was only the clear-cut best player/lead-dog on two championship teams.

And, like rmt pointed out, Duncan played with more different players on his four championship teams than Kobe did on his five championship teams. So this notion that Kobe was more willing to change and was better at adjusting to different supporting casts than Duncan is a wash, at best.


Oh, and as for legacies, I have no problem with someone ranking Kobe ahead of Duncan. I personally would put Duncan at #8 and Kobe at #9, but if someone wants to put Kobe higher, I can live with that and see where they're coming from. However, if I was forced to pick one of those players to build around, I'd pick Duncan.

:facepalm

What relevance does best player on the team status have on the following conversation? It's completely irrelevant to the topic.

On those who say it won

[Money 23]

jordan to this day is the biggest self promoter
LOL no he isn't ... his legend spoke for itself as his promotion. Even before his 1st retirement he was a living legend. Guy got a statue after only 8 years in the league.

Kobe's the one who always has to pump himself up in interviews, as if he's almost insecure about his status among the game's great.

He was always this way ... in an interview with SLAM in 2003, when T-Mac was starting to get more hype than him, he felt the need to interject he could average 30 ppg if he wanted to

Which he could, but it wasn't the point. Shameless and self indulgent self promotion.

Constantly articulating that six rings puts him at Jordan's level. As if we're supposed to ignore the fact he wasn't the best player on his team for the first three championships, and if he were to win this season, he would have done it on the most STACKED roster in the league.

[Deuce Bigalow]

LOL no he isn't ... his legend spoke for itself as his promotion. Even before his 1st retirement he was a living legend. Guy got a statue after only 8 years in the league.

Kobe's the one who always has to pump himself up in interviews, as if he's almost insecure about his status among the game's great.

He was always this way ... in an interview with SLAM in 2003, when T-Mac was starting to get more hype than him, he felt the need to interject he could average 30 ppg if he wanted to

Which he could, but it wasn't the point. Shameless and self indulgent self promotion.

Constantly articulating that six rings puts him at Jordan's level. As if we're supposed to ignore the fact he wasn't the best player on his team for the first three championships, and if he were to win this season, he would have done it on the most STACKED roster in the league.
Because Jordan never won with the most stacked team in the league. I hear that some of his bulls teams were the best in NBA history, let alone the league for that year.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL no he isn't ... his legend spoke for itself as his promotion. Even before his 1st retirement he was a living legend. Guy got a statue after only 8 years in the league.

Kobe's the one who always has to pump himself up in interviews, as if he's almost insecure about his status among the game's great.

He was always this way ... in an interview with SLAM in 2003, when T-Mac was starting to get more hype than him, he felt the need to interject he could average 30 ppg if he wanted to

Which he could, but it wasn't the point. Shameless and self indulgent self promotion.

Constantly articulating that six rings puts him at Jordan's level. As if we're supposed to ignore the fact he wasn't the best player on his team for the first three championships, and if he were to win this season, he would have done it on the most STACKED roster in the league.

Since Kobe is constantly articulating that 6 rings would put him on Jordan's level surely you could find a single link backing up that statement right?

:confusedshrug:

[MiamiThrice]

Kobe has never once won a playoff series in his career as an underdog. Not one. He has only won when he has the more stacked team which is a testament to the Lakers front office more so than Kobe.

[daily]

Kobe has never once won a playoff series in his career as an underdog. Not one. He has only won when he has the more stacked team which is a testament to the Lakers front office more so than Kobe.
^Oh look who found the Billy Mays button, that's cute

[KG215]

Being a hater does not mean you can't be knowledgeable but please he is as objective as a conspiracy nutjob on a White House public tour.

How so? How is he being a hater and how isn't he being objective in this thread?

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE]

[Money 23]

Because Jordan never won with the most stacked team in the league. I hear that some of his bulls teams were the best in NBA history, let alone the league for that year.
No, his roster never was as stacked as 2004, 2010, and 2013 Lakers.

His Bulls teams are some of the best in history because of their performance, not the content of their rosters.


Since Kobe is constantly articulating that 6 rings would put him on Jordan's level surely you could find a single link backing up that statement right?
Maybe not articulated on the surface, but he has been expressing how bad he wants that 6th ring for 3 years now.

Given Kobe's nature and the way he clearly has tried to fit himself into the Jordan mold.

It's more than insinuated that it's probably a MAJOR motivating factor for him to get that 6th ring to be in the same sentence as MJ.

Is there a bit of assumption there? Sure, but it's based profoundly in the context of Kobe for his entire career chasing Jordan.

[PJR]

InsecureBe

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Maybe not articulated on the surface, but he has been expressing how bad he wants that 6th ring for 3 years now.

Given Kobe's nature and the way he clearly has tried to fit himself into the Jordan mold.

It's more than insinuated that it's probably a MAJOR motivating factor for him to get that 6th ring to be in the same sentence as MJ.

Is there a bit of assumption there? Sure, but it's based profoundly in the context of Kobe for his entire career chasing Jordan.

That is a lot of words to say no. He never actually said such a thing.

The mythology about Kobe from the Jordanites is almost as funny as their mythology about Jordan. I'm sorry Kobe doesn't match Jordan's christ like levels of humbleness. :oldlol:

[DJ Leon Smith]

That is a lot of words to say no. He never actually said such a thing.

The mythology about Kobe from the Jordanites is almost as funny as their mythology about Jordan. I'm sorry Kobe doesn't match Jordan's christ like levels of humbleness. :oldlol:

No one is saying Jordan is humble, but then again he didn't lose NBA Finals games at home after being up 24 points at half-time and lose deciding NBA Finals games by 39 points. He also never missed the playoffs in his prime, or raped your sister in Colorado.

[BlackVVaves]

Is there really 5 pages on this? Really?

Kobe's a cocky person...WHOA. What a revelation :eek: I've never net a cocky person before. I've never heard of a egotistic artist of his craft...not Michaelangelo, not Socrates, not Hugo, not Tom Ford, not Mel Gibson, not Jordan, not Kanye West....no, I've never, ever heard of arrogance in sports, entertainment, or the arts.

Cotdamn, you people need to get a day job or new hobby. It's one thing to dissect his game to the very fine thread, but to criticize his personality as if all of you walk with the most humble, righteous way of thought. As if extreme humility is a common theme in professional sports. As if you didn't know Kobe is confident in the career he created for himself.

Grow up.

[Vertical-24]

The truth is the truth. He lied about nothing :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No one is saying Jordan is humble, but then again he didn't lose NBA Finals games at home after being up 24 points at half-time and lose deciding NBA Finals games by 39 points. He also never missed the playoffs in his prime, or raped your sister in Colorado.

He did look pretty fly sitting the bench for the Birmingham Barons too.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

Who needs Jordan to hype up himself when his legions of cockroaches craft the mythology so well on their own.

[BlackVVaves]

How so? How is he being a hater and how isn't he being objective in this thread?

You didn't hear? If you don't share the common perspective on a player on this board, you're a objective hater :oldlol:

I think some people are just going out there way to again criticize Kobe, like some immature teenage girls. I also think that the stans, in their usual cult-like fashion, are trying to desperately rationalize this facet of Kobe, saying he's the "better leader" for his abrasive attitude.

Dumbasses. Kobe is just overly confident, somewhat dictator-esque leader. There's no reason to try and use that in a "Kobe is better leader than Duncan argument." Duncan lead his team to 4 rings as the quiet leader. It was equally as effective as Kobe's ways, even more so when considering Shaq was the leader of the 2000-2002 championship Lakers teams.

[KG215]

Kobe has never once won a playoff series in his career as an underdog. Not one. He has only won when he has the more stacked team which is a testament to the Lakers front office more so than Kobe.
You're worse than the Kobe Stan's in thus thread with this one post. Congratulations.

[Round Mound]

Nobody Has Had As Good Supporting Cast as Bryant in His Prime and Their Primes in his Generation :confusedshrug:

[Money 23]

You're worse than the Kobe Stan's in thus thread with this one post. Congratulations.
He kind of has a point, though.

When has Kobe as alpha dog, with an underdog taken his team past another squad that was expected to beat them?

[KG215]

He did look pretty fly sitting the bench for the Birmingham Barons too.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

Who needs Jordan to hype up himself when his legions of cockroaches craft the mythology so well on their own.

It's not different than what kennethgriffin, you, and other Kobe "mythologists" (as you like to say) have started to do. One of your go-to lines is "Kobe never won a championship with more than one All-Star teammate" while, of course, ignoring the fact that he was always on one of the 1-3 best teams in the league with one of the 1-3 best supporting casts in the league during his championship seasons.



:facepalm
What relevance does best player on the team status have on the following conversation? It's completely irrelevant to the topic.
Why doesn't it have any relevance? Because Kobe wasn't the best player on the Lakers 3-peat teams? Nine times out of ten the best player on a championship team is the team leader.


How does Tim Duncan winning 4 titles as the best player on each team prove superior selflessness compared to Kobe winning 5 as the alpha and beta?
It doesn't, but that's not how you're using it in this argument. You keep saying Kobe proved his "selflessness" by changing his playing style from 2000-2002. Kobe didn't change squat. Prior to 2001 and 2002, Kobe was never that caliber of player. He wasn't ever an All-NBA caliber, lead-dog, best player, etc. prior to the 3-peat. His game just improved and he got better. He didn't all of a sudden decide to change how he was playing to help the team's chances of winning championships. The Lakers won those championships because of Kobe's improvement.


If anything Kobe winning 3 titles as the 2nd best player bodes well for the possibility for Kobe to win more as the 2nd best player with prime Dwight Howard in town. :confusedshrug:
How? This is a completely different situation than when Kobe 3-peated with Shaq. This would be similar to Kobe leaving a team to join Shaq and the Lakers in 2005 (assuming Shaq was still there of course). Kobe won his first three championships as the second best player because he was clearly the second best player on the team, had never been the best player on an NBA team at that point, and had yet to be the leader of a championship caliber team.

This time Kobe is in the twilight of his career and is going to have to make the decision on whether or not he will defer more if he loses a step and Dwight returns to 2011 form. I'm not saying Kobe won't be the leader of the team (he will) but Kobe hasn't been in this situation before.

And for the record, I have no problem with Kobe's ego. All the best athletes had giant egos. Jordan was as cocky as any athlete and and asshole. But it's their egos that make them so great. They always believe they're better than anyone they face, and that, coupled with their compulsive competitiveness, is part of the reason they won so much. Obviously things like superior individual and team talent played a big role, too.

[KG215]

You didn't hear? If you don't share the common perspective on a player on this board, you're a objective hater :oldlol:


I forgot about that. ISH where if you don't agree with someone else's opinion on a player, you're a hater. There's no in-between. You can't just be an objective sensible fan. Nope, you're a hater.

[BlackVVaves]

He kind of has a point, though.

When has Kobe as alpha dog, with an underdog taken his team past another squad that was expected to beat them?

Why does that matter? Are you people so desperate for material to discredit Kobe that you're now relying on "But he never won as an underdog...he must not be that good!"

Wow. Just.....wow.

[MiamiThrice]

He kind of has a point, though.

When has Kobe as alpha dog, with an underdog taken his team past another squad that was expected to beat them?

The answer is never.

You won't find another top 10-15 all-time player that has failed to win a single playof series as the underdog. We're not talking championships, we're talking just one playoff series.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's not different than what kennethgriffin, you, and other Kobe "mythologists" (as you like to say) have started to do. One of your go-to lines is "Kobe never won a championship with more than one All-Star teammate" while, of course, ignoring the fact that he was always on one of the 1-3 best teams in the league with one of the 1-3 best supporting casts in the league during his championship seasons.

Who has won multiple championships without one of the best 1-3 supporting casts in the league? By virtue of simply winning the title its very hard for any supporting cast not to be considered in the top 3 at worst. I don't point it out because it applies to all the legends of the game yet the stacked mantra never seems to get thrown their way. :confusedshrug:

[MiamiThrice]

Who has won multiple championships without one of the best 1-3 supporting casts in the league? By virtue of simply winning the title its very hard for any supporting cast not to be considered in the top 3 at worst. I don't point it out because it applies to all the legends of the game yet the stacked mantra never seems to get thrown their way. :confusedshrug:

For recent memory we will go with Dirk Nowitzki who accomplished this feat in 2011.

Beat Kobe who had a better cast
Beat Durant who had a better cast
Beat LeBron who had a better cast

Not even counting the other teams with better casts than Dallas, just who he beat. Only had to go back one year. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The answer is never.

You won't find another top 10-15 all-time player that has failed to win a single playof series as the underdog. We're not talking championships, we're talking just one playoff series.

How many times did Mike Tyson win a boxing match as a underdog?

How about Muhammed Ali?

When you are dominant player like Kobe and bring home a title 40-50% of the time you are paired with a single all star teammate you are not going to be the underdog in very many playoff series.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

For recent memory we will go with Dirk Nowitkzki who accomplished this feat in 2011.

