This is the 332nd consecutive month with an above-average temperature.

[KevinNYC]

If you

[flipogb]

there were 90+ degree days towards the end of October here in California, I don't remember that happening in the 15 yrs ive lived here. I know the weather is warmer here but gettng close to 100 in October can't be normal

[heyhey]

http://metofficenews.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ranked_combined.png

8 of the warmest years in records have been from the past decade

[gigantes]

i'm just hoping we can steal a couple 'cool' years from the statistical pool and limp through a few more years. i'd like to get a couple more things done in life before the excrement hits the ventilator. :P

this area is notorious for miserable winters, but last winter was incredibly mild. eerily so, really.

[kNicKz]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22800031.jpg

[JtotheIzzo]

Don't you know anything? heat melting ice is just a 'theory'!

Jeez!

[InspiredLebowski]

Palin/Putin 2016

[KevinNYC]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22800031.jpg


Um, you're wrong.

Because
http://media-cache0.pinterest.com/upload/257831147386765657_iwSfQk72_c.jpg

[Dave3]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22800031.jpg
An astronomy proff explained that it's actually correlated with sun spots which are cyclical. There's no denying though that it has been aggravated (if at least a little bit) by our activities. There are tons of PhD's on either sides of the coin, and unfortunately many of them are on their respective sides for political reasons.

As for how it actually is, there are a bunch of articles for both sides, but neither side is clear cut. Both sides admit that there is global climate change, but obviously disagree on the causes etc.

[Jakeh008]

http://www.climate4you.com/images/GISP2%20TemperatureSince10700%20BP%20with%20CO2%20 from%20EPICA%20DomeC.gif

[Crystallas]

An astronomy proff explained that it's actually correlated with sun spots which are cyclical. There's no denying though that it has been aggravated (if at least a little bit) by our activities. There are tons of PhD's on either sides of the coin, and unfortunately many of them are on their respective sides for political reasons.

As for how it actually is, there are a bunch of articles for both sides, but neither side is clear cut. Both sides admit that there is global climate change, but obviously disagree on the causes etc.

:applause:

Nice to see a rational response for once, and not another rehash from Fox News or NY Times.

[Chapallaz]

Just enjoy your ****ing interglacials people.

[Kblaze8855]

the world has been freezing cold and burning hot well before we got here. nothing we have seen in our brief time of measuring is anything close to world record anything. If humans had records back to the dawn of our existence I bet every heat record would have been broken long ago without our input.

nothing we are likely to be able to do to could cause an extended ice age. Nor could we make the world so sunny and humid that plant growth went so far that they generate enough oxygen to support 9 foot millipedes and giant spiders.


we really arent as significant as I think people want to believe.

[LJJ]

The Earth's temperatures has fluctuated before.

Because of this, I'm certain that humans burning up all the natural resources into the atmosphere has a negligible effect. Sending millions of times more aggravating chemicals up into the atmosphere than what occurs naturally, the same atmosphere which has an utterly vital role in maintaining the Earthly status quo, I'm sure this all has a negligible effect.

100% sure. I base this on my shocking lack of common sense.

[Kblaze8855]

keep panicking doomsayers. The"its not that big a deal" side is undefeated and will be for quite some time.

[Brunch@Five]

keep panicking doomsayers. The"its not that big a deal" side is undefeated and will be for quite some time.

the parts of the world that contribute most to pollution and emissions are on the better end of consequences. But tell that "it's not that big a deal" to people in developing countries of different ecological zones.

Or just think about severe droughts in the American heartland and hurricanes at the atlantic coast. Phenomena that are likely to occur more often due to climate change.

[Kblaze8855]

Even if they are its an issue of moving the extreme weather not creating something new. Whole lot of panic about where exactly the comfortable parts of the world will be in 1800 years. Time and money wasted trying to stop a ship too big to turn around.

If rather see the millions spent on this research and publicity used to help the people we have. talk to me about an odd weathered future when malaria isnt killing millions right now. Fighting whatever you blame for climate change is a losing battle.

There are people we can actually help now

[shaq2000]

Snowboarding is my favorite sport. I wait all year. Last year sucked. This is unacceptable to me.

[AlphaWolf24]

The weather now is much better then it was in the 80's....

all positive's IMO.

[Nick Young]

WHAT? The Earth's climate is changing! NO FREAKING WAY! Surely this has never happened before!
http://www.climate4you.com/images/VostokTemp0-420000%20BP.gif

[DeuceWallaces]

It's not just the peak it's the rate. Stop being such an idiot.

[gigantes]

well... according to a lot of replies in this thread you'd think the OP had said "332 months in a row have been warmer than average because of human activities." AFAIK he didn't.

but whether it's man-made or natural, we still got a growing problem on our hands, no? :confusedshrug:

[LA Lakers]

Love how global warming deniars try to say there are two sides to the debate. Uh, not according to scientists, the dudes that actually study the issue. Yeah, polar ice caps are melting and polar bears learning how to swim. Totally normal. Right...

[LA Lakers]

Tell peeps on the east coast going through Sandy that this is all part of the plan...

[Nick Young]

Love how global warming deniars try to say there are two sides to the debate. Uh, not according to scientists, the dudes that actually study the issue. Yeah, polar ice caps are melting and polar bears learning how to swim. Totally normal. Right...
Did you know that the earth has gone through several hundred warming and cooling periods in it's 4.6 billion year old history?:confusedshrug:

Did you not know that millions of species have gone extinct in the past due to their inability to deal with the natural climate change?:confusedshrug:

[LA Lakers]

Cool man, how much was a gallon of gasoline 4.6 billion years ago? Shits getting expensive nowadays.

[Dave3]

Love how global warming deniars try to say there are two sides to the debate. Uh, not according to scientists, the dudes that actually study the issue. Yeah, polar ice caps are melting and polar bears learning how to swim. Totally normal. Right...
No one on either side is denying the occurrence. The debate lies in the cause.

[LA Lakers]

I hope polar bears are great swimmers since there isnt much land left for them. And as far as our species surviving, something like 98% of the species on this planet are extinct. Dont see what would make us an exception. And hey, nothing like speeding up the extinction process by destroying the planet we live on!

[gigantes]

I hope polar bears are great swimmers since there isnt much land left for them. And as far as our species surviving, something like 98% of the species on this planet are extinct. Dont see what would make us an exception. And hey, nothing like speeding up the extinction process by destroying the planet we live on!
in fact we're already in the middle of one of the greatest extinction periods in earth's history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

[KevinNYC]

well... according to a lot of replies in this thread you'd think the OP had said "332 months in a row have been warmer than average because of human activities." AFAIK he didn't.


I do believe we are causing increased climate change. As do something like 97% of climate scientists.

[Nick Young]

I do believe we are causing increased climate change. As do something like 97% of climate scientists.
Where'd you hear this bullshit statistic? Your ass?

