D Antoni: One of the least efficient plays in basketball is just the straight post-up

[Godzuki]

good interview, i'm hyped to see showtime Lakers and not their boring halfcourt shit. Can't wait to see them when Nash gets back :pimp:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/21000776/dantoni-wins-over-media-but-dwight-howard-matters-most


EL SEGUNDO, Calif. -- The Lakers made the coaching choice that they knew would lose the press conference, lose in the court of public opinion, but work out for the best on the only court that matters.

Then, something strange and wonderful happened. From the sights and sounds of this first day of the Mike D'Antoni era in Los Angeles, it turned out that the Lakers chose the coach who managed to win the press conference, too.

Nobody expected that. The crowd of media at the team's practice facility, like nothing D'Antoni had seen in four years in New York, was something you'd expect for the triumphant return of Phil Jackson. Seriously, this crowd was for D'Antoni? A man who's never been to the Finals (much less won an NBA title) and whose acumen, style, philosophy, defects, playoff failures and demise in New York have been dissected for five days since the stunning decision of his hiring was announced?

Then D'Antoni, whose arrival on the West Coast was delayed while he recovered from knee replacement surgery that had him walking with a crutch at his first practice with the Lakers, started talking. And the more he talked, the better this hiring sounded. The more he explained what he believes in and how the talent-rich Lakers can thrive under his free-wheeling, player-driven style like no other team he's coached, the more his critics presumably slumped in their chairs.

"We're built to win this year," D'Antoni said Thursday. "This is not a project. We have a window and we're going to try and get through it."

He was direct. He was blunt. He was funny. He didn't try to cover the blemishes on his resume with white-out or canned excuses. He didn't try to come off as the smartest guy in the room, whose X's-and-O's brilliance would outsmart the rest of the coaching profession all the way to the top of the championship mountain in June.

For those who didn't know -- or, for those in New York who never saw this relaxed, forthright, engaging D'Antoni because he was cloaked in the dark paranoia of Madison Square Garden -- get used to it. If D'Antoni's debut on the court is anything close to as entertaining and informative as his debut in front of a microphone, then behold the return of the Showtime era in L.A.

"I love basketball," D'Antoni said. "I don't do anything else. I can't do anything else. I'm 61 years old, putting on tennis shoes and going to work? Are you kidding me? What's there not to like?"

As D'Antoni puts in the bare bones of his offensive system for Friday's game against Phoenix and then for his eventual debut on the sideline Sunday against Houston, understand this: Rhythm, trust, timing and everything else that comes with the D'Antoni way are not going to come overnight. And more importantly, this: The two most important pieces for making this a success are 1) Steve Nash, the point guard who's made a Hall of Fame career out of running D'Antoni's system; and 2) Dwight Howard, the dominant, athletic center in his prime that D'Antoni's never had before.

It sounds like Nash's return may coincide with D'Antoni's anticipated first game Sunday. Howard, playing at about 75-80 percent effectiveness as he recovers from back surgery, is going to need weeks -- maybe even a couple of months -- to get all the way back.

Nash, if he can get healthy and stay that way at 38, will use the freedom D'Antoni gives his point guards to set the RPMs just right and get everybody involved. But the overwhelming key to whether the Lakers can win this way -- now, and in the future -- is Howard. What Howard can do defensively for D'Antoni -- "put the 'D' back in my name," as D'Antoni said Thursday --- and what D'Antoni can do for Howard on the other end is everything.

"I know that the point guard is the one running the ship, but I told Dwight today he can be in every play," D'Antoni said. "We don't call plays. So he can run down and pick the ball and he's rolling to the basket. One of the least efficient plays in basketball is just the straight post-up. It's just not efficient. ... His touches should increase, his ability to get to the rim should increase and it should be a lot easier for Dwight."

Howard's eyes seemed to widen, almost in disbelief, when he revealed Thursday that D'Antoni told the Lakers they "should be scoring 110 points a game or something like that," Howard said. The big fella should be a big part of it --- "The big man should eat," Howard said -- because he's never become a straight post-up player in the traditional sense to begin with. But he also understands that his unexpected marriage to D'Antoni and his offensive system really starts at the end of the floor Howard has dominated as the three-time defensive player of the year.

Four times in a five-minute post-practice interview, Howard emphasized the importance of "getting stops." Nash will be Nash and Kobe will be Kobe, but this whole plan begins and ends with Dwight putting the "D" back in D'Antoni and the coach putting the dominance back in Dwight.

"I expect Dwight Howard -- as soon as he gets healthy, because he's not healthy right now -- to be unstoppable," D'Antoni said. "And I don't care what they do, they're not stopping him."

