Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

[eliteballer]

"I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said. "I thought I would never compare somebody to Michael Jordan. But this guy, LeBron James, he does everything well. Michael did everything well. LeBron James is just bigger, stronger, faster. That's the only difference."

Barkley makes his comments on the first episode of NBA TV's "Open Court," to debut Tuesday at 11 p.m. ET. The series features a round-table discussion of NBA TV and TNT commentators. They include Shaquille O'Neal, Reggie Miller, Kenny Smith, Steve Smith, Chris Webber, Steve Kerr and Ernie Johnson.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8461397/charles-barkley-thinks-lebron-james-better-michael-jordan

[Segatti]

He can pass Jordan, but I'm sure he isn't passing KOBE!

[Whoah10115]

Lebron is not faster than Jordan.

[ripthekik]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Ruutu]

He can pass Jordan, but I'm sure he isn't passing KOBE!
U are right! :cletus:

[Hoiids]

:D :D :D

:cheers:

[DuMa]

theres another "open court" season?

swwwwweet

[stallionaire]

You're a ****ing idiot if you don't think LeBron can pass Jordan.

Also, I love Open Court. Gonna DVR this whole season. good lookin out OP.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Yes he CAN, that doesn't make it likely

[fpliii]

You know, I don't have anything against LeBron, but people need to chill out... :facepalm

There are four active players with GOAT potential (Kobe, Duncan, LeBron, Durant), though it's extremely unlikely that any of them will pull it off. Kobe and Duncan have done the most, but have fewer opportunities remaining. Durant has done some great things since coming into the league, but it's too difficult to project what's going to happen. LeBron has a shot as well, but he just won his first championship and there's a lot of uncertainty with regards to how many more he can win.

Just my $0.02...

[guy]

You know, I don't have anything against LeBron, but people need to chill out... :facepalm

There are four active players with GOAT potential (Kobe, Duncan, LeBron, Durant), though it's extremely unlikely that any of them will pull it off. Kobe and Duncan have done the most, but have fewer opportunities remaining. Durant has done some great things since coming into the league, but it's too difficult to project what's going to happen. LeBron has a shot as well, but he just won his first championship and there's a lot of uncertainty with regards to how many more he can win.

Just my $0.02...

Huh? I think there's no chance Kobe and Duncan can become GOAT unless they all of a sudden become greater players then they ever were and keep it up for a few years.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Huh? I think there's no chance Kobe and Duncan can become GOAT unless they all of a sudden become greater players then they ever were and keep it up for a few years.

If either of them won FMVP (legitimately) then it would be a discussion at least.

[LakersReign]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8461397/charles-barkley-thinks-lebron-james-better-michael-jordan

Lebron may be bigger, faster, and stronger and all that. But he sure as hell isn't going to better than Jordan.

[DatAsh]

You know, I don't have anything against LeBron, but people need to chill out... :facepalm

There are four active players with GOAT potential (Kobe, Duncan, LeBron, Durant), though it's extremely unlikely that any of them will pull it off. Kobe and Duncan have done the most, but have fewer opportunities remaining. Durant has done some great things since coming into the league, but it's too difficult to project what's going to happen. LeBron has a shot as well, but he just won his first championship and there's a lot of uncertainty with regards to how many more he can win.

Just my $0.02...


I think you can realistically cross Kobe and Duncan off that list. Unless they can improve upon their prime selfs - which I find unlikely - and somehow maintain that for 3-4 years, or continue their current level for another 10, I don't see it happening.

[DCL]

so barkley believes bron can win 7 rings as the man?

[G-Funk]

You're a ****ing idiot if you don't think LeBron can pass Jordan.

Also, I love Open Court. Gonna DVR this whole season. good lookin out OP.
I think ur the idiot for thinking he has a shot

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lebron already has more failures and lows than Jordan had in his entire carer, especially in the playoffs. And at that level, it matters.

[fpliii]

Huh? I think there's no chance Kobe and Duncan can become GOAT unless they all of a sudden become greater players then they ever were and keep it up for a few years.


I think you can realistically cross Kobe and Duncan off that list. Unless they can improve upon their prime selfs - which I find unlikely - and somehow maintain that for 3-4 years, or continue their current level for another 10, I don't see it happening.

I'm just trying to name everybody who has even a remote shot at being considered GOAT (except for guys who haven't been in the league long enough). The likelihoods are very small for some, but there's still a remote possibility that needs to be addressed.

[SyRyanYang]

He is capable of passing Mike, talent-wise. Yet he won't.

[Owl]

Charles Barkley just says whatever pops into his head at the time, he never thinks things through. It might make him entertaining to some, but it makes him lousy as a credible analyst.

[QUOTE=Charles Barkley- post-"The Decision"]He

[tmacattack33]

Charles Barkley just says whatever pops into his head at the time, he never thinks things through. It might make him entertaining to some, but it makes him lousy as a credible analyst.


http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2010/07/15/barkley-wouldnt-have-chased-championship-at-age-25/

There's no consistency and no thought going into what he says.

That was his immediate and emotional response to the decision and how it made him feel about Lebron's competitiveness or whatever, more so than his judgement of Lebron as player.

As far as his judgement of Lebron as a player, he's always though of him as an amazing player (though he has of course criticized Lebron when he deserved it...like in the 2011 Finals).

[SpecialQue]

Jordan isn't god. I'm pretty sure another player WILL pass him up at some point.

[TheBigVeto]

He can pass Jordan, but I'm sure he isn't passing KOBE!

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg

[Clippersfan86]

If Lebron can win 4 or 5 rings while being this dominant he absolutely has a case as the GOAT so not sure why people bitch about stuff like this. Sure Jordan was a killer and Lebron was mentally weak but bottom line is production, success and impact and Lebron is already there with Jordan in two of them. Once he has more career and individual success.. another decade as an elite player could push him to that top spot.

[SpecialQue]

If Lebron can win 4 or 5 rings while being this dominant he absolutely has a case as the GOAT so not sure why people bitch about stuff like this. Sure Jordan was a killer and Lebron was mentally weak but bottom line is production, success and impact and Lebron is already there with Jordan in two of them. Once he has more career and individual success.. another decade as an elite player could push him to that top spot.

It's because a lot of people here hate Lebron.

Also, like in politics, and everything else in life, people here have aligned themselves with a particular other player (Jordan, Kobe, Wilt, etc.) who they feel is the GOAT. As such, for whatever reason, even though these players will never give a shit about them, they take any slight PERSONALLY.

[Vragrant]

Lebron already has more failures and lows than Jordan had in his entire carer, especially in the playoffs. And at that level, it matters.

True, you pretty much have to have the perfect career to pass Jordan. So, hypothetically speaking if Lebron does win X amount of MVPs/titles and he's compared to Jordan, ppl will still bring up his '11 Finals performance/ his '10 Celtics performances etc.

[Kurosawa0]

LeBron's probably the best player since MJ, but he's not better.

[SpecialQue]

True, you pretty much have to have the perfect career to pass Jordan. So, hypothetically speaking if Lebron does win X amount of MVPs/titles and he's compared to Jordan, ppl will still bring up his '11 Finals performance/ his '10 Celtics performances etc.

Thing is, Jordan didn't have a perfect career. He failed multiple times before he started winning. Probably the two players who have had anything close to "perfect" careers are Bill Russell and Magic.

[bokes15]

I'm trying to figure out how Lebron has already supplanted Kobe Bryant because of 1 championship. I mean, people have pretty much thrown out Kobe in an all-time great discussion because of the fact that Lebron is "bigger, stronger, and faster" as if that should be a deciding factor in a Lebron vs. Jordan discussion.

[Young X]

Thing is, Jordan didn't have a perfect career. He failed multiple times before he started winning. Probably the two players who have had anything close to "perfect" careers are Bill Russell and Magic.
The Bulls losing to superior teams doesn't mean MJ failed individually.

[Legends66NBA7]

Thing is, Jordan didn't have a perfect career. He failed multiple times before he started winning. Probably the two players who have had anything close to "perfect" careers are Bill Russell and Magic.

How does Magic have a more perfect career than Jordan ?

Jordan has more individual awards, rings, accolades, and had more impressive title runs by 3-peating with 2 completely different teams.

And when you say Jordan failed multiple times before he started winning... these were the teams he lost too in his career in the playoffs:

1985 Bucks: Very good team
1986 Celtics: One of the greatest teams of all-time, NBA Champions
1987 Celtics: NBA Finalist, great team
1988 Pistons: NBA Finalist
1989 Pistons: One of the greatest teams of all-time, NBA Champions
1990 Pistons: NBA Champions
1995 Magic: NBA Finalist

Also, Jordan had less help than Magic did when he started of his career. Magic started his career with reigning 5-time MVP in Kareem, better than any player Jordan ever played with. I get what your saying if your talking clearly about winning and getting to the Finals... then I understand. I just don't think he had a better career than Jordan overall.

I agree with Bill Russell, though. While, many people exaggerate his HOF's... truth is, if it wasn't for his greatness and the legendary 8-peat, more than half of them don't make it in the HOF. Bob Cousy and John Havlicek would the only ones considered to get in the HOF because of their individual play and pioneering/legacy.

[LakersReign]

I'm trying to figure out how Lebron has already supplanted Kobe Bryant because of 1 championship. I mean, people have pretty much thrown out Kobe in an all-time great discussion because of the fact that Lebron is "bigger, stronger, and faster" as if that should be a deciding factor in a Lebron vs. Jordan discussion.

Of course they're going to disregard Kobe, they know nothing about basketball prior to '03, when Lebron signed with the Cavs. If you listen to them, Kobe is the luckiest SOB to have ever lived. Everything he's done is all cuz of luck and circumstance, not skills. But when it comes to Lebron, if you listen to his idiotic fans, he's already equal to MJ and needs to win one more title to surpass him. And that' supposedly all skills, no luck or circumstance:roll:

[jlip]

I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

[rmt]

Lebron already has more failures and lows than Jordan had in his entire carer, especially in the playoffs. And at that level, it matters.

