Lebron has the best ever combination of offense/defense/rebounding/playmaking?

[pauk]

...that other offense/rebounding/defense thread got me thinking....

Think about it guys....... The only thing Lebron is not extremly great at is that pure shooting part.... but overall Lebron just might be that way the most complete player we have ever seen..... you add in versatility (which he can argue for being the best ever at aswell much due to that combination above), leadership/intangibles, athleticism combination (which he can argue for being the best ever at aswell) and so on....

Would you agree? If not, then who could it possibly be that had better combination of offense/rebounding/defense/playmaking?

Oscar? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Larry? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Magic? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Pippen? To much lack of offense compared to Lebron...

Jordan? Less rebounding/playmaking but more scoring compared to Lebron... but he indeed is a legit #2 i would say overall...

Now ofcourse it doesnt mean he without a doubt is the best talent ever or the most impactful player ever.... but that he might possess what i say here simply the best combination of offense/defense/rebounding/playmaking... ever...

[b1imtf]

Nop

[pauk]

lebron doesnt even have a great skill set!!! he has poor feet, his technique is rubbish, average dribble, his shooting is frikin hit and miss.

hes just an athletic phenom that relies on bulldozing over his opponents.

That is just idiotic/arrogant/ignorant... even you (you Lebron hating Kobe stans) know deep down inside you aint that stupid ...

[pauk]

Nop

Oh, now that was one insightful and intellectual type of a response i was looking for.... care to elaborate or is that your final conclusion?

[NumberSix]

Nop
FAIL! Die.

[pauk]

If you disagree... then please oh please i beg you please tell me one player who had a better combination of offense/defense/rebounding/playmaking.......... thats all i want... a simply NO/disagreement i consider is just ignorant...

[b1imtf]

Oh, now that was one insightful and intellectual type of a response i was looking for.... care to elaborate or is that your final conclusion?
I'm not trolling, I just think Jordan was better overall, except for rebounding

[pauk]

so in your eyes lebron has great footwork

ok

No! But its not horrible either and to use footwork to strip down Lebron of this title is just stupid, it just doesnt make sense whatsoever....... how can freakin "FOOTWORK" devaluate Lebron having the best combination of offense/defense/rebounding/playmaking??? Think about it, that has to be the most stupid thing ever.... no pun intended...

Meanwhile, please present me with your one player who you think had the best combination of offense/rebounding/defense/playmaking.......... ?

[pauk]

I'm not trolling, I just think Jordan was better overall, except for rebounding

You think he was a better playmaker aswell? Oh man........

[b1imtf]

You think he was a better playmaker aswell? Oh man........

But Jordan i consider is that one guy right up there with Lebron... what he lacked for in rebounding/playmaking he made up for offensively...
Not a better passer, but I think he made the right play more often than LeBron (who does it pretty damn often)

[pauk]

Not a better passer, but I think he made the right play more often than LeBron (who does it pretty damn often)

With playmaker i am talking about this = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

Thats the type of playmaker Jordan is dealing with it here...

[b1imtf]

With playmaker i am talking about this = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

Thats the type of playmaker Jordan is dealing with it here...
My bad. I tought you meant playmaking as in the combination of passing/creating your and others' shots

[Owl]

I would have went with Wilt on those criteria. If you go with '67 Wilt you get RPG leader, Fg% and ts% leader, assists and assists per game 3rd, points total 3rd, ppg 5th and elite shot blocking/defense.

Anyway regarding Jordan versus LeBron on these criteria it would depend on whether you're saying who is least worst in the weakest area (which might be implied by having the "combination" of those four facets) or the combined impact from those areas.

[Overdrive]

...that other offense/rebounding/defense thread got me thinking....

Think about it guys....... The only thing Lebron is not extremly great at is that pure shooting part.... but overall Lebron just might be that way the most complete player we have ever seen..... you add in versatility (which he can argue for being the best ever at aswell much due to that combination above), leadership/intangibles, athleticism combination (which he can argue for being the best ever at aswell) and so on....

Would you agree? If not, then who could it possibly be that had better combination of offense/rebounding/defense/playmaking?

Oscar? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Larry? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Magic? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Pippen? To much lack of offense compared to Lebron...

Jordan? Less rebounding/playmaking but more scoring compared to Lebron... but he indeed is a legit #2 i would say overall...

Now ofcourse it doesnt mean he without a doubt is the best talent ever or the most impactful player ever.... but that he might possess what i say here simply the best combination of offense/defense/rebounding/playmaking... ever...

I think he got one of the greatest combinations of almost everything important in basketball, but you make it sound like he is the best at scoring, rebounding, playmaking and defense.

