Lebron James will never surpass Michael Jordan

[TinselTime12]

True or False?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

can't say but it's very unlikely.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Leshortcut denied any chance at that the moment he made the decision, a while before he single-handedly costed his stacked team the NBA Finals so this is not even a remotely valid question. 0% chance. none. nada.

[HEAT111]

It's not the matter of true or false. There's no substantial facts that exist.

If Lebron would have won the DPOY, All-Star MVP and Scoring Title last seaon with the Gold Medal. Then he's in that conversation. As for now, NO.

Not even close.

[ripthekik]

his 2011 finals performance, and the fact that he joined Wade and Bosh will forever separate him. end of story.

[AngelEyes]

can't say but it's very unlikely.

This. Can't say definitively but odds are against it.

[TinselTime12]

It's not the matter of true or false. There's no substantial facts that exist.

If Lebron would have won the DPOY, All-Star MVP and Scoring Title last seaon with the Gold Medal. Then he's in that conversation. As for now, NO.

Not even close.
:oldlol:

[Just2McFly]

hi rg:)

[MetsPackers]

I think he can. He hold all all sorts of records and if he gets 6 rings there's no reason why he can't have an argument. I'm not saying it's going to happen, just that he still has a chance with where he is right now

[Mr. Incredible]

LeBron will end up the 2nd greatest... He's just getting started which is scary.. A tad behind the GOAT

[Micku]

He has the potential to do it if he continues to keep playing at a elite level.

At the same time though, I don't know about his legacy. He had some hiccups in the finals, and he joined Wade. Nowadays, Wade is shell of his former self. So, he has that advantage.

But one thing is for sure though. He doesn't really have the skillset that Jordan had just yet. It doesn't matter for him since he'll get his percentage more often than not.

I think his legacy won't surpass Jordan (we'll see in the future). But he could play at a super elite level like he was doing last year and this year.

[pauk]

There is potential/time and he certainly is on pace if he continues to do what he does.... He is 27 and has for example 3 mvps, 1 fmvp, 1 ring... Jordan by that age had only 1 mvp...

[rmt]

Doesn't he have to worry about passing about 9 people BEFORE he worries about MJ?

[andgar923]

True or False?

Nobody from this generation will surpass Michael Jordan.

Fixed

[ihoopallday]

Nobody from this generation will surpass Michael Jordan.

Fixed

Agreed :applause:

[TinselTime12]

Doesn't he have to worry about passing about 9 people BEFORE he worries about MJ?
Nope, just MJ.

[ChrisPosh]

You can't really comment on someone's legacy while it's still being made, it is only when all is said and done can we evaluate how he compares to the all time greats.

Perhaps in 20 years time, people will look back on the 2012 finals as the turning point for LeBron. All depends on how he finishes out the latter half of his career. Jordan and the Bulls were perennial losers until they acquired Horace Grant and Pippen (and later again with the GOAT rebounder Rodman), but people disregard those years as just "Jordan's early struggles". The same could be said for LeBron (for example, I don't see how carrying his sh*t Cavs team to a finals loss when he was only a baby at 22 years old can be counted AGAINST him), but at this point we will all have to see how it plays out.

[KungFuJoe]

In other breaking news...water is wet.

[2swift4u]

I don't think he or anybody else will surpass MJ. But to say Lebron won't because he joined Wade in Miami isn't a real reason because the first two seasons the Miami team was worse than MJ's Bulls imo.

[TheBigVeto]

True

[KOBE143]

nah.. Only the Great Lord Black Mamba will dethrone the real KING..

[Micku]

You can't really comment on someone's legacy while it's still being made, it is only when all is said and done can we evaluate how he compares to the all time greats.

Perhaps in 20 years time, people will look back on the 2012 finals as the turning point for LeBron. All depends on how he finishes out the latter half of his career. Jordan and the Bulls were perennial losers until they acquired Horace Grant and Pippen (and later again with the GOAT rebounder Rodman), but people disregard those years as just "Jordan's early struggles". The same could be said for LeBron (for example, I don't see how carrying his sh*t Cavs team to a finals loss when he was only a baby at 22 years old can be counted AGAINST him), but at this point we will all have to see how it plays out.

I think it's more like how he performed. MJ when he was 22/23 years old was averaging 43.7 ppg on 50% on the best defensive team (at the time) and one of the best teams of all time (if not the best) against the 86 Celtics. LeBron James accomplishment was overachieving in 2007. He had a great game against the Pistons that lead them to win the series, but was destroyed completely by the Spurs. That was forgettable.

The 2011 finals counted more against him than the 2007 one IMO. He was the third option basically on his team that series. 17.8 ppg on 48% shooting. Very disappointing. Especially since he made the whole "decision" and joined up with Wade and Bosh.

[red1]

true. mj's career is untouchable

[Inactive]

True.

I'm sure that some people will consider him greater, but he's not going to be consensus GOAT. Jordan wins on stats, rings, dramatic moments, perceived clutchness, media praise, (it seems to me) pleasing style/perceived skill, and the respect of his peers. Maybe Lebron can catch up in a few of those areas, but I think he's too deep in his career to match Jordan in all of them.

[OmniStrife]

He needs the regular stuff like more FMVPs and MVPs...

But most of all he needs them DPOY awards to even get close to MJ...

[TheWINdyCity]

There is potential/time and he certainly is on pace if he continues to do what he does.... He is 27 and has for example 3 mvps, 1 fmvp, 1 ring... Jordan by that age had only 1 mvp...

out of curiosity when do you think lebron's athleticism will seriously decline? (age wise)

[Breezy]

My two cents.

This is just my opinion so feel free to infer that I have homosexual tendencies as your rebuttal but also address some of the content of my argument.

As a player Lebron Has already demonstrated that he is not as good as Jordan was. I'm not talking about legacy or rankings or anything like that, I'm talking about pure basketball skill. OFFENSIVELY Of course Jordan is better, His mid range game was better, his footwork, his handles were better, His post up game was MUCH better, and the 3 point shooting is a wash. DEFENSIVELY There is a real debate to be had. I think Jordan was clearly the better One one one defender, but lebron can cover a wider rage of players and still hold his own so it's sort of a value judgment at that point.

The other elements of the game: Everyone says Lebron is a better rebounder but he plays a forward position and is 2 inches taller so he should be getting more rebounds. I Think as far as the skill of rebounding goes Jordan was better, he had a better nose for the ball. But I'm not married to that opinion. I could be talked out of it. Passing/court vision is where Lebron is CLEARLY superior to MJ, which is impressive because Jordan was very good in that department. Lebron however has superior passing ability even when compared with most point guards.

