The Clippers should move Blake Griffin..

[TheMarkMadsen]

This current Clippers team isn't winning any championships with its current roster. They've got some solid pieces and one of if not the best point guard in the entire league and they should focus on building around Chris Paul, and IMO Blake is not the guy to do it.

Grffin is a good, exciting young player but you are not going to be winning any championships with him as your second option. Griffin is not a guy you can depend on for points in the paint during crucial moments or a guy you can rely on to get his and create his own shot in the post during the playoffs. His stats are nice but they can be misleading, they are empty in a lot of aspects & Blake Griffin's sucess does not always equal Clippers sucess aswell.

Also, Blake Griffins trade value is probrably one of the highest in the league due to his outstanding popularity. The value that he actually brings to a team isn't ANYWHERE near his current market value, this would allow the Clippers to bring in an outstanding amount of pieces.

I'm sure there are a number of teams that would be willing to overpay for BG & give up a lot of talent in order to get him. He will put buts in the seats, i could see a team like Atlanta jumping all over a chance to bring in BG.

The Clippers would be better suited to bring in a guy who fits in better with CP3 & is also defensive minded. J Smoove comes to mind, and with Griffins trade value the Clippers would easily be able to attain a draft pick and some other solid role players to place around Cp3 if they were to trade Griffin.

[STATUTORY]

Clips probably more concerned with selling tix and putting out an exciting product than winning championships

and for that end Blake Griffin is perfect

[Clippersfan86]

Blake Griffin is the franchise player so no he shouldn't be traded. He's slowly getting more aggressive again and last night put up 22, 11 and 7 in limited minutes. Nobody knows how good he will be so it would be stupid to trade him. If I had to choose between Griffin and CP3 I'd hold onto Griffin due to age, him being maxed for 6 more years, upside and him being a big. Not to mention he's more profitable for the franchise as you guys pointed out.

If the Clippers are going to trade one of their stars I'd be looking to move CP3 first if by the all star break he's still this passive and not using Blake enough. I mean this business of Blake scoring 20 in the first half of games and getting almost no touches in the 2nd half? That's all on CP3.

This was supposed to be one of the most potent PNR duos in NBA history yet they don't even run PNR anymore. I bet you Rondo, Irving or Rose would kill to play with Blake Griffin and the other pieces we have. Not sure why CP3 isn't meshing with Blake but I feel like he's trying way too hard to turn Blake into his old running mate David West and making him shoot jumpers... instead of feeding him on lobs and dunks.

[flipogb]

Griffin was better when he was allowed to dribble the ball anywhere on the court (what I mean is before CP3)

[Clippersfan86]

Griffin was better when he was allowed to dribble the ball anywhere on the court (what I mean is before CP3)

I think CP3's ball dominance isn't a good fit for a big like Griffin who's good at handling the ball. Basically Griffin's options are catch and shoot, or catch in paint and immediately create with 3-4 seconds left on the clock because CP3 holds the ball for 20+ seconds most the time.

Like I said... CP3 is trying to turn Blake into David West 2.0 and that's not his game.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Blake Griffin is the franchise player so no he shouldn't be traded. He's slowly getting more aggressive again and last night put up 22, 11 and 7 in limited minutes. Nobody knows how good he will be so it would be stupid to trade him. If I had to choose between Griffin and CP3 I'd hold onto Griffin due to age, him being maxed for 6 more years, upside and him being a big. Not to mention he's more profitable for the franchise as you guys pointed out.

If the Clippers are going to trade one of their stars I'd be looking to move CP3 first if by the all star break he's still this passive and not using Blake enough. I mean this business of Blake scoring 20 in the first half of games and getting almost no touches in the 2nd half? That's all on CP3.

This was supposed to be one of the most potent PNR duos in NBA history yet they don't even run PNR anymore. I bet you Rondo, Irving or Rose would kill to play with Blake Griffin and the other pieces we have. Not sure why CP3 isn't meshing with Blake but I feel like he's trying way too hard to turn Blake into his old running mate David West and making him shoot jumpers... instead of feeding him on lobs and dunks.

:biggums:

Chris Paul is a proven All star / All pro in the league, that's a rare thing and you don't choose an unproven big man who's declined in each of his 3 years in the league over that.

I'm not sure there 1 GM who would take Griffin over CP3, i'm positive there is not. cp3 has proven time & time again that he can lead a team into the playoffs, Griffin has not.

And i don't think anybody ever really expected this to be one of the best pnr combo's of all time? Griffin had only 1 year of playing before cp3 came to town.. it's not like he was some proven top 10 player in the league by that time.

Besides, if you're a free agent who isn't a point guard are you really going to choose to go to the team led by Blake Griffin or the team led by Chris Paul?

I wonder if we poll'd Lebron, Durant, Kobe, and the other top players if they'd rather play with Paul or Griffin..

CP3 can attract other free agents, cp3 is a proven player in this league and the best pg playing right now, you act like bringing in a lesser player to play pg will make the clippers better?

Blake Grffin is the one who needs to adjust his game for cp3 b/c guess what? when BG was doing his own thing & getting stats the clippers were a joke, but with cp3 at the point they clips are a legit playoff team. Cp3 is a proven all NBA player, he's the best pg in the league and if he thinks ignoring Griffin is what is best for the team, then he's probrably right.

[Bigsmoke]

Blake only been hooping for 2 years. U think he was going to lead The Clippers to the championship by then??

And there are plenty of GMs that would pick Blake over paul since Blake is a rare player and his defense improved big time from last year.... At least to me.

Every team in the NBA has a great PG it seems. Its not like CP3 won 3 championships already.bl

[Clippersfan86]

:biggums:

Chris Paul is a proven All star / All pro in the league, that's a rare thing and you don't choose an unproven big man who's declined in each of his 3 years in the league over that.

I'm not sure there 1 GM who would take Griffin over CP3, i'm positive there is not. cp3 has proven time & time again that he can lead a team into the playoffs, Griffin has not.

I already gave the reasons. Griffin has missed 0 games in his career outside of that initial lost season. CP3 misses 10+ games most seasons and his conditioning level isn't going to change that any time soon.

I think Griffin is one of the most untradable pieces in the NBA due to age, marketability, upside, current production and would be more valued than CP3 for those reasons. CP3 is clearly the better player but due to age, health, contract situation etc I disagree that every GM would take him.

BTW it's a HUGE myth and blatant lie to say Blake has declined all 3 years.

Year 1: Had far less talent around him. Took way more shots, got way more touches and got way more time handling the ball. Was a horrendous defender.

Year 2: Added a top 5 player to his team and tons of other talent. His shot attempts, touches, usage rates were all way down but his raw numbers weren't much worse. His defense went from terrible to solid, his shot improved and his post game became a bit more refined. His efficiency and advanced stats were much improved. PER jumped a full 2 points and he led the NBA in on and off court differential (better than CP3).

Year 3: He started off the year banged up with 2-3 injuries but is finally starting to come around. He's now had 3 20/10/5 games in low minutes and his defense is tremendously improved, shot from midrange tremendously improved and free throw shooting is a career high right now. In otherwords skill set wise Griffin is easily better this year than his previous two years but due to less shots, being a bit more passive and not much cohesion with CP3 it would appear to the average onlooker that he's declined.

[Asiantastic]

CP3 is the main reason why this team is good. Just look at the Clippers' record with CP3 as the main man, as opposed to Griffin as the main man.

CP3 makes things happen. Griffin doesn't.

You just don't like CP3 cause he's taking minutes from your beloved Bledsoe.

[Clippersfan86]

Blake only been hooping for 2 years. U think he was going to lead The Clippers to the championship by then?? bl

Exactly. Makes me laugh when people say things like "He proved he couldn't do it by himself and needed a star to carry him". So he got his one rookie year where the team had tons of new players, was decimated by injuries... to turn the franchise around before being labeled a low impact, overrated player? The team got CP3+other talent the very next year and somehow Griffin is being perceived as a nobody without CP3?

I still think if Griffin had kept developing as THE man on this team without CP3 they would have made the playoffs last year. First round exit and 7-8 seed at best for sure... but at least in the playoffs with Griffin's development full steam ahead.

[dunksby]

I think this is the best roster Clipps FO could have gotten together from a practical standpoint (minus Odom's signing) since drafting BG. If this core does not win the title or WCF then it's not cause their FO didn't make the necessary moves, the NBA Championship club is an exclusive place for a reason.

[Micku]

Patience with Griffin. He could become the guy. Griffin improved on his jump shot and defense, but he needs the ball in the 4th and needs to be more aggressive.

CP3 has more of an impact than Griffin, but Griffin could get there.

I don't think the Clippers will get far unless Griffin gets better than what he is now.

[Clippersfan86]

CP3 is the main reason why this team is good. Just look at the Clippers' record with CP3 as the main man, as opposed to Griffin as the main man.

CP3 makes things happen. Griffin doesn't.

You just don't like CP3 cause he's taking minutes from your beloved Bledsoe.

Again Griffin has more expectations than any player in NBA history from some people. He didn't turn the team around in his rookie year, therefor somehow proved he CAN NEVER be that guy. :applause: . BTW I love Bledsoe but quite frankly you have zero clue what you're talking about. My argument has been for Bledsoe to start at the 2 WITH CP3 not at the 1, so pull your head out of your ass.

Until CP3 signs a max deal he's a rental in my eyes. I haven't let myself get too attached for obvious reasons. I think he will sign but unless he learns to use his teammates more efficiently I'm wondering if it's a good idea to max him for 21 mill a year. Remember before CP3 got here Blake changed the franchise. Players including CP3 started wanting to come here to play with BLAKE.

People act like CP3 made this franchise but Griffin is the true franchise changer and catalyst. I have no doubt that within 3 years without CP3 Griffin would have been able to carry this team to the playoffs. Having two superstars in the future potential is HUGE and neither will go far doing it alone but people need to stop disrespecting Griffin and acting like CP3 came in and made this team. Clippers added a ton more than CP3 last year.

[Clippersfan86]

If Clippers for example let CP3+Odom plus pieces like Hollins walk... and let's say Grant Hill retires? They can afford two borderline all star types. Monta Ellis+Paul Pierce for example would both be available and affordable for the Clippers.

Bledsoe
Ellis
Pierce
Griffin
Jordan

Is this not a very capable team still? Ellis+Griffin would be a very sick duo IMO and Bledsoe+Griffin mesh better than CP3+Griffin due to Bledsoe's ability to generate fastbreaks with steals and defense.. and Bledsoe also is way more willing to throw Blake lobs.

[Bigsmoke]

Patience with Griffin. He could become the guy. Griffin improved on his jump shot and defense, but he needs the ball in the 4th and needs to be more aggressive.

CP3 has more of an impact than Griffin, but Griffin could get there.

I don't think the Clippers will get far unless Griffin gets better than what he is now.

Jamal is my man but dude shouldn't be their leading scorer.


Let the stars go to work.

[millwad]

If Clippers for example let CP3+Odom plus pieces like Hollins walk... and let's say Grant Hill retires? They can afford two borderline all star types. Monta Ellis+Paul Pierce for example would both be available and affordable for the Clippers.

Bledsoe
Ellis
Pierce
Griffin
Jordan

Is this not a very capable team still? Ellis+Griffin would be a very sick duo IMO and Bledsoe+Griffin mesh better than CP3+Griffin due to Bledsoe's ability to generate fastbreaks with steals and defense.. and Bledsoe also is way more willing to throw Blake lobs.

[Clippersfan86]

I can't wrap my mind around the fact that Griffin is doing so much scoring first half... then team literally stops going to him in the 2nd half (especially the 4th). CP3 did it last year too and it drove me nuts.

[Clippersfan86]

[QUOTE=millwad]

[RRR3]

LMFAO @ wanting to get rid of Chris "Top 4 player in the NBA at worst" Paul :facepalm

And Fez, Monta needs to be paired with a big guard in the backcourt who can play d, Bledsoe meets the d requirement but is way too small. That's an insanely undersized backcourt. Monta should be a SG in a PG's body or a 6th man.

[Clippersfan86]

LMFAO @ wanting to get rid of Chris "Top 4 player in the NBA at worst" Paul :facepalm

And Fez, Monta needs to be paired with a big guard in the backcourt who can play d, Bledsoe meets the d requirement but is way too small. That's an insanely undersized backcourt. Monta should be a SG in a PG's body or a 6th man.

Bledsoe has no trouble guarding Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker and D Rose... who are some of the biggest PG's in the NBA so size isn't an issue. He will carry the perimeter defense for Ellis. Ironically you say it's undersized but it's bigger than what the Clippers have had the last 3 years in the backcourt.

I don't want to get rid of Paul.. I just think it's a stupid opinion people have that if CP3 walks the team has nothing left. Clippers have set themselves up very nicely to where if CP3 walks they have a ton of flexibility and options. It's not going to destroy the franchise by any means.

[RRR3]

Bledsoe has no trouble guarding Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker and D Rose... who are some of the biggest PG's in the NBA so size isn't an issue. He will carry the perimeter defense for Ellis. Ironically you say it's undersized but it's bigger than what the Clippers have had the last 3 years in the backcourt.

I don't want to get rid of Paul.. I just think it's a stupid opinion people have that if CP3 walks the team has nothing left. Clippers have set themselves up very nicely to where if CP3 walks they have a ton of flexibility and options. It's not going to destroy the franchise by any means.
Yeah, and then Monta will get torched by Wade, Kobe, Joe Johnson, etc., etc.

[Clippersfan86]

Yeah, and then Monta will get torched by Wade, Kobe, Joe Johnson, etc., etc.

Which happens to CP3, Billups, Green and Crawford now anyways. CP3 when focused and Bledsoe are the only "good" defensive guards we have. Those types of big SG's have been torching us for years :oldlol: . Ellis at least is a more dependable scoring option than our guys and loves to run the break which will benefit our bigs. Plus we would still have Crawford and him plus Ellis although a bit repetitive would be a deadly ass SG rotation.

Also Ellis isn't the only option I was just giving an example of the types of players the Clippers can afford and plug in that will be free agents.

[dunksby]

Bledsoe is unproven but will prove himself.

Ellis>>Billups, Willie Green.

Pierce is old but still a huge upgrade to Butler and has a skill based game.

Griffin is a franchise player, he just hasn't had a chance to prove it.

Jordan has improved a bunch, not his fault Vinny doesn't know how to use him.
Bledsoe used to be more of an only defense kinda guy but this season he has picked up his scoring and has been efficient at it averaging 10.5ppg on 50.5 FG% 35.7pt% 85.7FT% all huge upgrades while only averaging 7+ minutes. He has improved on all other parts of his game too. He is among the very few that have delivered on their promise of breaking out.

[RRR3]

Fez, I thought you said Chauncey was a "beast" on defense? :confusedshrug:

[Clippersfan86]

Fez, I thought you said Chauncey was a "beast" on defense? :confusedshrug:

Wth? I've never called him a "beast" on D, must have been somebody else :roll: . Upgrade defensively to Crawford and Green of course but never a "beast" defensively.

[Clippersfan86]

Bledsoe used to be more of an only defense kinda guy but this season he has picked up his scoring and has been efficient at it averaging 10.5ppg on 50.5 FG% 35.7pt% 85.7FT% all huge upgrades while only averaging 7+ minutes. He has improved on all other parts of his game too. He is among the very few that have delivered on their promise of breaking out.