For the confused, uninitiated, or those who've bought the silly notion that D'Antoni can't win in the playoffs with a style built strictly around bringing out his players' talent, let me allow him to sum it up for you on every conceivable level:

• On how Bryant will fit in the offense: "I don't like to call a lot of plays. I like a flow. Offense should flow, and the ball should find energy and the ball should find our best guys. ... I hate when guys say, 'I didn't get my touches.' That doesn't make any sense. Everybody gets touches. That ball should go around. If a team is guarding these two guys and leaving these three guys open, these three guys are gonna score. If Kobe's being double-teamed, then we'll bust 'em someplace else." I'll simplify this even more: This is called playing basketball the right way.

• On beating teams with pace and shrinking the margin for error: "If you've got the best team, why wouldn't you play the most possessions that you can play defensively and offensively? Any time the possessions are cut down, then a bad call, a missed shot, you've got a chance to lose. But if we keep the possessions up here, to me we've got a lot better chance to win when we're playing a lot of reps."

• When asked, basically, so why have you never been to the Finals?: "Freakin' San Antonio, you'll have to criticize them. They were better than us."

• On what sets certain coaches apart in the NBA: "Players. ... In the Olympics, I think they do a good thing. They give the gold medal to the players. Coaches don't get gold medals. I think we have guys who can get rings, and they're the ones who are going to get 'em. ... You're not going to outcoach other coaches. Everybody's too prepared. Everybody works too hard to think that I'm going to sit there and figure out something that they haven't figured out. You just don't do that. Players have to eventually be accountable and they have to be the ones to go win the game for you."

• On getting more out of the Lakers' disappointing bench, which by the way includes Chris Duhon, who played the best basketball of his career under D'Antoni, and Steve Blake, who D'Antoni has been trying to acquire for a decade: "Jodie Meeks for example, I told him today: The only time he needs to shoot is when he touches the ball. Other than that, don't shoot." In other words, D'Antoni isn't so stubborn and full of himself to force players to do things they can't do. Just let them do what they can.

• On his style of making it about the players and not so much about the coach, an anathema to the control-freak coaching culture in the NBA: "Well, the advantage is, if you've got good players, it works. If you've got bad players, it doesn't work. And that would be anywhere."

And on and on and on. I think you get the picture. D'Antoni with the Lakers is going to be different, and it's going to be fun. It's going to be Showtime, of sorts.

But for it to be a success? That would require Nash to get his giddy-up on and do at 38 what he did for D'Antoni in his prime. And most of all, it'll require a gradual, mutually beneficial bond to form between D'Antoni and Howard. They have to be good for each other for this to work. And it has to work for them to stay together.

Bryant and his old coach, Jackson, were the focal point of the Lakers for so long. And Kobe would've been Kobe whether the Lakers had hired Jackson, D'Antoni or Kobe himself to coach this team. But the decision to go with D'Antoni finally became clear Thursday afternoon when you realized that it was made not only for the goal of winning now, but with the bet that D'Antoni and Howard would be good together in the future.

Players like Bryant come along once in a generation, if you're lucky. So when it's over, when he finally walks away with however many championships he has, don't hold your breath for another one to come along. The Lakers aren't.

If Howard and D'Antoni work, it's a much safer bet for the Lakers to find a point guard to run D'Antoni's offense than it would be to wait for another top-five player of all time to come along. So this is the Lakers doubling down on D'Antoni -- hoping that he and Nash can squeeze Howard's massive body through this tight championship window, deliver Bryant's sixth title and leave the blueprint in place for someone else to do it again down the road.

If it works -- if any part of it works -- the Lakers will wind up winning a lot more than a press conference.

[Haymaker]

Used car salesman.

[rodman91]

Nash:
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/131952_o.gif

[Chrono90]

Somewhere in me, i feel like this run and gun/pick and roll system is not going to make Kobe happy. If it works, let's see how much Kobe is willing to sacrifice. And if it doesn't work, let's see how much D'antoni is willing to let Kobe do his thing.

[Chrono90]

Post up game is not effective when you have Amare. But with Dwight and Gasol and Kobe, it's pretty weird saying we're not going to post. He's not going to say when you have Shaq, don't post up because it's inefficient. When you have great post up players, you use them. One formula can't work for all situations.

Lakers team now- Nash is aging and slower than the past. Kobe is aging and slower than the past. Gasol/Dwight/Kobe are all post up players.

D'antoni- Instead of changing my system to fit the Lakers. Lakers player will change their ways to fit into my system.

Let's see how this goes. I have a bad feeling.

[Clutch]

Post up game is not effective when you have Amare. But with Dwight and Gasol and Kobe, it's pretty weird saying we're not going to post. He's not going to say when you have Shaq, don't post up because it's inefficient. When you have great post up players, you use them. One formula can't work for all situations.

