Destroying MYTH: Big Men over Guards / Wings

[The Mamba]

Honestly, I'm tired of this myth being perpetuated.

Yes, obviously big guys make the game easier ... particularly defense. But people forget that guards and wings, who don't need the ball delivered to them, and aren't un-reliable options in the clutch, can take over games and make others better on offense ... same ways big guys usually amplify less than stellar defenders abilities on defense.

And that isn't to say guards and wings can't be ridiculously influential with elite defense, either and anchor a team's abilities. See: Jordan, young Kobe, Pippen, current LeBron, Gary Payton, Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars

Seriously, I take these five guys over ANY center. Including the likes of Chamberlain, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem.

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Bird
4) Magic
5) Kobe

And I'm dead serious. Kareem won all his rings with elite perimeter help. As did Shaq, and so did Duncan. Only without truly elite wing / guard play was Hakeem, but the back court they had was still very good.

Those five players I've mentioned are easily the most skilled players I've ever seen. They influenced teammates on offense and defense. They're also winners. In many cases winning more rings than most big men, and sustained longevity given their skill set. If it wasn't for Bird's back, and Magic's dirty dick ... I'm sure they would've hung around even longer.

Anyone else agree? Dispute?

[ralph_i_el]

Skilled bigs will be inherently more valuable just due to the fact that there are less taller people.

that's just science

[The Mamba]

Skilled bigs will be inherently more valuable just due to the fact that there are less taller people.

that's just science
I understand the basic knowledge of can't teach size.

With that said, I'm still taking the elite superstar wing player over a big man.

Facts tell us this isn't such a bad choice, either.

[Odinn]

We all know Kobe-stans don't know much about basketball. Why did you feel you had to prove that again?..

[Segatti]

How many back to back rings did Duncan win?

Oh yea, that's right. The scavnger winner. Everytime a dynasty was on it's heels and decline, Tim Duncan's Spurs picked up a ring in the off year said team wasn't clicking.

The San Antonio Vultures. Getting fed, and eating when everything is already dead. Never the hunter.

The true test of a REAL champion is defending. That's when things get hard. Kobe led his squad to back to back, Tim Duncan? Not so much. Don't be mad.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[The Mamba]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
Articulate rebuttal.

[iamgine]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=2641

[JohnnySic]

Bigs >

[Clippersfan86]

Shaq was quite a bit more dominant and valuable to the 3 peat Lakers than KOBE... so not sure you understand your own argument.

[Odinn]

How many back to back rings did Duncan win?

Oh yea, that's right. The scavnger winner. Everytime a dynasty was on it's heels and decline, Tim Duncan's Spurs picked up a ring in the off year said team wasn't clicking.

The San Antonio Vultures. Getting fed, and eating when everything is already dead. Never the hunter.

The true test of a REAL champion is defending. That's when things get hard. Kobe led his squad to back to back, Tim Duncan? Not so much. Don't be mad.
I knew you weren't good at you job, being a stan.

You saw Duncan on my avy and you posted some bs instead of responding to my post.



Top 10 PGs ever; Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Oscar Robertson, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash, Tiny Archibald, Bob Cousy.
7x MVP , 4x FMVP , 19x Champions , 7x best player on a c'ship team.

Top 10 SGs ever: Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, George Gervin, Allen Iverson, Clyde Drexler, Pete Maravich, Dwyane Wade, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen
7x MVP , 10x FMVP , 15x Champions , 9x best player on a c'ship team

Top 10 SFs ever: Larry Bird, Julius Erving, LeBron James, Scottie Pippen, Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Elgin Baylor, John Havlicek, Alex English
10x MVP , 5x FMVP , 21x Champions , 9x best player on a c'ship team

Top 10 PFs ever: Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Bob Pettit, Kevin McHale, Elvin Hayes, Chris Webber, Pau Gasol
9x MVP , 4x FMVP , 13x Champions , 8x best player on a c'ship team

Top 10 Cs ever: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, David Robinson, George Mikan, Willis Reed, Bill Walton
23x MVP , 12x FMVP , 36x Champions , 27x best player on a c'ship team


Guards&Wings(pg, sg, sf);
24x MVP , 19x FMVP , 55x Champions , 26x best player on a c'ship team

Bigs(pf, c);
32x MVP , 16x FMVP , 49x Champions , 35x best player on a c'ship team


If you're not a athletic freak like Michael Jordan or naturally gifted player at your position like Magic Johnson, becoming a goat level player is much more easy for a big. And that's why, bigs are more valuable. Now stfu.