:cheers: I agree his offense has improved more than people credit him for. His PER 36 is 20 ppg so obviously he's scoring more (it was PER 36 of 10.2 ppg last year!). Sure he still has his turnover issues like most athletic guards who get out of control but his passing, scoring, rebounding, efficiency, steals and blocks are all up.

[dunksby]

:cheers: I agree his offense has improved more than people credit him for. His PER 36 is 20 ppg so obviously he's scoring more (it was PER 36 of 10.2 ppg last year!). Sure he still has his turnover issues like most athletic guards who get out of control but his passing, scoring, rebounding, efficiency, steals and blocks are all up.
I'd suggest he should average like 4apg but I guess that would mean less scoring for him which I think is more important since CP3 gives you all you'd need in that department.

[outbreak]

I don't see them winning now, but you don't trade blake while he's still developing. If by the end of his deal he's still not winning you anything then you look to move him. But choosing Blake over CP3 is retarded. Did you see the hornets lakers series where CP3 had noone else on the team and still managed to make it competetive? He's a guy you can build around for a championship if done right, to be honest at the moment Blake isn't.

[Clippersfan86]

I'd suggest he should average like 4apg but I guess that would mean less scoring for him which I think is more important since CP3 gives you all you'd need in that department.

He's had a few games with 5+ assists if I recall this year but lately somehow he ended up in the doghouse despite playing well. Similar to how Karl inexcusably benches McGee according to Nuggets fans. Vinny has improved some but he just doesn't have the pedigree to work with this much talent and this many egos. Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, Stan Van Gundy need to be called in.

I almost hope we lose 10 in a row so Vinny gets canned for a more hardass coach.

[RRR3]

Karl limits McGee's minutes due to ashtma IIRC

[Clippersfan86]

I don't see them winning now, but you don't trade blake while he's still developing. If by the end of his deal he's still not winning you anything then you look to move him. But choosing Blake over CP3 is retarded. Did you see the hornets lakers series where CP3 had noone else on the team and still managed to make it competetive? He's a guy you can build around for a championship if done right, to be honest at the moment Blake isn't.

What I'm about to say isn't specifically directed at you but it's mostly relevant because a lot of people keep degrading Griffin while boosting CP3's value.

I hate to be forced to the anti CP3 spectrum but like many of them have pointed out what has CP3 done in his career? He's a perennial first round exit besides one season in New Orleans and one season now with the CLIPPERS AND BLAKE GRIFFIN. So it's stupid to act like he's proven you can contend for a championship with him when he hasn't been there.

Blake had one rookie year, didn't go far and people act like dude isn't shit. CP3 is in his 8th season so of course he's more proven and more valuable. Griffin is still raw.

[nbarumorz]

Yea I Would Cut Griffin And Cpiii Start Over Good Move

[TheMarkMadsen]

CF86.

You really think that replacing Chris Paul with Monte Ellis would make the clippers better, in what way does that make the clippers better.

You have to be able to see that Cp3 gives your team a better chance at competing for rings than Monte Ellis..

[Clippersfan86]

CF86.

You really think that replacing Chris Paul with Monte Ellis would make the clippers better, in what way does that make the clippers better.

You have to be able to see that Cp3 gives your team a better chance at competing for rings than Monte Ellis..

When did I say better? Besides I think the combination of Ellis+Pierce= CP3. Plus remember freeing Bledsoe alone will offset a lot of the loss of CP3. I think the Clippers would drop from top 3 of the west for the next few years to a dangerous mid-low seed until Griffin makes the leap.

[SCdac]

Chris Paul clearly elite and borderline superstar, but he is the epitome of an overvalued player IMO. The teams he's played on have a 14-20 record in the playoffs, never been to the Finals, yet you'd think Paul was a champion. Remember when his Hornets got routed by Melo's Nuggets to the tune of a 58 point loss? Building around a PG like him is going to be tough, because he's always going to dominate the ball in a way other elite point guards don't. Plus he's a flopping bitch, and not to into his style of play like I was 4-5 years ago.

[outbreak]

What I'm about to say isn't specifically directed at you but it's mostly relevant because a lot of people keep degrading Griffin while boosting CP3's value.

I hate to be forced to the anti CP3 spectrum but like many of them have pointed out what has CP3 done in his career? He's a perennial first round exit besides one season in New Orleans and one season now with the CLIPPERS AND BLAKE GRIFFIN. So it's stupid to act like he's proven you can contend for a championship with him when he hasn't been there.

Blake had one rookie year, didn't go far and people act like dude isn't shit. CP3 is in his 8th season so of course he's more proven and more valuable. Griffin is still raw.

I'm in agreement about blake not having had a real chance to prove himself. My argument is that based on how they have played right now, if you had to choose one or the other (i'd keep both for awhile yet though) you cannot choose Blake. CP3 had pretty bad teams with the hornets, he never had a line up that was really built to compete for a ring.

[Clippersfan86]

I'm in agreement about blake not having had a real chance to prove himself. My argument is that based on how they have played right now, if you had to choose one or the other (i'd keep both for awhile yet though) you cannot choose Blake. CP3 had pretty bad teams with the hornets, he never had a line up that was really built to compete for a ring.

I think CP3 is unquestionably better right now. I just think if you're building from the ground up and picking one now Griffin does have a case. Younger, maxed out deal, sells more tickets, no real limit to how good he CAN be if he works hard enough. I mean dude is raw and is one of the top 15 players already.

[outbreak]

I think CP3 is unquestionably better right now. I just think if you're building from the ground up and picking one now Griffin does have a case. Younger, maxed out deal, sells more tickets, no real limit to how good he CAN be if he works hard enough. I mean dude is raw and is one of the top 15 players already.
Yeah we're arguing different points I think, your saying if your picking to build around for a new franchise Griffen? I'm talking about if you have one year to win a ring and then the world is ending.

[Al Thornton]

lmao people really don't watch basketball games. op is going out of his way to make the worst poster in ish history look intelligent. i've seen 98% of blake's nba career. 3rd year blake is significantly better than rookie blake. rookie blake put up really nice numbers because he was one of two players who could do anything on a terrible team. all of his points came through dunks off a fast break or pick n roll or just experimentation. his defense didn't existent at all for the past two seasons. jj hickson could kill him for 10 straight plays by just running a pick n roll because blake still didn't know how to defend it. rookie blake would not even attempt to block any shots or stop any guys around the hoop (mostly because he was afraid of getting in foul trouble but also because he didn't know how to really do it). 3rd year blake has a consistent jump shot, is almost always decisive in the post, can guard his man solidly and his team defense is pretty good now too. he's a much much better player. and we haven't really gotten a chance to see what he can do in late game situations yet because either clippers have blown out the team, or are down and cp3 is trying really hard to get them back in the game.

[Clippersfan86]

Yeah we're arguing different points I think, your saying if your picking to build around for a new franchise Griffen? I'm talking about if you have one year to win a ring and then the world is ending.

Ahhhh then yes CP3 in a landslide. The other posters though were talking about going forward for the future they would let Griffin go before CP3 though and that I was being stupid to say otherwise. For 1 year at the ring or even 2... CP3 gets picked by 30 of 30 GM's.

[Clippersfan86]

lmao people really don't watch basketball games. op is going out of his way to make the worst poster in ish history look intelligent. i've seen 98% of blake's nba career. 3rd year blake is significantly better than rookie blake. rookie blake put up really nice numbers because he was one of two players who could do anything on a terrible team. all of his points came through dunks off a fast break or pick n roll or just experimentation. his defense didn't existent at all for the past two seasons. jj hickson could kill him for 10 straight plays by just running a pick n roll because blake still didn't know how to defend it. rookie blake would not even attempt to block any shots or stop any guys around the hoop (mostly because he was afraid of getting in foul trouble but also because he didn't know how to really do it). 3rd year blake has a consistent jump shot, is almost always decisive in the post, can guard his man solidly and his team defense is pretty good now too. he's a much much better player. and we haven't really gotten a chance to see what he can do in late game situations yet because either clippers have blown out the team, or are down and cp3 is trying really hard to get them back in the game.

The day I rep Al Thornton has finally come after 2 years of negging him. Well done AT.

[clipps]

86: I'm glad your not the Clippers GM. I'd take Elgin back before you.

[KyrieTheFuture]

CP3 for westbrook get it done.

[talkingconch]

cp3 to lakers in few years

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

they lost a great chance by not trading for Howard...

I would have done that trade...but Griffin sells tickets....

they will be good regular season but I want to see Griffin's shot fall when the pressure is on

[Nick Young]

Blake for Pau Gasol. Griffin was born to be a laker

[Clippersfan86]

they lost a great chance by not trading for Howard...

I would have done that trade...but Griffin sells tickets....

they will be good regular season but I want to see Griffin's shot fall when the pressure is on

Sorry but would have been stupid to trade Griffin on a 6 year deal for a potential 1 year rental Dwight. If Dwight re ups for 5 years I'd do the trade.

[BankShot]

Not that I think they should trade Blake....

.... but I think the Clippers should have put more consideration into a Blake/DeAndre for Dwight/Anderson trade.

[BankShot]

Blake for Pau Gasol. Griffin was born to be a laker

Blake/Dwight possibly the worst FT-shooting frontcourt since the merger?

[Clippersfan86]

Not that I think they should trade Blake....

.... but I think the Clippers should have put more consideration into a Blake/DeAndre for Dwight/Anderson trade.

Again Griffin is now on a 6 year deal including this year. No guarantee Howard stays.

[brandonislegend]

Again Griffin is now on a 6 year deal including this year. No guarantee Howard stays.
He would have made cp3 stay, now your stuck with griffins highlights but no impact

[BankShot]

Again Griffin is now on a 6 year deal including this year. No guarantee Howard stays.

:facepalm

I didn't say they should have automatically dove into a Dwight-for-Blake trade... but I do think they were possibly a bit blinded by the Star of Griffin and didn't give the idea of Dwight as a Clipper a fair shake.

Yes of course it would be a gamble without an extension, but at least for me it didn't seem like they explored that option as thoroughly as a team on the cusp would or should.

[PP34Deuce]

Clippers need a new coach, Del negro will never be trusted in my eyes.

Other than that, you have everything a team needs. Blake will get better as long as he doesnt become Amare injury prone.

[andremiller07]

I wouldn't mind the Clips making a package deal for the likes of Green/Butler (might have to let Bledose go) and a few others to get a above avg SF/good sized SG

[PP34Deuce]

I wouldn't mind the Clips making a package deal for the likes of Green/Butler (might have to let Bledose go) and a few others to get a above avg SF/good sized SG

Clippers get a Ariza type SF. They can do that without giving up Bledsoe. Ariza played great with Paul.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Sorry but would have been stupid to trade Griffin on a 6 year deal for a potential 1 year rental Dwight. If Dwight re ups for 5 years I'd do the trade.

Howard wanted to play in major market...
LA - Check

Howard wanted to play with CP3 - Check

Howard wanted max - Check

why wont you trade for howard???

there was even a article by yahoo that CP3 & Howard had planned to play together...why not go for it

sorry but the Clippers are not going anywhere next 2 years...unless Griffin is a consistent 15-20jump shooter...and can be on the floor when the game is on the line...same for DJ

[Clippersfan86]

Howard wanted to play in major market...
LA - Check

Howard wanted to play with CP3 - Check

Howard wanted max - Check

why wont you trade for howard???

there was even a article by yahoo that CP3 & Howard had planned to play together...why not go for it

That article and insight came way later. Besides Howard took small jabs at the Clippers so I wouldn't be in a hurry to take a chance on him either.

[Clifton]

CP3 is trying to turn Blake into David West 2.0 and that's not his game.
Then he should change his game.

Rajon Rondo turned the entire Celtics Big 3 into spot shooters. (This is an overly strong statement; but Rondo controlled the offense more than any of those 3 guys who were better than him for at least the first couple years.) That wasn't any of their games, but they won a championship. The Clippers' problem is not Chris Paul being such a great point guard that Blake Griffin can't play isolation spot-up ball all the time. Their problem is that Griffin isn't watching 10 hours of Karl Malone footage a week and adjusting his game accordingly. There's no reason he couldn't. Malone had the easiest job in the world: catch great pass from Stockton, and do one of 3 things.

Another problem of the Clippers is the staggering mediocrity of their wing players. No team with Jamal Crawford will ever be serious. Caron Butler and Chauncey Billups are the exact same player, and Billups is no 2, and Caron does nothing well, nothing poorly. Support wing players should be at least two of the following 3 things: slashers, defenders, spot-up shooters. Or, they have to be all-stars, or close to it. Middling guys without great role-player credentials never win titles in prominent roles. You never see the top teams seek out guys like that. The Spurs did once; remember how the Richard Jefferson experiment went? Type of guy who simply cannot be of any use to a great team.

Blake simply has to become a pick and pop, and pick and roll player. He has to change. He might have an easier time being a 25/12 guy if he's given control of the offense, but there is a 0% chance of the Clippers winning a title with him leading them. Paul on the other hand can lead a championship team.

[Al Thornton]

Another problem of the Clippers is the staggering mediocrity of their wing players. No team with Jamal Crawford will ever be serious. Caron Butler and Chauncey Billups are the exact same player, and Billups is no 2, and Caron does nothing well, nothing poorly. Support wing players should be at least two of the following 3 things: slashers, defenders, spot-up shooters. Or, they have to be all-stars, or close to it. Middling guys without great role-player credentials never win titles in prominent roles. You never see the top teams seek out guys like that. The Spurs did once; remember how the Richard Jefferson experiment went? Type of guy who simply cannot be of any use to a great team.


the 2011 mavs had 3-4 of the guys you are talking about and won a championship (kidd, barea, terry, brewer). barea and terry were playing the exact role crawford and billups are in now and it worked great throughout almost all of the playoffs.

[Sharmer]

Blake's going no where.

[Thechosen1]

If anything Blake griffin SHOULD change his game to be exactly like David West....have that automatic mid range jumper, good postgame, and add Blake's athleticism, and hes by far the best PF in the game, and it wouldnt be close.

[Clippersfan86]

This is why it was premature. Blake Griffin is on an absolutely dominant tear the last 4 or 5 and is playing like the best PF in the game easily during this stretch having huge games in 3 freaking quarters while resting the 4th. Yesterday he had 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals and a block in only 28 minutes (didn't play the 4th like rest of starters).

Blake Griffin actually has been the Clippers best player and highest impact player on this winning streak, more so than CP3. I've been saying it since last year this team will really hit potential only if Blake becomes the undisputed go to scorer and the offense runs through the paint. Clippers are AVERAGING about 60 points in the paint during this win streak and Blake has been murdering.

[Clippersfan86]

Madsen post in this one :oldlol: .

Blake's December numbers starting to look far more Blake like and we still haven't seen the best this year. In December so far he's put up...

22 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 3 apg and 2 spg on 62 percent shooting from the field and 55+ from midrange.

Edit: oh forgot to mention this is in 30 minutes a game which is incredible.

[Whoah10115]

This wasn't premature. This thread was stupid.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Madsen post in this one :oldlol: .

Blake's December numbers starting to look far more Blake like and we still haven't seen the best this year. In December so far he's put up...

22 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 3 apg and 2 spg on 62 percent shooting from the field and 55+ from midrange.

Edit: oh forgot to mention this is in 30 minutes a game which is incredible.


The whole premise of this thread is that while Blake Griffin is a good player but his Market Value is extremly high and more valuable than Blake Griffin is himself.

