I think Jordan is probably the most movement-efficient player ever

[Derivative]

From I know notice of Jordan, is that his moves are very quick and efficient, using the least effort, time, and movement to achieve the same result.

For example, Jordan easily scores a bucket simply by doing a quick pump fake, side step, shoot. Or do a quick fake, then turn opposite way, and scores with the fade away jumping. The time it takes for MJ to score from when he gets the ball to when he scores s amazingly quick, and uses very less movement, which probably explains why MJ is able to still play at GOAT level when hes mid 30s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dkJfK5chA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE7Btby3W5s&feature=related

This contrasts with other perimeters such as Kobe or Wade. Kobe uses alot of movement and finesse in his offensive game, using alot of energy and often end up with a tough shot. Wade's game is even more energy inefficient due to his bad jumpshot and constant need to slash to the basket and finish, having to use extra energy due to his shorter height compared to other SGs. Which might explain why SG's after MJ tend to go downhill quickly after their 30s.

[RazorBaLade]

honestly while you might have a point to some degree, this kind of stuff with jordan is a little ridiculous. Did he also have that little bit more energy for the game because he used the minimum amoutn of toilet wipes to clean his ass before them, something the likes of kobe and lebron have yet to master?

ugh.

[LastEpisode]

honestly while you might have a point to some degree, this kind of stuff with jordan is a little ridiculous. Did he also have that little bit more energy for the game because he used the minimum amoutn of toilet wipes to clean his ass before them, something the likes of kobe and lebron have yet to master?

ugh.
I don't think Kobe needs toilet wipes to clean his ass, he has your tongue to do that for him, but that's not the point.. I agree about Jordan doing it effortlessly but it's not as easy as it looks.. He just makes it look easy..

[Derivative]

I don't think Kobe needs toilet wipes to clean his ass, he has your tongue to do that for him, but that's not the point.. I agree about Jordan doing it effortlessly but it's not as easy as it looks.. He just makes it look easy..

yea i am not saying its easy, i am just saying he is very efficient in his movements, like he doesn't waste time and energy doing unnecessary moves and actions.

[RazorBaLade]

I don't think Kobe needs toilet wipes to clean his ass, he has your tongue to do that for him, but that's not the point.. I agree about Jordan doing it effortlessly but it's not as easy as it looks.. He just makes it look easy..

im glad youre being so contemplative about how kobe keeps his ass clean at 1 in the morning

[Rolando]

OP is is correct. MJ's game has no wasted motion in it. Any student of the game should study how MJ played. He is the pinnacle of technique and efficiency.

[andgar923]

From I know notice of Jordan, is that his moves are very quick and efficient, using the least effort, time, and movement to achieve the same result.

For example, Jordan easily scores a bucket simply by doing a quick pump fake, side step, shoot. Or do a quick fake, then turn opposite way, and scores with the fade away jumping. The time it takes for MJ to score from when he gets the ball to when he scores s amazingly quick, and uses very less movement, which probably explains why MJ is able to still play at GOAT level when hes mid 30s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dkJfK5chA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE7Btby3W5s&feature=related

This contrasts with other perimeters such as Kobe or Wade. Kobe uses alot of movement and finesse in his offensive game, using alot of energy and often end up with a tough shot. Wade's game is even more energy inefficient due to his bad jumpshot and constant need to slash to the basket and finish, having to use extra energy due to his shorter height compared to other SGs. Which might explain why SG's after MJ tend to go downhill quickly after their 30s.

I agree.

Some will naturally say that it was due to his athleticism, which they are somewhat correct in assuming.

Others will say that it was his balance, footwork aka the technical side of things, and they're correct as well.

But other players had great footwork, balance, and at times the combination of both of these qualities, but weren't at the exact level of where MJ was

[BoutPractice]

He definitely has a case among non bigmen. His read and react skills, especially late in his career, were unparalleled, allowing him to make the one move that would beat the defender as opposed to trying a bunch of different strategies.

Bill Russell and Tim Duncan also had great energy efficiency in their games.
It's a highly underrated skill. Probably more appreciated in Europe. In the NBA, Popovich is one of the few coaches that pays great attention to that aspect of the game.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Real talk

Jordan shook guys so easy. Surgical precision.

[Round Mound]

From I know notice of Jordan, is that his moves are very quick and efficient, using the least effort, time, and movement to achieve the same result.

For example, Jordan easily scores a bucket simply by doing a quick pump fake, side step, shoot. Or do a quick fake, then turn opposite way, and scores with the fade away jumping. The time it takes for MJ to score from when he gets the ball to when he scores s amazingly quick, and uses very less movement, which probably explains why MJ is able to still play at GOAT level when hes mid 30s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dkJfK5chA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE7Btby3W5s&feature=related

This contrasts with other perimeters such as Kobe or Wade. Kobe uses alot of movement and finesse in his offensive game, using alot of energy and often end up with a tough shot. Wade's game is even more energy inefficient due to his bad jumpshot and constant need to slash to the basket and finish, having to use extra energy due to his shorter height compared to other SGs. Which might explain why SG's after MJ tend to go downhill quickly after their 30s.

Very Good Analysis and Yes Its True :applause:

[#number6ix#]

Nice moves but it looked like he traveled in the second video

[swi7ch]

Well he is the GOAT after all so this is a no-brainer.

[TyroneNBAFan]

Yeah, Phil Jackson mentioned this about MJ and Kobe.

He said that was one of MJ's greatest strengths, to move forward constantly and not have any wasted motion. He was extremely efficient and tight with his offensive moves.

He said Kobe had become a lot better at that during the 2005-06 season (compared to the last time he coached him).