This. Jordan pretty much had a perfect career. Of course, at the beginning his team wasn't good enough but the statistical dominance, 6 rings and 6 FMVPs (in addition to the global impact he had on basketball) will be very difficult to overcome.

Duncan and Kobe have no chance to be better than MJ. Their prime just wasn't anywhere near as dominant.

[LakersReign]

I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

No reasonable NBA fan does that, cuz there's no "special wing" in the HOF for titles like that. It's either a title or nothing. That's something bandwagon Lebron fans do, to try and diminish Kobe's career. Nice try though:applause:

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron has a chance, but the rest of his career has to go perfectly.

4-peat
4 x FMVP
5 x MVP
33,000+ points
10,000+ assists and rebounds
DPOY

As crazy as those accomplishments are they are well within the realm of reality for LeBron. If he plays another 11 years (38 years old, 20 years played) he should easily get the points and rebounds, but the assists might be harder to do depending on his role in his 30's.

A 4 peat is a much more impressive feat than a 3peat since it has only happened once in NBA history.

This can all be ruined if he leaves the Heat for any other team than Cleveland. He would then be a ring chaser.

[Money 23]

Bron has never been faster or quicker than MJ. Never.

As for strength? Bron is bigger, I don't know if he's STRONGER. People always comment on MJ's unusual strength for his size.

And it doesn't always come from sheer muscle mass, or size.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Thing is, Jordan didn't have a perfect career. He failed multiple times before he started winning. Probably the two players who have had anything close to "perfect" careers are Bill Russell and Magic.

No, Jordan didn't have failures. He lost. They're two different things. Jordan never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series Lebron has had.

[lilgodfather1]

No, Jordan didn't have failures. He lost. They're two different things. Jordan never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series Lebron has had.
Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.

[Legends66NBA7]

No, Jordan didn't have failures. He lost. They're two different things. Jordan never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series Lebron has had.

Never ?

Come on... Jordan is a better playoff performer than LeBron , but to say he never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series like LeBron is a joke. Yes he did.

However, it's minimal and LeBron does have more worse series. That's the difference for me and there is achance LeBron might have another bad series in the playoffs, if not more.


Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time).

Jordan played 15 seasons... 6 of 15 and 7 of those years his team had a legit cast to win a title. That's an incredible conversion rate.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.

You continue to miss the point. Show me how many outright bad games and series Jordan had in the playoffs in his first 7-8 seasons. Now show me Lebron's. The lists will be quite different.

[Legends66NBA7]

You continue to miss the point. Show me how many outright bad games and series Jordan had in the playoffs in his first 7-8 seasons. Now show me Lebron's. The lists will be quite different.

I agree with this, but you can't say Jordan 'never' had bad/poor game or series like you did in your previous post.

[Money 23]

This. Jordan pretty much had a perfect career. Of course, at the beginning his team wasn't good enough but the statistical dominance, 6 rings and 6 FMVPs (in addition to the global impact he had on basketball) will be very difficult to overcome.
Exactly.

Plus his career has the built in mystique of like say a Barry Sanders. Guy retired just a 1,000 or so yards from the all-time rushing title. Which for him was a little less than one full season. He walked away that close to it, and it took Emmitt Smith extra years to pass it, and with a much better offensive line.

By walking away that close, he will forever be attached to the award, while never actually holding it. He walked away at the right time to retain a mystique, to be a legend. Everyone will always comment on how he could've got it if he wanted it.

Same goes for MJ. The man was the UNDISPUTED best player in basketball from '89 - '98. Actually should've been the MVP award winner in '89, '90, '93, and '97.

The man walked away from the sport at the pinnacle of his dominance of it, where he had an unquestionable strangle hold on the throne. Left after just 8 seasons, after a three peat, became a living legend ... got a statue REAL QUICK. His play, his entertainment value bought the city of Chicago alone a new stadium.

He left two years of his absolute peak / prime in limbo, by essentially being gone for two full seasons, which add even more mystique to his legend.

We could assume (and it is very probable) that there would've been MVPs, Championships, Finals MVPs, All NBA 1st Teams, Scoring Titles, All NBA 1st Team Defense, Steals Leader, etc. added to his already stud like resume.

He could've REALISTICALLY been the first alpha dog superstar since the Russell / Cousy Celtics to lead a team to 4x straight championships. A feat unheard of ... and still yet to be duplicated.

If he played in '94 and the full season of '95, his career point totals would have him sitting pretty near the top next to Kareem, or above him. Along with probable addittional MVPs.

His career as it stands is the best, and then you throw in the missing years of his prime / peak, and even the years of his twilight (1999, 2000, and 2001) and you have a career resume that will never be duplicated.

If he played for the Bulls in '99, 2000, and 2001 ... given his averages in '98 as a 35 year old (28 ppg), add in residual regression. I say in '99 he averages 27 ppg, 2000 he averages 26 ppg, and in 2001 averages 25 ppg.

And mind you, in 2002 as a 39 year old and before that devastating knee injury he was putting up 25 / 5 / 5 ... so these numbers aren't asinine or pulled from the anus.

And don't give me the Kobe stan response of he wouldn't have been able to hold up. MJ was more durable than Kobe. As durable as current LeBron, and only had two major injuries in his career. One a freak accident as a young man, and another a knee injury as an old as dirt man in a young man's game.

With those years he's EASILY the all-time leader in scoring. So as it stands his current resume is GOAT, then throw in the mystique of PROBABLE hypotheticals and it isn't even CLOSE.

Guy already should've had like 7 or 8 MVPs, then include the '94 and '95 seasons. Maybe add 2 - 3 rings to his total, an MVP or two and then the addition of the twilight years where he'd no longer be the best in the league, but still ELITE and putting up big numbers compared to league averages. It's borderline INSANE how great this man was. His athleticism dominated the league, his skill dominated the league, his will power dominated the league, and his intelligence dominated the league.

:biggums:

He re-invented himself and re-molded his game, time and time again to stay relevant, and dominant. There will be no one like this man ever again, and as great as LeBron is ... he doesn't have a lot of the stuff MJ had in his overall arsenal. And I absolutely feel LeBron is the greatest player SINCE MJ. Yes, even better than Shaq / Duncan / KG / Kobe / Wade.


Duncan and Kobe have no chance to be better than MJ. Their prime just wasn't anywhere near as dominant.
That too. No one's prime / peak touches MJs. His prime arguably lasted from '89 - '98. Almost a full decade. And if he played, I'm pretty sure he still would've been the best player in the game in the lock out shortened 1999 season as well.

[ripthekik]

Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.
Lebron didn't just lose though.. he lost in an embarassing, choking manner. He definitely lowered his case with those performances.

[QUOTE]Charles Barkley- post-"The Decision"
He

[lilgodfather1]

Never ?

Come on... Jordan is a better playoff performer than LeBron , but to say he never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series like LeBron is a joke. Yes he did.

However, it's minimal and LeBron does have more worse series. That's the difference for me and there is achance LeBron might have another bad series in the playoffs, if not more.



Jordan played 15 seasons... 6 of 15 and 7 of those years his team had a legit cast to win a title. That's an incredible conversion rate.
LeBron's played in 9, and two years of those had a legitimate cast to win, with another two seasons being arguable.

I'm not trying to say LeBron is better than Jordan, but I just find it laughable when people dismiss the chance that he can surpass Jordan. For all we know the Heat rip off 5 or 6 in a row with LeBron winning 5 or 6 MVP awards in a row. We just can't know at this point in time. Sit back, relax, and enjoy what we have in front of our eyes now what is in our minds.

Edit: Instead of what is in our minds.

[tmacattack33]

Lebron didn't just lose though.. he lost in an embarassing, choking manner. He definitely lowered his case with those performances.




What's ridiculous is in support of this argument that Lebron had more bad playoff performances than MJ, you will probably include Lebron's Finals against the Spurs as a terrible performance, when he was 22.

And Michael Jordan did not play in a playoff game beyond the first round until he was 25.

So you get to use Lebron's performances when was young in this, yet we can't do the same to MJ.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What's ridiculous is in support of this argument that Lebron had more bad playoff performances than MJ, you will probably include Lebron's Finals against the Spurs as a terrible performance, when he was 22.

And Michael Jordan did not play in a playoff game beyond the first round until he was 25.

So you get to use Lebron's performances when was young in this, yet we can't do the same to MJ.

Another person missing the point. Yes, you CAN use MJ's early playoff series. He lost, but he never had truly poor series or as many bad games/blunders as Lebron has had. Give me a break. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

I agree with this, but you can't say Jordan 'never' had bad/poor game or series like you did in your previous post.

In his first 7-8 seasons he actually didn't have a poor series - nowhere near as poor as Lebron has had.

[longtime lurker]

Sure he can surpass MJ but he'll have to win 7 titles to be in the conversation. But MJ stans need to stop acting like he was some infallible God, the man lost and there are other greats that can be argued for the GOAT title.

[Legends66NBA7]

In his first 7-8 seasons he actually didn't have a poor series - nowhere near as poor as Lebron has had.

Their were few that weren't Jordan standards, but again, I've already acknowledged LeBron's had worse.

[TaLvsCuaL]

Charles some times talks too much.

[Money 23]

Their were few that weren't Jordan standards, but again, I've already acknowledged LeBron's had worse.
Jordan did not underperform for entire series the way LeBron did ... that is fact.

I mean, even in what was for awhile LeBron's most iconic moment in the playoffs, his 48 special game v.s. Detroit in his 4th season. Few people remember outside of that one game, he played terrible the entire series.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Loki,

Do you feel LeBron is the best player SINCE MJ, though?

Shaq, then probably Lebron.

[Legends66NBA7]

Jordan did not underperform for entire series the way LeBron did ... that is fact.

Yes, I can role with that actually.


I mean, even in what was for awhile LeBron's most iconic moment in the playoffs, his 48 special game v.s. Detroit in his 4th season. Few people remember outside of that one game, he played terrible the entire series.

I think you can say the same with his 2008 performance vs the Celtics. Outside his game 7 45 point showdown vs Pierce's 41, not much to talk about... The poster on Garnett was epic though.