Grffins trade value is almost that of a Lebron James, or Kevin Durant. Yet the value he bring to a team is nowehere close to Lebron or Durant. Thats not a knock on Grffin. A lot of teams would be willing to over pay for BG and the Clippers would more than likely be able to bring in a lot of quality pieces.

That premise still holds true.

Also, CF86 i find it funny that when BG was struggling at the begining of the season you kept saying it was a "small sample size" yet when he has a good 5 game stretch he's all of a sudden the best PF in the game..

If you don't think the Clippers could trade BG and bring in a **** ton of value than your delusional.

The Clippers could easily pull the whool over a teams eyes and get more value than they would be giving up.

[BEAST Griffin]

The whole premise of this thread is that while Blake Griffin is a good player but his Market Value is extremly high and more valuable than Blake Griffin is himself.

Grffins trade value is almost that of a Lebron James, or Kevin Durant. Yet the value he bring to a team is nowehere close to Lebron or Durant. Thats not a knock on Grffin. A lot of teams would be willing to over pay for BG and the Clippers would more than likely be able to bring in a lot of quality pieces.

That premise still holds true.

Also, CF86 i find it funny that when BG was struggling at the begining of the season you kept saying it was a "small sample size" yet when he has a good 5 game stretch he's all of a sudden the best PF in the game..

If you don't think the Clippers could trade BG and bring in a **** ton of value than your delusional.

The Clippers could easily pull the whool over a teams eyes and get more value than they would be giving up.

They wouldn't get anyone with Blake's potential.

Negged.

[Dictator]

:kobe:

[TheMarkMadsen]

They wouldn't get anyone with Blake's potential.

Negged.

Depends on what you consider his potential to be. Considering how unbiased of a poster you are when it concerns BG, ii'm sure you see his potential somewhere between GOAT and GOAT..so yeah maybe they couldn't get that back

however, if we're being realistic, what's his potential? People usually overrate potential when it concerns atheltic power forwards.

As of right now, BG has declined statistically every year since his rookie year, also, regarldess of his recent season or 2, whenever you have had to sit out an entire year due to a knee injury and your a player who relys heavily on your athleticism that's a concern the farther we go down the line.

BG will need to improve his skills, which he can do, but it's not gurnateed. Look at a guy like D Wade, 5-6 years ago people thought he had unlimited potential and only needed to add a jumper to reach that next level of greatness, adding a jumper was considered "easy" and was seen as an after thought b/c "of course" he'll improve on the weak parts of his game. But here we are in 2012, Wade still doesn't have a consistent outside jumper and is noticably declining due to the loss of some of his explosiveness.

I'm not saying BG will not improve on the weak parts of his game, but it should n't be considered a given that he will.

Also, Amare is a player that BG gets compared alot to, has BG even entered Prime Amare status yet? They both had the benefit of playing with the best pg in the league.

I'm just saying, when you look at it from a perspective of someone who is neither a fan or a hater of BG it's obvious that his current market value could allow the Clippers to potentially bring in some amazing pieces.

There are teams that need to put butts in the seats that would most likely be willing to consider overhauling their team to get BG and bring some interest to their current product.

[Clippersfan86]

This is where your idiotic thinking gets exposed. Blake HAS improved every single season of his career and if you look deeper into the numbers you'll understand it's not a decline but that the team around him is becoming more and more stacked.

[TheMarkMadsen]

This is where your idiotic thinking gets exposed. Blake HAS improved every single season of his career and if you look deeper into the numbers you'll understand it's not a decline but that the team around him is becoming more and more stacked.


His efficiency rating went from 25.63 his rookie year to 23 the next year to 20 this year.


His shot from 10-15 feet out went from a 32% on 1.5 shots per game to 27% the next year on .7 shots to 42% this year on .4 shots per game..

Win share declines each year as the team continues to improve.

His rebounding numbers are declining each year. Was grabbing 9 defensive rebounds per game his rookie year, down to 7.5 last year is still at 7.3 this year.

His rookie year he was attempting almost 9 Free throw attempts per game, and hitting 64% which is pretty good for a big man who gets to the line alot.
However, the next year he got to the line less, and shot 52% :confusedshrug:

His defense has improved since his rookie year, and he's gotten better at creating his own shot. But his current trend of improvement isn't drastic enough to suggest he has the sort of GOAT potential that you and other BG fans claim that he has...

Point is, his market value is higher than what he actually brings to the court, and the Clippers could get somebody to take a lop sided deal while attaining some great pieces.

To be a legit title contender you need atleast 2 guys who can get their own in the playoffs when the defense is scheming up ways to stop them, I don't think BG is that player yet, obviously trading BG is a bad move for LAC because of the backlash from the fans and b/c of how much money he generates, i get that, but if you take away all of that stuff and simply go by what is being produced on the court,the Clippers could put themselves in immediate title contention if they brought in a player who is that kind of go to guy while not having to wait on BG's progression. Who knows what Cp3 will do this off season, does he really want to wait around 2-3 more years for BG to become that type of player that is able to be a go to guy on a championship team?

[SpecialQue]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17qki6lzrnkv0gif/cmt-medium.gif

[Clippersfan86]

His efficiency rating went from 25.63 his rookie year to 23 the next year to 20 this year.


His shot from 10-15 feet out went from a 32% on 1.5 shots per game to 27% the next year on .7 shots to 42% this year on .4 shots per game..

Win share declines each year as the team continues to improve.

His rebounding numbers are declining each year. Was grabbing 9 defensive rebounds per game his rookie year, down to 7.5 last year is still at 7.3 this year.

His rookie year he was attempting almost 9 Free throw attempts per game, and hitting 64% which is pretty good for a big man who gets to the line alot.
However, the next year he got to the line less, and shot 52% :confusedshrug:

His defense has improved since his rookie year, and he's gotten better at creating his own shot. But his current trend of improvement isn't drastic enough to suggest he has the sort of GOAT potential that you and other BG fans claim that he has...

Point is, his market value is higher than what he actually brings to the court, and the Clippers could get somebody to take a lop sided deal while attaining some great pieces.

He was injured and slow in the beginning. Let's wait till the end of the season when he posts the best season of his career before making stupid threads about trading perennial all stars.

[qrich]

You are totally right.

Maybe, just maybe, the Clippers can get Gasol for Blake...just maybe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He was injured and slow in the beginning. Let's wait till the end of the season when he posts the best season of his career before making stupid threads about trading perennial all stars.

because they never get traded :confusedshrug:

do you even understand the premise at hand which we are discussing?

BG's trade value is through the roof, he could bring back more than what he is worth. He is not a go to go for a championship contender YET, and it's no gurantee CP3 stays, who knows if he wants to wait 2+ years for Blake to become that player..

and why are you ignoring that decline from last year that i brought up in my post aswell? You act like he has some type of GOAT potential, yet he declined in areas such as Free throw and Mid range shooting last year, areas which should not be declining for a player with the potential which you make him out to have.

[ncrizzle]

Give an example of a trade that is possible where the clippers get back more than griffin. Are you talking about a one for one , or are you talking about a borderline star and some role players? The clipps have more role players than they can handle. Unless you are talking about a star PF along with a borderline star sg or Sf in exchange for griffin, i dont see how they would get better.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You are totally right.

Maybe, just maybe, the Clippers can get Gasol for Blake...just maybe.


LAC could get WAY more than friggin Pau for Blake.

With BG's trade value and the hype surrounding him do you not think that the Clippers could have atleast got Orlando's attention by offering BG for D12?

[ZaaaaaH]

This current Clippers team isn't winning any championships with its current roster. They've got some solid pieces and one of if not the best point guard in the entire league and they should focus on building around Chris Paul, and IMO Blake is not the guy to do it.

Grffin is a good, exciting young player but you are not going to be winning any championships with him as your second option. Griffin is not a guy you can depend on for points in the paint during crucial moments or a guy you can rely on to get his and create his own shot in the post during the playoffs. His stats are nice but they can be misleading, they are empty in a lot of aspects & Blake Griffin's sucess does not always equal Clippers sucess aswell.

Also, Blake Griffins trade value is probrably one of the highest in the league due to his outstanding popularity. The value that he actually brings to a team isn't ANYWHERE near his current market value, this would allow the Clippers to bring in an outstanding amount of pieces.

I'm sure there are a number of teams that would be willing to overpay for BG & give up a lot of talent in order to get him. He will put buts in the seats, i could see a team like Atlanta jumping all over a chance to bring in BG.

The Clippers would be better suited to bring in a guy who fits in better with CP3 & is also defensive minded. J Smoove comes to mind, and with Griffins trade value the Clippers would easily be able to attain a draft pick and some other solid role players to place around Cp3 if they were to trade Griffin.

Yea if ur on Crack.


:biggums:

[qrich]

LAC could get WAY more than friggin Pau for Blake.

With BG's trade value and the hype surrounding him do you not think that the Clippers could have atleast got Orlando's attention by offering BG for D12?

That flew over your head.

Would they have? Did they? Who knows. Is it a deal I was for, yes and no. And I'm confident no team would trade someone like Blake Griffin for a guy that is a diva and on an expiring contract.

But Josh Smith and role players, really? So Caron Butler, DeAndre Jordan, Matt Barnes, Jamal Crawford, Eric Bledsoe, Ronny Turiaf and when healthy, Chauncey Billups & Grant Hill are not enough role players?

Or you said a first. Smith and CJ Wilcox for Blake is enough...how? And you expect Smith to play the four in the West with big guy tandems like Pau/Dwight & ZBo/Marc?

[konex]

Griffin is the most marketable player they've had since forever. He isn't going anywhere

[TheMarkMadsen]

Give an example of a trade that is possible where the clippers get back more than griffin. Are you talking about a one for one , or are you talking about a borderline star and some role players? The clipps have more role players than they can handle. Unless you are talking about a star PF along with a borderline star sg or Sf in exchange for griffin, i dont see how they would get better.

ok. Take a team like the Hawks, probrably the worst fan base in the entire NBA, always empty seats in the arena, totally irrelevant to the "main stream" NBA.

J Smooth is about to leave for free agency, and they are not going anywhere with Horford as their # 1 guy.

JSmooth, Horford & Korver For BG, DJ.

Atlanta Hawks reasoning: J Smooth is likely to leave anyways, Horford is not enought to attract big name free agents next season, getting BG attracts free agents and is Guranteed to put butts in the seats. Brings in their biggest star since Nique and makes them relevant again.

LAC reasoning: Brings in arguably the best front court in the entire NBA. one of the best defensive PF's in J smooth and is just as atheltic as BG. Horford gives them a legit center.

Thats just one idea, with a guy like BG the possibilites are endless, who knows how far some team desperate for ticket sales would be willing to go in order to get Griffin.

Durant, Westbrooke, Bron, Kobe, Melo, Wade, Prolly the players that would be impossible to get, the rest of the players in the league could potentially end up in a trade for griffin if he was ever put on the block.

[TheMarkMadsen]

That flew over your head.

Would they have? Did they? Who knows. Is it a deal I was for, yes and no. And I'm confident no team would trade someone like Blake Griffin for a guy that is a diva and on an expiring contract.

But Josh Smith and role players, really? So Caron Butler, DeAndre Jordan, Matt Barnes, Jamal Crawford, Eric Bledsoe, Ronny Turiaf and when healthy, Chauncey Billups & Grant Hill are not enough role players?

Or you said a first. Smith and CJ Wilcox for Blake is enough...how? And you expect Smith to play the four in the West with big guy tandems like Pau/Dwight & ZBo/Marc?

Horford, Smith, and Korver for BG & DJ. Does that not improve the team?

if you don't think it does, thats fine, we can have different opinions. I think Smooth gives you exactly what BG gives you on offense plus 10x more on defense. Also, playing with a pg like cp3 would cut down of Smith's bone headed plays.

Horford, is a obvious upgrade over DJ, Hawks would be willing to give up Horford in order to get Griffin IMO, as Griffin will sell tickets and possibly attract free agents.

Korver adds another shooter to the mix

[qrich]

ok. Take a team like the Hawks, probrably the worst fan base in the entire NBA, always empty seats in the arena, totally irrelevant to the "main stream" NBA.

J Smooth is about to leave for free agency, and they are not going anywhere with Horford as their # 1 guy.

JSmooth, Horford & Korver For BG, DJ.

Atlanta Hawks reasoning: J Smooth is likely to leave anyways, Horford is not enought to attract big name free agents next season, getting BG attracts free agents and is Guranteed to put butts in the seats. Brings in their biggest star since Nique and makes them relevant again.

LAC reasoning: Brings in arguably the best front court in the entire NBA. one of the best defensive PF's in J smooth and is just as atheltic as BG. Horford gives them a legit center.

Thats just one idea, with a guy like BG the possibilites are endless, who knows how far some team desperate for ticket sales would be willing to go in order to get Griffin.

Durant, Westbrooke, Bron, Kobe, Melo, Wade, Prolly the players that would be impossible to get, the rest of the players in the league could potentially end up in a trade for griffin if he was ever put on the block.

Atlanta would have to throw in both of their first round picks this year, take on Butler/Hollins and give up Ivan/Pachulia for that to be considered by the Clips.


Horford, Smith, and Korver for BG & DJ. Does that not improve the team?

if you don't think it does, thats fine, we can have different opinions. I think Smooth gives you exactly what BG gives you on offense plus 10x more on defense. Also, playing with a pg like cp3 would cut down of Smith's bone headed plays.

Horford, is a obvious upgrade over DJ, Hawks would be willing to give up Horford in order to get Griffin IMO, as Griffin will sell tickets and possibly attract free agents.

No, it does not. Korver is doo-doo and can easily be replicated by signing Michael Roll, Richie Frahm, Jason Kapono, etc. A stand alone three point shooter doesn't have much value. Eddie House is yet another name.

Smith does not give you anywhere near what Blake gives you on offense, are you kidding me? Blake's post moves have been greatly improving and his repertoire is getting bigger and bigger. His jumper is actually not bad, he just lacks confidence in taking the shots. Smith also is not a good fit with Paul as Paul likes to grind it out and I can't see Smith being as productive grinding it out in the West. Blake is scoring more points with less shots and less playing time after his atrocious start. More rebounds as well. Then consider the fact that Smith is a FREE AGENT while Blake is LOCKED IN for five more years, and Blake sells seats so he also brings in $$$$ to the franchise, something Smith really does not. Horford may also be an upgrade over Jordan, but in the West, you need size if you are going to win or have three damn good perimeter guys ala last years Thunder, which the Clippers won't have after this deal. I mean, look at some of the size and depth in the West. Pau/Dwight. Marc/Z-Bo. Favors/Kanter/Jefferson/Millsap. Even the Warriors with Lee/Bogut/Ezeli/Landry and even Biedrins. Despite athleticism, you want a 6'9 and a nicely measured 6'10 guy to compete in 7 game series' with those guys?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Atlanta would have to throw in both of their first round picks this year, take on Butler/Hollins and give up Ivan/Pachulia for that to be considered by the Clips.



No, it does not. Korver is doo-doo and can easily be replicated by signing Michael Roll, Richie Frahm, Jason Kapono, etc. A stand alone three point shooter doesn't have much value. Eddie House is yet another name.