[kNicKz]

Tell peeps on the east coast going through Sandy that this is all part of the plan...

I was hit by Hurricane Sandy. Hurricanes were happening before my bloodline, and will continue to happen.

[AlphaWolf24]

I do believe we are causing increased climate change. As do something like 97% of climate scientists.


Lies...



- No scientist worth a salt has ever said "Climate change" is from Humans "green house gases"


- The whole " Global Warming" now changed to " Climate change" ( because no one can prove that the Earth is Warmer now then it was 100 years ago) is so full of political agenda and Greed I'm not sure how anyone would take any side as Truthful

- Fact is the Earth may or may not be a little bit warmer....but it has gone through many climate changes .....with or without Humans.

not sure why we have to have the Bureaucratic furbor not seen since Prohibition or the Ronald Raygun Nuclear 80's....

- Just another agenda filled doomsday scheme....lets all get in Bunkers...this time instead of a Nuke...it's a Giant Tidal wave from a melting Iceburg:rolleyes:

[Kblaze8855]

Why would humans be the exception when things go extinct? Is that a serious question? Cavemen survived greater climate change than humanity has the ability to cause. And they did it with sticks and stones. Fear mongering isn't only bad when republicans do it.....

[gigantes]

I do believe we are causing increased climate change. As do something like 97% of climate scientists.
i'm well aware of both facts, but at some point don't you have to give some form of credit to people who picked up on that agenda from the first post?

to me this is part of why we keep failing-- we keep underestimating the decision-making processes of our fellow man, thinking that their thoughts are informed by the same stimuli that inform our own. i.e., our square block keeps getting more exactingly-refined and perfected with time, yet we somehow keep trying to jam it in to the same triangular hole time and time again. why is that?

[shlver]

I do believe we are causing increased climate change. As do something like 97% of climate scientists.
All respectable scientists acknowledge that CO2 emissions have a net positive effect on flux, what is blown out of proportion by the media and card stacking environmentalists is the question is the forcing significant, and its not by itself. What is not understood and still open for study are the feedback loops and the earth's response to said increased carbon emissions.

[DeuceWallaces]

All respectable scientists acknowledge that CO2 emissions have a net positive effect on flux, what is blown out of proportion by the media and card stacking environmentalists is the question is the forcing significant, and its not by itself. What is not understood and still open for study are the feedback loops and the earth's response to said increased carbon emissions.

Under what authority can you say "it's not by itself"?

[Michael_Wilbon]

If you don't think that humans are a direct result to global warming you're a ****ing idiot. Seriously. Read a god damn book, you god damn morons.

[Legend of Josh]

It's been "below" average here in the state of North Carolina.

[Legend of Josh]

If you don't think that humans are a direct result to global warming you're a ****ing idiot. Seriously. Read a god damn book, you god damn morons.

Balla_Status anyone?

:oldlol:

It's not even about reading a book ... in fact, that statement is rather moronic in itself. It's much more about just simply experiencing life in the past three decades, especially the last one.

[Legend of Josh]

All respectable scientists acknowledge that CO2 emissions have a net positive effect on flux, what is blown out of proportion by the media and card stacking environmentalists is the question is the forcing significant, and its not by itself. What is not understood and still open for study are the feedback loops and the earth's response to said increased carbon emissions.

Sure. Name these supposed "respectable" scientists, and then compare them to the scientists who claim otherwise.

You're just spewing your own personal opinion, not what "respectable" scientists consider as truth or the most likely possibility to the truth.

[shlver]

Under what authority can you say "it's not by itself"?
I can by using simplified assumptions using only radiative forcing of CO2, historical CO2 levels, the energy balance of the earth, and climate sensitivity which are all established published data. I can write out the calculations on paper if you would like.

[Legend of Josh]

I can by using simplified assumptions using only radiative forcing of CO2, historical CO2 levels, the energy balance of the earth, and climate sensitivity which are all established published data. I can write out the calculations on paper if you would like.

Sure, let's see it... and let's see this "all respectable scientists" list you speak of. Are you seriously saying humans do not have an impact on the climate changes we're experiencing, and altering the environment as we know it? You're saying all respectable scientist believe global warming is just blowing smoke, and isn't legit data?

:roll:

[shlver]

Sure. Name these supposed "respectable" scientists, and then compare them to the scientists who claim otherwise.

You're just spewing your own personal opinion, not what "respectable" scientists consider as truth or the most likely possibility to the truth.
What are you talking about? Get out of this thread if you don't know what you're talking about.

[shlver]

Sure, let's see it... and let's see this "all respectable scientists" list you speak of. Are you seriously saying humans do not have an impact on the climate changes we're experiencing, and altering the environment as we know it? You're saying all respectable scientist believe global warming is just blowing smoke, and isn't legit data?

:roll:
All respectable scientists acknowledge that CO2 emissions have a net positive effect on flux,
Read. Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying.

[Legend of Josh]

What are you talking about? Get out of this thread if you don't know what you're talking about.

What? I asked you to present facts to the claims you're posting. You're simply trying to avoid what I'm asking with a weak ass attempt saying another poster doesn't know what they're talking about, when it's more than obvious YOU'RE the one who's in the dark.

So, instead of coming up with a pathetic, lame, laughable response as the one I quoted from you above, maybe you should be ready to bring the facts that support what you're claiming.

No?

:no:

(moron)

[Legend of Josh]

All respectable scientists acknowledge that CO2 emissions have a net positive effect on flux,
Read. Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying.

Again, who are all these "ALL RESPECTABLE SCIENTISTS" you speak of? Please enlighten us, and not just some single article URL from a single scientist who is making this claim.

Who are all these "ALL" respectable scientist you speak of?

The polar bears were in absolutely zero danger of being in danger of extinction 100-150 years ago, however due to the Industrial Revolution it's all a different story... yet you claim all these respectable scientists say otherwise.

[shlver]

Again, who are all these "ALL RESPECTABLE SCIENTISTS" you speak of? Please enlighten us, and not just some single article URL from a single scientist who is making this claim.

Who are all these "ALL" respectable scientist you speak of?

The polar bears were in absolutely zero danger of being in danger of extinction 100-150 years ago, however due to the Industrial Revolution it's all a different story... yet you claim all these respectable scientists say otherwise.
This is ****ing hilarious. He has no idea what flux means and how it affects emissivity and he's trying to argue with me. LOL:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol :lol :lol :lol

[shlver]

Just for you loj, an increase in flux means less efficient emissivity of thermal energy resulting in higher temperatures to emit the same amount of energy. You were trying to argue with yourself this whole time.:lol

[bmulls]

Just for you loj, an increase in flux means less efficient emissivity of thermal energy resulting in higher temperatures to emit the same amount of energy. You were trying to argue with yourself this whole time.:lol

http://i.qkme.me/35ol0s.jpg

[shlver]

http://i.qkme.me/35ol0s.jpg
It's not even complex, this is intro physics. It's kind of funny that some staunch supporters of anthropogenic climate change don't even know the language of the most well established and elementary fact in the science of climate.