Beat Kobe who had a better cast
Beat Durant who had a better cast
Beat LeBron who had a better cast

Only had to go back one year. :oldlol:

Damn they gave Dirk two rings for that performance.

:biggums:

Do you know what the word multiple means?

[Sarcastic]

How many times did Mike Tyson win a boxing match as a underdog?

How about Muhammed Ali?

When you are dominant player like Kobe and bring home a title 40-50% of the time you are paired with a single all star teammate you are not going to be the underdog in very many playoff series.


George Foreman was the favorite over Muhammed Ali.

[zizozain]

G.O.A.T. isn't even close to being the same kind of poster as pauk, number six, etc. He's one of the most knowledgeable and most objective posters on this site. After reading his posts for three years now, I have no idea who his favorite player(s) and team is.
from the very first thread i read for G.O.A.T. i knew who his favorite player(s) and team is

favorite player: Bill Russell

favorite team: Boston Celtics

most hated team Lakers

most hated player: Kareem

2nd most hated player: Kobe



and he tries so hard to hide it

[MiamiThrice]

How many times did Mike Tyson win a boxing match as a underdog?

How about Muhammed Ali?

When you are dominant player like Kobe and bring home a title 40-50% of the time you are paired with a single all star teammate you are not going to be the underdog in very many playoff series.

George Foreman was favored against Ali in perhaps his most famous fight. Next time try using a sport you actually know something about

Kobe is the only top 15 player all-time to not have one single playoff series won as the underdog. The only one. Noone else. The only one.


Damn they gave Dirk two rings for that performance.

:biggums:

Do you know what the word multiple means?

Kobe hasn't won one series let alone title without the best supporting cast in the league.:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

George Foreman was the favorite over Muhammed Ali.

And if he wasn't..... does that change his legacy? :confusedshrug:

What about Tyson?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe hasn't won one series let alone title without the best supporting cast in the league.:oldlol:

Pretty sure Boston trotted out 4 all stars in 2011. :confusedshrug: With your grasp on the English language I have no idea what you think the word supporting cast means though.

[b1imtf]

Kobe hasn't won one series let alone title without the best supporting cast in the league.:oldlol:
I'm not a huge Kobe fan, but in 09 his team wasn't that good

[KG215]

Pretty sure Boston trotted out 4 all stars in 2011. :confusedshrug: With your grasp on the English language I have no idea what you think the word supporting cast means though.

While I don't like using the argument "Kobe never won a series as an underdog" to knock him as a player, in 2010 (which is what I think you meant) they had four All-Stars but Allen was an injury replacement and wasn't having an All-Star caliber season. All three of Garnett, Pierce, and Allen were past their primes too. The Lakers were the favorites in the Finals, and rightfully so. That was a surprise Boston Finals run no one really expected. Garnett still wasn't the same after his knee injury the year before and everyone just thought they were too old to really make another deep playoff run.

[KG215]

I'm not a huge Kobe fan, but in 09 his team wasn't that good

Again, I think Miami Thrice's "Kobe never won a playoff series as an underdog" is dumb, what team in the 2009 playoffs did the Lakers play and beat that were better than them? Historically speaking, that wasn't a strong championship team but, in context, it was one of the two best teams in the league. The only other team considered as big of or bigger favorites to win it all were the Cavs, and were they really that good? They had LeBron, Mo Williams and a bunch of players no one will remember in 10 years.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

While I don't like using the argument "Kobe never won a series as an underdog" to knock him as a player, in 2010 (which is what I think you meant) they had four All-Stars but Allen was an injury replacement and wasn't having an All-Star caliber season. All three of Garnett, Pierce, and Allen were past their primes too. The Lakers were the favorites in the Finals, and rightfully so. That was a surprise Boston Finals run no one really expected. Garnett still wasn't the same after his knee injury the year before and everyone just thought they were too old to really make another deep playoff run.

The Celtics 2-8 were better than the Lakers 2-8. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Again, I think Miami Thrice's "Kobe never won a playoff series as an underdog" is dumb, what team in the 2009 playoffs did the Lakers play and beat that were better than them? Historically speaking, that wasn't a strong championship team but, in context, it was one of the two best teams in the league. The only other team considered as big of or bigger favorites to win it all were the Cavs, and were they really that good? They had LeBron, Mo Williams and a bunch of players no one will remember in 10 years.

LeBron had a great defensive, three point shooting and rebounding team that is epitome of a great supporting cast that is comically underrated. Give any superstar in this league a great defensive team, a great rebounding team and a great 3 pt shooting team and they are going to be title contenders regardless of the names on the back of the jerseys.

[Bandito]

I'm not a huge Kobe fan, but in 09 his team wasn't that good
It's because in his Lebron homer eyes having a Bynum that played like 10 min a game in the playoffs a declining Gasol, Odom ( an awesome but underachiever player) coming from the bench and the mighty Fisher makes an all star team. Bynum wasn't even an all star or even close to being one at the time.

But no Lebron won the Finals all by himself without having any help whatsoever from the bench and a allstar cast in Wade and Bosh.

PS: I put Lebron comments in this thread because that troll Miamithrice is infuriating. I can't believe there is someone as dumb as pauk that will defend Lebron to that extent.

[krazymofo]

what about derek fisher?

[Ne 1]

what about derek fisher?
Kobe and Fisher have the same number of rings.

[BlackVVaves]

Again, I think Miami Thrice's "Kobe never won a playoff series as an underdog" is dumb, what team in the 2009 playoffs did the Lakers play and beat that were better than them? Historically speaking, that wasn't a strong championship team but, in context, it was one of the two best teams in the league. The only other team considered as big of or bigger favorites to win it all were the Cavs, and were they really that good? They had LeBron, Mo Williams and a bunch of players no one will remember in 10 years.

Though I agree, the idiot-kid MiamiThrice is, as usual, wrong about Kobe having the best supporting cast every year he won the title. The Lakers were the favorites because the tandem of Kobe and Gasol was truly remarkable - they were not the favorites because they had a deep team, and far from "the best supporting cast in the league."

In 2009, for instance, the Denver Nuggets had a far more balanced roster. But the Lakers were considered favorites due to the talent of their best two players, compared to the Nuggets best two players. And, rightfully so:

in that series, Gasol averaged 18 PPG, 12 RPG, and 4 APG on 63% shooting while Kobe averaged an incredible 34 PPG, 6 RPG, and 6 APG on 49% shooting.

Kobe never won a title as an underdog because every year he won a title outside of 2000, he was one of the 5 best players in the league, one of the 3 best players in the Playoffs, and played with a formidable partner in crime.

When you win 5 championships, spend the majority of you career as the best at your position, and are considered one of the 10 greatest players of All Time, "not winning as an underdog" is not a portrayal of incompetence; it's a testament of consistent greatness.

[BlackVVaves]

It's because in his Lebron homer eyes having a Bynum that played like 10 min a game in the playoffs a declining Gasol, Odom ( an awesome but underachiever player) coming from the bench and the mighty Fisher makes an all star team. Bynum wasn't even an all star or even close to being one at the time.

But no Lebron won the Finals all by himself without having any help whatsoever from the bench and a allstar cast in Wade and Bosh.

PS: I put Lebron comments in this thread because that troll Miamithrice is infuriating. I can't believe there is someone as dumb as pauk that will defend Lebron to that extent.

How the hell was Gasol "declining"? :oldlol:

[crisoner]

Oops...

http://newspaper.li/static/bd1938c1f082a3c8c9ff00dd41da2f64.jpg


LOL

Big Shot Rob!!!

[G-train]

No man in modern civilisation has been so successful and so good, yet so pathetic.

[Anaximandro1]

since Kobe entered the league:

Titles as the best player

Duncan 4
Shaq 3
Jordan 2
Kobe 2
MVP

LeBron 3
Duncan 2
Malone 2
Nash 2
Jordan 1
Shaq 1
Iverson 1
KG 1
Dirk 1
Rose 1
Kobe 1


FMVP

Duncan 3
Shaq 3
Jordan 2
Kobe 2




GM Survey: If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?


2002
1. Shaquille O'Neal,L.A. Lakers
2. Tim Duncan,San Antonio

2003
1. Tim Duncan,San Antonio
2. Shaquille O'Neal,L.A. Lakers

2004
1 Tim Duncan, San Antonio 47.6%
2 Kevin Garnett, Minnesota 28.6%
3 LeBron James, Cleveland 14.3%
4 Shaquille O'Neal, Miami 9.5

2005
1. Tim Duncan, San Antonio 40.0%
2. LeBron James, Cleveland 36.0%
3. Shaquille O'Neal, Miami 8.0%
4. Amare Stoudemire, Phoenix 8.0%

2006
1 LeBron James, Cleveland 71.4%
2 Dwyane Wade, Miami 10.7%

2007
1. LeBron James, Cleveland 59.3%
2. Dwight Howard, Orlando 25.9%
3. Tim Duncan, San Antonio 11.1%
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 11.1%
5. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas 3.7%

2008
1. LeBron James -- 66.7%
2. Kobe Bryant -- 18.5%
3. Dwight Howard -- 11.1%
4. Chris Paul - 3.7%

2009
1. LeBron James, Cleveland 78.6%
2. Dwight Howard, Orlando 14.3%
3. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 7.1%

2010
1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City 55.6%
2. LeBron James, Miami 25.9%
3. Dwight Howard, Magic 7.4%
Kobe Bryant, Lakers 7.4%
5. Dwyane Wade, Miami 3.7%

2011
T1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City 37.0%
T1. LeBron James, Miami 37.0%
3. Derrick Rose, Chicago 14.8%
4. Dwight Howard, Orlando -- 7.4%
5. Dwyane Wade, Miami -- 3.7%

[KG215]

LeBron had a great defensive, three point shooting and rebounding team that is epitome of a great supporting cast that is comically underrated. Give any superstar in this league a great defensive team, a great rebounding team and a great 3 pt shooting team and they are going to be title contenders regardless of the names on the back of the jerseys.
Ok, that's one team and they weren't even overwhelming favorites. I think most people thought the Lakers were just as good or better, especially in 2009. Not to mention the Lakers didn't have to play Cleveland in the '09 or '10 playoffs.

What team did the Lakers play in '09 and '10 playoffs that were better than them? What other contenders in '09 and '10 had better players and more talent than the Lakers who had the best or second best player in the league and another top 10-12 player in the league, giving them the best 1-2 punch.

[TheBigVeto]

And nobody in his generation ever got as much support from David Stern as he's been getting. Getting championships gift-wrapped, bailed out of jail, etc.

No big deal here folks. Let's move on.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ok, that's one team and they weren't even overwhelming favorites. I think most people thought the Lakers were just as good or better, especially in 2009. Not to mention the Lakers didn't have to play Cleveland in the '09 or '10.

What team did the Lakers play in '09 and '10 playoffs that were better than them? What other contenders in '09 and '10 had better players and more talent than the Lakers who had the best or second best player in the league and another top 10-12 player in the league, giving them the best 1-2 punch.

Are we talking about the Lakers? or are we talking about Kobe's teammates? Kobe did not have better teammates than whomever you believe the Celtics best player was during that era. It's really as simple as that.

[crisoner]

He is right with his statement....
What's the bog problem?

[Big#50]

When you play in LA you have to get rings. We get all the great bigs.

[KG215]

Though I agree, the idiot-kid MiamiThrice is, as usual, wrong about Kobe having the best supporting cast every year he won the title. The Lakers were the favorites because the tandem of Kobe and Gasol was truly remarkable - they were not the favorites because they had a deep team, and far from "the best supporting cast in the league."

In 2009, for instance, the Denver Nuggets had a far more balanced roster. But the Lakers were considered favorites due to the talent of their best two players, compared to the Nuggets best two players. And, rightfully so:

in that series, Gasol averaged 18 PPG, 12 RPG, and 4 APG on 63% shooting while Kobe averaged an incredible 34 PPG, 6 RPG, and 6 APG on 49% shooting.

Kobe never won a title as an underdog because every year he won a title outside of 2000, he was one of the 5 best players in the league, one of the 3 best players in the Playoffs, and played with a formidable partner in crime.

When you win 5 championships, spend the majority of you career as the best at your position, and are considered one of the 10 greatest players of All Time, "not winning as an underdog" is not a portrayal of incompetence; it's a testament of consistent greatness.


That's a much more articulate way of saying what I wanted to say. The combo of their 1-2 of Kobe and Gasol offset any deficincies they had in their 3-9 players against the other contenders; because the 1-2 of those teams wasn't nearly as strong as the Lakers who, after Odom and Bynum (on a good day), were pretty mediocre or even bad compared to other contenders.

[SHAQisGOAT]

True, can't deny that.

But rings don't make you a better player, winning them leading the team helps to the case a lot, and Shaq did it in his first rings.