[CavaliersFTW]

OP is is correct. MJ's game has no wasted motion in it. Any student of the game should study how MJ played. He is the pinnacle of technique and efficiency.
:oldlol: this thread must be a joke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7vsjOHq5E0

[AK47DR91]

Poetry in motion!!! :cheers:

[jstern]

Kobe said something similar in the year 2000. Maybe 2001. Basically what he said was that Jordan was more a first step, quick move open shot, while he was more of dribbler trying to set something up. Made me wonder why he being aware of that he didn't do it more like Jordan, since it sounded more effective, faster and efficient, less fatiguing.

[Money 23]

Kobe said something similar in the year 2000. Maybe 2001. Basically what he said was that Jordan was more a first step, quick move open shot, while he was more of dribbler trying to set something up. Made me wonder why he being aware of that he didn't do it more like Jordan, since it sounded more effective, faster and efficient, less fatiguing.
For some players, dribbling gets them into a flow offensively. I know it does for me, personally.

At the end of the day, even if Kobe imitated MJ, and took aspects of his game (footwork, post moves, jumper, fadeaway) ... their games are different.

MJ was more balanced offensively. Efficient, quick, could drive ... hit mid range jumpers all day, hit the three ball if given but didn't look to take that shot.

Kobe is more of a dribbler. He likes hoisting the three ball than he does taking it inside. Kobe's game is actually more like a mix of Jordan and Iverson.

It's why I understand the comparisons of Kobe being a rich man's taller Allen Iverson. He's basically a more efficient version of AI. He had AIs handle, and penchant for dribbling, and he added the more refined SG aspects of MJ's game.

[Pointguard]

Efficient movement:

Ray Allen is by far the most energy efficient player I've seen with Reggie Miller right behind him.

I would also have Durant higher than Jordan among high scoring perimeter players that use a variation of moves.

Jordan, like Earl Monroe, is the most fluid and graceful... but they lived off making moves.

Kareem was the best of guys that had to live off a move. Duncan the best of guys that did combo moves.

Of the slashers Jordan ranks very high... Worthy was a bit better. Bernard King is right there with Worthy.

Magic Johnson from a team perspective eliminated the need for a lot of moves from the offense, and like Kidd, rarely did something that wasn't needed.

This is off the top of my head.

[Jax]

First reply: Kobe stan tries to ruin a simple discussion...
That's ISH for you.

[Derivative]

Kobe said something similar in the year 2000. Maybe 2001. Basically what he said was that Jordan was more a first step, quick move open shot, while he was more of dribbler trying to set something up. Made me wonder why he being aware of that he didn't do it more like Jordan, since it sounded more effective, faster and efficient, less fatiguing.

Kobe doesn't have the bball iq and offensive awareness that MJ has in order to achieve that efficiency

best description of Kobe is a rich man's iverson

[tmacattack33]

This is a very nonconcrete thing to talk about, and not really even relevant (who cares how much energy you use, what matters is production), but yeah, MJ was pretty smooth.

T-mac has also been called pretty smooth too. People say his game made it look "effort-less". But he's admitted to being lazy during the middle of the regular season, so maybe some of that actually was lack of effort lol.

I'd also say someone like Dirk is pretty smooth...but he also just might be so slow that it looks like he isn't trying to go fast when in actuality he is.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Except that we're not talking about smoothness. A guy like Tmac is undoubtedly smooth, and yet still nowhere near as efficient and economical in his movements leading to shots/scores/plays as Jordan was. It's pretty easy to see that MJ was a clear level above every star player that has come after him in this respect, and that goes to his insane bball IQ and court awareness. Of all-time level players, only Bird compares.

[b1imtf]

honestly while you might have a point to some degree, this kind of stuff with jordan is a little ridiculous. Did he also have that little bit more energy for the game because he used the minimum amoutn of toilet wipes to clean his ass before them, something the likes of kobe and lebron have yet to master?

ugh.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tmacattack33]

Except that we're not talking about smoothness. A guy like Tmac is undoubtedly smooth, and yet still nowhere near as efficient and economical in his movements leading to shots/scores/plays as Jordan was. It's pretty easy to see that MJ was a clear level above every star player that has come after him in this respect, and that goes to his insane bball IQ and court awareness. Of all-time level players, only Bird compares.

That's a very subjective and non-concrete thing to say.

I mean Jordan still ran full speed and at full throttle a lot of the time...and he ended up 40 inches in the air on every other play in the 80's...how exactly is that "energy conservation"?

And with Bird, or Dirk like I said, how are we supposed to know if they are going full throttle or not?


Or if you aren't talking about energy conservation, and are really talking about who can get by their defender with the least amount of moves, what you are really talking about is who can do those little amount of moves the best (or, who is the best at knowing which moves to do)...so then we are just back to the usual discussion of who the best is, period.

[jstern]

That's a very subjective and non-concrete thing to say.

I mean Jordan still ran full speed and at full throttle a lot of the time...and he ended up 40 inches in the air on every other play in the 80's...how exactly is that "energy conservation"?

And with Bird, or Dirk like I said, how are we supposed to know if they are going full throttle or not?


Or if you aren't talking about energy conservation, and are really talking about who can get by their defender with the least amount of moves, what you are really talking about is who can do those little amount of moves the best (or, who is the best at knowing which moves to do)...so then we are just back to the usual discussion of who the best is, period.

I think you're having problem comprehending this thread.

[Pointguard]

Except that we're not talking about smoothness. A guy like Tmac is undoubtedly smooth, and yet still nowhere near as efficient and economical in his movements leading to shots/scores/plays as Jordan was. It's pretty easy to see that MJ was a clear level above every star player that has come after him in this respect, and that goes to his insane bball IQ and court awareness. Of all-time level players, only Bird compares.
Worthy and Bernard King were definitely more efficient than Bird and MJ. Not even questionable. King didn't even pump fake or head fake. Worthy was just a head fake and then a blur. And both only employed two dribbles a majority of the time. You can't do it any cleaner than those guys.

