Is Lance Armstrong the biggest cheater in sports of all time?

[DCL]

Lance Armstrong faces further allegations that he was at the center of a doping ring. (Reuters)

The United States Anti-Doping Agency has charged that Armstrong is the centerpiece of, in the agency's words, "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen."
Eleven former teammates of Armstrong's are among 26 people who provided sworn testimony that the seven-time Tour de France winner used performance-enhancing drugs, encouraged others to do so and helped maintain the secrecy of the program.

"The [United States Postal Service] Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices," the agency said in a press release. "A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today"

Armstrong has consistently denied ever using any form of illegal drugs in the course of his historic career.In August he quit his fight against USADA, saying via statement, 'There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, 'Enough is enough.' "

USADA assembled a thousand-plus-page paper trail of interviews, financial statements and lab results. Teammates interviewed included George Hincapie, Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis. The report, the agency contends, is "conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy."

Armstrong has not commented publicly on the report.His attorney sent a letter to USADA Tuesday which states that USADA acted as "prosecutor, judge, jury, appellate court and executioner."

The testimony is a devastating blow to the legacy of one of the most decorated athletes in all of sports. Armstrong won the Tour de France seven consecutive times and is a cancer survivor. The Lance Armstrong Foundation, through its LiveStrong outreach, has raised more than $325 million to spread awareness and assistance to victims of cancer through the sale of more than 72 million iconic yellow bracelets.

But Armstrong has also been the most visible face of a sport consistently tainted by allegations of doping. He had for years appeared to ride above the charges that brought down many of his fellow riders, including Landis and Hamilton. But as sporting agencies began to voice concerns about Armstrong, he fought back vigorously and consistently, contesting the sampling procedures, the handling of his samples and even the motivations and objectivity of the testing agencies.

USADA began to zero in on Armstrong in 2012. In June, the agency filed official charges of doping and drug trafficking, suspending him from competition in both cycling and triathlons. Two months later, after years of court action and public denials, Armstrong decided to stop his fight against USADA.

As a result, USADA served Armstrong with a lifetime band from sports that fall under its direction and indicated it will move to have Armstrong stripped of his seven Tour de France victories. UCI [International Cycling Union] will also have a say in the move to strip Armstrong of his titles. The Tour itself will wait for the UCI's verdict on the validity of the USADA's case.

Armstrong's problems aren't limited to the sporting arena. While a federal criminal investigation against Armstrong has been dropped, a Department of Justice investigation continues. Their question is whether Armstrong and his teammates fraudulently used taxpayer money in the form of U.S. Postal Service sponsorship dollars to perpetuate the illegal doping program.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

of ALL TIME

[DCL]

:oldlol:

[niko]

No because he cheated a shitload in a sport where everyone cheats. Like literally everyone. It's a prerequisite. It makes it less ridiculous to me than say baseball where Bonds looked like a super hero compared to 95% of his teammates.

[Sarcastic]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/gasper/0203belichick609.jpg

[daily]

No because he cheated a shitload in a sport where everyone cheats. Like literally everyone. It's a prerequisite. .End thread

[Godzuki]

considering Lance Armstrong was always praised for dominating a sport without having to cheat and just being a superior physical specimen all the while vehemently denying he cheated, he should be up there if the evidence is unquestionable. the problem is a lot of Americans will stick by him regardless of evidence. it seems many of them refuse to even entertain he cheated acting like they're just jealous and after him because he's American. and those people including probably many cancer patients will stay in his corner like kobe fanboys that don't want to admit any faults of their hero.

what annoys me are these public figures that deny to the very end, and they do it in a way where its so arrogant and sure of themselves they're innocent(like bonds). i despise those types of people IF they're really guilty in the end, since they're as much a liar as you could be in life. its just so insultingly dikkhead'sh of them to behave that way if they've been knowingly lying all along.

[tomtucker]

fukk the USADA.........lance is a hero for so many people around the world.......

[jbot]

don't know but as far as i can tell, there are a gagload of cyclists that cheat. he just happens to be the biggest cheater in that particular sport.

[DCL]

i kinda think being the biggest cheater is same as being the biggest fraud. and if all the accusations from his battalion of former teammates and close associates are true, lance armstrong is way up there in being the biggest fraud any sport has ever seen.

the guy won 7 tour de france titles and got all the highest glory to go with it. he fooled a lot of people. the level of deception also plays a role in being the biggest fraud because if huge sophisticated cover-ups are involved, that magnifies the cheating even more because it shows you're lying through your entire soul to claim that false glory, and few people got more glory than lance armstrong when he was winning.

lance armstrong received immense glory, so much, that some fans adored and placed him in almost a god-like level. they literally worshipped him. but if all that was a sham, then lance armstrong was an big-time fraud, deceiving all his fans. along with his beligerent denials and look-straight-at-your-eyes type of lying, no other athlete has ever come close to achieving so much through cheating, and lying with so much plotwork and planning. too bad he almost got away with it.

but now, he's got a fleet of teammates coming up and a mountain of evidences to break his fame. people like to call conspiracy, but the sh!t against him is just way too much.

[kNIOKAS]

He's Bill Clinton of our times, really.

[gigantes]

IMO the USADA and whoever else needs to make it clear to the public what the masking agents were and how they worked that enabled armstrong and all the rest to disguise their blood results for all those years.

armstrong is a hero and a legend-- if you're going to take him down, you sure as hell better not be half-assed about it. don't take him down for the sake of taking him down. take him down so you can totally clean up the sport.


meanwhile, barry bonds and others still walk around as fraudulent holders of lots of baseball records...

[Heavincent]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/gasper/0203belichick609.jpg

:applause:

[Is He Ill]

IMO the USADA and whoever else needs to make it clear to the public what the masking agents were and how they worked that enabled armstrong and all the rest to disguise their blood results for all those years.

armstrong is a hero and a legend-- if you're going to take him down, you sure as hell better not be half-assed about it. don't take him down for the sake of taking him down. take him down so you can totally clean up the sport.


meanwhile, barry bonds and others still walk around as fraudulent holders of lots of baseball records...

:applause:

[Rolando]

If you wanted to race with the big boys in Europe, you had to dope. That's the way it was and probably still is. Lance just ****ing dominated it through and through. He was the BOSS. Like a gangster, he ran the peloton and enforced the rules.

I hope he never comes clean. The ****ing piss-ants that ratted him out are bunch a frikken pu$$ies.

[yobore]

Definitely one of the tops.


