Could James Harden lead a playoff caliber team as the lead player/scorer?

[bdreason]

Harden is a good player, but is he good enough to be the leader/star player of a playoff caliber squad?

[maybeshewill13]

I personally don't think so. I think his game style is much more suited to coming off the bench/being a complimentary player.. like Manu.

[EnoughSaid]

Noooope. He's not THAT good. He'd at most average 20 points on 45% shooting and fail as a lead dog.

[StateOfMind12]

It would have to be with a very good supporting cast though like the Denver Nuggets.

[outbreak]

I think great second option but nah not a leader. He's the kind of guy who can pick up the slack and make plays when your main guys having a bad night. Personally I'd love to see him next to Dirk in Dallas.

[NuggetsFan]

It would have to be with a very good supporting cast though like the Denver Nuggets.

I dunno if I'm crazy in saying this but I don't even see him being the best player on the Denver Nuggets. I think he'd fall in as just another piece of the puzzle. I think Lawson would be better and he'd be right there with Iggy\Gallo. At best I think it'd be a combined effort and he wouldn't clearly separate himself from the others.

Not even 100% to do with his talent, just Denver as a team.

[talamo]

Harden is a good player, but is he good enough to be the leader/star player of a playoff caliber squad?

probably not, especially with the new flopping rules his numbers will never be the same. role player 4 life :rockon:

[Timmy D for MVP]

I think he could in the east, but that team would be a perennial first round exit.

[StateOfMind12]

I dunno if I'm crazy in saying this but I don't even see him being the best player on the Denver Nuggets. I think he'd fall in as just another piece of the puzzle. I think Lawson would be better and he'd be right there with Iggy\Gallo. At best I think it'd be a combined effort and he wouldn't clearly separate himself from the others.

Not even 100% to do with his talent, just Denver as a team.
The only one I could see being better than Harden is McGee and Faried. Faried is a beast. Lawson is not better and Iggy is not better although I would rather have Iggy on my team especially as a 2nd/3rd option but as a 1st option Harden reigns superior.

[IGotACoolStory]

Maybe the 8th seed in the East.

[Bigsmoke]

he's Joe Johnson with a beard.

so yeah

[Papaya Petee]

Say he had a supporting cast of like Lowry, Iguodala, Josh Smith, and Gorrat then sure!

[coin24]

:roll: :roll: no chance..
That guy is so overrated its not funny...

Joe Johnson >> harden..

[AK47DR91]

Not a caliber playoff team, but I think he's capable of leading a team into the playoffs(1st Round exit) a couple of seasons. And maybe one surprising playoff run, like 1st Round upset or CF series appearance.

I think Harden's ceiling as the lead dog would be similar to Glenn Robinson in Milwaukee or Glen Rice in Miami and Charlotte. 2 or 3 playoff appearances and 1 surprising playoff run.

[KG215]

Say he had a supporting cast of like Lowry, Iguodala, Josh Smith, and Gorrat then sure!

If that was his supporting cast, he'd probably be the third best player on the team; second at best.

[fsvr54]

:roll: :roll: no chance..
That guy is so overrated its not funny...

Joe Johnson >> harden..

I have to agree with this guy, harden is incredibly overrated. How is Lawson not better than him?

[bdreason]

I hear a lot of comparisons to Joe Johnson. I certainly think JJ is a good enough player to be the lead dog on a playoff caliber team.

[IGOTGAME]

I feel confident that he will eventually be able to do it. He is really young and skilled. I have no doubt he could be the lead dog on a team like Indiana.

[I<3NBA]

we saw what happened when Miami zoned in on him. :lol

[PyrrhusX]

Soooo, against the bulls in pre-season action with maybe a suspect groin Harden explodes for 2-17 playing starter minutes against a probable bulls lineup.

While it might not prove anything or show much, I feel he has stayed missing since going on a early holiday in Miami last year. I personally dont feel he can be a first option and I do not feel he is worth a max contract. I hope we ship him out for picks or something rather than potentially tieing up our money into 3 jump shooters and a developing big.

I dunno bout other OKC fans out there, but I aint feeling this guy no more. I hope Perry Jones can develop into a serviceable 6th man and I hope OKC spends the cash on a C/Low post threat.

[lilgodfather1]

I think he could, but the team would be swept. He would average 20ppg, on 42% shooting.

He would be one of the best second options in the league though imo.

[Walker]

I hear a lot of comparisons to Joe Johnson. I certainly think JJ is a good enough player to be the lead dog on a playoff caliber team.
He's not really, one could even argue Josh Smith was more important in Atlanta than JJ.