As far as the legacy goes I think the thing that separates Jordan from Lebron and EVERYONE else (Yes even you Kobe) is the consistency. There are plenty of individual games that players have that are every bit as good as some MJ games. Or sometimes even better. Kobe's 62 in 3 quarters. Lebron at Detroit game 5.... But Jordan never ever took a night off. His bad games were few and far between and he never gave the impression that there was anything else on his mind other than the destruction of the other team.

Last year Deron Williams had a 57 point 7 assist 6 rebound game... Every bit as good as any Jordan performace. The difference is No one was worried about him doing it again the next night. with Jordan it was a real possibility.

[Breezy]

More to the point of the original question. No I don't think Lebron will ever pass Jordan in the minds of the public. Jordan being the goat is so cemented in the public's mind that only a long time or a Significantly better player could unseat him. Lebron is on the scene too soon and if he is better ( I don't think he is) then he's not much better.... But don't worry. 50 years from now Jordan will have faded out of every one's mind and some new kid will lighting everyone up and being called the greatest. And when we say to our grandkids. "This punk couldnt hold a candle to Micheal Jordan!" They'll say "Shut up old man!, Jordan played in a weak ass era, now go take your medicine and be quiet or Ill put you in a home."

[Sharmer]

MJ changed Basketball, he was main reason for the increase in global popularity of the game, there can only be one.

[Mamba]

You can't really comment on someone's legacy while it's still being made, it is only when all is said and done can we evaluate how he compares to the all time greats.

Perhaps in 20 years time, people will look back on the 2012 finals as the turning point for LeBron. All depends on how he finishes out the latter half of his career. Jordan and the Bulls were perennial losers until they acquired Horace Grant and Pippen (and later again with the GOAT rebounder Rodman), but people disregard those years as just "Jordan's early struggles". The same could be said for LeBron (for example, I don't see how carrying his sh*t Cavs team to a finals loss when he was only a baby at 22 years old can be counted AGAINST him), but at this point we will all have to see how it plays out.
im 22 now. could not imagine what it would feel like to have to play one of the best NBA teams ever and having the entire media watching me.

id probably handle it terribly and tell everybody to go **** themselves

[2swift4u]

My two cents.

This is just my opinion so feel free to infer that I have homosexual tendencies as your rebuttal but also address some of the content of my argument.

As a player Lebron Has already demonstrated that he is not as good as Jordan was. I'm not talking about legacy or rankings or anything like that, I'm talking about pure basketball skill. OFFENSIVELY Of course Jordan is better, His mid range game was better, his footwork, his handles were better, His post up game was MUCH better, and the 3 point shooting is a wash. DEFENSIVELY There is a real debate to be had. I think Jordan was clearly the better One one one defender, but lebron can cover a wider rage of players and still hold his own so it's sort of a value judgment at that point.

The other elements of the game: Everyone says Lebron is a better rebounder but he plays a forward position and is 2 inches taller so he should be getting more rebounds. I Think as far as the skill of rebounding goes Jordan was better, he had a better nose for the ball. But I'm not married to that opinion. I could be talked out of it. Passing/court vision is where Lebron is CLEARLY superior to MJ, which is impressive because Jordan was very good in that department. Lebron however has superior passing ability even when compared with most point guards.

As far as the legacy goes I think the thing that separates Jordan from Lebron and EVERYONE else (Yes even you Kobe) is the consistency. There are plenty of individual games that players have that are every bit as good as some MJ games. Or sometimes even better. Kobe's 62 in 3 quarters. Lebron at Detroit game 5.... But Jordan never ever took a night off. His bad games were few and far between and he never gave the impression that there was anything else on his mind other than the destruction of the other team.

Last year Deron Williams had a 57 point 7 assist 6 rebound game... Every bit as good as any Jordan performace. The difference is No one was worried about him doing it again the next night. with Jordan it was a real possibility.

well said! :applause: I think Lebron has the ability to be better than Jordan in many aspects but he's had already too many ups and downs. People will always remember his finals losses and "the decision" etc. When it comes to Jordan's legacy people only seem to remember positive things!

[Bigsmoke]

he WILL NOT.

LeBron has too many :facepalm games

[guy]

There is potential/time and he certainly is on pace if he continues to do what he does.... He is 27 and has for example 3 mvps, 1 fmvp, 1 ring... Jordan by that age had only 1 mvp...

Thats a pretty stupid argument. So cause Jordan had 1 MVP at 27 and Lebron had 3 MVPs and 1 ring at 27, he's going to end up with more then 6 titles by the time he's 35? And we are also just going to ignore that Lebron has played 3 more seasons at this point then Jordan did? The pace reasoning is stupid cause another way to look at it is according to pace, since Jordan never won a title in the first 6 seasons of his career, he would've never won 1, and since Lebron has only won 1 title in 9 seasons, he would only win 1 more in the next 9 seasons.

I won't say "never" with Lebron but its highly unlikely. The way he went out in 2010 and 2011 are big stains on his legacy that never happened with Jordan, as great of a player as he is he still hasn't gotten to Jordan's prime/peak (ignoring accomplishments), and its highly doubtful his game transitions with age as well as Jordan's did because he's just not as skilled. In some of the general public's eyes he might be looked at as better i.e. people that aren't knowledge like the people that think someone like Kobe is actually close to Jordan for example, but the people that actually know more won't think that.

[chazzy]

Ability wise, I think we've seen Lebron at his best IMO.. and it wasn't as good as MJ. So he would have to surpass his accomplishments, which is highly doubtful

[Segatti]

Lol at people comparing awards :facepalm

Jordan is more dominant offensively, defensively, he is a better leader and with incomparable mental toughness. Lebron is a better passer (only by a little bit) and more versatile, but that's all. The only way Lebron passes Jordan is if he keeps playing like last year until he's 40.

[Segatti]

DEFENSIVELY There is a real debate to be had. I think Jordan was clearly the better One one one defender, but lebron can cover a wider rage of players and still hold his own so it's sort of a value judgment at that point.


Lebron defensive versatile is better, but it is overrated anyway. He can ocasionally guard bigger guys, but that's it, and Jordan could do it too (he guarded Divac in the finals).

[Nash]

He won't, but he'll have an amazing career better than the rest.

[kurple]

Leshortcut denied any chance at that the moment he made the decision, a while before he single-handedly costed his stacked team the NBA Finals so this is not even a remotely valid question. 0% chance. none. nada.
this

but i also want to say that he can easily surpass Kobe. not that it's related to the thread

[lilgodfather1]

It's certainly possible, although not likely. If he can win 3 more titles in a row then the conversation becomes legitimate.

