Michael Jordan average 33/8/8 in 1989 with...

[Derivative]

Michael Jordan in 1989 average 32.5ppg (53.8%FG), 8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.9 spg.....

with the second leading scorer averaging 14.4ppg...

Jordan is the goat scorer, playmaking SG, rebounding SG, perimeter defender, and GOAT all around player... Not even lebron james had this kind of statline


imagine if Michael jordan had dwight howard, pau gasol, and nash.... probably 32ppg, 14apg, 5rpg, 4spg.....

[talkingconch]

9-8

[Derivative]

wut?

[AngelEyes]

I don't know if anyone's game ever looked more beautiful than Jordan in 89'. Aesthetically it was off the charts.

[Callystarr]

Michael Jordan in 1989 average 32.5ppg (53.8%FG), 8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.9 spg.....

with the second leading scorer averaging 14.4ppg...

Jordan is the goat scorer, playmaking SG, rebounding SG, perimeter defender, and GOAT all around player... Not even lebron james had this kind of statline


imagine if Michael jordan had dwight howard, pau gasol, and nash.... probably 32ppg, 14apg, 5rpg, 4spg.....


Yeah and an 81-1 record.

and championships until Dwight retires...:eek:

[Sampsonsimpson]

I think he had about 16 triple doubles that season with 7 coming in a row, and he also had a bunch of 40 and 50 point games too

[La Frescobaldi]

Michael Jordan in 1989 average 32.5ppg (53.8%FG), 8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.9 spg.....

with the second leading scorer averaging 14.4ppg...

Jordan is the goat scorer, playmaking SG, rebounding SG, perimeter defender, and GOAT all around player... Not even lebron james had this kind of statline


imagine if Michael jordan had dwight howard, pau gasol, and nash.... probably 32ppg, 14apg, 5rpg, 4spg.....


1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.5
2. Karl Malone*-UTA 29.1
3. Dale Ellis-SEA 27.5
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 27.2
5. Chris Mullin*-GSW 26.5

?

[Micku]

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.5
2. Karl Malone*-UTA 29.1
3. Dale Ellis-SEA 27.5
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 27.2
5. Chris Mullin*-GSW 26.5

?

He is talking about wihtin the Bulls team. Pippen was the second leading scoring with 14.4 ppg.

I think that MJ played PG that year or he played it for a long stretch or something. So, he had the ball more in his hands.

[All Net]

madness, and we are amazed with Lebron's numbers but this was nuts.

[Blue&Orange]

I would say it was a damn shame he didn't team up with Hakeem and Payton and piled up titles so that we could have avoided all the nonsense from Kobe and Lebron stans. But fact is he did piled them up anyway and we still have to hear nonsense.

bu-bu-bu-bu he played with all this hof's... Varejao would be a uncontested HOF if he played with Jordan, that's what happens when you WIN.

[arifgokcen]

As good as jordan was that year,statistically lebron is still ahead a little bit if you account for pace and minutes.

Lebron's adjusted numbers to Jordan's minutes and Bulls pace that year

Jordan 32.5ppg on ts .614% 8rpg 8apg
Lebron 32.489ppg on ts .604% 7.9rpg 9.5apg

[Rysio]

in 1989
so that's about 26/6/6 in todays slowed down game. great numbers tho :applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

:bowdown:

[KOBE143]

so that's about 26/6/6 in todays slowed down game. great numbers tho :applause:
this

Looks like Kobe's numbers this season.. Therefore Kobe 17th season is equavalent to Jordan 1989.. Imagined what would prime Kobe's numbers in the 80s? :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

I don't know if anyone's game ever looked more beautiful than Jordan in 89'. Aesthetically it was off the charts.


Truth be told...coming from someone who watched those games....some in person...

Overrated season. Not in comparison to most. By but his standards. He had crazy assist numbers because he decided to go get them. He got triple doubles by...deciding to get easy defensive rebounds. He played better to me when his stats were worse in the early 90s.

He was flat out passing up easy shots(for him) to dump it off to guys who were often not even ready for it and then getting mad if they didnt score it.

That was not the best ball he played. Just the best numbers he put up.

[pauk]

That indeed is sick, he was playing alot of PG that season and dropped something like 10 triple doubles in a row if i remember correctly.... that was the best Jordan according to me, i believe he won a championship later in 1991 not because he got better, but because his team got better

[KungFuJoe]

Truth be told...coming from someone who watched those games....some in person...

Overrated season. Not in comparison to most. By but his standards. He had crazy assist numbers because he decided to go get them. He got triple doubles by...deciding to get easy defensive rebounds. He played better to me when his stats were worse in the early 90s.

He was flat out passing up easy shots(for him) to dump it off to guys who were often not even ready for it and then getting mad if they didnt score it.

That was not the best ball he played. Just the best numbers he put up.

Everything about this post is :facepalm worthy.

[Horatio33]

Everything about this post is :facepalm worthy.

Why? Great numbers but basketball is played on a court, not on a stat sheet. Bet you think Wilt's 50/25 season was the best ever.

[All Net]

Everything about this post is :facepalm worthy.

Do explain why you think this?

[Money 23]

That was not the best ball he played. Just the best numbers he put up.
Truth.

I wouldn't even say it was his most aesthetically pleasing game. That came in the early 90's, IMO

[CAstill]

No it wasn't. It was his real opinion because he was there and you weren't.
Jordan was better in the 90's.

[Young X]

MJ's worst game of that season: 21 pts, 10 asts, 12 rebs, 2 sts, 5 TO's on 29%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcHmRQ7NXyQ&hd=1

[hawke812]

This belongs in the college ball/high school forums. Jordan's Era was shit for competition:facepalm

[jlip]

MJ's worst game of that season: 21 pts, 10 asts, 12 rebs, 2 sts, 5 TO's on 29%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcHmRQ7NXyQ&hd=1

Statistically his worse game that season was an 18/7/7 game on 25% shooting.

Link (http://http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198812070DET.html)

[Young X]

Statistically his worse game that season was an 18/7/7 game on 25% shooting.

Link (http://http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198812070DET.html)
MJ only had 1 foul, 3 turnovers, and only attempted 16 shots in that game. In the game that I posted, MJ attempted 24 shots, only making 7, had more turnovers, and fouled out in a close game that went into overtime.

[Derivative]

This belongs in the college ball/high school forums. Jordan's Era was shit for competition:facepalm

late 80s was the golden age of basketball.....

agenda fail

[Derivative]

As good as jordan was that year,statistically lebron is still ahead a little bit if you account for pace and minutes.

Lebron's adjusted numbers to Jordan's minutes and Bulls pace that year

Jordan 32.5ppg on ts .614% 8rpg 8apg
Lebron 32.489ppg on ts .604% 7.9rpg 9.5apg


i am curious how u got that number? MJ's bull was the 2nd last in pace that year, and it's only 4 pace higher than lebron's cavs i believe

[Derivative]

bump

[dankok8]

Truth be told...coming from someone who watched those games....some in person...

Overrated season. Not in comparison to most. By but his standards. He had crazy assist numbers because he decided to go get them. He got triple doubles by...deciding to get easy defensive rebounds. He played better to me when his stats were worse in the early 90s.