Although I do see JJ and Harden in a similair light in terms of roles on a team. Exceptional 2nd/3rd option, just doesn't quite cut it as the man.

[Yung D-Will]

What do you mean a lead dog on a playoff team? There's people good enough to be a lead dog on teams that get eliminated in the first round consistantly, Harden would perfectly fill that role just like JJ.


And Ty Lawson, Harden and Eric Gordon are all pretty close imo.

[Pushxx]

Championship with Harden...
...as your best player? Never.
...as your second best? Nope.
...as you third best? Sure, if he doesn't shoot 37% FG and you have two superstars...

Dude couldn't buy a shot in the Finals.

[Whoah10115]

I guess the new in-vogue thing is to say this guy is overrated.

[Eric Cartman]

He would be slighty better than a Joe Johnson when he got traded from the Suns to Atlanta. Not the type of guy that will lead you to championships, but surrounded by a good supporting cast can be the leader of a perennial 2nd round finishers.

[plUto or bUst]

James Harden is not a leader. Even if he was the best player on a playoff caliber team (and this team would be a first round exit), he wouldn't be the one leading them. It would be some grizzled veteran like Tyson Chandler taking the leadership reigns.

The best player is not always the leader. Look at the Knicks, for example.

[pauk]

Yes i think so.

[SCdac]

Joe Johnson, who played 40+ mpg and started every game in his PHX and initial ATL days, was better than Harden... and look how far Johnson went? first-second round exits in a weak conference.

[KG215]

Soooo, against the bulls in pre-season action with maybe a suspect groin Harden explodes for 2-17 playing starter minutes against a probable bulls lineup.

While it might not prove anything or show much, I feel he has stayed missing since going on a early holiday in Miami last year. I personally dont feel he can be a first option and I do not feel he is worth a max contract. I hope we ship him out for picks or something rather than potentially tieing up our money into 3 jump shooters and a developing big.

I dunno bout other OKC fans out there, but I aint feeling this guy no more. I hope Perry Jones can develop into a serviceable 6th man and I hope OKC spends the cash on a C/Low post threat.

This doesn't necessarily pertain to the thread topic.

Last night was interesting to watch, for sure. I wouldn't take a whole lot from it, though.

A few things:

1. It was his third preseason game.

2. He played the majority of his minutes with Perkins and Thabo, which is not ideal personnel to have on the floor with a player like James. Not to mention Chicago was using whoever was guarding Perkins or Thabo to throw double teams and traps at Harden.

3. He still got some good looks that just weren't falling last night for whatever reason. Hopefully he's still not hungover from his piss poor Finals performance and the partying he did in Miami.

4. Despite the awful shooting numbers, he still had 7 assists and 7 rebounds and made some nice plays down the stretch dishing off to teammates after breaking down the defense and getting into the lane.

5. I did notice he settled for more jumpers than we're accustomed to seeing. On plays he'd normally try to get all the way to basket, he was stopping and settling or 12-17 foot jumpers.


The more I see of Perry Jones, the more excited I get about him falling to us that late in the 1st round. His shot wasn't falling last night, but he still had some impressive finishes in traffic at the rim.

And how about Serge? His offensive game has looked better than ever in the preseason. And those corner threes? He's averaging 16.2 ppg on 59% shooting and he's 4/6 from three.

[DuMa]

Yes. you put him on the Bulls, they would carry his Bearded ass to the playoffs

[TheMarkMadsen]

as the lead scorer? yes...
as the lead player? no...


THis

[BlueandGold]

Could Westbrook even do this? I think a lot of people are seriously under-rating Durant.

[IGOTGAME]

Could Westbrook even do this? I think a lot of people are seriously under-rating Durant.

Of course he could. He is a top 12 player in the league.

As far as Harden, he is only 23 and has a great talent. I see no reason why he can't lead a team to the playoffs in the future. He actually reminds me of a poor mans Ginoboli. I do want to emphasize "poor mans" because he doesn't have 1/100th of the heart of Manu Ginobili.

[KyrieTheFuture]

He didn't want to be a first option.

[AK47DR91]

So....

It's time for Harden to show if he has what it takes to be the #1 option.

Yes, Harden will be the #1 guy in Houston. Lin will be #2/facilitator.

[LoneyROY7]

I'm leaning towards no.

[R.I.P.]