Smith does not give you anywhere near what Blake gives you on offense, are you kidding me? Blake's post moves have been greatly improving and his repertoire is getting bigger and bigger. His jumper is actually not bad, he just lacks confidence in taking the shots. Smith also is not a good fit with Paul as Paul likes to grind it out and I can't see Smith being as productive grinding it out in the West. Blake is scoring more points with less shots and less playing time after his atrocious start. More rebounds as well. Then consider the fact that Smith is a FREE AGENT while Blake is LOCKED IN for five more years, and Blake sells seats so he also brings in $$$$ to the franchise, something Smith really does not. Horford may also be an upgrade over Jordan, but in the West, you need size if you are going to win or have three damn good perimeter guys ala last years Thunder, which the Clippers won't have after this deal. I mean, look at some of the size and depth in the West. Pau/Dwight. Marc/Z-Bo. Favors/Kanter/Jefferson/Millsap. Even the Warriors with Lee/Bogut/Ezeli/Landry and even Biedrins. Despite athleticism, you want a 6'9 and a nicely measured 6'10 guy to compete in 7 game series' with those guys?

I like how you trash Kyle Korver who is averaging 10 ppg on 42% shooting from 3 and call him "doo doo" and say he can be "easily replaced" with a bunch of guys who aren't even in the league :facepalm

It's also Ironic how you don't mention a damn thing about Smith's defense and how much better it is than Griffins. Also, how Horford is 10x the player that DJ is.

and enough with this "BG plays less" non sense, he plays 2 minutes less than Smith per game :facepalm .

Also, Smith takes 2 more shots per game than BG, seeing as Smiths the #1 option for his team thats understandable. Smith would beneifit from playing along side CP3 just as Griffin does..

Atlanta is 12-5 with Josh Smith and Horford LEADING THE TEAM with a bunch of sub par role players.

Imagine Horford and Smith playing along side Cp3,

[Clippersfan86]

Blake Griffin is on par with if not better defensively than Smith this year. Stop giving players merit on reputation and start actually watching the games dipshit.

[Clippersfan86]

19 pts (7-11), 9 rebs, 4 assists, 3 steals was Blake's statline again without playing a single minute of the 4th and only playing 29 minutes. Dude is dominating and the team even stopped feeding him the ball in the 3rd and chucking jumpers.

[qrich]

I like how you trash Kyle Korver who is averaging 10 ppg on 42% shooting from 3 and call him "doo doo" and say he can be "easily replaced" with a bunch of guys who aren't even in the league :facepalm

It's also Ironic how you don't mention a damn thing about Smith's defense and how much better it is than Griffins. Also, how Horford is 10x the player that DJ is.

and enough with this "BG plays less" non sense, he plays 2 minutes less than Smith per game :facepalm .

Also, Smith takes 2 more shots per game than BG, seeing as Smiths the #1 option for his team thats understandable. Smith would beneifit from playing along side CP3 just as Griffin does..

Atlanta is 12-5 with Josh Smith and Horford LEADING THE TEAM with a bunch of sub par role players.

Imagine Horford and Smith playing along side Cp3,

Korver is a stand alone shooter, as are those guys. Definitely nothing more than just filler in a trade.

Smith is a much better weak side defender, but the gap between the two when it comes to man defense isn't as big as you want to believe.

And sure, Horford is better on offense, but why ignore defense when I'd take DJ over Horford any day, in the WEST? DJ is longer and more athletic to boot.

Smith takes more shots and scores LESS is the point, flew over your head as well?

The Clippers play in the West and have had the toughest SOS to date. Atlanta plays in the East with the 17th ranked SOS to date. But that has no reflection on the records right?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Blake Griffin is on par with if not better defensively than Smith this year. Stop giving players merit on reputation and start actually watching the games dipshit.


Josh Smith, AL Horford, Kyle Korver for Blake Griffin & DJ is a bad trade for the Clippers?

Swap Blake Griffin & DJ with Horford & Smith this year, are the Hawks still 12-5?

[Clippersfan86]

Josh Smith, AL Horford, Kyle Korver for Blake Griffin & DJ is a bad trade for the Clippers?

Swap Blake Griffin & DJ with Horford & Smith this year, are the Hawks still 12-5?

I didn't say anything about the trade being bad. Obviously the combination of those 3 is better than Blake but trades aren't all about that. Contract, upside, youth etc has a TON to do with it and Blake is the next great PF and is a better fit for the team. Besides if you trade for both what do you do with 11 mill a year DJ?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Korver is a stand alone shooter, as are those guys. Definitely nothing more than just filler in a trade.

Smith is a much better weak side defender, but the gap between the two when it comes to man defense isn't as big as you want to believe.

And sure, Horford is better on offense, but why ignore defense when I'd take DJ over Horford any day, in the WEST? DJ is longer and more athletic to boot.

Smith takes more shots and scores LESS is the point, flew over your head as well?

The Clippers play in the West and have had the toughest SOS to date. Atlanta plays in the East with the 17th ranked SOS to date. But that has no reflection on the records right?


Smith Shoots 2 more shots per game than Griffin and averages .9 less points per game.

Take away the pressure of being the #1 option and add in one or two easy buckets per game that playing with CP3 will get you, and i'm confident that Smith's production would match Griffins.

Are you going to act like if BG was the #1 option on his team and wasn't playing with a great PG that maybe just maybe he'd have to shoot a few more times per game?

[qrich]

Smith Shoots 2 more shots per game than Griffin and averages .9 less points per game.

Take away the pressure of being the #1 option and add in one or two easy buckets per game that playing with CP3 will get you, and i'm confident that Smith's production would match Griffins.

Are you going to act like if BG was the #1 option on his team and wasn't playing with a great PG that maybe just maybe he'd have to shoot a few more times per game?


And what did Blake average his rookie year without a point guard like Paul and the pressure of being the #1 option?

[Whoah10115]

Blake Griffin is on par with if not better defensively than Smith this year. Stop giving players merit on reputation and start actually watching the games dipshit.



Don't say stuff like this because people think you're being a homer. Griffin has not been elite or anything and Smith is playing great defense. That's not true.

[Al Thornton]

it's insane to me that these are real thoughts someone has and is 100% serious about.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I didn't say anything about the trade being bad. Obviously the combination of those 3 is better than Blake but trades aren't all about that. Contract, upside, youth etc has a TON to do with it and Blake is the next great PF and is a better fit for the team. Besides if you trade for both what do you do with 11 mill a year DJ?

:lol

I'm laughing but that is a good point, contract, and upside are factors.

So lets look at it that way

Contract, is Horfords contract better for what you're getting that Dj's contract? Yes.

Contract, Is Smith likely to resign in a big city that gets as much press as LA does? Most likely yes.

Contract, does bringing in arguably the best PF/C combination give Cp3 a big reason to resign? Yes.

Upside, the upside of bringing in a dominant front court allows you to re sign the best pg in the league and have him for years to come.

Upside, LAC play in the west, and as we know in the west it a lot of times comes down to the bigs, Who in the west can currently match up with a j smith/Horford froncourt with Cp3 running point?

Smith/Horford/Cp3 is a scary combination. Cp3 would thrive.

[Clippersfan86]

Teams already can't match up with this team. Neither Horford or Smith can be relied upon like Griffin to be THE go to player. CP3 would be forced to carry a much bigger offensive load again. Clippers are 7-2 against good teams this year... so matching up in the west isn't an issue. Their loss to OKC was very winnable too. Only good team that flat out smoked us was the Hawks, a week after we beat them by 13.

[TheMarkMadsen]

it's insane to me that these are real thoughts someone has and is 100% serious about.


you obviously havent read the thread very carefully, obviously the Clippers wont trade him, nor should they due to his popularity.

The premise of the thread is that BG's trade value could bring the Cluppers a better combination of players that BG..

Is Josh Smith, Al Horford & Korver for BG and DJ a bad trade for the Clippers?

Before you jump into a thread and decide to post the classic ISH "i've only read the title of the thread so i'll react to that instead of the context in which the title of the thread was being proposed" maybe you should read through.

[Fiasco]

Is Josh Smith, Al Horford & Korver for BG and DJ a bad trade for the Clippers?

Yes.

Next.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Teams already can't match up with this team. Neither Horford or Smith can be relied upon like Griffin to be THE go to player. CP3 would be forced to carry a much bigger offensive load again. Clippers are 7-2 against good teams this year... so matching up in the west isn't an issue. Their loss to OKC was very winnable too. Only good team that flat out smoked us was the Hawks, a week after we beat them by 13.


Neither can Griffin :confusedshrug:

Griffin has not proven to be a go to player that you can depend on in the playoffs, you can't be serious :wtf:

Last year in the playoffs, against the Spurs

Game 1: 7-17 15 pts 9 boards. +/- = -24

Game 2: 7-16 20 points 1 rebound in 37 minutes

Game 3: 13-24 28 points. 16 reb. Good game, great stats. however most of his points came in the first half (14 in the first quarter) and was not reliable down the stretch. Team lost the game.

Game 4: 9-20 21 pts. 5 rebounds.

I pick this series b/c it was the WCF semi's, this is where your GO TO PLAYERS play like GO TO PLAYERS, where in that series was Griffin a go to guy :confusedshrug:

How can you be considered a go to player at the PF position and have a game where you shoot under 50% and grab 1 rebound in the WCF semis?

That 1 game out of 4 where he grabbed more than 10 rebounds and shot better than 50%, and in the 1 game he did that most of his production came in the 1st half.

Blake Griffin is not the GO TO PLAYER that you make him out to be

[Clippersfan86]

Blake Griffin had the longest 20/10 streak since Shaq. He absolutely CAN be depended on as a go to scorer. His rookie year he was and it's not his fault the team was shredded with injuries and not very good. Dude put up 22.5 ppg despite being double teamed religiously.

Blake is FAR more dependable as a go to, 20+ ppg scorer than either Smith or Horford who have had MUCH longer to prove themselves and have been in the league longer than Blake. Don't use the playoffs as a sample when Blake was injured and beat the hell up. I guarantee you... you'll change your tune this year when he's dominating the playoffs.

[Bandito]

Exactly. Makes me laugh when people say things like "He proved he couldn't do it by himself and needed a star to carry him". So he got his one rookie year where the team had tons of new players, was decimated by injuries... to turn the franchise around before being labeled a low impact, overrated player? The team got CP3+other talent the very next year and somehow Griffin is being perceived as a nobody without CP3?

I still think if Griffin had kept developing as THE man on this team without CP3 they would have made the playoffs last year. First round exit and 7-8 seed at best for sure... but at least in the playoffs with Griffin's development full steam ahead.
Just imagine a healthy Gordon, Bledsoe and Griffin:bowdown:

[The Nets]

Well for someone who keeps declining since his rookie season, it is rational for the front office to trade him earlier than later.
:pimp:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Blake Griffin had the longest 20/10 streak since Shaq. He absolutely CAN be depended on as a go to scorer. His rookie year he was and it's not his fault the team was shredded with injuries and not very good. Dude put up 22.5 ppg despite being double teamed religiously.

Blake is FAR more dependable as a go to, 20+ ppg scorer than either Smith or Horford who have had MUCH longer to prove themselves and have been in the league longer than Blake. Don't use the playoffs as a sample when Blake was injured and beat the hell up. I guarantee you... you'll change your tune this year when he's dominating the playoffs.


Dude, Newsflash nobody is 100% healthy and pristine going into the playoffs. Stop making excuses for BG when he clearly did not have an impressive showing in the biggest 4 games of his career.

And what does the 20 10 streak prove anyways? BG had a 12 game stretch of 20 & 10, but doesnt prove that he is a go to guy? I've seen you trash Kevin Love and put him down in comparison to BG but his 53 straight double double streak takes a fat dump on 12 games of 20 & 10.

[Clippersfan86]

Dude, Newsflash nobody is 100% healthy and pristine going into the playoffs. Stop making excuses for BG when he clearly did not have an impressive showing in the biggest 4 games of his career.

And what does the 20 10 streak prove anyways? BG had a 12 game stretch of 20 & 10, but doesnt prove that he is a go to guy? I've seen you trash Kevin Love and put him down in comparison to BG but his 53 straight double double streak takes a fat dump on 12 games of 20 & 10.

Yes I'm sure having a torn Meniscus and hyperextended knee in the playoffs is something players regularly play through :oldlol: . BTW it was way more than 12 straight 20/10 games his rookie year. It was something like 26 or 27 if I remember. Regardless I'm not comparing him to Love... I'm saying Griffin is a better go to player than Smith and Horford which is a fact. Blake is a young player still learning but has first option scorer written all over him. He regularly takes over games with 8-10+ straight points and regularly has 15+ point halves. Horford and Smith are career 3rd option players.

[Clippersfan86]

Griffin tore his meniscus in the olympics, what does that have to do with the Spurs series

Wrong it happened in the playoffs and was kept hush hush with a max extension around the corner. Coangelo flat out said during the Olympics that he's almost sure the torn Meniscus actually happened in the playoffs. Trust me the injuries severely limited Blake, CP3 and the rest of the banged up guys.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yes I'm sure having a torn Meniscus and hyperextended knee in the playoffs is something players regularly play through :oldlol: . BTW it was way more than 12 straight 20/10 games his rookie year. It was something like 26 or 27 if I remember. Regardless I'm not comparing him to Love... I'm saying Griffin is a better go to player than Smith and Horford which is a fact. Blake is a young player still learning but has first option scorer written all over him. He regularly takes over games with 8-10+ straight points and regularly has 15+ point halves. Horford and Smith are career 3rd option players.


Griffin tore his meniscus in the Olympics, what does that have to do with the Spurs series

regardless of if you think BG is a go to guy, the combination of JSMOOTH +AL Horford would be better for the Clippers than the combination of BG & DJ

[qrich]

Fine, Blake and two firsts for David Lee :bowdown:

[NumberSix]

I understand the backlash to previous Blake overrating, but it's sliding a little too far in the other direction. Blake Griffin is a fcking good player. He's not an "elite" player, but he's definitely one of the top PF's in the NBA.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I understand the backlash to previous Blake overrating, but it's sliding a little too far in the other direction. Blake Griffin is a fcking good player. He's not an "elite" player, but he's definitely one of the top PF's in the NBA.


i've said numerous times in this thread that yes, BG is really good player.

However, his trade value is higher than the impact he brings.

If the Clips could get Jsmith & Horford for BG then it would be a good trade for the Clippers.

Somehow, Clippers fans think Griffin is better than the combination of Josh Smith and Al Horford which to me is just :facepalm

[chazzy]

Blake Griffin is on par with if not better defensively than Smith this year. Stop giving players merit on reputation and start actually watching the games dipshit.

it's insane to me that these are real thoughts someone has and is 100% serious about.
:roll: :roll:

[Clippersfan86]

I understand the backlash to previous Blake overrating, but it's sliding a little too far in the other direction. Blake Griffin is a fcking good player. He's not an "elite" player, but he's definitely one of the top PF's in the NBA.

:applause:. I'd be careful saying "overrated" though. I think Blake was WAY overhyped and spoon fed to everybody and MAYBE slightly overrated but not enough to get a title for it. People nowadays act like Griffin may not be a top 8 PF :facepalm .

[TheCalmInsanity]

i've said numerous times in this thread that yes, BG is really good player.

However, his trade value is higher than the impact he brings.

If the Clips could get Jsmith & Horford for BG then it would be a good trade for the Clippers.

Somehow, Clippers fans think Griffin is better than the combination of Josh Smith and Al Horford which to me is just :facepalm

And we've called you an idiot numerous times. We didn't misunderstand you.

The trade value being higher is not just because of razzle dazzle. It's because of age, having him for another guaranteed 5 years, current production, AND future production.

If the Clippers trade him for what he's worth now, he will show his improvements and spend his physical prime dominating with some other team. How stupid are you?