He was flat out passing up easy shots(for him) to dump it off to guys who were often not even ready for it and then getting mad if they didnt score it.

That was not the best ball he played. Just the best numbers he put up.

This.

Jordan went to the scorer's table during games to see if he was credited with rebounds and assists. He was infatuated with triple doubles and got mad when his teammates missed what he deemed makeable shots. It was driving coach Doug Collins mad but he didn't have Jordan's respect to get in his face and confront him. Of course he would be fired after the season and the rest is history.

When Jordan played within a proper offensive system under Phil Jackson he was a much better basketball player even if he put up worse stats.

[T_L_P]

Michael Jordan in 1989 average 32.5ppg (53.8%FG), 8 apg, 8 rpg, and 2.9 spg.....

with the second leading scorer averaging 14.4ppg...

Jordan is the goat scorer, playmaking SG, rebounding SG, perimeter defender, and GOAT all around player... Not even lebron james had this kind of statline


imagine if Michael jordan had dwight howard, pau gasol, and nash.... probably 32ppg, 14apg, 5rpg, 4spg.....

No.

[Rocketswin2013]

so that's about 26/6/6 in todays slowed down game. great numbers tho :applause:
So you think he'd be James Harden today? :lol

[Marchesk]

Why? Great numbers but basketball is played on a court, not on a stat sheet. Bet you think Wilt's 50/25 season was the best ever.

It wasn't because Wilt's 24/24/8 on 68% was better.

[Rocketswin2013]

Truth be told...coming from someone who watched those games....some in person...

Overrated season. Not in comparison to most. By but his standards. He had crazy assist numbers because he decided to go get them. He got triple doubles by...deciding to get easy defensive rebounds. He played better to me when his stats were worse in the early 90s.

He was flat out passing up easy shots(for him) to dump it off to guys who were often not even ready for it and then getting mad if they didnt score it.

That was not the best ball he played. Just the best numbers he put up.


This.

Jordan went to the scorer's table during games to see if he was credited with rebounds and assists. He was infatuated with triple doubles and got mad when his teammates missed what he deemed makeable shots. It was driving coach Doug Collins mad but he didn't have Jordan's respect to get in his face and confront him. Of course he would be fired after the season and the rest is history.

When Jordan played within a proper offensive system under Phil Jackson he was a much better basketball player even if he put up worse stats.


LA Times, April 11, 1989

Since switching to point guard for the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan has become statistic conscious. He has started checking with statisticians to see how close he is to a triple-double. He had a string of seven consecutive triple-doubles broken Friday night."The guys at the scorer's desk let me know what I need," Jordan said.So, too, do the Bulls' a.ssistant coaches."They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle," Jordan said. "They say, 'You need three more of this. You need four more of that.'




"The Sun-Sentinel, April 9, 1989

During breaks in games, Jordan has been wandering over to the scorer`s table to get updates on how many rebounds, a.ssists and points he needs to fill his three double-figure quotas."The guys at the scorer`s desk let me know what I need," he said. "They tell me, `You need three a.ssists; you need two rebounds."Jordan also has been double-checking the figures with Chicago a.ssistants."They keep me in tune," he said. "They keep reminding me when I come back to the huddle, how much I need."Last Sunday, at home against New Jersey, the 10th a.ssist was Jordan`s final goal."I knew I had nine a.ssists," he said, "and I looked at (forward) Brad (Sellers), and said, `Brad, can I count on you for my 10th?` And he said, `yeah` and hit a jumper from the baseline."


Bumped purely so this season can stop being brought up as some GOAT-tier season. Several players had better years, and the way Jordan played wasn't as conducive to winning as his stats suggested.

[bond10]

No.

How the hell is that a no? Let me guess, you must think Pippen was the defense GOAT. MJ was actually the better defender up until the second threepeat when too old to play 100% at both ends of the floor.

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/

[Young X]

MJ's playoff run this season is insane. Almost dragged that terrible Bulls team to the finals beating the 2nd and 3rd seed without homecourt. Bulls were the only team to actually win against the Pistons in the playoffs too. Absolutely ridiculous season.

[Rocketswin2013]

How the hell is that a no? Let me guess, you must think Pippen was the defense GOAT. MJ was actually the better defender up until the second threepeat when too old to play 100% at both ends of the floor.

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/
I don't even see Jordan's case over Pippen defensively. Pippen took on tougher assignments, with more positonal flexibility and was more effective on a consistent basis(year-to-year). Jordan was probably one of the best defenders ever for a player with a huge offensive load...among wing players

[andgar923]

I don't even see Jordan's case over Pippen defensively. Pippen took on tougher assignments, with more positonal flexibility and was more effective on a consistent basis(year-to-year). Jordan was probably one of the best defenders ever for a player with a huge offensive load...among wing players

Wrong.

[bond10]

I don't even see Jordan's case over Pippen defensively. Pippen took on tougher assignments, with more positonal flexibility and was more effective on a consistent basis(year-to-year). Jordan was probably one of the best defenders ever for a player with a huge offensive load...among wing players

Did you even click the link I posted? It debunks the exact myth that you spewing. Jordan had more tougher defensive assignments out of all playoff series. Pippen is definitely more versatile and was a beast at guarding any position but MJ certainly has a case over Pippen when it comes to defense.

[Rocketswin2013]

Wrong.
Convincing argument.

MJ's playoff run this season is insane. Almost dragged that terrible Bulls team to the finals beating the 2nd and 3rd seed without homecourt. Bulls were the only team to actually win against the Pistons in the playoffs too. Absolutely ridiculous season.
His overall '89 postseason run was pretty incredible and I'd say he played at a higher level than he did in the '89 regular season, but that series against Detroit wasn't great at all. He was great one time in the entire series. Good in another game. Underwhelming in the rest, with even a disaster game in between.

[Smoke117]

I don't even see Jordan's case over Pippen defensively. Pippen took on tougher assignments, with more positonal flexibility and was more effective on a consistent basis(year-to-year). Jordan was probably one of the best defenders ever for a player with a huge offensive load...among wing players

Pippen is better and had a bigger impact because of his help/team defense. With his athleticism and length he could cover ground about as fast as anyone ever has. He had a tremendous basketball IQ too so he was always in the right place at the right time. It's a simple fact that Pippen peaked higher in 94 and especially 95 after Grant left. He practically was defending 3-4 players on every play in 95 because the two other best defenders of the first three-peat were gone. It was commonly mentioned how exhausted he looked at the end of games that season because how much energy he had to expend on the defensive end. Look at that line ups they were throwing out and tell me how else that Bulls team finished 2nd in defense...especially when the 2nd and 3rd guys who played the highest mins were atrocious defensive players like BJ and Toni.

[PP34Deuce]

Pippen is better and had a bigger impact because of his help/team defense. With his athleticism and length he could cover ground about as fast as anyone ever has. He had a tremendous basketball IQ too so he was always in the right place at the right time. It's a simple fact that Pippen peaked higher in 94 and especially 95 after Grant left. He practically was defending 3-4 players on every play in 95 because the two other best defenders of the first three-peat were gone. It was commonly mentioned how exhausted he looked at the end of games that season because how much energy he had to expend on the defensive end. Look at that line ups they were throwing out and tell me how else that Bulls team finished 2nd in defense...especially when the 2nd and 3rd guys who played the highest mins were atrocious defensive players like BJ and Toni.