About to find out. I

[Jacks3]

Yes. Look at his numbers with Durant/Westbrook on the bench. Still ridiculously good.

[AK47DR91]

This thread is now the James Harden Statistics Tracker thread. :applause:

My prediction is 24 PPG to lead the Rockets for 2012-13 season.

[DukeDelonte13]

Still can't believe he wouldn't take OKC's deal.

[BuffaloBill]

Dis gon b good.


Harden has many doubters now after his performance in the finals. But I think he will shine in Houston. I see him averaging anywhere from 21 to 24 ppg. And best case is leading the Rockets to a playoff spot in the tough west.

[AK47DR91]

Dis gon b good.


Harden has many doubters now after his performance in the finals. But I think he will shine in Houston. I see him averaging anywhere from 21 to 24 ppg. And best case is leading the Rockets to a playoff spot in the tough west.
They're gonna need him to average around 24 PPG if they want a playoff spot.

Lin won't average more than 16 PPG. Same with Asik (15 and 12 type guy).

[L.Kizzle]

Toni Kukoc

[daily]

Yes. Look at his numbers with Durant/Westbrook on the bench. Still ridiculously good.
Harden and the bench mob last year without Durant or Westbrook were +14.6 pts per 100 possessions, better than the starting lineup of OKC which was something like 7.9

Starters obviously play against better talent but it's still a solid number for OKC's bench mob led by Harden

[Pushxx]

Where are all of Houston's shots gonna come from? Harden is more a playmaker not a shot taker like Kevin Martin. Add in Lin's turnovers and that is going to be one offensively anemic team.

Asik is a beast but he's only ~10 PPG.

By the way, Harden is one greedy mofo to leave a guaranteed championship contender for several years over 5 million out of 60 million dollars over 4 years.

This makes the Jeff Green deal look like a steal, since they are going to average similar numbers just at different positions this year. Harden doesn't deserve a max deal. Only players who could be at least your second best player on a championship team ever deserve a max deal. That's my thinking.

Rockets 22 wins.

[Whoah10115]

Where are all of Houston's shots gonna come from? Harden is more a playmaker not a shot taker like Kevin Martin. Add in Lin's turnovers and that is going to be one offensively anemic team.

Asik is a beast but he's only ~10 PPG.

By the way, Harden is one greedy mofo to leave a guaranteed championship contender for several years over 5 million out of 60 million dollars over 4 years.

This makes the Jeff Green deal look like a steal, since they are going to average similar numbers just at different positions this year. Harden doesn't deserve a max deal. Only players who could be at least your second best player on a championship team ever deserve a max deal. That's my thinking.

Rockets 22 wins.



:oldlol:



They won 34 last year, in 66 games.


Anyway, Harden is an all-around player. He scores. He's going to score. And they have a ton of solid players all over the roster.

[Noob Saibot]

say what? just last week i said Harden would have to be the next breakout SG, now he's on a weaker team to get that chance. Plus he can make Jeremy Lin even more popular. :eek:

[IGOTGAME]

This is gonna make Lin so much more effective. Takes away the pressure of having to play point because Harden is so skilled. Now Houston has three play makes on the wings. They will play a very exciting style of ball. Should be fun watching Fox games this year.

[ILLsmak]

Yeah you can be an amazing talent and not want to be the lead guy. He's not a lead guy, I don't think... you have to be a special person to really take a team on your back. There are so many guys that won't.

Think of Tim Duncan, for instance... people will slay me for saying this, but he's not a lead guy. He's got Manu and Parker who can come out and just chuck the game away and it's like damn you guys ****ed up... oh well.

Very few players can go out there (and this is one thing to Kobe's credit) and chuck a game away and be okay the next game. I don't think Harden is one of them. Unfortunately, the Rockets need him to be...

He has to shoot. If he stops shooting, his team will suffer. He can continue to get efficient stats, but it will affect the other players who NEED someone to be that go-to guy. He has to be a 25 ppg scorer IMO. He is capable, but is he mentally tough to shrug off those games where he gets 18 points on 30 shots?

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Harden and the bench mob last year without Durant or Westbrook were +14.6 pts per 100 possessions, better than the starting lineup of OKC which was something like 7.9

Starters obviously play against better talent but it's still a solid number for OKC's bench mob led by Harden

Yea but when you are on the bench it's not the same as knowing you HAVE to play well or you lose. coming out and knowing the first play will put the ball in your hands and you have to set the tone is much different than being in a "bench mob."

Hell Toni Kukoc was a beast off the bench.