No because he cheated a shitload in a sport where everyone cheats. Like literally everyone. It's a prerequisite. It makes it less ridiculous to me than say baseball where Bonds looked like a super hero compared to 95% of his teammates.
Sorry Armstrong is on another level. He not only cheated, but for over a decade he smeared any whistleblower and mocked clean riders. He successfully sued people for millions of dollars for calling him a doper years after it was common knowledge. Just read some of the stories of people who reported him doping, masseuse/journalists/trainers/teammates/teammates' wives/etc. there is something seriously wrong with him psychologically. I appreciate that he raised money for cancer but it doesn't change the fact that he's an a*shole who worked overtime to keep cycling dirty and enforce omerta. Cycling fans still have some form of respect for lots of the dopers. I was rooting for Vinokourov in the Olympics, but you won't find any cycling fan who actually follows the sport who can tolerate Armstrong after all the crap he has done.

[LJJ]

i kinda think being the biggest cheater is same as being the biggest fraud. and if all the accusations from his battalion of former teammates and close associates are true, lance armstrong is way up there in being the biggest fraud any sport has ever seen.

the guy won 7 tour de france titles and got all the highest glory to go with it. he fooled a lot of people. the level of deception also plays a role in being the biggest fraud because if huge sophisticated cover-ups are involved, that magnifies the cheating even more because it shows you're lying through your entire soul to claim that false glory, and few people got more glory than lance armstrong when he was winning.

lance armstrong received immense glory, so much, that some fans adored and placed him in almost a god-like level. they literally worshipped him. but if all that was a sham, then lance armstrong was an big-time fraud, deceiving all his fans. along with his beligerent denials and look-straight-at-your-eyes type of lying, no other athlete has ever come close to achieving so much through cheating, and lying with so much plotwork and planning. too bad he almost got away with it.

but now, he's got a fleet of teammates coming up and a mountain of evidences to break his fame. people like to call conspiracy, but the sh!t against him is just way too much.

The most damning factor to me is that Armstrong has always been the most vehement anti-doping guy of all the cyclists. Devious dude.

[Jasi]

The most damning factor to me is that Armstrong has always been the most vehement anti-doping guy of all the cyclists. Devious dude.

This.
To be honest this news is very bitter to me.
I liked the guy, he was one of the best stories in sports ever.
How disappointing. Damn!
One thing is knowing the freaking Ullrichs, Museuuws or Valverdes of this world are cheaters, another thing is Lance.

[B-Low]

http://wonkette.com/assets/resources/2007/11/ricflair.jpg

[DCL]

i have a feeling that even if there was a video tape of lance armstrong sticking a needle to his vein, his hardcore cult would probably still say that's not him in the video or that needle was for something else.

[Wally450]

Eddie Guerrero

[nightprowler10]

Not sure about the biggest, but it's definitely the one that hurts the most.

[outbreak]

I hate how he's acted in regards to doping. He didn't just deny it he hunted down people who reported it.
I don't like the way it looks like this is being handled though, it really seems to just be targeting him now rather then the whole sport. Most of his team mates who are testifying against him now all say that to compete in the sport you had to be doping. If everyone has this attitude surely you need to target the actual sport's bodies hardest not the competitors who have no option but dope to keep up?

This also makes me wonder how clean other sports are, I've read the NBA has the worst drug testing policies of all U.S sports, really wouldn't surprise me if there was large scale drug use in most major sports these days. The leagues have no incentive to clean up their sports anyway, more so to cover up rather then expose.

[code green]

Do people really think you can just cycle up the Alps at 40mph like it's nothing without PEDs or doping? Of course he doped, they're all doing that shit. Cycling's better with the cheats, who the hell wants to watch some old dudes huffing and puffing up those mountains naturally?

[plowking]

To be honest, hes just riding a bike. Who really cares?

[KevinNYC]

To be honest, hes just riding a bike. Who really cares?

Why does anyone care about any sport. I cared.


armstrong is a hero and a legend-- if you're going to take him down, you sure as hell better not be half-assed about it. don't take him down for the sake of taking him down. take him down so you can totally clean up the sport.

Have you read the news reports? I just did. Nothing half assed about it. Multiple teammates testified against him. The biggest names in American cycling were all in on it, and detailed how the whole scheme worked. The news articles make it clear, that if you were a young rider on the Postal team, you had to dope or lose your job because Armstrong felt you might be a weak link if you didn't dope.







It's all going to make an interesting movie one day.

[maybeshewill13]

Pretty big deal considering how much of a role model he has been made out to be for the past 5 years or so. He was meant to be the one everyone looked up to. He was amazing, diagnosed with cancer, beat cancer and came back to win more TFD. Now it's been proven he was cheating all along.. terrible.

[KevinNYC]

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

Statement From USADA CEO Travis T. Tygart Regarding The U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team Doping Conspiracy

[QUOTE]Today, we are sending the

[blacknapalm]

the most damning evidence comes from big george. lance considered him a best friend at one point (not sure how they are now). he even dedicated an entire foreword to him in one of his books, calling him loyal and such.

for those that blame the other cyclists for snitching...what are they supposed to do? face perjury charges? attack USADA if you want but the cyclists themselves aren't going to go to jail to protect one guy. i don't think you can expect any reasonable person to do that.

ignoring the corroborated evidence itself, vande velde and zabriskie's testimony is also very strong considering those guys have never tested positive. to basically admit to being involved is a giant leap forward in sullying their own names and they have a lot more to lose than to gain in the process.

not sure what some people need beyond that. he'll go back to saying he's never tested positive and he was the most tested athlete alive. if that's good enough for you, so be it.

there's not going to be a picture of him with a needle in his ass. there's not going to be a picture of him smiling with a doped blood bag, but where's there's smoke there's fire and the smoke keeps brewing.

listen, i wanted to believe he was clean for a long time too. i wanted to believe it was disgruntled ex employees, bitter rivals and a media frenzy. things just stacked up to the point where it was hard to ignore it all.

then many of his rivals were getting popped. then his teammates would switch teams and get popped. that just leads you to ask questions...how was he able to beat out all those other dopers clean? not just once, but seven times? why are so many of his former teammates getting busted? he really knew nothing? these guys train, eat, sleep and travel together. it's highly unlikely a team leader would not notice anyone doping at any point. then you had the ferrari and bruyneel connection, which i'll let you look up yourself because it's too long winded to explain. ferrari was basically busted for supplying drugs but there's many more details involved. i almost feel like this is a soap opera, lol.

going back to what yobore said, armstrong definitely has some unsavory accounts about him out there. don't let his image fool you...he's far from a saint.

anyway, the entire cycling culture doped during that era. most of the peloton doped just to keep up. i still regard lance as the best TDF rider of that time easily so it really doesn't change my perception of that. he doped and beat other dopers. i don't think he had some grand batch that was 10x stronger than everybody else's. he still had to train his body and mind extensively.

controls are better now i think and split times aren't as outrageous as they were, so i do believe the sport has cleaned up a lot. that's a good thing because it makes it hard to find sponsors otherwise. i think it's shifted and most cycling teams realize that now. that's not to say it's 100% clean but i do not believe the majority dopes now.

the sport just needs to move on from this but i guess we'll keep hearing about this more and more as bruyneel's arbitration approaches.