Pippen much more versatile but if it was a quick wing defender for 2-3 minute periods, MJ actually was a better on ball defender I believed. I believe Pippen was incredible team defense wise and great man but MJ could just stick to you like glue for stretches.

I also remember MJ was more slick around screens than Pippen. He could compact his body and literally give no air space. Pippen could get beat but with his wingspan and height he had insane recovery.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Truth be told...coming from someone who watched those games....some in person...

Overrated season. Not in comparison to most. By but his standards. He had crazy assist numbers because he decided to go get them. He got triple doubles by...deciding to get easy defensive rebounds. He played better to me when his stats were worse in the early 90s.

He was flat out passing up easy shots(for him) to dump it off to guys who were often not even ready for it and then getting mad if they didnt score it.

That was not the best ball he played. Just the best numbers he put up.

geez the player you stan literally does this all the time and i've seen you call other morons for bringing that up as "stat padding" and using that as a reason for his numbers being overrated

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Hey Yo]

geez the player you stan literally does this all the time and i've seen you call other morons for bringing that up as "stat padding" and using that as a reason for his numbers being overrated

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
You don't see the difference between those who are speculating that stats are being padded, compared to cold hard facts presented that MJ deliberately tried to for the sake of recording a trip-dub?

[Hey Yo]

Convincing argument.

His overall '89 postseason run was pretty incredible and I'd say he played at a higher level than he did in the '89 regular season, but that series against Detroit wasn't great at all. He was great one time in the entire series. Good in another game. Underwhelming in the rest, with even a disaster game in between.
Only 8 FGA in the most important game of the series up to that point.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

.
Which one was the bigger overachievement??..Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run or Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 59.8% TS.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 54.9% TS.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 64.6% TS.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 59.8% TS.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 44.9% FG)

[RRR3]

geez the player you stan literally does this all the time and i've seen you call other morons for bringing that up as "stat padding" and using that as a reason for his numbers being overrated

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Calling kblaze a LeBron stan now.


It's official, Mark has gone off the deep end. I shudder to think what he'd be like if LeBron won this year :eek:

[3ball]

He got triple doubles by...deciding to get easy defensive rebounds.


You think a player can just DECIDE to get "easy" defensive rebounds?... He has to compete for those rebounds just like everyone else...

He must GO GET those rebounds, and kudos to any player that puts forth extra effort to get rebounds.





He was flat out passing up easy shots(for him) to dump it off to guys who were often not even ready for it and then getting mad if they didnt score it.


He averaged 32.5 ppg.... So you're saying he should've averaged closer to 40 like in 1987, and passed less?

Okay buddy
.

[sdot_thadon]

Only 8 FGA in the most important game of the series up to that point.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html

:confusedshrug:
Yep, swing game that would have put them in the drivers seat as far as getting to the finals. The one nobody ever seems to want to talk about.....

[3ball]

Overrated season.

That was not the best ball he played.


MJ never carried a team more than he did in 1989.. He took a team that would've been lottery without him, to ECF and 6 games with the champs - that's the best anyone's ever done.

Lebron carried a lottery team to 6 games with the champs this year, but Love and Kyrie were healthy the entire regular season, so he only had to carry a lottery-level team starting mid-playoffs.. This is nowhere NEAR as impressive as doing it the entire season.

And Lebron's playoff stats were worse: 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%, compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

Lebron took the Celtics 7 games in 2008, but he only made 2nd Round, and he shot 35% against the Celtics, while his overall playoff stats (28/8/8 on 41%) were nowhere near MJ's in 1989 (35/7/7 on 51%).

[3ball]

Yep, swing game that would have put them in the drivers seat as far as getting to the finals. The one nobody ever seems to want to talk about.....
MJ never carried a team more than he did in 1989.. He took a team that would've been lottery without him, to ECF and 6 games with the champs - that's the best anyone's ever done.

Lebron carried a lottery team to 6 games with the champs this year, but Love and Kyrie were healthy the entire regular season, so he only had to carry a lottery-level team starting mid-playoffs.. This is nowhere NEAR as impressive as doing it the entire season.

And Lebron's playoff stats were worse: 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%, compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

Lebron took the Celtics 7 games in 2008, but he only made 2nd Round, and he shot 35% against the Celtics, while his overall playoff stats (28/8/8 on 41%) were nowhere near MJ's in 1989 (35/7/7 on 51%).

[sdot_thadon]

MJ never carried a team more than he did in 1989.. He took a team that would've been lottery without him, to ECF and 6 games with the champs - that's the best anyone's ever done.

Lebron carried a lottery team to 6 games with the champs this year, but Love and Kyrie were healthy the entire regular season, so he only had to carry a lottery-level team starting mid-playoffs.. This is nowhere NEAR as impressive as doing it the entire season.

And Lebron's playoff stats were worse: 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%, compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

Lebron took the Celtics 7 games in 2008, but he only made 2nd Round, and he shot 35% against the Celtics, while his overall playoff stats (28/8/8 on 41%) were nowhere near MJ's in 1989 (35/7/7 on 51%).
Let's talk about that game 5 bro.

He only took 8 fga in a swing game that would have gave him a huge chance to reach his 1st finals, cause up to that point he hadn't done anything.

Funny fact is Lebron doesn't have any games with 8 fga in the playoffs for his career. Not the shut out by the spurs, not the elbow/quit game against the celtics, none of the "quit" series against the mavericks in 2011. Strange huh?

You know what lebron did once in the exact same position as mj was, with worse teammates ? He scored 29 of the last 30 against the pistons and pretty much punched his ticket to the finals.....in the palace....at 22 years of age.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Px-jPm_TU

[3ball]

MJ only took 8 fga in a swing game (game 5) that would've gave him huge chance to reach his 1st finals


The champion Pistons had figured the Bulls out by then - the 47-win Bulls were a 6 seed in 1989 and a huge underdog to win the 1st Round, let alone beat the champs in ECF.

Otoh, Lebron's 2007 Cavs won 50 games and were the 2-seed, while Detroit was the 1-seed with 53 wins - so the Cavs trip to the Finals was not an upset.





Funny fact is Lebron doesn't have any games with 8 fga in the playoffs for his career.

(Even his many chokes) Not the shut out by the spurs, not the elbow/quit game against the celtics, none of the "quit" series against the mavericks in 2011. Strange huh?


Funny fact - Lebron has multiple single-digit playoff games - he literally has 8 and 7 point games, even in the Finals!!

Whereas Jordan's Finals-low is 22 pts... It's amazing, because Lebron played that way for an entire series while shooting 36% (2007).

Then Lebron averaged 17.8 ppg in the 2011 Finals - MJ only has 6 total playoff games with less than 20 points (out of 179 games).

:oldlol:





You know what lebron did once in the exact same position as mj was, with worse teammates ?


