How does Kobe's legacy change by winning a 6th or 7th ring in an "unwinnable" system? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

poido123

11-12-2012, 07:30 PM

No matter what the system, you can guarantee that kobe will be getting his. Even in D'Antoni system that will focus alot of direction through the point guard Steve Nash, I can see problems where Kobe will want to be involved alot more than just a spot up shooter. This will only work if Kobe is prepared to sit back and let the ball come to him, whether he accepts that I really dont know. :confusedshrug:

NumberSix

11-12-2012, 07:33 PM

The real question is, how does carrying old players in an "unwinnable" system change D12's legacy?

I<3NBA

11-12-2012, 07:38 PM

with an unwinnable roster to boot

Rubio2Gasol

11-12-2012, 07:39 PM

The real question is, how does carrying old players in an "unwinnable" system change D12's legacy?

Needs to play defense before he starts thinking about legacy and such.

RRR3

11-12-2012, 07:40 PM

Needs to play defense before he starts thinking about legacy and such.
Dwight is already sick of bailing out the Lakers perimeter players on defense.

TheMarkMadsen

11-12-2012, 07:40 PM

in this system he is just raja bell. It won't change much. Kobe will shot a bad percentage because Nash will just feed him for bailout shots.

:facepalm

Kobe was still a top 5 player in his 16th season.. I think the guy will be able to adjust to whatever is thrown at him.

TheMarkMadsen

11-12-2012, 07:42 PM

The real question is, how does carrying old players in an "unwinnable" system change D12's legacy?

The real question is, why do you constantly post in Laker related topics just to troll?

Answer: ATTENTION WHORE.

poido123

11-12-2012, 07:52 PM

:facepalm

Kobe was still a top 5 player in his 16th season.. I think the guy will be able to adjust to whatever is thrown at him.

Hmm, it won't be easy for Kobe to adjust. First, he has to let Nash be in full control of the offense. Second of all, Kobe will need to accept that he will be mainly used as a jump shooter, and not the go to guy on offense. And thirdly, this offense will focus alot of plays on the P'n'R, which means that Kobe will have to accept that both Howard and Gasol will be a focal point of Nash's passes.

Rysio

11-12-2012, 07:57 PM

Hmm, it won't be easy for Kobe to adjust. First, he has to let Nash be in full control of the offense. Second of all, Kobe will need to accept that he will be mainly used as a jump shooter, and not the go to guy on offense. And thirdly, this offense will focus alot of plays on the P'n'R, which means that Kobe will have to accept that both Howard and Gasol will be a focal point of Nash's passes.
if thats how the offense will look might as well trade kobe for a better shooter.

ray allen for kobe. :applause:

TheeBeast

11-12-2012, 08:00 PM

in this system he is just raja bell. It won't change much. Kobe will shot a bad percentage because Nash will just feed him for bailout shots.

In what world could you think our current players, such as a top 5 player (Kobe Bryant) would change their roles to a past team's starting 5 inferior to theirs, never won more than two games in the 3 Western Conference Finals they went to (in 7 years) and Don't even have the same kind of Steve Nash any more?

poido123

11-12-2012, 08:04 PM

if thats how the offense will look might as well trade kobe for a better shooter.

ray allen for kobe. :applause:

First of all, Kobe is not getting traded.

To cut it short, he is the franchise player, and brings in a ton of revenue and has the authority to do or ask for almost anything he pleases.

Kobe has to take a backseat. That's how i see it.

IGOTGAME

11-12-2012, 08:05 PM

Shepseskaf

11-12-2012, 08:11 PM

Kobe isn't winning any more championships.

poido123

11-12-2012, 08:15 PM

In what world could you think our current players, such as a top 5 player (Kobe Bryant) would change their roles to a past team's starting 5 inferior to theirs, never won more than two games in the 3 Western Conference Finals they went to (in 7 years) and Don't even have the same kind of Steve Nash any more?

First of all, this is an entirely new situation where Nash has all the pieces around him to win the title. He went close a few times with the suns with inferior talent to this current team, so to say that Nash's/Dantoni's way doesn't work is foolish.

Second of all, Nash for most of his career hasnt had near the talent Kobe has had around him, so your really comparing oranges to apples.

TheeBeast

11-12-2012, 08:24 PM

First of all, this is an entirely new situation where Nash has all the pieces around him to win the title. He went close a few times with the suns with inferior talent to this current team, so to say that Nash's/Dantoni's way doesn't work is foolish.

Second of all, Nash for most of his career hasnt had near the talent Kobe has had around him, so your really comparing oranges to apples.