Lakers team now- Nash is aging and slower than the past. Kobe is aging and slower than the past. Gasol/Dwight/Kobe are all post up players.

D'antoni- Instead of changing my system to fit the Lakers. Lakers player will change their ways to fit into my system.

Let's see how this goes. I have a bad feeling.
He did that with the Knicks too. Instead of adjusting to the team he made the Knicks players adjust to his system.
He tried to make Toney Douglas and Melo a point guard. :roll:

[Godzuki]

Post up game is not effective when you have Amare. But with Dwight and Gasol and Kobe, it's pretty weird saying we're not going to post. He's not going to say when you have Shaq, don't post up because it's inefficient. When you have great post up players, you use them. One formula can't work for all situations.

Lakers team now- Nash is aging and slower than the past. Kobe is aging and slower than the past. Gasol/Dwight/Kobe are all post up players.

D'antoni- Instead of changing my system to fit the Lakers. Lakers player will change their ways to fit into my system.

Let's see how this goes. I have a bad feeling.

dwight and Pau have been pretty bad in the post tho. Pau is a hot/cold short J waiting to happen, and Dwight has either been getting collapsed on picked or fouled, altho he's somehow made a lot of his ugly ass post shots.

[Droid101]

He did that with the Knicks too. Instead of adjusting to the team he made the Knicks players adjust to his system.
He tried to make Toney Douglas and Melo a point guard. :roll:
You are banned from posting in any more D'antoni threads. Your hate is irrational and getting annoying.

[Chrono90]

He did that with the Knicks too. Instead of adjusting to the team he made the Knicks players adjust to his system.
He tried to make Toney Douglas and Melo a point guard. :roll:

yea i'm expecting the worst and hoping for the best.

Why did lakers hire him again??? Did they even think it through? lol :facepalm

[Godzuki]

He did that with the Knicks too. Instead of adjusting to the team he made the Knicks players adjust to his system.
He tried to make Toney Douglas and Melo a point guard. :roll:


they did pretty well from what i remember early on without much talent. i just remember them hanging in their with some good teams and a lot of OT games running and gunning with no depth.

to me he just never had the personnel he needed in NY. Lin's handle and quickness sucked altho he had decent vision, but any 2 man defense on him and he's stopped and trapped. Amare and Melo were missing every shot they took. and don't get me started on Amare's switches where it wasn't really D Antoni's fault more than Amare's stupidity. i think he got a bad rap in NY personally but whatever.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Perhaps it's true.

But at the same time being able to post up influences the game much more than being able to roll. It's a halfcourt play, when the game slows down you still have to find a way to score.

[Clutch]

You are banned from posting in any more D'antoni threads. Your hate is irrational and getting annoying.
It's the truth. Toney Douglas was our starting point guard and D'Antoni expected him to play like Steve Nash. When he saw that he can't then he tried to make Melo his point guard.

If you don't believe me go to ESPN or some other basketball site and read some old articles. You'll surely see what I'm talking about.

[Godzuki]

yea i'm expecting the worst and hoping for the best.

Why did lakers hire him again??? Did they even think it through? lol :facepalm


Phil would've been a lot more similar to Mike Brown's Princeton than not. if you hired Phil then you should be asking why you got Nash since he'd be like a Derrick Fisher in the triangle.

[IGOTGAME]

Might as well trade Kobe and pau.

[Clutch]

Phil would've been a lot more similar to Mike Brown's Princeton than not. if you hired Phil then you should be asking why you got Nash since he'd be like a Derrick Fisher in the triangle.
If you play Princeton/Triangle offense - Nash not used the right way
If you play D'Antoni's offense - Kobe,Gasol and Dwight not used the right way

Pick your poison :lol

[Godzuki]

It's the truth. Toney Douglas was our starting point guard and D'Antoni expected him to play like Steve Nash. When he saw that he can't then he tried to make Melo his point guard.

If you don't believe me go to ESPN or some other basketball site and read some old articles. You'll surely see what I'm talking about.


wtf did you want him to do? incorporate the triangle or the princeton? thats his system....

[IGOTGAME]

wtf did you want him to do? incorporate the triangle or the princeton? thats his system....
You have to be able to maximize your teams strengths.

[Clutch]

wtf did you want him to do? incorporate the triangle or the princeton? thats his system....
Adjust his system to the players he had.

D'Antoni is an extremely stubborn coach. He would rather die than change something he believes into even if he doesn't have success with it.

[Chrono90]

dwight and Pau have been pretty bad in the post tho. Pau is a hot/cold short J waiting to happen, and Dwight has either been getting collapsed on picked or fouled, altho he's somehow made a lot of his ugly ass post shots.