For now it's not very close.

LeBron would have to be the all time leader in points, get into the 30k/10k/10k club, and win another 3 MVPs, and a DPOY with 4 FMVP's in order for this to get legitimate.

[Noob Saibot]

LeBron to catch Jordan is getting smaller and smaller every season. But he can still impress us by continuing to be the best player in the NBA for several years to come.

[LBJ 23]

He can't and he won't surpass Michael Jordan.

Sadly, ONE of the reasons is also completely non-basketball related(is not telling us how good of a player Lebron actually is) and this is that nowadays everything he does is blown out of proportions by the media and general fans through the internet. And before he won a ring mostly in a negative way. And unfortunately it also affects how the basketball fans and general public views Lebron as a basketball player(skillwise).

I don't think Jordan in the 90's gets criticized as much as Lebron for not shaking hands after losing in ECF. People would probably say he's just too proud and too competitive so that's something completely normal and expected from him.

I also don't think Jordan gets mocked as much as Lebron after promising(in a humorous way) to his team and its fans multiple championships by saying ''not 1....not 2.... not 3...''. If it was Jordan, people would probably say he's just very confident and gives the team and its fans hope. What's wrong with that?

Hell, you can put Kobe instead of Jordan and people would still say the same stuff. But when it comes to Lebron he's arrogant, douchebag, narcissistic(I won't say he isn't, but so are other stars which wouldn't be criticized for the same actions) ,...

The only really stupid action was when he wen't on tv to declare where he's gonna play in the future :facepalm

[ihoopallday]

When did LeBron say he'd be better than MJ :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

I also don't think Jordan gets mocked as much as Lebron after promising(in a humorous way) to his team and its fans multiple championships by saying ''not 1....not 2.... not 3...''. If it was Jordan, people would probably say he's just very confident and gives the team and its fans hope. What's wrong with that?

I think the difference is that Jordan only started saying arrogant things AFTER he accomplished those things. I don't have quotes to back me up now but it's just how I remember things. I mean even Kobe. He says a lot of arrogant shit now, but it's after he got his rings. I cant remember 1 arrogant thing he said before he won one.

lebron on the other hand..

[Sakkreth]

Very slim chance, most likely not. Very likely to end up second to MJ.

[pauk]

My two cents.

This is just my opinion so feel free to infer that I have homosexual tendencies as your rebuttal but also address some of the content of my argument.

As a player Lebron Has already demonstrated that he is not as good as Jordan was. I'm not talking about legacy or rankings or anything like that, I'm talking about pure basketball skill. OFFENSIVELY Of course Jordan is better, His mid range game was better, his footwork, his handles were better, His post up game was MUCH better, and the 3 point shooting is a wash. DEFENSIVELY There is a real debate to be had. I think Jordan was clearly the better One one one defender, but lebron can cover a wider rage of players and still hold his own so it's sort of a value judgment at that point.

The other elements of the game: Everyone says Lebron is a better rebounder but he plays a forward position and is 2 inches taller so he should be getting more rebounds. I Think as far as the skill of rebounding goes Jordan was better, he had a better nose for the ball. But I'm not married to that opinion. I could be talked out of it. Passing/court vision is where Lebron is CLEARLY superior to MJ, which is impressive because Jordan was very good in that department. Lebron however has superior passing ability even when compared with most point guards.

As far as the legacy goes I think the thing that separates Jordan from Lebron and EVERYONE else (Yes even you Kobe) is the consistency. There are plenty of individual games that players have that are every bit as good as some MJ games. Or sometimes even better. Kobe's 62 in 3 quarters. Lebron at Detroit game 5.... But Jordan never ever took a night off. His bad games were few and far between and he never gave the impression that there was anything else on his mind other than the destruction of the other team.

Last year Deron Williams had a 57 point 7 assist 6 rebound game... Every bit as good as any Jordan performace. The difference is No one was worried about him doing it again the next night. with Jordan it was a real possibility.

Lebron is a better open court player, he has also MUCH better court vision & passing skills..... Jordan is a better pure scorer, but Lebron holds his own in that department... Lebron can play almost all positions offensively aka. versatility.... Lebron from the first time he stepped on the court as an 18 year old has been a more consistant & productive 3PT shooter than Jordan was, its not really a wash, Jordan shot 15% from 3PT his first 4 years and 25% his first 9 years... Jordan was a better FT shooter tho...

Jordan was a better on the ball defender, Lebron was better at... everything else... and yes versatility, which only Jordans teammate had (Pippen) that could efficiently guard up to all positions...

Lebron is a better rebounder because he gets more rebounds.... simple as that... trying to downplay his rebounding because of his size to try and make Jordan look like equal or better rebounder "pound for pound" is absolutely stupid... "The bird can fly because it got wings, if i had wings i could fly to... so Me > Bird in flying"

Last but not least, Lebron & Jordan are two different players, i hate seeing people compare those two... he is more closer to triple double type teamplaying guys like Oscar/Magic/Bird rather than more scoring/chucking (no pun intended, not towards Jordan at least because he was very efficient) minded guys like Jordan/Kobe/Carmelo.....

[snipes12]

He need to surpass larry bird first
jordan
kareem
wilt/rusell
magic
bird
Shaq
kobe
duncan

3 more rings with 3 fmvp and 3 mvp could do it

[pauk]

Thats a pretty stupid argument. So cause Jordan had 1 MVP at 27 and Lebron had 3 MVPs and 1 ring at 27, he's going to end up with more then 6 titles by the time he's 35? And we are also just going to ignore that Lebron has played 3 more seasons at this point then Jordan did? The pace reasoning is stupid cause another way to look at it is according to pace, since Jordan never won a title in the first 6 seasons of his career, he would've never won 1, and since Lebron has only won 1 title in 9 seasons, he would only win 1 more in the next 9 seasons.

I won't say "never" with Lebron but its highly unlikely. The way he went out in 2010 and 2011 are big stains on his legacy that never happened with Jordan, as great of a player as he is he still hasn't gotten to Jordan's prime/peak (ignoring accomplishments), and its highly doubtful his game transitions with age as well as Jordan's did because he's just not as skilled. In some of the general public's eyes he might be looked at as better i.e. people that aren't knowledge like the people that think someone like Kobe is actually close to Jordan for example, but the people that actually know more won't think that.