[HardwoodLegend]

:oldlol: this thread must be a joke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7vsjOHq5E0

How does that video make this thread a joke? It wasn't a wasted motion at all. Sam Perkins stuck his hand up and looked to be going into a jumping motion. Jordan switched hands to make sure if he did go for the block it would be more difficult.

[CavaliersFTW]

How does that video make this thread a joke? It wasn't a wasted motion at all. Sam Perkins stuck his hand up and looked to be going into a jumping motion. Jordan switched hands to make sure if he did go for the block it would be more difficult.
Jordan didn't need to switch hands. The defender was nowhere near the ball and wasn't about to touch it. Take the Jordan goggles off. I will agree with his on-floor moves being economical in comparison to modern excessive dribblers like Kobe, Iverson, Westbrook etc - but they certainly aren't the "most efficient" of all time that's f*cking ridiculous and extremely ignorant to suggest especially considering how limited most peoples exposure is to NBA history and historical players here on ISH.

Style-less boring players like Oscar Robertson or Tim f*cking Duncan are the "movement efficient" players not high flyers like Jordan. Many players are more "movement-efficient" compared to Jordan FFS his in the air game was all style and fanfare NOT economy, and you don't need to even dunk to score points much less do cradle dunks or 3 mid-air fakes for a reverse layup - he could just lay it up like Oscar and been just as offensively dominant but he didn't play that way he added the completely unnecessary (but incredibly awesome to watch) crowd-gripping flair to it like Elgin Baylor Julius Erving or Connie Hawkins er-go he's not being "movement" efficent - in fact, his style of play in the air was the antithesis of economy - hence I seriously thought this thread was a joke but now that I see how serious most of you are I'm starting to realise this was just another routine circle-jerk thread where someone tries to suggest Jordan was the "best ever" at some insignificant aspect of the game and because nobody bothers to look up other players in NBA history nobody here has a clue that he shouldn't even be in this discussion.

What was Jordan? He was collectively an ultra-complete player probably the most complete ever along side Oscar Robertson except he played in an era of 3 point lines so he even 1 ups Oscar with a 3 point shot by virtue of the era he was in plus with the aforementioned style points he gets (which counts as something to some people) he's widely considered the best player ever - he's the total package on both ends of the floor - but he wasn't "The Best" at every little trivial facet of the game your imaginations come up with. He's the best total package, he's not the best at everything. And he's definitely not the most "movement efficient" player ever - his in air game is way too dramatic to even begin to suggest that.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan didn't need to switch hands. The defender was nowhere near the ball and wasn't about to touch it. Take the Jordan goggles off. I will agree with his on-floor moves being economical in comparison to modern excessive dribblers like Kobe, Iverson, Westbrook etc - but they certainly aren't the "most efficient" of all time that's f*cking ridiculous and extremely ignorant to suggest especially considering how limited most peoples exposure is to NBA history and historical players here on ISH.

Style-less boring players like Oscar Robertson or Tim f*cking Duncan are the "movement efficient" players not high flyers like Jordan. Many players are more "movement-efficient" compared to Jordan FFS his in the air game was all style and fanfare NOT economy, and you don't need to even dunk to score points much less do cradle dunks or 3 mid-air fakes for a reverse layup - he could just lay it up like Oscar and been just as offensively dominant but he didn't play that way he added the completely unnecessary (but incredibly awesome to watch) crowd-gripping flair to it like Elgin Baylor Julius Erving or Connie Hawkins er-go he's not being "movement" efficent - in fact, his style of play in the air was the antithesis of economy - hence I seriously thought this thread was a joke but now that I see how serious most of you are I'm starting to realise this was just another routine circle-jerk thread where someone tries to suggest Jordan was the "best ever" at some insignificant aspect of the game and because nobody bothers to look up other players in NBA history nobody here has a clue that he shouldn't even be in this discussion.

What was Jordan? He was collectively an ultra-complete player probably the most complete ever along side Oscar Robertson except he played in an era of 3 point lines so he even 1 ups Oscar with a 3 point shot by virtue of the era he was in plus with the aforementioned style points he gets (which counts as something to some people) he's widely considered the best player ever - he's the total package on both ends of the floor - but he wasn't "The Best" at every little trivial facet of the game your imaginations come up with. He's the best total package, he's not the best at everything. And he's definitely not the most "movement efficient" player ever - his in air game is way too dramatic to even begin to suggest that.

How many seconds on average did Jordan have the ball in his hands before shooting or making a play and how does that compare to every star perimtere player who has come after him? Yeah...exactly. That's what people mean by efficiency. No one said he didn't have flair.

All those words for nothing.

[tmacattack33]

I think you're having problem comprehending this thread.

I think it's a very non-concrete thing to say.

Even in the opening post, the OP about two different things it seems. At first he talks about not wasting any movement.

But then he talks overall movement...he talks about Wade and says he's not movement efficient because he moves around a lot and his total amount of movement is high (and he says Wade must move around so much because he's short and lacks a great jump shot...so the OP realizes there is a need for the movement, which means it is not waste...thus the OP here is talking about overall movement).

And if the OP is talking about overall movement, it's obvious that 7 foot centers should be at the top of this list.

[CavaliersFTW]

How many seconds on average did Jordan have the ball in his hands before shooting or making a play and how does that compare to every star perimtere player who has come after him? Yeah...exactly. That's what people mean by efficiency. No one said he didn't have flair.

All those words for nothing.
"movement efficient" - the number of seconds the ball is in your hand before shooting or making a play?

or

"movement efficient" - making the least amount of movements necessary in order to score / defend / make plays etc

Jordan is "the best ever" at NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS. Spot up shooters with quick hands like Jerry West or Ray Allen, or deep post players like Hakeem all touched the ball for less seconds than Jordan before completing plays. And if the definition is the second one which makes a helluva lot more sense than he isn't that either, Clyde Frazier, Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan - the "boring" looking players of NBA history all compete for that definition.