[andgar923]

Kobe fans and their agenda.

:facepalm

[DatAsh]

I've come to the conclusion that guards are usually more valuable on offense; bigs are usually more valuable on defense.

[ImmortalD24]

Kobe fans and their agenda.

:facepalmKobe fan here.. OP is not a Kobe fan. He's just plain old stupid.

[KyrieTheFuture]

So...you destroyed the myth by saying you'd prefer to take guards over big men? I don't think you understand how arguments work you don't win just because you have an opinion.

[Bandito]

Tell me a team besides the Bulls that has not had an all star big player? You need bigs to win case closed. Even almighty Lebron needed Bosh in order to win it all...

[andgar923]

Tell me a team besides the Bulls that has not had an all star big player? You need bigs to win case closed. Even almighty Lebron needed Bosh in order to win it all...

MJ's most overlooked and underrated accomplishment.

[Rysio]

not sure if its a myth but center is the most overrated position on this site for sure.

[kNIOKAS]

I've come to the conclusion that guards are usually more valuable on offense; bigs are usually more valuable on defense.
Yeah well you came to the pretty common knowledge there... But how can I get at you when there's OP :lol

[Whoah10115]

It's logical that with fewer taller people and with even fewer great taller people that the big man is, in itself, a more valuable piece.


But the OP makes a good point.



Then the San Antonio Scavengers come up and one has no choice but to disregard the rest of what he has to say.

[rmt]

Maybe there's a correlation between age of poster of those who value the big men vs those who don't place much value on them. I've been watching the NBA since the mid 70s and there's no way that one could not place a LOT of emphasis on big men if watching since then. This is on offense and defense - not as a previous poster suggested - on defense but not offense. The game (until recently and with the exception of MJ), has almost always been won with big men, anchoring the offense and defense, playing inside-out.

There is MJ as the only wing/guard who has won without an elite big. I can see that in recent years the rules have changed to facilitate the perimeter player and how soon (as in just last year) championships will be won on the backs of perimeter players (Lebron, Durant).

And no I don't count Kobe as one of them - Gasol/Bynum/Odom combo is elite compared to the big men of those years. Not that Kobe was not the most important piece but it wasn't until Gasol came on board that Kobe's Lakers were contenders. Lebron also needed Bosh but even with Bosh, Miami's frontline is still weak (relative to the rest of the league).

[Rubio2Gasol]

I've come to the conclusion that guards are usually more valuable on offense; bigs are usually more valuable on defense.

I concur.

[BrickingStar]

Kobe fan here.. OP is not a Kobe fan. He's just plain old stupid.


So basically a kobe fan?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe fan here.. OP is not a Kobe fan. He's just plain old stupid.

The username and register date gave it away, right?

Quit trying to save face dude. Your fanbase is the worst. lol

[Anaximandro1]

Michael Jordan is the only exception.


Olajuwon+Duncan+Shaq led their teams to 9 NBA championships.They won five titles without an All-NBA teammate.

Wade+Kobe+LeBron led their teams to 4 NBA championships.They never won a title without an All-NBA teammate.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Big Men over Guards / Wings

People say you take big men over guards because they are harder to come by. Has nothing to do with skill set.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Michael Jordan is the only exception.


Olajuwon+Duncan+Shaq led their teams to 9 NBA championships.They won five titles without an All-NBA teammate.

Wade+Kobe+LeBron led their teams to 4 NBA championships.They never won a title without an All-NBA teammate.