I'd rather have one scorer, one playmaker, one rebounder and one defender on my team than Lebron and three scrubs, because he isn't the best at scoring, the best at defending, the best at playmaking and the best at rebounding.

Being almost the best at everything isn't good enough if you don't pair it with a few specialists either. Lebron atleast needs some shooters to surround him.

So this "almost best at everything award" is useless and you're just trying to push him infront of players like Jordan etc.

[Segatti]

Bird has better offense, rebounding and playmaking than Lebron, but he 'lack of defense'. Easy to make a thread and do arbitrary parameters to it.

[RaininTwos]

Bird has better offense, rebounding and playmaking than Lebron, but he 'lack of defense'. Easy to make a thread and do arbitrary parameters to it.
Lol at this being arbitrary. What else can you do on a court other play offense/defense,rebound and create for others ?

[Segatti]

Lol at this being arbitrary. What else can you do on a court other play offense/defense,rebound and create for others ?

Arbitrary in praising exactly what Lebron does best. Jordan was a better offensive player and defensive but he is not good enough because of rebounds and assists. Bird was better in everything but defense therefore he is worse, Pippen was better in defense worse in offense so Lebron is better... you get my point.

[NumberSix]

niqqas is mad

[Kblaze8855]

Even if we ignore that Oscar was considered a great defender by many and led the league in assists and scoring and rebounded as well as any guard ever....

Wilt was arguably the best offensive, defensive, and rebounding player in the league and in the discussion for best ever at all 3....and lead the NBa in assists and was second another year.

He stat padded to do it...but still.

And Hakeem was to me...arguably a better offensive and defensive player and a better rebounder and while he of course lacks playmaking as a center....his edge in other areas makes up for it to me.

Lebron is in the discussion. No reason to put him over a Wilt or Hakeem who can be argued to be better in 3 of the 4 areas in question.

[Overdrive]

I wonder on a 0 to 10 scale how you would rate Lebron's, Oscar's and the Top10 goats Offense, Defense, Rebounding and playmaking?

I mean if you give Lebron an 8 in everything it would add up to 32.
If you for example give Jordan a 10 on offense and defense, a 6 in rebounding and playmaking he would also have 32, although being worse at latter two.

[Segatti]

Lebron: 27/8/6 (2012)
Shaq: 29/13/4 (2000)

Shaq had better offense, much more rebounds, better defense (being a center), and two less assists.

[Dragonyeuw]

He could very well be. In terms of where Jordan comes into things, I think the biggest gap in their abilities is Jordan being a much more versatile/dominant/alpha scoring threat. The difference in their scoring ability is bigger than the difference in their rebounding/passing skills imo. Jordan was a very strong rebounder, and his passing is underrated. Not the passer Lebron is obviously, but he was a very good passer. It's just one of those things that was overshadowed because of his scoring acumen.

[B-hoop]

He could very well be. In terms of where Jordan comes into things, I think the biggest gap in their abilities is Jordan being a much more versatile/dominant/alpha scoring threat. The difference in their scoring ability is bigger than the difference in their rebounding/passing skills imo. Jordan was a very strong rebounder, and his passing is underrated. Not the passer Lebron is obviously, but he was a very good passer. It's just one of those things that was overshadowed because of his scoring acumen.

Just watch Games 1 and 2 of the '91 finals and you will see how good Jordan was at passing/playmaking when he wanted to.

[pegasus]

lebron doesnt even have a great skill set!!! he has poor feet, his technique is rubbish, average dribble, his shooting is frikin hit and miss.

hes just an athletic phenom that relies on bulldozing over his opponents.

I agree with this. He's got great court vision, but everything else is at an all-star level at best. And his one-on-one defense is disgustingly overrated. He is allowed to hit, push, and shove, and even then he can still be taken off the dribble (another sign of having poor feet). He is a good help defender, though.

And yes, bulldozing over his opponents is like 50% of his offensive arsenal.

[ripthekik]

what a piece of shiit thread. this douchebag automatically added in playmaking so that centers are not in the discussion.

the only reason lebron seems to have an advantage is like someone on the first page said, he bulldozes over others because of his body and athleticism. Skills? this guy ain't got much.

[Sarcastic]

He's a "jack of all trades, master of none" type of player. I guess you can look at that both positively and negatively.

[nathanjizzle]

lebron does not have great basketball skills, he has good basketball skills accompanied by a freak athletic body, allows him to dominate the way he does. lebron is a backseat leader.

[Dragonyeuw]

Just watch Games 1 and 2 of the '91 finals and you will see how good Jordan was at passing/playmaking when he wanted to.