[gigantes]

Have you read the news reports? I just did. Nothing half assed about it. Multiple teammates testified against him. The biggest names in American cycling were all in on it, and detailed how the whole scheme worked. The news articles make it clear, that if you were a young rider on the Postal team, you had to dope or lose your job because Armstrong felt you might be a weak link if you didn't dope.
i get all that, and i agree that it sucks, but as i said... my concern is that the public and cycling body is left with an impression that this is all about one guy. to make it about one guy and stop there is what i basically meant by "half-assed."

of course, if they went after everyone who cheated to the nth degree, they'd probably have to wipe out almost the entire list of winners for all the major events going back to the very founding of the tour. so maybe they do have to stop with armstrong and call it a day in terms of going after past champions. or maybe they just should have just let this one go, considering how bad it makes everyone in cycling look. :confusedshrug:

i guess we'll see how many fans cycling loses after this. maybe most of them just won't care, and maybe the sport doesn't need casual fans in order to function. :confusedshrug:

[blacknapalm]

i get all that, and i agree that it sucks, but as i said... my concern is that the public and cycling body is left with an impression that this is all about one guy. to make it about one guy and stop there is what i basically meant by "half-assed."

of course, if they went after everyone who cheated to the nth degree, they'd probably have to wipe out almost the entire list of winners for all the major events going back to the very founding of the tour. so maybe they do have to stop with armstrong and call it a day in terms of going after past champions. or maybe they just should have just let this one go, considering how bad it makes everyone in cycling look. :confusedshrug:

i guess we'll see how many fans cycling loses after this. maybe most of them just won't care, and maybe the sport doesn't need casual fans in order to function. :confusedshrug:

from my experience, cycling thrives off loyalty. the dedicated riders ride with clubs and those clubs are associated w/ different stores. those stores usually have deals with sponsors. once you ride with a club, you tend to buy your gear almost exclusively from them. they, in turn, try to give you deals for being a frequent customer.

that's not to say the casual fans don't matter. they do but i think that has more to do with the TV deal side of things. does it take a dominant american winning to lure in the casual crowd? what you want is a new generation to remain interested in cycling so the sponsors can survive. it's sort of a domino effect. when sponsors pull out, teams collapse. anyway, not a business expert...just the way i see it.

as far as USADA spending millions to go after one guy...you can definitely argue that it's a waste of resources but i guess they felt they had to make an example. hard to find a bigger figure than lance and considering he lived in america, they were able to probably rely on more resources locally.

i personally don't care much but that's only because i've felt that whole era was marred. it doesn't come as a shock to me really and i still enjoy watching it, for the drama and the strategy involved. do i prefer a cleaner race? for sure. it's so much better for the sport's success in the long run. sponsors don't want to be associated with doping. it just looks bad and is too risky. that's why i hope today's peloton is mostly clean and i do believe that right now. there's always going to be dopers but i'd like to think it's not on a systematic level.

btw, they gave leipheimer a six month ban for his testimony. i thought that was pretty petty. this isn't about full accountability. it's about going after one group.

[gigantes]

from my experience, cycling thrives off loyalty. the dedicated riders ride with clubs and those clubs are associated w/ different stores. those stores usually have deals with sponsors. once you ride with a club, you tend to buy your gear almost exclusively from them. they, in turn, try to give you deals for being a frequent customer.

that's not to say the casual fans don't matter. they do but i think that has more to do with the TV deal side of things. does it take a dominant american winning to lure in the casual crowd? what you want is a new generation to remain interested in cycling so the sponsors can survive. it's sort of a domino effect. when sponsors pull out, teams collapse. anyway, not a business expert...just the way i see it.

as far as USADA spending millions to go after one guy...you can definitely argue that it's a waste of resources but i guess they felt they had to make an example. hard to find a bigger figure than lance and considering he lived in america, they were able to probably rely on more resources locally.

i personally don't care much but that's only because i've felt that whole era was marred. it doesn't come as a shock to me really and i still enjoy watching it, for the drama and the strategy involved.

btw, they gave leipheimer a six month ban for his testimony. i thought that was pretty petty. this isn't about full accountability. it's about going after one group.
makes perfect sense to me.
why can't you say something batshit crazy from time to time, 'napalm?

for me, it's just all so discouraging / borderline depressing. as a casual fan of the sport. as an american. as someone who likes to see a phoenix rise from its ashes. as someone who respects charitable athletes.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uECWUrlMFSI/TxBKzt7J7OI/AAAAAAAADmI/7qlXOjy-dD0/s400/biglebowski78.jpg
bummer, man. that's a f--kin' bummer.

[blacknapalm]

makes perfect sense to me.
why can't you say something batshit crazy from time to time, 'napalm?

for me, it's just all so discouraging / borderline depressing. as a casual fan of the sport. as an american. as someone who likes to see a phoenix rise from its ashes. as someone who respects charitable athletes.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uECWUrlMFSI/TxBKzt7J7OI/AAAAAAAADmI/7qlXOjy-dD0/s400/biglebowski78.jpg
bummer, man. that's a f--kin' bummer.

ya, i can understand your POV. i'm a sucker for ' feel good' sports stories too and lance's was up there with some of the best. :(

haha, i can say some off the wall stuff when i get sauced. general talking out my ass type stuff...ya know. i keep some of my dumb ideas/theories to myself. otherwise, there's plenty i know jack shit about so i guess it's a good idea when i know to be quiet :lol

[Blue&Orange]

Well apparently there was a team effort in the cheating so i can't single him out.


But i'm definitely having a laugh at all the morons that are crying foul because this looser and cheater was finally expose.

It was suspicious all along, you either believed he was more than human or was doped, now with all the evidence you have to be brain dead to still support this looser.

[Godzuki]

its so annoying there are still so many Americans that make excuses for him, and now a lot are blaming the ones who told on him, rather than Lance himself. i can't stand blind homers especially when they will prop Lance for being clean for so many years blaming the doping agencies for constantly testing him, then once this comes out they'll jump to other excuses like "everyone cheats so it doesn't matter" or "he didn't test positive" :mad:

sad thing is they should be the most offended since they were blatantly lied to the most :facepalm

[daily]

My biggest problem with it all is it does nothing to change the sport. All they've done is single out American riders because it's an American agency heading the investigation and handing out the discipline. In a predominatelly european sport where doping or cheating is the norm and not the exception all they've done is addressed one small group that will have zero effect on 85% of the riders. There needs to be a total overhaul of the sport from all angles not just one. I know the Europeans nab one guy or two per year but it's drops in the bucket when it comes to cycling.

Armstrong passed each and every test, hundreds of tests when he was riding as did he fellow teammates and with the recent revelations of how much he was supposedly cheating that just shows how badly the tour is overseeing it's own event.