Duncan might've had the best team of everyone mentioned.

[blablabla]

And I'm dead serious. Kareem won all his rings with elite perimeter help. As did Shaq, and so did Duncan. Only without truly elite wing / guard play was Hakeem, but the back court they had was still very good.

Kobe had Pau and Shaq(who was better than him at that time), Magic had Kareem, Duncan did have Ginobili and Parker later in his career but his perimeter help in 99 and 2002 wasn't that good and Bird had McHale and Parish Jordan didn't have quite as much help in the frontcourt as the other guys here but Horace Grant was no slouch and Rodman is one of the best rebounders and defenders of all time

Fact is that 6 of the nba top 10 players of all time are big men

[Artillery]

Michael Jordan is the only exception.


Olajuwon+Duncan+Shaq led their teams to 9 NBA championships.They won five titles without an All-NBA teammate.

Wade+Kobe+LeBron led their teams to 4 NBA championships.They never won a title without an All-NBA teammate.

In addition, Duncan/Hakeem brought multiple championships to small markets teams that never won the title before they arrived. Meanwhile, Kobe refused to play for the small market team that drafted him and forced a trade to LA. Lebron left the small market team that drafted him to join two other superstars in Miami.

[tpols]

Duncan might've had the best team of everyone mentioned.
With how San Antonio has played snatching 1 seeds like candy without Timmy even close to being in his prime anymore its pretty obvious they are the best coached, drafted, developed, and capable of perfectly executing game plans team of the last decade.. Has very little to do with Duncan.

[SHAQisGOAT]

So...you destroyed the myth by saying you'd prefer to take guards over big men? I don't think you understand how arguments work you don't win just because you have an opinion.

Yup.

Great bigs always have more impact than great perimeter players.

[Artillery]

With how San Antonio has played snatching 1 seeds like candy without Timmy even close to being in his prime anymore its pretty obvious they are the best coached, drafted, developed, and capable of perfectly executing game plans team of the last decade.. Has very little to do with Duncan.

Yes, has very little to with Duncan despite the fact that he's the best player on the Spurs this year and the second best player on the Spurs last year.

[RaininTwos]

Tell me a team besides the Bulls that has not had an all star big player? You need bigs to win case closed. Even almighty Lebron needed Bosh in order to win it all...
:biggums:

I love how Bosh is propped up when the argument calls for it and then shat on in another thread.

You guys need to be consistent. You can't use the whole all-star angle on Lebron and then when Bosh and Rodman get compared, laugh at how easy the choice of Rodman is.

[AlexanderRight]

How many back to back rings did Duncan win?

Oh yea, that's right. The scavnger winner. Everytime a dynasty was on it's heels and decline, Tim Duncan's Spurs picked up a ring in the off year said team wasn't clicking.

The San Antonio Vultures. Getting fed, and eating when everything is already dead. Never the hunter.

The true test of a REAL champion is defending. That's when things get hard. Kobe led his squad to back to back, Tim Duncan? Not so much. Don't be mad.
This has to be the stupidest shit I've ever read on Inside Hoops. "Scavenger winners"? Are you ****ing serious?

[Legends66NBA7]

:biggums:

I love how Bosh is propped up when the argument calls for it and then shat on in another thread.

You guys need to be consistent. You can't use the whole all-star angle on Lebron and then when Bosh and Rodman get compared, laugh at how easy the choice of Rodman is.

Hey man, this might be behind you when you made this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268480

but today was the first "Jordan Worship" thread that actually referenced him as "god" from what I've seen on ISH... with other players involved like Kobe, LeBron, Bird, Magic, etc...:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281353

Thought I'd give you the heads up. :cheers:


Agree with your post too.

[Bigsmoke]

thats because there aren't any amazing bigs out right now. :confusedshrug:

I'm just saying. A team that was built around David Robinson was an automatic 50+ win team with elite defense without any other stars or standout players.