[ncrizzle]

:applause:. I'd be careful saying "overrated" though. I think Blake was WAY overhyped and spoon fed to everybody and MAYBE slightly overrated but not enough to get a title for it. People nowadays act like Griffin may not be a top 8 PF :facepalm .

i havent seen anyone say blake is not a top 8 pf. He is top 5 without question whether ppl want to say it or not.

[andremiller07]

.

If the Clips could get Jsmith & Horford for BG then it would be a good trade for the Clippers.


It would be a horrible trade for the Hawks tho, why would they give up two top notch starters?

[qrich]

i havent seen anyone say blake is not a top 8 pf. He is top 5 without question whether ppl want to say it or not.

At the start of the year, with his play, I'd say he was arguably top 7. Over the past handful or so of games, he's been arguably the best.

Dude just need to have confidence and I think he can be cemented as a top 3 PF.

[talkingconch]

OP is right. Clippers are title contenders if they had moved griffin for Howard when they had the chance. Not sure who they could get for now.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It would be a horrible trade for the Hawks tho, why would they give up two top notch starters?


yeah i felt like the hawks weren't getting enough back, somehow the clippers are getting ripped off though :confusedshrug:

[qrich]

yeah i felt like the hawks weren't getting enough back, somehow the clippers are getting ripped off though :confusedshrug:

No one said anything about getting ripped off.

Fact of the matter is, considering EVERYTHING, Clippers will turn that deal down unless the Hawks add incentive. Why? Blake is younger, the difference on defense between Smith and Blake is equivalent or pretty damn close to the difference on offense, Blake is locked in, Smoove is an unrestricted free agent, and everything else that has already been mentioned.

But I expect that to all to be flown over your head. I mean, it is apparent you think Smith is equal to Blake on offense, essentially (or pretty damn close), so if that is what you believe, then nothing else can be said.

[Ol Dirty Bastard]

OP is right. Clippers are title contenders if they had moved griffin for Howard when they had the chance. Not sure who they could get for now.

Actually heard a great debate about this before the season started on ESPN radio.

[I.R.Beast]

Chris Paul is hindering blakes development

[TheMarkMadsen]

No one said anything about getting ripped off.

Fact of the matter is, considering EVERYTHING, Clippers will turn that deal down unless the Hawks add incentive. Why? Blake is younger, the difference on defense between Smith and Blake is equivalent or pretty damn close to the difference on offense, Blake is locked in, Smoove is an unrestricted free agent, and everything else that has already been mentioned.

But I expect that to all to be flown over your head. I mean, it is apparent you think Smith is equal to Blake on offense, essentially (or pretty damn close), so if that is what you believe, then nothing else can be said.


Atlanta would have to throw in both of their first round picks this year, take on Butler/Hollins and give up Ivan/Pachulia for that to be considered by the Clips.


Sounds like you're saying the clips would be getting ripped off. :confusedshrug:

Chances are Smith would resign with the Cippers, this would also give CP3 more incentive to resign.

Horford & Smith with Cp3 would be scary, add in Crawford, Butler, Bledsoe, that team could do some damage in the playoffs.

This was just the first trade that popped in my head, i'm sure the Clippers could get even better than this out of a Blake Griffin deal

[qrich]

Sounds like you're saying the clips would be getting ripped off. :confusedshrug:

Chances are Smith would resign with the Cippers, this would also give CP3 more incentive to resign.

Horford & Smith with Cp3 would be scary, add in Crawford, Butler, Bledsoe, that team could do some damage in the playoffs.

This was just the first trade that popped in my head, i'm sure the Clippers could get even better than this out of a Blake Griffin deal

No, I'm saying Atlanta would need to add in incentive to get the Clippers to consider. There is a ton of reasons for more incentive being needed than value. Such as marketability, age, potential, etc.

Yes, chances are Smith will reup, just like Elton Brand was. Or Carlos Boozer was. Or chances are Iverson will lead Denver to the promised land. Or Horford won't miss any games. Shall I continue?

Horford and Smith will get murdered in the paint in the playoffs if they were to face the Lakers, the Grizzlies hell even the Jazz. I wouldn't be confident with them against the Nuggets either.

But hey, Smith is tons better than Blake. He's superior on offense due to putting up worse stats in more time and more shot opportunities and is a million times better on D due to rep.

:rolleyes:

[TheMarkMadsen]

No, I'm saying Atlanta would need to add in incentive to get the Clippers to consider. There is a ton of reasons for more incentive being needed than value. Such as marketability, age, potential, etc.

Yes, chances are Smith will reup, just like Elton Brand was. Or Carlos Boozer was. Or chances are Iverson will lead Denver to the promised land. Or Horford won't miss any games. Shall I continue?

Horford and Smith will get murdered in the paint in the playoffs if they were to face the Lakers, the Grizzlies hell even the Jazz. I wouldn't be confident with them against the Nuggets either.

But hey, Smith is tons better than Blake. He's superior on offense due to putting up worse stats in more time and more shot opportunities and is a million times better on D due to rep.

:rolleyes:

that's totally irrelevant?

Anyways, you're argument about BG playing less minutes is absurd, he plays 2 minutes less per game. BG: 33 Mpg. Jsmooth: 35 :facepalm

And Smith takes 2 more shots than Griffen per game, you think that might have something to do with Smith being more of a focal point for the Hawks offense and basically being their # 1 option?

I think Smith could score just as many points as he already does on 2 less shots per game if he was playing with CP3 who will get you 2-3 easy looks per game as a PF..

Smith also add a shot blocking presence that isn't there with BG

[qrich]

that's totally irrelevant?

Anyways, you're argument about BG playing less minutes is absurd, he plays 2 minutes less per game. BG: 33 Mpg. Jsmooth: 35 :facepalm

And Smith takes 2 more shots than Griffen per game, you think that might have something to do with Smith being more of a focal point for the Hawks offense and basically being their # 1 option?

I think Smith could score just as many points on 2 less shots per game if he was playing with CP3 who will get you 2-3 easy looks per game as a PF..

Smith also add a shot blocking presence that isn't there with BG

No, it is relevant because all of those had "high" chances of occurring and did not.

Two minutes is two minutes. That is 4-6 offensive possessions.

And who is the #1 option on the Clips a majority of the time? Granted, its by committee, but Blake has had it for the past handful of games.

I think Blake would score more points without a legitimate point guard on the same amount of shots...oh wait, he already did. As opposed to your hypothetical question.

Smith adds a weak side shot blocking presence, which the Clippers do have with DJ.

Bottom line is, despite how close the value might or might not be, the Clippers would not consider that without much added incentive.

[kmartshopper]

posting in a prole tread

[TheMarkMadsen]

No, it is relevant because all of those had "high" chances of occurring and did not.

Two minutes is two minutes. That is 4-6 offensive possessions.

And who is the #1 option on the Clips a majority of the time? Granted, its by committee, but Blake has had it for the past handful of games.

I think Blake would score more points without a legitimate point guard on the same amount of shots...oh wait, he already did. As opposed to your hypothetical question.

Smith adds a weak side shot blocking presence, which the Clippers do have with DJ.

Bottom line is, despite how close the value might or might not be, the Clippers would not consider that without much added incentive.


No it's not relative, it can go both ways b/c the whole reason you think BG is so valuable is b/c of "HIGH" chances of him living up to whatever you think his potential is.

So if we're not factoring in anything that hasn't happened yet, like smith re signing or BG living up to whatever you think his potential is then Smith + Horford would bring in more value than just BG himself..

BG's trade value is basically whatever you think his potential is, so you can't discredit the fact that J smith is likely resign with the Clippers if you're still putting in so much weight into what YOU think BG's potential might be.

CF86, you still haven't explained how that torn meniscus BG suffered in the Olympics had anything to do with his poor performance against the Spurs :confusedshrug:

[-p.tiddy-]

I think 5 year from now Griffin will be one of the best players in the NBA

he has such a huge athletic frame that is just so hard to stop close range, and he is finding a good mid range shot now

He is still young and raw...he is going to be an NBA stud once he gets all the fine tuning in

[Clippersfan86]

Mark the injury was sustained in the playoffs, I already told you that. Ralph Lawler and Coangelo came out and said they strongly suspected it. It made perfect sense for Blake to hide the injury with a max deal coming up and I probably would have done the same thing. He definitely tore the Meniscus and hyper-extended the knee in game 4 of the Grizzlies series.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Rockets should get Blake. Anything is better than Patrick Patterson.

[brandonislegend]

Mark the injury was sustained in the playoffs, I already told you that. Ralph Lawler and Coangelo came out and said they strongly suspected it. It made perfect sense for Blake to hide the injury with a max deal coming up and I probably would have done the same thing. He definitely tore the Meniscus and hyper-extended the knee in game 4 of the Grizzlies series.

http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/CHANNEL_IMAGES/TECH/2012/12/content/damedashsigh.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

Mark the injury was sustained in the playoffs, I already told you that. Ralph Lawler and Coangelo came out and said they strongly suspected it. It made perfect sense for Blake to hide the injury with a max deal coming up and I probably would have done the same thing. He definitely tore the Meniscus and hyper-extended the knee in game 4 of the Grizzlies series.


That sounds like a bunch of speculation mixed in with a bit of personal opinion.

And when he was "injured" against Memphis, he was able to return to the game..

Blake still had all his bounce in that SAS series..

He was fine for both of those series. He may have been a little banged up after the Memphis series, but he never missed a game and returned to the game after he got hurt, so i don't think he was "injured" to the extent that you think he was in the playoffs.

check this play out, GAME 3 of the 4 game series against the spurs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z-Rrktf6x8

he doesn't look to have any signs of a torn mensicus or hyper extended knee :confusedshrug:

[Clippersfan86]

That sounds like a bunch of speculation mixed in with a bit of personal opinion.

And when he was "injured" against Memphis, he was able to return to the game..

Blake still had all his bounce in that SAS series..

He was fine for both of those series. He may have been a little banged up after the Memphis series, but he never missed a game and returned to the game after he got hurt, so i don't think he was "injured" to the extent that you think he was in the playoffs.

check this play out, GAME 3 of the 4 game series against the spurs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z-Rrktf6x8

he doesn't look to have any signs of a torn mensicus or hyper extended knee :confusedshrug:

You don't watch Blake Griffin to be qualified to talk about it. I haven't missed a single game of his career. One or two explosive plays doesn't offset the tons of plays where it was obvious he just couldn't get off the ground well at all for a rebound or shot. I'm not sure if you know this but you CAN play with a minor or mild Meniscus tear. It will affect you athletically but you can still play.

BTW he was diagnosed openly with the hyperextended knee and Jason Powell our trainer said he would be out about two weeks if it wasn't a playoff series. Not sure what grounds you have to discredit NBA doctors or fans who watch Blake Griffin every game.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You don't watch Blake Griffin to be qualified to talk about it. I haven't missed a single game of his career. One or two explosive plays doesn't offset the tons of plays where it was obvious he just couldn't get off the ground well at all for a rebound or shot. I'm not sure if you know this but you CAN play with a minor or mild Meniscus tear. It will affect you athletically but you can still play.

BTW he was diagnosed openly with the hyperextended knee and Jason Powell our trainer said he would be out about two weeks if it wasn't a playoff series. Not sure what grounds you have to discredit NBA doctors or fans who watch Blake Griffin every game.

Dude you keep flip flopping, at first you said this.


Yes I'm sure having a torn Meniscus and hyperextended knee in the playoffs is something players regularly play through :oldlol:

so at first Blake had a torn meniscus and hyperextended knee in the playoffs which was the reason for his poor play.

Now, it's "specualted" that Blake had a torn meniscus in the playoffs, and it makes "pefect sense to CF86" that he would hide his torn meniscus..?


Ralph Lawler and Coangelo came out and said they strongly suspected it. It made perfect sense for Blake to hide the injury

Now it's that he only had a hyper extended knee



he was diagnosed openly with the hyperextended knee and Jason Powell our trainer.. QUOTE]

so he was diagnosed with a hyperextended knee and during that same medical examination they somehow missed a torn mensicus?

And then you go on to admit that with a Meniscus injury the player will be affected atheltically..

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86] I'm not sure if you know this but you CAN play with a minor or mild Meniscus tear. It will affect you athletically but you can still play.


And then, theres all these videos of BG against the spurs last year in the playoffs where he OBVIOUSLY still has A lot of athelticism still left..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukZsGM3NzgU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0VVt6z5-90

tell me that guy bouncing off the walls in those videos is palying with a torn mensicus?

The announcer in the video even refers to the hyper extended knee and says "no signs of injury today"

i don't think with a torn mensicus, he would still be getting that type of lift

[Clippersfan86]

You're not making any sense at all. YES it's perfectly normal to diagnose a strain or hyperextension and miss a tear. Why? Because one requires an MRI and the other doesn't. Even then an MRI can miss small tears like Blake had initially and it sometimes takes 2 or 3 to spot something.

Bottom line is you're doing nothing more than talking out of your ass. You didn't watch the Spurs/Clippers series or the Grizzlies/Clippers series. A few highlight plays as your evidence proves just that. Anybody who watched both series can vouch for the fact that even with a few explosive plays here and there Blake was clearly athletically limited and nowhere near 100 percent.

Nothing is flip flopping about what you quoted. Most players DON'T play with these injuries because most players don't happen to get them when they are up for a 95 million dollar extension in a month and in a very competitive playoff series. It's very logical when you piece together the set of circumstances.

Bottom line is Blake was playing great in the first 4 games of the playoffs outside of the rebounding issues he was having. If you look at his numbers after the injury (similar to CP3) they declined pretty rapidly. His best game of the playoffs was the game he actually got injured late in the game (after he had done his damage).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_b6Hrz1Wuk


BTW I think it could be a bit more complicated. Remember a torn Meniscus of the grade Blake had will heal on it's own without surgery. Maybe I'm wrong that he knew... and he didn't know so he played through it. But if you watch the play in the Olympics that injured him you'd understand why it's unlikely that a hit that soft on the knee would actually cause a tear. Which is why Coangelo said he feels it actually happened in the playoffs. Blake probably knew something else was up but avoided MRI for fear of his contract situation.

[ncrizzle]

so he was diagnosed with a hyperextended knee and during that same medical examination they somehow missed a torn mensicus?
:applause:

[ncrizzle]

You're not making any sense at all. YES it's perfectly normal to diagnose a strain or hyperextension and miss a tear. Why? Because one requires an MRI and the other doesn't. Even then an MRI can miss small tears like Blake had initially and it sometimes takes 2 or 3 to spot something.

Bottom line is you're doing nothing more than talking out of your ass. You didn't watch the Spurs/Clippers series or the Grizzlies/Clippers series. A few highlight plays as your evidence proves just that. Anybody who watched both series can vouch for the fact that even with a few explosive plays here and there Blake was clearly athletically limited and nowhere near 100 percent.

Nothing is flip flopping about what you quoted. Most players DON'T play with these injuries because most players don't happen to get them when they are up for a 95 million dollar extension in a month and in a very competitive playoff series. It's very logical when you piece together the set of circumstances.