That's true though. Gasol has been struggling but Kobe is still good and Dwight was decent before the surgery. I just hope D'Antoni doesn't completely forget the post play when you have those post players.

[DuMa]

http://ffauploads.com/fQjYZ5xH.gif

[Godzuki]

If you play Princeton/Triangle offense - Nash not used the right way
If you play D'Antoni's offense - Kobe,Gasol and Dwight not used the right way

Pick your poison :lol


how does that make sense? his system is pick n roll's which can be with any of those players, and running which should free every player up with more lanes every time down the court. this halfcourt crap where all the Lakers take are short J's because the middle is so crowded is whats dumb. or passing it around from the post living and dying by Gasol's hot/cold short J's and passing to Artest to shoot because he's always the open man. at least D Antoni will get the balls into the hands of his stars to win their matchups and have more lanes to get theirs.

i mean the Lakers are real lucky Kobe has been burying those deep J's with hands in his face this year. he should have a lot more open shots without playing against a constantly set defense.

and ideally they should have less TO's with less constant passing from every player in/around the post.

[swi7ch]

150 PPG here we come! :bowdown:

[Chrono90]

wtf did you want him to do? incorporate the triangle or the princeton? thats his system....

That's my point of wondering why did the Lakers get him the begin with...

He's a run and gun/ pick and roll/ play less D and more Offense team.
But, Lakers player on the other hand, is not those type of players.

Maybe they hate Phil Jackson that much to hire Mike just to diss Phil?

[rodman91]

Lakers is thinking about future. Howard is their future. Kobe & Gasol is past. Like Celtics is become Rondo's team instead of the original big three, they are counting on Howard right now.

[Godzuki]

That's my point of wondering why did the Lakers get him the begin with...

He's a run and gun/ pick and roll/ play less D and more Offense team.
But, Lakers player on the other hand, is not those type of players.

Maybe they hate Phil Jackson that much to hire Mike just to diss Phil?


personally i think Phil would've failed with this team, he would've been very similar to the Princeton in terms of their issues. even tho its hard to argue with his track record despite always having dominating talent, i think Phil is quite overrated mainly because people think he can win from his coaching in itself.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Lakers is thinking about future. Howard is their future. Kobe & Gasol is past. Like Celtics is become Rondo's team instead of the original big three, they are counting on Howard right now.

I don't think it's that.

The idea they're running with is that to get everyone the necessary touches you need a higher tempo.

[Chrono90]

Either way this is all good for business cause it's creating drama.

1) D'Antoni gets to give a payback to the Knicks on Christmas. He must hate those players on that team for tanking and kicking him out. It's going to be a great game every time Knicks play Lakers.

2) Phil is going to come back and he's going to try to take out the Lakers for dissing him like this. Phil, with his resume and legacy, will not want to leave his career being swept in the playoffs. He's going to come back.

This is going to be fun.

[crisoner]

Won 5 titles with the boring post up game. What's your point?

[Darius]

I love slowly watching the Laker fans who hated on this move changing their tune as homer-vision kicks in.

[MightyWhitey]

Something no one mentioned thus far is that in a D'Antoni system there is no defense. One more time so everyone understands. In a D'Antoni system THERE IS NO DEFENSE!!!

The Lakers are done for. Dwight and Kobe are going to get rid of this coach. Mark my words. Dwight will never again win defensive player of the year now that pringles squirmed back into the NBA. I want Laker fans to know the absolute ridicule the Knicks went through for years because of D'Antoni and his failed system. You will go through this exact ridicule now.

[Droid101]

Something no one mentioned thus far is that in a D'Antoni system there is no defense.
D'Antoni teams averaged about 14th-15th in the league in defense during their good years (with of course far and away the #1 offense). And that's with Amar'e Stoudemire and Boris Diaw as your frontcourt.

Imagine Dwight and Pau instead?

Yeah, stop.

[IGOTGAME]

I love slowly watching the Laker fans who hated on this move changing their tune as homer-vision kicks in.
You have to eventually get over and hope your wrong, right?

I hate this move. I've begun to hate the Nash signing as well because it brought this on. But what is done is done. Lakers plan on milking the last 2 years out of Kobes body and then scrapping this team. They know they have no chance at a title.

[MightyWhitey]

D'Antoni teams averaged about 14th-15th in the league in defense during their good years (with of course far and away the #1 offense). And that's with Amar'e Stoudemire and Boris Diaw as your frontcourt.

Imagine Dwight and Pau instead?

Yeah, stop.

The Lakers cannot compete with teams like San Antonio and OKC in the West with D'Antoni. Everyone will wonder later on why it is the Lakers will fall off the defensive parameters of the NBA. Memphis will bully the sh!t out the Lakers now.