I think one thing people aren't considering is that the Nash and Kobe styles could co-exist, and I have faith it will. It would make them that much more deadly and something the league has never seen before.

I don't think bad of Steve, I just feel this is still a team led by Kobe. They both have almost equal work ethic and its something real special to have two of the greatest leaders of all time in our back court. If only they could both thrive off each other, which is why I feel the Lakers FO hired D'antoni over PJ. Nash just simply won't thrive in the triangle.

Kobe isn't taking a back seat though. This team could have the PHX record and at the same time the Kobe- led playoffs record :applause:

poido123

11-12-2012, 08:34 PM

I think one thing people aren't considering is that the Nash and Kobe styles could co-exist, and I have faith it will. It would make them that much more deadly and something the league has never seen before.

I don't think bad of Steve, I just feel this is still a team led by Kobe. They both have almost equal work ethic and its something real special to have two of the greatest leaders of all time in our back court. If only they could both thrive off each other, which is why I feel the Lakers FO hired D'antoni over PJ. Nash just simply won't thrive in the triangle.

Kobe isn't taking a back seat though. This team could have the PHX record and at the same time the Kobe- led playoffs record :applause:

Dude, your sounding like a Kobe stan. Why won't you just accept that Kobe isn't needed like he has been for the last decade? Times change, personnel change, systems change. They have to co-exist, but that can only be done by Nash dominating the ball, that's what your failing to understand. Kobe also won't be the focus on offense, Howard and Gasol will be, with the kickouts and jumpers going to the shooters, which will be the likes of Meeks, Jamison, Blake and Kobe. Get used to it.

TheeBeast

11-12-2012, 08:39 PM

Dude, your sounding like a Kobe stan. Why won't you just accept that Kobe isn't needed like he has been for the last decade? Times change, personnel change, systems change. They have to co-exist, but that can only be done by Nash dominating the ball, that's what your failing to understand. Kobe also won't be the focus on offense, Howard and Gasol will be, with the kickouts and jumpers going to the shooters, which will be the likes of Meeks, Jamison, Blake and Kobe. Get used to it.

I could agree with this. I'll admit, any time Kobe isn't being the most ball dominant is probably a game that they're winning. Kobe plays off the ball better than any player in the league. And he still puts in the same energy as if he has the ball

This combination could be lethal

IGOTGAME

11-12-2012, 08:43 PM

I wonder when they will start trading people. This team won't look the same after the trading deadline.

NumberSix

11-12-2012, 08:47 PM

The real question is, why do you constantly post in Laker related topics just to troll?

Answer: ATTENTION WHORE.
Probably because I've been a lakers fan since I was 13 in 1996

poido123

11-12-2012, 09:00 PM

I wonder when they will start trading people. This team won't look the same after the trading deadline.

Im guessing D'Antoni will be asking for more shooters? And obviously any improvement to the bench will be of focus. Id say they will be looking for some youth and athleticism to go along with good shooting.

Deuce Bigalow

11-12-2012, 09:07 PM

Probably because I've been a lakers fan since I was 13 in 1996
So you're a 29 year old dumbass now?

NumberSix

11-12-2012, 09:08 PM

So you're a 29 year old dumbass now?
Sure. Why not.

IGOTGAME

11-12-2012, 09:11 PM

Im guessing D'Antoni will be asking for more shooters? And obviously any improvement to the bench will be of focus. Id say they will be looking for some youth and athleticism to go along with good shooting.
I'm sure mike brown would have liked that too....

lilgodfather1

11-12-2012, 09:12 PM

It depends on how he plays. If he wins the FMVP's then it changes a lot, if not then it doesn't change much at all.

christian1923

11-12-2012, 09:13 PM

First of all, Kobe is not getting traded.

To cut it short, he is the franchise player, and brings in a ton of revenue and has the authority to do or ask for almost anything he pleases.

Kobe has to take a backseat. That's how i see it.
One of the greatest players of all time taking a backseat lol this makes no sense :lol

guy

11-12-2012, 09:41 PM

Considering Dwight's clearly and by far their best defender, with no coached defensive system, he will basically be their defensive system. If anything, it will be his legacy that gets the biggest boost because of that.

K.Koscik

11-12-2012, 09:44 PM

People acting like Mike D doesn't realize Kobe is one of the greatest offensive players in NBA history... he will tweak his system and Kobe isn't going to be a Raja Bell

poido123

11-12-2012, 09:54 PM

One of the greatest players of all time taking a backseat lol this makes no sense :lol

By backseat, I mean kobe wont be dominating the ball, or posting up as the go to guy anywhere near as much as he's used to. He may be forced into being more of a jumpshooter and letting Nash work his magic.