[NumberSix]

Derek Fisher has 5 too.

[Bandito]

Derek Fisher has 5 too.
Well in his defense he did say more than he does. Fisher is tied with him:lol

[zizozain]

He is right with his statement....
What's the bog problem?
haters don't wanna heart it.

they have broken hearts since June 17 2010 -- 11:00 p.m. ET

[LakersFan626]

Oops...

http://newspaper.li/static/bd1938c1f082a3c8c9ff00dd41da2f64.jpg

Kobe 5, Duncan 4.

[Heavincent]

Just stating facts. Don't see what the problem is :confusedshrug:

[Heavincent]

Again, I think Miami Thrice's "Kobe never won a playoff series as an underdog" is dumb, what team in the 2009 playoffs did the Lakers play and beat that were better than them? Historically speaking, that wasn't a strong championship team but, in context, it was one of the two best teams in the league. The only other team considered as big of or bigger favorites to win it all were the Cavs, and were they really that good? They had LeBron, Mo Williams and a bunch of players no one will remember in 10 years.

Once again, the Lakers were always the favorites/best team in 09 and 10 mostly because of Kobe. Kobe was always the best player on either team in every series. For example, they beat the Nuggets in the 09 WCF mostly because Kobe was clearly a better player than the Nuggets' best player (Carmelo). Same with just about every series. The 2010 WCF is another good example. Was Nash's supporting cast in 2010 vastly inferior to what Kobe had? No. But Kobe was the best player on either team by far.

Some people seem to think it all comes down to the supporting cast a superstar has, when it really doesn't. It helps when your superstar is better than every other superstar in the league.

[poido123]

No, his roster never was as stacked as 2004, 2010, and 2013 Lakers.

His Bulls teams are some of the best in history because of their performance, not the content of their rosters.


Maybe not articulated on the surface, but he has been expressing how bad he wants that 6th ring for 3 years now.

Given Kobe's nature and the way he clearly has tried to fit himself into the Jordan mold.

It's more than insinuated that it's probably a MAJOR motivating factor for him to get that 6th ring to be in the same sentence as MJ.

Is there a bit of assumption there? Sure, but it's based profoundly in the context of Kobe for his entire career chasing Jordan.

NOt sure why you have red reputation, you write very well and make a plausable argument each time Ive seen you write. Ill rep

[poido123]

Insecurebe at it again. Most of his fans in this thread are disgustingly insecure and feel the need to justify every statement and thing that Kobe does.

The lengths people go to, manufacturing an argument that twists what Kobe has really acheived. Kobe has performed one of the greatest status 'smokescreens' basketball has ever seen. His achievements and success are real, but the way he got there, and the status he's placed on is very false and very misleading.

[KG215]

Once again, the Lakers were always the favorites/best team in 09 and 10 mostly because of Kobe. Kobe was always the best player on either team in every series. For example, they beat the Nuggets in the 09 WCF mostly because Kobe was clearly a better player than the Nuggets' best player (Carmelo). Same with just about every series. The 2010 WCF is another good example. Was Nash's supporting cast in 2010 vastly inferior to what Kobe had? No. But Kobe was the best player on either team by far.

Some people seem to think it all comes down to the supporting cast a superstar has, when it really doesn't. It helps when your superstar is better than every other superstar in the league.

No, once again, they were the favorites in 2009 because Kobe AND Gasol >>>>> Carmelo and Billups. By a pretty sizable margin. Kobe was the best player in the series and arguably the best player in the NBA. Carmelo was a top 10ish player. Gasol was a top 10-12 player. Billups was a top 15-20 player. The gap between Carmelo and Gasol in 2009 was smaller than the gap between Gasol and Billups.

That's a sizable margin and more than makes-up whatever gap there was between the Lakers 3-10 players and the Nuggets 3-10 players. I'm not disagreeing with you, really. Kobe was the biggest reason they were favored in most series but he wasn't the only reason which is how your wording makes it seem like you feel. And Kobe wasn't clearly better than every other superstar in the league in '09 and '10. LeBron, at worst, was just as good. But his #2 was Mo Williams while Kobe's #2 was Gasol. There's a huge gap between those two. And was Odom, Bynum, Ariza/Artest, Fisher, and Brown really that much or any worse than Delone, Ilgauskas, Sczcerbiak, and Varejao?

YMF, this is for you...I'm not saying Kobe was the benefactor of some great supporting casts in '09 and '10. I'm simply trying to point out, relative to the rest of the league, he had the best second banana in the league and, that coupled with Odom, Bynum, Ariza/Artest, etc. was enough to make the Lakers legit title contenders each year. None of the other contenders had a team of 3-4 All-Stars (save a healthy Boston team which wasn't the case in 2009). They might have had better supporting casts 3-10 or whatever, but their 1st and 2nd best players weren't as good as the Lakers 1st and 2nd best players.

YMF, you like to call people "Jordan mythologists" for pointing out how great his stats were while 3-peating in the early 90s while refuting their argument with DRtg. Yet, one of your go-to arguments to prove Kobe's greatness is "he never won a ring with more than one All-Star teammate." You never bother to put that into context and make light of why that one All-Star teammate was enough for him to win in 2009 and 2010. You just say it as if it should prop him up when comparing those championship runs to championship runs of other top 10 players. Did those players have better teams when they won their championships? Yes, but that doesn't mean Kobe's championships in 2009 and 2010 were more difficult to win than Jordan's titles in '91-'93, or any of the Lakers titles in the 80s with Magic and Kareem, or Bird's titles in the 80s, etc. It doesn't mean it was easier either.

[KG215]

Are we talking about the Lakers? or are we talking about Kobe's teammates? Kobe did not have better teammates than whomever you believe the Celtics best player was during that era. It's really as simple as that.

Not real sure what you're asking. We're talking about the 2009 and 2010 NBA and the other contenders. And how is it as simple as that? Kobe was better than any of the Celtics players from 2008-2010 and Gasol wasn't far behind the 2nd or 3rd best of Garnett/Allen/Pierce in 2009 or 2010.

In 2009 the Celtics were pretty much eliminated from that discussion after Garnett's injury in February. No one honestly thought they could much better than the 2nd round with an aging Pierce and Allen and a young Rondo and no Garnett. Then you have, who? Orlando, Cleveland, Denver, and maybe San Antonio? None of those teams were considered better than the Lakers and the Lakers were bigger favorites than all of them other than Cleveland.

And I've never said the Celtics weren't better....when healthy. When they were healthy and Garnett/Pierce/Allen were closer to their primes, they were clearly better than the Lakers. But in 2009 they weren't healthy for the playoffs, thus they lost in the 2nd round. The Lakers didn't have to worry about them anymore. I don't know if a healthy Celtics team makes the Finals and beats the Lakers in 2009, but they were looking pretty damn good before Garnett got hurt.

In 2010 they just weren't the same team as they were in 2008. Garnett wasn't the same and an already old Pierce and Allen were two years older with more mileage on their legs. That run to the Finals was unexpected and I was pretty surprised once they damn near won the series, but that doesn't mean the 2010 version of the Celtics were better than the 2010 Lakers.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

YMF, this is for you...I'm not saying Kobe was the benefactor of some great supporting casts in '09 and '10. I'm simply trying to point out, relative to the rest of the league, he had the best second banana in the league and, that coupled with Odom, Bynum, Ariza/Artest, etc. was enough to make the Lakers legit title contenders each year. None of the other contenders had a team of 3-4 All-Stars (save a healthy Boston team which wasn't the case in 2009). They might have had better supporting casts 3-10 or whatever, but their 1st and 2nd best players weren't as good as the Lakers 1st and 2nd best players.

YMF, you like to call people "Jordan mythologists" for pointing out how great his stats were while 3-peating in the early 90s while refuting their argument with DRtg. Yet, one of your go-to arguments to prove Kobe's greatness is "he never won a ring with more than one All-Star teammate." You never bother to put that into context and make light of why that one All-Star teammate was enough for him to win in 2009 and 2010. You just say it as if it should prop him up when comparing those championship runs to championship runs of other top 10 players. Did those players have better teams when they won their championships? Yes, but that doesn't mean Kobe's championships in 2009 and 2010 were more difficult to win than Jordan's titles in '91-'93, or any of the Lakers titles in the 80s with Magic and Kareem, or Bird's titles in the 80s, etc. It doesn't mean it was easier either.

I'm just pointing out double standards.

I don't care if you think Kobe is a better leader than Duncan. But its close either way yet nobody questions Duncan on his ability to lead.

I don't care if you think Kobe's championship teams were more stacked than other legendary player's but at worst its even and yet nobody claims Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird's teams were STACKED and thus their playoff success is less impressive.

I can't wait for the annual defensive team selection voting next year where everybody pretends that defensive team awards were ever based on obscure advanced stats and not based on reputations. Somehow its only Kobe in basketball history who needs to have his accolades reduced to account for that bias though. :oldlol:

The things Kobe gets criticized for are literally unprecedented in NBA history. The sad thing is haters don't even realize how delusional they are. I can't remember the last time I have seen a reasonable criticism of the man that would be and has been applied to everybody before him.

[Mr Know It All]

It's actually sad how insecure Kobe has become especially with the further progress of Lebron developing into a TRUE all time great, the real challenger to Michael Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem that Kobe never was. Lebron in his prime has pumped out numerous 50-60+ win teams that had mediocre teammates (with playoff success, although never a title), something Kobe was never able to do without the best front court in the league and another top 10 all time player to compliment him. Lebron, finally equipped with the help that made moronic basketball analysts doubt him (it's a team sport, durr), is poised to make multiple Finals and probably win multiple titles (already has one).

Kobe is a fraud, a modern marvel of sports media propaganda in manufacturing a phony legacy that only came about by the way of spectacular teammates and coaching around him. His inefficiency, selfishness, and anti-team mentality is now coming to the fore front again, and he is so damned arrogant he can't even keep his mouth shut, only giving those claims more legitimacy with his ego driven rants.

Kobe knows that the times of ESPN and other networks falsely building him up is coming to an end, and soon real statistically and unbiased analysis will show him for the player he is. That is, a great but flawed scorer who was never a true transcending talent. Never a guy you could plop on a mediocre squad and could generate a contender. It's all crumbling down on him, and he can't take it.

Good night, sweet prince...

[poido123]

It's actually sad how insecure Kobe has become especially with the further progress of Lebron developing into a TRUE all time great, the real challenger to Michael Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem that Kobe never was. Lebron in his prime has pumped out numerous 50-60+ win teams that had mediocre teammates (with playoff success, although never a title), something Kobe was never able to do without the best front court in the league and another top 10 all time player to compliment him. Lebron, finally equipped with the help that made moronic basketball analysts doubt him (it's a team sport, durr), is poised to make multiple Finals and probably win multiple titles (already has one).

Kobe is a fraud, a modern marvel of sports media propaganda in manufacturing a phony legacy that only came about by the way of spectacular teammates and coaching around him. His inefficiency, selfishness, and anti-team mentality is now coming to the fore front again, and he is so damned arrogant he can't even keep his mouth shut, only giving those claims more legitimacy with his ego driven rants.

Kobe knows that the times of ESPN and other networks falsely building him up is coming to an end, and soon real statistically and unbiased analysis will show him for the player he is. That is, a great but flawed scorer who was never a true transcending talent. Never a guy you could plop on a mediocre squad and could generate a contender. It's all crumbling down on him, and he can't take it.

Good night, sweet prince...

This.

Couldn't put it better myself. Im sure you will get labelled a hater, but this is pretty spot on.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not real sure what you're asking. We're talking about the 2009 and 2010 NBA and the other contenders. And how is it as simple as that? Kobe was better than any of the Celtics players from 2008-2010 and Gasol wasn't far behind the 2nd or 3rd best of Garnett/Allen/Pierce in 2009 or 2010.

In 2009 the Celtics were pretty much eliminated from that discussion after Garnett's injury in February. No one honestly thought they could much better than the 2nd round with an aging Pierce and Allen and a young Rondo and no Garnett. Then you have, who? Orlando, Cleveland, Denver, and maybe San Antonio? None of those teams were considered better than the Lakers and the Lakers were bigger favorites than all of them other than Cleveland.

And I've never said the Celtics weren't better....when healthy. When they were healthy and Garnett/Pierce/Allen were closer to their primes, they were clearly better than the Lakers. But in 2009 they weren't healthy for the playoffs, thus they lost in the 2nd round. The Lakers didn't have to worry about them anymore. I don't know if a healthy Celtics team makes the Finals and beats the Lakers in 2009, but they were looking pretty damn good before Garnett got hurt.

In 2010 they just weren't the same team as they were in 2008. Garnett wasn't the same and an already old Pierce and Allen were two years older with more mileage on their legs. That run to the Finals was unexpected and I was pretty surprised once they damn near won the series, but that doesn't mean the 2010 version of the Celtics were better than the 2010 Lakers.