Thread is retarded - just another Jordan circle-jerk based off no facts what-so-ever. Jordan is in the discussion as most complete player ever, greatest shooting guard ever, and greatest NBA player of all time. Not this trivial "movement efficient" crap.

[jstern]

I think it's a very non-concrete thing to say.

Even in the opening post, the OP about two different things it seems. At first he talks about not wasting any movement.

But then he talks overall movement...he talks about Wade and says he's not movement efficient because he moves around a lot and his total amount of movement is high (and he says Wade must move around so much because he's short and lacks a great jump shot...so the OP realizes there is a need for the movement, which means it is not waste...thus the OP here is talking about overall movement).

And if the OP is talking about overall movement, it's obvious that 7 foot centers should be at the top of this list.

He's not talking about energy wasted throughout the whole game, or while doing a full sprint down the court, or jumping. People here are basically talking about how quickly Jordan got a shot off from the moment he got the ball. It's not really about energy wasted, since dribbling and dribbling casually and then shooting could take up less energy than Jordan getting the ball and in one motion doing one fake and exploding to the other side. Even though the Jordan scenario would take up more energy, it was the more efficient play because of how quickly he got the shot off and more in the flow of the game. In general though that style could make Jordan use up less energy, then again it might not. But I think that's the logical assumption, that he would use less energy. Personally I don't think he uses less energy, because I play more like that Jordan style, and just holding the ball and dribbling around is less tiring. But none the less it's the most efficient style in terms of offense.

[jlip]

I have to agree with CavsFTW here. Even if it were possible to actually measure such a thing as "movement efficiency", such a quality would favor the non flashy, perceived boring, but quality players as opposed to a player whose nickname is "Air". I like what Bill Russell had to say about Duncan in this interview (www.nba.com/spurs/multimedia/russell_duncan_pt9.html) starting at the 5:56 mark..."The most efficient player in the NBA. No wasted motion, and no wasted emotion."

[andgar923]

2 dribble pull up. Nobody in the history has done it better. Just a small example of efficient movement. He's explained why the two dribble pull up is a more efficient and harder to defend move, as opposed to the single dribble pull up.

Catch and fade. Another move that he's perfected that few can match. He was specially deadly in the post, almost guaranteed. At times there's no dribble, in one motion he catches turns around and shoots.

[RaininTwos]

"movement efficient" - the number of seconds the ball is in your hand before shooting or making a play?

or

"movement efficient" - making the least amount of movements necessary in order to score / defend / make plays etc

Jordan is "the best ever" at NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS. Spot up shooters with quick hands like Jerry West or Ray Allen, or deep post players like Hakeem all touched the ball for less seconds than Jordan before completing plays. And if the definition is the second one which makes a helluva lot more sense than he isn't that either, Clyde Frazier, Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan - the "boring" looking players of NBA history all compete for that definition.

Thread is retarded - just another Jordan circle-jerk based off no facts what-so-ever. Jordan is in the discussion as most complete player ever, greatest shooting guard ever, and greatest NBA player of all time. Not this trivial "movement efficient" crap.
Seriously.

[CavaliersFTW]

2 dribble pull up. Nobody in the history has done it better. Just a small example of efficient movement. He's explained why the two dribble pull up is a more efficient and harder to defend move, as opposed to the single dribble pull up.

Catch and fade. Another move that he's perfected that few can match. He was specially deadly in the post, almost guaranteed. At times there's no dribble, in one motion he catches turns around and shoots.
Jerry West did it better. The only people who can possibly try to justify this claim are wearing extremely thick Jordan goggles. Jordan scored quick / efficient on possessions relative to the Kobe's and Iverson's of the 2000's who are well known to dribble more (too much IMO) in part because the style of the game has changed and also because these players abilities are slightly different than his, but just because he's quicker or more efficient then them (and whoever else your used to watching) does that mean he must be the "quickest / most efficient in NBA history" to do so? Hell no, why can't people be satisfied recognizing Jordan for what he actually was great for (great all around game)!? Learn more about your NBA history, it's not healthy to keep thinking that dude was the "greatest" at every minute thing you can possibly do on the floor - heck he probably wasn't the "greatest" at any 1 facet of the game the only reason he earns recognition as GOAT is because of his collective all around game. History is being re-written by ignorance - I swear people must watch his mixtapes or something and then study literally nobody else in NBA history. The dude was called "Air Jordan" he was a fan favorite not just for his stats but for his style and acrobatics for crying out loud he's not a minimalist on offense - not by any means at all, he is virtually the antithesis of that.

[andgar923]

Jerry West did it better. The only people who can possibly try to justify this claim are wearing extremely thick Jordan goggles. Jordan scored quick / efficient on possessions relative to the Kobe's and Iverson's of the 2000's who are well known to dribble more (too much IMO) in part because the style of the game has changed and also because these players abilities are slightly different than his, but just because he's quicker or more efficient then them (and whoever else your used to watching) does that mean he must be the "quickest / most efficient in NBA history" to do so? Hell no, why can't people be satisfied recognizing Jordan for what he actually was great for (great all around game)!? Learn more about your NBA history, it's not healthy to keep thinking that dude was the "greatest" at every minute thing you can possibly do on the floor - heck he probably wasn't the "greatest" at any 1 facet of the game the only reason he earns recognition as GOAT is because of his collective all around game. History is being re-written by ignorance - I swear people must watch his mixtapes or something and then study literally nobody else in NBA history. The dude was called "Air Jordan" he was a fan favorite not just for his stats but for his style and acrobatics for crying out loud he's not a minimalist on offense - not by any means at all, he is virtually the antithesis of that.


:applause:

[L.Kizzle]

Jordan, best lateral-quickness player.
Jordan, most fluid-friendly player

What else is Jordan the best at?

[poido123]

Efficient movement:

Ray Allen is by far the most energy efficient player I've seen with Reggie Miller right behind him.