[RaininTwos]

Hey man, this might be behind you when you made this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268480

but today was the first "Jordan Worship" thread that actually referenced him as "god" from what I've seen on ISH... with other players involved like Kobe, LeBron, Bird, Magic, etc...:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281353

Thought I'd give you the heads up. :cheers:


Agree with your post too.

:lol @ that troll thread.

I totally forgot I made that thread. It's funny how people either cannot or simply refuse to think, they read until they find one thing they can post a rebuttal on instead of trying to comprehend the entire message.

Amazing how **** retentive AngelEyes was in that thread.

[rmt]

Duncan might've had the best team of everyone mentioned.

It's amazing how facts get twisted - how a 20 year old Parker, rookie Manu and 2nd year SJax are all of a sudden elite wing/guards.

Please inform me which elite guard is benched in the 4th quarter of the final game of the NBA Finals for none other than Speedy Claxton? Which elite player averages less than 15 points on 40% FG as the 2nd option on a championship team?

Manu was a rookie who averaged 9 points (38.6% FG) in the 03 playoffs.

SJax averaged 12.8 points (41% FG) as the 3rd option in the 03 playoffs.

Those are some ELITE wings/guards there - love the rewriting of history.

[Timmy D for MVP]

An elite center influences the game more than an elite wing. This is not debatable. They are also far more rare, thus why they are more valuable.

Were we to draft... outside of MJ and MAAAAYBE Lebron I'd be good with you taking those wing players if it meant I got KAJ, Wilt, Russel, etc. I think every GM in the league would be good with you doing that too. Because they recognize the undeniable value of that elite big.

What has happened, though, is that basketball is changing in the NBA. The rules changes led to a bigger focus on wing players. (We could argue as to whether the chicken or the egg came first on that one actually but I digress). There are also fewer truly elite bigs, and a severe lack of what we would consider to be traditional big men. Stretching the floor has become more important. Duncan, KG, and Dirk were sort of hybrid bigs that bridged the gap, but now you have a lot of change in how we view the roles of the big men. The Miami Heat are a prime example.

But you saw it in this last draft. The big that was considered elite went first, and it wasn't even close. When Oden/Durant went down, even though Durant was a very unique talent, most agreed that Oden was the likely top prospect because of his perceived ability. (Obviously that wasn't consensus and it didn't work out that way but the point stands).

So when I see GM's valuing these guys like they do (and drafting them high, and giving them stupid money, etc.) I think it's clear that this is no myth.

And to those who were saying it wasn't Duncan? :oldlol: :biggums:

[Legends66NBA7]

:lol @ that troll thread.

I totally forgot I made that thread. It's funny how people either cannot or simply refuse to think, they read until they find one thing they can post a rebuttal on instead of trying to comprehend the entire message.

Amazing how **** retentive AngelEyes was in that thread.

Good one.

:oldlol:

[tpols]

Yes, has very little to with Duncan despite the fact that he's the best player on the Spurs this year and the second best player on the Spurs last year.
And he wasn't and hasn't been a top 20 player in the league for either year. The spurs win with their explosive perimeter scoring and execution and have for awhile.

[creepingdeath]

OP:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc9yszy2fX1qbfnhro1_400.gif

[ninephive]

How many back to back rings did Duncan win?

Oh yea, that's right. The scavnger winner. Everytime a dynasty was on it's heels and decline, Tim Duncan's Spurs picked up a ring in the off year said team wasn't clicking.

The San Antonio Vultures. Getting fed, and eating when everything is already dead. Never the hunter.

The true test of a REAL champion is defending. That's when things get hard. Kobe led his squad to back to back, Tim Duncan? Not so much. Don't be mad.
In what way did the Spurs not end the Shaq/Kobe dynasty? In what way did they not prevent a Pistons back-2-back after the Lakers couldn't handle them in the finals the year before?

[SCdac]

Myth :roll:

Good one.

[I<3NBA]

i think OP's brain just got destroyed. Shaq was the most unstoppable force in his prime. tell me Kobe coulda defeated his team if he was on the opposing team.