-Smak

[NuggetsFan]

Think of Tim Duncan, for instance... people will slay me for saying this, but he's not a lead guy. He's got Manu and Parker who can come out and just chuck the game away and it's like damn you guys ****ed up... oh well.


Quite obvious Timmy's not the same player he once was. Hasn't been for awhile. Don't think you'd get slayed for saying that.

[daily]

Yea but when you are on the bench it's not the same as knowing you HAVE to play well or you lose. coming out and knowing the first play will put the ball in your hands and you have to set the tone is much different than being in a "bench mob."

Hell Toni Kukoc was a beast off the bench.

-Smak:lol Get out of here with that new age mumbo jumbo. it's basketball. Ball, hole, play, Harden will be fine as a starter.

[KDthunderup]

Yea but when you are on the bench it's not the same as knowing you HAVE to play well or you lose. coming out and knowing the first play will put the ball in your hands and you have to set the tone is much different than being in a "bench mob."

Hell Toni Kukoc was a beast off the bench.

-Smak
Harden is going to draw much more attention from defenses aswell, he doesn't have WB and KD to space the floor for him.

[Jacks3]

Harden and the bench mob last year without Durant or Westbrook were +14.6 pts per 100 possessions, better than the starting lineup of OKC which was something like 7.9

Starters obviously play against better talent but it's still a solid number for OKC's bench mob led by Harden

Yup.

OKC offense w/James Harden: 114.96 points per 100 possessions
OKC offense w/o James Harden: 100.84 points per 100 possessions

PLAYOFFS

OKC offense w/James Harden: 115.13 points per 100 possessions
OKC offense w/o James Harden: 102.46 points per 100 possessions

League average offense: 104.6 points per 100 possessions
Leauge best offense: 110.9 points per 100 possesions

Harden is basically a more durable version of Manu.

What a dumb move by Presti.

[brandonislegend]

Yup.

OKC offense w/James Harden: 114.96 points per 100 possessions
OKC offense w/o James Harden: 100.84 points per 100 possessions

PLAYOFFS

OKC offense w/James Harden: 115.13 points per 100 possessions
OKC offense w/o James Harden: 102.46 points per 100 possessions

League average offense: 104.6 points per 100 possessions
Leauge best offense: 110.9 points per 100 possesions

Harden is basically a more durable version of Manu.

What a dumb move by Presti.

Those numbers are ridiculous, even though I think the trade was fair, those numbers are crazy.

[Timmy D for MVP]

The Rockets are going to need offensive focus I think. It should be interesting to watch this team grow. :oldlol:

[blacknapalm]

didn't see a thread on this...

i say 22/5/5/45%. i think he struggles a bit at first before finding his footing. i see FG% taking the biggest dip. can't say he'll be a superstar but eventual all-star is likely...he's really going to have to work on his mid-range game.

[Jacks3]

22/5/4/58-60% TS. Awesome advanced stats. Huge +/- numbers.

[spiegel]

I dont know about next season, but this season he will get 15 to 25 shots a game in Houston. He could average 24 to 26 a game this season

[TheeBeast]

If Arron Brooks could average 19 on the Rockets, I'm putting Harden at 23/4/5

[BlitzForce]

Harden goes left, Lin goes right

double penetration! :djparty

[bdreason]

Who would have thought Harden was traded after making this thread. Most people's opinion seems to be that Harden couldn't be the lead dog... well, we're about to find out. I doubt the Rockets have any chance at the playoffs out West though.

[All Net]

Lets now see and we will find out soon...

[blacknapalm]

harden's stats with westbrook on/off the court:

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Russell-Westbrook|201935,201566;year=201112;season=r

as you can see, harden actually scores more on a higher % when westbrook is on the bench. close to 37% of harden's minutes come with westbrook on the bench.

now for his stats with durant on/off the court:

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Kevin-Durant|201935,201142;year=201112;season=r

again, his points and FG% increase while he effectively gets to the line. about 25% of harden's minutes come with durant on the bench (and westbrook overlaps w/ durant a lot).

this kind of shoots down the theory that harden is only a product of playing next to durant/wb.

you also see how much they all make each other better with the +/-. durant's +/- drop differential is actually greater than harden's without durant. same with westbrook...his + status goes way down when harden hits the bench.

could it be that many of harden's possessions lead to points, assists or FTs? hmm....

[Owl]

There probably needs to be clarity about what is meant by "lead" and "playoff caliber".