I would also have Durant higher than Jordan among high scoring perimeter players that use a variation of moves. :biggums:

Jordan, like Earl Monroe, is the most fluid and graceful... but they lived off making moves.

Kareem was the best of guys that had to live off a move. Duncan the best of guys that did combo moves.

Of the slashers Jordan ranks very high... Worthy was a bit better. Bernard King is right there with Worthy.

Magic Johnson from a team perspective eliminated the need for a lot of moves from the offense, and like Kidd, rarely did something that wasn't needed.

This is off the top of my head.

Jordan has more variety of moves than Durant...He also is the better perimeter scorer than durant. It is fact, there's no debate.

[LBJFTW]

OP is is correct. MJ's game has no wasted motion in it. Any student of the game should study how MJ played. He is the pinnacle of technique and efficiency.

Wait a min, u mean MJ never did shit like this? :oldlol: :oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0

"Drifting around like a guy who doesn't need the ball."

[andgar923]

Jerry West did it better. The only people who can possibly try to justify this claim are wearing extremely thick Jordan goggles. Jordan scored quick / efficient on possessions relative to the Kobe's and Iverson's of the 2000's who are well known to dribble more (too much IMO) in part because the style of the game has changed and also because these players abilities are slightly different than his, but just because he's quicker or more efficient then them (and whoever else your used to watching) does that mean he must be the "quickest / most efficient in NBA history" to do so? Hell no, why can't people be satisfied recognizing Jordan for what he actually was great for (great all around game)!? Learn more about your NBA history, it's not healthy to keep thinking that dude was the "greatest" at every minute thing you can possibly do on the floor - heck he probably wasn't the "greatest" at any 1 facet of the game the only reason he earns recognition as GOAT is because of his collective all around game. History is being re-written by ignorance - I swear people must watch his mixtapes or something and then study literally nobody else in NBA history. The dude was called "Air Jordan" he was a fan favorite not just for his stats but for his style and acrobatics for crying out loud he's not a minimalist on offense - not by any means at all, he is virtually the antithesis of that.

I generally agree with your overall point. But the two dribble pull up is something that MJ's worked on and perfected through the years. Most players had a one dribble pull up, or a standing no dribble pull up. I'm not saying that Mj was the first, or the only one to be great at this shot. But MJ used it more and was very efficient at executing it. At least from the 80s and on.

I will concede that I haven't seen enough of the players prior to the 80s, but I doubt that it was worked on endlessly on this very shot. I may be wrong, but I doubt that I am or that you can prove that I am :confusedshrug:

Is it a crime or insult to believe that the consensus best player ever, the all time PPG scorer could also possibly be the best at that shot? considering that he made most of his living off that mid range pull up jumper?

I'll be more than willing to accept it if I see proof of somebody being more consistent and better at it.

Mj had the ability to hit you from any side, any angle, any position, from within the 3pt line. He could be leaning backwards, forwards, jump side ways, and create TONS of separation leaving defenders stuck on the floor at times. That isn't efficiency? One two dribbles BOOM, quick, explosive, precise, efficient.

Again, show me a player that has shot this as often and with the same amount of accuracy, and I'll eat my words.

You mentioned something that's utterly wrong.


The dude was called "Air Jordan" he was a fan favorite not just for his stats but for his style and acrobatics for crying out loud he's not a minimalist on offense - not by any means at all, he is virtually the antithesis of that

This is utter ignorance.

I shouldn't even have to explain why, but I respect you so I'll do so.

MJ's game wasn't based on flash, he states that himself. MJ's game had moments of flash, but go back and watch the game tapes, it was almost entirely based on fundamentals. Because you happen to catch that 1% of flash on highlight clips, doesn't mean that his entire game was based on flash.

Again, go watch the game tapes, he didn't hesitate, he didn't waste, he was precise like a surgeon (specially from 90 on). He incorporated everything his processors before him, but expanded on it. He incorporated his athleticism, modern day training, and high IQ. His attention to detail and hard work is legendary. So to assume that his game was built on flash and that it's a joke to believe he was the best at certain aspects is inaccurate.

[CavaliersFTW]

Jordan, best lateral-quickness player.
Jordan, most fluid-friendly player

What else is Jordan the best at?
Lateral quickness MJ is pretty high up there - but I still think Iverson and other smaller / equally athletic guards will always = superior lateral quickness just due to their physically lower gearing due to having shorter quicker legs

fluid-friendly (wtf? :oldlol: )fluidity? - Connie Hawkins

I like this idea let's all name some other things we can pretend MJ is the best at even though there were other players who could do it better :applause:

Free throw shooting? Pshh, take a back seat Nash / Price / Barry, MJ is in da haus!

3 point shooting? sit down Reggie / Allen / Kerr - MJ would kill u beyond the arc!

skill in the post? pfft McHale and Dream is dat da best u can do? MJ would shyt on u!

[Clifton]

The time it takes for MJ to score from when he gets the ball to when he scores s amazingly quick, and uses very less movement, which probably explains why MJ is able to still play at GOAT level when hes mid 30s.
Agreed. Not to mention, a strong all-star level player at 40. As a guard. Every once in a while a guard makes it to 40, but only to be "okay." Stockton was pretty good at 40. Jordan at 40 is a top 10 player today.

[DatAsh]

Jordan has more variety of moves than Durant...He also is the better perimeter scorer than durant. It is fact, there's no debate.

I think he meant in a way so as to say that Durant is generally less "flashy" in his movements, which is true. Durant doesn't have many offensive moves, he generally just shoots over the top of people, but it's extremely effective.

[Asukal]

Jordan didn't need to switch hands. The defender was nowhere near the ball and wasn't about to touch it. Take the Jordan goggles off. I will agree with his on-floor moves being economical in comparison to modern excessive dribblers like Kobe, Iverson, Westbrook etc - but they certainly aren't the "most efficient" of all time that's f*cking ridiculous and extremely ignorant to suggest especially considering how limited most peoples exposure is to NBA history and historical players here on ISH.