Saw it back in 91.:D

[ripthekik]

lebron does not have great basketball skills, he has good basketball skills accompanied by a freak athletic body, allows him to dominate the way he does. lebron is a backseat leader.
:applause: this

[KOBE143]

LOL at LeBron overrated playmaking.. Any player not pf or center type, given the same role as him (iso ball 24/7 in the top of the key before passing it to his teammates, thats comprise LeBron's playmaking) will be as good or better than him in playmaking.. LeBron is not even top 10 in the league in playmaking.. So OP stop sucking LeBrick Dikk..

[iamgine]

...that other offense/rebounding/defense thread got me thinking....

Think about it guys....... The only thing Lebron is not extremly great at is that pure shooting part.... but overall Lebron just might be that way the most complete player we have ever seen..... you add in versatility (which he can argue for being the best ever at aswell much due to that combination above), leadership/intangibles, athleticism combination (which he can argue for being the best ever at aswell) and so on....

Would you agree? If not, then who could it possibly be that had better combination of offense/rebounding/defense/playmaking?

Oscar? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Larry? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Magic? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...
Pippen? To much lack of offense compared to Lebron...

Jordan? Less rebounding/playmaking but more scoring compared to Lebron... but he indeed is a legit #2 i would say overall...

Now ofcourse it doesnt mean he without a doubt is the best talent ever or the most impactful player ever.... but that he might possess what i say here simply the best combination of offense/defense/rebounding/playmaking... ever...
How bout KG...less playmaking/scoring but better defense/rebounding

[Nash]

With playmaker i am talking about this = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

Thats the type of playmaker Jordan is dealing with it here...
I love those playmaking videos. Now I do enjoy dunks and freaky plays like everyone but videos like that are amazing. Such a beautiful art.

And I don't know if Lebron is the best or not but usually experts call him the most versatile player.

[AlphaWolf24]

Lebron: 27/8/6 (2012)
Shaq: 29/13/4 (2000)

Shaq had better offense, much more rebounds, better defense (being a center), and two less assists.


better defense?....

not even close....Shaq's defense was lacking to say the least///LBJ is a much better overall defender


Tex Winter: "There were times when we played pretty good defense. Defense in pro ball is predicated on the support around the basket, the big man. Even though Shaq was a big presence, he was not a great shot blocker. And he didn't like to play the screen and roll, so he put his teammates in jeopardy. He didn't like to help. He liked to lay back off his man.

"Shaq defeated himself against Detroit. He played way too passively. He had one big game. Outside of that he didn't do much. His boxing out and rebounding in the series was awful. He had one assist in one of the Finals games. He's always been interested in being a scorer, but he hasn't had nearly enough concentration on defense and rebounding."


from aHOF and one of the greatest asketball minds ever...

[coin24]

What a surprise, pauk with the bronzey jerk off thread and replies with his other accounts:lol You sad, pathetic retard:oldlol:
Lebron has the best combo of choking/shitty footwork and unreliable jumper/ overrated playmaking/biggest headbands/dumbest stans/athleticism.

[Replay32]

So Lebron doesn't have great basketball skills now. Oh Lord. :roll:

:facepalm

Anyway...I regards to the OP. Lebron is a great all around player, he's not the best ever, but his all around impact on a basketball team can't be denied. He's a beast.

[lakerspng]

LeBron is a great overall player. Jordan, Magic, Oscar are all superior.

[LakersReign]

What a surprise, pauk with the bronzey jerk off thread and replies with his other accounts:lol You sad, pathetic retard:oldlol:
Lebron has the best combo of choking/shitty footwork and unreliable jumper/ overrated playmaking/biggest headbands/dumbest stans/athleticism.

You know that's how sad Lebronytes on here are. ALWAYS spouting innuendo and suppositions cuz they CAN'T back up anything they say with actual proof. So they have to go agree with themselves, thinking they can fool reasonable people into buying their crap. Lebron is a great athlete, but the CONSTANT overrating by his fan(atic)s, is pathetic:facepalm

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt Chamberain in his 1967 season had "the best ever" combination of the aforementioned things in the OP, but Lebron James is as close as it has gotten in the modern era

[LamarOdom]

MJ was a better offensive rebounder and is about 3-4 incher shorter than LBJ.

If LeBron is better rebounder than MJ which he isn't it isn't by a big margin.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Larry? To much lack of defense compared to Lebron...



:facepalm

Too much? Don't even say that, bet you never saw Bird playing, Larry had great defensive impact, agree that LeBron is the better defensive player though, but what gives him the edge is his athleticism.
Plus Bird's offense > LeBron's offense (including everything you can do on offense) and Bird's rebounding > LeBron's rebounding.

Your LeBron d!kriding just keeps on, and keeps on getting worse.




better defense?....

not even close....Shaq's defense was lacking to say the least///LBJ is a much better overall defender



Please, Shaq was a really good defensive player around '00.

[Money 23]

MJ was a better offensive rebounder and is about 3-4 incher shorter than LBJ.

If LeBron is better rebounder than MJ which he isn't it isn't by a big margin.
Agreed. I don't even think the playmaking portion is as significant as it's made out to be.

Meanwhile MJ is a much better scorer, better shooter, better man defender (possibly help defender), and better off the ball player.

LeBron's a more versatile defender. I don't know if that makes him better or equal in that category, though.

[tmacattack33]

Maybe. But it doesn't matter.

Prime MJ's scoring was so great that it makes him the best. Same with prime Shaq.

So, Lebron might not have anything below an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 in the categories mentioned, but it doesn't matter. I'd take MJ's 10's in scoring and defense along with his 7 in rebounding over Lebron's 9 in scoring, 9 in defense, and 8 in rebounding.

Also, scoring is probably more important than rebounding (especially for wing players). And defense and playmaking aren't exactly the same value either.

[Money 23]

So, Lebron might not have anything below an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 in the categories mentioned, but it doesn't matter. I'd take MJ's 10's in scoring and defense along with his 7 in rebounding over Lebron's 9 in scoring, 9 in defense, and 8 in rebounding.
Exactly the point. Will rep when opportunity is available.

LeBron is a jack of all trades, master of none. MJ was almost on the same level as LeBron in terms of all around versatility of game.

While also being a complete master at scoring and defending. Thus it puts him over the top. MJ's superior ability at scoring, an defense puts him above LeBron significantly in those categories that extends beyond LeBron's marginal superiority in less significant categories.

[LBJ 23]

He's not the best but he's certainly somewhere near the top

[Magic 32]

If you disagree... then please oh please i beg you please tell me one player who had a better combination of offense/defense/rebounding/playmaking.......... thats all i want... a simply NO/disagreement i consider is just ignorant...

Best all-around car?

Who cares. I want a Ferrari.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1202/athletes.license.plates/images/michael-jordan-biever.jpg

[tmacattack33]

Exactly the point. Will rep when opportunity is available.

LeBron is a jack of all trades, master of none. MJ was almost on the same level as LeBron in terms of all around versatility of game.

While also being a complete master at scoring and defending. Thus it puts him over the top. MJ's superior ability at scoring, an defense puts him above LeBron significantly in those categories that extends beyond LeBron's marginal superiority in less significant categories.

He's definitely a master of passing. Top 5 today, maybe top 3. Definitely top 25 of all time in passing.

[pauk]

Valid points fellas, well thats just my opinion, take it as you wish, i think Jordan is the only guy right up there in this cherrypicked department...

[Money 23]

He's definitely a master of passing. Top 5 today, maybe top 3. Definitely top 25 of all time in passing.
Fair enough. But while a category that I think is very important, and re-freshing that makes LeBron unique in a post MJ basketball world where many for a time were too focused on attempting to score 30+ ppg, albeit at the expense of low percentage shooting ... I take MJ's skill as a scorer over LeBron's wizardry of passing.

[pauk]

He's definitely a master of passing. Top 5 today, maybe top 3. Definitely top 25 of all time in passing.

He is definitely a master of passing (passing skills/court vision)...

I think top 3 (Nash, Lebron and Rondo), just take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

I am speaking of passing skills/court vision alone, passing/vision should not be confused with a starting PG doing nothing but giving up the ball 24-7, even sometimes when he is entirely open for a layup *cough* Rondo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4fuSieh2ro) *cough*


...and why is he not a master of scoring? He has the 3rd highest PPG average ever and is the youngest ever to every scoring milestone from 1000 pts to 19000 points and on best pace in NBA history to shatter Kareems scoring total... he does all this while averaging 7 apg.... at one point even closer to 9 apg... im sure if he didnt pass so much he would average more... Sure he didnt master it as good as Jordan did or better than Jordan (but who did?) but he does master that department...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

not be confused with a starting PG doing nothing but giving up the ball 24-7, even sometimes when he is entirely open for a layup *cough* Rondo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4fuSieh2ro) *cough*

Lol, stat-padding POS. Dude is mad fun to watch but this sorta thing irks me.

I agree w/ others that Lebron is the most unique talent post MJ - and conversely better all-around. What separates the two is Jordan's half-court scoring and defense, even if less versatile.

[Money 23]

Top Five Passers (in no particular order)

Nash
LeBron
CP3
Rondo
Kidd



I agree w/ others that Lebron is the most unique talent post MJ - and a better all-around player than Jordan. What separates the two is Jordan's half-court scoring and defense, even if less varied.
That half-court scoring ability is the ultimate combo of athleticism, strength, quickness off the dribble, post game, mid and long range jumper, foot work, shot selection, and basketball IQ (reading defenses)

It has been matched maybe only by Larry Bird, but to a lesser extent due to not having the physical capabilities MJ had ... that's why he's the ultimate playoff / Finals performer.

On the big stage, they slow the game down, defenses ugly the game up ... teams take more time to do things, and pay closer attention. Yet still MJ was always to raise his game higher than his normal standards, even when the competition got BETTER and MORE FOCUSED.

:biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Top Five Passers (in no particular order)

Nash
LeBron
CP3
Rondo
Kidd


That half-court scoring ability is the ultimate combo of athleticism, skill, mid and long range jumper, foot work, shot selection, and basketball IQ (reading defenses)

It has been matched maybe only by Larry Bird, but to a lesser extent due to not having the physical capabilities MJ had ... that's why he's the ultimate playoff / Finals performer.

On the big stage, they slow the game down, defenses ugly the game up ... teams take more time to do things, and pay closer attention. Yet still MJ was always to raise his game higher than his normal standards, even when the competition got BETTER and MORE FOCUSED.

:biggums:

Yep. From a scoring perspective, MJ blows Lebron out of the water. Guy had Larry Bird's skill with Lebron-like athleticism.

It's no wonder he still holds all those playoff scoring records (highest finals average, highest average in a 3 and 5 game series, most career playoff games scoring above 50 , etc).

[crisoner]

The LeBron Generation........

:facepalm

[Nash]

He's a "jack of all trades, master of none" type of player. I guess you can look at that both positively and negatively.
Master of none? I mean really? :facepalm

[Overdrive]

...and why is he not a master of scoring? He has the 3rd highest PPG average ever and is the youngest ever to every scoring milestone from 1000 pts to 19000 points and on best pace in NBA history to shatter Kareems scoring total... he does all this while averaging 7 apg.... at one point even closer to 9 apg... im sure if he didnt pass so much he would average more... Sure he didnt master it as good as Jordan did or better than Jordan (but who did?) but he does master that department...

First of ll we know all the "new" rules made perimeter scoring easier. Lebron's ppg will fall off unless he retires in his prime, which means his total will not be in the top 10 and he is not that great of a scorer other comparable perimeter talents were. His style is reliant on fast offense execution and his PPG drops, when half court play get more important and zone defenses are set up. He's no shooter that's his biggest problem in his offensive arsenal, but I think he can add that.

[pauk]

The LeBron Generation........

:facepalm

Really not trying to be a stan... but this Lebron guy is very unique my man, very unique... If only he could also shoot 40% 3pt and 90% ft then we would literally have a NBA 2K13 created player with all sliders set to 99.... :D

[Money 23]

Guy had Larry Bird's skill with Lebron-like athleticism.
Yup. Exactly.

But in my opinion, greater athleticism (or more applicable for basketball) than LeBron.

Sure LeBron has a bigger frame, but I don't necessarily think he's a stronger finisher than MJ. MJ could take contact and finish plays, while also having superior dexterity and creative body control to contort and bend around defenders to finish at the rim.

In addition to that ... I think they key thing separating MJ from LeBron in terms of athleticism, especially as it pertains to half court / slowed down playoff structure. MJ could blow by people off the dribble, even as a 35 year old. He was nimble, lighting quick. 6'6 with an acceleration like Rose, Wade or Iverson.

LeBron post 2010 has struggled mightily with this and it has affected his abilities to score in the half court. If you pay attention, he gets a LOT of points in transition and from the free throw line now. People used to joke that he would barrel through people like a bull in a china shop. Pre 2011 that wasn't true at all. He could legit take people off the dribble. Now, he really does try and run into people to get a foul call.

IMO, if LeBron would've been a hard worker and started the foundation for a legit post game 3 or 4 years ago, and slowly transitioned it into his game as a change of pace look for defenses. Much the way MJ slowly and surely implemented it more and more from '92 onwards. The defense against LeBron would have more to worry about, and as an age factor for LeBron ... losing his 1st step, he could transition his Karl Malone like body and dexterity to it's more natural position of PF.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yup. Exactly.

But in my opinion, greater athleticism (or more applicable for basketball) than LeBron.

Sure LeBron has a bigger frame, but I don't necessarily think he's a stronger finisher than MJ. MJ could take contact and finish plays, while also having superior dexterity and creative body control to contort and bend around defenders to finish at the rim.

In addition to that ... I think they key thing separating MJ from LeBron in terms of athleticism, especially as it pertains to half court / slowed down playoff structure. MJ could blow by people off the dribble, even as a 35 year old. He was nimble, lighting quick. 6'6 with an acceleration like Rose, Wade or Iverson.