I said: "POTENTIAL".... because of what Lebron is doing talent/stats wise and what he has accomplished also accolades wise at that age in contrast to what Jordan had at that age i can see the pace if he continues to do anything close to what he did last year and so i can see the POTENTIAL..... its right out there infront of your face..... there is a huge difference between seeing the potential/possibility (as in something not being impossible) and saying "He is going to end up or not end up better" (which is more of a conclusion me/you/we/somebody can make ONLY if we were in the movie "Back to the Future")

[Fudge]

Possible, but unlikely that he will. I do think he can enter the Top 3 right behind MJ and KAJ though.

[guy]

Lebron is a better open court player, he has also MUCH better court vision & passing skills..... Jordan is a better pure scorer, but Lebron holds his own in that department... Lebron can play almost all positions offensively aka. versatility.... Lebron from the first time he stepped on the court as an 18 year old has been a more consistant & productive 3PT shooter than Jordan was, its not really a wash, Jordan shot 15% from 3PT his first 4 years and 25% his first 9 years... Jordan was a better FT shooter tho...

Jordan was a better on the ball defender, Lebron was better at... everything else... and yes versatility, which only Jordans teammate had (Pippen) that could efficiently guard up to all positions...

Lebron is a better rebounder because he gets more rebounds.... simple as that... trying to downplay his rebounding because of his size to try and make Jordan look like equal or better rebounder "pound for pound" is absolutely stupid... "The bird can fly because it got wings, if i had wings i could fly to... so Me > Bird in flying"

Last but not least, Lebron & Jordan are two different players, i hate seeing people compare those two... he is more closer to triple double type teamplaying guys like Oscar/Magic/Bird rather than more scoring/chucking (no pun intended, not towards Jordan at least because he was very efficient) minded guys like Jordan/Kobe/Carmelo.....

:oldlol: Did you even watch Jordan play?

In the open court, its debateable, and more importantly its not really that relevant because both are pretty much unstoppable in the open court that it doesn't really matter.

Lebron is not MUCH better then Jordan at passing. I'd say he's better, but you're making it seem like he was Magic or Nash. He wasn't, and he was much closer to Jordan's level at that then those guys.

Jordan's career 3P% is almost the same as Lebron's, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Either way, their mid range game is alot more important since they shouldn't take that many 3s anyway, and Jordan is clearly much better at that.

As far as defense goes, Jordan is a better help defender too and arguably the greatest perimeter help defender ever. Lebron is seriously getting overrated as a defender if you think Lebron is better at everything other then one on one defense. Its true that he can guard more positions, but even that is completely overstated cause he rarely ever guards centers like people claim he does, and when he does its more like centers that are more like PFs (:oldlol: @ him guarding Howard or Bynum), and he's also not that effective guarding PFs or centers.

Lebron's style of play is alot closer to Jordan's then it is to Magic, and Jordan himself is one of the greatest all around players ever. He's hardly just this pure scorer like you make him out to be. Both are two huge myths around here.

[Segatti]

Lebron is a better open court player, he has also MUCH better court vision & passing skills.....

No ****in' way. Slightly better passer. Well, if Lebron is a MUCH better passer than Jordan then Jordan is a MUCH better scorer than James.

[guy]

I said: "POTENTIAL".... because of what Lebron is doing talent/stats wise and what he has accomplished also accolades wise at that age in contrast to what Jordan had at that age i can see the pace if he continues to do anything close to what he did last year and so i can see the POTENTIAL..... its right out there infront of your face..... there is a huge difference between seeing the potential/possibility (as in something not being impossible) and saying "He is going to end up or not end up better" (which is more of a conclusion me/you/we/somebody can make ONLY if we were in the movie "Back to the Future")

I know what you're saying. Either way, to say he's on pace cause he's accomplished more at 27 then Jordan did, is stupid cause its completely misleading. You're completely ignoring that Lebron had 9 seasons thru age 27 while Jordan only had 6.

[Mr. Jabbar]

:oldlol: Did you even watch Jordan play?

:oldlol:

I'll save you some time here; he didn't.

[chazzy]

Lebron is a better open court player, he has also MUCH better court vision & passing skills..... Jordan is a better pure scorer, but Lebron holds his own in that department... Lebron can play almost all positions offensively aka. versatility.... Lebron from the first time he stepped on the court as an 18 year old has been a more consistant & productive 3PT shooter than Jordan was, its not really a wash, Jordan shot 15% from 3PT his first 4 years and 25% his first 9 years... Jordan was a better FT shooter tho...

Jordan was a better on the ball defender, Lebron was better at... everything else... and yes versatility, which only Jordans teammate had (Pippen) that could efficiently guard up to all positions...

Lebron is a better rebounder because he gets more rebounds.... simple as that... trying to downplay his rebounding because of his size to try and make Jordan look like equal or better rebounder "pound for pound" is absolutely stupid... "The bird can fly because it got wings, if i had wings i could fly to... so Me > Bird in flying"

Last but not least, Lebron & Jordan are two different players, i hate seeing people compare those two... he is more closer to triple double type teamplaying guys like Oscar/Magic/Bird rather than more scoring/chucking (no pun intended, not towards Jordan at least because he was very efficient) minded guys like Jordan/Kobe/Carmelo.....
Never go full pauk. Scoring/chucking minded? Just merely a better pure scorer and on ball defender huh? Jordan was better in all aspects of defense save possibly transition, especially off ball denial and anticipation. He was better at timing his doubles and recovering to his man. You really need to watch more full MJ games. Also, I'd love to see Lebron play center and see how his team's defense fares.

[Pushxx]

Until people forget that he gave up on his team in 2010 and choked massively in the 2007 and 2011 NBA Finals, it's near impossible.

[pauk]

As far as 2011 Finals leaving a "big stain" on Lebrons legacy.... i dont think you are being fair here... Jordan was NEVER in a situation like that where he had to immediately go to a new town/team and join 2 superstars that would bottleneck him (and eachother) chemistry wise, a new system that would bottleneck him and a completely new role that would bottleneck him....... so how do you know if that would never happened to Jordan? He never was in such a situation.... Jordan got everything handed to him on a silverplate eventually in Chicago (teammates/coach), he didnt have to move or change anything...

But Jordan did play bad alot of times in a series.... shooting very bad and so on... "choking".... very very many such games.... he managed to cloak those performances statistically by keep chucking the ball no matter what (an ability Kobe Bryant picked up)....

All those 10 players you have in your Top 10 have "choked" one way or the other in the playoffs anyways.... Larry Bird (1981 Finals for example), Magic (Tragic Johnson) and so on....... it happens.....

Trying to diminish a players career or say a player left a "big stain" because of 4-5 bad games is just ignorant... ignorant....