[Young X]

I'll never understand how Lebron supposedly has seperated himself as a player from Dwyane Wade, much less Michael Jordan. Other than MVP's what has Lebron done that Wade hasn't? Even when Lebron won his first two MVP's, Wade was 3rd and 5th in MVP voting.

[Jacks3]

he'll never surpass jordan because he'll never be as good as jordan was from 89-93.

he came pretty close in 09 and 2010 though.

[RaininTwos]

Lebron can be be better, that's not preposterous of Charles to say.

[LeBird]

Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now; it's just a matter of winning and being incredibly consistent. I don't foresee him being the clear GOAT though. I think such a player will be a 1 in 10 billion type deal. Even if he does win 6-7 titles, 6-7 MVPs, etc, it'll always be a debate.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now;

He is not better ability-wise, neither at the same age nor after the same number of years in the league. Please...:facepalm

[Money 23]

He is not better ability-wise, neither at the same age nor after the same number of years in the league. Please...:facepalm
Seriously. Off the ball offensive intelligence and ability to work off the ball / read defenses quicker has MJ at a super advantage.

[LakersReign]

LeBron's played in 9, and two years of those had a legitimate cast to win, with another two seasons being arguable.

I'm not trying to say LeBron is better than Jordan, but I just find it laughable when people dismiss the chance that he can surpass Jordan. For all we know the Heat rip off 5 or 6 in a row with LeBron winning 5 or 6 MVP awards in a row. We just can't know at this point in time. Sit back, relax, and enjoy what we have in front of our eyes now what is in our minds.

Edit: Instead of what is in our minds.

The FAKE Cavs fans said all that noise for 7 years. Give it a rest:rolleyes:

[Young X]

Current Lebron, ability wise is NOT on MJ's level. MJ has shown that he can rebound and make plays to the same degree as Lebron, Lebron has not shown that he can score with the same volume and efficiency of Jordan. Not to mention that MJ was better defensively and statistically was more dominant in the regular season and the playoffs. Lebron arguably isn't even better than Kobe or Wade, how is he supposed to be better than Michael Jeffrey Jordan? :facepalm

[westside_baller]

This is so stupid. Jordan played 13 seasons with the bulls. He missed 64 and 65 games in two of those seasons, however, so it's closer to 11 or 11 and a half with the bulls. He played 2 more seasons in washington at 38 and 39 years of age.

Jordan went to the finals in 6 of his 11 full seasons with the bulls. He made the finals and won the finals and won finals mvp in every one of his last 6 full seasons with the bulls.

LeBron has one ring in 9 full seasons.

It's not a detriment to lose in the finals, but Jordan never did. That's why Jordan is the GOAT and West isn't. Think about it.


Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.

[KOBE143]

Hey may surpass Jordan but at that time Kobe will already be the undisputed GOAT.. But I doubt LeBron surpass Mike tho.. LeBron is a top 15 player of all time at best..

I hate Chuck right now.. Before I like him when he said Kobe is top 5 player of all time but now that he said LeBron can be better than Mike :facepalm , he's the same as Pippen.. Both makes idiotic comments..

[LeBird]

He is not better ability-wise, neither at the same age nor after the same number of years in the league. Please...:facepalm

I think in terms of basketball skillset that Jordan is slightly ahead, but Lebron is a beast when it comes to the physical side of it. If you don't even think it's close then I'll have to learn not to take you seriously from now on.

[andgar923]

Bron has a chance to surpass MJ's accolades.

But what made MJ special wasn't that his personal resume, but HOW he did it.

[BoutPractice]

I think people underrate how much Jordan improved throughout his career. He wasn't always some basketball god, he was pretty flawed in the beginning of his career too...

[magnax1]

He'd have to improve dramatically quit quickly. He's just not very close in terms of ability right now. In a couple respects he is. In terms of rebounding and passing they're both similar, but overall Lebron just hasn't been as dominant as Jordan in his peak or prime so far. It's possible that he gets better, but I don't think he's ever going to get close to Jordan.

[pauk]

Lebron is not faster than Jordan.

From one end to the other at their absolute athletic peaks Lebron was probably the fastest player in the NBA.... yes, faster than MJ... his measured 4.4 (4.36 sec) 40 yard dash at the draft combine is no fluke.... to understand how fast that is take a look at the 40 yard dash world records http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash and those guys were between 5'9"-6'2"...


"Justin Gatlin, who ran 9.85 s for a gold medal at the 2004 Olympic 100 metres, before being banned from the sport for abuse of performance drugs, has a verified 40-yard dash best of 4.4 s"


Quickness/Agility Lebron is not best at, Jordan was probably quicker (darting here and there), weight/size has alot to do with... but if you want to drag race, Lebron would arguably kill anybody in NBA history... he has those freakishly athletic very long and super quick strides (see Usain Bolt to see what i mean).... there is a reason he chases down anybody in the NBA 24-7, even the likes of Derrick Rose...

[BlueandGold]

Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.


This is so stupid. Jordan played 13 seasons with the bulls. He missed 64 and 65 games in two of those seasons, however, so it's closer to 11 or 11 and a half with the bulls. He played 2 more seasons in washington at 38 and 39 years of age.

Jordan went to the finals in 6 of his 11 full seasons with the bulls. He made the finals and won the finals and won finals mvp in every one of his last 6 full seasons with the bulls.

LeBron has one ring in 9 full seasons.

It's not a detriment to lose in the finals, but Jordan never did. That's why Jordan is the GOAT and West isn't. Think about it.
lol owned.. sad that most people on ISH dont know crap about MJ other than random tidbits ESPN decides to show

[sekachu]

Lebron is not faster than Jordan.



Very plain analysis by barkley. Faster than MJ? :roll:

He forgot other factors like "mentality" and "skills"

[Asukal]

Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now; it's just a matter of winning and being incredibly consistent. I don't foresee him being the clear GOAT though. I think such a player will be a 1 in 10 billion type deal. Even if he does win 6-7 titles, 6-7 MVPs, etc, it'll always be a debate.

What part of Lebron's game is better than Jordan's to merit this statement? :confusedshrug:

When it comes to offense and defense, Jordan was better. Not by a staggering margin but still a clear gap. :confusedshrug:

[Magic 32]

I don’t understand why people are so flabbergasted by this ”overcorrection” by Chuck. He did the exact same thing with Kobe.

Go back to 04, 05, 06 and 07 on Inside the NBA and Charles was ripping Kobe a new one every week. Then he saw the 2010 Phoenix series up close - the next thing you know, he in his top 5 all time.

[ripthekik]

:roll: :roll:
these letards getting owned left and right


Jordan went to the finals in 6 of his 11 full seasons with the bulls. He made the finals and won the finals and won finals mvp in every one of his last 6 full seasons with the bulls.

LeBron has one ring in 9 full seasons.
game over.

[Poetry]

Love Barkley, but i think that weight-loss left him lightheaded.

[ILLsmak]

Bron isn't above Kobe, Shaq, or Duncan at this point. Potentially, sure, but it'll be hard for me to put him above Shaq as a player unless he gets a lot of rings.

His stats are sexier than Shaqs, but Shaq had a larger impact.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Bron has a chance to surpass MJ's accolades.

But what made MJ special wasn't that his personal resume, but HOW he did it.

Disagree. Bron isn't going to win 6+ rings.

-Smak

[Da_Realist]

I don’t understand why people are so flabbergasted by this ”overcorrection” by Chuck. He did the exact same thing with Kobe.

Go back to 04, 05, 06 and 07 on Inside the NBA and Charles was ripping Kobe a new one every week. Then he saw the 2010 Phoenix series up close - the next thing you know, he in his top 5 all time.

This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."

Jordan was so good that... if Lebron becomes better (level of play, not accolades) EVERYONE will know it. Even people that won't want to admit it will have to. He's just not there right now. The NBA and it's television partners are selling the current NBA, not the NBA from 20 years ago. Around the Horn, PTI, Sports Reporters, Halftime shows all exist because arguments and teaser quotes are arranged behind the scenes. You can't get people to watch by saying the best has already happened, stay tuned anyway. How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?

[longtime lurker]

Bron isn't above Kobe, Shaq, or Duncan at this point. Potentially, sure, but it'll be hard for me to put him above Shaq as a player unless he gets a lot of rings.

His stats are sexier than Shaqs, but Shaq had a larger impact.

-Smak

This. Too many people are in a rush to annoint the King.

[pauk]

Lebron sure has potential and he is actually on decent pace compared to what Jordan had at his age, but we shall see.... only time will tell...

[Optimus Prime]

Barkley is an idiot. He used to be funny but now he actually takes himself seriously and comes across as ignorant more often than not.

MJ is the GOAT. Kobe will end up close but unless he wins like 2-3 more rings and passes MJ on the scoring list it's just not gonna happen.

LeBron? :facepalm :no:

:kobe:

[AceManIII]

This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."


^^This

Kobe will never be better than MJ

LeBron will never be better than MJ

[Dragonyeuw]

His stats are sexier than Shaqs, but Shaq had a larger impact.

-Smak

Shaq's peak/MVP years were 29/13/3/3/60% shooting. That's pretty damn sexy lol....

[julizaver]

It is silly - even the moderate and no biased Lakers fans (and over 30 years old) could tell you that Jordan was better than Kobe and Shaq was the best player during 01-03 three peat - although it is not Kobe fault that it happens during Shaq's prime. However As I wrote several times it is not fair to compare best players only by championships. The simple fact is that MJ was better than KB in amost every aspect at the game.

Lebron is awesome BUT i don't think he has MJ mentality. Maybe he can prove me wrong during the next 3-4 years, which will be defining for his career overall.
Thins year he was more determine and concentrated than previous years. He has the skills, the athletism, the first championship, second olympic gold.
Anyway the everlasting memores for me of him will be a playoff game with Pistons(considered the best defensive team at the time), while with CAVS, where he literally destroy the entire Pistons alone in the 4th quarter with several consecutive baskets, all of them power drives to the basket over 3-4 opposing players. In that sense it was the first time I thought that somebody could surpass Jordan (which I consider the best player from the time I starting watching basketball).