[rodman91]

They probably signed Nash to keep Howard in future. It was like saying "This is your team now, Kobe is goner soon, here we got Nash for you big guy.Sign with us!"

[Droid101]

The Lakers cannot compete with teams like San Antonio and OKC in the West with D'Antoni. Everyone will wonder later on why it is the Lakers will fall off the defensive parameters of the NBA. Memphis will bully the sh!t out the Lakers now.
San Antonio? That run-and-gun outfit that doesn't focus on defense?

SA: Off Rtg: 105.2 (8th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.8 (15th of 30)

Keep crying.

[SCdac]

"I don't like to call a lot of plays."

:roll:

That's going to work out awesome.

[MightyWhitey]

San Antonio? That run-and-gun outfit that doesn't focus on defense?

SA: Off Rtg: 105.2 (8th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.8 (15th of 30)

Keep crying.

There is no crying for me. The Knick organization did themselves and the NBA a favor by getting rid of Pringles. Now the Lakers bring him back :applause: Kuddos to the Lakers. First round exit guaranteed.

[Levity]

Why are people so upset that the Lakers are going to run pick and rolls?
1) the triangle was usually initiated with a pick and roll. if it wasnt there, then the ball was thrown into the post and the triangle picked up.
2) gasol is a great high pick n roll player as is dwight. Nash along with MD's offense will make them even better at that. Kobe is a basketball player. Throw him in any offense and he'll give you results
3) Dwight howards is the 3x defensive player of the year. COuld have been 4x if it wasnt for his back injury and disdain for orlando at the time. Yes, hes coming off back surgery, but i have no doubt he will still be a force on the defensive end come play off time.

Everyone's really nitpicking at small details and not looking at the big picture.

[Droid101]

There is no crying for me. The Knick organization did themselves and the NBA a favor by getting rid of Pringles. Now the Lakers bring him back :applause: Kuddos to the Lakers. First round exit guaranteed.
Ah, true colors shine, another baseless D'Antoni hater because he somehow "Screwed up" the Knicks, as if the Knicks were going to do anything with their flawed roster the last two years.

Look, I'm glad that the Knicks filled their roster with vets who want to win this season. That's awesome. But they didn't have the roster to win the last two years, period.

[Whoah10115]

If you play Princeton/Triangle offense - Nash not used the right way
If you play D'Antoni's offense - Kobe,Gasol and Dwight not used the right way

Pick your poison :lol



D'Antoni offense, as described, is made for Dwight Howard. So I don't get what you're saying.


And any offense where there are a lot of possessions will give Kobe plenty of time with the ball. Kobe could lead the league in scoring in this offense.

[Godzuki]

Either way this is all good for business cause it's creating drama.

1) D'Antoni gets to give a payback to the Knicks on Christmas. He must hate those players on that team for tanking and kicking him out. It's going to be a great game every time Knicks play Lakers.

2) Phil is going to come back and he's going to try to take out the Lakers for dissing him like this. Phil, with his resume and legacy, will not want to leave his career being swept in the playoffs. He's going to come back.

This is going to be fun.

actually a lot of the Knicks players love D Antoni still, other than Melo at least.

[Godzuki]

Won 5 titles with the boring post up game. What's your point?


yeah with Shaq, and then a prime Pau with Bynum and less aged Kobe...

if you think the Lakers have looked good in halfcourt this year then by all means keep cheering for Phil.

[Godzuki]

Something no one mentioned thus far is that in a D'Antoni system there is no defense. One more time so everyone understands. In a D'Antoni system THERE IS NO DEFENSE!!!

The Lakers are done for. Dwight and Kobe are going to get rid of this coach. Mark my words. Dwight will never again win defensive player of the year now that pringles squirmed back into the NBA. I want Laker fans to know the absolute ridicule the Knicks went through for years because of D'Antoni and his failed system. You will go through this exact ridicule now.


what if you're wrong? what are most of you going to eat? i guess since the expectations are championship or bust, its likely D Antoni will fail but it is annoying how everyone thinks so much inside a box like nothing out of it can be successful :rolleyes:

PS D Antoni made a great point about San Antonio in the article. its just silly to me how people think his system can't win in this league when its been a top 5 team system consecutive years.

[MightyWhitey]

Ah, true colors shine, another baseless D'Antoni hater because he somehow "Screwed up" the Knicks, as if the Knicks were going to do anything with their flawed roster the last two years.

Look, I'm glad that the Knicks filled their roster with vets who want to win this season. That's awesome. But they didn't have the roster to win the last two years, period.

One of the main reasons why D'Antoni was heavily criticized by Charles Barkley was the 7 seconds or less rule and no defense. He will run Howards knees right to the surgeons office by the end of the season. Lakers may be better than the Knicks 2 seasons ago but they would have been better off with Sloan or Jackson.