Bottom line is Blake was playing great in the first 4 games of the playoffs outside of the rebounding issues he was having. If you look at his numbers after the injury (similar to CP3) they declined pretty rapidly. His best game of the playoffs was the game he actually got injured late in the game (after he had done his damage).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_b6Hrz1Wuk


BTW I think it could be a bit more complicated. Remember a torn Meniscus of the grade Blake had will heal on it's own without surgery. Maybe I'm wrong that he knew... and he didn't know so he played through it. But if you watch the play in the Olympics that injured him you'd understand why it's unlikely that a hit that soft on the knee would actually cause a tear. Which is why Coangelo said he feels it actually happened in the playoffs. Blake probably knew something else was up but avoided MRI for fear of his contract situation.

Was he playing to win or playing for a contract? If he had a torn meniscus he would be a fvcking idiot to step on the floor as more extensive damage could have been done
:facepalm

[Clippersfan86]

Why are they exclusive? Even Blake with a bum knee>>>>>>>Kenyon Martin so him being out sure as hell wouldn't help the team and quite honestly most players would prioritize their first max deal over winning a couple extra playoff games.

[qrich]

No it's not relative, it can go both ways b/c the whole reason you think BG is so valuable is b/c of "HIGH" chances of him living up to whatever you think his potential is.

So if we're not factoring in anything that hasn't happened yet, like smith re signing or BG living up to whatever you think his potential is then Smith + Horford would bring in more value than just BG himself..

BG's trade value is basically whatever you think his potential is, so you can't discredit the fact that J smith is likely resign with the Clippers if you're still putting in so much weight into what YOU think BG's potential might be.

CF86, you still haven't explained how that torn meniscus BG suffered in the Olympics had anything to do with his poor performance against the Spurs :confusedshrug:

No, he is valuable for other reasons besides his potential. Such as his current play and the money he brings in, just to start off. Contract situation as well. That is what his trade value is, along with his potential.

And yes, I can discredit the fact that you saying Smith reupping is likely because I just mentioned a handful of scenarios, in which many people, thought was likely and ended up failing.

[Clippersfan86]

No, he is valuable for other reasons besides his potential. Such as his current play and the money he brings in, just to start off. Contract situation as well. That is what his trade value is, along with his potential.

And yes, I can discredit the fact that you saying Smith reupping is likely because I just mentioned a handful of scenarios, in which many people, thought was likely and ended up failing.

John Hollinger of all people, a huge Clippers hater called Blake Griffin one of maybe 3 untradable players in this league. He said while he's not a top 3 player due to upside, age, contract, attitude and ability to sell tickets with his playstyle that he's untradable. Which I agree 100 percent on.

Early in the season I mentioned him being LESS untradable when he looked like he didn't give a fu** but he proved that was just an unusual funk and has bounced back to win NBA western conference player of the week.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Or chances are Iverson will lead Denver to the promised land. Or Horford won't miss any games. Shall I continue?


:rolleyes:

what the hell does allen Iverson not leading the Nuggets to a championship have to do with Jsmith resigning with the Clippers? :roll:





No, he is valuable for other reasons besides his potential. Such as his current play and the money he brings in, just to start off. Contract situation as well. That is what his trade value is, along with his potential.

And yes, I can discredit the fact that you saying Smith reupping is likely because I just mentioned a handful of scenarios, in which many people, thought was likely and ended up failing.

:facepalm

Shawn Kemp

Amare Stoudemire

2 players who Blake gets compared to a lot.

both these guys were super hyped their first few years and had people thinking they had unlimited potential.

Both suffered injuries and were never the same player, players with BG's type of play style tend to break down over time. Therefore we shouldn't factor in Griffins potential in this hypothetical trade either then.

Your logic fails.

[qrich]

what the hell does allen Iverson not leading the Nuggets to a championship have to do with Jsmith resigning with the Clippers? :roll:






:facepalm

Shawn Kemp

Amare Stoudemire

2 players who Blake gets compared to a lot.

both these guys were super hyped their first few years and had people thinking they had unlimited potential.

Both suffered injuries and were never the same player, players with BG's type of play style tend to break down over time. Therefore we shouldn't factor in Griffins potential in this hypothetical trade either then.

Your logic fails.

Because that was likely to be happen, and it did not, just like its "likely", with nothing to back it up, that Smith will remain with the Clippers after becoming an unrestricted free agent.

And, like I said, potential is ALWAYS factored in trades. But, like I have already posted, it also has to do with the contract issue and marketability as well.

But I guess it is too difficult for you to comprehend

Edit: And what the hell would you bold something in my post which you do not respond to at all?

[KOBE143]

Steve Blake for Blake Griffin.. Clips will get a solid back up pg for Paul..

[Clippersfan86]

Madsen I think you're severely underrating not only the value but the game of Blake Griffin and how good he can be. He's nothing like Amare or Kemp. He's way hungrier than both and has a significantly better work ethic. He's been the first and last to leave the gym since he was drafted. Sure the other two PF's had elite skill sets/athleticism for PF's but they also had piss poor attitudes and work ethics so it's not remotely comparable.

[ralph_i_el]

:biggums:

Chris Paul is a proven All star / All pro in the league, that's a rare thing and you don't choose an unproven big man who's declined in each of his 3 years in the league over that.

I'm not sure there 1 GM who would take Griffin over CP3, i'm positive there is not. cp3 has proven time & time again that he can lead a team into the playoffs, Griffin has not.

And i don't think anybody ever really expected this to be one of the best pnr combo's of all time? Griffin had only 1 year of playing before cp3 came to town.. it's not like he was some proven top 10 player in the league by that time.

Besides, if you're a free agent who isn't a point guard are you really going to choose to go to the team led by Blake Griffin or the team led by Chris Paul?

I wonder if we poll'd Lebron, Durant, Kobe, and the other top players if they'd rather play with Paul or Griffin..

CP3 can attract other free agents, cp3 is a proven player in this league and the best pg playing right now, you act like bringing in a lesser player to play pg will make the clippers better?

Blake Grffin is the one who needs to adjust his game for cp3 b/c guess what? when BG was doing his own thing & getting stats the clippers were a joke, but with cp3 at the point they clips are a legit playoff team. Cp3 is a proven all NBA player, he's the best pg in the league and if he thinks ignoring Griffin is what is best for the team, then he's probrably right.

this proves you haven't watched any games this year. #'s lie. Griffin's shot has improved, and he has an elite handle and passing game for a big.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Madsen I think you're severely underrating not only the value but the game of Blake Griffin and how good he can be. He's nothing like Amare or Kemp. He's way hungrier than both and has a significantly better work ethic. He's been the first and last to leave the gym since he was drafted. Sure the other two PF's had elite skill sets/athleticism for PF's but they also had piss poor attitudes and work ethics so it's not remotely comparable.


Is that a fact? You're entire post is nothing but opinion and a very biased one at that.

How do you know how hungry Kemp & Amare were in the begining of their careers? Do you know that for a fact.

Are you really going to sit there and tell me that a player who was drafted straight out of high school wasn't hungry

? He played pretty damn well for a kid straight out of high school his rookie year, im sure that was due to his piss poor work etthic huh :confusedshrug:

and are you really going to sit there and say that somebody who came back from microfracture surgery has a piss poor attitude and bad work ethic

:rolleyes:

[TheMarkMadsen]

this proves you haven't watched any games this year. #'s lie. Griffin's shot has improved, and he has an elite handle and passing game for a big.

20 games doesn't change who i think the best pg in the league is :confusedshrug:

just last week ESPN had him in their top 10 mvp canidtates. I guess my opinion of him being the best all around pg in the league isn't too far off

[qrich]

Is that a fact? You're entire post is nothing but opinion and a very biased one at that.

Just like its a fact that Smith will "likely" reup with the Clips.

[ZaaaaaH]

Is that a fact? You're entire post is nothing but opinion and a very biased one at that.

How do you know how hungry Kemp & Amare were in the begining of their careers? Do you know that for a fact.

Are you really going to sit there and tell me that a player who was drafted straight out of high school wasn't hungry

? He played pretty damn well for a kid straight out of high school his rookie year, im sure that was due to his piss poor work etthic huh :confusedshrug:

and are you really going to sit there and say that somebody who came back from microfracture surgery has a piss poor attitude and bad work ethic

:rolleyes:


You are right about this post but you are comparing Blake to wrong players.

Blake has much higher IQ then both. Blake is not a One dimensional player like Kemp and Amare was their first 3 years.

Blakes potential is High VERY HIGH and is being over shadowed by his Dunks and CP3.

In the Other hand Amare was Benefited by Nash not held back like Blake.

[MiseryCityTexas]

marcus morris, patricia patterson, tony douglas and greg smith (maybe even throw in Terrence Jones or D-Mo) for air blake, some clipper scrub that never see playing time (Travis Leslie) and billups (free up playing time for bledsoe). **** wat ya heard. :rockon:

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Last season, I suggested the Clippers trade Blake Griffin to the Magic for Dwight Howard, to create one of the league's best duo's in Chris Paul + Dwight.

Then, either keep DeAndre short-term as a backup C, and enjoy the league's best 1-2 punch in the Center position, or trade him too.

I would have shooken that roster up, and ended up with Chris Paul and Dwight Howard in their primes + role players. That's a legit championship team.

I don't trust Griffin's knees. He's another season ending injury waiting to happen, and I don't like his game as much as I like Dwight's next to CP3.

[brandonislegend]

Last season, I suggested the Clippers trade Blake Griffin to the Magic for Dwight Howard, to create one of the league's best duo's in Chris Paul + Dwight.

Then, either keep DeAndre short-term as a backup C, and enjoy the league's best 1-2 punch in the Center position, or trade him too.

I would have shooken that roster up, and ended up with Chris Paul and Dwight Howard in their primes + role players. That's a legit championship team.

I don't trust Griffin's knees. He's another season ending injury waiting to happen, and I don't like his game as much as I like Dwight's next to CP3.

CP3 + Dwight would be unfair to the league so it will never happen for basketball reasons.

[joeyjoejoe]

I think clipps only players that should maybe be traded are buttler, green and jordan other then that they got a good thing going, filling seats and winning games if they stay healthy and odom keeps improving theyre legit contenders

[Clippersfan86]

You guys need to stick to watching more and offering less scenarios. Any of you saying Blake for Howard don't understand that trades have WAY more going on than talent. Dwight is a locker room cancer and would destroy the family environment this team has created. Not to mention he can walk in free agency and is not looking the same after back surgery. If Dwight was so great Lakers fans wouldn't already be fed up with his shit.

Madsen hunger is easy to guage. It's the guy in the gym before everybody else daily and the last to leave. Kemp and Amare were never that guy, Blake is. Not to mention Blake has a more unique and special skillset to begin with. Basketball IQ and court vision weren't strengths of either. Stop comparing just because they are elite dunkers.

[brandonislegend]

You guys need to stick to watching more and offering less scenarios. Any of you saying Blake for Howard don't understand that trades have WAY more going on than talent. Dwight is a locker room cancer and would destroy the family environment this team has created. Not to mention he can walk in free agency and is not looking the same after back surgery. If Dwight was so great Lakers fans wouldn't already be fed up with his shit.

Madsen hunger is easy to guage. It's the guy in the gym before everybody else daily and the last to leave. Kemp and Amare were never that guy, Blake is. Not to mention Blake has a more unique and special skillset to begin with. Basketball IQ and court vision weren't strengths of either. Stop comparing just because they are elite dunkers.

Amare and Griffins game are similar griffin is a better passer but amare hiys his fts, their offensive game and liability on defense is very similar.

[AussieG]

Griffin is young and isn't even finished developing yet.

[chazzy]

good ol amare and his lazy work ethic the other dayhttp://distilleryimage10.s3.amazonaws.com/bc98951c415611e28ad722000a9f1498_7.jpg

[Clippersfan86]

Amare's work ethic has been significantly better in NY. Blake as a rookie was already one of the hardest working players in the NBA.

[brandonislegend]

Amare's work ethic has been significantly better in NY. Blake as a rookie was already one of the hardest working players in the NBA.

I was always curious how the hell anyone not with the organization would know how hard someone works? Because of people inside the organization saying it? Of course they are going to say that about their own players. People read stuff on forums and assume its true or listen to "clippers" insider saying stuff even though it could be made up.

Just like Griffin's injury of course Clipper people are going to say he tore something when it simply was never true, he was benched in the playoffs because he was getting worked.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I was always curious how the hell anyone not with the organization would know how hard someone works? Because of people inside the organization saying it? Of course they are going to say that about their own players. People read stuff on forums and assume its true or listen to "clippers" insider saying stuff even though it could be made up.

Just like Griffin's injury of course Clipper people are going to say he tore something when it simply was never true, he was benched in the playoffs because he was getting worked.


This exactly. CF86 its disgusting how you devalue other players and their supposed "lack of work ethic" just to make BG look better.

CF86 you claimed that BG has been the first person in the gym and the last person to leave since his rookie year.. Do you know for a fact?

have you been to every clippers practice since BG's rookie year??

You sound like an idiot when you claim somebody like Amare, who has bounced back from numerous injuries has a "piss poor" work ethic :no:

[Darius]

From Chris Kaman last week (someone who has no reason to be nice to Blake or the Clippers):

“Let me tell you something, that guy works harder than anybody I’ve ever met — I’m talking about anybody I’ve ever met. He works harder than any of them,” Kaman said. “He comes back to the gym two and three times a day, he works the weights, he runs, the guy’s a freak. I don’t know how he can endure all that on his body, but he’s able to and he still comes out and he plays as hard as anybody I’ve ever seen for the 35 to 40 minutes he’s in the game.”

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/12/06/a-belief-blakes-game-is-on-the-rise/

[The Nets]

I was wondering when the Clippers will make the move. Let's face it, you know you have a PF who keeps declining since his rookie season, and you definitely want to trade him while he still has value. The way Blake Griffin degrades season after season makes it a rather urgent business, if you still wish to get some decent players from him.

[Bandito]

I am pretty sure I already post this but the Clippers are not trading nothing. if you see the numbers and the minutes before Paul came to the team you can see it is getting worse thanks to him making the pass to everybody on the team and all of them getting their numbers.

BG numbers are good anyways, the only bad thing about him is his defense (getting better every year) and his Ft's.

He is still in his third year, he only needs time to become better.

[qrich]

[QUOTE=Darius]From Chris Kaman last week (someone who has no reason to be nice to Blake or the Clippers):

[TheMarkMadsen]

And he has played with Elton Brand, who some called the hardest working power forward at the time to bot.

And I also just love how madsen keeps ignoring my posts.

what's the point of addressing you?

you talk yourself in circles.

You tell me that we can't factor in Smith's likeliness to resign in LA because some things that are "likely" to happen don't happen.

Well if we're not factoring in stuff that we believe is "likely" to happen, then we shouldn't factor in BG's potential b/c his potential is "likely" and not fact.

Obviously in a real life trade, potential is a huge factor, just like the possibility of player A resigning is a huge factor in a trade.

And if your reading comprehension was up to par you would have noticed that this entire thread is based of the premise that BG isn't ready to be a 2nd option on a championship team and that the Clippers should focus on builiding around CP3, reassuring he signs and tryin to win a Championship with CP3 while they can.

So, if you're still confused..

Premise:Clippers want to focus on Cp3 & make sure he resigns. They best way to do that is to build the team around him and give him the pieces to compete for a title right away. BG isn't ready to be a 2nd option on a championship team, so instead of waiting around on him to develope into that player, they should use his enormous trade value (some have even said in this very thread that he is considered "untouchable" so his trade value might as well be unlimited) and bring in the pieces that make the LAC title ready.

So, with that in mind, considering how well CP3 was able to do with the likes of Tyson Chandler & David West, i suggested as the first POSSIBLE trade scenerio be for an All star Power Forwad & and All star Center. Smith/Horford.