[funnystuff]

Bron has never been faster or quicker than MJ. Never.

As for strength? Bron is bigger, I don't know if he's STRONGER. People always comment on MJ's unusual strength for his size.

And it doesn't always come from sheer muscle mass, or size.
You're an idiot.

[unbreakable]

jordan is GOAT for many reasons and one of those is his incredible SKILL and TECHNIQUE which lebron lacks severely when compared to the great one

[guy]

How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?

Well for years he would say that about Kobe had no shot even though it was the popular thing to say. I completely disagree with him, but I'm not sure he's just saying it to say it.

[ihoopallday]

Lmao some of you guys are getting all defensive for no reason. Barkley's just trying to bring in ratings.

[Legends66NBA7]

Lmao some of you guys are getting all defensive for no reason. Barkley's just trying to bring in ratings.

Yeah, I sensed a mile away. I think a lot of people follow the game know that a lot of players are said to say some of these things for ratings. Not to say LeBron isn't off pace, but this a part of that hype and overrating, to an extent.

[Money 23]

Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.



MJ's career has the built in mystique of like say a Barry Sanders. Guy retired just a 1,000 or so yards from the all-time rushing title. Which for him was a little less than one full season. He walked away that close to it, and it took Emmitt Smith extra years to pass it, and with a much better offensive line.

By walking away that close, he will forever be attached to the award, while never actually holding it. He walked away at the right time to retain a mystique, to be a legend. Everyone will always comment on how he could've got it if he wanted it.

Same goes for MJ. The man was the UNDISPUTED best player in basketball from '89 - '98. Actually should've been the MVP award winner in '89, '90, '93, and '97.

The man walked away from the sport at the pinnacle of his dominance of it, where he had an unquestionable strangle hold on the throne. Left after just 8 seasons, after the first three peat in decades .. got a statue REAL QUICK outside of a stadium that his grosses got built for the city of Chicago.

He left two years of his absolute peak / prime on the table, which adds even more mystique to his legend.

We could assume (and it is very probable) that there would've been more MVPs, Championships, Finals MVPs, All NBA 1st Teams, Scoring Titles, All NBA 1st Team Defense, Steals Leader, etc. added to his already STUD like resume.

He could've REALISTICALLY been the first alpha dog superstar since the Russell / Cousy Celtics to lead a team to 4x straight championships in 1994. A feat unheard of ... and still yet to be duplicated.

If he played in '94 and the full season of '95, his career point totals would have him sitting pretty near the top next to Kareem, or above him. Along with probable addittional MVPs.

His career as it stands is the best, and then you throw in the missing years of his prime / peak, and even the years of his twilight (1999, 2000, and 2001) and you have a career resume that will never be duplicated.

If he played for the Bulls in '99, 2000, and 2001 ... given his averages in '98 as a 35 year old (28 ppg), add in residual regression. I say in '99 he averages 27 ppg, while also possibly winning another championship if the Bulls core was held together ... then in 2000 he averages 26 ppg, and in 2001 averages 25 ppg.

And mind you, in 2002 as a 39 year old and before that devastating knee injury he was putting up 25 / 5 / 5 ... so these numbers aren't asinine or pulled from the anus.

And don't give me the AlphaDog24 / eliteballer stan response of he wouldn't have been able to hold up. And that he got some magic rest trying to re-invent his body at 30 to work hard daily, trying to master ANOTHER professional sport.

MJ was more durable than Kobe ever has been. As durable as current LeBron, and only had two major injuries in his career. One a freak accident as a young man, and another a lingering knee injury on an old man's body, that just didn't allow him to recover.

With those years ('94, '95) and then twilight years ('99, '00, '01) he's EASILY the all-time leader in scoring. So as it stands his current resume is GOAT, then throw in the mystique of PROBABLE hypotheticals and it isn't even CLOSE.

Guy already should've had like 7 or 8 MVPs, then include the '94 and '95 seasons. Maybe add 2 - 3 rings to his total, bringing his ring count to 8 or 9 (depending if the Bulls stay together in '99) an MVP or two and then the addition of the twilight years where he'd no longer be the best in the league, but still ELITE and putting up big numbers compared to league averages. It's borderline INSANE how great this man was. His athleticism dominated the league, his skill dominated the league, his will power dominated the league, and his intelligence dominated the league.

:biggums:

He re-invented himself and re-molded his game, time and time again to stay relevant, and dominant. There will be no one like this man ever again, and as great as LeBron is ... he doesn't have a lot of the stuff MJ had in his overall arsenal. From a skills or intangibles perspective.

No one's prime / peak touches MJs. His prime arguably lasted from '89 - '98. Almost a full decade. And if he played, I'm pretty sure he still would've been the best player in the game in the lock out shortened 1999 season as well.

[AlphaWolf24]

Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.


- sons like a bunch of if' and but's....Those of us who actually watched MJ's whole career actually know his place.

- He was the greatest player of the 90's....and probably the greatest player at getting his own shot from anywhere he wanted.

was he the greatest scorer ever? - NO

was he the greatest shooter ever? - NO

was he the greatest defensive player ever? - NO

was he the greatest winner ever ever? - NO ( Not even close actually)

was he the most impactful player ever? - NO ( he actually impacted his teams win/loss column less then any of the top 10 players alltime)

was he the greatest dunker ever? - NO

was he the geratest passer ever? - NO

was he one of the most exciting players ever? - absolutley...and he moved alot of shoes.



but your tired rants about "MJ was the bestest GOAT ...he left 2 years on the table"....is just silly.

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.

heck...without Pippen( and Phil becoming the true greatest NBA coach ever)..he was real close to becoming a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.

[Dragonyeuw]

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.



So out of genuine interest, where would he fall on your personal all-time list? I recall you saying to me some time ago, that Bird shouldn't be over Kobe( can't recall if you said that about Magic). Above you say that Jordan wasn't better than Bird or Magic, which would mean you also feel Kobe is above Jordan. But I've never seen you outright declare that Kobe is better than Jordan, just in the same ballpark.

[AlphaWolf24]

So out of genuine interest, where would he fall on your personal all-time list? I recall you saying to me some time ago, that Bird shouldn't be over Kobe( can't recall if you said that about Magic). Above you say that Jordan wasn't better than Bird or Magic, which would mean you also feel Kobe is above Jordan. But I've never seen you outright declare that Kobe is better than Jordan, just in the same ballpark.


- cot damn...why do the Jordan Mouskateer's get all butthurt when anyone compares or says someone is better?

- I was replying to the silly post above me....Jordan is one of the greatest ever..."by acclamation ( majority opinion)" he is the greatest...but that's the only criteria someone could use......not a bunch of hypothetical "what if's"...or other made up stats......that's all I was saying.

- and once again...my personal alltime lists....does not include players I never watched ( live or followed)...only an idiot would try to rank players they never watched or followed closely.

I never watched Wilt , Russell , Oscar or West...trying to act like I know if they are better then _______ or __________ is silly..( just as I was trying to explain about the post above mine....Poster was trying to use silly criteria to justifyu MJ as bestest)

- From the players I did watch since the early 80's...he probably is Number 1...I could easily see why someone would put Magic ahead of him ( Magic simply impacted his teams more)...

and I don't think one could place Kobe above Jordan yet...but both are very similar players with very similar results...

[Dragonyeuw]

- cot damn...why do the Jordan Mouskateer's get all butthurt when anyone compares or says someone is better?

- I was replying to the silly post above me....Jordan is one of the greatest ever..."by acclamation ( majority opinion)" he is the greatest...but that's the only criteria someone could use......not a bunch of hypothetical "what if's"...or other made up stats......that's all I was saying.

- and once again...my personal alltime lists....does not include players I never watched ( live or followed)...only an idiot would try to rank players they never watched or followed closely.

I never watched Wilt , Russell , Oscar or West...trying to act like I know if they are better then _______ or __________ is silly..( just as I was trying to explain about the post above mine....Poster was trying to use silly criteria to justifyu MJ as bestest)

- From the players I did watch since the early 80's...he probably is Number 1...I could easily see why someone would put Magic ahead of him ( Magic simply impacted his teams more)...

and I don't think one could place Kobe above Jordan yet...but both are very similar players with very similar results...

Butthurt? What about my post implies I was offended by anything you said? I was simply curious about where he fell on your all-time ranking, taking into account various things you've said before. Why do you automatically go on the defensive? Fukk, didn't I say 'out of genuine interest'?

For the record, while I personally think Jordan is the best I've seen, I'm not one of those who thinks he's several cuts above guys like Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc. To me they're on the same plane. I don't look at Jordan as being in his own tier of greatness beyond those guys.

[ripthekik]

- sons like a bunch of if' and but's....Those of us who actually watched MJ's whole career actually know his place.

- He was the greatest player of the 90's....and probably the greatest player at getting his own shot from anywhere he wanted.

was he the greatest scorer ever? - NO

was he the greatest shooter ever? - NO

was he the greatest defensive player ever? - NO

was he the greatest winner ever ever? - NO ( Not even close actually)

was he the most impactful player ever? - NO ( he actually impacted his teams win/loss column less then any of the top 10 players alltime)

was he the greatest dunker ever? - NO

was he the geratest passer ever? - NO

was he one of the most exciting players ever? - absolutley...and he moved alot of shoes.



but your tired rants about "MJ was the bestest GOAT ...he left 2 years on the table"....is just silly.

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.

heck...without Pippen( and Phil becoming the true greatest NBA coach ever)..he was real close to becoming a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
ISH at its best :facepalm

That bolded part is going into that "Stupidest things said at ISH" thread

[baller562]

This is the thing that people do not realize.... Jordan had the complete package, both mental and physical.

On one hand, we have Kobe... who has Jordan's killer mentality, he wanted to kill his opponents and had the balls to put everything on his shoulders, basically go down shooting with no fear of failure. But he was never as physically gifted as Jordan, I'm not saying head to head... but in respect to their peers and eras. Jordan was probably quicker, jump higher, stronger, and bigger hands, etc. This is Kobe's limitation... he always tries to achieve more than he is capable off, hence the lower efficiency.

