What position did Oscar Robertson play?

[Whoah10115]

Different people here have said different things, and I'm curious. From what I remember watching, he's a PG. But I've heard him talked about as a do-it-all SG from a time where the guard positions weren't so defined. I've also heard some refer to him as the first true point forward.



What do people think? Those who either watched in his time or those (like CavaliersFTW) who have done some extensive research on his game and maybe can give a definitive personal opinion.

[DStebb716]

quarterback

[Money 23]

Different people here have said different things, and I'm curious.
I've always wondered this myself ...

I've heard everything from PG, SG to SF.

[G-train]

He was a guard. At the time you played 2 guards, 2 forwards and a centre. Was no other distiction I believe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's true that positions weren't defined the same way, but if you defined them in today's terms then he'd have played both positions.

But for what it's worth, in most of his games that I've seen, he's playing point guard as much as Magic Johnson did, and by that, I mean he's handling the ball and setting up his teammates, but not necessarily always matched up with the other team's smaller guard, or lead guard. And lets be honest, Magic almost never matched up with actual point guards, so if Oscar isn't a point guard then Magic isn't.

By the way, Oscar has described himself as a point guard.

What's interesting is that Jerry West is always called a shooting guard, but there were seasons when his role was clearly as his team's point guard, in addition to being a scorer much like Oscar. West even played with a hall of fame shooting guard.

[TheFan]

im not an oldschool fan... but for the videos ive seen, he seems to be a combo guard, like wade.

[CavaliersFTW]

Different people here have said different things, and I'm curious. From what I remember watching, he's a PG. But I've heard him talked about as a do-it-all SG from a time where the guard positions weren't so defined. I've also heard some refer to him as the first true point forward.



What do people think? Those who either watched in his time or those (like CavaliersFTW) who have done some extensive research on his game and maybe can give a definitive personal opinion.
He was predominately a point guard to the point where it was almost exclusively his position despite his size - like Magic Johnson, though I've seen instances where (just to create a line up change) he was playing the forward position like in a game against the Celtics from the 1966 playoffs. That's the only exception I've seen though, even in superstar riddled all-star games it seems he is always his teams starting/closing quarterback/pointguard. Nobody was better on any team he ever played for (and perhaps nobody was better in the entire NBA league during his tenure) at bringing the ball up the court - keeping it protected - and directing the flow of the offense. He definitely never depended on someone else to pass it to him, the ball stayed in his hands throughout most of his career.

[Euroleague]

Shooting guard and point forward. The talk about him being a point guard is a myth.

[CavaliersFTW]

im not an oldschool fan... but for the videos ive seen, he seems to be a combo guard, like wade.
He was way more demanding of the ball than Wade, like - he screamed at his players if they didn't give him the ball immediately after a rebound. In all my footage of him it is almost exclusively him bringing the ball up the court on every play where he's in the game, and he's getting the ball passed back too him at the top of the key to reset any botched plays in half-court sets. Doesn't matter if it's all star games, playoff, or regular season - he seems much less combo/wade-like and much more stricly "point" IMO... He was on the ball throughout a game as much as say, Rajon Rondo (much more than Wade) the only thing that's less Rondo like and more Wade like is how often he shot the ball and carried some of the offensive load

[CavaliersFTW]

Shooting guard and point forward. The talk about him being a point guard is a myth.
:facepalm please don't pretend to know about Oscar Robertson. :oldlol:

[Euroleague]

:facepalm please don't pretend to know about Oscar Robertson. :oldlol:

Stop being an idiot. He was a primary ball handler, not a point guard. Those two things are not necessarily the same thing.

He was a primary ball handler, that played SG/SF.

You are full of shit if you are trying to dispute that here.

[CavaliersFTW]

Stop being an idiot. He was a primary ball handler, not a point guard. Those two things are not necessarily the same thing.

He was a primary ball handler, that played SG/SF.

You are full of shit if you are trying to dispute that here.
I've watched, studied, and have easy access to hours of footage of Oscar in action - you don't... yet I'm the one who's full of shit? :roll:

[Whoah10115]

I have to agree with ShaqAttack and Cavaliers FTW. That's how I've always seen him.



But I haven't watched an Oscar Robertson game or clip in a long time. I never really believed he was ever a 2guard, tho I've started to wonder about him as a point forward. He had more of a full-court game tho, from what I remember. And as someone already said, he was definitely one of the two guards.



So it's good to get some feedback.

[Euroleague]

I've watched, studied, and have easy access to hours of footage of Oscar in action - you don't... yet I'm the one who's full of shit? :roll:

Yes you are full of shit. He was playing same way as Bird, Pippen, LeBron, etc. Not "point guards", but guys that play a different position, but run the offense.

Meaning....yes, you are full of shit.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yes you are full of shit. He was playing same way as Bird, Pippen, LeBron, etc. Not "point guards", but guys that play a different position, but run the offense.

Meaning....yes, you are full of shit.

Yes you are full of shit. He was playing same way as Bird, Pippen, LeBron, etc. Not "point guards", but guys that play a different position, but run the offense.

Meaning....yes, you are full of shit.
:wtf:

What games have you watched?

I've watched (all multiple times):

1962 NBA all-star game (nearly complete)

1966 G4 NBA playoffs vs Celtics (2nd half)
1966 G5 NBA playoffs vs Celtics (in documentary form, game nearly complete)

1969 NBA All-star game (complete)

1971 Bucks vs Knicks playoff game

1972 NBA All-star game
1972 Bucks vs Lakers regular season game
1972 NBA vs ABA all-star game

and if I compressed all my documentaries and partial game highlights of the league into strictly Oscar plays / highlights I have an additional 30+ minutes of highlights of strictly him from every single season and type of game imaginable. In fact not only do I watch his games and highlights, I take the time to extract them in my video editor, which means I get even more exposure and focus on his plays than if I was just to ever casually watch a game - I literally see everything he's doing throughout games.

So what do I deduce from watching it all?:

He brings the ball up the court and has it in his hands deciding it's fate more than every single one of those players u just mentioned... His stats even reflect this in his higher assists count (in an era where u weren't given the assist when a player dribbled after receiving a pass)... He calls himself a point guard, not(ever) a forward... and others who played with him also have never once called him a forward and always call him a guard and sometimes more specifically, a point guard, not ever a shooting guard... Find a player he played against who calls him a forward or a shooting guard. Find me a game where he isn't bringing the ball up the court virtually every play that he's on the floor and determining everywhere that ball goes. The ball doesn't go anywhere without his permission, he is a point guard not a forward. Not a shooting guard. Go back to watching Euroleague games little lamb, you've strayed too far from your herd of Euro-sheep.

[pauk]

He started mostly point-guard... but he would often ping-pong between positions, he could play up to 4 positions, at his time his length/size/power was equal to plenty PFs, take a look at Elgin Baylor for example, Oscar had identical size and was even more athletic, so more accurately he was a PG-SG-SF and even PF if needed (in that order), extremly versatile...... he was the Magic or Lebron of his time...

[CavaliersFTW]

He started mostly point-guard... but he was a la Magic/Lebron (that could play up to 4 positions, at his time his length/size/power was equal to plenty PFs)
Let's be clear and realistic here, his size and power was nearly that of a typical SF's of that era, not at all adequate (especially in length) to match up to PF's... no way in hell Oscar could ever hope to match up in size to guys like Nate Thurmond, Luke Jackson, Rudy LaRusso, Jerry Lucas, Bob Pettit.... etc - those guys are huge in comparison. Maybe he could bump a skinny guy like Satch Sanders around a few times but even that I doubt he could do much considering Satch's defensive tools like 7-2 armspan.

220lbs on a solid frame is Oscars most imposing asset, but he's still only about 6-4.5 w/o shoes which is not even remotely close to the typical height of a PF back then, and would be on the shorter end of any SF's of that era. I'm not aware that he was equipped with any form of noteworthy wingspan relative to his height ala Jerry West. His gift was his wide powerful frame but just so history isn't skewed from what I see this is only relative to other guards, he was like a 2/3rds scale Lebron but it was still too small to exploit and consistently bang down low with players bigger than SF's. He was not the specimen of his era that one would consider comparable to Lebron or Magic - players in his era weren't any smaller in height than this or Magics era and they weren't any skinnier than they were in Magics era. So he was almost the mismatch Lebron/Magic brought, but not-quite. I'd say he was trouble from 1-3 but not 4

[PHILA]

Just Guard. In this era, he is a PG. Like West though, he could play both positions.



The Big O: my life, my times, my game - Oscar Robertson

http://i.imgur.com/4rLee.png
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http://i.imgur.com/zVlEE.png
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[PHILA]

http://i.imgur.com/Fokxh.png
http://i.imgur.com/633Uo.png
http://i.imgur.com/LFYsc.png
http://i.imgur.com/RDPGw.png
http://i.imgur.com/tOzjb.png
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http://i.imgur.com/aUQ48.png
http://i.imgur.com/O8R8B.png
http://i.imgur.com/88OqB.png

[Euroleague]

:wtf:

What games have you watched?

I've watched (all multiple times):

1962 NBA all-star game (nearly complete)

1966 G4 NBA playoffs vs Celtics (2nd half)
1966 G5 NBA playoffs vs Celtics (in documentary form, game nearly complete)

1969 NBA All-star game (complete)

1971 Bucks vs Knicks playoff game

1972 NBA All-star game
1972 Bucks vs Lakers regular season game
1972 NBA vs ABA all-star game

and if I compressed all my documentaries and partial game highlights of the league into strictly Oscar plays / highlights I have an additional 30+ minutes of highlights of strictly him from every single season and type of game imaginable. In fact not only do I watch his games and highlights, I take the time to extract them in my video editor, which means I get even more exposure and focus on his plays than if I was just to ever casually watch a game - I literally see everything he's doing throughout games.

So what do I deduce from watching it all?:

He brings the ball up the court and has it in his hands deciding it's fate more than every single one of those players u just mentioned... His stats even reflect this in his higher assists count (in an era where u weren't given the assist when a player dribbled after receiving a pass)... He calls himself a point guard, not(ever) a forward... and others who played with him also have never once called him a forward and always call him a guard and sometimes more specifically, a point guard, not ever a shooting guard... Find a player he played against who calls him a forward or a shooting guard. Find me a game where he isn't bringing the ball up the court virtually every play that he's on the floor and determining everywhere that ball goes. The ball doesn't go anywhere without his permission, he is a point guard not a forward. Not a shooting guard. Go back to watching Euroleague games little lamb, you've strayed too far from your herd of Euro-sheep.


Do I really have to explain to you what a point guard is?

[pauk]

Let's be clear and realistic here, his size and power was nearly that of a typical SF's of that era, not at all adequate (especially in length) to match up to PF's... no way in hell Oscar could ever hope to match up in size to guys like Nate Thurmond, Luke Jackson, Rudy LaRusso, Jerry Lucas, Bob Pettit.... etc - those guys are huge in comparison. Maybe he could bump a skinny guy like Satch Sanders around a few times but even that I doubt he could do much considering Satch's defensive tools like 7-2 armspan.

220lbs on a solid frame is Oscars most imposing asset, but he's still only about 6-4.5 w/o shoes which is not even remotely close to the typical height of a PF back then, and would be on the shorter end of any SF's of that era. I'm not aware that he was equipped with any form of noteworthy wingspan relative to his height ala Jerry West. His gift was his wide powerful frame but just so history isn't skewed from what I see this is only relative to other guards, he was like a 2/3rds scale Lebron but it was still too small to exploit and consistently bang down low with players bigger than SF's. He was not the specimen of his era that one would consider comparable to Lebron or Magic - players in his era weren't any smaller in height than this or Magics era and they weren't any skinnier than they were in Magics era.

The up to 20 rebounds a game averaging Elgin Baylor says hello from that era (Oscar had identical size and was even more athletic)...

[DatAsh]

It's true that positions weren't defined the same way, but if you defined them in today's terms then he'd have played both positions.

But for what it's worth, in most of his games that I've seen, he's playing point guard as much as Magic Johnson did, and by that, I mean he's handling the ball and setting up his teammates, but not necessarily always matched up with the other team's smaller guard, or lead guard. And lets be honest, Magic almost never matched up with actual point guards, so if Oscar isn't a point guard then Magic isn't.

By the way, Oscar has described himself as a point guard.

What's interesting is that Jerry West is always called a shooting guard, but there were seasons when his role was clearly as his team's point guard, in addition to being a scorer much like Oscar. West even played with a hall of fame shooting guard.

Oscar was much more of a point guard than he was a shooting guard, much moreso than Jerry West ever was - though West did play what would be considered the point at various points in his career. I don't think West was as capable of anchoring an offense to the same extent and in the same manner as Ocscar - though he was better defensively.

To those who have never seen Oscar play, it's hard to really compare him to any other player before or since, but I think you're somewhat on point with the Magic comparison in that their halfcourt games show signs of similarity. His halfcourt game was somewhat akin to Magic's halfcourt game without the flash, but equally effective. He was slower and more methodical than Magic - I don't mean that athletically or even technically - but he always seemed to make the right play no matter the situation. Much like Magic, Oscar's team offenses were always top notch - hinting at his ability to anchor a successful offensive, like Magic. Here are his team's ORtgs relative to the league average



1960 - +0.3(4th)
-------------------- Oscar joins
1961: +4.0(1st)
1962: +5.4(1st)
1963: +4.0(1st)
1964: +4.7(1st)
1965: +4.8(1st)
1966: +2.8(3rd)
1967: +2.5(2nd)
1968: +4.9(2nd)
1969: +5.2(1st)
1970: -1.2(9th)
1971: +7.4(1st)
1972: +5.2(2nd)
1973: +2.2(4th)
1974: +3.5(1st)
------------------- Oscar retires
1975: +0.3(8th)



As an offensive player, I have him 5th behind Magic, Larry, Michael, and Nash, and that was due in larger part to his on court abilities as a point guard - more-so than it was on his ability to score.

Something I've always noticed is that those who have actually seen him play tend to view him in higher regard than those who simply base their opinion on his legacy and statistics. That says to me that his on court impact and greatness was greater than what his statistics and accolades would lead someone to believe in hindsight.

Oscar could play several positions, but he was a point guard first and foremost.

[CavaliersFTW]

The up to 20 rebounds a game averaging Elgin Baylor says hello (Oscar had identical size and was even more athletic)...
Baylor is bigger than Oscar, Baylor was 236lbs at his heaviest and 212 at his lightest vs Oscar at 220 heaviest and 205 lightest, and Baylor was slightly taller than Oscar despite their identical list height.... Oscar was NOT - and I repeat - NOT more athletic than Elgin Baylor.

[L.Kizzle]

I think it was Jerry West who said back then positions weren't really defined as "shooting guards" and "point guards."

West, Robertson, Hal Greer, Sam Jones, Dave Bing, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Pistol Pete, hell Calvin Murphy. Can we really define those players?

[DatAsh]

http://i.imgur.com/Fokxh.png
http://i.imgur.com/633Uo.png
http://i.imgur.com/LFYsc.png
http://i.imgur.com/RDPGw.png
http://i.imgur.com/tOzjb.png
http://i.imgur.com/r5dpw.png
http://i.imgur.com/aUQ48.png
http://i.imgur.com/O8R8B.png
http://i.imgur.com/88OqB.png


Great Post

[Segatti]

:wtf:

What games have you watched?

I've watched (all multiple times):

1962 NBA all-star game (nearly complete)

1966 G4 NBA playoffs vs Celtics (2nd half)
1966 G5 NBA playoffs vs Celtics (in documentary form, game nearly complete)

1969 NBA All-star game (complete)

1971 Bucks vs Knicks playoff game

1972 NBA All-star game
1972 Bucks vs Lakers regular season game
1972 NBA vs ABA all-star game

and if I compressed all my documentaries and partial game highlights of the league into strictly Oscar plays / highlights I have an additional 30+ minutes of highlights of strictly him from every single season and type of game imaginable. In fact not only do I watch his games and highlights, I take the time to extract them in my video editor, which means I get even more exposure and focus on his plays than if I was just to ever casually watch a game - I literally see everything he's doing throughout games.

So what do I deduce from watching it all?:

He brings the ball up the court and has it in his hands deciding it's fate more than every single one of those players u just mentioned... His stats even reflect this in his higher assists count (in an era where u weren't given the assist when a player dribbled after receiving a pass)... He calls himself a point guard, not(ever) a forward... and others who played with him also have never once called him a forward and always call him a guard and sometimes more specifically, a point guard, not ever a shooting guard... Find a player he played against who calls him a forward or a shooting guard. Find me a game where he isn't bringing the ball up the court virtually every play that he's on the floor and determining everywhere that ball goes. The ball doesn't go anywhere without his permission, he is a point guard not a forward. Not a shooting guard. Go back to watching Euroleague games little lamb, you've strayed too far from your herd of Euro-sheep.

Why type so many words for a troll?

[Whoah10115]

Quality post from Phila. Tho I do think Robertson talks himself up a bit.



Also, Elgin Baylor was a PF? Baylor is a SF, so I don't know why comparing Robertson to Baylor makes Robertson capable of playing PF. Baylor was taller, thicker, and was a SF who could play some PF.

[WillC]

Shooting guard and point forward. The talk about him being a point guard is a myth.

What the hell are you on about? I've defended you in the past, but the above post makes you look like a moron.

[LA Lakers]

I thought he was considered by his peers to be more like a D Wade or MJ? Very athletic 2 guard. And the man was a walking triple double... But everyone here is screaming pg so Im not gonna argue.

[LA Lakers]

@PHILA, great stuff

[dunksby]

He played Small Forward if you catch my drift.