The conversation was about Kobe's teammates and you keep redirecting back to the entire team including Kobe. Kobe's supporting cast doesn't include Kobe. Pierce or Garnett's supporting cast was better than Kobe's supporting cast for those 3 years. I don't why you keep harping on age and injuries. Kobe's teammates were not spring chickens nor injury free either.

[poido123]

I'm just pointing out double standards.

I don't care if you think Kobe is a better leader than Duncan. But its close either way yet nobody questions Duncan on his ability to lead.

I don't care if you think Kobe's championship teams were more stacked than other legendary player's but at worst its even and yet nobody claims Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird's teams were STACKED and thus their playoff success is less impressive.

I can't wait for the annual defensive team selection voting next year where everybody pretends that defensive team awards were ever based on obscure advanced stats and not based on reputations. Somehow its only Kobe in basketball history who needs to have his accolades reduced to account for that bias though. :oldlol:


The things Kobe gets criticized for are literally unprecedented in NBA history. The sad thing is haters don't even realize how delusional they are. I can't remember the last time I have seen a reasonable criticism of the man that would be and has been applied to everybody before him.

Your agenda isn't hard to work out. Prop up Kobe, bash on Jordan

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's actually sad how insecure Kobe has become especially with the further progress of Lebron developing into a TRUE all time great, the real challenger to Michael Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem that Kobe never was. Lebron in his prime has pumped out numerous 50-60+ win teams that had mediocre teammates (with playoff success, although never a title), something Kobe was never able to do without the best front court in the league and another top 10 all time player to compliment him. Lebron, finally equipped with the help that made moronic basketball analysts doubt him (it's a team sport, durr), is poised to make multiple Finals and probably win multiple titles (already has one).

Kobe is a fraud, a modern marvel of sports media propaganda in manufacturing a phony legacy that only came about by the way of spectacular teammates and coaching around him. His inefficiency, selfishness, and anti-team mentality is now coming to the fore front again, and he is so damned arrogant he can't even keep his mouth shut, only giving those claims more legitimacy with his ego driven rants.

Kobe knows that the times of ESPN and other networks falsely building him up is coming to an end, and soon real statistically and unbiased analysis will show him for the player he is. That is, a great but flawed scorer who was never a true transcending talent. Never a guy you could plop on a mediocre squad and could generate a contender. It's all crumbling down on him, and he can't take it.

Good night, sweet prince...

Why did LeBron turn into a true all time great last year if it wasn't his best statistical and therefore unbiased year of play?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Your agenda isn't hard to work out. Prop up Kobe, bash on Jordan

I'm still waiting for you to add some content to the discussion besides being a cheerleader. Do you have any facts to bring to the table on whatever the reason you are here for?

[Heavincent]

It's actually sad how insecure Kobe has become especially with the further progress of Lebron developing into a TRUE all time great, the real challenger to Michael Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem that Kobe never was. Lebron in his prime has pumped out numerous 50-60+ win teams that had mediocre teammates (with playoff success, although never a title), something Kobe was never able to do without the best front court in the league and another top 10 all time player to compliment him. Lebron, finally equipped with the help that made moronic basketball analysts doubt him (it's a team sport, durr), is poised to make multiple Finals and probably win multiple titles (already has one).

Kobe is a fraud, a modern marvel of sports media propaganda in manufacturing a phony legacy that only came about by the way of spectacular teammates and coaching around him. His inefficiency, selfishness, and anti-team mentality is now coming to the fore front again, and he is so damned arrogant he can't even keep his mouth shut, only giving those claims more legitimacy with his ego driven rants.

Kobe knows that the times of ESPN and other networks falsely building him up is coming to an end, and soon real statistically and unbiased analysis will show him for the player he is. That is, a great but flawed scorer who was never a true transcending talent. Never a guy you could plop on a mediocre squad and could generate a contender. It's all crumbling down on him, and he can't take it.

Good night, sweet prince...

:roll:

Kobe making people mad as **** for over 10 years now.

[Mr Know It All]

Why did LeBron turn into a true all time great last year if it wasn't his best statistical and therefore unbiased year of play?

It was still easily one of his three most dominant statistical seasons, and his offensive game was more polished than it has ever been.

I never said last year in particular was the transcending year that formed him into that. It's the constant season by season statistical and individual domination that he has displayed over the years. Of course his playoff performance last year only aided his legacy but I am talking about his continuous individual production that has not noticeably wavered since about 2007 (the beginning of his ascent, though you could argue that 2011 was a slight hiccup).

[KG215]

I'm just pointing out double standards.

I don't care if you think Kobe is a better leader than Duncan. But its close either way yet nobody questions Duncan on his ability to lead.

I don't care if you think Kobe's championship teams were more stacked than other legendary player's but at worst its even and yet nobody claims Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird's teams were STACKED and thus their playoff success is less impressive.
I agree with this. I never said Kobe was a worse leader than Duncan. I just said the reasoning you were using to make your argument was flawed. I do think it can be considered a wash between he and Duncan. I won't say you or anyone else is wrong for thinking that or thinking Kobe is/was the better leader. I personally, though, would choose to build a team around Duncan before Kobe.

I also don't think his teams were more stacked relative to the league than other superstars. Nowhere did I say that. I just get tired of hearing the "Kobe never won a championsihp with more than one All-Star teammate" line from the Kobe fans on ISH without every considering the context. Nor do I think Kobe detractors/haters should use my side of the argument to say Kobe couldn't lead a team to a championship in different, tougher eras, because his teams in different eras would be constructed differently. I do think prime Kobe was good enough to lead a team to a championship in any era with the right supporting cast. In most of those he'd need someone better than Gasol and Odom, but he didn't need someone better than those two in '09 and '10 because the league didn't call for it.


I can't wait for the annual defensive team selection voting next year where everybody pretends that defensive team awards were ever based on obscure advanced stats and not based on reputations. Somehow its only Kobe in basketball history who needs to have his accolades reduced to account for that bias though.

The things Kobe gets criticized for are literally unprecedented in NBA history. The sad thing is haters don't even realize how delusional they are. I can't remember the last time I have seen a reasonable criticism of the man that would be and has been applied to everybody before him.

I think most of the criticisms you hear on Kobe come from ISH and that's in large part due to the age we live in. LeBron gets plenty of criticism, too. It may not be the same type of criticisms but he still has plenty of ISH "haters." If you're hearing the same criticisms repeated elsewhere then your annoyance with them is even more justified.

I honestly don't feel like I'm even criticizing Kobe here, or in most of these threads. It's the non-contextualized statements used to defend and/or prop Kobe up that annoy me. If you're making some of those because you feel the amount of criticism Kobe receives on here is unfair. I understand that, and I apologize for repeatedly coming at you.

You're not going to see me saying ignorant baseless bullshit like "Gasol carried Kobe", or "Kobe is the luckiest all-time great ever", or "Kobe never won a playoff series as an underdog" like the obvious trolls and Kobe haters. That nonsense is beyond stupid and detracts from any kind of semi-intelligent basketball discussion.

[poido123]

Why did LeBron turn into a true all time great last year if it wasn't his best statistical and therefore unbiased year of play?

A combination of hitting his prime, and having luck go their way as far as Bulls falling off and matching up well against the Thunder in the finals. Sure they had adversity facing the Celtics and Indiana, but Id hardly consider Heat having a tough playoff run by any means.

[Mr Know It All]

:roll:

Kobe making people mad as **** for over 10 years now.

What part of my post made me seem mad at all?:oldlol:

I'm just impartially analyzing the lengths of Kobe's egomania and why he's acting the way he is at this stage of his career (when he is clearly declining). People's perception of Kobe doesn't anger me whatsoever, just like it doesn't bother me when people say things like Eli Manning is the best player in the NFL because he played with a great defense and won another Super Bowl (with admittedly spectacular clutch play).

Sports are reactionary, and some people are so caught up in that bubble they just let themselves float along the currents rather than stepping back and looking at the statistics and a players respective situation (I think baseball is the only sport in America that has really gotten to the perfect point of truly analyzing players impartially, but it's such a stats driven sports, for casual and hardcore fans alike).

[G-Funk]

Basically this is what's going on....

Haters: He's a ballhog, selfish player.

Kobe: I have 5 rings bitch!

Haters: OMG! Duncan will never say such thing.
Haters: Horry has 7 Bro!
Haters: He's just lucky!
Haters: He's sooooo insecure!
Haters: George Foreman was the favorite over Muhammed Ali.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

He's right. Since 1996, who's won more rings than Kobe? But that's not even the point. He was responding to people who say he's selfish and he cares more about his own numbers and shooting the ball than winning. Selfish players who lead teams don't win. Look at some of the most successful superstars in NBA history. Look at most people's top 10 lists. They are full of players who were either always unselfish, or didn't start winning until they became unselfish.

[poido123]

I'm just pointing out double standards.

I don't care if you think Kobe is a better leader than Duncan. But its close either way yet nobody questions Duncan on his ability to lead.

I don't care if you think Kobe's championship teams were more stacked than other legendary player's but at worst its even and yet nobody claims Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird's teams were STACKED and thus their playoff success is less impressive.

I can't wait for the annual defensive team selection voting next year where everybody pretends that defensive team awards were ever based on obscure advanced stats and not based on reputations. Somehow its only Kobe in basketball history who needs to have his accolades reduced to account for that bias though. :oldlol:

The things Kobe gets criticized for are literally unprecedented in NBA history. The sad thing is haters don't even realize how delusional they are. I can't remember the last time I have seen a reasonable criticism of the man that would be and has been applied to everybody before him.

Insecurebe at it again. Most of his fans in this thread are disgustingly insecure and feel the need to justify every statement and thing that Kobe does.

The lengths people go to, manufacturing an argument that twists what Kobe has really acheived. Kobe has performed one of the greatest status 'smokescreens' basketball has ever seen. His achievements and success are real, but the way he got there, and the status he's placed on is very false and very misleading.

You wanted content, and you weren't sure what I bring to the table well there it is if you had of payed attention.

[KG215]

The conversation was about Kobe's teammates and you keep redirecting back to the entire team including Kobe. Kobe's supporting cast doesn't include Kobe. Pierce or Garnett's supporting cast was better than Kobe's supporting cast for those 3 years. I don't why you keep harping on age and injuries. Kobe's teammates were not spring chickens nor injury free either.

Ok, and I said a HEALTHY Celtics team was better than the Lakers those years. They weren't healthy in 2009 and I think their age (as a whole) closed the gap considerably by 2010 to draw the two teams almost dead even.

But that's never been my point. I started off by asking what teams Kobe had to play in the 2009 and 2010 Finals that were considered better than the Lakers? Take away Kobe and the best player from every team they played and compare the rest of the rosters, and the Lakers still have the best player between the two teams in Gasol other than maybe the Celtics in 2010. And even then you could probably argue Gasol was the 3rd or 4th best player in the Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It was still easily one of his three most dominant statistical seasons, and his offensive game was more polished than it has ever been.

I never said last year in particular was the transcending year that formed him into that. It's the constant season by season statistical and individual domination that he has displayed over the years. Of course his playoff performance last year only aided his legacy but I am talking about his continuous individual production that has not noticeably wavered since about 2007 (the beginning of his ascent, though you could argue that 2011 was a slight hiccup).

What happened in 2011? Did Lebron suddenly become a worse player when teamed up with two all stars? What does that say about the value of unbiased statistics when its unlikely that Lebron with the Heat no matter how many titles he wins will likely not match his apparent greatness (based on unbiased stats) with the Cavaliers?

[RaininTwos]

He's right. Since 1996, who's won more rings than Kobe? But that's not even the point. He was responding to people who say he's selfish and he cares more about his own numbers and shooting the ball than winning. Selfish players who lead teams don't win. Look at some of the most successful superstars in NBA history. Look at most people's top 10 lists. They are full of players who were either always unselfish, or didn't start winning until they became unselfish.

Since 1996 /=/ his generation. That is just his draft class. Your generation can include people that came before you.

[Heavincent]

What part of my post made me seem mad at all?:oldlol:

I'm just impartially analyzing the lengths of Kobe's egomania and why he's acting the way he is at this stage of his career (when he is clearly declining). People's perception of Kobe doesn't anger me whatsoever, just like it doesn't bother me when people say things like Eli Manning is the best player in the NFL because he played with a great defense and won another Super Bowl (with admittedly spectacular clutch play).

Sports are reactionary, and some people are so caught up in that bubble they just let themselves float along the currents rather than stepping back and looking at the statistics and a players respective situation (I think baseball is the only sport in America that has really gotten to the perfect point of truly analyzing players impartially, but it's such a stats driven sports, for casual and hardcore fans alike).

The entire post was typical blind Kobe hatred. And no, it's not constructive or objective criticism. Not that I have a problem with it. Hate all you want.