Assuming what is meant is "be the best player" and "a team that makes the playoffs" then yes, easily. Danny Granger did it, for example. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2011.html

Some people don't seem to get how good James Harden is.

Here's a list of the (all-time) guards who have been in Harden (last year)'s ballpark in terms of shooting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&qual=&c1stat=ts_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.650&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=200&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=per&c4comp=gt&c4val=-1000&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws_per_48#stats::30

Most were specialist shooters on low usage and low minutes. The best comp seems to be Manu, a super efficient scorer, who gets to the line and a very well rounded player who contributes in all areas. The difference is that theres a fair chance Harden can be a 36+ mpg player whilst Manu could/can only ever play a max of 32 minutes. Now obviously %s fluctuate significantly year to year but Harden's career ts% is over .600 so I can't see him doing badly in that area. He may even end up getting more calls now that he's his team's star.

Harden is a max player (certainly now the max is lower). It will be interesting to see how he does taking on more shots but based on what we've seen thus far he should be fine.

[blacknapalm]

There probably needs to be clarity about what is meant by "lead" and "playoff caliber".

Assuming what is meant is "be the best player" and "a team that makes the playoffs" then yes, easily. Danny Granger did it, for example. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2011.html

Some people don't seem to get how good James Harden is.

Here's a list of the (all-time) guards who have been in Harden (last year)'s ballpark in terms of shooting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&qual=&c1stat=ts_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.650&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=200&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=per&c4comp=gt&c4val=-1000&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws_per_48#stats::30

Most were specialist shooters on low usage and low minutes. The best comp seems to be Manu, a super efficient scorer, who gets to the line and a very well rounded player who contributes in all areas. The difference is that theres a fair chance Harden can be a 36+ mpg player whilst Manu could/can only ever play a max of 32 minutes. Now obviously %s fluctuate significantly year to year but Harden's career ts% is over .600 so I can't see him doing badly in that area. He may even end up getting more calls now that he's his team's star.

Harden is a max player (certainly now the max is lower). It will be interesting to see how he does taking on more shots but based on what we've seen thus far he should be fine.

well said. i didn't want to bring up manu even though the comparison is almost inevitable. manu only played 30 mpg twice in his whole career yet people want to say he was a solid #1 option. he never scored 20 ppg or had 5 apg or 5 rpg.

chalk it up to pop's minutes if you want but i think if you look at manu's per 36, that's about where harden will get at. even the TO's tend to add up.

[JMT]

Yeah you can be an amazing talent and not want to be the lead guy. He's not a lead guy, I don't think... you have to be a special person to really take a team on your back. There are so many guys that won't.

Very few players can go out there (and this is one thing to Kobe's credit) and chuck a game away and be okay the next game. I don't think Harden is one of them. Unfortunately, the Rockets need him to be...

He has to shoot. If he stops shooting, his team will suffer. He can continue to get efficient stats, but it will affect the other players who NEED someone to be that go-to guy. He has to be a 25 ppg scorer IMO. He is capable, but is he mentally tough to shrug off those games where he gets 18 points on 30 shots?

-Smak

I watched Harden virtually ever game of his college career, and that has always been my take on the guy. Lots of talent and ability, but not what the NFL calls the "Cornerback/quarterback" mentality" : the ability to handle all the pressure to produce, night in and night out, along with the selective amnesia to forget those halves/nights when you don't.

He's a few years older and has established some NBA comfort level, but I'll personally be surprised if he can be the unquestioned lead guy on a team that's anything but mediocre.

[bmulls]

harden's stats with westbrook on/off the court:

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Russell-Westbrook|201935,201566;year=201112;season=r

as you can see, harden actually scores more on a higher % when westbrook is on the bench. close to 37% of harden's minutes come with westbrook on the bench.

now for his stats with durant on/off the court:

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player-vs-player.html#James-Harden-vs-Kevin-Durant|201935,201142;year=201112;season=r

again, his points and FG% increase while he effectively gets to the line. about 25% of harden's minutes come with durant on the bench (and westbrook overlaps w/ durant a lot).

this kind of shoots down the theory that harden is only a product of playing next to durant/wb.

you also see how much they all make each other better with the +/-. durant's +/- drop differential is actually greater than harden's without durant. same with westbrook...his + status goes way down when harden hits the bench.

could it be that many of harden's possessions lead to points, assists or FTs? hmm....

Did you account for the fact that 95% of the time Harden was playing with Durant/Westbrook on the bench he was playing against other teams' 2nd unit?

[Pushxx]

:oldlol:



They won 34 last year, in 66 games.