I'm not saying the Clippers should actually do this, i'm sure they want Blake on their team for his marketability alone forever, however, if they decided to make CP3 the face of the franchise & try to appease him and put the pieces around him to win a title before he turns 30 then trading BG for a boatload of talent or one or two great players, would be good way to go.

[Clippersfan86]

Blake with yet another 20/10/3 game in not too many minutes. I agree great time to trade him.

[Clippersfan86]

Madsen if the Clippers had to choose between Griffin and CP3 they are choosing Griffin as they should. He's their true and original "franchise" player. Not the best yet but the guy who really turned this franchise around and is easily the most marketable. Griffin easily gets the loudest applause during intros, not CP3.

Bottom line is the team would dump CP3 to make Griffin happy before they would dump Griffin to make CP3 happy or more successful in your little fantasy scenario.

[qrich]

what's the point of addressing you?

you talk yourself in circles.

You tell me that we can't factor in Smith's likeliness to resign in LA because some things that are "likely" to happen don't happen.

Well if we're not factoring in stuff that we believe is "likely" to happen, then we shouldn't factor in BG's potential b/c his potential is "likely" and not fact.

Obviously in a real life trade, potential is a huge factor, just like the possibility of player A resigning is a huge factor in a trade.

And if your reading comprehension was up to par you would have noticed that this entire thread is based of the premise that BG isn't ready to be a 2nd option on a championship team and that the Clippers should focus on builiding around CP3, reassuring he signs and tryin to win a Championship with CP3 while they can.

So, if you're still confused..

Premise:Clippers want to focus on Cp3 & make sure he resigns. They best way to do that is to build the team around him and give him the pieces to compete for a title right away. BG isn't ready to be a 2nd option on a championship team, so instead of waiting around on him to develope into that player, they should use his enormous trade value (some have even said in this very thread that he is considered "untouchable" so his trade value might as well be unlimited) and bring in the pieces that make the LAC title ready.

So, with that in mind, considering how well CP3 was able to do with the likes of Tyson Chandler & David West, i suggested as the first POSSIBLE trade scenerio be for an All star Power Forwad & and All star Center. Smith/Horford.

I'm not saying the Clippers should actually do this, i'm sure they want Blake on their team for his marketability alone forever, however, if they decided to make CP3 the face of the franchise & try to appease him and put the pieces around him to win a title before he turns 30 then trading BG for a boatload of talent or one or two great players, would be good way to go.


I lack reading comprehension yet you are the one that can't comprehend the fact that the scenario you are claiming to be likely has ZERO backup and I have provided factual events which many claimed to be likely which ended up being incorrect?

And on top of that, you keep saying ignore potential. Well that is fine and dandy as I have mentioned other reasons Clippers turn it down (contract, marketability, cohesiveness, etc.), yet you keep going back to potential and ignore the rest.

Let me try to make this easier for you to understand. Take away the potential, Blake still is the better player, who brings in more money due to his Mozgoving and his exposure when it comes to traveling time, and already has cohesiveness with Paul, Crawford, Vinny and everyone else.

Get it now? Or do I need to gift you a copy of hooked-on-phonics?




B-b-b-b-ut Smith is likely to resign in LA and potential doesn't matter....:banghead:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Madsen if the Clippers had to choose between Griffin and CP3 they are choosing Griffin as they should. He's their true and original "franchise" player. Not the best yet but the guy who really turned this franchise around and is easily the most marketable. Griffin easily gets the loudest applause during intros, not CP3.

Bottom line is the team would dump CP3 to make Griffin happy before they would dump Griffin to make CP3 happy or more successful in your little fantasy scenario.


So the Clippers would be better going forward with Griffin and no CP3 than they would be going forward with CP3 and no griffin?

Dude, i just saw you in another thread like yesterday stating that 30/30 NBA GM's would pick CP3 over BG as of RIGHT NOW.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I lack reading comprehension yet you are the one that can't comprehend the fact that the scenario you are claiming to be likely has ZERO backup and I have provided factual events which many claimed to be likely which ended up being incorrect?

And on top of that, you keep saying ignore potential. Well that is fine and dandy as I have mentioned other reasons Clippers turn it down (contract, marketability, cohesiveness, etc.), yet you keep going back to potential and ignore the rest.

Let me try to make this easier for you to understand. Take away the potential, Blake still is the better player, who brings in more money due to his Mozgoving and his exposure when it comes to traveling time, and already has cohesiveness with Paul, Crawford, Vinny and everyone else.

Get it now? Or do I need to gift you a copy of hooked-on-phonics?




B-b-b-b-ut Smith is likely to resign in LA and potential doesn't matter....:banghead:


you're lost.

you claim to have given "factual event" that should lead me to believe that Smith wouldn't resign in LA.

Allen Iverson not leading the Nuggets to a title has nothing to do with anything :facepalm


and for the LAST TIME YOU you ignorant person, the only reason i'm saying to forget about potential is b/c you're saying forget about Smith resigning..

We are assuming that Smith will re sign just as we're are ASSUMING BG lives up to this potential. Understand?

and guess what you ignorant person? the trade isn't BG for Smith straight up..

It's Horford AND Smith and Kyle Korver :applause:

so sure, BG for Smith is a HORRIBLE TRADE for the Clippers, thats fine if you think so, but act like the LAC are getting ripped off when their getting Al Horford and Josh Smith in a trade is just :facepalm


The one Hawks fan to post in this thread thought the Hawks were getting ripped off by trading Horford & Smith for Griffin?

You act like Josh Smith & AL Horford is a horrible trade for the Clippers.

[Clippersfan86]

So the Clippers would be better going forward with Griffin and no CP3 than they would be going forward with CP3 and no griffin?

Dude, i just saw you in another thread like yesterday stating that 30/30 NBA GM's would pick CP3 over BG as of RIGHT NOW.

Yes if they needed to play tomorrow 30/30 GM's would pick CP3. Just like 30/30 GM's would take Blake Griffin as a franchise player to build around going forward. No guarantee that he will ever be as good as CP3 but he does have the same top 5 all time at his position potential CP3 does AND fills more seats/draws more crowds.

VALUE wise which is what you're talking about Griffin is worth more than CP3 which is what you're not getting. You're thinking like a fan, not a GM.

[qrich]

you're lost.

you claim to have given "factual event" that should lead me to believe that Smith wouldn't resign in LA.

Allen Iverson not leading the Nuggets to a title has nothing to do with anything :facepalm


and for the LAST TIME YOU you ignorant person, the only reason i'm saying to forget about potential is b/c you're saying forget about Smith resigning..

and guess what you ignorant person? the trade isn't BG for Smith straight up..

It's Horford AND Smith and Kyle Korver :applause:

so sure, BG for Smith is a HORRIBLE TRADE for the Clippers, thats fine if you think so, but act like the LAC are getting ripped off when their getting Al Horford and Josh Smith in a trade is just :facepalm


The one Hawks fan to post in this thread thought the Hawks were getting ripped off by trading Horford & Smith for Griffin?

Wow, you really do need some comprehension skills. I gave you factual events that were likely to occur, that did not. Therefore, eliminating you using Smith being likely to resign (with nothing in the slightest to back it up) with the Clips as any positive in the trade.

And read everything over kid. Even if you eliminate potential, Blake, ALONE, is vastly superior to all three of those COMBINED in marketability, cohesiveness and contract situation.

To boot, you continue to prove that you either can not read, or have the memory of a $.50 goldfish from PetCo. Value of players isn't everything in a trade, as the value might be there, but when you consider everything else (CONTRACTS: Blake + DJ. Marketability: Blake + DJ. Potential: Blake + DJ. CHEMISTRY & COHESIVENESS: Blake + DJ), it shows why the Hawks would need to be the ones adding incentive. And it isn't Smith + Horford for Blake, its Smith + Horford + Korver for Blake + DJ. Why ignore the whole trade now?

Don't know how to make it easier for you kid.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yes if they needed to play tomorrow 30/30 GM's would pick CP3. Just like 30/30 GM's would take Blake Griffin as a franchise player to build around going forward. No guarantee that he will ever be as good as CP3 but he does have the same top 5 all time at his position potential CP3 does AND fills more seats/draws more crowds.

VALUE wise which is what you're talking about Griffin is worth more than CP3 which is what you're not getting. You're thinking like a fan, not a GM.

and i'm the one thinking like a fan :lol

anyways, i think we're arguing two different points.

what you're not understanding is CP3 is to the level that BG has the potential to one day get to, so instead of waiting around for that, the clippers "should" send out BG & use his huge trade value to bring in players that fit around CP3 better.

i feel like i'm talking to a fanboy. I've yet to say anything about Griffin in a negative way, or that isn't true. i've said that in my opinion he isn't a go to player in the playoffs yet, i've said that he's STATISTICALLY decined the past 3 seasons

yet i've also admitted he has huge potential, is a very good player at the moment, and has the potential to be a go to guy. I think BG's a good player and i've stated that throughout this thread.

I just think that a team built around CP3 gives you a better chance of competing for titles RIGHT NOW then a team built around Blake Griffin.. that is all

but with all that, you guys have came at me ad hominem attacks, pointless name calling/negging like i'm sitting here taking a giant sh*t on BG and making fun of your mother :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wow, you really do need some comprehension skills. I gave you factual events that were likely to occur, that did not. Therefore, eliminating you using Smith being likely to resign (with nothing in the slightest to back it up) with the Clips as any positive in the trade.

And read everything over kid. Even if you eliminate potential, Blake, ALONE, is vastly superior to all three of those COMBINED in marketability, cohesiveness and contract situation.

To boot, you continue to prove that you either can not read, or have the memory of a $.50 goldfish from PetCo. Value of players isn't everything in a trade, as the value might be there, but when you consider everything else (CONTRACTS: Blake + DJ. Marketability: Blake + DJ. Potential: Blake + DJ. CHEMISTRY & COHESIVENESS: Blake + DJ), it shows why the Hawks would need to be the ones adding incentive. And it isn't Smith + Horford for Blake, its Smith + Horford + Korver for Blake + DJ. Why ignore the whole trade now?

Don't know how to make it easier for you kid.


we're talking about giving a team a better chance to win a championships, not selling tickets, ATL might be more interested in selling tickets than competing for a title right now and will have the patience to let BG grow, which is why i picked them as a suitor for Griffen.

and i like how "everything" else you factor in all consist of BG + DJ, maybe you should factor in that Horford & Smith are playing like the best frontcourt in the NBA right now and are leading their team to record better than their talent indicates? Maybe you should factor in Horfords contact and how reasonable it is for a player of his level??

Like i just said, I think a team built around CP3 gives you a better chance of winning a title RIGHT NOW than a team built around BG

which is why i suggested trading Blake and building around CP3, the reason for trading Blake? He gives the chance to bring in almost anybody you want to put around CP3

if you disagree with that then whatever but thats my opinion

[Clippersfan86]

Based on what? Most Clippers fans agree and know that the offense runs best through Griffin, not CP3. Not to mention Griffin has been more valuable than CP3 this year defensively. Bottom line is I disagree the team is best built around CP3 for sure because Blake hasn't had a chance to prove it's him and CP3 hasn't done anything yet in terms of team success.

Sure he had some crappy teams but it's stupid to say you can build a title contender around a player that hasn't even been to the conference finals in 6 or 7 seasons. Blake has improved every single year and if you follow the team you'll easily see why raw stats go down. Each year Blake's team takes a huge leap talent wise. Rookie year to second year and now this year.

Also you said trade Blake for win now pieces but the Clippers have the best balance in the NBA of high upside, young pieces AND older, win now vets. So why do we need more "proven" players when Blake is already a top 5 PF and has the potential to be a top 5 PF EVER. Sure the combined 3 players you're proposing may give a bit more now but if Blake becomes next in line to the Barkley's and Malone's which it's looking like... him and CP3 can win multiple titles TOGETHER.

BTW I'm not personally attacking you or negging you at all. I'm simply telling you that I can tell you haven't watched Blake as much as you claim. Blake in this 7 game win streak is our best player (yes better than CP3) and has been pretty dominant. He's finally healthy and back to his 20/10/3 games BUT with better free throw shooting, MUCH better defense and a pretty reliable jumper. I can't fathom how good he can be by next year.

Clippers need to stick with their family style environment in the locker room and guys who work their asses off all summer together and want to grow as a unit. No need to break anything up when you're an elite team with tons of room for growth and future cap flexibility. Clippers are in a perfect situation going forward.

[qrich]

we're talking about giving a team a better chance to win a championships, not selling tickets, ATL might be more interested in selling tickets than competing for a title right now and will have the patience to let BG grow, which is why i picked them as a suitor for Griffen.

and i like how "everything" else you factor in all consist of BG + DJ, maybe you should factor in that Horford & Smith are playing like the best frontcourt in the NBA right now and are leading their team to record better than their talent indicates? Maybe you should factor in Horfords contact and how reasonable it is for a player of his level??

Like i just said, I think a team built around CP3 gives you a better chance of winning a title RIGHT NOW than a team built around BG

which is why i suggested trading Blake and building around CP3, the reason for trading Blake? He gives the chance to bring in almost anybody you want to put around CP3

if you disagree with that then whatever but thats my opinion

And that trade does NOT increase the Clippers chances for a championship, and even if you want to agree that it does, the increase would be so minimal that losing out on Blake's potential, marketability, contract and cohesiveness with Jordan and the rest of the squad is not worth it for an unrestricted free agent and a center, while probably top 7 at his position, that would be considered undersized in the West.

You just can't admit the fact that the trade, when looked at all angles is bad for the Clippers, so you kept nitpicking on what to reply too. Just sad.

Where is any sort of factual evidence showing Smith's likeliness or showing that this will increase any sort of championship aspirations?

And as far as the everything else goes, Horford is also considered in that nimwad. But hey, Steph Curry and David Lee are leading their teams to be a better record than talent indicates. While Kobe can't lead a team with the leagues best center to a .500 record. Kobe + Artest for Curry + Jefferson :bowdown:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Based on what? Most Clippers fans agree and know that the offense runs best through Griffin, not CP3. Not to mention Griffin has been more valuable than CP3 this year defensively. Bottom line is I disagree the team is best built around CP3 for sure because Blake hasn't had a chance to prove it's him and CP3 hasn't done anything yet in terms of team success.

Sure he had some crappy teams but it's stupid to say you can build a title contender around a player that hasn't even been to the conference finals in 6 or 7 seasons. Blake has improved every single year and if you follow the team you'll easily see why raw stats go down. Each year Blake's team takes a huge leap talent wise. Rookie year to second year and now this year.

Also you said trade Blake for win now pieces but the Clippers have the best balance in the NBA of high upside, young pieces AND older, win now vets. So why do we need more "proven" players when Blake is already a top 5 PF and has the potential to be a top 5 PF EVER. Sure the combined 3 players you're proposing may give a bit more now but if Blake becomes next in line to the Barkley's and Malone's which it's looking like... him and CP3 can win multiple titles TOGETHER.

BTW I'm not personally attacking you or negging you at all. I'm simply telling you that I can tell you haven't watched Blake as much as you claim. Blake in this 7 game win streak is our best player (yes better than CP3) and has been pretty dominant. He's finally healthy and back to his 20/10/3 games BUT with better free throw shooting, MUCH better defense and a pretty reliable jumper. I can't fathom how good he can be by next year.