And did you seriously compare Kobe Bryant, one of the most dominant players of all time, to Eli freaking Manning? :roll: It's not even close to the same thing.

[G-Funk]

No man in modern civilisation has been so successful and so good, yet so pathetic.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Insecurebe at it again. Most of his fans in this thread are disgustingly insecure and feel the need to justify every statement and thing that Kobe does.

The lengths people go to, manufacturing an argument that twists what Kobe has really acheived. Kobe has performed one of the greatest status 'smokescreens' basketball has ever seen. His achievements and success are real, but the way he got there, and the status he's placed on is very false and very misleading.

You wanted content, and you weren't sure what I bring to the table well there it is if you had of payed attention.

Describe with specifics how Kobe's success was aided unlike any other legendary player.

:confusedshrug:

[poido123]

I'm still waiting for you to add some content to the discussion besides being a cheerleader. Do you have any facts to bring to the table on whatever the reason you are here for?

Still waiting for your response? it wouldnt matter how you responded to my post, the truth is that most people on ISH speak out of denial so Im not shocked if you respond with another statement defending Kobe, it gets boring.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Since 1996 /=/ his generation. That is just his draft class. Your generation can include people that came before you.

I know that but I'm speaking in the context of Kobe specifically. In what other ways do you define a generation in the NBA? Unless we just pick an arbitrary year to contradict Kobe's statement...

[Mr Know It All]

What happened in 2011? Did Lebron suddenly become a worse player when teamed up with two all stars? What does that say about the value of unbiased statistics when its unlikely that Lebron with the Heat no matter how many titles he wins will likely not match his apparent greatness (based on unbiased stats) with the Cavaliers?

He played on a team with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, so his statistics took a slight dip but he still led the league in PER, win shares, and win shares per 48. The Heat won 11 more games, and made it to the NBA Finals (a first round exit the year before). The year after he stats ballooned again and the Heat had more success.

I never said he would match his greatness. Dirk Nowitzki was a better player in 2006 than he was in 2011, yet he won a championship with a better built team around him. Only because of popular perception do they overvalue championships, and suddenly say "Oh well now Dirk is a top 20 player" even though he had the statistics to show that he was already in that category.

It's not about "matching" his greatness or his peak play with the Cavs, it's about continuing his statistical and individual dominance in this league for years to come. Team success is nice and will impress casual fans, but when judging an individual player I'm really only primarily interested in what they produce on the court.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The entire post was typical blind Kobe hatred. And no, it's not constructive or objective criticism. Not that I have a problem with it. Hate all you want.

And did you seriously compare Kobe Bryant, one of the most dominant players of all time, to Eli freaking Manning? :roll: It's not even close to the same thing.

High on demagogue, low on specifics and facts.

:bowdown:

[G-Funk]

How many rings would Lebron have if he did not chase rings in Miami????














http://home.ubalt.edu/ntsbarsh/zero/ZERO.GIF

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He played on a team with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, so his statistics took a slight dip but he still led the league in PER, win shares, and win shares per 48. The Heat won 11 more games, and made it to the NBA Finals (a first round exit the year before). The year after he stats ballooned again and the Heat had more success.

I never said he would match his greatness. Dirk Nowitzki was a better player in 2006 than he was in 2011, yet he won a championship with a better built team around him. Only because of popular perception do they overvalue championships, and suddenly say "Oh well now Dirk is a top 20 player" even though he had the statistics to show that he was already in that category.

It's not about "matching" his greatness or his peak play with the Cavs, it's about continuing his statistical and individual dominance in this league for years to come. Team success is nice and will impress casual fans, but when judging an individual player I'm really only primarily interested in what they produce on the court.

Big Kevin Love fan?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Still waiting for your response? it wouldnt matter how you responded to my post, the truth is that most people on ISH speak out of denial so Im not shocked if you respond with another statement defending Kobe, it gets boring.

Describe with specifics how Kobe's success was aided unlike any other legendary player.

[Mr Know It All]

The entire post was typical blind Kobe hatred. And no, it's not constructive or objective criticism. Not that I have a problem with it. Hate all you want.

And did you seriously compare Kobe Bryant, one of the most dominant players of all time, to Eli freaking Manning? :roll: It's not even close to the same thing.

I never compared their individual legacies with respect to how they are ranked, I was talking about their inflated legacies based on TEAM success in a TEAM sport. Eli Manning was argued to be better than Peyton Manning by some pundits (who is considered by many to be one of the greatest, if not THE greatest quarterback of all time) and silly fans who were quick to jump the gun after it became an argument that degenerated to "Eli has 2, Manning has 1".

[Mr Know It All]

Big Kevin Love fan?

That's why I clearly referenced win shares as well. I don't believe PER is the be all end all way to judge players, that's why I included the impact that Lebron had on team success as well.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I never compared their individual legacies with respect to how they are ranked, I was talking about their inflated legacies based on TEAM success in a TEAM sport. Eli Manning was argued to be better than Peyton Manning by some pundits (who is considered by many to be one of the greatest, if not THE greatest quarterback of all time) and silly fans who were quick to jump the gun after it became an argument that degenerated to "Eli has 2, Manning has 1".

You do realize that Kobe's resume matches up with nearly everybody even when you throw out everybody's rings right?

He is likely to retire 1 or 2 in all nba awards, all star team awards, and all defensive team awards .

[Heavincent]

That's why I clearly referenced win shares as well. I don't believe PER is the be all end all way to judge players, that's why I included the impact that Lebron had on team success as well.

Didn't Kobe lead the 01 Lakers in win shares?

Oh, let me guess, win shares only matter to you when they fit your agenda.

Not that win shares mean anything to me. I'm just saying.

[Mr Know It All]

You do realize that Kobe's resume matches up with nearly everybody even when you throw out everybody's rings right?

He is likely to retire 1 or 2 in all nba awards, all star team awards, and all defensive team awards .

All awards voted by the media. Is Steve Nash a top 10 player of all time because of his MVP awards? I'm talking about empirical evidence, not opinion based rankings.

[Heavincent]

All awards voted by the media. Is Steve Nash a top 10 player of all time because of his MVP awards? I'm talking about empirical evidence, not opinion based rankings.

So I guess Lebron's MVP's don't mean anything. You know, because it's a media award.

[Mr Know It All]

Didn't Kobe lead the 01 Lakers in win shares?

Oh, let me guess, win shares only matter to you when they fit your agenda.

Not that win shares mean anything to me. I'm just saying.

You're acting as if I think Kobe is a bad player, or even "just a good player". He's a great player, top 20-25 all time absolutely. He has had dominant and very impressive statistical seasons, there is no argument about this (although they are not as dominant as his supporters would like to push forward). But his fans and the media's insistence on him being ranked in the top 10 or top 5 is something that is flat out not backed up by his numbers or individual production.

And as for me being mad about his success in your original post quoting me, here's some wonderful neg gems I've received for posting my polite opinion on Kobe just in the past hour:

"Negged you ****ing ****"

"STFU"

And yet I am the one who is angry? Sounds like some of the people on here are as insecure as Kobe is right now.:oldlol:

[poido123]

Describe with specifics how Kobe's success was aided unlike any other legendary player.

:confusedshrug:

-His only MVP was a gifted one, one that I think was more a longevity award , moreso than the year he had which is what the award is judged on(Chris Paul or Lebron had better credentials that year).
-The finals MVP he was handed, when Gasol was clearly the best player in the series
His overrated defense that has landed him all defensive team selections
-Riding shaq to 3 championships as the second fiddle.
-Most of his career he has had good to great players and teams around him that hidden his tendency to ball hog and chuck.
-His last two titles was during a period of a weak western conference. Only Boston could be considered a team to be good or great or real competition for the title at that time.
-ESPN and media has carried a fake image that Kobe is a great, based on how his game has similarity to the last money spinner named Jordan.

There's just a few, and Im sure there are more...

[Mr Know It All]

So I guess Lebron's MVP's don't mean anything. You know, because it's a media award.

That's correct, they don't mean a damn thing to me, if you want to know.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All awards voted by the media. Is Steve Nash a top 10 player of all time because of his MVP awards? I'm talking about empirical evidence, not opinion based rankings.

Who should have won those awards instead of Kobe given the history of how those awards have always been given out?

:confusedshrug:

Empirical evidence (errrr win shares) suggests LeBron needs to up his game to get on Chris Paul's level and that David Robinson is the best big man to ever step on the court.

[Heavincent]

He's a great player, top 20-25 all time

It's ridiculous shit like this that proves your agenda against Kobe.

As for those negs, I don't care because I wasn't the one who negged you.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

I think he'll mesh fine with Nash, mostly because he has respect for him and will make it work, same with Nash.

"I don't like having the ball" is funny though. :oldlol:

[poido123]

You do realize that Kobe's resume matches up with nearly everybody even when you throw out everybody's rings right?

He is likely to retire 1 or 2 in all nba awards, all star team awards, and all defensive team awards .

Only guy trying in the all star games :facepalm

and you have already seen my comment about all-defensive teams, not like he has had any serious competition for those awards, he is not a good or great defender. All NBA awards are pretty meaningless if your a star in the league, its like a default award.

[Mr Know It All]

Who should have won those awards instead of Kobe given the history of how those awards have always been given out?

:confusedshrug:

Empirical evidence (errrr win shares) suggests LeBron needs to up his game to get on Chris Paul's level and that David Robinson is the best big man to ever step on the court.

I don't really understand where you are coming from. First of all, you judge these statistics by also considering others, and when I reference PER and win shares I am referring to production on a year by year basis (I understand Chris Paul led the league in 2008, and I believe he was the best player that year).

David Robinson is currently 9th on the all time win shares list. Again, I don't really know what you are referring to...:confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not a a Kobe fan, but.........


He's a great player, top 20-25 all time absolutely.

Really? Top 20-25? Yeah, you really are a freaking moron. :oldlol:

[Mr Know It All]

It's ridiculous shit like this that proves your agenda against Kobe.

As for those negs, I don't care because I wasn't the one who negged you.

Top 20-25 ranges from 25-10 the way I am referring to it. Any all time lists once you get beyond top 10 (hell even top 5) are usually arbitrary anyway.

I don't know why top 20-25 is considered such an insult.:confusedshrug:

[Heavincent]

Top 20-25 ranges from 25-10 the way I am referring to it. Any all time lists once you get beyond top 10 (hell even top 5) are usually arbitrary anyway.

I don't know why top 20-25 is considered such an insult.:confusedshrug:

He's not outside of the top 10. It's obviously very subjective, but putting Kobe outside of the top 10 is extremely questionable at best. Putting him outside the top 15 is beyond ridiculous.

[Mr Know It All]

He's not outside of the top 10. It's obviously very subjective, but putting Kobe outside of the top 10 is extremely questionable at best. Putting him outside the top 15 is beyond ridiculous.

Why when there are players in that range who have had individual statistical dominance equal to or superior to Kobe? I'm not talking about ranking "career" or "legacy", I'm talking about a player throughout their career with regards to their individual production.

[swag2011]

LOL at people thinking Kobe's insecure. Nothing for him to be insecure about, he has 5 rings, and is a consensus top 10 all time player. Hate on him all you want, call him a sidekick all you want, but for him to be referred to as a sidekick and still be generally recognized as a top 10 all time player is LEGENDARY.

Now while yall analyze PER, win shares, and all that other BS to try and discredit Kobe, he's gearing up for number 6. Getting ready to hear the excuses now hahahahaha

[poido123]

Where are you Yao Ming's Foot? I answered your questions and I take it the silence is that you have nothing to say for your god? I thought so.

Hope I didnt make you cry, realising that your hero is a sham, something really hard to take for you. I know you love sucking his **** and everything.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

-His only MVP was a gifted one, one that I think was more a longevity award , moreso than the year he had which is what the award is judged on.
-The finals MVP he was handed, when Gasol was clearly the best player in the series
His overrated defense that has landed him all defensive team selections
-Riding shaq to 3 championships as the second fiddle.
-Most of his career he has had good to great players and teams around him that hidden his tendency to ball hog and chuck.
-His last two titles was during a period of a weak western conference. Only Boston could be considered a team to be good or great or real competition for the title at that time.
-ESPN and media has carried a fake image that Kobe is a great, based on how his game has similarity to the last money spinner named Jordan.

There's just a few, and Im sure there are more...

:lol

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between unsupported opinion and concrete facts.


Opinion: "Kobe's MVP was "gifted""

Fact: MVPs are commonly given high scoring/assisting players on regular season teams with high win totals. In 2008 only the Celtics and Pistons had better records and neither of them had the offensive player that matched the typical MVP profile


Opinion "Gasol was clearly the better player on more worthy of the Finals MVP"


Show me a similar case in NBA history where a player with Gasol type numbers received a Finals MVP over a player with Kobesque numbers. I highly doubt it has ever happened.