[pauk]

Never go full pauk. Scoring/chucking minded? Just merely a better pure scorer and on ball defender huh? Jordan was better in all aspects of defense save possibly transition, especially off ball denial and anticipation. He was better at timing his doubles and recovering to his man. You really need to watch more full MJ games. Also, I'd love to see Lebron play center and see how his team's defense fares.

Never go full Chazzy. I didnt compare their complete offensive / defensive differences, it was more of an addition in context to the guy i quoted....

...and no, Jordan was not better in "all aspects of defense"....

No, YOU need to watch more full Lebron games...


PS: ...and yes Jordan sure was more "scoring minded" than Lebron... much, much, much more...

[ripthekik]

As far as 2011 Finals leaving a "big stain" on Lebrons legacy.... i dont think you are being fair here... Jordan was NEVER in a situation like that where he had to immediately go to a new town/team and join 2 superstars that would bottleneck him (and eachother) chemistry wise, a new system that would bottleneck him and a completely new role that would bottleneck him....... so how do you know if that would never happened to Jordan? He never was in such a situation.... Jordan got everything handed to him on a silverplate eventually in Chicago (teammates/coach), he didnt have to move or change anything...

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
pauk going full retard all over the place here..
so now it's MJ's fault that he never had to quit on his own team and form a super team? :roll: :roll: :roll: omfg
Jordan never had to, how about you question why lebron did so :roll:

[Mr Exlax]

If we're talking about legacy, I don't think he can. I do think he will end up being a better player than MJ. Not more skilled, just a better player.

[Mr. Jabbar]

If we're talking about legacy, I don't think he can. I do think he will end up being a better player than MJ. Not more skilled, just a better player.


good post (jk)

[Mr Exlax]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
pauk going full retard all over the place here..
so now it's MJ's fault that he never had to quit on his own team and form a super team? :roll: :roll: :roll: omfg
Jordan never had to, how about you question why lebron did so :roll:

Jordan got some good talent around him though. See Pippen and Grant. That was 2 of the top 10 picks in the same draft. Lebron didn't get that in Cleveland nor did he ever get the chance because they were winning so many games. Can anybody explain to me again how Chicago managed to pull that off? Jordan was still great before they got there right? Were they contenders before the year those 2 guys were drafted?

[RRR3]

Until people forget that he gave up on his team in 2010 and choked massively in the 2007 and 2011 NBA Finals, it's near impossible.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E4494GV3L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[Mr. Jabbar]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E4494GV3L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Where have you been the past days RRR3???, I feared the worst, phewww....

[RRR3]

Where have you been the past days RRR3???, I feared the worst, phewww....
Very behind in my math HW which I should be doing right now btw :lol

[pauk]

This is just getting ridicilous...

All i am saying is that Lebron has clearly lined up his accolades in a number and pace and direction which should create the possiblity to say he HAS the potential (not will surpass, but has potential, please dont get confused) to match or even surpass Jordan....

To say that Lebron WILL or WILL NOT surpass Jordan is just completely ignorant... how the hell do you know? All you know is what Lebron already has in contrast to what Jordan had at that age.... compare that and you will quickly find out its not impossible....

As far as talent/skill goes, Jordan & Lebron are to me completely different players... the only thing those two have somewhat incommon gamestyle wise is the athleticism & scoring.... Lebron is more closer to something like Oscar/Magic/Pippen and prime Hill/Penny...

[guy]

As far as 2011 Finals leaving a "big stain" on Lebrons legacy.... i dont think you are being fair here... Jordan was NEVER in a situation like that where he had to immediately go to a new town/team and join 2 superstars that would bottleneck him (and eachother) chemistry wise, a new system that would bottleneck him and a completely new role that would bottleneck him....... so how do you know if that would never happened to Jordan? He never was in such a situation.... Jordan got everything handed to him on a silverplate eventually in Chicago (teammates/coach), he didnt have to move or change anything...

But Jordan did play bad alot of times in a series.... shooting very bad and so on... "choking".... very very many such games.... he managed to cloak those performances statistically by keep chucking the ball no matter what (an ability Kobe Bryant picked up)....

All those 10 players you have in your Top 10 have "choked" one way or the other in the playoffs anyways.... Larry Bird (1981 Finals for example), Magic (Tragic Johnson) and so on....... it happens.....

Trying to diminish a players career or say a player left a "big stain" because of 4-5 bad games is just ignorant... ignorant....

Oh my god. This has to be one of the most denial-filled posts I've ever read. You're making it seem that team got together, didn't play any regular season games or 3 rounds of playoffs, and just got thrown into the Finals together at random without ever having to play together before to get there. They won 58 games together in the RS and then completely dominated their opponents in the EC with no series going over 5 games. What the hell are you talking about? Let me guess, you are going to say the fact that he was "bottlenecked" and still got that far makes it that much more impressive and that you're surprised they even got out the first round? Stop trying to make excuses for the dude. He didn't even play that bad or passive in the first few games of that regular season when they got together, so what you're saying makes very little sense.

And you know why that wouldn't happen to Jordan? Cause he never showed that he was scared like that and always played aggressive especially when he needed to. For that to be even a question, I need to ask again - Did you even watch Jordan play???

I never said Jordan never had a bad game, but he never completely f*cked his team's chemistry and ever gave them a reason to question his leadership cause he played like a scared little b*tch. Doing that is significantly worse then any bad game of Jordan's.

I never said Lebron couldn't surpass Magic or Bird, in fact I think thats very possible. So no reason to even bring them up. In fact, I didn't even say he couldn't surpass Jordan, just that its unlikely.

[DJ Leon Smith]

As far as 2011 Finals leaving a "big stain" on Lebrons legacy.... i dont think you are being fair here... Jordan was NEVER in a situation like that where he had to immediately go to a new town/team and join 2 superstars that would bottleneck him

That was LeBron's decision.

To be declared the GOAT a lot of it has to do with your story. It's why Wilt doesn't have a lot of support - he doesn't have a strong made-for-TV legacy. Jordan does. He stayed with his team and his "weak" supporting cast, they defeated the bullies (Detroit) then went on to own the league.

If Jordan decided to leave the Bulls and team up with Larry Bird and the Celtics before he beat the Pistons, then was outscored by Danny Ainge in his second NBA Finals, would he be considered the GOAT? Maybe, but probably not. And that's LeBron's problem. He got his ring, but it has no story behind it. No one cares. He has no chance of becoming the GOAT.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Very behind in my math HW which I should be doing right now btw :lol

:oldlol:

[TheMan]

There is potential/time and he certainly is on pace if he continues to do what he does.... He is 27 and has for example 3 mvps, 1 fmvp, 1 ring... Jordan by that age had only 1 mvp...
Keep in mind that Jordan could've had more MVPs were it not for Bird and Magic in the late 80s and then MJ stepping away from the game for two seasons in his prime...MJ's 5 MVPs could easily have been 8.