:roll: :roll:

Lebron's regular season stats in 2007 were nowhere NEAR Jordan's in 1989, yet the Cavs got the 2-seed and won 50 games, which proves the Cavs' supporting cast was superior.





He scored 29 of the last 30 against the pistons and pretty much punched his ticket to the finals.....in the palace....


That was his only good game of the series - he only averaged 25.7 ppg on 44.8% in that series and it came against a FAR worse team than the 1989 champion Bad Boys..

The 2007 Pistons only won 53 games, which is the worst record for a 1-seed of all time.. 4-TIME DPOY Ben Wallace was long gone.. That's not a typo - 4-time DPOY and team MVP... Gone.

Now if Lebron would've scored every single 4th quarter point IN THE FINALS, like MJ did in the Game 6 clincher in 1993, THEN you might have something... But he's not the GOAT, so he can't play that well in the Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE3aiztuECY&t=3m52s... :pimp:





at 22 years of age.


Again, Lebron only averaged 25.7 ppg on 44.8% against Detroit in 2007, and those Pistons were nowhere NEAR a championship caliber team...

In the next series, against a championship team, 22-year old Lebron sucked horrifically.

Here are MJ and Lebron's performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at the age of 22:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/7 on 36%


No comparison
.

[sdot_thadon]

The champion Pistons had figured the Bulls out by then - the 47-win Bulls were a 6 seed in 1989 and a huge underdog to win the 1st Round, let alone beat the champs in ECF.

Otoh, Lebron's 2007 Cavs won 50 games and were the 2-seed, while Detroit was the 1-seed with 53 wins - so the Cavs trip to the Finals was not an upset.



Funny fact - Lebron has multiple single-digit playoff games - he literally has 8 and 7 point games, even in the Finals!!

Whereas Jordan's Finals-low is 22 pts... It's amazing, because Lebron played that way for an entire series while shooting 36% (2007).

Then Lebron averaged 17.8 ppg in the 2011 Finals - MJ only has 6 total playoff games with less than 20 points (out of 179 games).

:oldlol:



:roll: :roll:

Lebron's regular season stats in 2007 were nowhere NEAR Jordan's in 1989, yet the Cavs got the 2-seed and won 50 games, which proves the Cavs' supporting cast was superior.



That was his only good game of the series - he only averaged 25.7 ppg on 44.8% in that series and it came against a FAR worse team than the 1989 champion Bad Boys..

The 2007 Pistons only won 53 games, which is the worst record for a 1-seed of all time.. 4-TIME DPOY Ben Wallace was long gone.. That's not a typo - 4-time DPOY and team MVP... Gone.

Now if Lebron would've scored every single 4th quarter point IN THE FINALS, like MJ did in the Game 6 clincher in 1993, THEN you might have something... But he's not the GOAT, so he can't play that well in the Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE3aiztuECY&t=3m52s... :pimp:



Again, Lebron only averaged 25.7 ppg on 44.8% against Detroit in 2007, and those Pistons were nowhere NEAR a championship caliber team...

In the next series, against a championship team, 22-year old Lebron sucked horrifically.

Here are MJ and Lebron's performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at the age of 22:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/7 on 36%


No comparison
.
Always can tell you get mind****ed by how you change goalposts so quick.

All of that shit you posted and still couldn't even discuss game 5. :biggums:

Again Lebron would never go down taking just 8 shots, he might not make them but even in his worst career moments he didn't quit to such an extreme.

[FKAri]

The champion Pistons had figured the Bulls out by then - the 47-win Bulls were a 6 seed in 1989 and a huge underdog to win the 1st Round, let alone beat the champs in ECF.

Otoh, Lebron's 2007 Cavs won 50 games and were the 2-seed, while Detroit was the 1-seed with 53 wins - so the Cavs trip to the Finals was not an upset.



Funny fact - Lebron has multiple single-digit playoff games - he literally has 8 and 7 point games, even in the Finals!!

Whereas Jordan's Finals-low is 22 pts... It's amazing, because Lebron played that way for an entire series while shooting 36% (2007).

Then Lebron averaged 17.8 ppg in the 2011 Finals - MJ only has 6 total playoff games with less than 20 points (out of 179 games).

:oldlol:



:roll: :roll:

Lebron's regular season stats in 2007 were nowhere NEAR Jordan's in 1989, yet the Cavs got the 2-seed and won 50 games, which proves the Cavs' supporting cast was superior.



That was his only good game of the series - he only averaged 25.7 ppg on 44.8% in that series and it came against a FAR worse team than the 1989 champion Bad Boys..

The 2007 Pistons only won 53 games, which is the worst record for a 1-seed of all time.. 4-TIME DPOY Ben Wallace was long gone.. That's not a typo - 4-time DPOY and team MVP... Gone.

Now if Lebron would've scored every single 4th quarter point IN THE FINALS, like MJ did in the Game 6 clincher in 1993, THEN you might have something... But he's not the GOAT, so he can't play that well in the Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE3aiztuECY&t=3m52s... :pimp:



Again, Lebron only averaged 25.7 ppg on 44.8% against Detroit in 2007, and those Pistons were nowhere NEAR a championship caliber team...

In the next series, against a championship team, 22-year old Lebron sucked horrifically.

Here are MJ and Lebron's performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at the age of 22:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs:. 22/7/7 on 36%


No comparison
.

Are you actualy trying to suggest Jordan is better than Lebron? GTFOH nigguh :roll: :roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Are you actualy trying to suggest Jordan is better than Lebron? GTFOH nigguh :roll: :roll:
Nope he trying like hell not to discuss game 5 though.

[Pointguard]

Truth be told...coming from someone who watched those games....some in person...

Overrated season. Not in comparison to most. By but his standards. He had crazy assist numbers because he decided to go get them. He got triple doubles by...deciding to get easy defensive rebounds. He played better to me when his stats were worse in the early 90s.

He was flat out passing up easy shots(for him) to dump it off to guys who were often not even ready for it and then getting mad if they didnt score it.

That was not the best ball he played. Just the best numbers he put up.
This.

It seemed like a weird year to me. Like his play didn't have the purpose it had in the other years. After loving his play and aesthetics something seemed absent that year. Still obviously great but no biggie if he doesn't get MVP when in other years it seemed atrocious.

[dontgetchoked]

Let's talk about that game 5 bro.

He only took 8 fga in a swing game that would have gave him a huge chance to reach his 1st finals, cause up to that point he hadn't done anything.

Funny fact is Lebron doesn't have any games with 8 fga in the playoffs for his career. Not the shut out by the spurs, not the elbow/quit game against the celtics, none of the "quit" series against the mavericks in 2011. Strange huh?