Opinion- Kobe's defense is overrated


- What evidence is there to believe that Kobe's defense is more overrated more than any other superstar player in league history?


Opinion Being second fiddle to Shaq

Who wouldn't be second fiddle to prime Shaq?


Opinion: Kobe would chuck and ball hog if not for....


What legendary scorer would not score and shoot more if hypothetically surrounded by weaker players?


Opinion: The Western conference was weak


How do those teams win loss records compare to the win loss records that other legendary players faced on their road to the Finals. The East has been garbage for the last decade. You couldn't be more off on this "fact".


Opinion: ESPN created Kobe as great as a ode to Jordan


Kobe wasn't the first next Jordan. He was just the only one to stick around collecting rings and delusional haters like they are going out of style. Show me how ESPN's treatment of Kobe is any different than any other player achieving that level of success.

[poido123]

LOL at people thinking Kobe's insecure. Nothing for him to be insecure about, he has 5 rings, and is a consensus top 10 all time player. Hate on him all you want, call him a sidekick all you want, but for him to be referred to as a sidekick and still be generally recognized as a top 10 all time player is LEGENDARY.

Now while yall analyze PER, win shares, and all that other BS to try and discredit Kobe, he's gearing up for number 6. Getting ready to hear the excuses now hahahahaha

Regurgitating what every other Kobe fanboy says. Do you go into threads and not read what other posters have said? read the part where I explain why his career and persona is fake and get back to me, cheers.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't really understand where you are coming from. First of all, you judge these statistics by also considering others, and when I reference PER and win shares I am referring to production on a year by year basis (I understand Chris Paul led the league in 2008, and I believe he was the best player that year).

David Robinson is currently 9th on the all time win shares list. Again, I don't really know what you are referring to...:confusedshrug:


http://i.imgur.com/hFMEs.png

:confusedshrug:

[Mr Know It All]

http://i.imgur.com/hFMEs.png

:confusedshrug:

Ah win shares per 48.

As I stated, its not an be all end all statistic. You have to take them in context, just like he's 9th in overall win shares. When I was referring to Lebron's statistical dominance (or guys like 08 Paul, 06/07 Dirk, 04 Garnett) I said that you must take the statistical evidence while analyzing and taking into account every variable.

The combination of PER, win shares, and win shares per 48 have routinely shown dominant seasons from great players (Jordan dominated all three categories during his prime years, Shaq during his, Kareem during his, etc.) So dismissing one advanced statistic because one player is ranked unusually high in an all time ranking is irrelevant. And it doesn't strengthen your argument whatsoever.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ah win shares per 48.

As I stated, its not an be all end all statistic. You have to take them in context, just like he's 9th in overall win shares. When I was referring to Lebron's statistical dominance (or guys like 08 Paul, 06/07 Dirk, 04 Garnett) I said that you must take the statistical evidence while analyzing and taking into account every variable.

The combination of PER, win shares, and win shares per 48 have routinely shown dominant seasons from great players (Jordan dominated all three categories during his prime years, Shaq during his, Kareem during his, etc.) So dismissing one advanced statistic because one player is ranked unusually high in an all time ranking is irrelevant. And it doesn't strengthen your argument whatsoever.

You look at that list and think one player is unusually high. :facepalm

I didn't even make an argument. I just its funny to see you try to co opt that idea that advanced statistics are what matter since they are unbiased while at the same time celebrating Lebron James hypothetical titles that will based on your own brilliant unbiased deduction never match up against his flameouts with the Cavs. Maybe you forgot to get the memo, but LeBron James fanboys ditched the stats mantra once they realized that Bosh and Wade were going to suddenly make him appear to be a worse player.

[Mr Know It All]

You look at that list and think one player is unusually high. :facepalm

I didn't even make an argument. I just its funny to see you try to co opt that idea that advanced statistics are what matter since they are unbiased while at the same time celebrating Lebron James hypothetical titles that will based on your own brilliant unbiased deduction never match up against his flameouts with the Cavs. Maybe you forgot to get the memo, but LeBron James fanboys ditched the stats mantra once they realized that Bosh and Wade were going to suddenly make him appear to be a worse player.

Celebrating hypothetical titles? When did I ever do that?:confusedshrug:

I said advanced statistics and statistics in general are extremely valuable in judging player production, and ultimately player standing all time. I am no Lebron fan boy, in fact as a player I dislike many aspects about his personality and the way he presents himself on the court (some of the ridiculous flopping is absurd and unbecoming of any player, let alone one of his talent).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Celebrating hypothetical titles? When did I ever do that?:confusedshrug:

I said advanced statistics and statistics in general are extremely valuable in judging player production, and ultimately player standing all time. I am no Lebron fan boy, in fact as a player I dislike many aspects about his personality and the way he presents himself on the court (some of the ridiculous flopping is absurd and unbecoming of any player, let alone one of his talent).

"Lebron, finally equipped with the help that made moronic basketball analysts doubt him (it's a team sport, durr), is poised to make multiple Finals and probably win multiple titles (already has one)."

:confusedshrug:

Its funny how Chris Bosh would be the best 2nd best teammate Kobe had on any title team but is simply part of the "help" for Lebron.

[poido123]

:lol

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between unsupported opinion and concrete facts.

Fact: MVPs are commonly given high scoring/assisting players on regular season teams with high win totals. In 2008 only the Celtics and Pistons had better records and neither of them had the offensive player that matched the typical MVP profile

This is too easy. Chris Paul and Lebron had the stats of high scoring and assisting players. This isnt true at all, Pierce in 2008, Billups in 2004, and Dumars in 1989 had average scoring outputs. You could also say Worthy and Johnson in 1987 and 1988, particularly worthy who had low assists and rebound totals.


Show me a similar case in NBA history where a player with Gasol type numbers received a Finals MVP over a player with Kobesque numbers. I highly doubt it has ever happened.

I answered this above, Paul Pierce 2008, Billups 2004, Dumars 1989, Worthy 1988, technically you could leave out MAgic in 1987 for his high assists totals.



- What evidence is there to believe that Kobe's defense is more overrated more than any other superstar player in league history?

Well the fact he has as many first all defensive team selections as GREAT defenders like Garnett, and Payton is a travesty. Further to that he has often been the second best on his OWN team, Artest was left out, while Kobe gets selected? go figure.

Who wouldn't be second fiddle to prime Shaq?

Jordan


What legendary scorer would not score and shoot more if hypothetically surrounded by weaker players?

That is of course a true statement. But Kobe has had adequate teammates to do that, yet he still shoots too many shots at an inefficient level.

How do those teams win loss records compare to the win loss records that other legendary players faced on their road to the Finals. The East has been garbage for the last decade. You couldn't be more off on this "fact".

Well we are talking about a weak era and period of basketball. Only up until last year have we seen serious teams come to the fore. ie the heat and thunder and even the Celtics and Spurs who are still right up there. The depth this year is alot better, and I give more weight to who wins a championship this season. However the superteams are pretty stacked and do cast a shadow over the success and difficulty of winning the title.



Kobe wasn't the first next Jordan. He was just the only one to stick around collecting rings and delusional haters like they are going out of style. Show me how ESPN's treatment of Kobe is any different than any other player achieving that level of success.

They do it to Lebron and they do it to Kobe. To some extent they do it for Griffin and to a lesser extent Durant, but the difference is Kobe has had an entire career that has been propped up and protected by the media.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They do it to Lebron and they do it to Kobe. To some extent they do it for Griffin and to a lesser extent Durant, but the difference is Kobe has had an entire career that has been propped up and protected by the media.

:biggums:

Did you suffer from a coma from 2004-2008?

[G-Funk]

You're acting as if I think Kobe is a bad player, or even "just a good player". He's a great player, top 20-25 all time absolutely. He has had dominant and very impressive statistical seasons, there is no argument about this (although they are not as dominant as his supporters would like to push forward). But his fans and the media's insistence on him being ranked in the top 10 or top 5 is something that is flat out not backed up by his numbers or individual production.

And as for me being mad about his success in your original post quoting me, here's some wonderful neg gems I've received for posting my polite opinion on Kobe just in the past hour:

"Negged you ****ing ****"

"STFU"

And yet I am the one who is angry? Sounds like some of the people on here are as insecure as Kobe is right now.:oldlol:





http://gifs.gifbin.com/092011/reverse-1316713879_castle_reaction.gif


http://iamcandyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/wtf-reaction.gif

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr187/Ezmo-x/GIFS/Gif29.gif

[Legends66NBA7]

The agenda on Insidehoops from both sides here is ****ing amazing.

[longtime lurker]

Lol how the hell does this thread go to 12 pages? Unless you count Robert Horry in his generation what exactly has Kobe said that's untrue?

[poido123]

:biggums:

Did you suffer from a coma from 2004-2008?

How can the media protect such a bad team? It was Kobe and scraps at the time.

You gonna act like I didnt just answer all your questions and in the process handed your ass back?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is too easy. Chris Paul and Lebron had the stats of high scoring and assisting players. This isnt true at all, Pierce in 2008, Billups in 2004, and Dumars in 1989 had average scoring outputs. You could also say Worthy and Johnson in 1987 and 1988, particularly worthy who had low assists and rebound totals.

The Hornets and Cavs had fewer wins than the Lakers and yes it is true this comment references regular season MVPs not Finals MVPs.


I answered this above, Paul Pierce 2008, Billups 2004, Dumars 1989, Worthy 1988, technically you could leave out MAgic in 1987 for his high assists totals.

Pierce, Worthy and Dumars were all leading scorers of the series. Just like Kobe. You are not very good at this.

The gap between Hamilton and Billups was 0.4 points. The gao between Kobe and Pau was 10.0-13.8.


Well the fact he has as many first all defensive team selections as GREAT defenders like Garnett, and Payton is a travesty. Further to that he has often been the second best on his OWN team, Artest was left out, while Kobe gets selected? go figure

This doesn't answer the question. Is Kobe the only player in NBA history to get superstar bias votes in all defensive team selections? How did it just start and stop with him?


Jordan


so 1 player in NBA history. That's definately a fair criticism then. :oldlol:


Well we are talking about a weak era and period of basketball. Only up until last year have we seen serious teams come to the fore. ie the heat and thunder and even the Celtics and Spurs who are still right up there. The depth this year is alot better, and I give more weight to who wins a championship this season. However the superteams are pretty stacked and do cast a shadow over the success and difficulty of winning the title.


This isn't comprehensible English. Try again.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How can the media protect such a bad team? It was Kobe and scraps at the time.

You gonna act like I didnt just answer all your questions and in the process handed your ass back?

Yeah man I wouldn't be surprised if Obama picks you up to prepare for the next debate. You are brilliant. :oldlol:

[poido123]

Yeah man I wouldn't be surprised if Obama picks you up to prepare for the next debate. You are brilliant. :oldlol:

:confusedshrug: You concede defeat. Thanks, that's all I wanted to know :pimp: You asked for facts and called me out, and I gave it to you. I don't see anything you have disagreed with in my response so I take it you have no counter argument.

[chazzy]

why is this thread so long

[Deuce Bigalow]

-His only MVP was a gifted one, one that I think was more a longevity award , moreso than the year he had which is what the award is judged on(Chris Paul or Lebron had better credentials that year).
-The finals MVP he was handed, when Gasol was clearly the best player in the series
His overrated defense that has landed him all defensive team selections
-Riding shaq to 3 championships as the second fiddle.
-Most of his career he has had good to great players and teams around him that hidden his tendency to ball hog and chuck.
-His last two titles was during a period of a weak western conference. Only Boston could be considered a team to be good or great or real competition for the title at that time.
-ESPN and media has carried a fake image that Kobe is a great, based on how his game has similarity to the last money spinner named Jordan.

There's just a few, and Im sure there are more...
He was considered the consensus best player on the planet and was on the best team in the western conference.
Kobe was the best player for the entire series in the Finals in both years he won Finals MVP.
He made some underserved defensive teams maybe, but in his prime he was a good defender, not overrated.
That point doesn't make sense.
In 2009-10, the 8th seed in the West won 50 games, pretty weak huh?
So Kobe isn't great, great point...

"We're all surrounded by idiots"
-Kobe Bryant

[poido123]

The Hornets and Cavs had fewer wins than the Lakers and yes it is true this comment references regular season MVPs not Finals MVPs.

Wrong.
Link: http://espn.go.com/nba/history/awards/_/id/11





Pierce, Worthy and Dumars were all leading scorers of the series. Just like Kobe. You are not very good at this.

What, now your backtracking on what you originally said? About scoring and assisting outputs of MVP calibre players? Gasols scoring and rebounding outputs, was very similar if not better than these 3 or 4 examples I gave of previous FINALS MVPs

The gap between Hamilton and Billups was 0.4 points. The gao between Kobe and Pau was 10.0-13.8.
So based on that, Kobe can shoot the ball so much that he reaches good points totals, yet Gasol who is more efficent and takes less shot is penalised from being finals MVP, because his stats weren't padded? OK. Let not mention Kobe did not have a remarkeable series or standout and Gasol did.