Rubio2Gasol

11-12-2012, 10:02 PM

Dude, your sounding like a Kobe stan. Why won't you just accept that Kobe isn't needed like he has been for the last decade? Times change, personnel change, systems change. They have to co-exist, but that can only be done by Nash dominating the ball, that's what your failing to understand. Kobe also won't be the focus on offense, Howard and Gasol will be, with the kickouts and jumpers going to the shooters, which will be the likes of Meeks, Jamison, Blake and Kobe. Get used to it.

We'll see but I think that's naive. But once he scores like 25 points it probably doesn't matter much to him.

All in all I wouldn't mind if I'm a Laker fan Kobe will get some rest, be ready for the playoffs where this particular method is not going to have the same degree of success

If he doesnt get to post up D Antoni should get fired basically.do it when Nash is out or something, but just do it.

longtime lurker

11-12-2012, 10:05 PM

It doesn't matter Kobe can only win with the most stacked roster in the league and hall of fame coach Mike D'Antoni :rolleyes:

KOBE143

11-13-2012, 01:46 AM

Nothing will change.. He's already the GOAT..

9erempiree

11-13-2012, 01:49 AM

By backseat, I mean kobe wont be dominating the ball, or posting up as the go to guy anywhere near as much as he's used to. He may be forced into being more of a jumpshooter and letting Nash work his magic.

D'antoni should not be doing this.

It will be like Phoenix all over again except we are the Lakers and have one of the greatest offensive players in history.

He better scratch that run and gun and just feed the Mamba in the post and let him do his thing.

chazzy

11-13-2012, 02:13 AM

Probably because I've been a lakers fan since I was 13 in 1996
But then you jumped off the bandwagon and followed Shaq

TheeBeast

11-13-2012, 02:17 AM

But then you jumped off the bandwagon and followed Shaq

Oh god, did he really?

:roll: :roll:

:rolleyes: :facepalm

DatAsh

11-13-2012, 02:40 AM

KG215

11-13-2012, 03:02 AM

Just because the system was "unwinnable" in Phoenix doesn't necessarily mean it's an "unwinnable" system. I'm not sure this roster is the best make-up for D'Antoni's system, but it's the most talent his system will have ever had; granted, some of those Suns teams were talented and deep.

But since OP is a Kobe fanboy, and this thread was obviously started with an agenda, Kobe winning a ring this year (even in this "unwinnable system") wouldn't change much unless he was the clear-cut best player in the playoffs. If Dwight is clearly the most important and impactful player during the playoff run, then Kobe's legacy doesn't change a whole lot. Maybe he can make a etter argument for being over someone like Bird, Wilt, or whoever you have at #5 and #6 on your list.

If he has a "turn back the clock" type playoff run ala 2008-2010, he can definitely jump up into top-5 all-time discussion. Not top-3 in my opinion, but he definitely works his way into that Jordan-Russell-Magic-Kareem-Wilt-Bird group.

The caveat "unwinnable system" is just silly. Every system is "unwinnable" until it wins. And every system is heavily dependent on talent.

mikek85

11-13-2012, 07:11 AM

He won't win. This thread is just imaginary garbage. :party: :roll: :roll:

Shepseskaf

11-13-2012, 07:26 AM

Kobe also won't be the focus on offense, Howard and Gasol will be, with the kickouts and jumpers going to the shooters, which will be the likes of Meeks, Jamison, Blake and Kobe. Get used to it.
Oh, I'm sure that Kobe will be very understanding about not being the focal point of the offense, and will have no problem getting "used to it". :lol

If MDA tries something like this, just wait for the Kobe meltdown. This is going to be fascinating to watch develop.

poido123

11-13-2012, 07:41 AM

Oh, I'm sure that Kobe will be very understanding about not being the focal point of the offense, and will have no problem getting "used to it". :lol

If MDA tries something like this, just wait for the Kobe meltdown. This is going to be fascinating to watch develop.

LOL yep, have popcorn ready ;p

poido123

11-13-2012, 07:51 AM

D'antoni should not be doing this.

It will be like Phoenix all over again except we are the Lakers and have one of the greatest offensive players in history.

He better scratch that run and gun and just feed the Mamba in the post and let him do his thing.

What was so bad about the D'Antoni system back at the suns?