On the other hand we have Lebron, who is physical freak. I would say more of a freak than Jordan when he first came into the league. But what Lebron lacks is the all in the head... he has this fear of failure, it could be from the product of the world's expectations, but he genuinely cares to much about his perception, like getting the tape confiscated when he got dunked on? Are you kidding me, Jordan would of wanted to kill that guy instead of trying to hide the evidence. That might be the difference between old school and new school mentality... Basically the only thing that can stop Lebron from achieving GOAT status is himself, and usually that is the hardest to overcome. He already ruined himself in my eyes and many others by jumping ship in Cleveland. Tell yourself whatever you want, but that is a HUGE failure in my eyes... joining forces with other top players from your ERA, that is something someone as competitive as Jordan would NEVER DO.

My point is, when it comes to the OVERALL package... Jordan is untouchable..

[Money 23]

AlphaPup24 is so cute ...

Jordan not being better than Bird and Magic. That's too funny.

No need to even validate it.

[red1]

Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.
True story, MJ is the GOAT not because he was the best scorer, not because he is the most decorated, not because he is the most complete. MJ is the goat because he was the most consistent, managed to convince everyone watching in the 90s that he was unbeatable.

[LBJFTW]

Jordan isn't god. I'm pretty sure another player WILL pass him up at some point.

The odds of someone passing Jordan is like someone winning the 6 ball lottery twice.

[DJ Leon Smith]

It's funny how Kobe fans try to run down Jordan's achievements, and in doing so they actually push Kobe further down the "all-time great" rankings by exposing his short-comings.

P.S. Jordan never missed the playoffs in his prime, lost a NBA Finals game at home after being up 24 in the first half or lost a deciding NBA Finals game by 39 points. He also won his first title without an all-star teammate. Kobe fans, please rebut.

[Nevaeh]

This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."

Jordan was so good that... if Lebron becomes better (level of play, not accolades) EVERYONE will know it. Even people that won't want to admit it will have to. He's just not there right now. The NBA and it's television partners are selling the current NBA, not the NBA from 20 years ago. Around the Horn, PTI, Sports Reporters, Halftime shows all exist because arguments and teaser quotes are arranged behind the scenes. You can't get people to watch by saying the best has already happened, stay tuned anyway. How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?

These are great points Realist, but I also think the blame goes to these "Halftime Shows" for insisting on even comparing past players to current ones in the first place. You can't start a topic asking "Can Lebron or Durant ever match Larry Bird's legacy"?, have a panelist say "I believe Lebron's already past Bird's legacy". and not expect Bird fans to speak up about it.

These shows do this because they know it's a sure shot way to keep both old and new school fans interested in the game; old schoolers watching Lebron to see if he really does measure up to Bird, and new schoolers believing there's no way Bird can match what Lebron's currently doing. It's a "win-win" business (key word) for them.

[Legends66NBA7]

He also won his first title without an all-star teammate.

There's nothing to rebut about the Kobe statements and nobody with their head on straight think Kobe > Jordan...

But what's this about ? Yeah, Pippen wasn't an all-star that year. Doesn't mean he was any less of a player, nor does it mean he wasn't an all-star talent.

Pippen was better in 1991 than he was 1990, when he did make the all-star team. And the numbers back that up too. Besides, he could have been replaced on the team instead of Hersey Hawkins that year too when Bird got injured.

Also, clearly stepped his game more in the playoffs in 1991, puts up 22/9/6/2.5/1 on 50%. That's also better than Pippen's 1990 playoff run. So really, what if he didn't make the all-star team that year ? Doesn't make his contributions any less and doesn't make Pippen any less of a player.

I know your trying to get at the Kobe stans, but that point is way off when not looked into context.

[StateOfMind12]

Lebron is the only one that has any shot to surpass MJ, so if you want another GOAT, you better hope Lebron can do it cause I doubt anyone else will come close any time soon.

[DJ Leon Smith]

There's nothing to rebut about the Kobe statements and nobody with their head on straight think Kobe > Jordan...

But what's this about ? Yeah, Pippen wasn't an all-star that year. Doesn't mean he was any less of a player, nor does it mean he wasn't an all-star talent.

Pippen was better in 1991 than he was 1990, when he did make the all-star team. And the numbers back that up too. Besides, he could have been replaced on the team instead of Hersey Hawkins that year too when Bird got injured.

Also, clearly stepped his game more in the playoffs in 1991, puts up 22/9/6/2.5/1 on 50%. That's also better than Pippen's 1990 playoff run. So really, what if he didn't make the all-star team that year ? Doesn't make his contributions any less and doesn't make Pippen any less of a player.

I know your trying to get at the Kobe stans, but that point is way off when not looked into context.

I'm not trying to run down Pippen, he was one of my favorite players growing up. It's just interesting that this forum is one of the only places that tries to elevate Pippen to an elite first option in the attempt to belittle Jordan's accomplishments. And yes, he wasn't an all-star in the year the Bulls won their first title so technically Jordan won without an all-star teammate that year.

I like that you mentioned context though, do Kobe stans look at the context of Pippen's rookie/early career stats and his lack of leadership on teams he played on without Jordan as a teammate? No, they don't. They're the republicans of NBA fans.

[AlphaWolf24]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
ISH at its best :facepalm

That bolded part is going into that "Stupidest things said at ISH" thread


you must have never watched Nique in the mid 80's....Most fans thought Nique was better then MJ....or at least equals.

I remember still having arguements who was a better dunker/finisher in traffic..anything Jordan could do...Dominique could do..and Nique's Hawks looked to be a legit contenders ...meanwhile Jordan's teams looked lost.

anyone saying Jordan and Nique were not comparible from 84' - 89' are kidding themselves. ( or there are basketball illiterate kids who never saw Nique play)

[AlphaWolf24]

I'm not trying to run down Pippen, he was one of my favorite players growing up. It's just interesting that this forum is one of the only places that tries to elevate Pippen to an elite first option in the attempt to belittle Jordan's accomplishments. And yes, he wasn't an all-star in the year the Bulls won their first title so technically Jordan won without an all-star teammate that year.

I like that you mentioned context though, do Kobe stans look at the context of Pippen's rookie/early career stats and his lack of leadership on teams he played on without Jordan as a teammate? No, they don't. They're the republicans of NBA fans.


:confusedshrug: WTF?...he was on many great teams without MJ..and did a better job of leading the Bull's without Jordan...then vice versa.

:facepalm @ Bull's fans who degrade Pippen's leadership without MJ....but disregard Jordan horrible leadership without Pippen...:lol (just look at his time in Washington as the Vet leader)

sad

[Legends66NBA7]

I'm not trying to run down Pippen, he was one of my favorite players growing up. It's just interesting that this forum is one of the only places that tries to elevate Pippen to an elite first option in the attempt to belittle Jordan's accomplishments. And yes, he wasn't an all-star in the year the Bulls won their first title so technically Jordan won without an all-star teammate that year.

I like that you mentioned context though, do Kobe stans look at the context of Pippen's rookie/early career stats and his lack of leadership on teams he played on without Jordan as a teammate? No, they don't. They're the republicans of NBA fans.

Okay, fair enough. Like you said, technically, Jordan did win without an all-star teammate that year... that's if we don't actually put into context. My bad, it just kinda bugs me, since he was better than some players that did make the all-star team that year, regardless. I agree, people saying Pippen in an elite first option to be belittle Jordan's accomplishments don't have a proper argument to back it up. He will always be a great second option from both ends, not the undeserved propping up he gets.

Yeah, Kobe stans kinda miss out on the context part. I've also stated in the past that they were teammates before rookie Pippen that were playing better around that season and the playoffs (namely Charles Oakley), so it's dumb to say statements like "Jordan never got out of the first round with Pippen", when Oakley and arguably Horace Grant were better than Pippen that year.

[DJ Leon Smith]

you must have never watched Nique in the mid 80's....Most fans thought Nique was better then MJ....or at least equals.

No one thought that, ever.

Great forum you've got here Jeff.

[DJ Leon Smith]

:confusedshrug: WTF?...he was on many great teams without MJ..and did a better job of leading the Bull's without Jordan...then vice versa.

How many titles did Pippen win with Portland and Houston?

P.S. Learn how to use apostrophes. Or as you might say it, "apostrophe's".

[AlphaWolf24]

Okay, fair enough. Like you said, technically, Jordan did win without an all-star teammate that year... that's if we don't actually put into context. My bad, it just kinda bugs me, since he was better than some players that did make the all-star team that year, regardless. I agree, people saying Pippen in an elite first option to be belittle Jordan's accomplishments don't have a proper argument to back it up. He will always be a great second option from both ends, not the undeserved propping up he gets.

Yeah, Kobe stans kinda miss out on the context part. I've also stated in the past that they were teammates before rookie Pippen that were playing better around that season and the playoffs (namely Charles Oakley), so it's dumb to say that "Jordan never got out of the first round with Pippen", when Oakley and arguably Horace Grant were better than Pippen that year.


Honest question....did you even watch Pippen's Rookie season?

the man played great in the Post season...and was a much better post season player then Grant....in fact he was a starter putting up nearly double double's..and coming up huge against the Cavs.

sirously..did you watch him play?

[Nevaeh]

Lebron is the only one that has any shot to surpass MJ, so if you want another GOAT, you better hope Lebron can do it cause I doubt anyone else will come close any time soon.

Jordan swept all of his Finals appearances against direct peers. No old players in their twilight years, no young bucks who didn't know how to handle the big stage. Jordan didn't choke, he "stepped up" or at the very least, still made his presence known through all of his title runs.

Lebron went invisible in 2 Finals already during his career. Those things tend to affect a player's overall ranking in a GOAT discussion. He'll be "One of Greats", but GOAT is already too late for Lebron.

[AlphaWolf24]

How many titles did Pippen win with Portland and Houston?