Anyway, Harden is an all-around player. He scores. He's going to score. And they have a ton of solid players all over the roster.


Before Harden I had them as a sub-20 win team. Sure they won about half their games last year but their roster is almost entirely different.

It just looked like the worst roster in the league to me. Even worse than the Magic and Bobcats.

[Whoah10115]

Before Harden I had them as a sub-20 win team. Sure they won about half their games last year but their roster is almost entirely different.

It just looked like the worst roster in the league to me. Even worse than the Magic and Bobcats.




The worst? Don't get me wrong, they have an odd mix. They just have lots and lots of players. But, all of their players can play. It was just a mishmash before. They just got rid of 2 SG's and they're bringing in Harden. The team is suddenly a lot better.




The difference is that theres a fair chance Harden can be a 36+ mpg player whilst Manu could/can only ever play a max of 32 minutes.



This does not tell the story. Tony Parker doesn't play many minutes either. Never has.

Parker has played 36Min exactly 0 times. His career average is 32.9.


That's just the way the Spurs go. Even Duncan, before he started declining, had minutes reduced. After he won his 2nd MVP his minutes dropped to 36.6 and after that he never played 35Min again.

[bagelred]

this kind of shoots down the theory that harden is only a product of playing next to durant/wb.



OK, but let's remember many of Harden's minutes are against other teams 2nd unit......so.........now he'll be competing against other teams starters .:confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

They're gonna need him to average around 24 PPG if they want a playoff spot.

Lin won't average more than 16 PPG. Same with Asik (15 and 12 type guy).
What on earth has given you the impression that Omer Asik can average 15 PPG?

[blacknapalm]

OK, but let's remember many of Harden's minutes are against other teams 2nd unit......so.........now he'll be competing against other teams starters .:confusedshrug:

oh certainly. actually played my own devil's advocate and brought that up in another thread. still think it's a fairly telling stat

[PP34Deuce]

typing from cell phone...

this deal tells me okc didnt feel he was wortg more than ibaka. also tells me they want flexibility n westbrook and durant are cornerstones whick makes sense. i see them wanting westbrook to handle the ball. i also see them wanting eric maynor to run a traditional second unit and pj3 has impressed.

hardens play in finals influenced okc,to not spend,tge bank on him.

[CeltsGarlic]

He could be nr1 scorer and go to guy in the clutch, but I expect rockets wont be too much dependent on the beard. With our young guys developing, in a few years I see strong team fighting for top spots.

[chosen_one6]

Did you account for the fact that 95% of the time Harden was playing with Durant/Westbrook on the bench he was playing against other teams' 2nd unit?

Exaaaaactly. Harden isn't suddenly going to go beast mode against every teams best wing defender.

[daily]

Did you account for the fact that 95% of the time Harden was playing with Durant/Westbrook on the bench he was playing against other teams' 2nd unit?
That's a bunch of BS. Google before you type. from looking at it it's safe to say that it;s closer to 95% of the time Harden was on the floor with Durant and Westbrook

Number one most seen combination on the floor for 688 minutes last season, Westbrook-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

Number two most seen combination on the floor last year 408 minutes, Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

#5 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Collison
#6 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Collison-Perkins
#7 Westbrook-Harden-Sefolosha-Durant
*8 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Collison

Number one offensive combination on the floor last year, Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

Of the top 10 win% of player combos (OKC used 20 different variations last season) Harden is in 8 of the top 10 combinations

[brandonislegend]

That's a bunch of BS. Google before you type. from looking at it it's safe to say that it;s closer to 95% of the time Harden was on the floor with Durant and Westbrook

Number one most seen combination on the floor for 688 minutes last season, Westbrook-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

Number two most seen combination on the floor last year 408 minutes, Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

#5 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Collison
#6 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Collison-Perkins
#7 Westbrook-Harden-Sefolosha-Durant
*8 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Collison

Number one offensive combination on the floor last year, Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

Of the top 10 win% of player combos (OKC used 20 different variations last season) Harden is in 8 of the top 10 combinations

:applause:

[gyu]

Harden didn't face other teams benchs 95% of the time, simple math would tell you that.
He averaged 31 minutes a game, starters usually play 35 minutes a game so that leaves about 13 minutes for the bench players to play.