As Ive mentioned in another thread, Nash and the suns were right there a few times to winning the title. Nash now has more talent around him to run the system than he ever has before. Unlike Kobe, he hasnt had the personnel except while he was at the suns to make a serious run at a title, so comparing Kobe's success to Nash's is like comparing oranges to apples.

RazorBaLade

11-13-2012, 08:14 AM

Nash puts up 10/10 last year
Limit him with triangle/princeton

"LET THE FERRARI DRIVE ON THE FREEWAY!!! WHY EVEN HAVE NASH!!!"

Kobe putting up 30 on 60%
Give him barbosa's role

"championship here we come"

I love you guys

Segatti

11-13-2012, 08:19 AM

It's not about winning a ring. If he puts 30/5/5 in the playoffs with 50% fg so his legacy will improve for sure. If he puts 20/2/3 with 42% fg not so much.

Rubio2Gasol

11-13-2012, 08:56 AM

What was so bad about the D'Antoni system back at the suns?

As Ive mentioned in another thread, Nash and the suns were right there a few times to winning the title. Nash now has more talent around him to run the system than he ever has before. Unlike Kobe, he hasnt had the personnel except while he was at the suns to make a serious run at a title, so comparing Kobe's success to Nash's is like comparing oranges to apples.

Look...here's some fundamental points you seem to be missing.

1. For context - He did have the talent to get a ring, for a 3 year stretch Phoenix were legit contenders and had all the pieces it should take to win a chip. I'm of the opinion he was screwed out of a title in 07.

2. The D Antoni system has proven ineffective because of how much it relies on 3 point shooting and how much it undervalues defense.

3. You're saying give Nash the ball and put Kobe in the corner. It will not happen like that. They're not simply going to marginalize their best offensive weapon in favor of an unproven system...one that does not even fit the personnel they have right now.

Will they use elements of that system? No doubt.

Will Kobe stop posting up, stand in the corner and shoot threes all game? :no:

4. Nash is 39, he is going to be playing 30 minutes a game and alot of that time will be spent as a spot up shooter.

MaxFly

11-13-2012, 09:15 AM

One of the things that we said at the beginning of the season was that the number of shots Bryant takes will have to drop to accommodate the increased talent and that others will have to be more assertive. As of today, Bryant is averaging 26.1/5.7/4.1 on 59.4% eFG and 16.7 shots a game. That's the fewest number of shots he has taken in 14 years. Seems that, at the very least, the number of shots he has been taking has dropped. He would not have been able to maintain that level of efficiency throughout the season, but I'm interested to see just how sharply his numbers will drop off under a new system. It is apparent that being allowed to pick his spots and score closer to the basket while needing to take fewer bail out shots and taking smarter shots overall have done wonders for his efficiency. I wonder just how much that will change.

The notion that he should be used primarily as a jump shooter is....... amusing. If that is truly how D'Antoni plans to use him, the Lakers should trade Bryant for Kevin Martin right away. They would save tons of money.

2LeTTeRS

11-13-2012, 10:48 AM

Whats the difference between the D'Antoni system and what Spoestra started running in the playoffs and has continued instituting this year? Looks pretty much the same to me.

IGOTGAME

11-13-2012, 11:28 AM

Godzuki

11-13-2012, 11:58 AM

its just dumb to me when people call it a unwinnable system :facepalm

the Suns were a top team in the league when he coached them. once he left they sucked. didn't they make the western conference semi's 2 out of 4 years? so how the fukk do people think they can't win? because they didn't win a ring when so few teams do, and the separation between wins and losses between the top teams come down to making a few more shots than the other? :facepalm

problem is there are so many sports fans caught up in thinking in a box, like everything has to be done in some particular way to win. its the same thing with know it all football heads who still yap about having to run to win in football and they become more and more outdated and behind the times as each year passes in a passers league. there was a time when the complex offense pass happy coaches were way ahead of the general mentality most coaches and GM's had of 'winning football' where they took tons of criticism.

its just such retard mentality to me but whatever. even his Knicks stint especially early on(pre Melo trade) his style was able to be competitive with a lot of better teams with much lesser talent where they'd pull off quite a few upsets altho they seemed to go into OT a lot from what i remember. and post Melo, Lin did not have the handles or quickness to run his offense. nevermind the fact that his team was constantly hurt, and even when they weren't hurt they were playing awful and missing shots and not capitalizing on their opportunities like they are now(melo). D Antoni isn't nearly as bad as his critics act but its just stupid the way a lot of people think.

i do wonder what Barkley has to say about it since i usually respect his views on things.