LeBron post 2010 has struggled mightily with this and it has affected his abilities to score in the half court. If you pay attention, he gets a LOT of points in transition and from the free throw line now. People used to joke that he would barrel through people like a bull in a china shop. Pre 2011 that wasn't true at all. He could legit take people off the dribble. Now, he really does try and run into people to get a foul call.

IMO, if LeBron would've been a hard worker and started the foundation for a legit post game 3 or 4 years ago, and slowly transitioned it into his game as a change of pace look for defenses. Much the way MJ slowly and surely implemented it more and more from '92 onwards. The defense against LeBron would have more to worry about, and as an age factor for LeBron ... losing his 1st step, he could transition his Karl Malone like body and dexterity to it's more natural position of PF.

:applause:

Well said, man. I agree w/ this entirely.

[tmacattack33]

He is definitely a master of passing (passing skills/court vision)...

I think top 3 (Nash, Lebron and Rondo), just take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

I am speaking of passing skills/court vision alone, passing/vision should not be confused with a starting PG doing nothing but giving up the ball 24-7, even sometimes when he is entirely open for a layup *cough* Rondo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4fuSieh2ro) *cough*


...and why is he not a master of scoring? He has the 3rd highest PPG average ever and is the youngest ever to every scoring milestone from 1000 pts to 19000 points and on best pace in NBA history to shatter Kareems scoring total... he does all this while averaging 7 apg.... at one point even closer to 9 apg... im sure if he didnt pass so much he would average more... Sure he didnt master it as good as Jordan did or better than Jordan (but who did?) but he does master that department...

Yeah maybe. But MJ is above him in scoring definitely. MJ is the one who sets the bar at scoring with a 10. Everyone else is a 9.9 or below.

[tmacattack33]

Yup. Exactly.

But in my opinion, greater athleticism (or more applicable for basketball) than LeBron.

Sure LeBron has a bigger frame, but I don't necessarily think he's a stronger finisher than MJ. MJ could take contact and finish plays, while also having superior dexterity and creative body control to contort and bend around defenders to finish at the rim.

In addition to that ... I think they key thing separating MJ from LeBron in terms of athleticism, especially as it pertains to half court / slowed down playoff structure. MJ could blow by people off the dribble, even as a 35 year old. He was nimble, lighting quick. 6'6 with an acceleration like Rose, Wade or Iverson.

LeBron post 2010 has struggled mightily with this and it has affected his abilities to score in the half court. If you pay attention, he gets a LOT of points in transition and from the free throw line now. People used to joke that he would barrel through people like a bull in a china shop. Pre 2011 that wasn't true at all. He could legit take people off the dribble. Now, he really does try and run into people to get a foul call.

IMO, if LeBron would've been a hard worker and started the foundation for a legit post game 3 or 4 years ago, and slowly transitioned it into his game as a change of pace look for defenses. Much the way MJ slowly and surely implemented it more and more from '92 onwards. The defense against LeBron would have more to worry about, and as an age factor for LeBron ... losing his 1st step, he could transition his Karl Malone like body and dexterity to it's more natural position of PF.

I don't know about "struggling with it mightily", but yeah, in Cleveland he was on D Rose level with his first step and burst to the hoop.

He's not at that level right now (and Rose might not be either coming off his injury), but he's still one of the best with it in the entire game.

Many of points in the Finals were off of penetration. Most of them actually. He was 3-20 on jump shots or something like that.

[Money 23]

I don't know about "struggling with it mightily"
I do, he struggles mightily. If I could make GIFs, I'd post them.

In 2010, I watched him from triple threat blow past one of the best man defenders in the league, Kirk Hinrich (one of the quickest laterally) with ease.

In 2011 I watched him dribble, awkward dribble, and not be able to blow past Taj Gibson and 7' slow foot Omar Asik.

Last year it came back in periods (his 1st step) but other times it failed him again. Even in game 6 v.s. Boston, there was a sequence where he just simply couldn't take slow of foot Brandon Bass off the dribble.

His lack of explosion off the first step is why he had such a difficult time in the 2011 Finals, when you had quick lateral players like Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion staying in front of him.

And w/ a jumper that comes and goes (on against the Bulls) ... and then off (against the Mavericks) it's why as a megastar he ended up only scoring 17 ppg in an NBA Finals. He had nothing to fall back on without that first step.

His options were:

Drive, make contact w/ defender, FLOP ... hope for foul call

or

Stand aimlessly on the perimeter and watch D-Wade try and save them.

Ultimately he needs to either lose weight to continue playing like this ... or develop mid range jumper, post game, footwork and evolve into a more dynamic / passing / playmaking version of Karl Malone.

Plain and simple.


yeah, in Cleveland he was on D Rose level with his first step and burst to the hoop.
I wouldn't go that far, but yes he was extremely fast.


of points in the Finals were off of penetration. Most of them actually. He was 3-20 on jump shots or something like that.
He scored a lot on free-throws, alot in transition but yes he scored on drives. But in context watching them, he didn't get to the basket with ease. He would get bumped and throw up little floaters or awkward layups. He wasn't leaving people in the dust and throwing down thunderous dunks on big men the way he did from 2005 - 2010.

[Graviton]

Well, Lebron has put on like 20-30 pounds. He is noticeably bigger and slower, and this year he seems to be even larger if preseason is an indication. I think he put on that weight to be more of a power forward and help Heat's big man issue. He traded quickness for more power, now he is really unstoppable in the paint.

They figured out an effective strategy, get Lebron in the paint and watch him get "and 1s" vs 1 defendant, if he gets doubled swing the ball and watch Battier, Miller, Chalmers, Ray or Lewis shoot an open 3. It gives you an advantage because usually you get 3 points either way, and with Miami's defense it makes it harder to keep up.

Even vs Perkins/Ibaka, Lebron just bulldozed through the paint and scored with contact, only Howard can stop that 270 pound train. The trade off is the fact we don't get to see agile Lebron blow past people and dunk in the half court, his leaping ability is still there, but without the quickness he only gets dunks on open fast breaks.

[tmacattack33]

I do, he struggles mightily. If I could make GIFs, I'd post them.

In 2010, I watched him from triple threat blow past one of the best man defenders in the league, Kirk Hinrich (one of the quickest laterally) with ease.

In 2011 I watched him dribble, awkward dribble, and not be able to blow past Taj Gibson and 7' slow foot Omar Asik.

Last year it came back in periods (his 1st step) but other times it failed him again. Even in game 6 v.s. Boston, there was a sequence where he just simply couldn't take slow of foot Brandon Bass off the dribble.

His lack of explosion off the first step is why he had such a difficult time in the 2011 Finals, when you had quick lateral players like Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion staying in front of him.

And w/ a jumper that comes and goes (on against the Bulls) ... and then off (against the Mavericks) it's why as a megastar he ended up only scoring 17 ppg in an NBA Finals. He had nothing to fall back on without that first step.

His options were:

Drive, make contact w/ defender, FLOP ... hope for foul call

or

Stand aimlessly on the perimeter and watch D-Wade try and save them.

Ultimately he needs to either lose weight to continue playing like this ... or develop mid range jumper, post game, footwork and evolve into a more dynamic / passing / playmaking version of Karl Malone.

Plain and simple.


I wouldn't go that far, but yes he was extremely fast.


He scored a lot on free-throws, alot in transition but yes he scored on drives. But in context watching them, he didn't get to the basket with ease. He would get bumped and throw up little floaters or awkward layups. He wasn't leaving people in the dust and throwing down thunderous dunks on big men the way he did from 2005 - 2010.

A lot of those FT's came from getting fouled on drives.

[Money 23]

A lot of those FT's came from getting fouled on drives.
Yes, as I said ... drives where he couldn't fully get past or separate from the defender. But was reduced to throwing his large frame into them and getting the call.

[hawke812]

Lebron is good. Don't over-hype him. He had two other MENS with him in that finals:oldlol:

[tmacattack33]

Yes, as I said ... drives where he couldn't fully get past or separate from the defender. But was reduced to throwing his large frame into them and getting the call.

On many of them (more times than the case you mentioned), it is the defense that is reduced to hacking Lebron in order to prevent an easy lay up.

[upside24]

I don't know about that but having elite skills in mutiple facts of the game being a guaranteed high impact player given though scoring or scoring/rebounds or scoring/playmaking.

His effect on the game is so vast that I don't see how people can't hate this truly special player.

I feel sorry for some people so blinded with hate they don't get to experience what unbiased fans do.

He is a show. Like Kobe was a show. Like Mike was a show. Like Dr. J before them all.

[ripthekik]

I don't see how people can't hate this truly special player.
:lol

[Pointguard]

This suggesting that Lebron bull dozes his way in without skill is getting a bit out of hand. Lebron could play the point right now and get ten assist a game. And not be in the top ten in turnovers. And still get 20 a game. Point Forward is by far the most skilled position in the sport. Particularly the way Lebron plays it - defending every position. Lebron is super skilled and utilizes more skills than anybody before him because its a different skill set to play four positions at a great level and to defend five at very good to excellent levels. It wouldn't surprise anybody if he gets the scoring record and still get 10,000 assist. At 6-8 its not easy to protect ball and get to the basket from the perimeter for 8 years while almost always being in the top 3 in scoring and top 10 in assist.

Its not just barrel-ling in because there are no other examples like him. He's uniquely talented and super skilled.

[Money 23]

This suggesting that Lebron bull dozes his way in without skill is getting a bit out of hand.
Pre-2011, absolutely.