[Legend of Josh]

Just for you loj, an increase in flux means less efficient emissivity of thermal energy resulting in higher temperatures to emit the same amount of energy. You were trying to argue with yourself this whole time.:lol

Well, then just smack me in the face.

[Brunch@Five]

Why would humans be the exception when things go extinct? Is that a serious question? Cavemen survived greater climate change than humanity has the ability to cause. And they did it with sticks and stones. Fear mongering isn't only bad when republicans do it.....

this is either ignorant or cynical. Sure we will survive - the question is how and who. Some people would have survived a third world war too, but as Einstein said, WW IV would be fought with bow and arrow. We in developed countries are fortunate that we'll likely not be affected the most by climate change, despite contributing most to it. So it's also a question of moral how much effort we put in trying to prevent excessive change.

[Brunch@Five]

btw, new report/study is out by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research via World Bank.
http://climatechange.worldbank.org/content/climate-change-report-warns-dramatically-warmer-world-century

some excerpts:

[QUOTE]Heat Extremes

A 4

[KevinNYC]

It's been "below" average here in the state of North Carolina.

hence the word "global"

[KevinNYC]

Where'd you hear this bullshit statistic? Your ass?

Yes, the part of my ass that contains the National Academy of Sciences
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.full.pdf+html

[kNicKz]

97% of climate scientists.

Where is the validation on this number? Some wild call outs are being made in this thread

[AlphaWolf24]

Yes, the part of my ass that contains the National Academy of Sciences
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.full.pdf+html



- What is that overwelming "97%" :rolleyes: of petition scientists claiming though?...

- are they saying...Human CO2 emissions will cause massive catastrophic warming, It will cause disaster in the near future ruining the world for our children. This warming will lead to massive flooding, drought, wide scale starvation, wars, plagues, melting of the polar ice, flooding of huge areas of the world...???


- or Al Gores academy award acting of ...OMG!! 23 feet of sea level rise and polar Ice caps melting!!....everybody will drown.


- Or the "deniers"(what is really happening) claims that the world seems to have wamed about .6-.7 C over the last century and that may be somewhat due to human activity....waters lels may rise 15-20 cm ?


- Your "97%" of scientists ( wich only happened to be 400)duplicated thier names and some even faked thier credentials.....

but what are they saying?.....world seems to have wamed about .6-.7 C over the last century and that may be somewhat due to human activity..:confusedshrug:

(opens pocket)

[Kblaze8855]

Yes i am quite safe in my bubble and so are you. And if somehow we aren't there is nothing to be done about it now. Global warming is a first world concern and 95% of us don't care either. Some guy in Cambodia working for 70 bucks a week doesn't give a **** what you think about the environment in 160 years and what someone in Italy can do about it.


Its such a bullshit movement. Its .02 percent of the world talking shit on the internet. You aren't going to do a thing because deep down you know you don't matter and would be wasting your life.

You can help save lives in tangible ways today. I try. Idonate to a place called nothing but net which pays for malaria nets for poor people. Not much but i bet its gonna help more than some internet fear mongering by people trying to sound smart pointing out shit I've been told for 20 years.

Talking about ****ing polar bears....

I'm all for polar bears but on a grand scale....eh. I don't see to many woolly rhinos. Many animals designed to flourish during an ice age die when its gone. Part of it may be us. much of it isn't. Either way...give it time shit will be drastically different.

We may make it take less time....but it won't be stopped by us. And most of the world has too many real problems to care what we think about their carbon footprint. And i don't blame them.

[-p.tiddy-]

Damn, I hope my great great great great great great great great grandchildren will be able to fix this issue...

[Nick Young]

Yes i am quite safe in my bubble and so are you. And if somehow we aren't there is nothing to be done about it now. Global warming is a first world concern and 95% of us don't care either. Some guy in Cambodia working for 70 bucks a week doesn't give a **** what you think about the environment in 160 years and what someone in Italy can do about it.


Its such a bullshit movement. Its .02 percent of the world talking shit on the internet. You aren't going to do a thing because deep down you know you don't matter and would be wasting your life.

You can help save lives in tangible ways today. I try. Idonate to a place called nothing but net which pays for malaria nets for poor people. Not much but i bet its gonna help more than some internet fear mongering by people trying to sound smart pointing out shit I've been told for 20 years.

Talking about ****ing polar bears....
:applause: :applause: :applause:

I hate elitists. There are people like DeucesWallace out there making a career out of fearmongering.

[Brunch@Five]

Yes i am quite safe in my bubble and so are you. And if somehow we aren't there is nothing to be done about it now. Global warming is a first world concern and 95% of us don't care either. Some guy in Cambodia working for 70 bucks a week doesn't give a **** what you think about the environment in 160 years and what someone in Italy can do about it.


Its such a bullshit movement. Its .02 percent of the world talking shit on the internet. You aren't going to do a thing because deep down you know you don't matter and would be wasting your life.



you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Guy in Cambodia doesn't care? If so, it's because he doesn't have the proper education to get to that knowledge (which is a whole other problem).
Climate Change absolutely is NOT a first world concern. Poor developing countries will face adverse effects more than the "first world". Which is why the group of those countries in the UN (the LDC, least developed countries, and the AOSIS, association of small island states) are pushing for a 1.5

[Hotlantadude81]

I was hit by Hurricane Sandy. Hurricanes were happening before my bloodline, and will continue to happen.

Anytime a hurricane strikes the US now at least some will say Global Warming is the cause. It doesn't matter how weak it might be. Remember the whole "melting streetlights" stuff that got some people excited (or scared) this past summer?

[Hotlantadude81]

Yes i am quite safe in my bubble and so are you. And if somehow we aren't there is nothing to be done about it now. Global warming is a first world concern and 95% of us don't care either. Some guy in Cambodia working for 70 bucks a week doesn't give a **** what you think about the environment in 160 years and what someone in Italy can do about it.


Its such a bullshit movement. Its .02 percent of the world talking shit on the internet. You aren't going to do a thing because deep down you know you don't matter and would be wasting your life.

You can help save lives in tangible ways today. I try. Idonate to a place called nothing but net which pays for malaria nets for poor people. Not much but i bet its gonna help more than some internet fear mongering by people trying to sound smart pointing out shit I've been told for 20 years.

Talking about ****ing polar bears....

I'm all for polar bears but on a grand scale....eh. I don't see to many woolly rhinos. Many animals designed to flourish during an ice age die when its gone. Part of it may be us. much of it isn't. Either way...give it time shit will be drastically different.

We may make it take less time....but it won't be stopped by us. And most of the world has too many real problems to care what we think about their carbon footprint. And i don't blame them.

There ain't shit we can do about it anyway... Besides adapt to the best of our abilities.