P.S. Learn how to use apostrophes. Or as you might say it, "apostrophe's".


none...the same amount Jordan won without Pippen....

except Pippen's teams wern't stepping stone's...L'MAO'

back in my pocket's you goe's

[Legends66NBA7]

the man played great in the Post season...and was a much better post season player then Grant....in fact he was a starter putting up nearly double double's..and coming up huge against the Cavs.

Were just talking about the Cavs series in 1988 ?

Yes, Pippen started... 1 game... the last game of that series, which turned out great for the Bulls. Before that, he didn't have a game anywhere close to his game 5 or had no impact at all.

I never said Grant was better. I said it was arguable between them THAT year. Charles Oakley was better that series though.


sirously..did you watch him play?

Yes I did watch him play, he was one of my favourite players growing up.

[DJ Leon Smith]

none...the same amount Jordan won without Pippen....

except Pippen's teams wern't stepping stone's...L'MAO'

back in my pocket's you goe's

How many NBA Finals MVPs did Pippen win, with our without Jordan?

We can play this game all day. Keep digging that hole.

Also, how many NBA Finals games did Jordan lose at home after being up 24 points at half-time and how many NBA Finals deciding games did he lose by 39 points? You still haven't answered those questions.

Oh and how many times did Jordan miss the playoffs in his prime. Feel free to answer that one as well. I've got all day.

[AlphaWolf24]

How many NBA Finals MVPs did Pippen win, with our without Jordan?

We can play this game all day. Keep digging that hole.

Also, how many NBA Finals games did Jordan lose at home after being up 24 points at half-time and how many NBA Finals deciding games did he lose by 39 points? You still haven't answered those questions.

Oh and how many times did Jordan miss the playoffs in his prime. Feel free to answer that one as well. I've got all day.


how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?...what about vice versa?

How many playoff games did MJ win without Pippen?....what about vice versa?

how many times did MJ get swept in the first round without Pippen?...what about vice versa?

come at me bro.....I forgot more hoop destroying Brain cell's after double dribble marathons....then you will ever know.

we can do this all dey ( thumps chest)

[DJ Leon Smith]

how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?

How many playoff games did MJ win without Pippen?....what about vice versa?

how many times did MJ get swept in the first round without Pippen?...what about vice versa?

come at me bro.....I forgot more hoop destroying Brain cell's after double dribble marathons....then you will ever know.

we can do this all dey ( thumps chest)

You didn't answer one Kobe question.

I rest my case.

Jeff, the floor is yours.

P.S. "how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?" LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[StateOfMind12]

Jordan swept all of his Finals appearances against direct peers. No old players in their twilight years, no young bucks who didn't know how to handle the big stage. Jordan didn't choke, he "stepped up" or at the very least, still made his presence known through all of his title runs.

Lebron went invisible in 2 Finals already during his career. Those things tend to affect a player's overall ranking in a GOAT discussion. He'll be "One of Greats", but GOAT is already too late for Lebron.
See I don't understand this logic because since when was not making the Finals better than making the Finals?

I understand if you want to give Lebron a blackmark for his 2011 Finals but why his 2007 Finals?

Nobody expected him to go there and nobody really even expected him and his team to compete in that series. It is serious revisionist history to blame Lebron for his 2007 Finals loss.

Jordan's resume is practically perfect but my GOAT ranking is not based on resume/accomplishments. It is based on how good you are and Lebron could very well be better than MJ ever was.

[AlphaWolf24]

Were just talking about the Cavs series in 1988 ?

Yes, Pippen started... 1 game... the last game of that series, which turned out great for the Bulls. Before that, he didn't have a game anywhere close to his game 5 or had no impact at all.

I never said Grant was better. I said it was arguable between them THAT year. Charles Oakley was better that series though.



Yes I did watch him play, he was one of my favourite players growing up.


- he played Great in Games 4 and 5 ( the deciding game 5 he was the difference)..Game 4 he played 30 minutes and had 15 points 5rebs and 2 Blk's...

no impact ?...especially for a rook?..RUserial?

- he started all of the games vs the Pistons.

recap:

By the end of the season Pippen was good enough to start in the playoff's...and come up huge for the Bull's in the Game 5 vs the Cavs...to help get them past the first round...

for the first time in what ...like 18 seasons

[AlphaWolf24]

You didn't answer one Kobe question.

I rest my case.

Jeff, the floor is yours.

P.S. "how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?" LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


none....meanwhile Pippen made multiple all defensive teams without MJ...

The Bull's without Pippen and just MJ...were a horrible defensive team...and had no defensive presence what so ever.


(opens pocket)...get back son.

[jlip]

Jordan swept all of his Finals appearances against direct peers. No old players in their twilight years, no young bucks who didn't know how to handle the big stage. Jordan didn't choke, he "stepped up" or at the very least, still made his presence known through all of his title runs.

Lebron went invisible in 2 Finals already during his career. Those things tend to affect a player's overall ranking in a GOAT discussion. He'll be "One of Greats", but GOAT is already too late for Lebron.

OK...Lebron performed inexcusably horribly in the '11 Finals. We get that. But seriously are we going to hold his legacy responsible for losing in the '07 Finals in which he was literally the leader at the age of 22 of a team that few people outside of Cleveland even expected to get that far? Would his legacy be better if he had dominated the '07 ECF but lost there in order to maintain a good Finals win %?

[Nevaeh]

See I don't understand this logic because since when was not making the Finals better than making the Finals?

I understand if you want to give Lebron a blackmark for his 2011 Finals but why his 2007 Finals?

Nobody expected him to go there and nobody really even expected him and his team to compete in that series. It is serious revisionist history to blame Lebron for his 2007 Finals loss.

Jordan's resume is practically perfect but my GOAT ranking is not based on resume/accomplishments. It is based on how good you are and Lebron could very well be better than MJ ever was.

Dude, it's not just about losing in the Finals, but it's how he lost in the Finals. He should have went out with guns blazing, being more assertive and treating each Finals appearance as if he would never get back to that level again. Did you see the numbers Durant and Westbrook were putting up in the Finals? They were young players like Lebron once was, but you can tell they were at least "fighting".


Jordan, even in rounds where he didn't make it to the Finals, fought tooth and nails to at least try to get there. That's the difference. When he did get there, Jordan didn't f@ck around or become an almost invisible Role Player when his team needed him the most.

You said GOAT in that first post. I responded with what I think separates "Great" from "GOAT".

[AlphaWolf24]

See I don't understand this logic because since when was not making the Finals better than making the Finals?

I understand if you want to give Lebron a blackmark for his 2011 Finals but why his 2007 Finals?

Nobody expected him to go there and nobody really even expected him and his team to compete in that series. It is serious revisionist history to blame Lebron for his 2007 Finals loss.

Jordan's resume is practically perfect but my GOAT ranking is not based on resume/accomplishments. It is based on how good you are and Lebron could very well be better than MJ ever was.


yeah I never understood Jordan stan logic when it comes to this...

Lebron leads his team to the Finals at 22 years old....but loses
Jordan leads his team to a Losing record.....and gets swept

Jordan stan logic = that means Jordan is better because he never lost in the Finals..:hammerhead:

[AlphaWolf24]

Dude, it's not just about losing in the Finals, but it's how he lost in the Finals. He should have went out with guns blazing, being more assertive and treating each Finals appearance as if he would never get back to that level again. Did you see the numbers Durant and Westbrook were putting up in the Finals? They were young players like Lebron once was, but you can tell they were at least "fighting".


Jordan, even in rounds where he didn't make it to the Finals, fought tooth and nails to at least try to get there. That's the difference. When he did get there, Jordan didn't **** around or become an almost invisible Role Player when his team needed him the most.

You said GOAT in that first post. I responded with what I think separates "Great" from "GOAT".


so what about disappearing vs the Celtics...and only scoring 4 points in the 2nd half of the deciding game 3??..or quitting against the Pistons in 88' ad 89'..

serously 18 points in 36 minutes of a deciding game....and yet Jordan stans call Lebron Passive?

[Legends66NBA7]

- he played Great in Games 4 and 5 ( the deciding game 5 he was the difference)..Game 4 he played 30 minutes and had 15 points 5rebs and 2 Blk's...

no impact ?...especially for a rook?..RUserial?

- he started all of the games vs the Pistons.

recap:

By the end of the season Pippen was good enough to start in the playoff's...and come up huge for the Bull's in the Game 5 vs the Cavs...to help get them past the first round...

for the first time in what ...like 18 seasons

Dude, I was just talking about starting. Yes his Game 4 was good, but it wasn't Game 5. The Bulls made the adjustment. Look at the earlier games, like Game 1. No impact.

Who said Pippen didn't help them get past the first round ? I'm just saying Oakley played a bigger role.


OK...Lebron performed inexcusably horribly in the '11 Finals. We get that. But seriously are we going to hold his legacy responsible for losing in the '07 Finals in which he was literally the leader at the age of 22 of a team that few people outside of Cleveland even expected to get that far? Would his legacy be better if he had dominated the '07 ECF but lost there in order to maintain a good Finals win %?

LeBron didn't perform well at all for his standards that year in the Finals either. Legacy is hurt either way, can't down play it either way. He didn't play well outside of one Game in the ECF. IMO, LeBron's 2007 run is overrated.

[AlphaWolf24]

Dude, I was just talking about starting. Yes his Game 4 was good, but it wasn't Game 5. The Bulls made the adjustment. Look at the earlier games, like Game 1. No impact.

Who said Pippen didn't help them get past the first round ? I'm just saying Oakley played a bigger role.



LeBron didn't perform well at all for his standards that year in the Finals either. Legacy is hurt either way, can't down play it either way. He didn't play well outside of one Game in the ECF. IMO, LeBron's 2007 run is overrated.


so if Lebrons legacy is hurt for leading histeam t the Finals and Losing....does that mean Jordan's Legay should be severly damaged by leading his team to 38 win season and get swept in the first round?

getting swept should be a major negative vs losing in the Finals.

[Nevaeh]

OK...Lebron performed inexcusably horribly in the '11 Finals. We get that. But seriously are we going to hold his legacy responsible for losing in the '07 Finals in which he was literally the leader at the age of 22 of a team that few people outside of Cleveland even expected to get that far? Would his legacy be better if he had dominated the '07 ECF but lost there in order to maintain a good Finals win %?