[bmulls]

That's a bunch of BS. Google before you type. from looking at it it's safe to say that it;s closer to 95% of the time Harden was on the floor with Durant and Westbrook

Number one most seen combination on the floor for 688 minutes last season, Westbrook-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

Number two most seen combination on the floor last year 408 minutes, Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

#5 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Collison
#6 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Collison-Perkins
#7 Westbrook-Harden-Sefolosha-Durant
*8 Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Collison

Number one offensive combination on the floor last year, Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perkins

Of the top 10 win% of player combos (OKC used 20 different variations last season) Harden is in 8 of the top 10 combinations

You misunderstood my post. I'm not saying Harden didn't play with Durant/Westbrook. The guy I quoted was saying Harden's stats were good/better while he was on the floor alone (ie running the offense with Durant and Westbrook on the bench) than while he was playing alongside them.

My point was in those situations (Harden on the floor, Durant/Westbrook on the bench) he was usually playing against the other teams' 2nd unit.

[liquidrage]

Harden's gonna have a lot of 6-25 nights with 5 TO's where the team loses by 24 type of nights. That's all I'm sayin.

[SCdac]

Harden's gonna have a lot of 6-25 nights with 5 TO's where the team loses by 24 type of nights. That's all I'm sayin.

Even if he averages great numbers as the best player, the Rockets are still a borderline playoff team. Bad nights and good nights are going to happen. From an outsider looking in, Harden, Lin, and Asik isn't exactly a scary foundation (but it is a start). Kind of reminds me of the mid-2000's Bulls (Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, Luol Deng, Tyson Chandler, etc). Good enough to make the playoffs (and lose early) with 40-47 wins in the weak eastern conference. But in the west right now it's going to be tougher.

[bizil]

As of now, it would have to be a team like the 2004 Pistons for Harden to be the top player. Or a becoming a missing piece for a very deep team like Denver. When u look at SG's like MJ, Kobe, West, Wade, T-Mac, and Drexler, they were all great scorers AND great all around players. Harden as of now is a very good scorer and very good all around. So as taletned as he is, he's a tier or likely two below these kind of guys right now.

U also have dominate weapons like Pete, Monroe, Iverson, and Gervin. Harden hasn't proven he can totally dominate a game like these guys scoring the rock. AI and Pete can also swing to PG and play it better than Harden does when he swings to PG. And let's not forget guys like Thompson, Mitch, etc.

I name all of these legends because they are ALL DOMINANT PLAYERS. They are true alpha dogs and the standard in that regard for the position. If anything, Harden is more line with a Dumars, Joe Johnson or Ginobli kind of impact. Which is being an elite multiple time All Star kind of player who can even accumulate an HOF resume or close. But all guys who aren't as dominant as the epic SG's in terms of dominance.

[rodman91]

He is only 23 years old. I think he can be lead player in a playoff caliber team. He doesn't need to be as good as some of the legends to carry a team in playoffs.

However, I don't think he'll be lead player in Rockets after couple of seasons. I think he'll be option b or side kick for franchise player.

[AK47DR91]

This thread is now the James Harden Statistics Tracker thread. :applause:

My prediction is 24 PPG to lead the Rockets for 2012-13 season.
Game 1 (W):
37 points on 14-25 shooting(4-10 from 3's), 6 boards, 12 dimes, 4 steals and a block.

:bowdown:

[Fatstogie]

I personally don't think so. I think his game style is much more suited to coming off the bench/being a complimentary player.. like Manu.


He can easily out score westbrook. harden is a starter. It was a good move for basketball for him to go to rockets and i think hell be in the chase for leading scorer this year.

[pauk]

Um... yes.. :pimp:

[AK47DR91]

Game 1 (W):
37 points on 14-25 shooting(4-10 from 3's), 6 boards, 12 dimes, 4 steals and a block.

:bowdown:
Game 2 (W):
45 points on 14-19 shooting(2-4 from 3's), 7 boards, 2 assists.

[AK47DR91]

This thread is now the James Harden Statistics Tracker thread. :applause:

My prediction is 24 PPG to lead the Rockets for 2012-13 season.
:facepalm @ me.... I'm way off with 24 PPG.

[pauk]

lol @ the first posts...

[Graviton]

I wanna see him vs Bulls/Heat defense. But he has games vs Denver/Memphis soon, lets see if Tony Allen or Iggy can stop him.

[AK47DR91]

Game 2 (W):
45 points on 14-19 shooting(2-4 from 3's), 7 boards, 2 assists.
Game 3 (L) Houston home opener vs Blazers:
24 points on 8-24 shooting(1-6 from 3's), 6 boards, 5 dimes and 5 TO's.