Style-less boring players like Oscar Robertson or Tim f*cking Duncan are the "movement efficient" players not high flyers like Jordan. Many players are more "movement-efficient" compared to Jordan FFS his in the air game was all style and fanfare NOT economy, and you don't need to even dunk to score points much less do cradle dunks or 3 mid-air fakes for a reverse layup - he could just lay it up like Oscar and been just as offensively dominant but he didn't play that way he added the completely unnecessary (but incredibly awesome to watch) crowd-gripping flair to it like Elgin Baylor Julius Erving or Connie Hawkins er-go he's not being "movement" efficent - in fact, his style of play in the air was the antithesis of economy - hence I seriously thought this thread was a joke but now that I see how serious most of you are I'm starting to realise this was just another routine circle-jerk thread where someone tries to suggest Jordan was the "best ever" at some insignificant aspect of the game and because nobody bothers to look up other players in NBA history nobody here has a clue that he shouldn't even be in this discussion.

What was Jordan? He was collectively an ultra-complete player probably the most complete ever along side Oscar Robertson except he played in an era of 3 point lines so he even 1 ups Oscar with a 3 point shot by virtue of the era he was in plus with the aforementioned style points he gets (which counts as something to some people) he's widely considered the best player ever - he's the total package on both ends of the floor - but he wasn't "The Best" at every little trivial facet of the game your imaginations come up with. He's the best total package, he's not the best at everything. And he's definitely not the most "movement efficient" player ever - his in air game is way too dramatic to even begin to suggest that.

I totally agree with this.

Jordan wasn't the most efficient, but he was the best at creating his own shot.

[Dbrog]

Agreed. Not to mention, a strong all-star level player at 40. As a guard. Every once in a while a guard makes it to 40, but only to be "okay." Stockton was pretty good at 40. Jordan at 40 is a top 10 player today.

GTFO :no:

[Pointguard]

Jordan has more variety of moves than Durant...He also is the better perimeter scorer than durant. It is fact, there's no debate.
They aren't talking about that. They are talking about who did what they were trying to do efficiently. Other words... you give Durant the ball and two seconds later its done.


2 dribble pull up. Nobody in the history has done it better. Just a small example of efficient movement. He's explained why the two dribble pull up is a more efficient and harder to defend move, as opposed to the single dribble pull up.

Catch and fade. Another move that he's perfected that few can match. He was specially deadly in the post, almost guaranteed. At times there's no dribble, in one motion he catches turns around and shoots.
You must be talking about Bernard King.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vlFxT009Sc

I like what Bill Russell had to say about Duncan in this interview (www.nba.com/spurs/multimedia/russell_duncan_pt9.html) starting at the 5:56 mark..."The most efficient player in the NBA. No wasted motion, and no wasted emotion."
Thanks, thought I was alone in this thought.

[andgar923]

You must be talking about Bernard King.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vlFxT009Sc



Which is why I didn't state that MJ was the best at it.

[LBJFTW]

You must be talking about Bernard King.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vlFxT009Sc

Ewing who? LOL @ 51 point Ewing game high vs King's 60 points, followed by another 55.

Snicker commercial needs to be changed to "King Chewing" :oldlol:

[Derivative]

goat

[gin17]

true, but i think the most movement-efficient here should be larry bird

[Derivative]

OP is is correct. MJ's game has no wasted motion in it. Any student of the game should study how MJ played. He is the pinnacle of technique and efficiency.

this

[CavaliersFTW]

this
Jordan's game has TON'S of inefficient movements in it wtf are u guys even talking about? Half the time he has ever done 3 fakes in a row all that was needed was one or sometimes even NONE to get the shot off. How bout changing his hands in mid-air? FFS Movement efficient players are players who DON'T HAVE STYLE. Jordan is the ANTITHESIS of movement efficient players. He emulated guys like Dr. J, David Thompson and Elgin Baylor. Players who tomahawk dunk, display excessive hang time and body control in the air are NOT MOVEMENT EFFICIENT. They are hotdoggers. If you get "ooh's" and "ahhh's" from the crowd chances are your doing something excessive. If you want to watch "movement efficiency" watch fundamental ball players that avoid entertaining plays like Oscar Robertson or Tim Duncan and be prepared to be put to sleep with how "efficient" they make a layup with the least amount of bodily movement possible. It's embarrassing this thread even exists because OP and all those who agree'd must not have any idea how other players are able to play the game of basketball outside MJ (IE how much LESS their body's are required to move around in order to score the same amount of points / assists / etc during a given game). Heck even the way MJ dribbles is incredibly wasteful as far as movement efficiency goes, when he goes between his legs and changes direction. It's a showcase of his athleticism to put fear in the opponents and entertain the crowd - it's deliberately excessive, and completely and deliberately by design - inefficient.

Can't believe someone like Kblaze hasn't shown up and ethered this thread yet. He usually comes in when someone seriously tries to pass off ideas that are polar opposite of the truth.

[La Frescobaldi]

Worthy and Bernard King were definitely more efficient than Bird and MJ. Not even questionable. King didn't even pump fake or head fake. Worthy was just a head fake and then a blur. And both only employed two dribbles a majority of the time. You can't do it any cleaner than those guys.

That sentence perfectly describes James Worthy.

He's incredibly underrated because he always played within his team and clearly detested the scoring hog style a la Carmelo Anthony type garbage.
He was one of the most unguardable players in NBA history.