See my 2nd post responding to StateOfMind12

[Legends66NBA7]

so if Lebrons legacy is hurt for leading histeam t the Finals and Losing....does that mean Jordan's Legay should be severly damaged by leading his team to 38 win season and get swept in the first round?

getting swept should be a major negative vs losing in the Finals.

Who said it wasn't a negative to Jordan ? :confusedshrug:

He wasn't perfect, but he played better overall in the playoffs and finals. Series by series.

[G-Funk]

Lebron 2007 Finals: 22/6/6 FG35% 3P20% FT 69% TO 6


Jordan Finals: 33/6/6 48%
Jordan Playoffs:33/6/6 49%
Jordan Career:33/6/6 49%

[ripthekik]

so if Lebrons legacy is hurt for leading histeam t the Finals and Losing....does that mean Jordan's Legay should be severly damaged by leading his team to 38 win season and get swept in the first round?

getting swept should be a major negative vs losing in the Finals.
The problem is standards.
Lebron was good enough to bring his team to the final, yet perform miserably when compared to his standards.

Jordan might have been swept in the first round, but that was all he could do with that team and he still played 100%.

That's why losing in the finals look bad. If you lose but play out of your mind, ok. If you get to the finals and you choke and lose... :rolleyes:

[bizil]

The thing that makes Bron scary is the fact that's he is 6'8 and 260 pounds. Bron can play and defend PG-PF and even some nights C. And Bron is a great defender with his size. Magic was never a great defender and his versatility was more due to the offensive end and the ability to grab boards. Bron in every way is EPIC in terms of versatility AND a freak athlete on top of it.

Bron in terms of great scorers is along with Big O the most willing passer of the bunch. MJ was a great passer in his own regard. But Bron has a sixth sense with his passing ability. Bron isn't the killer MJ is scoring, but Bron is still third in career scoring average in NBA history! Which means Bron is still CLEARLY an alpha dog. If Bron was the level of alpha dog that MJ was, then he would be CLEARLY better than MJ right now peak value wise. But the MAIN LIST is GOAT. That list supercedes peak value all day every day. And to top MJ GOAT wise is a huge undertaking. It's like trying to top Ali in boxing or Ruth in baseball.

Even pro wrestling wise as great as Austin and Rock were, Hogan is still regarded by most as GOAT. Peak value is one thing, but GOAT dictates your legacy. I'm inclined to argue big guys like Wilt or Kareem over MJ GOAT wise instead of perimeter guys. But Bron still has a shot if he gets his resume up to par. Bron will most likely put up INSANE career numbers of like 30,000+ points and 10,000+ assists. Something that NOBODY has come close to doing.

[LeBird]

What part of Lebron's game is better than Jordan's to merit this statement? :confusedshrug:

When it comes to offense and defense, Jordan was better. Not by a staggering margin but still a clear gap. :confusedshrug:

Not really, not anymore. Every facet of their game is comparable now. Lebron is probably even more gifted, now, defensively in that he can guard more/bigger players. He can play almost any role, offensively and defensively, in one package, better than any player in NBA history; and do it to such a standard as to be comparable to the guys who do it as specialists. The guy is a freak. It's one thing to still consider Jordan superior; it's another thing to dismiss the comparison out of hand. The former is fair enough, the latter is idiocy and hero-worship blocking rationality.


This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."

Jordan was so good that... if Lebron becomes better (level of play, not accolades) EVERYONE will know it. Even people that won't want to admit it will have to. He's just not there right now. The NBA and it's television partners are selling the current NBA, not the NBA from 20 years ago. Around the Horn, PTI, Sports Reporters, Halftime shows all exist because arguments and teaser quotes are arranged behind the scenes. You can't get people to watch by saying the best has already happened, stay tuned anyway. How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?

The same thing happened when Jordan was playing and Bird/Magic left. And I am sure Bird/Magic favoured from when Wilt, etc, left and so on. It's nothing new.

It's not that everyone will know when Lebron is better unanimously as if it's some universal truth that we'll all see at the same time...it's that Jordan's legacy has become such a myth that the only thing that will shake that is someone being so much better than Jordan that it'll be undeniable.

[pauk]

lol @ the half-baked posters trying to diminish the fact of Lebron putting on some of the best performances in playoff history in order to carry his team to franchises first Finals (which was probably the worst team to ever be in a Finals).. just because he lost there.. and he was also 21-22....

Thats like cursing out the VW Golf driver for coming 2nd in a Formula 1 race...

[TheMan]

You're a ****ing idiot if you don't think LeBron can pass Jordan.

Also, I love Open Court. Gonna DVR this whole season. good lookin out OP.
Pass him on what? More titles? 6-1 and LBJ is heading into his tenth season. Needs a whole lot of titles to catch MJ. MJ has 4 seasons were he scored a lot more with better efficiency. What exactly must LBJ do to pass MJ?

[TheMan]

Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now; it's just a matter of winning and being incredibly consistent. I don't foresee him being the clear GOAT though. I think such a player will be a 1 in 10 billion type deal. Even if he does win 6-7 titles, 6-7 MVPs, etc, it'll always be a debate.
:facepalm

[TheMan]

you must have never watched Nique in the mid 80's....Most fans thought Nique was better then MJ....or at least equals.

I remember still having arguements who was a better dunker/finisher in traffic..anything Jordan could do...Dominique could do..and Nique's Hawks looked to be a legit contenders ...meanwhile Jordan's teams looked lost.

anyone saying Jordan and Nique were not comparible from 84' - 89' are kidding themselves. ( or there are basketball illiterate kids who never saw Nique play)
Bullshit, MJ was already being compared to all-time grats by 89, up there with Bird and Magic, no serious basketball fan thought Nique, as great as he was, was on the level of MJ, Magic or Bird.

[rodman91]

How? he is already in prime.

[Mach_3]

Barkley thinks Lebron is faster than Jordan?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Tell that nicca to stop drinking seriously

[Indian guy]

Barkley thinks Lebron is faster than Jordan?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Tell that nicca to stop drinking seriously

Huh? What's this stupidity? LeBron has a legit claim to being faster than MJ.

[Mach_3]

Huh? What's this stupidity? LeBron has a legit claim to being faster than MJ.


No he doesn't. That's like saying prime Tony Parker is faster than Rose. I can certainly make the case, but to anyone with eyes who watched both players knows for damn sure that it aint true

And did someone just say Bron ability wise is better than Jordan? I'd love to hear the reasoning for that :lol

[Young X]

lol @ the half-baked posters trying to diminish the fact of Lebron putting on some of the best performances in playoff history in order to carry his team to franchises first Finals (which was probably the worst team to ever be in a Finals).. just because he lost there.. and he was also 21-22....

Thats like cursing out the VW Golf driver for coming 2nd in a Formula 1 race...
No ones criticizing Lebron for the Cavs losing to the Spurs, they're criticizing him because he played HORRIBLE, and since we're comparing him to Jordan, that series being far worse than any of Jordan's series should be brought up.

[Indian guy]

but to anyone with eyes who watched both players knows for damn sure that it aint true

Right. I think my combined knowledge on both players is probably more extensive than anyone else in here. LeBron is(or was from 04-10) ridiculously fast. His end-to-end speed amongst guys around his size(6'6-6'8) is probably 2nd to none in NBA history. Just check out this drive from last season - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAVODrTa5Vo. He basically goes coast-to-coast in less than 3 seconds.

[westside_baller]

Right. I think my combined knowledge on both players is probably more extensive than anyone else in here. LeBron is(or was from 04-10) ridiculously fast. His end-to-end speed amongst guys around his size(6'6-6'8) is probably 2nd to none in NBA history. Just check out this drive from last season - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAVODrTa5Vo. He basically goes coast-to-coast in less than 3 seconds.

LeBron has fantastic speed, especially when you factor in his size. But he'll never match Jordan's career accomplishments. In fact, it's difficult to make the case that LeBron is or ever will be better than Bird.

edit: Bird was the

-superior midrange shooter,

-superior 3 pt. shooter,

-superior free throw shooter,

-superior clutch shooter,

-superior overall field goal percentage,

-vastly superior rebounder,

-equal in steals per game, and

-just as good a passer if not better

-equal as a shot blocker.

LeBron is faster, jumps higher and is stronger. This grants him no edge in basketball ability, except in one on one defense, where LeBron has a definite edge. However, Bird had excellent anticipation and was very disruptive in playing the passing lanes. As stated, Bird and LeBron had similar totals in blocks.

[bdreason]

LeBron has a long ways before he even get mentioned in the same sentence as MJ... but I have to say, that LeBron's ability to completely dominate a game from a perimeter position is something I haven't seen since MJ. If LeBron has turned the corner mentally, and is able to embrace clutch moments instead of running from them... he has a chance to approach MJ's professional legacy. He will still never approach MJ's true legacy though, because MJ took the game global, and that can never be replicated.

[AlphaWolf24]

Bullshit, MJ was already being compared to all-time grats by 89, up there with Bird and Magic, no serious basketball fan thought Nique, as great as he was, was on the level of MJ, Magic or Bird.


this idiot..

in 89' absolutley Nique was on MJ's level...

I'm sorry you missed watching Nique in his prime...he was everything Jordan was....and his teams did much better then Jordans

89' Jordan was not at Bird or Magic's level....was he bieng compared?...sure.

Just as we compare Dirk to Bird or Lebron to Magic....but he was not at that level yet.

[tmacattack33]

LeBron has fantastic speed, especially when you factor in his size. But he'll never match Jordan's career accomplishments. In fact, it's difficult to make the case that LeBron is or ever will be better than Bird.

edit: Bird was the

-superior midrange shooter,

-superior 3 pt. shooter,

-superior free throw shooter,

-superior clutch shooter,

-superior overall field goal percentage,

-vastly superior rebounder,

-equal in steals per game, and

-just as good a passer if not better

-equal as a shot blocker.