[SCdac]

Harden's hot start reminds me of Brandon Jennings a few years ago opening with 25, 32, and 55 point games. Big difference is Harden isn't a rookie, but it's reminiscent because every team is rusty and some players start off like they're in mid-season form (Harden played ball all summer pretty much). Like Jennings though, Harden will come down to earth. Especially as the team realizes he won't be able to carry the team to wins to the extent of 30-40+ points a game. Rockets tonight shot .35% as a team and didn't break the 85 point mark, despite Harden totaling a respectable 24 points. I like Harden's playing style though (seeing as Manu is my fav player), looking forward to him embracing the role.

[ILLsmak]

It looked like he was gonna get it done before he rolled his ankle.

As long as he keeps shooting. I know it isn't the same, but I twisted my ankle playing ball recently and it's amazing how much of a sprain you can continue to play on. Then you wake up the next day and can't even put pressure on it.

So, take that into account.

-Smak

[DMV2]

27 games so far:

25.8 PPG on 44.9% shooting (incl. 35.9% from 3's) and 8.6/10 at the FT line
4.5 boards/game, 5.3 dimes/game and 1.8 stl/game
3.6 to/game isn't good but that seem like the average for many #1 option players

And the Rockets are 16-12 (Harden missed 1 game, the one where Lin scored 38 vs SAS)

[Mr Exlax]

And everybody wants to call Morey insane. He got us a young stud. Just so happen to be one of my favorite players. All we gotta do now is get Dwight.

[pnyozzzoo]

27 games so far:

25.8 PPG on 44.9% shooting (incl. 35.9% from 3's) and 8.6/10 at the FT line
4.5 boards/game, 5.3 dimes/game and 1.8 stl/game
3.6 to/game isn't good but that seem like the average for many #1 option players

And the Rockets are 16-12 (Harden missed 1 game, the one where Lin scored 38 vs SAS)
Actually is kinda 2, Visited Utah and got sick, played 1 half gazillion TO.s and 3 pts something, could not come back sec half. I wish he did not play that game.

This is a guy that's basically 26, 5,5. with 60% TS and only can improve. Smart and low key. great leader. The rockets culture is getting amazing, everyone is likable no ego, play unselfish teamball, work hard go about business,no boneheaded play, no showboating yelling, demanding of certain things. Hopefully it can keep it that way. Professional and mature like the spurs.

This guy can kill as first option in regular season with good cast. We'll see in off season.

[TheAesirsFinest]

And everybody wants to call Morey insane. He got us a young stud. Just so happen to be one of my favorite players. All we gotta do now is get Dwight.

**** no. That man-child has the potential to be poison for our young guys and locker room.

[TylerOO]

Noooope. He's not THAT good. He'd at most average 20 points on 45% shooting and fail as a lead dog.
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Droid101]

Noooope. He's not THAT good. He'd at most average 20 points on 45% shooting and fail as a lead dog.
Hehe

[DMV2]

27 games so far:

25.8 PPG on 44.9% shooting (incl. 35.9% from 3's) and 8.6/10 at the FT line
4.5 boards/game, 5.3 dimes/game and 1.8 stl/game
3.6 to/game isn't good but that seem like the average for many #1 option players

And the Rockets are 16-12 (Harden missed 1 game, the one where Lin scored 38 vs SAS)
UPDATE: 49 games, 47 full games played (missed 1 game, played half a game due to injury) | Rockets 26-23, holding on the 8th seed, while also battling for 7th.

25.8 PPG on 44% shooting (incl. 32.8% from 3's).
4.5 RPG and 5.5 APG
1.8 STL, 0.5 BLK and a high 3.8 TO/game

He is a legit #1 option! Now gotta see if he's a #1 option for a playoff team.

[DMV2]

Looks like he'll finish with 25.9 or 26 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 5.9 APG on a #7 or #8 seed playoff team. Still has 14 minutes of game play vs Lakers.

AK47DR91 was nearly on spot. :pimp:

Originally Posted by AK47DR91
This thread is now the James Harden Statistics Tracker thread.

My prediction is 24 PPG to lead the Rockets for 2012-13 season.


Not a caliber playoff team, but I think he's capable of leading a team into the playoffs(1st Round exit) a couple of seasons. And maybe one surprising playoff run, like 1st Round upset or CF series appearance.

I think Harden's ceiling as the lead dog would be similar to Glenn Robinson in Milwaukee or Glen Rice in Miami and Charlotte. 2 or 3 playoff appearances and 1 surprising playoff run.