You know what lebron did once in the exact same position as mj was, with worse teammates ? He scored 29 of the last 30 against the pistons and pretty much punched his ticket to the finals.....in the palace....at 22 years of age.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Px-jPm_TU

8 fga with 11 freethrow attempts and 9 assists, thats still good number of possessions. Not enough for the GOAT but its pretty pathetic that this is what you have to use to try to throw shade at the goat.

are you arguing that lebron had a better playoff performance? well its easy to chose one bad game from jordan and a good one from lebron, thats ****ing stupid though. you can do this with literally any two players in NBA history.

you say he is ignoring game five, which he is, but you are ignoring the facts he posted. if you want to go down the route comparing lebron to jordan, go ahead. you can be a fool if you want to. 3ball posts a bunch of irrelevant shit, but he also posts facts, and backs them up with stats. you should stick to comparing lebron to kobe, they are peers. neither of those guys can touch MJ though.

you say lebron has 0 games with 8 fga in his entire playoff carreer, but check this out:



Funny fact - Lebron has multiple single-digit playoff games - he literally has 8 and 7 point games, even in the Finals!!

Whereas Jordan's Finals-low is 22 pts... It's amazing, because Lebron played that way for an entire series while shooting 36% (2007).

Then Lebron averaged 17.8 ppg in the 2011 Finals - MJ only has 6 total playoff games with less than 20 points (out of 179 games).

:oldlol:



so lebron has single digit scoring games without ever taking as few as 8 fga in a playoff game... that is pretty bad. but at the same time, so the **** what? just stop arguing with 3ball. you will get nowhere. as crazy as dude seems, he isnt wrong. jordan is the goat.

[3ball]

He had crazy assist numbers because he decided to go get them.



It was his JOB to get assists for the last 24 games of the season because he was the team's starting point guard for that stretch.

He averaged 11 assists for those games, which increased his overall average from 6.9 to 8.0... You're knocking him for doing his job?.. You're saying he should get LESS assists as the PG?

He was no different than any high-assist point guard (Nash, CP3, Rondo, etc.), who TRY to accumulate assists, because that's their job.

During MJ's point guard stretch, he still averaged 30 ppg along with the 11 assists, so it's not like he wasn't scoring enough.. His stats were 30/9/11 on 50% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) while playing point guard (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/).

[Hey Yo]

Originally Posted by Hey Yo

Overrated season.

That was not the best ball he played.
I never said the above, 3ball. You put my name with what someone else posted.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Calling kblaze a LeBron stan now.


It's official, Mark has gone off the deep end. I shudder to think what he'd be like if LeBron won this year :eek:

get off my dick you mental midget

its just funny seeing him get on people's ass for calling lebron a stat padder ( when those people specifically bring up his rebounds) and then he turns around and claims Jordan was stat padding & the numbers aren't as good as they seem..

he acts like this is a fuccing sin to say about lebron, but ok..

.. but what should we expect from him after his Chris Paul rants of "results don't matter doe"..

[Legends66NBA7]

geez the player you stan literally does this all the time and i've seen you call other morons for bringing that up as "stat padding" and using that as a reason for his numbers being overrated

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

KBlaze isn't a LeBron stan. He's even gone on record to say he hates the guy (or more to that) because of one his real life friends.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Don't try to act like Kblaze isn't just as biased as everybody else on here..

dude is straight up ridiculous at time..

here he is trying to downplay Kobe's 40ppg month (reminder only 2 players in NBA history have done this)


Let me know when 40ppg means anything. Our numbers system being based on multiples of ten doesnt mean 40 is a lot more impressive..

Kobe took 29.6 a game in his 40ppg month.

Durant is less impressive because he never took 45 shots? Or 49?


so he just straight up lies and intentionally is deceitful.. Kobe has a 40 ppg month where he didn't take 45 or 49 shots..

yet he's been on ISH defending Lebron's 34 shots per game to get 35 points as some marvelous performance :confusedshrug:


then goes on to say this gem later when talking about Kobe


He has either not been winning or been winning on teams he didnt need to do that much to make into winners.

like are you fuccing serious with this? I guess the 08-10 Lakers without Kobe are contenders... since Kobe didn't have to do much to make them into contenders..

he literally goes on to claim that most of Kobe's teams would have been solid without him..lol

and just to put the icing on the cake, and to let you know his double standard is real..


Cant give it to Kobe playing with Gasol/Bynum as he wins 56-60 games..

:wtf:

Bynum on average played less than 50 games per season from 08-10..

and the lakers won 57, 65, 57 games per season in a brutal conference (08 and 10 featured all 8 WC playoff teams with 50+ wins)

So Kobe shouldn't get MVP because he plays with Bynum(wtf) & Gasol while finishing 1st in the WC all three years..

yet 2012 Lebron deserves MVP even though he plays with Bosh & Wade and finished 2nd in the east one year according to him..

GTFO

[Legends66NBA7]

Don't try to act like Kblaze isn't just as biased as everybody else on here

Don't try and deflect on me.

I didn't say anything about bias. Yeah, no shit were all biased to an extent. I'm well we're all fans here. I said he wasn't a LeBron stan because he flat out said that I his own posts a d that it was because of his real life friend who annoys him about LeBron all the time.

The rest to the crap, incredibly irrelevant. Shows me some actual astronomical evidence and links in context showing someone is a stan.

[sdot_thadon]

8 fga with 11 freethrow attempts and 9 assists, thats still good number of possessions. Not enough for the GOAT but its pretty pathetic that this is what you have to use to try to throw shade at the goat.

are you arguing that lebron had a better playoff performance? well its easy to chose one bad game from jordan and a good one from lebron, thats ****ing stupid though. you can do this with literally any two players in NBA history.

you say he is ignoring game five, which he is, but you are ignoring the facts he posted. if you want to go down the route comparing lebron to jordan, go ahead. you can be a fool if you want to. 3ball posts a bunch of irrelevant shit, but he also posts facts, and backs them up with stats. you should stick to comparing lebron to kobe, they are peers. neither of those guys can touch MJ though.

you say lebron has 0 games with 8 fga in his entire playoff carreer, but check this out:




so lebron has single digit scoring games without ever taking as few as 8 fga in a playoff game... that is pretty bad. but at the same time, so the **** what? just stop arguing with 3ball. you will get nowhere. as crazy as dude seems, he isnt wrong. jordan is the goat.
1st of all since when is it shade to bring up a bad game, isn't it done here on a minutely basis? If its shade at anyone it's at 3ball and his shit logic, sorry if you can't read between the lines. Then you quote 3bum to tell me what he said is right, well what did I post that wasn't factual and correct. Please point out any lie I put in the above post. If not be on your way.:coleman:

[Derivative]

curry

[dubeta]

Adjust for pace and MJs averages in 1989 is 25/5/5

[OldSchoolBBall]

Adjust for pace and MJs averages in 1989 is 25/5/5

Err, no. Pace this season is 95.5 and those Bulls played at a 97.0 pace, or just one extra possession per game. His averages adjusted for today's pace are still 32/8/8. Try again.

[DonDadda59]

Err, no. Pace this season is 95.5 and those Bulls played at a 97.0 pace, or just one extra possession per game. His averages adjusted for today's pace are still 32/8/8. Try again.

Exactly. The league right now is playing at the fastest pace, scoring the most points since the '93 Season. Teams are getting like 5-6 more possessions than teams were during the 2nd 3-peat for the Bulls.

'16 Warriors Pace: 99.6
'96 Bulls Pace: 91.1

What's Chef Curry's inflated pace stats translate to in '96 numbers? :confusedshrug:

[Akhenaten]

Kblaze guy was posting straight nonsense in this thread

[Smoke117]

That was his stat padding season....I think 90 is his peak season.