LBJ will probably end up with more MVPs

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

As far as 2011 Finals leaving a "big stain" on Lebrons legacy.... i dont think you are being fair here... Jordan was NEVER in a situation like that where he had to immediately go to a new town/team and join 2 superstars that would bottleneck him (and eachother) chemistry wise, a new system that would bottleneck him and a completely new role that would bottleneck him....... so how do you know if that would never happened to Jordan? He never was in such a situation.... Jordan got everything handed to him on a silverplate eventually in Chicago (teammates/coach), he didnt have to move or change anything...

But Jordan did play bad alot of times in a series.... shooting very bad and so on... "choking".... very very many such games.... he managed to cloak those performances statistically by keep chucking the ball no matter what (an ability Kobe Bryant picked up)....

All those 10 players you have in your Top 10 have "choked" one way or the other in the playoffs anyways.... Larry Bird (1981 Finals for example), Magic (Tragic Johnson) and so on....... it happens.....

Trying to diminish a players career or say a player left a "big stain" because of 4-5 bad games is just ignorant... ignorant....

http://i.imgur.com/JDDJ2.gif

[DJ Leon Smith]

Jeff are you ever going to ban these retards from your forum or do you enjoy making this much money and never any more.

[Rysio]

only 3 more mvps, 6 more fmvps and 10 more scoring tiles and he's right there. legoat. :rolleyes:

[Simple Jack]

Oh my god. This has to be one of the most denial-filled posts I've ever read. You're making it seem that team got together, didn't play any regular season games or 3 rounds of playoffs, and just got thrown into the Finals together at random without ever having to play together before to get there. They won 58 games together in the RS and then completely dominated their opponents in the EC with no series going over 5 games. What the hell are you talking about? Let me guess, you are going to say the fact that he was "bottlenecked" and still got that far makes it that much more impressive and that you're surprised they even got out the first round? Stop trying to make excuses for the dude. He didn't even play that bad or passive in the first few games of that regular season when they got together, so what you're saying makes very little sense.

And you know why that wouldn't happen to Jordan? Cause he never showed that he was scared like that and always played aggressive especially when he needed to. For that to be even a question, I need to ask again - Did you even watch Jordan play???

I never said Jordan never had a bad game, but he never completely f*cked his team's chemistry and ever gave them a reason to question his leadership cause he played like a scared little b*tch. Doing that is significantly worse then any bad game of Jordan's.

I never said Lebron couldn't surpass Magic or Bird, in fact I think thats very possible. So no reason to even bring them up. In fact, I didn't even say he couldn't surpass Jordan, just that its unlikely.

Why do people act like 89 against the Pistons never happened? MJ pulled a Houdini himself in game 5 IIRC. Dude had like 8 points and took 1 shot in the 4th quarter which he airballed. The announcers were saying the same things about MJ that game that we all said about LeBron.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why do people act like 89 against the Pistons never happened? MJ pulled a Houdini himself in game 5 IIRC. Dude had like 8 points and took 1 shot in the 4th quarter which he airballed. The announcers were saying the same things about MJ that game that we all said about LeBron.

1 game =/= an entire series...in the Finals?

[DatAsh]

As far as 2011 Finals leaving a "big stain" on Lebrons legacy.... i dont think you are being fair here... Jordan was NEVER in a situation like that where he had to immediately go to a new town/team and join 2 superstars that would bottleneck him (and eachother) chemistry wise, a new system that would bottleneck him and a completely new role that would bottleneck him....... so how do you know if that would never happened to Jordan? He never was in such a situation.... Jordan got everything handed to him on a silverplate eventually in Chicago (teammates/coach), he didnt have to move or change anything...

But Jordan did play bad alot of times in a series.... shooting very bad and so on... "choking".... very very many such games.... he managed to cloak those performances statistically by keep chucking the ball no matter what (an ability Kobe Bryant picked up)....

All those 10 players you have in your Top 10 have "choked" one way or the other in the playoffs anyways.... Larry Bird (1981 Finals for example), Magic (Tragic Johnson) and so on....... it happens.....

Trying to diminish a players career or say a player left a "big stain" because of 4-5 bad games is just ignorant... ignorant....


You seem to want to downplay the difference in scoring, while at the same time overstating the difference in passing and rebounding between the two players.

Your assessment of their defensive abilities is also off.

Jordan is the better scorer, off ball player, on/off ball defender, and help defender.

Lebron is the better rebounder, passer, and the more versatile defender.

[TheMan]

If we're talking about legacy, I don't think he can. I do think he will end up being a better player than MJ. Not more skilled, just a better player.
This makes no sense.

Can we stop it with the LeBron is a much better passer than MJ myth? He's a much more willing passer, big difference...


Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes.

Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn’t record a TD, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds.

In this game, he has 16 assists against the Lakers and ties his career-high which was set in his rookie year. (Three days later, on March 24, he had 17 assists at Portland which remained as his highest.)

In the first 3 quarters of this game he rarely shoots the ball and feeds his teammates. In the 4th, he scores 12 points and leads the Bulls to the victory.

I’ve included a good article about his PG days after the game notes.


http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

Pauk, give me a 24 game stretch of LBJ games where he posts anything close to those games MJ played as the main ball distributor, which is what LBJ has mostly been in his whole career.

[LongLiveTheKing]

He's not going to pass MJ but he might finish behind or Top 5.

[RRR3]

What's it matter if LBJ isn't as good as MJ anyways? He can still finish top 5 or higher! :rockon: :cheers:

[TheMan]

repost so that the LBJ is a better passer myth can stop..look at MJ's stats when he was put at PG in 89, those are GOAT PG stats:bowdown:


This makes no sense.

Can we stop it with the LeBron is a much better passer than MJ myth? He's a much more willing passer, big difference...

Doug Collins decided to move Jordan to the point guard spot against Seattle on March 11, 1989. He finished that game with 15 assists. Two days later, he had a game of 21/14/14 against the Pacers in just 30 minutes of playing time in a 32-point blowout win. He reached the triple double mark in just 21 minutes.

Jordan continued to play at the PG spot until the end of the season. In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn’t record a TD, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds.

In this game, he has 16 assists against the Lakers and ties his career-high which was set in his rookie year. (Three days later, on March 24, he had 17 assists at Portland which remained as his highest.)