This doesn't answer the question. Is Kobe the only player in NBA history to get superstar bias votes in all defensive team selections? How did it just start and stop with him?

No he is not and wont be the last. When it comes to judging a person's accolades such as alldefensive team selections, it should be taken with a grain of salt. Most of these are laughable, when you consider the defensive players Kobe is stacked up against in the first team selections. :facepalm



so 1 player in NBA history. That's definately a fair criticism then. :oldlol:

Well when you consider that Shaq is a top 10 player all time, and pointing out players who can score better than shaq and be as dominant as shaq are also centres, they simply would share the load. ie Wilt, Hakeem and Kareem.


This isn't comprehensible English. Try again.

Its readable enough. Kobe's championship years have either been taking advantage of a weak few years, or riding Shaqs coattails. :confusedshrug:

[RaininTwos]

I know that but I'm speaking in the context of Kobe specifically. In what other ways do you define a generation in the NBA? Unless we just pick an arbitrary year to contradict Kobe's statement...
Yeah I see what you are saying, it would hard to pick a year to cut of each end and make a definitive unbiased study of his statement.


The agenda on Insidehoops from both sides here is ****ing amazing.
These people make it seem possible to write a thesis on one quote from Kobe.


why is this thread so long
My dude, I know you remember 2009 when Kobe's "The Knicks never had a marquee player" thread was like 40 pages, lol.

[longtime lurker]

He was considered the consensus best player on the planet and was on the best team in the western conference.
Kobe was the best player for the entire series in the Finals in both years he won Finals MVP.
He made some underserved defensive teams maybe, but in his prime he was a good defender, not overrated.
That point doesn't make sense.
In 2009-10, the 8th seed in the West won 50 games, pretty weak huh?
So Kobe isn't great, great point...

"We're all surrounded by idiots"
-Kobe Bryant

Why are you even responding to this guy? I don't take anyone seriously who believes Pau Gasol deserved finals mvp or talks about the media suPposedly propping up Kobe. People like that just make up things in their mind.

[Legends66NBA7]

I know that but I'm speaking in the context of Kobe specifically. In what other ways do you define a generation in the NBA? Unless we just pick an arbitrary year to contradict Kobe's statement...

I missed this question before and since I don't really want to debate anything else... I asked BlackVVaves and DatAsh a similar question and I got this:

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7833018&postcount=108


It's usually listed as 20-22 years, or somewhere in that ball-park.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7833171&postcount=123


Yea, 25-30 years is typically the measuring stick in sociology. For NBA purposes, it's usually considered a smaller scale. I'd say, for instance, that the generation that Lebron is considered in begins with Amare's draft class, and ends with Bogut's draft class.

It's truly all subjective, but it makes sense when you sit and look at it. When we look at Durant's "generation," we automatically think of players like D-Rose, Aldridge, Bargnani, Westbrook, John Wall, Blake Griffin. And, just like Lebron's generation class, those players all fall within a 3-4 year window where they were drafted.

Idk, that's my perception at least.

And my response was:

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7833029&postcount=110


the term of years, roughly 30 among human beings, accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.

So give or take 20-25 years, perhaps ? It's subjective, like Vaves mentioned.


These people make it seem possible to write a thesis on one quote from Kobe.

Yeah, seriously. And it's not just Kobe either, I could see other stars like James, Howard, etc... get burned for this too on here.

Stuff is getting crazy in here.

[poido123]

Why are you even responding to this guy? I don't take anyone seriously who believes Pau Gasol deserved finals mvp or talks about the media suPposedly propping up Kobe. People like that just make up things in their mind.

Do they? Or is it you don't want to hear or see anything negative against your favourite player?

Pau Gasol was considered by many to be the better player out of the two. I have seen some radical justifications of Kobe's performances and his no show in the big games, to the point where I wonder if any Kobe fan thinks at all rationally. There are a few of you, so Im not directing this at the knowledgeable Laker fans..

[longtime lurker]

Do they? Or is it you don't want to hear or see anything negative against your favourite player?

Pau Gasol was considered by many to be the better player out of the two. I have seen some radical justifications of Kobe's performances and his no show in the big games, to the point where I wonder if any Kobe fan thinks at all rationally. There are a few of you, so Im not directing this at the knowledgeable Laker fans..

Really? Lol by many do you mean yourself and all your alternate accounts... Nobody outside of messageboards actually spouts this garbage. Pau played great but Kobe was the finals MVP. It was so bad that he was even getting finals MVP consideration even if the Lakers lost. Lol @ no show in big games. Lakers won cry me a river build a bridge and get over it

[Deuce Bigalow]

"rode shaq's coattails to 3 rings"
"Pau was Finals MVP"
"his accomplishments are undeserved"

Got to love what Kobe does to some of these people :oldlol:

[poido123]

He was considered the consensus best player on the planet and was on the best team in the western conference.

So how many HOFers were playing during or near their peak during this period Kobe was considered best player? Not many. So this isn't really that remarkeable.

Kobe was the best player for the entire series in the Finals in both years he won Finals MVP.

No, he wasn't. His points total is not indicative of his performances, nor did he show his clutchness when it mattered, which Gasol did. Gasol was better in both series.
He made some underserved defensive teams maybe, but in his prime he was a good defender, not overrated.
Wow, you conceed only that he had SOME undeserved defensive teams? LOL Id say all of his first Defensive team selections were undeserved, and Id say even at his peak he had defensive flaws not shared by good to great defenders in the league at the time and in the past.
That point doesn't make sense.
In 2009-10, the 8th seed in the West won 50 games, pretty weak huh?
So Kobe isn't great, great point...
Yeah it was weak, the thunder were too young to be contenders, san antonio had its worst version of contending teams its had before, mavericks team didnt have chandler yet, A phoenix team with nash and stoudemire without Joe Johnson, Portland with a young roy and aldridge, nuggets teams with melo and chauncey, but really not a contender, and last is the jazz who were not even worth mentioning. So yeah, Western conference was weak indeed.

"We're all surrounded by idiots"
-Kobe Bryant

"We're all surrounded by Kobe-tards"
-Poido123

[LakersReign]

Do they? Or is it you don't want to hear or see anything negative against your favourite player?

Pau Gasol was considered by many to be the better player out of the two. I have seen some radical justifications of Kobe's performances and his no show in the big games, to the point where I wonder if any Kobe fan thinks at all rationally. There are a few of you, so Im not directing this at the knowledgeable Laker fans..

Funny how you only want to deal with Pau's performance as it applies to 2010, but conveniently want to ignore his performances since then? Well....it's not like you have an agenda or anything....right?:rolleyes:

It's also funny how you state, that Pau was supposedly considered "by many" to be the better player, but conveniently, again, post no links to back that up. And that's only cuz no credible sports journalist would ever say such a thing. That's exactly why knowledgeable Laker/Kobe fans already know you're full of sh*t:facepalm

[Kobr]

Brian, why are you even still here?

[RazorBaLade]

this guys like the dude on the corner of the freeway holding a paper bag saying the us caused 9/11, jews run the world, MK Ultra controls us, illumaniti controls us all, etc.

[poido123]

Funny how you only want to deal with Pau's performance as it applies to 2010, but conveniently want to ignore his performances since then? Well....it's not like you have an agenda or anything....right?:rolleyes:

It's also funny how you state, that Pau was supposedly considered "by many" to be the better player, but conveniently again post no links to back that up. Why is that? Knowledgeable Laker/Kobe fans already know you're full of sh*t:hammerhead:

There you go. Link: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233167&page=2

Id conceed that the opinion is kinda divided, not by most. However nearly all the opinions of Kobe being the finals MVP is from Kobe fans, funny that :rolleyes: And considering ISH is dominated by Laker fans.

[TheCorporation]

TWO finals MVPS

[LakersReign]

There you go. Link: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233167&page=2

Id conceed that the opinion is kinda divided, not by most. However nearly all the opinions of Kobe being the finals MVP is from Kobe fans, funny that :rolleyes: And considering ISH is dominated by Laker fans.

:roll: :lol :oldlol: :roll:

So....no....ESPN, NBA.com, FoxSports, etc article....huh....32dayz/godzuki/miamithrice/poido? Big surprise. I REST MY CASE!!!!:applause:

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

TWO finals MVPS

They were always going to give the Finals MVP to Kobe Bryant. Whether or not he deserved it is a different question. I for one think Pau Gasol was better than him in the 2010 finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://blog-imgs-18.fc2.com/n/i/k/niknews/LA5.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XwGmhOeaFq4/TBwVQ6Kht7I/AAAAAAAADmY/2kBTY6EJXQs/s1600/NBA+Champions+2010+#3.jpg

Kobe Bryant - 2 time NBA Finals MVP (2009, 2010)

FACT

[NumberSix]

G.O.A.T. isn't even close to being the same kind of poster as pauk, number six, etc. He's one of the most knowledgeable and most objective posters on this site. After reading his posts for three years now, I have no idea who his favorite player(s) and team is.
Dog, I'm literally the single most objective poster on this forum. It's pretty obvious when I'm being sincere about something or when I'm joking/trolling.

:basketball

[poido123]

:roll: :lol :oldlol: :roll:

So....no....ESPN, NBA.com, FoxSports, etc article....huh....32dayz/godzuki/miamithrice/poido? Big surprise. I REST MY CASE!!!!:applause:

So when it comes to ESPN or any other network opinion, it is somehow better than what the fans believe or think? Im pretty sure they get it wrong alot, and Im also sure they make crazy predictions that leave the fans scratching their head.

I was merely pointing out a link where it had been discussed and argued by other people other than me. Nice red bars btw LOL

[Money 23]

I'm not a huge Kobe fan, but in 09 his team wasn't that good
Neither was their competition. Really weak actually, especially in the Finals.

The second best, arguably "the best" team was ravaged due to injury.

[Mr Know It All]

this guys like the dude on the corner of the freeway holding a paper bag saying the us caused 9/11, jews run the world, MK Ultra controls us, illumaniti controls us all, etc.

What are you blathering about? The guy is making a contrary argument to a popular belief when it comes to a basketball player. You know, someone who plays a game wherein you shoot a ball into a hoop.

It's totally subjective, and he has every right to come to his own opinion about a player based on other evidence and criteria than what you deem "acceptable".

It's like me saying that people who believe Kobe is an all time great are akin to those who supported the Iraq war initially because the media told them so. Why do people have to get so personal when it comes to debating players? Why can you not just debate someone sensibly without resorting to crap like this?

Honestly grow up.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Nobody has won more championships as "the man" than me in my entire generation. - Tim Duncan

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Neither was their competition. Really weak actually, especially in the Finals.

The second best, arguably "the best" team was ravaged due to injury.

The 09 Magic were a better defensive team than 80% of the defensive teams Jordan faced in the Finals and likely 90% of the defensive teams Jordan faced in the playoffs overall. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What are you blathering about? The guy is making a contrary argument to a popular belief when it comes to a basketball player. You know, someone who plays a game wherein you shoot a ball into a hoop.

It's totally subjective, and he has every right to come to his own opinion about a player based on other evidence and criteria than what you deem "acceptable".

It's like me saying that people who believe Kobe is an all time great are akin to those who supported the Iraq war initially because the media told them so. Why do people have to get so personal when it comes to debating players? Why can you not just debate someone sensibly without resorting to crap like this?

Honestly grow up.

“Too Often We Enjoy the Comfort of Opinion Without the Discomfort of Thought” - JFK

[chazzy]

poido is on a mission

[Money 23]

The 09 Magic were a better defensive team than 80% of the defensive teams Jordan faced in the Finals
They really weren't.

And the majority of quality defenses come from the ECF, which MJ faced in the first three rounds of the playoffs.

ECF was known for gritty, half court play ... much as it is today. You know the defenses that Kobe is known to struggle with compared to his elite wing contemporaries such as Wade, and LeBron who fair better against more physical defenses.


and likely 90% of the defensive teams Jordan faced in the playoffs overall. :confusedshrug:
Not true once again, comparing "defensive ratings" across different eras while not taking context into account has never made sense, but you stick to your insane agenda.

Trying to convince people the '09 Magic are better defense than the late 80s Pistons, early 90's Knicks is beyond retarded. But keep trying to pawn off your propaganda.

[KG215]

Dog, I'm literally the single most objective poster on this forum. It's pretty obvious when I'm being sincere about something or when I'm joking/trolling.

:basketball

I shouldn't have included you. Since May-ish (the playoffs) I've actually come to appreciate you as a poster. My first impression was an ignorant biased LeBron fanboy. Took me a bit, but I realized you're hardly ever serious and a good poster.

I got caught up in the moment and just listed all the names he listed.