[quick96]

Phil would've been a lot more similar to Mike Brown's Princeton than not. if you hired Phil then you should be asking why you got Nash since he'd be like a Derrick Fisher in the triangle.


If Nash wants to win a championship, he needs to sacrifice and play more like D. Fish. He needs to follow Kobe Bryant's lead and play as a sidekick. Kobe knows how to win....

Bottom line is you want to win a championship Nash needs to sacrifice his game.

Kobe = 5 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS & COUNTING
Nash = 0 ....

[Godzuki]

If Nash wants to win a championship, he needs to sacrifice and play more like D. Fish. He needs to follow Kobe Bryant's lead and play as a sidekick. Kobe knows how to win....

Bottom line is you want to win a championship Nash needs to sacrifice his game.

Kobe = 5 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS & COUNTING
Nash = 0 ....


kobe never singlehandedly led them to a championship tho, and he definitely couldn't now. i jsut can't stand the ring argument, like it automatically makes him and Phil guaranteed to win a ring. its just so flawed with no real support to the now.

[amfirst]

Run n gun works in regular season. But in the playoffs people will figure out all your moves so they have to learn to add the post up in the games espeically in 4th quarters. That's what destroys team when people have to double, it leave someone open.

[niko]

D'Antoni is not a bad coach. He is totally inflexible though. With the right roster he is fine. What killed me with the Knicks is he had the wrong roster and he just would not change anything he was doing at all. I can't imagine how unmotivating it must be for the players to be told to play in a style that is completely impossible for them to win in.

This roster fits him better so he'll be fine. If i was a laker fan my concern would be him running them into the ground. He plays guys way too many minutes, if they are old its a real problem.

[brandonislegend]

If Nash wants to win a championship, he needs to sacrifice and play more like D. Fish. He needs to follow Kobe Bryant's lead and play as a sidekick. Kobe knows how to win....

Bottom line is you want to win a championship Nash needs to sacrifice his game.

Kobe = 5 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS & COUNTING
Nash = 0 ....

Why not use a weapon you have instead of hiding a former 2 time MVP in the corner?

[Bodhi]

yeah with Shaq, and then a prime Pau with Bynum and less aged Kobe...

if you think the Lakers have looked good in halfcourt this year then by all means keep cheering for Phil.

When D'Antoni said straight post up, he didn't mean running the triangle though a passing big like Shaq or Pau

He meant when your play is to dump into into a big and they try and score. And guess what, the Lakers offense dropped off a cliff when they incorporated Bynum and tried to do that.

Look at the stats, the more time Bynum missed with injury, the better the offense played that year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/

[hawke812]

I got the lube ready and resting my arms in anticipation for today's game.

[TheFan]

and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... AKA Lakers main problem?

[DirtySanchez]

kobe never singlehandedly led them to a championship tho, and he definitely couldn't now. i jsut can't stand the ring argument, like it automatically makes him and Phil guaranteed to win a ring. its just so flawed with no real support to the now.

Jordan beat the Monstars all by himself though. The toons was garbage!!!

[Levity]

Jordan beat the Monstars all by himself though. The toons was garbage!!!

not entirely true. No Bill Murry = no win for the toonsquad. He was their x factor.

[Rekindled]

and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... AKA Lakers main problem?

what lakers are currently 8th in the league defensive efficiency.

[hawke812]

and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... AKA Lakers main problem?

Even though I was the biggest Mike Brown supporter, the Lakers main problem is gone. The defense has been good so far. Not sure what you are talking about:confusedshrug:

[Levity]

and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... AKA Lakers main problem?

a healthy dwight howard will help fix the lakers defensive problems.

[Carbine]

D'Antoni offense, as described, is made for Dwight Howard. So I don't get what you're saying.


And any offense where there are a lot of possessions will give Kobe plenty of time with the ball. Kobe could lead the league in scoring in this offense.

No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

Artest is not a good fit. Kobe is at his best from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

They are big. That's their advantage. They have two of the best low post players in the league. Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.

[ZenMaster]

No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

Artest is not a good fit. Kobe is at his best from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

They are big. That's their advantage. They have two of the best low post players in the league. Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.


Here's an excellent pickn'roll play the Lakers could run that would put everyone at their strengths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hPSpvdpnxUw#t=120s

There are plenty of pickn'roll options that doesn't require Pau to be a 3pt shooter, he's the best passing big man in the league.

[hawke812]

No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

Artest is not a good fit. Kobe is at his best from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

They are big. That's their advantage. They have two of the best low post players in the league. Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.

Looks like you know nothing about the game of basketball.

Carry on:lol

[Carbine]

That fits Pau better, but you need variation. You just can't do that all the time. Artest evokes no confidence in me that he can be the type of shooter or attacker of closeouts that you need in this offense either.