[Kblaze8855]

It should be clear what i meant. This is an issue largely discussed by the top one percent of the world and most won't do anything and those who do won't have an impact.

Its not really am issue of education either. you aren't the only one with google and al gore charts. You aren't especially informed. you just choose to make a big deal of it on the internet. What are you really doing? Serious question? What? If its anything less than you could.....who are you to lecture me?

If its such a major deal....go devote your life to it. No? Rather google it and tell me shit i already know and don't care about? If so....the difference in my caring and yours is what?

I'm realistic about what can be done. You must be to or I'm sure you could find more to do. You just want to preach then use the money that could help on your cable bill.

I skip right to the not doing anything. You stop to preach. We end up the same place only I've not given any reason to believe i cared to begin with

[Brunch@Five]

It should be clear what i meant. This is an issue largely discussed by the top one percent of the world and most won't do anything and those who do won't have an impact.

Its not really am issue of education either. you aren't the only one with google and al gore charts. You aren't especially informed. you just choose to make a big deal of it on the internet. What are you really doing? Serious question? What? If its anything less than you could.....who are you to lecture me?

I have a degree in geography (B.Sc.) as well as Political Science and Sociology (B.A.). Research focus is development research and international relations/ European politics. I don't use google, and have never read an Al Gore book nor seen a film.

I'm not lecturing you, I'm giving you sources of information which you probably are too lazy to look for yourself as complacent as you are in your bubble.

The rest of your post is not worth responding too, as it's just full of wrong assumptions.
Maybe rething your point that it's not worth doing anything about climate change, whether it's man-made or not. People are facing adverse effects as of right now. It's morally AND economically the right thing to go and try doing something about it.
It's parts of the constituency like you that prevent decision-makers from taking action.

[Kblaze8855]

I ask again what are you doing about it? I always get a laugh when someone acts like a social issue is the beginning of the end times and then I find out they donate 30 dollars a year to some charity that's spends 60 percent of that on advertising.

if you are taking action please let me know. but if you .....someone who claims to care arent doing all that you can how can you expect people who don't give a damn?

the reason this is a first world issue is because the extreme vast majority of the world cant afford to give time and attention to such a trivial issue. and compared to the day to day struggle of the average man it is exactly that.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and as far as why those in power arent doing anything....

Im quite sure its because they have real issues to take care of. Not...one day issues. Not even "This might have made the present a little worse" issues. Im talking....faith led maniacs slowly working out ways to get their hands on a nuke. Im talking millions out of work and billions in poverty.

I hope they arent stopping working on todays tangible issues to look into shooting bottle rockets at the asteriod that is the global climate change. We are on a world where Greenland has been a rainforest and Death Valley was under water. We arent talking about anything shocking happening compared to world history. We are talking about the timetable of inevitable massive change.

And the bad thing is....most telling the world to shoot the bottle rockets arent even shooting them themselves. They are just suggesting others do it....or worse...trying to spread asteriod awareness in their down time.

I want our leaders to fight wars that can be won. The way the world is today...you have a better chance of ending global hunger than slowing the human nature killing machine.

And hunger wont be stopped either. Not as the world is or will be any time soon.

At some point you have to fight the battles that can be won. We can prevent a terrorist from blowing up Toronto. We cant turn around climate change. Perhaps slow it down? If the world fired all its bottle rockets at once...maybe.

But we are too busy firing them at eachother. I was given this world...I didnt make it. I do what I can for those I love and people I can help. The world is gonna do what its gonna do.

[DeuceWallaces]

Oh and as far as why those in power arent doing anything....

Im quite sure its because they have real issues to take care of. Not...one day issues. Not even "This might have made the present a little worse" issues. Im talking....faith led maniacs slowly working out ways to get their hands on a nuke. Im talking millions out of work and billions in poverty.

I hope they arent stopping working on todays tangible issues to look into shooting bottle rockets at the asteriod that is the global climate change. We are on a world where Greenland has been a rainforest and Death Valley was under water. We arent talking about anything shocking happening compared to world history. We are talking about the timetable of inevitable massive change.

And the bad thing is....most telling the world to shoot the bottle rockets arent even shooting them themselves. They are just suggesting others do it....or worse...trying to spread asteriod awareness in their down time.

I want our leaders to fight wars that can be won. The way the world is today...you have a better chance of ending global hunger than slowing the human nature killing machine.

And hunger wont be stopped either. Not as the world is or will be any time soon.

At some point you have to fight the battles that can be won. We can prevent a terrorist from blowing up Toronto. We cant turn around climate change. Perhaps slow it down? If the world fired all its bottle rockets at once...maybe.

But we are too busy firing them at eachother. I was given this world...I didnt make it. I do what I can for those I love and people I can help. The world is gonna do what its gonna do.

This is today's issue. It's causing all sorts of problems for people all around the world; some of which are very serious. You have no idea what the **** you're talking about. Get out of this thread and go make a youtube mix or some other stupid shit.

[Brunch@Five]

Are you completely oblivious to the fact that climate change is already adversely affecting a large portion of the world? What are you even brabbling about? That climate change is not a serious challenge?
You're completely off on whether we can do something about it. And even if there's only a chance we might be successful, we have the responsibility to try.

You're so ignorant that you don't even get that the fight against climate change IS a fight against hunger in poverty. Had you taken a look at the World Bank paper I linked too you'd know that. Leaders in developing countries know that, scientists know it, people engaged in development politics know it, which is why they are pushing for more committment against climate change.

ignoring the climate change problem basically annihilates every chance at ending the hunger problem.




I ask again what are you doing about it? I always get a laugh when someone acts like a social issue is the beginning of the end times and then I find out they donate 30 dollars a year to some charity that's spends 60 percent of that on advertising.

if you are taking action please let me know. but if you .....someone who claims to care arent doing all that you can how can you expect people who don't give a damn?

I spend money on my education in this field, hope to work in that area in the near future and contribute to worthy causes with my skills and knowledge. That's the most I can do. That and accepting the challenges at hand and leaving my personal bubble of complacency.

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

[DeuceWallaces]

I can by using simplified assumptions using only radiative forcing of CO2, historical CO2 levels, the energy balance of the earth, and climate sensitivity which are all established published data. I can write out the calculations on paper if you would like.

Well your original point is still up for debate. So maybe you should write them out and then send them in to Global Change Biology or a similar outlet.

[Kblaze8855]

I spend money on my education in this field, hope to work in that area in the near future and contribute to worthy causes with my skills and knowledge. That's the most I can do. That and accepting the challenges at hand and leaving my personal bubble of complacency.


Im gonna talk to you about this issue for a moment as Ifeel you may be trying to do more than shoot your bottle rocket. I believe things like this:


Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Will always be your biggest obstacle. The divisive mocking that creates two "teams" that argue like children with neither side listening....and the idea that people who arent terribly concerned simply dont know enough to be.