[ralph_i_el]

How many back to back rings did Duncan win?

Oh yea, that's right. The scavnger winner. Everytime a dynasty was on it's heels and decline, Tim Duncan's Spurs picked up a ring in the off year said team wasn't clicking.

The San Antonio Vultures. Getting fed, and eating when everything is already dead. Never the hunter.

The true test of a REAL champion is defending. That's when things get hard. Kobe led his squad to back to back, Tim Duncan? Not so much. Don't be mad.

holy crap you are dense.

[ralph_i_el]

With how San Antonio has played snatching 1 seeds like candy without Timmy even close to being in his prime anymore its pretty obvious they are the best coached, drafted, developed, and capable of perfectly executing game plans team of the last decade.. Has very little to do with Duncan.

except for the fact that they've had duncan playing at a high level every year? He obviously plays less minutes now but his per minute stats are still in line with his career stats and he obviously makes a huge impact on defense.

pop is an all time great coach though

[tpols]

except for the fact that they've had duncan playing at a high level every year? He obviously plays less minutes now but his per minute stats are still in line with his career stats and he obviously makes a huge impact on defense.

pop is an all time great coach though
Duncan does not play at a high level anymore.. Not really close. He's 30 percent of what he used to be which was the greatest power forward of of all time. But his teams have always been good from a team standpoint. Only this bullshit second option stuff makes people look at it the wrong way.

If you gave Lebron these spurs teams minus Duncan since 04 he'd have a worse second option than he has on Miami but I guarantee his team would be better.

[rmt]

Duncan does not play at a high level anymore.. Not really close. He's 30 percent of what he used to be which was the greatest power forward of of all time. But his teams have always been good from a team standpoint. Only this bullshit second option stuff makes people look at it the wrong way.

If you gave Lebron these spurs teams minus Duncan since 04 he'd have a worse second option than he has on Miami but I guarantee his team would be better.

THIS season:

19 points
10 rebounds
2.3 assists
2.4 blocks
53.1% FG
78.9% FT
in only 30 minutes per game at 36 years of age.

[tpols]

THIS season:

19 points
10 rebounds
2.3 assists
2.4 blocks
53.1% FG
78.9% FT
in only 30 minutes per game at 36 years of age.
It's been SIX games. He has averaged 13/9 and 15/9 the past two years. He is no longer even close to an elite player and his teams are still winning the same amount of games.

[rmt]

To compare this season:

Dwight Howard/Tim Duncan

20.1 pts / 18.9 pts
10.6 rebs / 9.7 rebs
2.3 assts / 2.3 assts
2.4 blks / 2.4 blks
1.0 stls / 1.4 stls
63.3% FG / 53.1% FG
50.6% FT / 78.9% FT
3.3 TO / 1.4 TO
3.4 PF / 1.9 PF
34.7 mins / 30.1 mins

I know DH is not 100%, but that's not bad for a 36 year old.

[SCdac]

LOL 34-36 year old Duncan has been one of the best bigs in the league. Replace him with some young guy, say DeAndre Jordan, and they'd be nothing close to what they are now. Duncan is more than just statistics in a box score :facepalm

[rmt]

It's been SIX games. He has averaged 13/9 and 15/9 the past two years. He is no longer even close to an elite player and his teams are still winning the same amount of games.

Actually it's been SEVEN games for the Spurs. I know he can't keep it up for an 82 game season, but am happy that he's turned back the clock for awhile at the start of the season. I never claimed that he's close to an elite player now. You're the one who said that he "does not play at a high level any more. Not even close."

And he does provide things that NO ONE else on the Spurs provides - elite interior defense (according to Hollinger below) and post offense.