[3ba11]

.
.
COMPARING THE EASTERN RUNS OF 01' IVERSON, 07' LEBRON AND 89' JORDAN





BURDEN


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2024/szZqwK.gif





COMP


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2024/xkXQ8W.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2024/ZcoxpA.gif





CAST


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-13-2024/oInjmi.gif




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n50O5nJ6lcM

[Phoenix]

Out of curiosity, how does one go about finding threads where the last post was nearly 10 years ago? Because I've tried to find legacy threads before and get like an error message.

Also, what happened to Smoke? Did he make it through covid?

[Lebron23]

Out of curiosity, how does one go about finding threads where the last post was nearly 10 years ago? Because I've tried to find legacy threads before and get like an error message.

Also, what happened to Smoke? Did he make it through covid?

Smoke probably died of liver cirrhosis

[3ba11]

Out of curiosity, how does one go about finding threads where the last post was nearly 10 years ago? Because I've tried to find legacy threads before and get like an error message.

Also, what happened to Smoke? Did he make it through covid?


All good questions.. I usually type in the title of the thread that I want to find and then the address insidehoops.com

I think I typed in "89' MJ 07' lebron insidehoops.com" and a bunch of threads came up, and then I chose this one

[SouBeachTalents]

Another good one here

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history

[3ba11]

Another good one here

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history


And just a 5 months later I conceded that he's the only player to prove me wrong and made him top 5 before anyone else ever did:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499177-My-top-10-(supercedes-all-previous-rankings-for-reference-purposes-going-forward)

[Phoenix]

And just a 5 months later I conceded that he's the only player to prove me wrong and made him top 5 before anyone else ever did:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499177-My-top-10-(supercedes-all-previous-rankings-for-reference-purposes-going-forward)

You also have Kawhi in your top 10. Has he done anything in like, 5 years, to justify this position? Also, if memory serves you put 'elite shooters' over bird-fed post players, so why is Duncan ranked over him? Why is Russell 4th when you dismiss '2pointer' basketball and he was at best an average offensive player, given your heavy preference for elite scorers who don't clog up an offense? By your logic a number of '3 pointer' basketball greats should be over him, Curry for example.

[3ba11]

You also have Kawhi in your top 10. Has he done anything in like, 5 years, to justify this position? Also, if memory serves you put 'elite shooters' over bird-fed post players, so why is Duncan ranked over him? Why is Russell 4th when you dismiss '2pointer' basketball and he was at best an average offensive player, given your heavy preference for elite scorers who don't clog up an offense? By your logic a number of '3 pointer' basketball greats should be over him, Curry for example.


That was my first iteration of the new rankings that included Curry - they quickly changed to exclude Giannis and Kawhi from the top 10.

mj, kobe, curry, bird, russell, wilt, kareem, duncan, shaq, jokic, magic, lebron, oscar

jumpshooters are ahead of the bigs, who are ahead of the ball-dominators, based on the skillisets that produced the best teams and needed the least to win..

we know that high-scoring ball-dominators produce the worst teams because they have a bunch of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which lowers their assists and prevents a high-assist team... Without the ability to have the best ball movement, we know ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties).

[bizil]

When people use the Bron is the BETTER ALL AROUND PLAYER BY FAR mindset against MJ I LMAO!!! Lebron's POSITIONAL VERSATILITY due to his size is way ahead of MJ. Because peak Bron could play AND defend four and at times five positions. But in terms of points-dimes-rebounds as a package, MJ PROVED he could get 30-8-8 AND provide world class defense on top of it. PLUS MJ could LEGIT PLAY AND DEFEND PG, SG, and SF at great levels.

So while I think Bron is a better all around player than MJ, it's MAINLY DUE TO the postional versatility and pass first floor general nature he has. WHILE still being able to dominate scoring. If Pip NEVER CAME of age back in the day, MJ would have put up MORE 30-8-8 type of seasons.

For the Bulls to start competing BEFORE Pip came of age, that's where he was taking his game to. But it was obviously Pip's coming of age that put the Bulls over the top. He could be the DOMINANT FLOOR GAME GUY (dimes-boards-defense as a package) while MJ could save energy to focus on dominating scoring. Before MJ had to be the best scorer AND floor game guy for the Bulls to compete. When I hear MJ was the killer while Bron was the all around player that let's me know they don't know hoops. Or they are lying to themselves. MJ was the score first total package while Bron was the pass first-floor general total package.

[dankok8]

As crazy as it sounds, 1989 might have been Jordan's best year even though he didn't win the title. The playoff run was just obscene with how many great games he had. Not to mention he was really strong defensively too with that high-revving motor.

[Street Hunger]

As crazy as it sounds, 1989 might have been Jordan's best year even though he didn't win the title. The playoff run was just obscene with how many great games he had. Not to mention he was really strong defensively too with that high-revving motor.

Good point.

What do you think was his possible best year?

[dankok8]

Good point.

What do you think was his possible best year?

I think any year from 1988 to 1993 can have a case. Obviously the default choice is 1991.

[Street Hunger]

I think any year from 1988 to 1993 can have a case. Obviously the default choice is 1991.

Whoops. I actually misread what you said, and that's why my question came out weird. Anyway, I hear you. And yeah, that makes sense.

[Phoenix]

That was my first iteration of the new rankings that included Curry - they quickly changed to exclude Giannis and Kawhi from the top 10.

mj, kobe, curry, bird, russell, wilt, kareem, duncan, shaq, jokic, magic, lebron, oscar

jumpshooters are ahead of the bigs, who are ahead of the ball-dominators, based on the skillisets that produced the best teams and needed the least to win..

we know that high-scoring ball-dominators produce the worst teams because they have a bunch of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which lowers their assists and prevents a high-assist team... Without the ability to have the best ball movement, we know ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties).

So by your own logic, Jokic should be ahead of Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq and Duncan as he's the only non bird-fed center on the list, and won with less compared to those guys, inarguably in a few cases. Again, your logic...

[Phoenix]

For the Bulls to start competing BEFORE Pip came of age, that's where he was taking his game to. But it was obviously Pip's coming of age that put the Bulls over the top. He could be the DOMINANT FLOOR GAME GUY (dimes-boards-defense as a package) while MJ could save energy to focus on dominating scoring. Before MJ had to be the best scorer AND floor game guy for the Bulls to compete. When I hear MJ was the killer while Bron was the all around player that let's me know they don't know hoops. Or they are lying to themselves. MJ was the score first total package while Bron was the pass first-floor general total package.

The triangle offense by its very nature suppresses individual assist numbers. Pips development into the quarterback of that offense effectively allowed MJ to conserve energy and be a play finisher, allow the team to develop an offensive rhythm and he could work his offense within that flow. Your are correct in that without Pippens ascension of playing within the confines of the triangle, it's likely his 89 statline would have been a standard through his prime.

[Micku]

I think any year from 1988 to 1993 can have a case. Obviously the default choice is 1991.

I think MJ considers his 1991 his best year.

But I think you won't go wrong with 88-93 and 89 was a great year as you said. That playoff run was crazy.