Clippers need to stick with their family style environment in the locker room and guys who work their asses off all summer together and want to grow as a unit. No need to break anything up when you're an elite team with tons of room for growth and future cap flexibility. Clippers are in a perfect situation going forward.


Based on CP3 leading multiple teams with a lack of talent into the playoffs.

Based on CP3 HAS led a team to the WCF

Based on CP3 when healthy has proved year after year after year that he is a top 2 PG.

Based CP3 has proven that he can & will bring it in the playoffs.

i cant believe how much you devalue CP3.

But look man, if you think BG is on his way to becoming a top 5 GOAT PF, then i can understand why to me it seems that you overrate BG's potential immensly.

It's not a gurantee he will though, there have been many PF's with Blakes style of play that have exploded onto the scene and faded out, and even with his work ethic you can't rule out the risk of potential injury when the guy has already sat out an entire year prior b/c of his knee problems.

I think adding Horford & Smith to the Clippers while losing BG & DJ could put the Clippers over the top, they'd have the best frontcourt in the leauge, both bigs can shoot midrange j's, play defense & rebound, combine that with the best passing PG in the league (can we atleast agree on that?) and i think they can beat OKC.

Griffin may end up becoming the player you think he will, hopefully for you CP3 thinks the same & will re sign.

[TheMarkMadsen]

And that trade does NOT increase the Clippers chances for a championship, and even if you want to agree that it does, the increase would be so minimal that losing out on Blake's potential, marketability, contract and cohesiveness with Jordan and the rest of the squad is not worth it for an unrestricted free agent and a center, while probably top 7 at his position, that would be considered undersized in the West.

You just can't admit the fact that the trade, when looked at all angles is bad for the Clippers, so you kept nitpicking on what to reply too. Just sad.

Where is any sort of factual evidence showing Smith's likeliness or showing that this will increase any sort of championship aspirations?

And as far as the everything else goes, Horford is also considered in that nimwad. But hey, Steph Curry and David Lee are leading their teams to be a better record than talent indicates. While Kobe can't lead a team with the leagues best center to a .500 record. Kobe + Artest for Curry + Jefferson :bowdown:

He's consistently a top player on a team which consistently makes the playoffs.

Put him on a deeper team with the best set up point in the league, along with Horford they'd make a great trio IMO.

anyways guy, the ship has sailed on you grasping the concept of this thread or what i'm trying to discuss.

I think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning titles than building around Griffin.

The atlanta trade isn't what i think is best, just an example of how much talent i believe they can get back.

If you think building around Griffin is better than building around CP3 thats cool, tell me why.

but if you're gonna keep coming at me with the insults and name calling you can just leave that stuff at home, i'm here discusing why i think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning short term b/c i belive CP3 is ready to be the # 1 guy on a championship team.

If you wanna talk ball thats cool, if you wanna insult people get on FB or something.

[Clippersfan86]

Again you prove that you have flawed and unrealistic expectations of Blake. He got one year to prove something with a decimated roster and somehow carry a subpar team to the playoffs? Bottom line is Blake hasn't even had a chance to prove anything because the team went from lottery team to loaded title contender in two years.

CP3 on the other hand had 6 or 7 seasons to lead his team and while I think he had a subpar team most of the time and was an legit top 2-3 player most of that time.. he still didn't even lead the team to the WCF so the concept that he's proven to lead his teams into the finals or something just doesn't make sense.

I don't think you understand Blake's upside and like most people have turned on him you're UNDER valuing him. It's a joke that you don't feel a career 20+/11+/3+ player who's still raw and improving who's going to start his career with 3 straight all star games... has a very good chance to be one of the GOAT PF's. Guys like Kemp took 4 or 5 years to get to Blake's current level and I'd confidently say Blake this year with his D and shot is greater than ANY form of McDyess, Amare, Larry Johnson,Kemp or any of these tier 2 or 3 PF's in NBA history..

[qrich]

He's consistently a top player on a team which consistently makes the playoffs.

Put him on a deeper team with the best set up point in the league, along with Horford they'd make a great trio IMO.

anyways guy, the ship has sailed on you grasping the concept of this thread or what i'm trying to discuss.

I think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning titles than building around Griffin.

The atlanta trade isn't what i think is best, just an example of how much talent i believe they can get back.

If you think building around Griffin is better than building around CP3 thats cool, tell me why.

but if you're gonna keep coming at me with the insults and name calling you can just leave that stuff at home, i'm here discusing why i think building around CP3 gives you a better chance at winning short term b/c i belive CP3 is ready to be the # 1 guy on a championship team.

If you wanna talk ball thats cool, if you wanna insult people get on FB or something.

He has been in the league longer than Blake, missed the playoffs his first three years, played in an inferior conference, and minus this and past season, had a vastly more talented roster. His numbers, however, have dipped in the post-season, so there goes the go-to point. Horford hasn't missed the post-season as of yet, but, like Smith, has had superior rosters and also had his stats dip.

He was on a deeper team, might not have had the leagues best point, but he was, so there goes that. And the rest is also the same speculation everyone had about Blake + Paul being the leagues best P&R duo since Stock-Malone.

I have never said Clippers should build around Blake over Paul, just said your premise is incorrect and asked you to show an example. The example you showed did not improve the Clippers chances of winning a championship, and if they did, the difference is so microscopic that it is not worth losing out on Blake's contract (Smith is a free agent), marketability, potential & cohesiveness, among other things. Yet, you were not able to respond to every reason why Clippers would not do that and/or nitpicked/went on tangents.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Again you prove that you have flawed and unrealistic expectations of Blake. He got one year to prove something with a decimated roster and somehow carry a subpar team to the playoffs? Bottom line is Blake hasn't even had a chance to prove anything because the team went from lottery team to loaded title contender in two years.

CP3 on the other hand had 6 or 7 seasons to lead his team and while I think he had a subpar team most of the time and was an legit top 2-3 player most of that time.. he still didn't even lead the team to the WCF so the concept that he's proven to lead his teams into the finals or something just doesn't make sense.

I don't think you understand Blake's upside and like most people have turned on him you're UNDER valuing him. It's a joke that you don't feel a career 20+/11+/3+ player who's still raw and improving who's going to start his career with 3 straight all star games... has a very good chance to be one of the GOAT PF's. Guys like Kemp took 4 or 5 years to get to Blake's current level and I'd confidently say Blake this year with his D and shot is greater than ANY form of McDyess, Amare, Larry Johnson,Kemp or any of these tier 2 or 3 PF's in NBA history..


I am not discrediting Blake Griffin by listing reasons for why i think Chris Paul can lead a championship team?

I don' think Blake Griffin can lead a championship team RIGHT NOW, or for the next 2 years. But do i think Blake Griffin has the POTENTIAL to eventually reach that level? Yeah

I don't understand the logic of "TheMarkMadsen doesn't ride BG's ********, thinks Cp3 is the better player, therefor he clearly must be a BG hater"

I think, Griffins a good player, has the potential to be a great great great player.

However, i think CP3 is a great great great player right now, and could lead a team to a championship.

Which is why i suggested building around him.

thats all :confusedshrug:

[Clippersfan86]

He has been in the league longer than Blake, missed the playoffs his first three years, played in an inferior conference, and minus this and past season, had a vastly more talented roster. His numbers, however, have dipped in the post-season, so there goes the go-to point. Horford hasn't missed the post-season as of yet, but, like Smith, has had superior rosters and also had his stats dip.

He was on a deeper team, might not have had the leagues best point, but he was, so there goes that. And the rest is also the same speculation everyone had about Blake + Paul being the leagues best P&R duo since Stock-Malone.

I have never said Clippers should build around Blake over Paul, just said your premise is incorrect and asked you to show an example. The example you showed did not improve the Clippers chances of winning a championship, and if they did, the difference is so microscopic that it is not worth losing out on Blake's contract (Smith is a free agent), marketability, potential & cohesiveness, among other things. Yet, you were not able to respond to every reason why Clippers would not do that and/or nitpicked/went on tangents.

Lakers fans should have more to worry about then picking apart the Clippers squad in weird trade scenarios IMO. I don't get his angle to pound these things in so much when Blake has been our best player lately and we are on a big wing streak and one of the best in the west with tons of room for growth.

It would be like last year suggesting that the Thunder should trade Westbrook for Rondo and KG. Maybe it would increase wins for a year or two but it's bad long term, risky as hell and not worth breaking up outstanding team chemistry on and off the court, especially after a great start.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He has been in the league longer than Blake, missed the playoffs his first three years, played in an inferior conference, and minus this and past season, had a vastly more talented roster. His numbers, however, have dipped in the post-season, so there goes the go-to point. Horford hasn't missed the post-season as of yet, but, like Smith, has had superior rosters and also had his stats dip.

He was on a deeper team, might not have had the leagues best point, but he was, so there goes that. And the rest is also the same speculation everyone had about Blake + Paul being the leagues best P&R duo since Stock-Malone.

I have never said Clippers should build around Blake over Paul, just said your premise is incorrect and asked you to show an example. The example you showed did not improve the Clippers chances of winning a championship, and if they did, the difference is so microscopic that it is not worth losing out on Blake's contract (Smith is a free agent), marketability, potential & cohesiveness, among other things. Yet, you were not able to respond to every reason why Clippers would not do that and/or nitpicked/went on tangents.

Eh, i don't really bother with Smith not making the playoffs the first 3 years, he was coming out of highschool (Blake played 2 years in college i think) and if i remember correctly he was going to a pretty bad team.He also made the playoffs at the same age that blake griffin made his first playoffs appearance (22) You're other points on smith i'll give you that, he hasn't been shit in the playoffs though, slightly lower rebound numbers and scoring, however if he was playing alongside a pas first point guard instead of a shoot first shoot second sg those numbers might change a little.

Is the bold your only reasons for why you think building around griffin is better than bulding around cp3 to win titles asap?

[qrich]

Eh, i don't really bother with Smith not making the playoffs the first 3 years, he was coming out of highschool (Blake played 2 years in college i think) and if i remember correctly he was going to a pretty bad team.He also made the playoffs at the same age that blake griffin made his first playoffs appearance (22) You're other points on smith i'll give you that, he hasn't been shit in the playoffs though, slightly lower rebound numbers and scoring, however if he was playing alongside a pas first point guard instead of a shoot first shoot second sg those numbers might change a little.

Is the bold your only reasons for why you think building around griffin is better than bulding around cp3 to win titles asap?

I have never stated that Clippers would be better off winning titles with Blake over Paul. In fact, I believe I have been the most critical of any of the regular Clipper fans on Blake on this forum. When I did a mock for the 09 draft, I believe, I wanted Greg Monroe over Blake Griffin due to the fact I thought, at that point, that Blake got buy in college due to his strength and athleticism and did not believe it would translate well into the pros. But I was totally incorrect on that aspect as Blake has shown he has high IQ and is as big a workhorse as Elton Brand was reported to be and is improving his weakest areas, such as his defense and jumper. Just needs the confidence now.

I just don't believe that trading Griffin would get the Clippers closer to the promised land unless they get someone LeBron or totally rape the other side.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I have never stated that Clippers would be better off winning titles with Blake over Paul. In fact, I believe I have been the most critical of any of the regular Clipper fans on Blake on this forum. When I did a mock for the 09 draft, I believe, I wanted Greg Monroe over Blake Griffin due to the fact I thought, at that point, that Blake got buy in college due to his strength and athleticism and did not believe it would translate well into the pros. But I was totally incorrect on that aspect as Blake has shown he has high IQ and is as big a workhorse as Elton Brand was reported to be and is improving his weakest areas, such as his defense and jumper. Just needs the confidence now.

I just don't believe that trading Griffin would get the Clippers closer to the promised land unless they get someone LeBron or totally rape the other side.


Broseph, this is what i've been trying to say this whole time, they could easily rip a team off and get assets upon assets for BG alone.

why are we arguing if we both agree that it wouldn't be a bad trade if they were able to completly rip the other team off?

I'm talking really rip them off.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bump. Reggie tonight stated what I've been saying since last year. Clips aren't winnin in the playoffs if Griffin doesn't develop a jumper or post game. It didnt look like he worked on a single thing this summer

[TexasBloodMoney]

Bump. Reggie tonight stated what I've been saying since last year. Clips aren't winnin in the playoffs if Griffin doesn't develop a jumper or post game. It didnt look like he worked on a single thing this summer

He got dominated by Jordan Hill, who is a phenomenal hustle player but if Blake Griffin is supposed to be a franchise player, that can't happen.

Clippers are yet again a soft team.

[salwan]

He gets them $$, because he's a highlight reel.

But I agree. If he can't use his athletic ability in a fundamental post game, or develop a jumper, he'll always be good only for put backs, dunks and alley oops. U can't win in the playoffs with such limited repertoire.

In addition, he's not a good defender or rim protector for his physical ability. He doesn't like to get dirty.

[rodman91]

Who would care about Clippers if they don't have Griffin.

He is the face of NBA along with couple of names. It doesn't even matter if he is not as good as he is told.

[Akrazotile]

This current Clippers team isn't winning any championships with its current roster. They've got some solid pieces and one of if not the best point guard in the entire league and they should focus on building around Chris Paul, and IMO Blake is not the guy to do it.

Grffin is a good, exciting young player but you are not going to be winning any championships with him as your second option. Griffin is not a guy you can depend on for points in the paint during crucial moments or a guy you can rely on to get his and create his own shot in the post during the playoffs. His stats are nice but they can be misleading, they are empty in a lot of aspects & Blake Griffin's sucess does not always equal Clippers sucess aswell.

Also, Blake Griffins trade value is probrably one of the highest in the league due to his outstanding popularity. The value that he actually brings to a team isn't ANYWHERE near his current market value, this would allow the Clippers to bring in an outstanding amount of pieces.

I'm sure there are a number of teams that would be willing to overpay for BG & give up a lot of talent in order to get him. He will put buts in the seats, i could see a team like Atlanta jumping all over a chance to bring in BG.

The Clippers would be better suited to bring in a guy who fits in better with CP3 & is also defensive minded. J Smoove comes to mind, and with Griffins trade value the Clippers would easily be able to attain a draft pick and some other solid role players to place around Cp3 if they were to trade Griffin.


Someone literally said this :roll:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Its true though, they need to trade Blake Griffin for David West, the latter fits better with CP3.

[Rose'sACL]

Its true though, they need to trade Blake Griffin for David West, the latter fits better with CP3.
west will be on KG's current level in a couple of years.

[tgan3]

Its true though, they need to trade Blake Griffin for David West, the latter fits better with CP3.

WHAT??? BG >>> David West, and he will only get better and better

[Akrazotile]

Its true though, they need to trade Blake Griffin for David West, the latter fits better with CP3.


You mean West can stop CP3 from making a trifecta of game-losing mistakes in the final minute of a make-or-break game 5?

Damn. David West :bowdown:

[hawksdogsbraves]

Blake is obviously much better than current KG, but still, he is completely invisible down the stretch of big games. His strength is in the open court, which shuts down in the playoffs. He struggles in the half court and in FT shooting, which are paramount in the playoffs.

He's a regular season player, he can never be your go to guy down the stretch in playoff games.

[Akrazotile]

Blake is obviously much better than current KG, but still, he is completely invisible down the stretch of big games. His strength is in the open court, which shuts down in the playoffs. He struggles in the half court and in FT shooting, which are paramount in the playoffs.

He's a regular season player, he can never be your go to guy down the stretch in playoff games.


Someone has not been watching..