I will grant you this....

Most people in the world will never ever ever bother to look into any of this and even those in "developed" countries will mostly ignore it.

So ignorance is something you just have to accept. So "Ignorance is bliss" would be fair to say to many. And some are just...idiots.

Me....no matter what you may think of my thoughts on this I am no doubt more willing and able to look into it than most and I am above average intelligence. Not much to brag about but....lets be real. The average is not very high when you still have a huge chunk of the world doubting evolution.

My point...

Me:

Non republican(I hate that opinions on this issue are so politicized but...just being real)

Educated(not that I had much interest in the field in question)

Generally concerned about the well being of my fellow man

Reasonably sure hurricanes are not caused by gay marriage.

A lover of most aspects of science

Have little doubt that when people who devote their lives to it tell me the climate is changing...that it probably is.

Ive been reading links and watching clips and movies and hearing various people talk up the issue for over 15 years. Ive been arguing about it here for over 10. I am not new to this issue.

If a man like me...does not care. What hope do you have of reaching the average american or citizen of the world?

My question is this...why...do you think climate change(when exactly did we stop saying global warming by the way) is low on my list of day to day concerns.

If you are serious about making a difference you must know that apathy is probably your biggest obstacle. So your type need to figure out why people dont care. And especially why people who are reasonably informed of what is going on...dont care.

So tell me please...why do you think someone like me...is not terribly concerned?

If you are gonna just give me a "U dumb...lol!" just give me that and ill assume you are less serious than I thought and leave you to it. I imagine someone making a life out of this knows that indifference is at least one of the biggest problems. So lets talk about that.

I'll listen. Lets see what you think.

[Nanners]

arguing that climate change is invented for scientists to make money is like arguing that satan buried dinosaur bones and put evolution in textbooks to test our faith in god.

climate change might not really start effecting us during our lifetimes, but future generations are going to look back on us like... thanks assholes.

[AlphaWolf24]

arguing that climate change is invented for scientists to make money is like arguing that satan buried dinosaur bones and put evolution in textbooks to test our faith in god.

climate change might not really start effecting us during our lifetimes, but future generations are going to look back on us like... thanks assholes.


- So future generations will disregard all we ( previous enerations) gave them...( I.E. the industrial revolution , Transportation ,communication , Indor Plumbing etc..etc...)because the climate changed .6 - .7 C ??? over the past 100 years??


No one is going going care.

[Nanners]

- So future generations will disregard all we ( previous enerations) gave them...( I.E. the industrial revolution , Transportation ,communication , Indor Plumbing etc..etc...)because the climate changed .6 - .7 C ??? over the past 100 years??


No one is going going care.


yeah i can totally see that

"you trashed the earth, consumed all the non-renewable resources, and sent most animal species extinct.... but we forgive you because you invented indoor plumbing"

:oldlol:

[Brunch@Five]

Will always be your biggest obstacle. The divisive mocking that creates two "teams" that argue like children with neither side listening....and the idea that people who arent terribly concerned simply dont know enough to be.

I will grant you this....

Most people in the world will never ever ever bother to look into any of this and even those in "developed" countries will mostly ignore it.

So ignorance is something you just have to accept. So "Ignorance is bliss" would be fair to say to many. And some are just...idiots.

Me....no matter what you may think of my thoughts on this I am no doubt more willing and able to look into it than most and I am above average intelligence. Not much to brag about but....lets be real. The average is not very high when you still have a huge chunk of the world doubting evolution.

My point...

Me:

Non republican(I hate that opinions on this issue are so politicized but...just being real)

Educated(not that I had much interest in the field in question)

Generally concerned about the well being of my fellow man

Reasonably sure hurricanes are not caused by gay marriage.

A lover of most aspects of science

Have little doubt that when people who devote their lives to it tell me the climate is changing...that it probably is.

Ive been reading links and watching clips and movies and hearing various people talk up the issue for over 15 years. Ive been arguing about it here for over 10. I am not new to this issue.

If a man like me...does not care. What hope do you have of reaching the average american or citizen of the world?

My question is this...why...do you think climate change(when exactly did we stop saying global warming by the way) is low on my list of day to day concerns.

If you are serious about making a difference you must know that apathy is probably your biggest obstacle. So your type need to figure out why people dont care. And especially why people who are reasonably informed of what is going on...dont care.

So tell me please...why do you think someone like me...is not terribly concerned?

If you are gonna just give me a "U dumb...lol!" just give me that and ill assume you are less serious than I thought and leave you to it. I imagine someone making a life out of this knows that indifference is at least one of the biggest problems. So lets talk about that.

I'll listen. Lets see what you think.

The single individual cannot be blamed for failing to understand climate change, or not doing something about it. So I shouldn't fault you. I know you're not stupid, and care about your fellows, are thoughtful ... I've read your posts in the past ~10 years.
If you are as well-read about the subject as you suppose, you should be able to draw the connection between climate change and phenomena like hunger, malnutrition, migration and poverty. If additionally you trust in science that mankind is responsible for the recent drastic change (@alpha-wolf: .8

[AlphaWolf24]

yeah i can totally see that

- "you trashed the earth, consumed all the non-renewable resources, and sent most animal species extinct.... but we forgive you because you invented indoor plumbing"

:oldlol:


"You trashed the Earth"......the same Earth that I can drive my car or take a Plane and travel anywhere / anytime all because of my ForeFathers using Fossil Fuels and Petro based Technology..

up until then Most people Lived a poor hard life lucky to see 40 years old....


- Those stupid people.....killing 1 species of Salamander....for stupid indoor Plumbing.

who cares about preventing desease and epidemic.....who cares about running water?...or clean drinking water for the masses?......my Forefathers killed off a spotted salamander so we can have fresh water anywhere we go........damn them!!!!


seriously.....go 3 days without using your toilet or shower...go one day without drinking fresh water........then come back and tell us how stupid indoor plumbing is.

[gigantes]

climate change might not really start effecting us during our lifetimes, but future generations are going to look back on us like... thanks assholes.
future generations? what future generations?

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]The single individual cannot be blamed for failing to understand climate change, or not doing something about it. So I shouldn't fault you. I know you're not stupid, and care about your fellows, are thoughtful ... I've read your posts in the past ~10 years.
If you are as well-read about the subject as you suppose, you should be able to draw the connection between climate change and phenomena like hunger, malnutrition, migration and poverty. If additionally you trust in science that mankind is responsible for the recent drastic change (@alpha-wolf: .8

[Brunch@Five]

- Look I'm all for midigating CO2 emmisions....but I'm also recognizing the here and now.

- What I'm saying ( and what other psoters I think are trying to say) is using Tactics like "Global temps Rising!!!"....Hurricane caused by Global warming !!...everyone needs to go green!!!......OIL BAD!!!.....Solar GOOD!! (is the wrong way......and frankly no gives a ****.)