[Phoenix]

I think I would go with 91 MJ if you include the playoffs ( which one probably should). MJ's 89 year was crazy but you could point to scoring only 18 on 8 shots against Detroit in a pivotal game 5, losing the game as an under-performance at the worst time. In the 91 playoffs, MJ's lowest scoring game was 'only' 22 points and overall, out of 17 games only 5 of them he shot under 50%.

[dankok8]

I think I would go with 91 MJ if you include the playoffs ( which one probably should). MJ's 89 year was crazy but you could point to scoring only 18 on 8 shots against Detroit in a pivotal game 5, losing the game as an under-performance at the worst time. In the 91 playoffs, MJ's lowest scoring game was 'only' 22 points and overall, out of 17 games only 5 of them he shot under 50%.

In 1991, MJ didn't even need to score a lot because the Bulls were pasting their opponents. In 1989, he had to carry the team on his back so naturally that scoring volume was much higher. Honestly I struggle to compare the two runs because of such different circumstances. As for Game 5 of the Detroit series, I tracked that game and found that he could have had about 20 assists if his teammates made open shots. He was doubled and tripled a ton and made the right play a lot but the Bulls were just super cold shooting the ball. MJ also played really good defense on Isiah forcing him into 3/10 shooting and 3 turnovers while committing only 1 shooting foul. 1989 ECF is one of his better defensive series. All in all, he did underperform in Game 5 but not badly IMO.

[Phoenix]

In 1991, MJ didn't even need to score a lot because the Bulls were pasting their opponents. In 1989, he had to carry the team on his back so naturally that scoring volume was much higher. Honestly I struggle to compare the two runs because of such different circumstances. As for Game 5 of the Detroit series, I tracked that game and found that he could have had about 20 assists if his teammates made open shots. He was doubled and tripled a ton and made the right play a lot but the Bulls were just super cold shooting the ball. MJ also played really good defense on Isiah forcing him into 3/10 shooting and 3 turnovers while committing only 1 shooting foul. 1989 ECF is one of his better defensive series. All in all, he did underperform in Game 5 but not badly IMO.

Maybe the circumstances dictated that MJ carried a bigger load in 89, but he was a better player in 91. More polished, jumper a bit more defined, had a stronger body due to gymwork from the Pistons beating on him. So I guess it's two different questions here, which season was better vs which version of MJ is better? I think 91 MJ finds a way to have a better scoring out-put in that game 5, on top of his defensive efforts.

[SouBeachTalents]

I couldn't call 1989 Jordan's best year because he did see quite a dip in play over the final 3 games of that Pistons series after taking a 2-1 lead.

A very pedestrian 23/2/4 on 5/15 in Game 4
The 18 points on 8 shots as previously alluded to in Game 5
Then while he did put up 32/13 in Game 6, he also shot a Shaq like 5/12 from the line and had 8 turnovers

1991 the dude had one off performance the entire playoffs, Game 1 against the Pistons where he had 22/3/6 on 6/15 with 6 TO's. Outside of that, he genuinely had a great game every single time the rest of the way, and like dankok said, he could've scored even more if the Bulls weren't out there destroying their opponents.

For me, it's not just because he won the title that year, it's because I felt like his level of play was consistently better in '91.

[Phoenix]

I couldn't call 1989 Jordan's best year because he did see quite a dip in play over the final 3 games of that Pistons series after taking a 2-1 lead.

A very pedestrian 23/2/4 on 5/15 in Game 4
The 18 points on 8 shots as previously alluded to in Game 5
Then while he did put up 32/13 in Game 6, he also shot a Shaq like 5/12 from the line and had 8 turnovers

1991 the dude had one off performance the entire playoffs, Game 1 against the Pistons where he had 22/3/6 on 6/15 with 6 TO's. Outside of that, he genuinely had a great game every single time the rest of the way, and like dankok said, he could've scored even more if the Bulls weren't out there destroying their opponents.

For me, it's not just because he won the title that year, it's because I felt like his level of play was consistently better in '91.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, by 91 his floor for what was a 'bad game' had risen. I feel like Jordan's jumpshot was still being fine-tined in 89, so the Pistons could funnel him towards the basket to get mauled and he had zero spacing around him. 91 MJ was a much better shooter( the mechanics of his jumper were even different) so you had to equally respect him for the drive or jumper. You put 91 MJ on the 89 Bulls and Detroit will still win but they'd probably go the distance.

[dankok8]

Mostly agree with what you guys are saying.

However...

I also think 89 Jordan has some advantages like a slightly quicker first step as well as a higher motor so he could score a ton of points and play defense on someone like Isiah.

With a better team in 1989, I think he could have produced similarly as he did in 1991 and gotten the same team result. If MJ did improve, it's very marginally IMO. The team improved a lot over those 2 years though. The guys around him making shots literally opened everything up. In 1989, the Pistons just loaded up on him and there was no release valve. I honestly don't think there was anything he could have done short of maybe getting white hot from the perimeter like he did in Game 3. You can't solve a defense that swarms you 20 feet from the basket and when you pass to an open teammate, that teammate misses...

[Phoenix]

Mostly agree with what you guys are saying.

However...

I also think 89 Jordan has some advantages like a slightly quicker first step.....
...

Yes, but I think teams like the Pistons( and then the Knicks) were built to negate those advantages. Trading a half step in speed for an improved jumpshot and strength to withstand physical contact is what I feel ultimately makes him better in 91. And yes, having a better team around certainly helped as well ..

[dankok8]

Yes, but I think teams like the Pistons( and then the Knicks) were built to negate those advantages. Trading a half step in speed for an improved jumpshot and strength to withstand physical contact is what I feel ultimately makes him better in 91. And yes, having a better team around certainly helped as well ..

Those defenses were built to stop you period not just stop drives. They took away open shots and rotated as well as just about any team ever. Watching Jordan in 1991, he didn't beat the Pistons by scoring against contact or scoring over double teams. He beat them by passing out and his teammates were actually making shots which loosened the defense so he could score more efficiently when he did go for it. I really believe that give 1989 Jordan the 1991 supporting cast and he wins. The gap in the quality of the supporting cast is just huge between those two years.

[Phoenix]

Those defenses were built to stop you period not just stop drives. They took away open shots and rotated as well as just about any team ever. Watching Jordan in 1991, he didn't beat the Pistons by scoring against contact or scoring over double teams. He beat them by passing out and his teammates were actually making shots which loosened the defense so he could score more efficiently when he did go for it. I really believe that give 1989 Jordan the 1991 supporting cast and he wins. The gap in the quality of the supporting cast is just huge between those two years.
Yes they were but if you look at, foe example, the 54 MJ hung on the Knicks in 93 it was mostly jumpshoots. Unless you think 89 MJ was capable of duplicating that kind of shooting performance, it doesn't matter if he was hair slower by 93.

Also, yes if you give 89 Jordan the 91 supporting cast they would likely win but that wasn't my example. I said 91 MJ on the 89 Bulls would probably take the 89 Pistons 7 games and lose. Two different scenarios...