They're either totally incompetent in Europe or turning a blind eye and that's where my problem lies. It's not fair for everyone to pass tests in Europe time and time again then Americans to be retro-actively singled out and punished by a US based agency with better resources and a stronger sense of fair play.

I'm not making excuses for Armstrong or any of the US riders, I'm just not comfortable with the different levels of scrutiny involved here

[Nash]

goat cheater, got away with it for so long and won 7 tour de france in the process :lol

[christian1923]

Failed drug test or it didn't happen.

[Godzuki]

My biggest problem with it all is it does nothing to change the sport. All they've done is single out American riders because it's an American agency heading the investigation and handing out the discipline. In a predominatelly european sport where doping or cheating is the norm and not the exception all they've done is addressed one small group that will have zero effect on 85% of the riders. There needs to be a total overhaul of the sport from all angles not just one. I know the Europeans nab one guy or two per year but it's drops in the bucket when it comes to cycling.

Armstrong passed each and every test, hundreds of tests when he was riding as did he fellow teammates and with the recent revelations of how much he was supposedly cheating that just shows how badly the tour is overseeing it's own event.

They're either totally incompetent in Europe or turning a blind eye and that's where my problem lies. It's not fair for everyone to pass tests in Europe time and time again then Americans to be retro-actively singled out and punished by a US based agency with better resources and a stronger sense of fair play.

I'm not making excuses for Armstrong or any of the US riders, I'm just not comfortable with the different levels of scrutiny involved here

they can't be turning a blind eye considering how many cyclists they've caught, and you can't all of a sudden start being critical of them not overhauling the whole sport when the controversy is about the one guy so many acted like was super human and clean has been outed after so many tests and suspicions. its like changing the subject. not trying to attack you or anything but you do seem very bias in how you keep trying to make excuses for Lance or blame others when the current story is Lance being caught pretty definitively that he was doping.

[daily]

Godzuki you missed the point, the point is (to me) you have one agency unfettered passing down judgement on a small group of participants because they can only punish the American riders involved. This agency has no involvement with the tour or in eupropean cycling yet they are passing down judgement based on testimony alone, no actual failed tests from the tour. Like I said i'm not making excuses for any of the riders including Armstrong, I'm being critical of the enforcement system that is clearly flawed

Lepeheimer's statement today



Today, I accept responsibility and Usada's sanctions for participating in the dirty past of cycling. I've been racing clean for more than 5 years in a changed and much cleaner sport. I hope that my admission will help to make these changes permanent.

Until recently—or maybe even until today—when people thought about doping, they thought about a guy, by himself, using banned substances to get ahead. What people didn't realize—what I didn't realize until after I was already committed to this career—was that doping was organized and everywhere in the peloton. Doping wasn't the exception, it was the norm.

When I was a 13-year-old kid, my dream was to ride the Tour de France. I fully devoted my life to that goal. I left home as a teenager, passed on a college degree, moved to Europe at 19 and lived in hostels with roommates who didn't speak my language.

Having made sacrifices for my dream, several years after I turned pro, I came to see cycling for what it was: a sport where some team managers and doctors coordinated and facilitated the use of banned substances and methods by their riders. A sport where the athletes at the highest level—perhaps without exception—used banned substances. A sport where doping was so accepted that riders from different teams—who were competitors on the road—coordinated their doping to keep up with other riders doing the same thing.

I regret that this was the state of affairs in the sport that we love and I chose as my career. I am sorry that I was forced to make the decisions I made. I admit that I didn't let doping deter me from my dream. I admit that I used banned substances.

I know that learning this will disappoint many of my fans and friends and I am sorry that the sport and I have let you down.

Right or wrong, in my mind the choice was "do it or go home." For me that was not a choice.


People will be disappointed and say I was wrong, that I should have chosen differently, and am just making excuses. I made the decision I made. I don't offer this description of the sport as an excuse, simply as an explanation of the context and reason for my decision. I won't lie about it—I have to own it—I accept responsibility for my decision.

I could have come forward sooner. But would that have accomplished anything—other than to end my career? One rider coming forward and telling his story in the face of cycling's code of silence would not have fixed a problem that was institutional.

When Usada came to me and described a solution—where my admission could be part of a bigger plan that would make the positive changes we've seen in recent years permanent—I said "I need to be involved." I don't want today's 13 year olds to be discouraged by their parents from dreaming about one day riding the Tour de France.

Thanks to better testing and a shift in the culture of the sport, cycling has been much cleaner for a number of years. The new generation of riders is not faced with the decisions we were. By taking responsibility for what we have done, my generation will make sure it stays that way.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444799904578048672603746526.html

[Hittin_Shots]

I was listening to an interview with I'm guessing the guy that was his 'best friend' and teammate at some point. From what he was saying I took it that doping was the consensus in the sport. Sounded like all the top riders did it and you had to to keep up, obviously to win 7 titles in a field of cheats is still an accomplishment even if you're cheating right? And if you will be banned if caught cheating, people really expect that he shouldn't have been so adamant that he wasn't a cheat? So he should have said "yes I'm cheating, but so are all of the other riders out there" I didn't hear much about other riders doing that...

[Hittin_Shots]

its so annoying there are still so many Americans that make excuses for him, and now a lot are blaming the ones who told on him, rather than Lance himself. i can't stand blind homers especially when they will prop Lance for being clean for so many years blaming the doping agencies for constantly testing him, then once this comes out they'll jump to other excuses like "everyone cheats so it doesn't matter" or "he didn't test positive" :mad:

sad thing is they should be the most offended since they were blatantly lied to the most :facepalm

I don't following cycling, don't care for it at all and I'm not American. But the excuses everyone cheats seems quite reasonable from this. If you are going to take testimonial evidence, which is what they are using to prove he cheated. Then within those testimonies of him cheating they are saying that nearly every top rider was also cheating... So if that form of evidence is reason enough to believe against Armstrong, surely it is enough to argue a case(excuse) for him also?

[lilbeastnani]

To me the thing about it is, as people have said a large volume of those cyclists were doping. He is being scrutinized for being the BEST among the cheaters. That's the only thing I don't like about "scandals" like this one where hundreds of athletes are involved but only the best among them are really looked upon like a villian. At the end of the day, even with the doping he still had to put in a ton of work to get where he's at. Sucks that he has to be the one they are making an example out of.

[SevereUpInHere]

I just pray nothing like this ever comes out in the NBA. I couldn't care less about cycling, but this still depresses me for some reason.

[G-train]

To be honest, hes just riding a bike. Who really cares?

:oldlol:

Does this also mean less dudes in lycra clogging up my cafes?

[tomtucker]

Failed drug test or it didn't happen.

agree.......where are the Failed drug tests ?......