- Real People with Real Lives need to LIVE Now......using Tactics about how we may or may not be destroying our Planet is the wrong way to go about it.

- Yes...we need an alternative to the internal combustion engine...we need to eliminate all CO2 emmisions ...that means "pushing the reset button" on all our transportation / manufaturing...

that will not happen until all our Great Great Great Grandchildren redesign a noncombustible engine that WORKS!!!....and then what are the reprocussions from that technology?....


what do we do until then?........Our Lives/economy does not run on sunlight and rainbows...

you're putting up a strawman. No one here, and no serious scientist or politician advocates that we stop using CO2 emitting technologies immediately. The UN has set goals that we can achieve with little economic suffering. Long-term we will benefit, both ecologically and economically. You're the guy panicking, not "us" who advocate going green.

[AlphaWolf24]

you're putting up a strawman. No one here, and no serious scientist or politician advocates that we stop using CO2 emitting technologies immediately. The UN has set goals that we can achieve with little economic suffering. Long-term we will benefit, both ecologically and economically. You're the guy panicking, not "us" who advocate going green.


Not really trying to make a strawman ( what the F is a Strawman?)....and will have to read up on the UN goals are..

- I'm more familiar with Cali's Co2 enviromental acts..

- California produces 2% of all the worlds Co2 emissions and yet we are trying to reduce/eliminate all green house gases...by 2030( by up to 17% from 1990)...wich look at what economic state we are in....it's strangholding jobs/ our economy.

- what longterm benifits?......what about right now?...China is currently constructing the equivalent of two, 500 megawatt, coal-fired power plants per week and a capacity comparable to the entire UK power grid ...so we stranglehold our state/nation so it can only be green in Cali.

China is by far the leader in green house gases.....and going YOLO on Co2 emmissions.....


so again I ask you.....what about Right now?......stranghold jobs and econimic growth to lower Carbon Footprint a little by 2030???


- and part of Cali's plan to reduce emisions is having more Hybrid vehicles...( more miles per gallon = less gas = less emissions)....how do we make batteries???......Mine the earth...( With big machines that run off of ethanol righ?...lets turn all the land into a giant corn field.....that will be much better)..:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[Legend of Josh]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

I hate elitists. There are people like DeucesWallace out there making a career out of fearmongering.

This is true, but you need the DW's of the world to offset the Hawkers. Those who are extremists on either side are the most annoying, but they need to co-exist so they can spend their entire lives going back and forth accomplishing nothing.

:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

The single individual cannot be blamed for failing to understand climate change, or not doing something about it. So I shouldn't fault you. I know you're not stupid, and care about your fellows, are thoughtful ... I've read your posts in the past ~10 years.
If you are as well-read about the subject as you suppose, you should be able to draw the connection between climate change and phenomena like hunger, malnutrition, migration and poverty.


Here is the problem....and where these arguments turn ugly and people revert to team mode and start using old talking points and making no progress.

Drawing a connection between hunger and poverty and such...and the climate....

Saying things like that force the other side to point out that every single thing you are connecting to it has existed since the dawn of time.

And when you start trying to tie it all together and people get the weather into it...you start to sound like ambulance chasers. Finding misfortune and turning it to suit your argument when misfortune has always been and will be. And much of it....especially poverty and hunger...isnt supply. Its greed of those who have east access to things. America wastes 170 billion dollars in food a year....enough to have saved every person who died of hunger in each year. And have some left.

And thats just america. Not the entire "first" world. And the dismissal of such things when someone has a point to make bugs me.

You can tie a thousand things to people not having food. But when we have enough for everyone...and we just dont give it to them...I wont blame the climate.

And when people have been dying by the hundreds of thousands in floods and storms for thousands of years I wont blame the industrial revolution.

Will I accept that the garbage we throw into the air can come back to haunt us in say....increased storm power due to slightly warmer water? Sure. Thats basic.

But im almost(and I hate to even use this word) offended when some idiot starts talking climate change(nice blanket statement to be able to cover everything outside) like a point is proven when people are dying in the streets.

It really does feel like ambulance chasing the way people use misfortune to whip up these arguments. You would almost think bad weather started in 1890....just rubs me the wrong way.

[quote]If additionally you trust in science that mankind is responsible for the recent drastic change (@alpha-wolf: .8

[Droid101]

http://patrick.net/forum/content/uploads/2012/03/what-if-we-make-a-better-world-for-nothing.jpg

[AlphaWolf24]

http://patrick.net/forum/content/uploads/2012/03/what-if-we-make-a-better-world-for-nothing.jpg


- yes but how do we reach those goals posted in the comic?.....

- do you know how much money would need to be spent to lower our Green house gases just a little???....s

- and what does energy independence mean ( the #1 on the list)?.....If you can explain that for me please. ( How can we create energy in our country without creating Green house gas?)

[Kblaze8855]

I see now that i was left what seems to new a"you used to be cool" message over my feeling about polar bears......

Some of you are too sensitive to be grown....

[Brunch@Five]

Here is the problem....and where these arguments turn ugly and people revert to team mode and start using old talking points and making no progress.

Drawing a connection between hunger and poverty and such...and the climate....

Saying things like that force the other side to point out that every single thing you are connecting to it has existed since the dawn of time.

And when you start trying to tie it all together and people get the weather into it...you start to sound like ambulance chasers. Finding misfortune and turning it to suit your argument when misfortune has always been and will be. And much of it....especially poverty and hunger...isnt supply. Its greed of those who have east access to things. America wastes 170 billion dollars in food a year....enough to have saved every person who died of hunger in each year. And have some left.

And thats just america. Not the entire "first" world. And the dismissal of such things when someone has a point to make bugs me.

You can tie a thousand things to people not having food. But when we have enough for everyone...and we just dont give it to them...I wont blame the climate.

And when people have been dying by the hundreds of thousands in floods and storms for thousands of years I wont blame the industrial revolution.

Will I accept that the garbage we throw into the air can come back to haunt us in say....increased storm power due to slightly warmer water? Sure. Thats basic.

But im almost(and I hate to even use this word) offended when some idiot starts talking climate change(nice blanket statement to be able to cover everything outside) like a point is proven when people are dying in the streets.

It really does feel like ambulance chasing the way people use misfortune to whip up these arguments. You would almost think bad weather started in 1890....just rubs me the wrong way.

you really make it easy for yourself. So you acknowledge man-made climate change and the problems it causes, and then choose to ignore that knowledge and say "oh, that has always happened, so why care about it". The World Bank and most other development agencies aren't saying that climate change is throwing the Sustainable Development cause back decades. Other than problems in distribution and excessive waste in developed countries, climate change diminishes developing countries own capabilities to cope with all sorts of critical phenomena.
Also, science now can say with some confidence that recent extreme events (heat, precipitation etc.) can be tied to man-made climate change.