Anyways we're getting into the weeds here. My contention is that 91 MJ was a better player. A hair slower but a better shooter, better game management, higher IQ, stronger. I didn't say he was much better than 89, it was marginal....but he was better overall.

[dankok8]

Yes they were but if you look at, foe example, the 54 MJ hung on the Knicks in 93 it was mostly jumpshoots. Unless you think 89 MJ was capable of duplicating that kind of shooting performance, it doesn't matter if he was hair slower by 93.

Also, yes if you give 89 Jordan the 91 supporting cast they would likely win but that wasn't my example. I said 91 MJ on the 89 Bulls would probably take the 89 Pistons 7 games and lose. Two different scenarios...

Anyways we're getting into the weeds here. My contention is that 91 MJ was a better player. A hair slower but a better shooter, better game management, higher IQ, stronger. I didn't say he was much better than 89, it was marginal....but he was better overall.

89 Jordan was just as good of a midrange shooter as in later years. But in later years especially from 92 onwards he just began relying on it more and more because he couldn't get to the rim at will. He shot way more of them but didn't really make them at a higher efficiency. And I'm not just pulling it out of my arse LOL. We have complete playoff shooting data for MJ. I actually plan to compile and post it in the coming days because I tracked the postseasons that Dipper13 didn't so 85, 86, 87, 93, 95, 96.

So yes 89 Jordan could absolutely go off against the Pistons. He did in Game 3!

I honestly don't think 91 Jordan on 89 Bulls takes them any further. Agree to disagree I guess.

However, another point worth making is I think even the 91 Bulls would have a fair bit of trouble with the 89 Pistons. They would win but I think the series goes 6 games.

[Phoenix]

89 Jordan was just as good of a midrange shooter as in later years. But in later years especially from 92 onwards he just began relying on it more and more because he couldn't get to the rim at will. He shot way more of them but didn't really make them at a higher efficiency. And I'm not just pulling it out of my arse LOL. We have complete playoff shooting data for MJ. I actually plan to compile and post it in the coming days because I tracked the postseasons that Dipper13 didn't so 85, 86, 87, 93, 95, 96.

So yes 89 Jordan could absolutely go off against the Pistons. He did in Game 3!

I honestly don't think 91 Jordan on 89 Bulls takes them any further. Agree to disagree I guess.

However, another point worth making is I think even the 91 Bulls would have a fair bit of trouble with the 89 Pistons. They would win but I think the series goes 6 games.

Maybe we were watching different things. This is the first time I've heard anyone say MJ was as good a midrange shooter in 89 as in later years. 97 Jordan, for example, shot like 49% on 1500 midrange attempts. Are you saying 89 MJ was that level? What about 3point shooting? He was never Steph Curry from 3 but he was a better 3point shooter by 93, better % on more attempts than he was in 89. Generally speaking, barring injury or some other odd occurrence most great players were probably better at 27/28 than 25/26. They would still have most of their athleticism but experience and poise is better, I think your argument is too based literally on numbers which I know you like to emphasis in these conversations. 91 MJ was simply a more refined player. Its like me comparing 09 Lebron and 2012 Lebron. 09 Lebron was an absolute unit athletically, but by 2012 he was a better shooter, mentally stronger, and had been in enough battles to have a better sense of game management and timing instead of relying on raw gifts and talent.

My guess is 91 Jordan takes the 89 Pistons to seven. 89 Jordan would take the 91 Bulls to the title but I don't think the Bulls are going 15-2 or whatever they did. I don't know if 89 Jordan gets the Bulls past the 93 Knicks. 93 MJ struggled that series outside of that 54 point outing and 89 MJ would have had a hard time with the Knicks physicality( like the Pistons). It's just my guesses off how I see each player playing against those teams based on what they were at those given points. It's nothing that can be proven so yes, that's an agree to disagree thing.

[dankok8]

Maybe we were watching different things. This is the first time I've heard anyone say MJ was as good a midrange shooter in 89 as in later years. 97 Jordan, for example, shot like 49% on 1500 midrange attempts. Are you saying 89 MJ was that level? What about 3point shooting? He was never Steph Curry from 3 but he was a better 3point shooter by 93, better % on more attempts than he was in 89. Generally speaking, barring injury or some other odd occurrence most great players were probably better at 27/28 than 25/26. They would still have most of their athleticism but experience and poise is better, I think your argument is too based literally on numbers which I know you like to emphasis in these conversations. 91 MJ was simply a more refined player. Its like me comparing 09 Lebron and 2012 Lebron. 09 Lebron was an absolute unit athletically, but by 2012 he was a better shooter, mentally stronger, and had been in enough battles to have a better sense of game management and timing instead of relying on raw gifts and talent.

My guess is 91 Jordan takes the 89 Pistons to seven. 89 Jordan would take the 91 Bulls to the title but I don't think the Bulls are going 15-2 or whatever they did. I don't know if 89 Jordan gets the Bulls past the 93 Knicks. 93 MJ struggled that series outside of that 54 point outing and 89 MJ would have had a hard time with the Knicks physicality( like the Pistons). It's just my guesses off how I see each player playing against those teams based on what they were at those given points. It's nothing that can be proven so yes, that's an agree to disagree thing.

Yes players generally peak at age 27/28 and that's why I said I can see MJ marginally improving. But I don't think that improvement explains his performance in the 1989 series. The 3pt shooting is one of those areas that did improve but like I said, some areas he actually declined in. Basically I don't think 89 Jordan does any worse in 91 Jordan's shoes or vice versa. As you said, it can't be proven at the end of the day.

With the Lebron example, a lot of people will stick with 09 being the peak version. I'm definitely not one of them but I've seen it plenty.

[Phoenix]

Yes players generally peak at age 27/28 and that's why I said I can see MJ marginally improving. But I don't think that improvement explains his performance in the 1989 series. The 3pt shooting is one of those areas that did improve but like I said, some areas he actually declined in. Basically I don't think 89 Jordan does any worse in 91 Jordan's shoes or vice versa. As you said, it can't be proven at the end of the day.
.

Yes but again, were the areas he declined in( his hyper-athleticism) compensated for by gains in other areas? I would say yes and again, I'm not here arguing there was some major difference. I think we agree that the difference was marginal but those little differences can matter. Even something like 91 MJ trusting his teammates moreso( yes, his team was better in 91 so I guess that makes it easier to trust) can result in approaching a particularly moment in a game differently. It can be less about loss or gain in certain abilities and how key moments are managed by an older MJ with more experience but who still retained like 90% of his 90s athleticism.That would be similar to the difference with 2009 and 2012 Lebron IMO.

[3ba11]

Why is it that when Lebron has 1 all-star or none, he's completely excused from analysis - he can be lottery or 1st Round loser, but when MJ drags nothing to the ECF with better numbers than anyone ever had, there's all this nitpicking like he should've done more or it isn't far better than anything Lebron ever did.. Lebron was always lottery or 1st Round loser with casts BETTER than the 89' Bulls in 05', 19' and 21-25', or he lost as -700 favorite in 09' and 10'' WITH BETTER CASTS THAN 89' BULLS, or 06' and 08' 2nd Round, with better casts

[Lebron23]

Against Weak Sauce competition.