Analysis
A lighter, fresher Duncan put up the same offensive numbers, but he was able to move better defensively and showed considerably more impact at that end. Every metric indicates that Duncan was a huge factor, with Synergy stats grading Duncan well above the mean for centers. The Spurs gave up 6.2 points per 100 possessions less with him on the court, and regularized adjusted plus-minus shows him to be the league's single most impactful defensive player last season.

http://bbs.hupu.com/4326120.html

[Young X]

I agree:

- Jordan is/was more dominant than any big

- Kobe and Lebron are just as good as any big since Shaq

- Bigs can't take over games like guards/SF's

- Bigs generally become less reliable in close games

- It's true that bigs have more defensive impact, but guards have more offensive impact, so it evens out

[rmt]

Tpols, in case you think that it's because of Parker and Manu that they're winning - it's not.

Parker - 12.7 pts on 39% FG - 6 of 7 games played
Manu - 8.8 pts on 40% FG - 5 games

[Dbrog]

I was gonna put an actual response here but realized there's no point. A couple guys in this thread are just too far gone :(

[ThaRegul8r]

So...you destroyed the myth by saying you'd prefer to take guards over big men? I don't think you understand how arguments work you don't win just because you have an opinion.

Everyone's opinion is always irrefutable proof of whatever it is they're arguing.

[BlueandGold]

The value of big men has gone down significantly since the 60s, even 90s.

90s big men: Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Mutombo, Barkley, Mourning, list goes on.

00s big men: Dwight, ?, ?, ?



Everyone's opinion is always irrefutable proof of whatever it is they're arguing.

OP is a dumbass.

I win!

[Money 23]

2000s had big men, that didn't want to be called BIG MEN

Duncan is a center
Dirk is a center
Gasol is a center

Guys who either play on the low block, or 7'+ monsters who wanted to shoot jumpers instead of getting on the block.

They evolved, I think. And not necessarily for the better. It was the european influence on the game, me thinks.

[La Frescobaldi]

Tell me a team besides the Bulls that has not had an all star big player? You need bigs to win case closed. Even almighty Lebron needed Bosh in order to win it all...
1975 Warriors

[TheBigVeto]

[/B]

So basically a kobe fan?

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[TheBigVeto]

When it's all said and done Duncan will end up like Larry Bird. Legendary top 5 GOAT but disrespected by retards because they never played for the Lakers and they were not flashy.

[Money 23]

When it's all said and done Duncan will end up like Larry Bird. Legendary top 5 GOAT but disrespected by retards because they never played for the Lakers and they were not flashy.
Bird was very flashy ... WTF are you talking about?

And he was a wing player, and was better than Duncan.

[tpols]

Tpols, in case you think that it's because of Parker and Manu that they're winning - it's not.

Parker - 12.7 pts on 39% FG - 6 of 7 games played
Manu - 8.8 pts on 40% FG - 5 games
It's not about Parker or Manu.. It's about their team executing and moving the ball around and having every player mentally locked in. People always want to bring up the superstar argument but the spurs are an example of a real team.

[KyrieTheFuture]

The Spurs are successful because of their coach and gm not because of Tim D (but he's still top 10 all time)

[Psileas]

It's been SIX games. He has averaged 13/9 and 15/9 the past two years. He is no longer even close to an elite player and his teams are still winning the same amount of games.

You know what's funny? That according to the logic of equating non impressive stats to non greatness, the Spurs had hardly anyone playing anywhere near an elite level, and yet they went 50-16. Tony Parker was the only one that had a case, at 18/8. Duncan was at 15/9 (you left out 28 mpg), Manu at 13/3/4 and everyone else was even lower. A bunch of players who produced mediocre stats won the equivalent of 62 games in a normal season. So, there must be something misleading here, and I'm willing to bet it includes Duncan more than any other of his teammates.

[TheBigVeto]

Bird was very flashy ... WTF are you talking about?

And he was a wing player, and was better than Duncan.

No he wasn't flashy. Flashy means wing players who like to dunk.

[Money 23]

No he wasn't flashy. Flashy means wing players who like to dunk.
No ... flashy takes various shapes and forms.

Deciding to play an ENITRE game left handed is MAJOR SWAG / FLASHY points.

Throwing all kinds of no look / touch passes is FLASHY

Calling out game winners to opponents before hitting them is brash and flashy

[Micku]

Honestly, I'm tired of this myth being perpetuated.

Yes, obviously big guys make the game easier ... particularly defense. But people forget that guards and wings, who don't need the ball delivered to them, and aren't un-reliable options in the clutch, can take over games and make others better on offense ... same ways big guys usually amplify less than stellar defenders abilities on defense.

And that isn't to say guards and wings can't be ridiculously influential with elite defense, either and anchor a team's abilities. See: Jordan, young Kobe, Pippen, current LeBron, Gary Payton, Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars

Seriously, I take these five guys over ANY center. Including the likes of Chamberlain, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem.

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Bird
4) Magic
5) Kobe

And I'm dead serious. Kareem won all his rings with elite perimeter help. As did Shaq, and so did Duncan. Only without truly elite wing / guard play was Hakeem, but the back court they had was still very good.

Those five players I've mentioned are easily the most skilled players I've ever seen. They influenced teammates on offense and defense. They're also winners. In many cases winning more rings than most big men, and sustained longevity given their skill set. If it wasn't for Bird's back, and Magic's dirty dick ... I'm sure they would've hung around even longer.

Anyone else agree? Dispute?

Disagree.

Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem (didn't watch Wilt play) all took over in the 4th quarter before. I think ppl have a weird belief that the Lakers took Shaq out in the 4th. They didn't take him out as often as you think. I think Shaq got a bunch of points from FTs in the 4th. And Kareem hit game winners before. Hakeen is a center-guard. Duncan hit a couple of game winners and took over too.

And I think it's the opposite when you said "who don't need the ball delivered to them". While everyone needs the ball to score, I think centers are more responsible for more things than perimeter players. They would set screens, get rebounds, change shots when players drive to the rim, block shots, and box out to get rebounds. They have the most important job when they don't have the ball and could cause a mismatch.

I think a great point guard/forwards would run the offense better on than a big guy, but that's the point guard/forward job. However, a great center could cause open shots. Kareem did with the Lakers, Shaq did it with Lakers, and Hakeem for the Rockets.

And I find it a bit funny while you mention that centers need perimeter help, you didn't mention or realize that perimeter players had and need big/centers help too. Every perimeter player that you mentioned had an elite/all star big when they won the championship with the exception of Jordan. It goes both ways.

Magic won with Kareem in the line up. He never won without him. Oscar also never won without Kareem, even his prime. Kobe won with Shaq and later with Pau Gasol. Bob Cousy and John Havlicek won with Bill Russell. Russell was their most important and best player. Bird had Parish, Mchale, and Walton, one of the greatest frontline in NBA history. LeBron had Bosh who was probably the best PF in the east.

Jordan is actually the only exception somewhat. However, he needed somebody to get the rebounds and defend. That was Horace Grant job. In his second threepeat, it was Rodman. They were important. It goes both ways though.

Duncan did it without an elite perimeter player a couple of times. Hakeem did it once.

---

I think it is more opinionated on who is the most important player. Like would you Magic or Kareem? Bird (even though he can play PF) or Russell? Jordan or Wilt? The only thing we really have to go by are win records when they are on the team. Bird, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem and Magic all had great impacts when the first started with their team.

Bird did a 180 with the Celtics. Turning a 29 win team to a 61 win team.

Russell won as soon as he came into the league.

Magic won as soon as he came into the league, though Kareem was their best player.

Kareem also turned the Bucks around when he came in.

Hakeem did something similar to the Rockets. Went to the finals on his second year.

[Money 23]

Jordan is actually the only exception somewhat. However, he needed somebody to get the rebounds and defend. That was Horace Grant job. In his second threepeat, it was Rodman. They were important. It goes both ways though.

Duncan did it without an elite perimeter player a couple of times. Hakeem did it once.
Wait, Jordan is "somewhat" an exception because he had functioning starters at their positions who defended and rebounded?

Yet Duncan w/ Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili means nadda?

Hakeem with Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell? They didn't do their jobs as well?

[KOBE143]

Big men are overrated..

I'll take Mike, Magic and Kobe over any big men..

Aside from Bill Russell Weak era those players has more rings than any big men in the top ten.. Fact

[Micku]

Wait, Jordan is "somewhat" an exception because he had functioning starters at their positions who defended and rebounded?

Yet Duncan w/ Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili means nadda?

Hakeem with Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell? They didn't do their jobs as well?

Duncan didn't have Tony Parker and Ginobili in 1999. And in 2003, they weren't great or as good in 2005. They were not as important or as good as Horace Grant and Rodman with the Bulls run.

And Hakeem role players were good for him. I doubt either of them measure up incomparison of Grant and Rodman tho.

[Odinn]

I agree:

- Bigs can't take over games like guards/SF's

- Bigs generally become less reliable in close games
I'm not gonna write long. You should only see this;

Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3

[Yung D-Will]

How many back to back rings did Duncan win?

Oh yea, that's right. The scavnger winner. Everytime a dynasty was on it's heels and decline, Tim Duncan's Spurs picked up a ring in the off year said team wasn't clicking.

The San Antonio Vultures. Getting fed, and eating when everything is already dead. Never the hunter.

The true test of a REAL champion is defending. That's when things get hard. Kobe led his squad to back to back, Tim Duncan? Not so much. Don't be mad.

WTF IS THIS SHIT :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[The Mamba]

I agree:

- Jordan is/was more dominant than any big

- Kobe and Lebron are just as good as any big since Shaq

- Bigs can't take over games like guards/SF's

- Bigs generally become less reliable in close games

- It's true that bigs have more defensive impact, but guards have more offensive impact, so it evens out
Thank you ... someone who can evaluate and not just buy HYPE.

If we're talking elite wingman v.s. elite big, I'm taking the elite wingman.

[lilgodfather1]

I take a big man over any wing if the talent is simple. Shaq over Jordan easily. Doesn't mean wing players aren't important. PG's are the most overrated.

[Money 23]

Shaq over Jordan easily.
:facepalm

The insidious MJ hate from lilgodfather1 continues.

Apparently it was PJ who dragged MJ to rings, too.

Shaq isn't even as dominant as Jordan. He doesn't have the durability, influence on both ends of the court, crunch time ability, or the work ethic.

That's why he only has one scoring title, never averaged over 30 ppg, only has 4 rings (1 as sidekick) ... fat, lazy, and not durable. Career underachiever.

[RRR3]

:facepalm

The insidious MJ hate from lilgodfather1 continues.

Apparently it was PJ who dragged MJ to rings, too.

Shaq isn't even as dominant as Jordan. He doesn't have the durability, influence on both ends of the court, crunch time ability, or the work ethic.

That's why he only has one scoring title, never averaged over 30 ppg, only has 4 rings (1 as sidekick) ... fat, lazy, and not durable. Career underachiever.
Swoosh, Shaq has two scoring titles BTW.

[Money 23]

Swoosh, Shaq has two scoring titles BTW.
Forgot the '95 season ...

Always think D-Rob won the scoring title that year, I confuse it for '94.

Too much ball in the memory bank.

Did you know Shaq only played a full 82 game season 3 times? And that's me counting his 79 games played season. Because he's a lazy, fat ass ...

[rmt]

The Spurs are successful because of their coach and gm not because of Tim D (but he's still top 10 all time)

Even Pop says that the reason why the Spurs are successful is because of Duncan and Robinson who were no-brainer #1s in the draft.

[TheBigVeto]

[QUOTE=rmt]Even Pop says that the reason why the Spurs are successful is because of Duncan and Robinson who were no-brainer #1s in the draft.

[Young X]

I'm not gonna write long. You should only see this;

Most Points Per 4th Quarter
NBA Finals Past 20 Seasons
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3
I knew someone was going to post this, I didn't mean all bigs become less reliable in close games, but guards generally are more reliable in close games (with some exceptions) because of their ball handling, playmaking, FT shooting advantage over bigs.