In the first 3 quarters of this game he rarely shoots the ball and feeds his teammates. In the 4th, he scores 12 points and leads the Bulls to the victory.





http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

Pauk, give me a 24 game stretch of LBJ games where he posts anything close to those games MJ played as the main ball distributor, which is what LBJ has mostly been in his whole career.

[ihoopallday]

What's it matter if LBJ isn't as good as MJ anyways? He can still finish top 5 or higher! :rockon: :cheers:

This. It's just people trying to stir things up.

MJ
......

Today's NBA players

[guy]

Why do people act like 89 against the Pistons never happened? MJ pulled a Houdini himself in game 5 IIRC. Dude had like 8 points and took 1 shot in the 4th quarter which he airballed. The announcers were saying the same things about MJ that game that we all said about LeBron.

Okay. Should've said "almost always played aggressive" as in 1 game out of his whole career where he was told by his coach to pass more and was still more aggressive then Lebron ever was in the Finals, not camping out at the 3 point line and still getting to the line 11 times. Still no excuses for that cause he took it overboard. However, its one time as opposed to significantly more times for Lebron.

[red1]

as far as peak play he is already top 5, career wise he has a great shot at 2nd behind mj

[LBJ 23]

1 game =/= an entire series...in the Finals?


Before 11 Finals there was a game 5 for Lebron against Boston and people were still saying the same stuff. 1 game = 1 game

Actually if I remember correctly Lebron's nickname ''quitter'' was invented right after that game. So you see the standards Lebron was held to. 1 really bad game and it was over for him.

All that being said Lebron won't surpass Jordan

[Mr Exlax]

This makes no sense.

I'll try to explain.

Kobe is more skilled than Lebron, yet Lebron is a better basketball player right now right? The physical attributes are they only reason why he is. He's bigger faster and stronger than Kobe. That's how I look at Lebron being a better basketball player than MJ, yet MJ being more skilled.

[RRR3]

Okay. Should've said "almost always played aggressive" as in 1 game out of his whole career where he was told by his coach to pass more and was still more aggressive then Lebron ever was in the Finals, not camping out at the 3 point line and still getting to the line 11 times. Still no excuses for that cause he took it overboard. However, its one time as opposed to significantly more times for Lebron.
LeBron isn't MJ, though, regardless of what Pauk says. We should all let LBJ be himself IMO.

[BuffaloBill]

He has a long way to go.

[Wally450]

If some people are saying Kobe with 5 rings isn't close to MJ, how is LeBron with 1 ring anywhere close?

[Breezy]

Lebron is a better open court player, he has also MUCH better court vision & passing skills..... Jordan is a better pure scorer, but Lebron holds his own in that department... Lebron can play almost all positions offensively aka. versatility.... Lebron from the first time he stepped on the court as an 18 year old has been a more consistant & productive 3PT shooter than Jordan was, its not really a wash, Jordan shot 15% from 3PT his first 4 years and 25% his first 9 years... Jordan was a better FT shooter tho...

Jordan was a better on the ball defender, Lebron was better at... everything else... and yes versatility, which only Jordans teammate had (Pippen) that could efficiently guard up to all positions...

Lebron is a better rebounder because he gets more rebounds.... simple as that... trying to downplay his rebounding because of his size to try and make Jordan look like equal or better rebounder "pound for pound" is absolutely stupid... "The bird can fly because it got wings, if i had wings i could fly to... so Me > Bird in flying"

Last but not least, Lebron & Jordan are two different players, i hate seeing people compare those two... he is more closer to triple double type teamplaying guys like Oscar/Magic/Bird rather than more scoring/chucking (no pun intended, not towards Jordan at least because he was very efficient) minded guys like Jordan/Kobe/Carmelo.....


I'm with you in the passing/court vision.
The only other players to really compare lebron to in that regard are Magic/bird.

As far as the defense goes I said it's a debate and one which I don't hold strong convictions. I don't agree that Lebron is better at everything else defensively. Clearly playing the passing lanes and getting steals favors Jordan but also Shot blocking. They're both valuable to the team. :confusedshrug:

The rebounding is not just as simple as the number of rebounds you get. And the bird analogy falls apart because people can't fly and birds can. All players rebound. There are rebounds you get because you can tell where the ball is going to go and you instinctively go after it and there are rebounds you get because you're in the right place and taller than everyone else. (Charles Barkley anyone?) I think it's reasonable to say Jason kidd is a better rebounder than Brook lopez even though for his career Lopez averages more rebounds. If Jordan was playing a foward position he clearly would be averaging more rebounds..... Lebron is playing more of the 4 this year and his rebounding is through the roof.

Lastly I've been Lurking on this forum for a long time now and I kind of know everyone's reputation so go easy on me. I'm firmly in the "Lebron is better than kobe ever was" camp so one of these days I might be backing you up in a debate.

[DMV2]

If some people are saying Kobe with 5 rings isn't close to MJ, how is LeBron with 1 ring anywhere close?
More than just rings, it's about the content that comes with those rings.

Outside of rings, LeBron has a good case to be closer to Jordan than Kobe ever was.

[tmacattack33]

I'm with you in the passing/court vision.
The only other players to really compare lebron to in that regard are Magic/bird.

As far as the defense goes I said it's a debate and one which I don't hold strong convictions. I don't agree that Lebron is better at everything else defensively. Clearly playing the passing lanes and getting steals favors Jordan but also Shot blocking. They're both valuable to the team. :confusedshrug:

The rebounding is not just as simple as the number of rebounds you get. And the bird analogy falls apart because people can't fly and birds can. All players rebound. There are rebounds you get because you can tell where the ball is going to go and you instinctively go after it and there are rebounds you get because you're in the right place and taller than everyone else. (Charles Barkley anyone?) I think it's reasonable to say Jason kidd is a better rebounder than Brook lopez even though for his career Lopez averages more rebounds. If Jordan was playing a foward position he clearly would be averaging more rebounds..... Lebron is playing more of the 4 this year and his rebounding is through the roof.

Lastly I've been Lurking on this forum for a long time now and I kind of know everyone's reputation so go easy on me. I'm firmly in the "Lebron is better than kobe ever was" camp so one of these days I might be backing you up in a debate.

There is no way MJ would be able to rebound with the bigs like Lebron does. Barkley was short, but he was also large. And he was a once in a generation thing. A 6'5 to 6'6, 200 lb guy playing C and rebounding well is not very likely.

[TinselTime12]

If some people are saying Kobe with 5 rings isn't close to MJ, how is LeBron with 1 ring anywhere close?
Robert Horry - 7 rings, obviously he is closer than both.