I....support what I feel I can help change. I can help the old lady across from my grandmas house on thanksgiving. So im picking her up since all her family has passed and shes alone. Someone in my neighborhood gets her yearly. Ive known her 30 years and im happy to do it. I can help her.

Me trying to stop the climate from changing is trying to catch the wind.

Its an issue of how fast it happens. Not if it does. I can see how one might say thats like never going to the doctor when you are sure to die one day no matter what. But really....I can extend my life 10-20% by taking care of myself. At least its possible. I can do that myself.

I cant prevent the ice age from ending or starting back up. Too big. Too much to do. Too many billions headed the other way.

No one is asking you to take responsibility for mankind. Just stop being a cynic and at least support those who do take responsibility in rhetoric.

[gigantes]

the very earliest life on earth was shaped by the forces of nature to lie, cheat, steal, etc... anything at all to gain an advantage over its fellow life forms. to consume whatever resources it was surrounded with without any concern for sustainability, and always to keep reproducing... to keep reproducing as quickly as the local factors permitted... or risk going extinct.

in the end, this is how we still behave as a species. despite being tribal, community-minded creatures for as much as six million years or more... despite having arguably the most elaborate brains and technology in earth history... despite having a common urge to transcend our animal nature and be 'better' or even 'spiritual' or 'enlightened'... in the end we still behave like our programming as a species.


so, kevinNYC, brunch@five, deucewallaces and other like-minded individuals--

what makes you think that arguments, science and reason are going to change enough minds to create a critical mass at this point? also, what would be the purpose? isn't it already too late to get GH gases under control given the glacial progress of politics, self-interested financial mechanisms, the huge inherent resistance of the technology and resource-entitled, and the increasingly powerful natural feedback mechanisms in play?

at this point, isn't the only chance remaining to hope for 11th-hour solutions, like artificial carbon sequestration sinks and controlled atmospheric particulate sun-blocking agents? that, and to make peace with one's deity of choice and to enjoy each remaining day that we're gifted with?

i dunno... maybe i've just lost something along the way.

i lived most of my adult life as a very green person, gave up my car in '95, involved myself with community gardens, farm shares, co-ops... lived as simply as reasonably possible, dumpster-dived for a third of my possessions, donated time and money to orgs that i thought could make a difference on a local and a global level, tried to keep abreast of the science even though i'm more an art person than a science person, tried to have many, many reasonable conversations on sustainability, etc with many people i knew and with strangers... anything and everything i could think of to live up to my standards and be a responsible human being and as much of a decent example as i might.

in the end, it got me nowhere and changed nothing that mattered.

life is short and nothing in the universe lasts, so why not enjoy the moment and say "to hell with changing other people and trying to save the planet as we know it"? at least... that's one thought which strongly suggests itself to me these days. :P

[Kblaze8855]

you really make it easy for yourself. So you acknowledge man-made climate change and the problems it causes, and then choose to ignore that knowledge and say "oh, that has always happened, so why care about it".

No. I accept that man may have some impact on the exact severity of things that have happened forever.....while also accepting that the most extreme weather we know about happened without our input. So I dont panic or get caught up in the whens and hows. The world with or without us will eventually have another ice age or eventually get hotter than we have ever known. As I said earlier...greenland was a forest and many deserts were under water...before we got here. If its a matter of when and not if....I focus on the things that can be changed not just....put off for a moment or altered slightly.



The World Bank and most other development agencies aren't saying that climate change is throwing the Sustainable Development cause back decades. Other than problems in distribution and excessive waste in developed countries, climate change diminishes developing countries own capabilities to cope with all sorts of critical phenomena.

That "other than" part is the key to me.

When we have enough for everyone...and wont give it to the people who arent born in the right country and look the right way....how are we looking at preventing climate change for the solution?

Its an issue of humanity. You have to look at what we are...who we are as a people...and figure out why we dont care. Why we put so much over helping the people who need it.

You know there is a product called "Neuticles" which is a surgical implant for neutered dogs and cats that mimics the look of still having balls. And since they were released....Americans have spent 221 million dollars on them. We spent 45 billion dollars on pets last year. Just in America. Entire world over 100 billion.

Have you any idea how many HUMANS wouldnt have to die if someone made a real effort to put an extra 100 billion into getting them supplies? Clean water tablets? Basic medical supplies? Rice and beans? Im not talking the works. Just...the basics. What they would need to live like...a 3rd as well as a poor american.

We have trillions of dollars wasted yearly without any consideration paid to the poor. If you show someone a dying child in person and ask them for 20 bucks that goes to the kid they would give it to you. But...tell them there are 400 million of them out of sight and it doesnt register. Doesnt make them exactly selfish...I have given to various charities that I feel help people....but I sure as hell still have a couple big screens, 5 rooms of cable, internet, and so on....in each of my 2 houses. So its not like im doing all I can.

Im not trying to judge humanity and ignore my own disregard of those in need. I just wonder why its so easy to ignore them. And what we can do about it.

We need to see the world as one nation. Just...brothers in humanity. And until we do all the rest of these causes feel like a lot of drama over nothing. When this awful shit is still going on I feel as passionate about global warming as I do about saving the whales(I am pro whale for the record).

Really...if we find a way to prevent climate change(an absurd notion on a large scale...but lets say we slow it)....do the poor then get what they need? Will they be safe?

If so...why didnt they get it 200 years ago? Think the social imbalance showed up lately? The people dying in Africa and asia have been there barely making it for generations dying of the same diseases almost wiped out in developed countries, dying when crops dont come in, and not being sent relief.

The problem of us disregarding people we dont have to see is much deeper than global warming and really...is to me the biggest problem the world has.

Stopping global warming to help the poor or even humanity as a whole is a bandaid on the heart attack that is the selfish nature of man.




Also, science now can say with some confidence that recent extreme events (heat, precipitation etc.) can be tied to man-made climate change.


Over a million people were killed in one flood in china in the 1800s. In the 1930s they had 2 years of droughts followed by crazy snow one winter then heavy rains and 7 huge storms in july alone killing around 3 million people. If that happens tomorrow....what are the odds someone like you connects it to global warming? Every single big storm someone comes on here and does it.

My question is this...and you may have an answer if its your field.

When these things have happened forever...thousands of years...billions...and we have no measurements and poor records kept until lately. How do you say with any confidence what causes them now....and didnt cause them then? What data do you have on the floods of 1287 in Europe that suggests what causes floods now could not have caused those?

I can see how that might sound a tad...smarmy(never had to write that word till now) but it is a serious question.

People seem to kinda treat this issue like a boogey man in the closet causing all forms of weather related misfortune. I wanna know....if we are at fault for some extreme weather why is history so littered with extreme weather?



This isnt "Its always happened so why care". Its me saying that it happening will never be as big a problem as the fact that people dont care that it happens. Because if people cared half the true misery in the world could be gone in our lifetimes. Im not worried about how preventing climate change can help feed people....we can feed them NOW....and dont do it. The world needs to help its people in literal physical ways...to start to care...before we put energy into trying to turn around climate change.