[yobore]

I don't following cycling, don't care for it at all and I'm not American. But the excuses everyone cheats seems quite reasonable from this. If you are going to take testimonial evidence, which is what they are using to prove he cheated. Then within those testimonies of him cheating they are saying that nearly every top rider was also cheating... So if that form of evidence is reason enough to believe against Armstrong, surely it is enough to argue a case(excuse) for him also?You're missing part of the story. Being the best cheater is just one of his offenses. He was a team leader of a very successful doping team that used the best techniques and best doctors. Armstrong very likely paid money to a corrupt UCI to get tips on blood and void two positive tests, hired the best lawyers to sue journalists who exposed him for millions, got a tell-all book banned from English translation (which is partly why Americans are a decade late to the realization that Armstrong was a cheater), enforced the isolation of riders who went to the media and was generally brutal to them, including riders known for being clean who complained about the pressures described in the linked article. The guy is not normal in the head judging by the way he continues to deny and is continuously doubling down on his innocence to keep his hero status to his dwindling believers. If he hadn't struggled so crazily his whole career to keep his doping under wraps and make sure noone spoke out, he would have been just another doper but remembered as a great cyclist like all the other greatest cyclists of all time, but he did and he won't be.

[DCL]

armstrong was like the gangsta who pimped his riders. if you tried to rat him out or dare go tell anybody about it, he'd come after you like an insane mothafukka and fukk you up. others wanted out but had no choice. he abused his powers so much and attacked anyone who dared to stand up. the most corrupt guy on the team was probably lance armstrong.

I think armstrong is total piece of sh!t not because he cheated since that was done by everyone. but I think he's a big piece of sh!t because of the way he's acted this entire time. he took advantage of his cancer beating story to betray so many people's trust and he cheated the hearts of every fan to pretend to be this great and admirable all-american hero. he also took advantage of his position to maliciously hurt anyone who dared to speak the truth. he was a lying bastard to the highest degree. there's just no ounce of honor in that. at all.

his way of intimidating any whistle blower by throwing down giant lawsuits also shows how far he'd go to expand his level of deceit, showing his true colors of character. every denial was vehement. he'd even lie to people straight-to-their-eyes-without-blinking and give "swear to god on my mother's grave" type of promises that he was 100% clean because all he cared about was you buying into his bullshit story and believing he was still this glorious all-american hero.

but it turns out, he's not a hero.

he's just a sorry ass piece of sh!t. probably the biggest piece of sh!t ever for someone who gave such a false image of an honorable person. and he doesn't appear to show any remorse at all. you see other remorseful riders coming forward and acknowledging their own mistakes. but armstrong?? still the same corrupt lying assho!e who wants to hurt and attack people back instead of admitting his wrong. he betrayed and stepped on so many people to just save his own ass.

he couldn't be anything more opposite than a hero.

[Chapallaz]

Calvin Murphy ftw.

[BEAST Griffin]

Maybe substances he took caused his cancer.

[Dasher]

Carl Lewis is probably the biggest cheater of all time.

[bmulls]

agree.......where are the Failed drug tests ?......

He failed 5 or 6 tests for EPO in 1999 after they went back and tested his samples with newer techniques.

Even if they didn't have physical evidence on him, Barry Bonds never failed a drug test either. 11 of Lance's former teammates ratted on him, basically said he was the ringleader of the entire doping program. They have emails and other docs connecting him to Dr. Ferrari, the dude convicted of trafficing PEDs. We really gonna act like this is just some massive conspiracy to bring down a beloved American hero for no reason? :rolleyes:

Whether you think it matters or not is one thing, but let's not act like he didn't do it. He's obviously guilty.

[tomtucker]

He failed 5 or 6 tests for EPO in 1999 after they went back and tested his samples with newer techniques.

Even if they didn't have physical evidence on him, Barry Bonds never failed a drug test either. 11 of Lance's former teammates ratted on him, basically said he was the ringleader of the entire doping program. They have emails and other docs connecting him to Dr. Ferrari, the dude convicted of trafficing PEDs. We really gonna act like this is just some massive conspiracy to bring down a beloved American hero for no reason? :rolleyes:

Whether you think it matters or not is one thing, but let's not act like he didn't do it. He's obviously guilty.
does not matter what others riders have to say, bikeriders are egocentric assholes, and with a bad personality in general.........ever heard those dikks talk in interwiews ?........when i was a kid, i used to ride mountainbike, visited a few bikeshops where semi-pro riders worked.......damm, they were some assholes !

[blacknapalm]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19912623

some more of the sordid details revealed by hamilton. i find it amusing that all they had to do was hide when drug testers came around. seriously, that's like a 4 year old hiding from his mom :lol

and damn, they just had packets of blood taped to the wall ready to go for IV. that's some organization.

i think accountability is a lot better now. random drug tests aren't truly random if you get tipped off or can just show up later. you should be able to show up for a drug test within an hour. they should install a system where if you can't make it, you get a check. one check = warning. i can understand having an emergency or being tied up that you can't make it within that hour. two checks = 6 month ban. make your drug test or risk coming off as possibly guilty.

[DeuceWallaces]

Why does anyone care about any sport. I cared.



Have you read the news reports? I just did. Nothing half assed about it. Multiple teammates testified against him. The biggest names in American cycling were all in on it, and detailed how the whole scheme worked. The news articles make it clear, that if you were a young rider on the Postal team, you had to dope or lose your job because Armstrong felt you might be a weak link if you didn't dope.

It's all going to make an interesting movie one day.

He prolly juiced but most the people testifying against him just got caught so they'll obviously say whatever.

[blacknapalm]

He prolly juiced but most the people testifying against him just got caught so they'll obviously say whatever.

three were never caught (hincapie, zabriskie, vande velde). hincapie was considered armstrong's 'best bro'. that's why i said his account is the most damning and some of the hardest evidence to ignore. six total never even said anything negative about lance publicly.

[DeuceWallaces]

three were never caught (hincapie, zabriskie, vande velde). hincapie was considered armstrong's 'best bro'. that's why i said his account is the most damning and some of the hardest evidence to ignore. six total never even said anything negative about lance publicly.

Most of them were caught, and I assume the remaining would have been had they not come forward against Lance. Everyone was juicing, he was still the best; shouldn't change anything.

[blacknapalm]

Most of them were caught, and I assume the remaining would have been had they not come forward against Lance. Everyone was juicing, he was still the best; shouldn't change anything.

how would the three that have never tested positive be caught without their testimony? hincapie is retired. he's now had his admission of guilt...he arguably had the most to lose as his reputation is damn near spotless.

[KevinNYC]

He prolly juiced but most the people testifying against him just got caught so they'll obviously say whatever.

That's not so obvious at all.

Also as pointed out, if you followed the sport, these names jump out at you, particularly Hincapie.

When I saw George Hincapie's name, I just thought the jig is up.

[DeuceWallaces]

how would the three that have never tested positive be caught without their testimony? hincapie is retired. he's now had his admission of guilt...he arguably had the most to lose as his reputation is damn near spotless.

Lance prolly juiced but the ones who weren't caught are obviously jealous. Silly you can't see this.

[blacknapalm]

Lance prolly juiced but the ones who weren't caught are obviously jealous. Silly you can't see this.

i can see that angle for some, mostly landis and hamilton. the thing is...if they weren't brought in to testify, the stuff about those other three would probably not have gotten out. they sully their own names in the process. the remaining active riders all got six month bans.

you're a fool if you think hincapie would have turned on lance out of the blue. they were on very good terms. lance dedicated a whole foreword to him in one of his books. he doesn't come off as the jealous type. he was known as a team player. if anything, the guy would have minded his own business as that's his nature. you won't see this guy making the rounds on media talk shows. he didn't even like to do interviews in the first place.

it's not like he got his court summons and was like, 'holy shit, i get to spill the beans on one of my best friends now! hell ya!'

he was called to testify....lie and face perjury charges. they rounded up everybody they could from US postal. i'm sure it wasn't a pleasant experience for him but faced with jail time, he decided to tell the truth. i think most of us would have fessed up in that situation. hincapie's career is over. he pretty much gains nothing from this.

[Smoke117]

They all ****ing cheaters. So picking the WINNER of the cheaters is called hypocrisy. So **** them all!

[DeuceWallaces]

i can see that angle for some, mostly landis and hamilton. the thing is...if they weren't brought in to testify, the stuff about those other three would probably not have gotten out. they sully their own names in the process. the remaining active riders all got six month bans.

you're a fool if you think hincapie would have turned on lance out of the blue. they were on very good terms. lance dedicated a whole foreword to him in one of his books. he doesn't come off as the jealous type. he was known as a team player. if anything, the guy would have minded his own business as that's his nature. you won't see this guy making the rounds on media talk shows. he didn't even like to do interviews in the first place.

he was called to testify....lie and face perjury charges. they rounded up everybody they could from US postal. i'm sure it wasn't a pleasant experience for him but faced with jail time, he decided to tell the truth. i think most of us would have fessed up in that situation. hincapie's career is over. he pretty much gains nothing from this.

You're nuts if you think the ones who weren't caught red handed but never placed in the tour don't have motive to throw Lance under the bus.

[blacknapalm]

You're nuts if you think the ones who weren't caught red handed but never placed in the tour don't have motive to throw Lance under the bus.

ya, the ones that weren't caught...implicated themselves. now they're caught. i believe their motive was not going to jail. might be a possibility.

what else would it be? 'i didn't place in the tour, didn't test positive but damnit, i'm going to admit to doping....so i look like more of a subpar rider so i can get at that lance?' ok then.

what does placing in the tour have to do with anything? this isn't basketball. teams literally ride for one guy unless one emerges as the better rider in the season. hincapie literally drove lance up mt ventoux in 2001. he drafted him almost near the summit before he gassed and had to tail out. he did his job as any great teammate did. this allowed lance to save his lungs and legs. getting drafted up near the top of a mountain is huge.

tell me the motive for hincapie. i don't think you understand armstrong and hincapie's relationship. they were pretty much best friends at one point. if lance hates him now, that's on him. he didn't come forward. he didn't try to sell a story or write a book...he was called upon to testify.

lance is just protecting his brand at this point. i think the silence on his end speaks volumes. the end of the road is here. you've been outed. you can still carry on with your cancer stuff. i think that stuff is fine. but really....no need to keep being in denial. you doped. you beat dopers. it was the era. okay then. stop lying through your teeth and being so adamant that you passed all drug tests and are therefore innocent. shit's weak. three riders on your team that had almost nothing to gain admitted guilt on their behalf. one was your best friend.

here's hincapie's statement: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2012/10/george-hincapies-statement-on-usada-investigation-into-lance-armstrong

[LJJ]

Lance prolly juiced but the ones who weren't caught are obviously jealous. Silly you can't see this.

You are right about his main competitors, and also the teammates he had issues with such as Landis and Hamilton.

But not about most of the other guys though. The vast majority of riders don't have it in them to win a race like the TdF and are completely comfortable with their support role. Riding for US Postal/Discovery was probably the greatest thing that ever happened to those guys, both for their legacy and their bank account.

They confessed to avoid committing perjury and probably because they feel pretty guilty now the dust has settled.

[blacknapalm]

You are right about his main competitors, and also the teammates he had issues with such as Landis and Hamilton.

But not about most of the other guys though. The vast majority of riders don't have it in them to win a race like the TdF and are completely comfortable with their support role. Riding for US Postal/Discovery was probably the greatest thing that ever happened to those guys, both for their legacy and their bank account.

They confessed to avoid committing perjury and probably because they feel pretty guilty now the dust has settled.

well said. hincapie and leipheimer will be seen as great riders. leipheimer really came on late. hincapie was a career team guy.

leipheimer is a great rider but never really had that extra kick in the mountains to separate himself. he's an all-around rider. good at everything but not really great at anything. jack of all trades. it's always been one of my main criticisms of him. he just doesn't have the ability to get into that 'extra gear'. he's a great rider so that's nothing to be ashamed of.

anyway, him and horner have always done well in the cali and colorado races and i hope that isn't overlooked. then they held their own in europe. many riders would kill for one of their careers. again, hincapie had a shit ton to lose. he's done with racing and retired. you really think USADA wiould chase him? he's not that figurehead.

[lakers_forever]

When people start throwing the "but everyone does it bs", you know shite is bad and there's just no argument at all in favor of Lance Armstrong. There's evidence against him. He quit on his right to defend himself. There's no evidence against all other bikers who competed against him. It still exists something called Presumption of innocence.

He is a cheater. He is a fraud. Deal with it.

[9512]

As a guy living in France, I can say the reporters on TV are totally enjoying this scandal.

Random fans of the Tour were interviewed and they regaled at Armstrong being exposed for the fraud he is. They say he "stole it from us."

Random comment about Lance:

Does anyone notice his tense facial expression in general? He has this peculiar gaze...Like he is trying to suppress his lie.

[DCL]

Lance Armstrong as the greatest fraud in American sports

Officially, Jose "Pepe" Marti was listed as trainer for the Postal Service cycling team. But those on the team knew him as "The Courier."

One day while chatting with Tyler Hamilton, Pepe told the Postal Service surrogate that he had to drive to Nice, France, to make a delivery. That night, at the Villa d'Este Restaurant in Nice, Pepe arrived to a late dinner that included Lance Armstrong and his then-wife, Kristin, as well as Betsy Andreu, wife of Postal rider Frankie Andreu. According to Betsy, the reason given for the late dinner was because Pepe was there to deliver EPO (erythropoietin, a banned hormone that controls red blood cell production) to Lance and it was safer for him to cross the border with illegal drugs at night.

After dinner was over, the Armstrongs drove Betsy home. At some point, she saw Pepe hand Lance a brown paper bag. As Armstrong opened the car door for Andreu, he smiled, held up the bag and said, "Liquid gold."

On another occasion, as the Armstrongs and Andreus drove to a bike race in Milan, Italy, Armstrong stopped at a hotel/gas station outside Milan to meet Dr. Michele Ferrari, now infamous for supplying cyclists with performance-enhancing drugs. When asked why they were meeting him in such an odd place, Armstrong replied, "So the [expletive] press doesn't hound him." Leaving the other three in the car, Armstrong disappeared into Ferrari's camper for about an hour. When he returned, Armstrong exclaimed, "My numbers are great!"

[BurningHammer]

Random fans of the Tour were interviewed and they regaled at Armstrong being exposed for the fraud he is. They say he "stole it from us."
Well, even without Lance, somebody else would steal it in his place anyway. Stupid fans.

[RaininThrees]

And let's not forget:

Dollars donated to support cancer research from Livestrong since 2010: $0.00.

[bmulls]

And let's not forget:

Dollars donated to support cancer research from Livestrong since 2010: $0.00.

Source?

[RaininThrees]

Source?

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all

[QUOTE]Equally interesting is what the foundation doesn

[Real Men Wear Green]

And now we have bribes. (http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20121019_Report__Armstrong_offered_bribes_to_fello w_cyclists_in_Philadelphia_race_and_others.html)

Armstrong may go down in flames as the most fraudulent sports "hero" of all time.

[Lebron23]

F*ck Lance Armstrong. This guy should have been WCW World Heavyweight Champion.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yDnVKnYkcaY/S1yigeZPzwI/AAAAAAAAAPY/vLDyuU83TS4/s400/storm_vcrppv.jpg

[Godzuki]

i swear nothing makes me crazier these days than seeing people stick up for Lance Armstrong saying how he never tested positive :mad: :mad: :facepalm

and the saddest thing of all is he's such a POS person, and so manipulative while the very people he manipulated the most are still trying to stand by him knowing he told them a massive lie for years. i mean a lie so big it puts most other lies to shame, and acting so venemously innocent for so long. i also think he knew they were going to come out publicly with these accusations and condemnation beforehand where he tried to discredit the organizations to his fans with that crap about how he's not going to fight the accusations anymore because they're just out to get him. its just such calculated manipulation of so many idiots and it kills me they don't get that :facepalm

[blacknapalm]

here's one example of him being a bully: http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/armstrong-hunts-down-rider

just as a primer to some of the casual fans...cyclists attack at different times. if the breakaway poses a threat to the overall standings at the top, the maillot jaune (yellow jersey) and his lead domestique will chase that team down. not just them, but much of the peloton will have the same interest.

when they are just looking for stage wins, like in this case, there's no real reason at all really launch a counter attack. simeoni trailed by a whole three hours so this was just lance trying to send a personal message.

you don't actively chase down non-threatening cyclists. it's bad bike etiquette just like it's bad etiquette to chase down or make up time during the very final stage which is more a touring/celebratory stage.

here's accompanying video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWGQNKUgQQ&list=FL12YeRSQwB04kkzSzviJ5Tw&index=2&feature=plpp_video

you can see the 'zip it' motion at :16. it doesn't take much to put the two together...simeoni testified in one of ferrari's doping trials.

you can also look up the bassons controversy. if you were a whistleblower, you were ostracized and outcast.

i'm not just showing this to present the bully tactics. i also wanted to share how rampant the drug use was and i'm sure there's far better articles than this one, particularly the recent ones.

lance did all he could to protect his brand and i'm sure many in the peloton silently agreed to keep the ones who wanted to come forward away. they're guilty in their own ways too. in the process, careers were destroyed. not just cyclists, but journalists too.

really, i can't believe how little mishaps or complications there were. i guess they all had really good docs and were as organized/clean/cautious as possible.

[DCL]

athletes often make mistakes, and many times we rationalize and forgive.

but with armstrong. man, this guy was such a f--king assho!e and manipulative bastard, he's almost a perfect example of karma.

everyone doped in that sport, so the doping wasn't that outrageous. at least to observers with some common sense.

but armstrong wasn't just a plain doper. he was a backstabber, a manipulator, a bully, a tyrant, a straight up fraud, a calculating criminal, a douchebag, a d!ckhead, and a motherfugging asshole. he stepped on so many people to cash in on his lies. he used his cancer-beating story to betray and steal the respect of his fans. he made himself to be this honorable, honest, and proud all-american good guy hero. but nothing could be further away from the truth. in reality, he's as dark, ugly, and shady as they come. like the priest who gives gospel to mothers and then molests their kids in the back room.

it serves him right that his world is turned upside down.

what's happening to him right now is karma.

[tomtucker]

athletes often make mistakes, and many times we rationalize and forgive.

but with armstrong. man, this guy was such a f--king assho!e and manipulative bastard, he's almost a perfect example of karma.

everyone cheated in that sport, so the cheating wasn't that outrageous. at least to observers with some common sense.

but armstrong wasn't just a plain cheater. he was a backstabber, a manipulator, a bully, a tyrant, a straight up fraud, a douchebag, a d!ckhead, and a motherfugging asshole. he stepped on so many people to cash in on his lies. he used his cancer-beating story to betray and steal the respect of his fans. he made himself to be this honorable, honest, and proud all-american hero. but that was just his fake brand. in reality, he's as dark an shady as they come. like the priest who gives gospel to mothers and then molests their kids in the back room.

lance armstrong was a huge piece of sh!t for a human.

what's happening to him right now is karma.

i refuse to belive that about him........

[ILLsmak]

Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods are good examples for REAL LIFE. Obviously they did wrong, but it's important to understand nearly everyone at the top is imperfect and the moment you slip they throw you under the bus.

It's like LeBron. You don't think dude is on PEDs? But his body is build for PEDs. Other people are on them, but his natural athleticism makes him benefit more from it. Same with Lance. Can't hate him. Kinda think he's a lying bitch... but other than that...

-Smak

[Clifton]

The drugs didn't push the pedals. Lance + drugs beat Field + drugs 7 times.

I'm surprised that doping is even frowned upon still. It's taken for granted, I think, among most people, that to be a top-tier professional athlete is to sacrifice your life for the sport. Ask any retired NFL star what it's like to get up in the morning. We the public expect these guys to be one-dimensional machines who devote themselves to excellence. We don't want them to be healthy and well-rounded, we want them to win.

And then we feign outrage when one of them is scapegoated for actually doing that.

If Lance had replaced his body with a some kind of high-powered robot, or slipped a jet propulsion engine onto his bike without anyone knowing and won that way, then yes he'd be a whole new level of cheater. But performance-enhancing drugs? He still had to perform. He still did perform. He can't have the top tier to himself, therefore. There have to be greater cheaters out there.

[LJJ]

The drugs didn't push the pedals. Lance + drugs beat Field + drugs 7 times.

I'm surprised that doping is even frowned upon still. It's taken for granted, I think, among most people, that to be a top-tier professional athlete is to sacrifice your life for the sport. Ask any retired NFL star what it's like to get up in the morning. We the public expect these guys to be one-dimensional machines who devote themselves to excellence. We don't want them to be healthy and well-rounded, we want them to win.

And then we feign outrage when one of them is scapegoated for actually doing that.

If Lance had replaced his body with a some kind of high-powered robot, or slipped a jet propulsion engine onto his bike without anyone knowing and won that way, then yes he'd be a whole new level of cheater. But performance-enhancing drugs? He still had to perform. He still did perform. He can't have the top tier to himself, therefore. There have to be greater cheaters out there.

The key factor here is that he wasn't just another PED user. He was the single most vocal and most vehement anti-doping spokesperson in his sport, while during this time also being the ringleader behind the most elaborate doping program in the sport.


He wasn't just a known anti-doping spokesperson among the pros, he was the anti doping guy. Armstrong would publicly chastise any previous doping sinner, even after they had served the sport by coming clean literally and figuratively. He presented "once a cheater; always a cheater" as being one of his core norms. He would instruct his teammates and use his goodwill in the peloton to ensure previous doping abusers could not win races or catch any of the limelight, often at the expense of his own or his team's results. That's how vicious and hateful he was towards anyone who had used PEDs once upon a time; he would do everything in his power to actively ruin their professional career even after they had already received their official legal punishment.

And then as a PED user, he wasn't just another user. It's true that doping users aren't exactly a rarity in the sport (or any sport really), but few of them coordinated the structural use of PEDs for their whole professional team. Few of coerced their teammates to used them, and threatened to severely damage their careers if they wouldn't comply. There is even evidence that Armstrong has given massive bribes to the UCI to make suspicious tests and more audacious testing go away. No one else did these things. It's like a massive conspiracy uncovered.

Those are the reasons he would be "the greatest cheater" of all time. And really, I can't think of anyone who is quite on his level. Even the large scale national doping practices of East Germany, Russia and the US in the late seventies and the eighties don't really hold a candle to this. At least they didn't actively play the anti-doping saint and cash in on their status the way Armstrong did.

[tomtucker]

The key factor here is that he wasn't just another PED user. He was the single most vocal and most vehement anti-doping spokesperson in his sport, while during this time also being the ringleader behind the most elaborate doping program in the sport.


He wasn't just a known anti-doping spokesperson among the pros, he was the anti doping guy. Armstrong would publicly chastise any previous doping sinner, even after they had served the sport by coming clean literally and figuratively. He presented "once a cheater; always a cheater" as being one of his core norms. He would instruct his teammates and use his goodwill in the peloton to ensure previous doping abusers could not win races or catch any of the limelight, often at the expense of his own or his team's results. That's how vicious and hateful he was towards anyone who had used PEDs once upon a time; he would do everything in his power to actively ruin their professional career even after they had already received their official legal punishment.

And then as a PED user, he wasn't just another user. It's true that doping users aren't exactly a rarity in the sport (or any sport really), but few of them coordinated the structural use of PEDs for their whole professional team. Few of coerced their teammates to used them, and threatened to severely damage their careers if they wouldn't comply. There is even evidence that Armstrong has given massive bribes to the UCI to make suspicious tests and more audacious testing go away. No one else did these things. It's like a massive conspiracy uncovered.

Those are the reasons he would be "the greatest cheater" of all time. And really, I can't think of anyone who is quite on his level. Even the large scale national doping practices of East Germany, Russia and the US in the late seventies and the eighties don't really hold a candle to this. At least they didn't actively play the anti-doping saint and cash in on their status the way Armstrong did.
there is no evidence.......

[LJJ]

there is no evidence.......

Yes there is. It's no secret Armstrong donated substantial amounts of money and equipment to the UCI. There is also evidence of dodgy testing in regards to Armstrong's blood and urine samples. You can either connect the dots or continue living in fantasy land, given all the rest that has come to light.

And either way, that's only a minor detail in this affair. It couldn't be proven legally (which doesn't mean there isn't evidence), but everything else has been proven legally to be true.

[niko]

The best thing is they can't name alternate winners because in most years they'd need to go to 4th or 5th place to find a person who hasn't been caught cheating. :lol

[Punpun]

The best thing is they can't name alternate winners because in most years they'd need to go to 4th or 5th place to find a person who hasn't been caught cheating. :lol

To the 23rd place actually for one of the year.

[Godzuki]

The drugs didn't push the pedals. Lance + drugs beat Field + drugs 7 times.

I'm surprised that doping is even frowned upon still. It's taken for granted, I think, among most people, that to be a top-tier professional athlete is to sacrifice your life for the sport. Ask any retired NFL star what it's like to get up in the morning. We the public expect these guys to be one-dimensional machines who devote themselves to excellence. We don't want them to be healthy and well-rounded, we want them to win.

And then we feign outrage when one of them is scapegoated for actually doing that.

If Lance had replaced his body with a some kind of high-powered robot, or slipped a jet propulsion engine onto his bike without anyone knowing and won that way, then yes he'd be a whole new level of cheater. But performance-enhancing drugs? He still had to perform. He still did perform. He can't have the top tier to himself, therefore. There have to be greater cheaters out there.

the big issue i have with so many people NOW using this excuse is most weren't using it when they thought Lance was clean. they were saying how horrible human beings are that cheat in sports, and how Lance is the shining beacon of super athlete role model that beat cancer that everyone should emulate. i have major problems with the hypocrisy of so many of the Lance supporters, and the excuses they're making for him now, its just so hard to read :facepalm

[blacknapalm]

five time TDF champ indurain says he believes in lance's innocence. wow, i know they're friends but i always had my slight suspicions he had doped himself. so in that way, it makes sense he would come to defend him. indurain is a guy who middled in the GC, even in the lower ranks for a while and quickly shot up as a contender....he might have had the inside track for a while before he got older and the rest of the peloton joined in. add in the fact that many spanish teams were implicated in doping at that time...and well, his comments don't exactly quell my suspicions.

[red1]

I haven't read up on the recent accusations but I will say that if lance has been doping all this time, he is a piece of shit

[gigantes]

lance beat the system at its own game, over and over for 7+ years.


now the cycling establishment is doing everything in their power to eradicate his name and his record, as if they knew the slightest thing about ethics and drug-free athletics... going back to the very founding of the sport, even.


http://nation.foxnews.com/sites/nation.foxnews.com/files/styles/story_624_300/public/nelson_fox_haha.jpg


laughter is some powerful medicine!


and it's not so much that i'm an armstrong fan as much as i enjoy watching hypocrites stew in their own juices for all to behold. :applause: