Give Vince Carter Kobe's work ethic...

[D.J.]

What would his ceiling be? He had seasons of:


26/6/4/1.3/1.1 on 47/40/79
28/6/4/1.5/1.1 on 46/41/77
25/5/4/1.4/0.6 on 45/41/80

[UltraThunderMan]

It depends on whether or not he steals Jordan's game as well like kobe. If not, he would prb only get a little bit better. He isn't all of a sudden going to become a top ten player.

[Bucket_Nakedz]

someone not named vince carter

[TheeBeast]

That would make him, hands down, the greatest dunker of all time, by miles.

[IGotACoolStory]

360 ppg, 540 rpg, and 720 apg.

[longtime lurker]

This guy had serious potential. If you think about it there's not one weakness that Vince Carter had besides being a pvssy with no heart. Vince Carter with Kobe's worth ethic has at worst top 20 potential

[SyRyanYang]

Work ethic is overrated. It's more competitiveness what really drives you.

[HardwoodLegend]

Who had less work ethic... Vince or T-Mac?

It's a close call, but I think Vince cared even less than his cousin. T-Mac at least vocally expressed a strong desire to win that almost convinced you he was working hard.

[scm5]

Work ethic is overrated. It's more competitiveness what really drives you.

Work ethic, preperation has a lot to do with it. A LOT.

Work ethic isn't just working out and getting your shot perfect. It's about watching games and preparing yourself to give your team the best shot at winning.

Competitiveness is that extra drive that pushes you into greatness.

[brandonislegend]

He could have been the best ever, he could shoot from anywhere and drive, if he had a motor and willingness to work he could have been a legend.

[StateOfMind12]

I don't think Carter's work-ethic was the problem, it more like his attitude. He plays when he wants to play.

I never heard anywhere that Vince didn't work hard and would **** off. I just know that he quit on his team and did a bunch of terrible things for the Toronto Raptors when he wanted to leave.

[inclinerator]

maybe top 10 wise in production but he would still hae to win to get in the rankings

[StateOfMind12]

Who had less work ethic... Vince or T-Mac?

It's a close call, but I think Vince cared even less than his cousin. T-Mac at least vocally expressed a strong desire to win that almost convinced you he was working hard.
Carter cared less but he also worked harder. Kind of strange right? Tmac wanted to win but he didn't want to work/earn it.

[SyRyanYang]

Work ethic, preperation has a lot to do with it. A LOT.

Work ethic isn't just working out and getting your shot perfect. It's about watching games and preparing yourself to give your team the best shot at winning.

Competitiveness is that extra drive that pushes you into greatness.

Carter was already a great player and the extra push was all he needs.

[DStebb716]

he'd be the best player of all-time

[CarlosBoozer]

If y'all curious about vince carter's prime or just wanna see vince carter videos, check this youtube channel out http://www.youtube.com/user/vc15encyclopedia/videos?view=0

[Noob Saibot]

I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.

Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.

[AlphaWolf24]

I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.

Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.


serious?

how is Kobe Lucky?

watching his game/career....none of it is Luck.

to get a game like Kobe's...you have to work extremely hard....





:facepalm at some of these posters.

[longtime lurker]

I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.

Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.

Lol luck? Kobe is still in the conversation for top 10 in the league despite age and injuries. Luck has nothing to do with that.

[Noob Saibot]

Lol luck? Kobe is still in the conversation for top 10 in the league despite age and injuries. Luck has nothing to do with that.

does kobe jordan still win a title if he's not a Laker? i mean he is that gifted right?

[longtime lurker]

does kobe jordan still win a title if he's not a Laker? i mean he is that gifted right?

Yes. I don't know what you're getting at here. Putting on a Laker uniform doesn't guarantee titles.

[Noob Saibot]

Yes. I don't know what you're getting at here. Putting on a Laker uniform doesn't guarantee titles.

I agree a jersey doesn't guarantee titles. but a great franchise like the Lakers in a big market will always build great teams centering around a certain player with the franchise "Tag". Its a formula that's worked well with them for decades. No NBA drafts needed if you can buy yourself a great team. The "luck" factor comes in on how many chances a franchise player can succeed in an organization like that.

This response isn't to belittle someone like Kobe, he going to the Hall of Fame because he served the Lakers extremely well. Anyways, about Vince Carter, StateofMind12 said it best, he plays hard, but wasn't always motivated nor did Vince keep his skills up. Had he'd done that he would still be in New Jersey or even Toronto if the Raptors weren't so shitty.

[jjayfive]

I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.

Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.


you're missing the point. luck has nothing to do with working hard and and being motivated.

I would say Carter lacked heart. He had more natural ability than Kobe, combine it with hard work, desire, and heart, he could've been one of the greatest wing to play the game.

[DirtySanchez]

Kobe is 100 proof. Stop lying to yourself calling it luck. You MAKE your own luck. Kobe had all te pressure on him to win titles after Shaq left and went back to back no less with a team built around him. /Thread

[TheeBeast]

he'd be the best player of all-time

Even ith Kobe's work ethic, he's still not better than Kobe. I'd say a top 30 though

[D.J.]

Even ith Kobe's work ethic, he's still not better than Kobe. I'd say a top 30 though


Better three point shooter, attacked the hoop at will, more athletic, a bit below him defensively but able to block shots. Add Kobe's work ethic, there's no reason to think Vince couldn't push top 10 all-time. The physical gifts were there from day 1.

[Legends66NBA7]

Vince had a polished game from the start, at least offensively. Even with a work ethic as great as Kobe's is, does this translate in Vince playing better defense ?

He'd certainly would be better and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be taking nights off the court. Probably would have more individual accolades and awards. As for team accomplishments and how he performs in the playoffs... like any good/great wing player, he would have a solid low post big man to help take some pressure of him. I thought what his teams lacked on the Toronto and New Jersey teams in his prime was no solid post presence.

So, I definitely think he would be much higher ranked, especially if he won multiple titles in a city like Toronto, which didn't have titles to begin. There's always something special about bringing the first set of title(s) to a franchise that didn't have NBA Title history or playoff success to begin with.

[Brick Rick]

He had a naturally slow lateral movement that couldn't be corrected with any sort of work ethic which is a glaring flaw to have in your defensive game. Yes he was more offensively talented than Kobe but not defensively. Still as far as natural talent goes, I would put him in Top 5 for SG/SF's.

[Jacks3]

Work-ethic won't give him Kobe's ball-handling and play-making ability.

Or his lateral quickness.

Or his body control.

Or his focus.

Man it's crazy how much people overrate the " natural talent" of guys like Carter/T-Mac.

[memetherapy]

Work-ethic won't give him Kobe's ball-handling and play-making ability.

Or his lateral quickness.

Or his body control.

Or his focus.

Man it's crazy how much people overrate the " natural talent" of guys like Carter/T-Mac.

Agreed. It's like people got suckered into thinking jumping ability is of upmost importance in basketball after watching Jordan, but Jordan wasn't just good because he jumped high. He was good for the very same reasons Kobe is so good, he was all-around talented at everything. Lateral quickness is more important than jumping ability, but people seem to not give much of a ****.

T-Mac, however, was a huge talent. He just was injury prone, had a weak work-ethic (hence the injuries) and some bad luck. Vince was also very talented, but I wouldn't put him on the same level. His handle never compared to other shooting guards and, as was mentioned, his lateral quickness sucks.

And whoever said Vince would have been the greatest dunker of all time...how is he not the greatest already? The guys 100th best dunk would be anyone's 1st...cmon now, the man had video game type dunks...not NBA2k or live, like NBASTREET shit...cmon now.

[Dragonyeuw]

Vince's problem is he never evolved. He was more or less the same player through his prime, and once his otherworldly athleticism left him, he became ordinary. I recall seeing Kobe years ago coming back every season with something new, to where you could tell that the guy had spent the entire summer in the gym. Vince never seemed to have that desire to diversify his game. Its why Kobe is still a top 6 player today and Vince is a benchwarmer, despite the mileage on Kobe.

[VeeCee15]

VC was never the same athletically after he tore his ACL in 2002 or 2003 forgot when.

However, he did develop his game especially on the nets. One problem was before he joined the nets, and after his injury, the US media just forgot about him and stopped hyping him having signed a longterm contract with the raptors. The biggest effect this had was that he had ZERO respect from the refs and was no longer getting superstar treatment. This is 100% true.

[jstern]

Honestly nobody here really knows Vince's work ethic and I think he gets a bad rap because he's the type of person that smiles too much. Like in NY, I couldn't stand when the idiot callers used to call in and want to get rid of Eli Manning simply because of his facial expressions and no other reason. Just because of his facial expressions they felt he didn't care. People are dumb.

And by the way, back in the day I used to defend Kobe against the people who used to say Vince was better, so it's not like I'm this huge Vince fan.

[It's A VC3!!!]

It was never about his work ethic at all. Vince has been a hard worker for most of his career and is getting high praise from Rick Carlisle for his astounding effort. It was more of his mindset. He knew his talents and leaping ability alone could get him 25-30 any given night so he just stopped there. He never pushed himself to reach his true potential. Tmac on the other hand was a player who just wanted to score 30-35 a game and if that resulted in a win, great and if not, whatever. He just cared about being the man of his team. Should have just stayed with vince in 01. :(
And if vince had shaq during his Toronto days they would have steamrolled the east and won several rings together. Vince has never had the luxury of playing with a championship supporting cast around him. Especially a center.

[macpierce]

does kobe jordan still win a title if he's not a Laker? i mean he is that gifted right?

would lebron of won if he wasnt a miami heat instead of a cavalier?

:oldlol:

[swi7ch]

GOAT if that were the case.

[swi7ch]

getting high praise from Rick Carlisle for his astounding effort
What? A coach praising his player? Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssshocking!!! :facepalm

[Rake2204]

Honestly nobody here really knows Vince's work ethic and I think he gets a bad rap because he's the type of person that smiles too much. Like in NY, I couldn't stand when the idiot callers used to call in and want to get rid of Eli Manning simply because of his facial expressions and no other reason. Just because of his facial expressions they felt he didn't care. People are dumb.

And by the way, back in the day I used to defend Kobe against the people who used to say Vince was better, so it's not like I'm this huge Vince fan.I agree, I've always wondered where the assumptions about his work ethic came from. Is it crazy to think Kobe's work ethic and drive were greater? Not really. But for some to take that assumption and use it to suggest Vince hardly ever worked or cared is way off base in my opinion.

Personally, I believe Vince Carter would have never been Vince Carter if he'd never worked extremely hard and pushed himself nearly to the limit. There's a lot of insane, "natural" basketball athletes out there and 99.9999% of them do not end up on Vince Carter's level.

I've always thought one of the biggest criticisms of Vince Carter has been, essentially, that he understood there was more to life than basketball and the game itself probably wasn't the most important aspect of his life. Whereas some of the all-time greats, we sort of were given the impression they lived and died with the game.

In a way, I guess these are just my ways of making excuses for Carter but at the end of the day, I don't think anyone naturally shoots nearly 38% from the arc while averaging 24ppg+ for so many years of their career while playing in the most advanced basketball league on the planet. Sometimes for who a player is, there's a peak, and Carter's peak wasn't on the same level as some of the greatest players in the history of NBA basketball. I say, so be it. It is just interesting to see the work ethic hypotheticals always pop up with Carter, as if every star player except for Carter (and McGrady) is assumed to have pushed themselves to the absolute limit.

Again, no on walks onto an NBA floor and naturally does what Carter did. He pushed himself, he just wasn't as good as Kobe Bryant. He happened to be only better than 99% of every other NBA basketball player in history, not 99.9%. So be it.

Also, I'm extremely biased in Carter's favor.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Yea like some else said, it's not just work ethic, it's mind set. And Kobe had other nature abilities that Vince did (lateral quickness, handle as mentioned before).

And whoever mentioned body control as a strength for Kobe over Carter, I'd have to disagree. Kobe definitely has better foot work, but in-air body control I'd say is a wash, if not leaning towards Vince.

And about T-mac, he also had the mind set issue, but I think he himself has said that because of his talent he didn't push himself as hard in practice. But, let's not act like injuries weren't his biggest issue. They devastated his career. And you can't say his work ethic was the causes of his injuries, because he has had a bad back for a long time going all the way back to Orlando, you don't just get a bad back by not practicing or working out as much, those things are usually genetic/ chronic. Now the other injuries can be argued came from the work ethic, but even then a lot of it was related to arthritis, again something if you are going to get, can't do much to avoid. Again not saying his work ethic was great by any means, but injuries is what killed his career, the work ethic was just he nail in the coffin. he'd still be playing in the NBA if it wasn't for the injuries.