[chopchop20]

Tony Parker anyone? :confusedshrug:

[Derivative]

bump

[BoutPractice]

Forgetting about Jordan for a minute... I strongly disagree about the broader point being made here that movement efficiency is something "trivial" or "meaningless" - it's the very opposite, especially on offense where effort is much less important than smart execution and results. The idea that energy is a resource you manage in the long term (both over the course of 48 minutes and the course of a season) and everything you do on the court should be purposeful is one of the keys to winning (explains a lot of the Spurs' continued success). Just ask Bill Russell. It's also one of the biggest reasons why veterans you think should be done just don't go away, and keep schooling young and hungry players. Why a Larry Bird can kill you with a bad back, and a Paul Pierce can embarrass you with an old man fake. The problem is that "hard work" is too often seen as the ultimate value: if you're sweating, you're necessarily doing something good, it sometimes seems. But what if you're sweating for nothing at all?

Contrast JaVale McGee and Tim Duncan, or old KG on offense. McGee is running all over the place, sometimes in the wrong direction, and he'll end the game with 10/5 and 3 turnovers. Duncan will look like a Buddha statue out there, and end up with an efficient 20/10.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The OP is talking about plays like this, which are plays that perhaps one or two other players in history (I'm thinking Bird and...who knows) would even think about making:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIBW4UQk3J8#t=2m19s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwfOrk2OWtg#t=5m59s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R09hwtyXqjY#t=6m59s (ridiculous usage of defender momentum and working against the defender's vision to get open)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwjI6DEcfOw#t=5m40s (crazy off ball movement and using the defender's vision/momemntum against him again, then the catch and INSTANT recognition of the gap to the basket, slight escape dribble, and shielding the ball against Ewing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO6KqxakuUg#t=2m40s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofmo24VMVQE#t=7m45s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGTdIz2n8DY#t=5m21s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xso1KXY7ok#t=3m49s


There is no one in the history of the game besides Bird imo who had the court awareness, knowledge of defenders' momentum/positioning, quickness of reaction and making the appropriate play, and understanding of spacing to make these types of plays.

You will literally NEVER see these types of plays from any modern player, and if you really understand basketball, you will understand what you're seeing in these clips: lightning fast reads and reactions and court awareness on a level achieved by just a couple of players when it comes to scoring the ball (and by only one or two others - notably Magic - when it comes to making plays for others). I could post literally dozens of such plays that you will never see any modern player make.

[Jailblazers7]

lol some of this is a little ridiculous. So modern players NEVER use the momentum of their defenders against them or quickly react to the position of the defense off the catch?

I get that a lot of guys are ballstoppers these days who spend a second or two sizing up the defense but let's not act like MJ making a smart play off a curl or something is unheard of. Ray Allen has consistently made plays like the clips you showed of MJ reading defenses pretty much his entire career.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol some of this is a little ridiculous. So modern players NEVER use the momentum of their defenders against them or quickly react to the position of the defense off the catch?

I get that a lot of guys are ballstoppers these days who spend a second or two sizing up the defense but let's not act like MJ making a smart play off a curl or something is unheard of. Ray Allen has consistently made plays like the clips you showed of MJ reading defenses pretty much his entire career.

Ray Allen makes SOME types of plays like that, but only in certain situations where he is most comfortable (coming off screens and making a quick catch and shoot or simple fake, one dribble, then a shot). Ray Allen certainly does not see gaps in the defense that quickly. And he's not the type of modern player/superstar I'm referring to anyway, partly because he has half a foot in the old generation of players and half modern, and partly because his style of play (post '06, at least) is nothing like today's superstars.

Show me Kobe, Wade, Bron, Melo, anyone hyped up today making reads like that both on and off the ball, that quickly and executing so flawlessly. You can't. It's elegant basketball on a level they can't touch.

[Micku]

That sentence perfectly describes James Worthy.

He's incredibly underrated because he always played within his team and clearly detested the scoring hog style a la Carmelo Anthony type garbage.
He was one of the most unguardable players in NBA history.

Yeah. James Worthy was very quick. I think Rodman called him the toughest player to guard because once he makes that first step, he already beat you.

You watch any James Worthy games, he hardly ever holds the ball for long. He'll make his move almost the instant he touch the ball, and it's over.

[Jailblazers7]

Ray Allen makes SOME types of plays like that, but only in certain situations where he is most comfortable (coming off screens and making a quick catch and shoot or simple fake, one dribble, then a shot). Ray Allen certainly does not see gaps in the defense that quickly. And he's not the type of modern player/superstar I'm referring to anyway, partly because he has half a foot in the old generation of players and half modern, and partly because his style of play (post '06, at least) is nothing like today's superstars.

Show me Kobe, Wade, Bron, Melo, anyone hyped up today making reads like that both on and off the ball, that quickly and executing so flawlessly. You can't. It's elegant basketball on a level they can't touch.

Steph Curry does it, Tony Parker does it, Durant does it (altho he has become more ball dominant), and I'm sure there are others that do that I am letting slip by. Hell even Kobe has done shit like that but it was just a lot more common when he operated in the triangle with Phil.

Nobody does it at the level Jordan did because....he was the best ever. But that doesn't mean people are incapable of it. Jordan, Bird, and Magic aren't the only people who ever understood the game and played smarter than their competition. Jordan was the best because he was always sharp and consistently read defenses correctly but that doesn't mean other players (including the current generation) NEVER make these types of plays based on court awareness and intelligent off-ball movement.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Steph Curry does it, Tony Parker does it, Durant does it (altho he has become more ball dominant), and I'm sure there are others that do that I am letting slip by. Hell even Kobe has done shit like that but it was just a lot more common when he operated in the triangle with Phil.

Nobody does it at the level Jordan did because....he was the best ever. But that doesn't mean people are incapable of it. Jordan, Bird, and Magic aren't the only people who ever understood the game and played smarter than their competition. Jordan was the best because he was always sharp and consistently read defenses correctly but that doesn't mean other players (including the current generation) NEVER make these types of plays based on court awareness and intelligent off-ball movement.

Give me a video of such a play from Kobe/Lebron/Wade. Parker I've seen do some stuff, but not as frequently and not at the same level.