Because even if we turn it around...if the rich still shit on the poor they will be as bad off as they are now. Starvation is a hell of a lot older than the industrial revolution. Its just sadder now because we can end it and dont bother.







No one is asking you to take responsibility for mankind. Just stop being a cynic and at least support those who do take responsibility in rhetoric.


Compared to a child who believes everything is but a wish away a responsible adult is a cynic. But hes still right that you need to take action to make things happen.

Like it or not the great majority of people who dont have faith in others on a large scale are justified and proven right. You can say that if they showed a little faith they might have made success more likely...but you cant say they were wrong in the end.

You rarely lose betting on humans to do the wrong thing given the chance.

You can call me a cynic. I dont care. I dont think you will be able to call me wrong. Well intentioned you may be. But until the people of the "first" world care about those in the "third" none of this will make a real difference.

And your problem is the same as mine. I hate extreme poverty...you seem to hate the apathy of most when it comes to climate change.

And neither of us will get what we want because its a few million pulling against the human nature of 7 billion. Who wins that tug of war is obvious cynic or not.

So I try on the small scale. I do give to charity. Im setting up a secret santa donation for a family I know who needs it. I try to feed the poor when I can. Im not doing all I can and nobody I know is. But I dont need to be called selfish for doing what I know I can and not pinning my hopes to a sudden change in human nature.

If there is a longterm solution to your problem and mine...its how we raise our children and how they raise theirs.

Selfishness is the blight of the world. And global warming isnt that high on the list of problems it causes. Its on the list. But its not the first I feel we need to tackle. Especially when its one of the least likely to be turned around.

I dont expect a real reply to all that...just...getting it out. Its been on my mind and I try to explain why I feel the way I do when people seem...offended...by it.

[gigantes]

on a completely unrelated topic, willful ignorance and elaborate self-delusion makes the world go 'round. so god bless every cute little kitty out there in need of a hug.

[Brunch@Five]

I don't have much time right now, so I'll respond to a few points:


That "other than" part is the key to me.

When we have enough for everyone...and wont give it to the people who arent born in the right country and look the right way....how are we looking at preventing climate change for the solution?

That's a legitimate criticism, but it shows here that we think on different scales. My point was that climate change hurts the developing countries' OWN capabilities to cope with their problems, and makes them even more dependent on foreign aid. That is not what development politics want.
Direct food and clothing aid is actually hurting those societies, as they are destroying the market. Things like these help in form of short-term humanitarian aid, but they do not help alleviate suffering long-term, as change has to come from within those societies.
And when we have man-made climate-change, disproportionally caused by the western world (per capita, China isn't even in the top 10 I believe), that hurts the less developed world's livelihoods and makes it virtually impossible for them to provide for their people, long-term, it becomes a moral responsibility for us to limit climate change.
Thankfully, science has enabled us to see beyond phenomena like hunger and diseases and tackle them at their roots. Donating food and clothes is nice, but not really helping. That's what the "Sustainable Development" paradigm is about. Man-made climate-change is severely hurting that case.

[Kblaze8855]

It almost seems like you believe third world poverty is a recent issue. Many of the same places that need help now have been struggling to take care of their people for as long as we have history to check.

Kings of Mali were among the richest rulers in world history and had the resources and land to wipe out poverty. Instead they set up caravans of silk covered slaves and camels carrying hugs sacks of gold and gems and spent so much they flooded the market and destroyed the economy of entire neighboring Kingdoms.


The haves take from the have nots. Poor people work to create goods they can't afford themselves and someone a world away takes it for granted.

The same kind of people have suffered forever. If preventing climate change were the key places like Africa and rural areas of Asia and other places wouldn't have been struggling before humans had the ability to cause trouble.

Is that not reasonable?

[Brunch@Five]

It almost seems like you believe third world poverty is a recent issue. Many of the same places that need help now have been struggling to take care of their people for as long as we have history to check.

Kings of Mali were among the richest rulers in world history and had the resources and land to wipe out poverty. Instead they set up caravans of silk covered slaves and camels carrying hugs sacks of gold and gems and spent so much they flooded the market and destroyed the economy of entire neighboring Kingdoms.


The haves take from the have nots. Poor people work to create goods they can't afford themselves and someone a world away takes it for granted.

The same kind of people have suffered forever. If preventing climate change were the key places like Africa and rural areas of Asia and other places wouldn't have been struggling before humans had the ability to cause trouble.

Is that not reasonable?

You are of course right that limiting climate change won't feed and shelter or fairly distribute anything to anyone. It won't solve those problems.
However, and that's my (and the development researchers) point is that cliamte change will hit those who are most disadvantaged the strongest and make it virtually impossible to ever get out of their hole.
For meteorological and geological reasons, the regions around the equator and the tropics (low latitudes) face the most severe hazards due to climate change. They also have, due to underdevelopment, less capabilities to cope with these hazards.

The fact that climate change only adds to several structural disadvantages of less developed countries doesn't make it less important to combat it.

[Kblaze8855]

You are of course right that limiting climate change won't feed and shelter or fairly distribute anything to anyone. It won't solve those problems.
However, and that's my (and the development researchers) point is that cliamte change will hit those who are most disadvantaged the strongest and make it virtually impossible to ever get out of their hole.
For meteorological and geological reasons, the regions around the equator and the tropics (low latitudes) face the most severe hazards due to climate change. They also have, due to underdevelopment, less capabilities to cope with these hazards.

The fact that climate change only adds to several structural disadvantages of less developed countries doesn't make it less important to combat it.


just feels odd to me to blame something that the problem predates by thousands of years. This is gonna make their recovery impossible....this. Not thethings that have kept them down forever. Its global warming they need to worry about?


Its on the list i suppose. number 1? Eh....

[Kblaze8855]

I was reading an article on Al Gores terribly missed predictions on the ice caps by 2013 and was reminded of this.

Those photoshopped pictures of an iceless world with hurricanes everywhere?

Alarmists hurt their own cause more than they know.

[DeuceWallaces]

Lol Al Gore didn't predict anything. He put forth the highest end of some confidence interval a researcher developed; i.e. likely a model developed with the best data available at the time.

[Akrazotile]

Lol Al Gore didn't predict anything. He put forth the highest end of some confidence interval a researcher developed; i.e. likely a model developed with the best data available at the time.


That's not how Mr. Gore worded it.

He said "THE ICE CAPS ARE ALL GONNA BE GONE BY 2013!!!!!"


That's a prediction.


But obviously the climate fairies won't acknowledge that Gore BS'd, because they think that's equivalent to conceding climate change isn't real or something.


That's the prob in this country. Nobody is willing to be honest when the other side makes a valid point or when they screw up themselves, because they think it will nullify their entire cause.

Sad..