LeBron is faster, jumps higher and is stronger. This grants him no edge in basketball ability, except in one on one defense, where LeBron has a definite edge. However, Bird had excellent anticipation and was very disruptive in playing the passing lanes. As stated, Bird and LeBron had similar totals in blocks.

You listed shooting categories four times there.

I can do the same...

Lebron is more athletic...

and...

Quicker

Faster

More agile

Better lateral quickness

Faster first step

[Money 23]

Lebron is more athletic...

and...

Quicker

Faster

More agile

Better lateral quickness

Faster first step
:biggums:

Not even close.

[Roundball_Rock]

What is with this absurd notion on the part of MJ fans that he was some demigod who no player can even be compared to? If Lebron gets to 4-5 rings the conversation will begin just as it did when Jordan won his third, even though practically every other GOAT candidate had as many or more rings.

At age 27 Jordan had reached 1 NBA finals, 3 ECF's, won 1 championship and 2 MVP's. Jordan recorded three consecutive losing seasons to open his career, went 1-9 in the playoffs during that time. MJ didn't get out the first round until his fourth season, didn't reach the ECF until his fifth and the NBA finals until his 7th year.

At age 27 Lebron has reached 2 NBA finals, 3 ECF's, won 2 championships and 3 MVP's. Lebron has only had one losing record in his career (Jordan had 5 losing seasons--far more than any GOAT candidate), his rookie year when he was 19 and that was on a team that won 17 games the previous year. He lifted them 18 games (Jordan's team only improved from 27 to 38 wins as a rookie, easily the smallest improvement of any GOAT candidate) as a 19 year old rookie. He reached the second round in his third season and the NBA finals in his fourth.

[westside_baller]

False. Jordan is not a demigod, but he is the GOAT.

You also forgot to mention that Jordan had a p--- poor squad with a deer in the headlights Pippen, Cartwright who was about as effective as roadkill, and basically a ton of middle tier role players.

MJ was playing against stacked Pistons, Celtics and Sixers squads while LeBron was "contending" against an absurdly non competitive Eastern Conference. Not to mention the fact that Jordan was subject to "Jordan Rules," meaning he was clotheslined and tackled by every frontline player and grabbed around the neck and face by the guards on the pistons.

There is absolutely no resemblance between the EC of the NBA then and now, either in terms of the competition or in terms of the physicality of the defenses played.

Fail.


What is with this absurd notion on the part of MJ fans that he was some demigod who no player can even be compared to? If Lebron gets to 4-5 rings the conversation will begin just as it did when Jordan won his third, even though practically every other GOAT candidate had as many or more rings.

At age 27 Jordan had reached 1 NBA finals, 3 ECF's, won 1 championship and 2 MVP's. Jordan recorded three consecutive losing seasons to open his career, went 1-9 in the playoffs during that time. MJ didn't get out the first round until his fourth season, didn't reach the ECF until his fifth and the NBA finals until his 7th year.

At age 27 Lebron has reached 2 NBA finals, 3 ECF's, won 2 championships and 3 MVP's. Lebron has only had one losing record in his career (Jordan had 5 losing seasons--far more than any GOAT candidate), his rookie year when he was 19 and that was on a team that won 17 games the previous year. He lifted them 18 games (Jordan's team only improved from 27 to 38 wins as a rookie, easily the smallest improvement of any GOAT candidate) as a 19 year old rookie. He reached the second round in his third season and the NBA finals in his fourth.

[Young X]

At age 27 Lebron has reached 2 NBA finals, 3 ECF's, won 2 championships and 3 MVP's. Lebron has only had one losing record in his career (Jordan had 5 losing seasons--far more than any GOAT candidate), his rookie year when he was 19 and that was on a team that won 17 games the previous year. He lifted them 18 games (Jordan's team only improved from 27 to 38 wins as a rookie, easily the smallest improvement of any GOAT candidate) as a 19 year old rookie. He reached the second round in his third season and the NBA finals in his fourth.
When will people stop spreading this myth?

- Jordan missed 64 games in 1986, in the 18 games that he played the Bulls went 9-9. Jordan missed 22 games in 2002, in the 60 games that he played the Wizards went 30-30. SMH @ this hating ass n*gga.

[Roundball_Rock]

One of the biggest differences between the two that is in Lebron's favor is what they could do with a weak team. Lebron took scrubs to the NBA finals, had the best record in the NBA twice with scrubs. For Jordan all we see are excuses for losing in the first round three years in a row (1-9 in the playoffs) and he barely got out of the first round in year four in the final game of the series (not coincidentally Scottie Pippen's first career start where he had a very good game).

The quitting argument is amusing. Jordan literally quit two days before training camp in 1994, forcing his team to find a scrub from the Italian league to replace him on that short notice. Imagine if he left in a timely manner and they had a legitimate starter with a team that nearly won the East's top seed even with Pete Myers as SG...The biggest fact regarding quitting between the two is Jordan walked away from basketball for five seasons. Lebron simply will have more time to accumulate achievements due to coming out of high school and not retiring twice.

Let's recap them at 27:

Rings: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
NBA finals: Lebron 2, Jordan 1
ECF's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
DPOY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-NBA first teams: Lebron 6, Jordan 5

That is technically true in a sense but going 0.500 twice and having three outright losing seasons is still not something to boast about. Lebron has only had one season at .500 and below and that was when he was 19. Does anyone see Jordan winning 66 games with scrubs in Cleveland?

[ihoopallday]

One of the biggest differences between the two that is in Lebron's favor is what they could do with a weak team. Lebron took scrubs to the NBA finals, had the best record in the NBA twice with scrubs. For Jordan all we see are excuses for losing in the first round three years in a row (1-9 in the playoffs) and he barely got out of the first round in year four in the final game of the series (not coincidentally Scottie Pippen's first career start where he had a very good game).

The quitting argument is amusing. Jordan literally quit two days before training camp in 1994, forcing his team to find a scrub from the Italian league to replace him on that short notice. Imagine if he left in a timely manner and they had a legitimate starter with a team that nearly won the East's top seed even with Pete Myers as SG...The biggest fact regarding quitting between the two is Jordan walked away from basketball for five seasons. Lebron simply will have more time to accumulate achievements due to coming out of high school and not retiring twice.

Let's recap them at 27:

Rings: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
NBA finals: Lebron 2, Jordan 1
ECF's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
DPOY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-NBA first teams: Lebron 6, Jordan 5

That is technically true in a sense but going 0.500 twice and having three outright losing seasons is still not something to boast about. Lebron has only had one season at .500 and below and that was when he was 19. Does anyone see Jordan winning 66 games with scrubs in Cleveland?

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[bagelred]

Wasn't it a year ago that Lebron was one of the biggest chokers of all time? And one year later, he's better than Jordan. :facepalm

Now, he has the PHYSICAL tools and ability to BE better than Jordan. Lebron can do things Jordan cannot. Lebron has probably the best combination of speed, strength, size, and ability in the history of the game. That still doesn't mean he's better........Dwyane Wade is superior to MJ physically as well. Wade and Lebron just have unbelievable superior physical gifts. MJ didn't have that.

Put it this way. When I watched MJ play, it just FELT like I was watching the best ever. You just know it.

[RRR3]

Wasn't it a year ago that Lebron was one of the biggest chokers of all time? And one year later, he's better than Jordan. :facepalm

Now, he has the PHYSICAL tools and ability to BE better than Jordan. Lebron can do things Jordan cannot. Lebron has probably the best combination of speed, strength, size, and ability in the history of the game. That still doesn't mean he's better........Dwyane Wade is superior to MJ physically as well. Wade and Lebron just have unbelievable superior physical gifts. MJ didn't have that.

Put it this way. When I watched MJ play, it just FELT like I was watching the best ever. You just know it.
http://data.whicdn.com/images/31904255/3895787_o_large.gif

[bagelred]

http://data.whicdn.com/images/31904255/3895787_o_large.gif

Gotta love gifs where I have no idea what its saying. Positive or negative? :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Gotta love gifs where I have no idea what its saying. Positive or negative? :confusedshrug:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb6al8NfiH1qla2myo1_500.gif

[ripthekik]

http://oi47.tinypic.com/20zr18y.jpg

This is the pic of RRR3.
sad, that thread turned him into a gif-only poster :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

Wasn't it a year ago that Lebron was one of the biggest chokers of all time? And one year later, he's better than Jordan. :facepalm

Now, he has the PHYSICAL tools and ability to BE better than Jordan. Lebron can do things Jordan cannot. Lebron has probably the best combination of speed, strength, size, and ability in the history of the game. That still doesn't mean he's better........Dwyane Wade is superior to MJ physically as well. Wade and Lebron just have unbelievable superior physical gifts. MJ didn't have that.

Put it this way. When I watched MJ play, it just FELT like I was watching the best ever. You just know it.

MJ didnt have superior physical gifts? :wtf:

[ripthekik]

One of the biggest differences between the two that is in Lebron's favor is what they could do with a weak team. Lebron took scrubs to the NBA finals, had the best record in the NBA twice with scrubs. For Jordan all we see are excuses for losing in the first round three years in a row (1-9 in the playoffs) and he barely got out of the first round in year four in the final game of the series (not coincidentally Scottie Pippen's first career start where he had a very good game).

The quitting argument is amusing. Jordan literally quit two days before training camp in 1994, forcing his team to find a scrub from the Italian league to replace him on that short notice. Imagine if he left in a timely manner and they had a legitimate starter with a team that nearly won the East's top seed even with Pete Myers as SG...The biggest fact regarding quitting between the two is Jordan walked away from basketball for five seasons. Lebron simply will have more time to accumulate achievements due to coming out of high school and not retiring twice.

Let's recap them at 27:

Rings: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
NBA finals: Lebron 2, Jordan 1
ECF's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
DPOY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-NBA first teams: Lebron 6, Jordan 5

That is technically true in a sense but going 0.500 twice and having three outright losing seasons is still not something to boast about. Lebron has only had one season at .500 and below and that was when he was 19. Does anyone see Jordan winning 66 games with scrubs in Cleveland?
How about you recap their achievements after 9 seasons?