[f0und]

i forgot who it was but there was an interview with one of his teammates that said this exact same thing. that it doesnt take long for jordan to make a move and get off a shot. today players pound the ball, do fancy and1 dribbles, go around multiple screens, do a million pump fakes, and then put up the shot. jordan's game was much more simpler and to the point.

one dribble left, pull up

pump fake, one dribble right, pull up

jab step, go right and straight to the basket

one dribble, explodes past defender, jumps, hangs in the paint, puts up shot

in the post, two dribbles, shoulder fakes one way, spins the other, puts up a fadeaway.

[Jailblazers7]

Give me a video of such a play from Kobe/Lebron/Wade. Parker I've seen do some stuff, but not as frequently and not at the same level.

I really don't have time to be searching youtube for these clips just so I can prove a point on the internet. I probably shouldn't even be posting considering I am at work lol. I stand by what I said but I'm not going to spend my time searching game footage on youtube so I can post a handful of links showing that Kobe/Lebron/Wade know how to play basketball.

[f0und]

I really don't have time to be searching youtube for these clips just so I can prove a point on the internet. I probably shouldn't even be posting considering I am at work lol. I stand by what I said but I'm not going to spend my time searching game footage on youtube so I can post a handful of links showing that Kobe/Lebron/Wade know how to play basketball.


there's no doubt that you can find videos of kobe/wade/bron doing similar moves. the difference is, is that jordan made his living playing like this. the others do not.

[Jailblazers7]

there's no doubt that you can find videos of kobe/wade/bron doing similar moves. the difference is, is that jordan made his living playing like this. the others do not.

I'm never said anything to indicate otherwise. Jordan became known as the best ever because his game was always sharp and did things on a consistent basis that other could only do it spurts.

But the first post I responded to said "You will literally NEVER see these types of plays from any modern player" which is why I said that some of what is being said is silly.

[Soundwave]

I don't think Kobe needs toilet wipes to clean his ass, he has your tongue to do that for him, but that's not the point.. I agree about Jordan doing it effortlessly but it's not as easy as it looks.. He just makes it look easy..
:lol :lol

[f0und]

I'm never said anything to indicate otherwise. Jordan became known as the best ever because his game was always sharp and did things on a consistent basis that other could only do it spurts.

But the first post I responded to said "You will literally NEVER see these types of plays from any modern player" which is why I said that some of what is being said is silly.

agree

that is silly

[Derivative]

bump

[CavaliersFTW]

bump
Not sure why you bumped? This notion is still just as untrue now as it was when it was first posted. Michael Jordan is a flashy player, not a movement efficient one. An above the rim guard who triple fakes in the air is the polar opposite of a player who's game could be categorized as 'movement efficient'. A totally unflashy minimalist/purist like a Tim Duncan, or an Oscar Robertson type player are what movement efficient players play like.

[secund2nun]

20 years from now people are gonna be talking about how MJ single handedly beat the Western Conference All stars in a 1 on 5 game.

What should tomorrow's thread be about? How MJ had the most efficient muscle cells in world history?

[Angel Face]

MJ making the game of basketball look simple. Truly the GOAT. So smooth. :bowdown:

[diamenz]

mj was poetry in motion. nothing wasted, nothing exaggerated. it's wat separates him from the rest as goat.

[SHAQisGOAT]

If anything I think Bird is the epitome of no wasted motion on a basketball court (co-relating with great play of course).

[JohnFreeman]

MJ was one of the best off the ball players ever

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ was one of the best off the ball players ever
I've always felt, and other pro players have echoed this too that players who are active off the ball are more difficult to guard than players who primarily do all their damage ball in hand, or who have to dribble a lot just to get into rhythm offensively.

[JohnFreeman]

I've always felt, and other pro players have echoed this too that players who are active off the ball are more difficult to guard than players who primarily do all their damage ball in hand, or who have to dribble a lot just to get into rhythm offensively.
Imagine guarding MJ, Reggie or Allen. Fighting through screens, chasing them around the court would be tough.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Imagine guarding MJ, Reggie or Allen. Fighting through screens, chasing them around the court would be tough.
You ever play pickup against the old, non athletic white guy who does this? I have a tougher time guarding him than the kid who wants dribble non stop in front of me before making a move only for me to take his cookies.

[JohnFreeman]

You ever play pickup against the old, non athletic white guy who does this? I have a tougher time guarding him than the kid who wants dribble non stop in front of me before making a move only for me to take his cookies.
Yep I know the type. Smart basketball.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Imagine guarding MJ, Reggie or Allen. Fighting through screens, chasing them around the court would be tough.

Jordan actually wasn't anything like Reggie or Allen off the ball despite being a brilliant off the ball player. He relied more on using guys' momentum and vision against them (often setting them up with deft footwork) and making one or two quick cuts rather than endlessly running around a series of screens to get free. He was a much more intuitive and decisive off ball player than either of them. Reggie would run around for 5-8 seconds to get a few feet of space for a shot. Jordan could make one or two moves and get the same or better separation for a shot because he knew how to use players' momentum and vision against them better. Only Bird was similar to MJ in this respect. People seriously underrate how good MJ was off the ball.

[JohnFreeman]

Jordan actually wasn't anything like Reggie or Allen off the ball despite being a brilliant off the ball player. He relied more on using guys' momentum and vision against them (often setting them up with deft footwork) and making one or two quick cuts rather than endlessly running around a series of screens to get free. He was a much more intuitive and decisive off ball player than either of them. Reggie would run around for 5-8 seconds to get a few feet of space for a shot. Jordan could make one or two moves and get the same or better separation for a shot because he knew how to use players' momentum and vision against them better. Only Bird was similar to MJ in this respect. People seriously underrate how good MJ was off the ball.
I just said that those three players would be hard to defend off the ball..

[Derivative]

curry?