[It's A VC3!!!]

What? A coach praising his player? Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssshocking!!! :facepalm
Sigh. Normally I ignore morons but whatever. Not every coach or player praises their athletes. Rick Carlisle keeps calling Vince a HoF players, he keeps saying how in video session the Mavericks go over Vince's plays a lot because he appreictads the effort. And he also refers to Vince as one of the most professional players he's ever coached. Not every coach says that about their players dumbass.

[BlueandGold]

lol @ some of these responses.

Vince Carter still worked as hard as any NBA star had to. You do'nt just sit on the couch and expect to get into the NBA.

[Brick Rick]

I remember when Vince took a plane to attend his graduation ceremony on the same day that he was to play in game 7 of the eastern semi-finals against the Sixers (the year they went to the finals and lost to the Lakers) in 2001.

The Raptors lost by one point with Vince missing the buzzer beater. He shot I think 6 for 18 that game. He was criticized heavily for this at the time by the fans and the media.

As a Raptor fan, I was annoyed by this move myself as all sorts of what-ifs entered my mind. What if Vince didn't board that plane and shot 7 for 18 or better that night because he wasn't as tired? Raptors make the east finals, beat the bucks and play in the NBA finals against the Lakers.

This example illustrates the primary difference between Vince and Kobe/MJ: Vince doesn't love the game as much as Kobe/MJ.

[All Net]

Could ask the same about T-mac..damn that guy was crazy good but lacked the work ethic and heart.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

I think the mistake most of yall are making are thinking that if vince carter worked hard once, then he worked hard all the time. There is no doubt that when Vince came into the league he was driven, hard working and all that. There is no way he could have gotten to his level if he wasnt. But after a certain point you could tell he just stopped working and improving his game. Fixing weaknesses making adjustments... Vince started out great, but lost his desire to improve at some point. This is what seperates Jordan and Kobe.. They improved EVERY season. They worked hard EVERY season. Thats what sets them apart from everyone else. Other players might work hard, but they do not work hard with the same consistency and relentlessness that Kobe and Jordan put forth. PRO Sports are truly a mental game at the highest level.

[9erempiree]

Better three point shooter, attacked the hoop at will, more athletic, a bit below him defensively but able to block shots. Add Kobe's work ethic, there's no reason to think Vince couldn't push top 10 all-time. The physical gifts were there from day 1.

With Kobe's work ethic, he would still just be Vince Carter.

A player will always hit their ceiling and this is true of VC. He just wasn't as talented or gifted as Kobe. Slow lateral movements, not very quick and bad handles.

But the number 1 thing that sets them apart is mindset. A better question is Give VC the mindset of Kobe....

[VeeCee15]

VC was quick in his rookie season he didn't even use handles..just first step blow by. His first step was much quicker than kobes.

[memetherapy]

As was stated above, VC's first step used to be top-notch. He, unfortunately, developed jumper's knee which destroys explosiveness. I've had the same issue since I was 20, and as much as I think VC's mindset ain't the best, I can't help stating that most people do not appreciate that the reason he stopped taking it strong to the basket was mostly due to his injury, not his mindset. When your knees are wobbly, the last thing you wanna do is attack the basket.

Now, granted, he could have simply tried to expand his game, because he still had a butter jumper and fantastic passing skills to work with. That's where you can lay blame on his work ethic and/or mindset.

I also think some NBA players don't believe in the necessity to workout. It's true that maintaining your natural body is better than bulking up, but athleticism doesn't prevent injuries, if anything it encourages injury. Players shouldn't try to get much stronger than they naturally are, but conditioning your muscles for endurance is essential to preventing joint injuries. There's a happy medium and I think Vince simply didn't train enough. His genetics programmed him to jump like no body else, but unfortunately for him, he got dealt some pretty average knees.

[eliteballer]

Young Kobe made VC look like he was running in molassas. He never had the agility, coordination, or speed of Kobe.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

I'm sure VC had amazing work ethic when he was younger. It is hard work trying to dunk let alone becoming the best dunker of all time. He just didn't care as much as Kobe did when athleticism declined due to age.