[tmacattack33]

repost so that the LBJ is a better passer myth can stop..look at MJ's stats when he was put at PG in 89, those are GOAT PG stats:bowdown:


Since when did amount of assists equal who was a better passer? The term you are looking for would be play-maker.

[Bandito]

He better pass up Kobe, magic, Kareem, Bird and West among others in the rankings before he dethrone the GOAT...

[Remix]

Lebron's skillset isn't even close to Jordan's.

[bizil]

I think Lebron's resume could indeed pass MJ by possibly. In terms of stats, awards, longevity being great, etc. And Lebron at 6'8 and 260 can do things MJ couldn't do. MJ could basically do everything a 6'6 perimeter player could do. He could play and defend PG, SG, and SF all great. He was a great scorer, passer, rebounder (given his size and position), and defender all in one. He was at the pinnacle of the freak athlete food chain. He has arguably the best midrange game of all time. And his total scoring skillset for a perimeter player is arguably the best of all time. U had the perfect blend of freak athletic ability, size for a perimeter player, and technical skills in MJ.

But Lebron is more versatile than MJ. He's just as athletic and stronger. Bron is a better passer than MJ. Even though Bron doesn't have MJ's scoring skillset or killer instinct (even though Bron I feel is a killer scoring on a lower level), he still averages 27-30 points every year.

So Bron has CLEAR strengths on MJ, something that Kobe as great as he was never had. Kobe was too similar to MJ in size, athletic ability, and skillset. U have to take traits of MJ and TOTALLY redefine the game. MJ took traits of Dr. J, Thompson, and West and combined it into one. MJ and the Iceman if u look closely had similar scoring skillsets as well. I think MJ took all of those traits and combined it into one. Magic took things the Big O did and took it to another level in a 6'9 body. Bird took things that Barry did and put it in a 6'9 body. Bron has the skill, size, and accomplishments to possibly pass MJ. He has as good of shot that ANYBODY has ever had. Including Kobe, Shaq, Duncan and all the other greats who dominated the L post MJ

[bizil]

Lebron never had the imagination of the world like MJ does. Guys like Ruth, Ali, and MJ stay on top because of the way they own pop culturally. If the battle is close, it will always go their way. Bron is a pop culture icon as well, the biggest since Shaq and AI a few years ago NBA wise. So even though his resume might top MJ's, other factors may stop Bron from passing MJ. But Bron has a change to put up INSANE NUMBERS! Like possibly damn near 40,000 points and 10,000 assists. Something NOBODY had come close to. If Bron does that, gets a minimum of 4-6 rings, and a couple more MVP's, u gotta seriously consider Bron a threat to pass MJ.

[bizil]

Since when did amount of assists equal who was a better passer? The term you are looking for would be play-maker.

I agree. Even though their numbers are similar, the tiebreaker for me is Bron's natural pass first instinct and court vision. MJ, while arguably the best passing SG ever, is a scorer first. Bron's court vision is more on par with Magic, Nash, Stockton, Paul, Zeke Big O, etc. Im not saying he's as good as those guys, but at best he's not far behind. Guys like MJ, Kobe, Wade, etc. are great passers capable of playing PG better than most, but not on the level passing of Magic, Bron, Stock, etc.

[Micku]

There is no way MJ would be able to rebound with the bigs like Lebron does. Barkley was short, but he was also large. And he was a once in a generation thing. A 6'5 to 6'6, 200 lb guy playing C and rebounding well is not very likely.

MJ did play small forward while he was in Washington. He was old then, but still about average 6 rpg. If MJ were to play it in his prime, he might've average a bit more. Nothing like Barkley of course, but I can see him averaging 7. He basically did at times in his career playing SG. But that is not MJ's game and that's more what ifs.

And I agree with ppl who are saying that LeBron could surpass MJ in individual accomplishments and he could get a bunch of championships like MJ. I don't know how long LeBron could keep this level of play and whatever or not he would have the longevity as MJ in terms of age, but we'll see eventually.

But in terms of legacy, I still feel that his 2011 really hit him. Not only did he join up with Wade, he also pulled a stinker in the finals. Even though he played great in 2012 playoffs, he didn't give it his all or was bothered/scared in 2011. Magic and Bird who were younger did better than him in comparison.

[oolalaa]

Not a ****ing chance. The 2011 Finals forever removed him from the conversation. 2nd greatest of all time? Sure....he has a great chance. Best case senario would be:

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Lebron
4. Magic
5. Kareem

[colts19]

My two cents.

This is just my opinion so feel free to infer that I have homosexual tendencies as your rebuttal but also address some of the content of my argument.

As a player Lebron Has already demonstrated that he is not as good as Jordan was. I'm not talking about legacy or rankings or anything like that, I'm talking about pure basketball skill. OFFENSIVELY Of course Jordan is better, His mid range game was better, his footwork, his handles were better, His post up game was MUCH better, and the 3 point shooting is a wash. DEFENSIVELY There is a real debate to be had. I think Jordan was clearly the better One one one defender, but lebron can cover a wider rage of players and still hold his own so it's sort of a value judgment at that point.

: Everyone says Lebron is a better rebounder but he plays a forward position and is 2 inches taller so he should be getting more rebounds. I Think as far as the skill of rebounding goes Jordan was better, he had a better nose for the ball. But I'm not married to that opinion. I could be talked out of it. Passing/court vision is where Lebron is CLEARLY superior to MJ, which is impressive because Jordan was very good in that department. Lebron however has superior passing ability even when compared with most point guards.

As far as the legacy goes I think the thing that separates Jordan from Lebron and EVERYONE else (Yes even you Kobe) is the consistency. There are plenty of individual games that players have that are every bit as good as some MJ games. Or sometimes even better. Kobe's 62 in 3 quarters. Lebron at Detroit game 5.... But Jordan never ever took a night off. His bad games were few and far between and he never gave the impression that there was anything else on his mind other than the destruction of the other team.

Last year Deron Williams had a 57 point 7 assist 6 rebound game... Every bit as good as any Jordan performace. The difference is No one was worried about him doing it again the next night. with Jordan it was a real possibility.
Thanks for the great post. I think people need to look at a players actual skills first. I tend to think at the end of the day Lebron's legacy could be in top 5 ever. However if you just look at his skills, there were several players with better skills. Mj, Bird, Kobe, Big O, and Magic come to mind. However if Lebron keeps improving and working on his post up and mid range game, that could change.

[NumberSix]

top 3

MJ
Shaq
King

[hawke812]

Lebron James>MJ X1000.

MJ's competition in the 90's was college level at best.

MJ would get slaughtered in today's NBA.