[KG215]

They really weren't.

And the majority of quality defenses come from the ECF, which MJ faced in the first three rounds of the playoffs.

ECF was known for gritty, half court play ... much as it is today. You know the defenses that Kobe is known to struggle with compared to his elite wing contemporaries such as Wade, and LeBron who fair better against more physical defenses.


Not true once again, comparing "defensive ratings" across different eras while not taking context into account has never made sense, but you stick to your insane agenda.

Trying to convince people the '09 Magic are better defense than the late 80s Pistons, early 90's Knicks is beyond retarded. But keep trying to pawn off your propaganda.

You're fighting a losing battle. There's been plenty of posters point out to him the flaw in saying the defenses Jordan faced in his playoff runs were worse than the defenses Kobe faced in his playoff runs by using DRtg as justification. It's a dead horse argument that's been beat to death with him.

I will concede, though, that the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics were better defensively than any team Jordan faced in the Finals, though.

[Mr Know It All]

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]

[BlueandGold]

:biggums:

Did you suffer from a coma from 2004-2008?
Most likely wasn't watching the league back then. That Denver incident killed Kobe's image with the public and with the media.. even more so than Lebron's decision. Simmons himself said Kobe got robbed of his MVP vote in 06 because of the Denver incident and he hates anything Lakers.. he has like 6 celtics in his top10 :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

he has like 6 celtics in his top10 :facepalm

I don't really follow Bill Simmons that much, which Celtics does he have in the Top 10 ?

[Money 23]

I will concede, though, that the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics were better defensively than any team Jordan faced in the Finals, though.
I'm not trying to argue against him. I know he's insane, and is a Laker slut.

I will concede the 2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics, and 2010 Celtics were better than any "Finals" defense MJ faced, but as I said MJ faced his superior defensive attention from teams WITHIN his conference. Which play a style that lend themselves to that style of ball.

I'm not going to sit here and say those three teams are better defensive clubs than the Daley Pistons, Riley Knicks, and Riley Heat simply due to skewed and flawed Defensive Ratings.

Kobe does not play well against ELITE ECF opponents and defenses. The style of play does something to him.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They really weren't.

And the majority of quality defenses come from the ECF, which MJ faced in the first three rounds of the playoffs.

ECF was known for gritty, half court play ... much as it is today. You know the defenses that Kobe is known to struggle with compared to his elite wing contemporaries such as Wade, and LeBron who fair better against more physical defenses.


Not true once again, comparing "defensive ratings" across different eras while not taking context into account has never made sense, but you stick to your insane agenda.

Trying to convince people the '09 Magic are better defense than the late 80s Pistons, early 90's Knicks is beyond retarded. But keep trying to pawn off your propaganda.

Who said anything about defensive ratings across eras?

The Orlando Magic were the #1 defensive ranked team of 2009. The Nets were the #1 ranked defense of 2002. They were both elite ECF defense by any reasonable definition of the word and he shredded them.

Jordan faced the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 9th and 17th best ranked of their respective video game eras. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not trying to argue against him. I know he's insane, and is a Laker slut.

I will concede the 2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics, and 2010 Celtics were better than any "Finals" defense MJ faced, but as I said MJ faced his superior defensive attention from teams WITHIN his conference. Which play a style that lend themselves to that style of ball.

I'm not going to sit here and say those three teams are better defensive clubs than the Daley Pistons, Riley Knicks, and Riley Heat simply due to skewed and flawed Defensive Ratings.

Kobe does not play well against ELITE ECF opponents and defenses. The style of play does something to him.

Wow those defenses sure sound tough. Do you think they could possibly compare to the early 00 Spurs or it required that have to be hacks to be a great defense? :oldlol:

I love how you guys are so proud of yourself for conceding that some of the greatest defenses of all time are better than teams that were not even the best defensive team in that era of video game offenses. So brave!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you accuse contrary opinions to your own of being without thought? Even though plenty of Kobe detractors in this thread including myself have brought forth evidence to support our own opinions.

That's wonderful spin you have there, worthy of a true politician.

My Opinion: Thoughtful

Your Opinion: Thoughtless

Now that's the kind of mindset to be proud of. Do you dismiss every single person who disagrees with something you say as being thoughtless? Just a question.

What evidence did you present? Which facts? Win Shares and PER?

[Mr Know It All]

What evidence did you present? Which facts? Win Shares and PER?

Ah, so again you are establishing criteria which you will only accept in an informed debate. Statistics or advanced statistics are apparently worth nothing in your eyes, so they do not qualify as evidence.

What a thoughtful and intelligent person you are. Like I said, you'd make a great politician.:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ah, so again you are establishing criteria which you will only accept in an informed debate. Statistics or advanced statistics are apparently worth nothing in your eyes, so they do not qualify as evidence.

What a thoughtful and intelligent person you are. Like I said, you'd make a great politician.:oldlol:

I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. PER and Win Shares it is. :lol :facepalm

I give you credit for at least trying something but when I referred to opinions without thought I wasn't referring to you.

[KG215]

I don't really follow Bill Simmons that much, which Celtics does he have in the Top 10 ?

In his updated "Pyramid" that I think he released in 2010 he had two Celtics in his top 10: Russell and Bird. I have to think BlueandGold was just using hyperbole to prove his point.

[Legends66NBA7]

In his updated "Pyramid" that I think he released in 2010 he had two Celtics in his top 10: Russell and Bird. I have to think BlueandGold was just using hyperbole to prove his point.

Oh alright.

Russell and Bird would be the only Celtics in most arbitrary Top 10's, as they should.... Don't think I've seen anybody try to push another Celtic in the Top 10, unless they trying to make a push for John Havlicek and/or Bob Cousy.

[KG215]

Oh alright.

Russell and Bird would be the only Celtics in most arbitrary Top 10's, as they should.... Don't think I've seen anybody try to push another Celtic in the Top 10, unless they trying to make a push for John Havlicek and/or Bob Cousy.

Yeah, he has Havlicek at 14 and Cousy at 21. That might be a little high for both, but neither are absurdly high or anything. I'd probably have Havlicek in the 20-25 range somewhere, though.

[poido123]

Most likely wasn't watching the league back then. That Denver incident killed Kobe's image with the public and with the media.. even more so than Lebron's decision. Simmons himself said Kobe got robbed of his MVP vote in 06 because of the Denver incident and he hates anything Lakers.. he has like 6 celtics in his top10 :facepalm


Ive been a long time fan of the game since the first game I watched back in 1987. Thanks for assuming I was born yesterday. :facepalm

My join date kinda makes your statement look a bit stupid. Are you special?

[RazorBaLade]

What are you blathering about? The guy is making a contrary argument to a popular belief when it comes to a basketball player. You know, someone who plays a game wherein you shoot a ball into a hoop.

It's totally subjective, and he has every right to come to his own opinion about a player based on other evidence and criteria than what you deem "acceptable".

It's like me saying that people who believe Kobe is an all time great are akin to those who supported the Iraq war initially because the media told them so. Why do people have to get so personal when it comes to debating players? Why can you not just debate someone sensibly without resorting to crap like this?

Honestly grow up.

Doesn't matter, just because one is a more serious subject than another doesn't mean it does not indicate just how contrary and baseless his argument is. He has the right to have an opinion but the problem is that he, just like every conspiracy theorist, act like his opinion is actually based on facts and EVERYONE is clueless besides him and its SO OBVIOUS that he is completely correct.

It just sounded like a very similar thought process to me. No, your example is still being the extra contrary weirdo because its still telling me that kobe is only a great because of the media.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, he has Havlicek at 14 and Cousy at 21. That might be a little high for both, but neither are absurdly high or anything. I'd probably have Havlicek in the 20-25 range somewhere, though.

Yeah, Hondo does seem a little high, but it's unreasonable.

Cousy is tricky to rank for me. Just going off accolades and legacy, what's to say he shouldn't be out off the Top 15-20 ? Top 10 perhaps ? He was also getting GOAT claims during his time too... not that I agree with that, but it was being said. In context, he seems overrated, but it really comes down what your criteria is.

[chains5000]

Cocky or not, it's true.

[All Net]

right I've had to delete a crap load of posts as i didn't want to be forced to close this thread so now stick to basketball.

Any back and forth arguing and name calling and I will have to lock this thread for moderating reasons

[DatAsh]

At first I thought it was a gimmick, but now I think he really is mentally unstable. He's far too consistent for it to be a gimmick.

[LakersReign]

At first I thought it was a gimmick, but now I think he really is mentally unstable. He's far too consistent for it to be a gimmick.

(yawn):rolleyes:
http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/Emperor-s-New-Clothes-The

Post that hot garbage as much as you ret**ds(datash) want to. It'll work about as well as rrr3's LYING a**, B-E-G-G-I-N-G me, to post a pic of myself to bail his sorry a** out. Do you(datash) see dead people too?:roll:


right I've had to delete a crap load of posts as i didn't want to be forced to close this thread so now stick to basketball.

Any back and forth arguing and name calling and I will have to lock this thread for moderating reasons

Like I previously said, just go right ahead and do so. They're just going to come right back in here and do the same thing as before. They have nothing to add to the the thread, so their only purpose of posting in it is to derail it. And the idiotic post above proves my point. Lock this thread.

[kennethgriffin]

16 pages later.



water is wet


the sky is blue


and the grass is green



honestly. why is something that is completely 100% accurate being debated so much?

kobe is an all time great

kobe is a legend

kobe is the winningest player of the last 17 years

kobe is a top 5-9 player of all time depending on criteria used

why is the same crap argued every day.. jesus christ.. just accept it already. fighting against kobes career hasnt worked after nearly 2 decades. why would it work now?

[kennethgriffin]

kobe haters are more stubborn than the japanese from WW2

they just won't quit no matter how much they get the p*ss beatin out of them

[KG215]

why is the same crap argued every day.. jesus christ.. just accept it already. fighting against kobes career hasnt worked after nearly 2 decades. why would it work now?

You're the one starting a new "Why Kobe is great" thread every other day.

[Optimus Prime]

Kobe is correct and that is making kids furious. :oldlol:

Roleplayers like Horry and Fisher don't apply to this discussion. They helped their teams win for sure but they were never The Man / Co-The Man like Kobe was / is.

Kobe got swag and I love it. :bowdown:

:kobe:

[LakersReign]

Kobe is correct and that is making kids furious. :oldlol:

Roleplayers like Horry and Fisher don't apply to this discussion. They helped their teams win for sure but they were never The Man / Co-The Man like Kobe was / is.

Kobe got swag and I love it. :bowdown:

:kobe:

Yeah...the FAKE Heat fans, aka Lebronytes, are mad as ****. And that's exactly why all they can do is come in here and troll and try to derail the thread:lol

[swag2011]

LOL kobe still got these haters mad i see. It's hard for them to accept the fact that he's a general consensus top 10 all time player. that he has 5 rings. That he's overachieved and accomplished way more than anyone else has. And it kills them to know kobe has a chance to win more rings lol. funny.

[Chrono90]

Love it or hate it.
It's the truth.

[KG215]

Griff, your problem is that you start absurd threads like "Why Kobe is the best PG of the last decade" and "Kobe>>>>Shaq and it's not even close" and get mad when people call you out and argue the absurdity and ignorance of some of your arguments.

[DCL]

kobe is insecure as sh!t

[red1]

kobe is insecure as sh!t
just like his insidehoops fanboys

[AlphaWolf24]

over 13 seasons...and Kobe Haters still MAD!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li6k3gHvbb1qcmnsoo1_400.gif


I love it!

[red1]

over 13 seasons...and Kobe Haters still MAD!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li6k3gHvbb1qcmnsoo1_400.gif


I love it!
:lol this is one of the GOAT gifs

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Kobe won two after Horry retired.

They were drafted four years apart, same generation, unless Shaq and Duncan aren't in the same generation or Hakeem and Robinson etc.
Wow, we're really bringing Robert Horry into the discussion? Robert fckin' Horry? Seriously dude?!?!!?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Yet still can't satisfy his own wife.
lol @ this homo. go visit tmz.com and keep gossip over there you silly faqot.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

I know it sucks because it doesn't fit your agenda, but here's what generation means:

1: All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively

2: The average period, generally considered to be about thirty years, during which children grow up and have children of their own.

Kobe and Horry are from the same generation.
You're reaching dude. You know damn right Horry has no right to be in this discussion. Is Horry even HOF bound? Including Horry into this discussion just proves how petty some of you idiots are.

[LakersReign]

Wow, we're really bringing Robert Horry into the discussion? Robert fckin' Horry? Seriously dude?!?!!?

We already know morons who do that, know nothing about basketball. Just hearing them trying to say, that the standard in the NBA has now changed from MJ to Horry, simply cuz Kobe made some comments, is absolutely hilarious. More proof of exactly why reasonable NBA fans don't take them seriously.:facepalm