[memetherapy]

I'm sure VC had amazing work ethic when he was younger. It is hard work trying to dunk let alone becoming the best dunker of all time. He just didn't care as much as Kobe did when athleticism declined due to age.

WRONG. It is hard work trying to dunk if you're not naturally built to jump...but he is. Believe me, I know. I'm 5'11'' and used to dunk quite easily without any training of any sort other than playing ball. I'm sure some training could have helped a little, but the common denominator for most people who jump high isn't training, it's natural ability. Substantial vert increase past the age of 20 is almost unheard of.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

WRONG. It is hard work trying to dunk if you're not naturally built to jump...but he is. Believe me, I know. I'm 5'11'' and used to dunk quite easily without any training of any sort other than playing ball. I'm sure some training could have helped a little, but the common denominator for most people who jump high isn't training, it's natural ability. Substantial vert increase past the age of 20 is almost unheard of.
I think we just underestimate the guy because we weren't there to see the work put in. It seems absurd to think he did what he did by sitting on his ass and being lazy.

[Rake2204]

I remember when Vince took a plane to attend his graduation ceremony on the same day that he was to play in game 7 of the eastern semi-finals against the Sixers (the year they went to the finals and lost to the Lakers) in 2001.

The Raptors lost by one point with Vince missing the buzzer beater. He shot I think 6 for 18 that game. He was criticized heavily for this at the time by the fans and the media.

As a Raptor fan, I was annoyed by this move myself as all sorts of what-ifs entered my mind. What if Vince didn't board that plane and shot 7 for 18 or better that night because he wasn't as tired? Raptors make the east finals, beat the bucks and play in the NBA finals against the Lakers.

This example illustrates the primary difference between Vince and Kobe/MJ: Vince doesn't love the game as much as Kobe/MJ.The what-if's go both ways, to be honest. What if Vince Carter was able to muster 6-18 (as opposed to say, 4-18) because he was able to push himself further than normal, drawing up extra focus knowing he had to prove the graduation thing was a non-issue?

Further, to come back to that Game 7, I've watched it quite a few times and after the early series explosions by both Carter and Allen Iverson, both teams appeared dead set in that final contest to allow anything but for those players to have an opportunity to get clean looks at the basket. Toronto and Philly were both employing double and/or triple teams whenever they possibly could.

And sure, you may be saying every star sees double teams at some point, but here, as opposed to when we watch the Lakers or 90's Bulls play, the difference was neither the Raptors nor the 76ers were particularly afraid of the offensive prowess of anyone else on the opposition's team except for the stars themselves. A double team of Carter forced passes to the likes of Alvin Williams and Morris Peterson, big deal. Iverson was passing to Aaron McKie, Jumaine Jones and Eric Snow. None of those perimeter guys tend to strike fear into the eyes of opponents.

To be real, from watching that game a few times, it truly seems both players tried valiantly to be the heroes and take the shots people seemed to think they were supposed to take. Sure, Vince Carter shot 6-18, but Allen Iverson went 8-27. It was a gross, classic early 2000's grind-it-out type of contest. And again, both players were doing everything possible for their team to win. Vince's poor shooting led to just a 20 point outing, but he did have 7 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 steals, and 2 blocks to go alongside.

I always thought the graduation thing was so completely and entirely overblown. For every player who's flown a few hours to their college graduation on gameday, I'm sure there's 12 million who've played Game 7's mere hours after ingesting copious amounts of drugs and/or alcohol, but rarely have I heard any of those pre-game shenanigans receive the attention Carter's did. And maybe that's because players are able to allow their bodies to recover in time, but I think the same could have been argued in Carter's sake (if Carter's body suffered any affects at all to begin with).

The true difference in that Game 7, to me, was the supporting cast. I honestly felt each star did all they possibly could have done in their positions. Iverson had a terrible shooting night, but he picked up 16 assists in exchange, in large thanks to the McKie, Snow, Jones trio shooting a combined 19-36, in contrast to Carter's Williams/Peterson/Childs connection going 11-26. Sometimes, and I know this is going to sound crazy, but sometimes the team as a whole is most responsible for a team's success, not a star's ability to make or miss a single shot.