Kobe could fit in any offense beause he's just that good, but this role of catch and shoot or "flow" basketball doesn't fit him that well. His best offense is one that features him in post ups and iso's and coming off screens, which is pretty much the complete opposite of the offense he will be playing in.

Jamison isn't a good fit either, and he's their first perimeter guy off the bench.

[IGOTGAME]

That fits Pau better, but you need variation. You just can't do that all the time. Artest evokes no confidence in me that he can be the type of shooter or attacker of closeouts that you need in this offense either.

Kobe could fit in any offense beause he's just that good, but this role of catch and shoot or "flow" basketball doesn't fit him that well. His best offense is one that features him in post ups and iso's and coming off screens, which is pretty much the complete opposite of the offense he will be playing in.

Jamison isn't a good fit either, and he's their first perimeter guy off the bench.
I think this may be there way of getting rid of Kobe.

[Tking714]

Post up game is not effective when you have Amare. But with Dwight and Gasol and Kobe, it's pretty weird saying we're not going to post. He's not going to say when you have Shaq, don't post up because it's inefficient. When you have great post up players, you use them. One formula can't work for all situations.

Lakers team now- Nash is aging and slower than the past. Kobe is aging and slower than the past. Gasol/Dwight/Kobe are all post up players.

D'antoni- Instead of changing my system to fit the Lakers. Lakers player will change their ways to fit into my system.

Let's see how this goes. I have a bad feeling.

Gasol is a pick and pop/high post/face up big.
Dwight is a pick and roll/ defensive center
Kobe is an ISO swingman that has the ability to post, and will post regardless of what the play is or who he's facing or what coach says.

[Whoah10115]

No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

Artest is not a good fit. Kobe is at his best from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

They are big. That's their advantage. They have two of the best low post players in the league. Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.




Wow, I really disagree. Completely. Howard is a terrific pick n' roll player. He'd also get isolated more in the post.


The offense in Orlando was suited to Dwight, on the basis of their personnel. Howard may not be a great passer, but he's a willing passer and he's unselfish. It worked for those reasons.


He didn't have a true PG tho. And while Nelson was great for a while (and he did have Turkoglu, which helped a lot), he never had an elite player. Now he has Nash, plus Kobe is great on the pick n' roll.


He can't possibly get fewer touches, as the offense will maximize possessions. There's also a huge difference between LA and Orlando: Dwight is no longer the best scorer or best offensive player on his team. He's the 2nd best scorer and maybe even the 4th best offensive player (actually a stretch, as Gasol looks so bad right now). He's in a completely different place and he's also brand new. It's not the same situation. And that's before considering the cornerstone of this team is the guy who is the best scorer and who carries the burden of the team.


As far as fits...Artest is not an ideal fit, BUT...he's just about the worst player in the league. I haven't seen a guy get open nearly as often as he does, much less as open as he is...and he's not moving off the ball either. They leave him, and he still sucks. Plus, he tries to shoot off the dribble and I can't begin to believe what I see when he does. In D'Antoni's offense, he's less likely to get those chances. Fewer touches for Artest = greater happiness around the world.


And how Jamison, as a hard-working tweener with an all-around offensive game, still good athleticism, willingness to run and ability to shoot is not a good fit...he's a perfect fit.


The Lakers were going the wrong way even when Bynum was playing better. Now they have Nash and it makes no sense to go the way you're suggesting. The only issue for the Lakers is how they include Gasol in all this. But as long as Gasol is actually involved and made to feel involved, he's incredibly versatile. He's also the only sensible trade piece if they decide they need something else.

[Levity]

Gasol is a pick and pop/high post/face up big.
Dwight is a pick and roll/ defensive center
Kobe is an ISO swingman that has the ability to post, and will post regardless of what the play is or who he's facing or what coach says.

gasol is a GREAT low post scorer. We have been alluded to thinking otherwise ever since bynum took a huge step forward last season forcing gasol to play further and further away from the basket

[Tking714]

gasol is a GREAT low post scorer. We have been alluded to thinking otherwise ever since bynum took a huge step forward last season forcing gasol to play further and further away from the basket

Yeah he's great. But his strength is the High post, and the baseline faceup. He can definitely get into the low post better from these positions. But he's not a back-to-the-basket/backdown big per se.

Who knows what's what though with all these 6'7" centers and powerforwards in the league though.

[Droid101]

Here's an excellent pickn'roll play the Lakers could run that would put everyone at their strengths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hPSpvdpnxUw#t=120s

There are plenty of pickn'roll options that doesn't require Pau to be a 3pt shooter, he's the best passing big man in the league.
Oh god. I got chills. Dwight sets the screen, Pau or Kobe as the mid guy, Dwight rolls....