But to act like he's fluid off the dribble, and exploding past his man on 1st step separation is just as ridiculous. He's clearly lost a few steps in those regards the past two seasons.

[bizil]

In terms of what Lebron can do in all of those facets then I have to say yes. From a technical standpoint though, I give the nod to MJ and then after that Kobe. But in terms of the facets asked and what Bron can do, (regardless of how technically sound he is scoring) I give him the nod. Bron is still an awesome scorer who's third all time in career PPG. And his versatility is something that Kobe and MJ can't really match, even though their versatility is epic as well. But Bron's passing ability is on that special sixth sense level like Magic, Bird, Nash, Stockton, Paul, etc. MJ and Kobe while great passers aren't quite on that level in terms of passing. Even though they are capable of being that kind of passer at times.

Other alpha dog type guys who are epic all around and I would take after Bron, MJ, and Kobe are Hondo, West, Wade, and Hill. Guys who's D can be very good but not really great are T Mac, Drexler, Pierce, Big O, and Penny. Guys who weren't alpha dog types but still are epic all around are guys like Kidd, Pippen, Rondo, Fat Lever, and Moncrief. A guy that was on his way to this kind of level was Ron Harper if it wasn't for the injuries with the Cavs. I would go so far to say that after MJ, Harper combined ALL OF THESE FACETS better than any other SG in the era. I think Harper's D was better than Drexler's at the time.

In terms of bigs, I gotta roll with KG, Duncan, Walton, Wilt, and Kareem.

[plowking]

By reading some of the posts in here you'd think that Bron is an average player instead of one of the best to ever play.

Size and athleticism are all apart of the game. If that is his way of getting to to ring and scoring, or even defending, then that is what makes him good at that facet of the game. Knowing how to use your tools is a skill. Bron is remarkably skilled, both offensively and defensively. Saying that Bird or any other player is far better than Bron offensively is about as incorrect as you can get.

[LakersReign]

By reading some of the posts in here you'd think that Bron is an average player instead of one of the best to ever play.

Size and athleticism are all apart of the game. If that is his way of getting to to ring and scoring, or even defending, then that is what makes him good at that facet of the game. Knowing how to use your tools is a skill. Bron is remarkably skilled, both offensively and defensively. Saying that Bird or any other player is far better than Bron offensively is about as incorrect as you can get.

Same thing you haters do to Kobe:sleeping

[plowking]

Same thing haters do to Kobe:sleeping

Won't argue that, but its far worse for Lebron since Kobe is a finesse player that does get his due when it comes to skill.
Lebron is immensely skilled. We've seen dozens of great athletes come into the NBA with more size, sometimes more speed, sometimes more hops than Lebron, and they can't put it together. Look at Gerald Green, James White, etc...

You don't become one of the greatest ever without being insanely skilled. The fact is, Lebron is one of the most multi-faceted and skilled players to ever pick up a basketball.

And if you're referring to me as one of the haters, I'm not even sure if I've made a post on Kobe in the last 3 months. So you can throw that out the window.

[LakersReign]

Won't argue that, but its far worse for Lebron since Kobe is a finesse player that does get his due when it comes to skill.
Lebron is immensely skilled. We've seen dozens of great athletes come into the NBA with more size, sometimes more speed, sometimes more hops than Lebron, and they can't put it together. Look at Gerald Green, James White, etc...

You don't become one of the greatest ever without being insanely skilled. The fact is, Lebron is one of the most multi-faceted and skilled players to ever pick up a basketball.

And if you're referring to me as one of the haters, I'm not even sure if I've made a post on Kobe in the last 3 months. So you can throw that out the window.

Only by reasonable NBA fans. Lebron fans who had no connection to the NBA prior to him showing up, CAN'T do that when it comes to Kobe. Referring to Lebron as the greatest ever and all that remains to be seen. And it a testament to how his fans overrate him. Yes, he's skilled, but he ain't all that. Dude wins 1 out of 3 Finals and y'all are acting like he already won 10 titles. Come on now

[LA Lakers]

Did the original poster ever watch Larry Bird play basketball? MJ? Hakeem The Dream? Jerry West? Wilt The Stilt? Just curious.

[j3lademaster]

Lebron: 27/8/6 (2012)
Shaq: 29/13/4 (2000)

Shaq had better offense, much more rebounds, better defense (being a center), and two less assists.

You're going to use Shaq's best statistical season and not Bron's? Ok.

[Lebron23]

Did the original poster ever watch Larry Bird play basketball? MJ? Hakeem The Dream? Jerry West? Wilt The Stilt? Just curious.


Bird was not an elite defender. Jordan. LeBron, and Wilt belongs in this category.