[RaininTwos]

I seriously can't wait until the Knicks start losing so that posters like clutch can stfu

[Carbine]

Wow, I really disagree. Completely. Howard is a terrific pick n' roll player. He'd also get isolated more in the post.


The offense in Orlando was suited to Dwight, on the basis of their personnel. Howard may not be a great passer, but he's a willing passer and he's unselfish. It worked for those reasons.


He didn't have a true PG tho. And while Nelson was great for a while (and he did have Turkoglu, which helped a lot), he never had an elite player. Now he has Nash, plus Kobe is great on the pick n' roll.


He can't possibly get fewer touches, as the offense will maximize possessions. There's also a huge difference between LA and Orlando: Dwight is no longer the best scorer or best offensive player on his team. He's the 2nd best scorer and maybe even the 4th best offensive player (actually a stretch, as Gasol looks so bad right now). He's in a completely different place and he's also brand new. It's not the same situation. And that's before considering the cornerstone of this team is the guy who is the best scorer and who carries the burden of the team.


As far as fits...Artest is not an ideal fit, BUT...he's just about the worst player in the league. I haven't seen a guy get open nearly as often as he does, much less as open as he is...and he's not moving off the ball either. They leave him, and he still sucks. Plus, he tries to shoot off the dribble and I can't begin to believe what I see when he does. In D'Antoni's offense, he's less likely to get those chances. Fewer touches for Artest = greater happiness around the world.


And how Jamison, as a hard-working tweener with an all-around offensive game, still good athleticism, willingness to run and ability to shoot is not a good fit...he's a perfect fit.


The Lakers were going the wrong way even when Bynum was playing better. Now they have Nash and it makes no sense to go the way you're suggesting. The only issue for the Lakers is how they include Gasol in all this. But as long as Gasol is actually involved and made to feel involved, he's incredibly versatile. He's also the only sensible trade piece if they decide they need something else.

Good news - one of us will be right.

Bad news - one of us will be wrong.

[TheFan]

what lakers are currently 8th in the league defensive efficiency.


Even though I was the biggest Mike Brown supporter, the Lakers main problem is gone. The defense has been good so far. Not sure what you are talking about:confusedshrug:

are you sure?
Offense seemed alright, Lakers offense always has been effective... they can't guard athletic guards... watch the game against the Mavs and the game against Clippers.

[SHAQisGOAT]

:facepalm

Maybe if you don't have players that can work in the post but with dudes like Kobe, Pau and Howard it is efficient.

Not saying playing the pick n roll game with passers like Nash and players like Pau or Horward is not great but if you don't let them post up you're just dumb, especially in this league.

[Walker]

Everyone is focused on the wrong things here.

The offense will work, really well.

The no defense thing is a pure myth.

What will kill them is D'Antoni's total lack of rotation. The starters will be getting 38mpg+ which is gonna kill these older bodies.

[Bodhi]

are you sure?
Offense seemed alright, Lakers offense always has been effective... they can't guard athletic guards... watch the game against the Mavs and the game against Clippers.

Going by off/def rating, Lakers are 9th on offense and 12th on defense

Quick guards have killed us since 09, but if anyone in the league can can cover our backcourt it's a healthy Dwight.

And Nash/D'Antoni will improve the offense. There's no question about that.

And the thing is, short of a season ending injury, the Lakers couldn't have had a worse start to the season and every advanced stat shows that the Lakers are a top 5-10 team. Writing them off now would be like writing off the 9-7 Heat

[wakencdukest]

If you play Princeton/Triangle offense - Nash not used the right way
If you play D'Antoni's offense - Kobe,Gasol and Dwight not used the right way

Pick your poison :lol


Nash doesn't really work in the Princeton/triangle, But Kobe Gasol and Dwight are not strictly post up players. They can all play face up games and fit in to D'antoni's offense. If we were talking Bynum, what you said would make perfect sense, because he doesn't have the versatility or mobility of Howard or Gasol. They should be able to fit in fine, I'm sure there will be times when they have to resort to their size inside to exploit smaller teams in the post, thus giving them opportunities to use their post up skills once in a while.

[Whoah10115]

Yeah he's great. But his strength is the High post, and the baseline faceup. He can definitely get into the low post better from these positions. But he's not a back-to-the-basket/backdown big per se.




I don't really agree. His game is all-around. Was McHale a back-down player? He got the ball in the post, established position, and then his up-and-unders and fakes all came into play. But he wasn't Ewing or Barkley backing guys down. Gasol is much the same, tho he has a more all-around game, able to get in the high post and facilitate.



Good news - one of us will be right.

Bad news - one of us will be wrong.


:cheers: