Dennis Rodman on the 2nd three-peat Bulls was so overrated

[Derivative]

Dennis Rodman was so overrated to have been called one of the "Big 3" of the 2nd three-peat bulls, this is what Rodman averaged in 1996, 1997, and 1998 playoffs:

1996:
7.5ppg, 13.7rpg, 2.1apg, 48.5%FG

1997:
4.2ppg, 8.4rpg, 1.4apg, 37.0%FG

1998:
4.9ppg, 11.8rpg, 2.0apg, 37.1%FG


And here is what Pau Gasol averaged in the 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoffs:

2008:
16.9ppg, 9.3rpg, 4apg, 53%FG

2009:
18.3rpg, 10.8rpg, 2.5apg, 58%FG

2010:
19.6ppg, 11.1rpg, 3.5apg, 53.9%FG


The second three-peat Bulls has the WEAKEST frontcourt in the history of NBA out of all championship teams, and it's amazing how they could of threepeated against opponents such as Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning

[Levity]

why are you comparing a 2nd option to a non option/rebound specialist?

[fpliii]

Dennis Rodman was so overrated to have been called one of the "Big 3" of the 2nd three-peat bulls, this is what Rodman averaged in 1996, 1997, and 1998 playoffs:

1996:
7.5ppg, 13.7rpg, 2.1apg, 48.5%FG

1997:
4.2ppg, 8.4rpg, 1.4apg, 37.0%FG

1998:
4.9ppg, 11.8rpg, 2.0apg, 37.1%FG


And here is what Pau Gasol averaged in the 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoffs:

2008:
16.9ppg, 9.3rpg, 4apg, 53%FG

2009:
18.3rpg, 10.8rpg, 2.5apg, 58%FG

2010:
19.6ppg, 11.1rpg, 3.5apg, 53.9%FG

what do those numbers look like in the Finals for each season, and who did each guy guard primarily (and what were each matchup's numbers)?

[AngelEyes]

He was still a fantastic player, he just wasn't quite the same defensive player he once was.

[peejay89]

stats aren't everything, you obviously weren't old enough to watch the bulls, coz rodman bought a lot more than stats to the team.

[Derivative]

why are you comparing a 2nd option to a non option/rebound specialist?

because kobe fans would say dennis rodman is better than Pau Gasol

[G-train]

because kobe fans would say dennis rodman is better than Pau Gasol

Within each of the Rodman titles he played with different impacts.
Having watched many Bulls games in that period I can tell you the stats dont tell the story.
He was very different to Pau, hard to compare.

[Micku]

Dennis Rodman was so overrated to have been called one of the "Big 3" of the 2nd three-peat bulls, this is what Rodman averaged in 1996, 1997, and 1998 playoffs:

1996:
7.5ppg, 13.7rpg, 2.1apg, 48.5%FG

1997:
4.2ppg, 8.4rpg, 1.4apg, 37.0%FG

1998:
4.9ppg, 11.8rpg, 2.0apg, 37.1%FG


And here is what Pau Gasol averaged in the 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoffs:

2008:
16.9ppg, 9.3rpg, 4apg, 53%FG

2009:
18.3rpg, 10.8rpg, 2.5apg, 58%FG

2010:
19.6ppg, 11.1rpg, 3.5apg, 53.9%FG


The second three-peat Bulls has the WEAKEST frontcourt in the history of NBA out of all championship teams, and it's amazing how they could of threepeated against opponents such as Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone

Rodman played some good D against Shaq.

But yeah, it's pretty shocking how teams that were more talented than the Bulls with a better frontline lose to them. Look at the whole 1996 playoffs. They had to go through Mourning, Ewing, and Shaq.

When people asked Magic and Bird about the Bulls that year, they said that their frontline is their weakness, but the Bulls went through dealt with the top centers and good frontlines every single round. It was amazing.

Even more amazing is that I don't know where they get their offense because they offense get really ugly at times since they couldn't make anything. They definitely took the principle of defense wins games. But they are very lucky to have Rodman. Rodman with the hustle plays and rebounds really helped them win games.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The difference of course was that Rodman put up those rebounding numbers in 32 minutes a game to Gasol's 40 and was the anchor to the Bulls #1, #3 and #4 ranked defense. :facepalm

[Derivative]

The difference of course was that Rodman put up those rebounding numbers in 32 minutes a game to Gasol's 40 and was the anchor to the Bulls #1, #3 and #4 ranked defense. :facepalm

the anchor of bull's defense was Jordan+Pippen :facepalm :facepalm

[AngelEyes]

the anchor of bull's defense was Jordan+Pippen :facepalm :facepalm

This.

[G-train]

the anchor of bull's defense was Jordan+Pippen :facepalm :facepalm

and Rodman.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

the anchor of bull's defense was Jordan+Pippen :facepalm :facepalm

Which is why their D was only 7th, 4th and 7th during the first 3 peat and second when Jordan missed most of the season...:oldlol:

Jordan mythologists :facepalm

[stephanieg]

Dennis Rodman is one of the best bball players ever and that was before even going to the Bulls. Only downside was his mental flakiness.

Of course if you all you care about is step back 20 footers, well...

[longhornfan1234]

The Bulls don't beat the Sonics without Dennis.

[G-train]

The Bulls don't beat the Sonics without Dennis.

They dont win a title any season in second three peat without him.

[tmacattack33]

He played a lower amount of minutes than usual in the playoffs (only 32.4 minutes per game in the playoffs during the Bulls three-peat).

His playoff per 36 minutes numbers are still good:

1996: 14.3 reb
1997: 10.8 reb
1998: 12.4 reb



Most stars get around 39 minutes per game in the playoffs...some stars even get up to 43 or 44 minutes per game in the playoffs.

Gasol has been given 39.1 minutes per game in the playoffs as a Laker.

[ZaaaaaH]

Dennis Rodman was so overrated to have been called one of the "Big 3" of the 2nd three-peat bulls, this is what Rodman averaged in 1996, 1997, and 1998 playoffs:

1996:
7.5ppg, 13.7rpg, 2.1apg, 48.5%FG

1997:
4.2ppg, 8.4rpg, 1.4apg, 37.0%FG

1998:
4.9ppg, 11.8rpg, 2.0apg, 37.1%FG


And here is what Pau Gasol averaged in the 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoffs:

2008:
16.9ppg, 9.3rpg, 4apg, 53%FG

2009:
18.3rpg, 10.8rpg, 2.5apg, 58%FG

2010:
19.6ppg, 11.1rpg, 3.5apg, 53.9%FG


The second three-peat Bulls has the WEAKEST frontcourt in the history of NBA out of all championship teams, and it's amazing how they could of threepeated against opponents such as Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning


Try harder or how about actually making comments about games you have watched instead of making decisions sole on stats.

[Micku]

Rodman energy, hustle plays, defense and rebounding really helped the Bulls into wins. He seemed like their most important player at times due to them not converting on the offense at times. I don't think he was overrated.

[KOBE143]

Is there really an idiot comparing Gasol to Rodman.. Really?

Rodman was the best rebounder of all time.. He's also one of the best defender of all time top 5 at worst.. He anchored the bulls defense better than any center in the league that time.. The only player who cant stop Prime Shaq literally.. And this idiot dare to compare him to Gasol, the softest pf of all time that played no defense at all.. Even you're a moron, please show some respect for Rodman dude..

[imdaman99]

They dont win a title any season in second three peat without him.
This :applause:

Jordan did not do it alone, and neither did Kobe or Lebron. Sheesh. Team defense >>>>

[La Frescobaldi]

If Dennis Rodman of the 2nd three-peat Bulls was playing in the NBA right now today he'd be the best defensive player in the League, he'd be winning the NBA rebounding titles, and if he was on any kind of contender he'd be headed at least to the Conference Finals. Rodman had indescribable impact.

His defense was otherworldly at times. He ain't the best rebounder of all time like a lot of people claim, but he is right up there at the top.

This thread is just wrong on every level. The idea that Pau Gasol has more impact on a team than Dennis Rodman is nutty. Rodman just ate opposing teams at times. Using stats to talk about Dennis Rodman is like using stats to talk about Bill Russell or Robert Parish.

[BankShot]

Basic per-game stats used as the primary argument?? Flawless. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[andgar923]

Dennis Rodman was so overrated to have been called one of the "Big 3" of the 2nd three-peat bulls, this is what Rodman averaged in 1996, 1997, and 1998 playoffs:

1996:
7.5ppg, 13.7rpg, 2.1apg, 48.5%FG

1997:
4.2ppg, 8.4rpg, 1.4apg, 37.0%FG

1998:
4.9ppg, 11.8rpg, 2.0apg, 37.1%FG


And here is what Pau Gasol averaged in the 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoffs:

2008:
16.9ppg, 9.3rpg, 4apg, 53%FG

2009:
18.3rpg, 10.8rpg, 2.5apg, 58%FG

2010:
19.6ppg, 11.1rpg, 3.5apg, 53.9%FG


The second three-peat Bulls has the WEAKEST frontcourt in the history of NBA out of all championship teams, and it's amazing how they could of threepeated against opponents such as Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning

LIke others have mentioned, what he brought can't be measured with stats.

Having said that

[DuMa]

dude wasnt an all-star but he had so much intangibles that didnt make the boxscore besides his rebounds. defense, lack of mental errors, being a pest to the opposing team's frontcourt, deflections, effort, and being an oddball kept most of his teammates on their toes. i alway sremember that story that phil sent rodman to atlantic city and dragged kerr and buechler with them and made the team much better chemistry wise.

[chazzy]

but one can even argue that he was a glorified role player (see Haslem)
Another gem from andgar :bowdown:

[La Frescobaldi]

[QUOTE=andgar923]LIke others have mentioned, what he brought can't be measured with stats.

Having said that

[Apocalyptic0n3]

Except you forgot to mention that Rodman is the all time greatest in something that cannot be measured by stats: on-ball defense. That 2nd 3-peat happened, in large part, due to how well Rodman could lock down ANY player on the floor. Anyone from the bigger centers to Stockton and Malone to younger guys like Hill (hard to call him "younger" considering how old he is now...). He could guard all five positions better than anyone in the league.

[andgar923]

LOL.
When Haslem gets DPOY or a rebounding title compare those guys.
No wait. Just when Haslem gets an All-Star team. A 2nd string NBA Defensive Team. Oh wait.

I didn't say he was, re-read.

[andgar923]

Except you forgot to mention that Rodman is the all time greatest in something that cannot be measured by stats: on-ball defense. That 2nd 3-peat happened, in large part, due to how well Rodman could lock down ANY player on the floor. Anyone from the bigger centers to Stockton and Malone to younger guys like Hill (hard to call him "younger" considering how old he is now...). He could guard all five positions better than anyone in the league.

He sure as f*ck didn't lock down any of the bigs he faced during their title runs.

He did a respectable job on them, but nowhere near LOCK down.

He did do a great job in throwing them off their game with his mental games tho.

[La Frescobaldi]

I didn't say he was, re-read.


""""It will sound very harsh for some reading, but one can even argue that he was a glorified role player (see Haslem)"""""

that sounds very harsh for anybody that saw Dennis Rodman play basketball.

[andgar923]

""""It will sound very harsh for some reading, but one can even argue that he was a glorified role player (see Haslem)"""""

that sounds very harsh for anybody that saw Dennis Rodman play basketball.

"but one can even argue"

I never stated that he was like Haslem, but one can certainly make an argument that he was a glorified role player similar to Haslem. A player that has one role which is to be tough defensively and rebound. Although even Haslem had to be an option offensively.

Rodman's sole focus was to rebound, that's what he did. If they ran plays for him he'd lose position and possibly use up some energy which will result in a decline in his boards.

We are also talking about an older Rodman and NOT the defensive player of the year version.

But as I mentioned, it sounds harsh but not my intention to diminish him as much as it may appear. Simply something to think about.

[Bandito]

Dennis Rodman was so overrated to have been called one of the "Big 3" of the 2nd three-peat bulls, this is what Rodman averaged in 1996, 1997, and 1998 playoffs:

1996:
7.5ppg, 13.7rpg, 2.1apg, 48.5%FG

1997:
4.2ppg, 8.4rpg, 1.4apg, 37.0%FG

1998:
4.9ppg, 11.8rpg, 2.0apg, 37.1%FG


And here is what Pau Gasol averaged in the 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoffs:

2008:
16.9ppg, 9.3rpg, 4apg, 53%FG

2009:
18.3rpg, 10.8rpg, 2.5apg, 58%FG

2010:
19.6ppg, 11.1rpg, 3.5apg, 53.9%FG


The second three-peat Bulls has the WEAKEST frontcourt in the history of NBA out of all championship teams, and it's amazing how they could of threepeated against opponents such as Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo MourningThat's what the Lebrontards says to put lebron on Mj's level.

[jlip]

Many people were saying that Rodman should have been the MVP of the '96 Finals. Also his presence (combined with Grant's injury) was the major difference in the outcome of the Bulls- Magic playoff series between '95 and '96.

[DatAsh]

Rodman is one of those players for whom his stats just don't tell the whole story. If I already have Jordan/Pippen, I'll take Rodman over Gasol every time.

[DatAsh]

The difference of course was that Rodman put up those rebounding numbers in 32 minutes a game to Gasol's 40 and was the anchor to the Bulls #1, #3 and #4 ranked defense. :facepalm

Rodman was at best the 3rd best defender on that team, arguably 4th. No single player was the defensive anchor of that team.

[DatAsh]

If Dennis Rodman of the 2nd three-peat Bulls was playing in the NBA right now today he'd be the best defensive player in the League, he'd be winning the NBA rebounding titles, and if he was on any kind of contender he'd be headed at least to the Conference Finals. Rodman had indescribable impact.

His defense was otherworldly at times. He ain't the best rebounder of all time like a lot of people claim, but he is right up there at the top.

This thread is just wrong on every level. The idea that Pau Gasol has more impact on a team than Dennis Rodman is nutty. Rodman just ate opposing teams at times. Using stats to talk about Dennis Rodman is like using stats to talk about Bill Russell or Robert Parish.

I agree with most of what you've said here, but 96-98' Rodman was not the defender that Dwight Howard is, not even close. Rodman's defense had fallen off substantially by the time he joined the Bulls.

[schism206]

Rodman is one of those players for whom his stats just don't tell the whole story. If I already have Jordan/Pippen, I'll take Rodman over Gasol every time.
Agreed:cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Rodman was at best the 3rd best defender on that team, arguably 4th. No single player was the defensive anchor of that team.

And it must be some strange coincidence that Rodman had the lowest individual defensive rating on the team for those years on the Bulls as well. :facepalm

[fpliii]

And it must be some strange coincidence that Rodman had the lowest individual defensive rating on the team for those years on the Bulls as well. :facepalm

individual defensive ratings are calculated from box score numbers and are inherently useless (see Boozer)

they undersell great perimeter defenders (Bowen, Dumars, Kobe, etc.)

team defensive ratings are quite useful, but not for this discussion

I think Rodman was the 3rd best defender (after Pippen, Jordan), but the most important since he was able to slow down/shut down dominant bigs (pretty much all he could do at that point his career)

without Rodman the threepeat doesn't happen (not going to speculate as to how many those Bulls win), but he was certainly not the defensive anchor (Worm was an excellent man defender, though not an all-time great help/team defender or paint protector)...that honor goes to Pippen IMO

[DatAsh]

And it must be some strange coincidence that Rodman had the lowest individual defensive rating on the team for those years on the Bulls as well. :facepalm

I'm not saying Rodman wasn't a great defender, but to say that he was the Bull's defensive anchor is incorrect. Like I said, the second three-peat Bulls didn't really have a defensive anchor per say, they were great for two reasons.

1) Talent - They had one excellent defender in Scottie Pippen, three great defenders in Jordan, Rodman, and Harper, and several more above average defenders.
2) Mindset/Effort - Those Bulls were one of the few teams who really put in 100% effort each and every night.

[Brunch@Five]

Rodman's defense on the Bulls is indeed vastly overrated. Guard all 5 positions? Please. This wasn't 1989 anymore.
He was still a great defender, but often he would sacrifice a good defensive position for a good rebounding position

[icewill36]

idk, about overrated, but karl malone shouldve killed rodman. jazz lost because he didnt step up. rodman pretty much dared him to shoot and he just couldnt make them, even though he had for most of his career. some people say it was the gay stuff rodman did to rattle opponents, but he still should have played better than he did.

sonics clearly didnt believe they could win, especially guys like detlef. payton seemed to be the only one to play with a "fukk chicago" mentality. he wasnt afraid of them like many of his teammates.

[stax]

http://i.imgur.com/xKvmT.jpg

[monkeypox]

My big issue with Rodman was how much he messed with the offense and defense and he focused on positioning for rebounds. I think I remember hearing Tex Winter at the time lamenting how he would ruin rotations or mess things up for teammates in order to secure rebounds. Reminds me of the Clippers era Camby. Great box score numbers, but you'd sometimes see him steal rebounds from teammates instead of running back.

[Legends66NBA7]

idk, about overrated, but karl malone shouldve killed rodman. jazz lost because he didnt step up. rodman pretty much dared him to shoot and he just couldnt make them, even though he had for most of his career.

Karl Malone is overrated. Rodman wasn't the one who discouraged him in "stepping up". He choked in big games before 97 and 98 Finals and after.

Malone should've killed a lot of guys when the playoffs came around (he obviously did get his in some series), but he overall didn't step up enough like other have in the past and present. Same goes for John Stockton. They had too many inconsistencies.

[rodman91]

Downgrading Rodman is retarded way to imply Jordan is better than Kobe, OP.

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/1138072_o.gif

[scandisk_]

MJ, Pip, PJax and the rest of the Bulls roster had nothing but praises for The Worm's 100% effort on the court. Overrated my a$$

[madmax17]

http://i.imgur.com/xKvmT.jpgAlways wondered how this picture ends :lol does he fall on his stomach or wut

[La Frescobaldi]

"but one can even argue"

I never stated that he was like Haslem, but one can certainly make an argument that he was a glorified role player similar to Haslem. A player that has one role which is to be tough defensively and rebound. Although even Haslem had to be an option offensively.

Rodman's sole focus was to rebound, that's what he did. If they ran plays for him he'd lose position and possibly use up some energy which will result in a decline in his boards.

We are also talking about an older Rodman and NOT the defensive player of the year version.

But as I mentioned, it sounds harsh but not my intention to diminish him as much as it may appear. Simply something to think about.

You put Haslem name in there exactly to say Rodman was like him. Don't try and sniggle out of what you did, putting those names in the same breath like that.

And no. Sorry. None of this is correct.
Rebounding wasn't ever Rodman's sole focus, contrary to myth. Teams seldom ran plays for D Rod because he had low scoring skills due to his late start in the game. His energy level was insane, out-driving everyone on the court for many minutes even when he was aged. And his defense got smarter as he got older to the point where he was a literal defensive genius in the late '90s.

We can disagree all right, but at least use some fact somewhere.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

As absurd as the premise the comparison isn't even Rodman vs Gasol. Ir's Rodman vs Lamar Odom. Scottie Pippen vs Pau Gasol. :confusedshrug:

[guy]

Rodman was a glorified role player. Why the hell is anyone arguing that he wasn't? It doesn't mean he wasn't an all-time great player, but any player thats success comes mainly from his hustle and energy and is basically almost useless offensively is a role player. Rodman literally is just a much better version of someone like Reggie Evans. There roles were basically the same, Rodman just being much better and more consistent at it.

And Rodman being better then Gasol? :oldlol: Gasol should be compared to Pippen, not Rodman.

[rodman91]

Rodman is role player, Pippen is complimentary player, Kukoc is euro trash ,poor Mike did it all by himself.:rolleyes:

In second three peat, Pippen was almost superstar, Rodman was borderline all star player. Kukoc could be easily star player in most of the teams.

None of these can stain MJ's GOAT status. It means Bulls were that good.

[guy]

Rodman is role player, Pippen is complimentary player, Kukoc is euro trash ,poor Mike did it all by himself.:rolleyes:

In second three peat, Pippen was almost superstar, Rodman was borderline all star player. Kukoc could be easily star player in most of the teams.

None of these can stain MJ's GOAT status. It means Bulls were that good.


Saying Rodman was a role player doesn't mean he wasn't a great player and Jordan did everything by himself. Rodman was a role player even when he was making all-star teams in Detroit. He's arguably the greatest role player ever, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a role player.

[La Frescobaldi]

Saying Rodman was a role player doesn't mean he wasn't a great player and Jordan did everything by himself. Rodman was a role player even when he was making all-star teams in Detroit. He's arguably the greatest role player ever, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a role player.


I don't care a whole lot for math but really you should indulge yourself.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1143

[guy]

I don't care a whole lot for math but really you should indulge yourself.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1143

I'm not going to bother reading all that, because numbers have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Rodman is the type of player that is always defined as a role player. That's not diminishing him, even if you think it is, its just stating the truth. Doesn't mean he doesn't have a huge impact on his teams, cause he did. But generally, players who's job is to do the thing that he does and nothing else are defined as role players.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rodman was a glorified role player. Why the hell is anyone arguing that he wasn't? It doesn't mean he wasn't an all-time great player, but any player thats success comes mainly from his hustle and energy and is basically almost useless offensively is a role player. Rodman literally is just a much better version of someone like Reggie Evans. There roles were basically the same, Rodman just being much better and more consistent at it.

And Rodman being better then Gasol? :oldlol: Gasol should be compared to Pippen, not Rodman.

So you agree that (prime) Ben Wallace a role player? :confusedshrug:

[guy]

So you agree that (prime) Ben Wallace a role player?

Sure I'd agree with that. Like I said, that doesn't mean they aren't two of the greatest players ever, easily in the top 75-100 players of all-time, but they are still glorified role players like someone else said.

[swi7ch]

it's amazing how they could of threepeated against opponents such as Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning

Don't forget Hakeem and Robinson! They were still effective and All-Stars during the Bulls' second 3-peat.

Goes to show how GOAT Jordan really is.

[rodman91]

Sure I'd agree with that. Like I said, that doesn't mean they aren't two of the greatest players ever, easily in the top 75-100 players of all-time, but they are still glorified role players like someone else said.

Bill Russel would be greatest glorified role player too then. If guys like Barkley,Amare,Melo doesn't considered as role players because they can't defend, Rodman & Wallace should not be considered as role players because they can't score.

Ron Harper second threepeat was a great role player. Luc Longley was a role player. Rodman was a star player for the Bulls.

[La Frescobaldi]

Don't forget Hakeem and Robinson! They were still effective and All-Stars during the Bulls' second 3-peat.

Goes to show how GOAT Jordan really is.


You can equally argue it goes to show how GOAT Rodman really is at defense. Or Pippen.

Jordan threw up desperately all over the 80s as far as rings. He had to have great players around him to do all that.

[La Frescobaldi]

Bill Russel would be greatest glorified role player too then. If guys like Barkley,Amare,Melo doesn't considered as role players because they can't defend, Rodman & Wallace should not be considered as role players because they can't score.

Ron Harper second threepeat was a great role player. Luc Longley was a role player. Rodman was a star player for the Bulls.

that's exactly right.

[jlip]

Don't forget Hakeem and Robinson! They were still effective and All-Stars during the Bulls' second 3-peat.

Goes to show how GOAT Jordan really is.

The presence of Hakeem and Robinson does absolutely nothing for Jordan's legacy as he never faced either of them even once in the playoffs. If anything, it actually strengthens the legacy of the other stars such as those who eliminated those two from the playoffs preventing them from making it to the Finals during Jordan's championship runs .

[guy]

Bill Russel would be greatest glorified role player too then. If guys like Barkley,Amare,Melo doesn't considered as role players because they can't defend, Rodman & Wallace should not be considered as role players because they can't score.

Ron Harper second threepeat was a great role player. Luc Longley was a role player. Rodman was a star player for the Bulls.

Actually, Russell was expected to score and pass as well. He wasn't Wilt or Oscar in that regard, but he wasn't just asked to do basically nothing on offense but offensive rebound like those guys.

We're really just talking about labels. Generally, its those type of players that people call "role players". You can call it whatever you want, but thats what most people call those type of players.

[Kblaze8855]

Rodman was a role player even when he was making all-star teams in Detroit. He's arguably the greatest role player ever, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a role player.


There are 3 things basketball requires. Offense, defense, and getting the ball. Dennis is in the discussion for the greatest player to ever do 2 of them. Would I put him over russell? No. Would I say hes flat out miles better than Barkley as a rebounder considering Barkley also had to play offense at a high level? No.

Is it reasonable to bring up Rodmans name in discussion of the best? Yes.

But he does not score. He did however set great screens, is probably the best offensive rebounder ever, could pass, and ran the floor well. He did everything on offense well other than actually put the ball in the basket and dribble.

He did literally everything on defense well other than be a great shot blocker and even that was partly because he was solid off the ball and didnt often allow the penetration that would result in needing toe block a shot....but still.

He did everything else well.

Hes good at most elements of offense, virtually everything you do on a court without scoring, and might be the GOAT rebounder.

So im assuming that to you...the only way to be a star is to dribble and score? No combo of other things one can do is enough...is it?

If all we measure is...what you do without dribbling or shooting...who....ever...is better than Dennis Rodman? Not me saying the answer is nobody...just asking.

Who is it? How many are there?

[SHAQisGOAT]

There are 3 things basketball requires. Offense, defense, and getting the ball. Dennis is in the discussion for the greatest player to ever do 2 of them. Would I put him over russell? No. Would I say hes flat out miles better than Barkley as a rebounder considering Barkley also had to play offense at a high level? No.

Is it reasonable to bring up Rodmans name in discussion of the best? Yes.

But he does not score. He did however set great screens, is probably the best offensive rebounder ever, could pass, and ran the floor well. He did everything on offense well other than actually put the ball in the basket and dribble.

He did literally everything on defense well other than be a great shot blocker and even that was partly because he was solid off the ball and didnt often allow the penetration that would result in needing toe block a shot....but still.

He did everything else well.

Hes good at most elements of offense, virtually everything you do on a court without scoring, and might be the GOAT rebounder.

So im assuming that to you...the only way to be a star is to dribble and score? No combo of other things one can do is enough...is it?

If all we measure is...what you do without dribbling or shooting...who....ever...is better than Dennis Rodman? Not me saying the answer is nobody...just asking.

Who is it? How many are there?

Well said. I do think that the best offensive rebounder is Moses, but the best rebounder ever is arguably Rodman imo

[andgar923]

There are 3 things basketball requires. Offense, defense, and getting the ball. Dennis is in the discussion for the greatest player to ever do 2 of them. Would I put him over russell? No. Would I say hes flat out miles better than Barkley as a rebounder considering Barkley also had to play offense at a high level? No.

Is it reasonable to bring up Rodmans name in discussion of the best? Yes.

But he does not score. He did however set great screens, is probably the best offensive rebounder ever, could pass, and ran the floor well. He did everything on offense well other than actually put the ball in the basket and dribble.

He did literally everything on defense well other than be a great shot blocker and even that was partly because he was solid off the ball and didnt often allow the penetration that would result in needing toe block a shot....but still.

He did everything else well.

Hes good at most elements of offense, virtually everything you do on a court without scoring, and might be the GOAT rebounder.

So im assuming that to you...the only way to be a star is to dribble and score? No combo of other things one can do is enough...is it?

If all we measure is...what you do without dribbling or shooting...who....ever...is better than Dennis Rodman? Not me saying the answer is nobody...just asking.

Who is it? How many are there?

I agree, and I know it seems as tho some of us are knocking him (I'm not), but when all he does is focus on rebounding his numbers are gonna be higher than somebody that's asked to do other things offensively.

Yes setting screens matter, but after that he positions to 'rebound' and nothing else. When other players set screens, they set them to possibly get the ball to shoot. We've seen Rodman pad his rebounding at least once every single game (often more). Not to say he wouldn't be a great rebounder or that he wasn't, but his stats are somewhat misleading.

There's no doubt that the Bulls don't win without his contributions, I don't think anybody has argued that (not to say you said it). But he wasn't the defensive juggernaut that he was when he was a Piston, and he never LOCKED DOWN anybody like some have even stated.

[rodman91]

I agree, and I know it seems as tho some of us are knocking him (I'm not), but when all he does is focus on rebounding his numbers are gonna be higher than somebody that's asked to do other things offensively.

Yes setting screens matter, but after that he positions to 'rebound' and nothing else. When other players set screens, they set them to possibly get the ball to shoot. We've seen Rodman pad his rebounding at least once every single game (often more). Not to say he wouldn't be a great rebounder or that he wasn't, but his stats are somewhat misleading.

There's no doubt that the Bulls don't win without his contributions, I don't think anybody has argued that (not to say you said it). But he wasn't the defensive juggernaut that he was when he was a Piston, and he never LOCKED DOWN anybody like some have even stated.

He was lock down defender at low post. He wasn't the guy who can also guard perimeter players great like in Pistons but he was still one of the best guys in low post. (He was 34-36 years old at that time.People usually forget his age because he was too energetic & dominant on boards)

I have seen many games he shut down or at least slowed down some of the HOFer big men when he was in Bulls. There are many games on youtube about that.

When he was playing for Lakers & Mavs, he seemed less interested in defense compared to Bulls & Pistons years but rebounding was still there even at 37-38 years old.

[andgar923]

He was lock down defender at low post. He wasn't the guy who can also guard perimeter players great like in Pistons but he was still one of the best guys in low post. (He was 34-36 years old at that time.People usually forget his age because he was too energetic & dominant on boards)

I have seen many games he shut down or at least slowed down some of the HOFer big men when he was in Bulls. There are many games on youtube about that.

When he was playing for Lakers & Mavs, he seemed less interested in defense compared to Bulls & Pistons years but rebounding was still there even at 37-38 years old.

No he was NOT a lock down defender in the post. He was 'good-great' at times, but he never locked anybody down. All the good bigs still got theirs, they just had to work a bit harder.

His strength was messing with their psyche, he would annoy and frustrate them, but he wouldn't lock them down.

Unless we have completely different meanings on what 'locking down' is.

To me locking down is, the mufuhka aint scoring on him, and maybe get a rebound or two on him. He did throw them outta their games and comfort zones, but I wouldn't call that locking down. Semantics I agree, but there should be some clarification before shit runs wild.

Honestly, you could've replaced him with another good rebounder/defender. But the Bulls probably don't win 3 in a row. His strengths were his ability to get under people's skin, he was as tough as they ever came and that's something that no stat measures.

[Teanett]

To me locking down is, the mufuhka aint scoring on him, and maybe get a rebound or two on him. He did throw them outta their games and comfort zones, but I wouldn't call that locking down. Semantics I agree, but there should be some clarification before shit runs wild.



we're talking about defending patrick ewing, karl malone, shaq, mourning, barkeley, shawn kemp.
going by your definition, nobody locks them down. it never happened.

[andgar923]

we're talking about defending patrick ewing, karl malone, shaq, mourning, barkeley, shawn kemp.
going by your definition, nobody locks them down. it never happened.

I can't recall them per se, but I've seen star players get locked down based on my interoperation. I'm sure there's been times when even they were locked down vs a defender. Remember, Rodman or said defender doesn't defend them all game every possession. It is very feasible for a defender to lock somebody down.

[rodman91]

No he was NOT a lock down defender in the post. He was 'good-great' at times, but he never locked anybody down. All the good bigs still got theirs, they just had to work a bit harder.

His strength was messing with their psyche, he would annoy and frustrate them, but he wouldn't lock them down.

Unless we have completely different meanings on what 'locking down' is.

To me locking down is, the mufuhka aint scoring on him, and maybe get a rebound or two on him. He did throw them outta their games and comfort zones, but I wouldn't call that locking down. Semantics I agree, but there should be some clarification before shit runs wild.

Honestly, you could've replaced him with another good rebounder/defender. But the Bulls probably don't win 3 in a row. His strengths were his ability to get under people's skin, he was as tough as they ever came and that's something that no stat measures.

He slowed down Shaq in playoffs, locked down malone most of the series in finals. There are regular season games where he locked down Shaq & Hakeem in 4th quarter etc.

I don't know what do you mean with not allowed to score at all or giving a rebound as being a lock down defender.. Nobody can do that entire game in NBA history against HOFers.

[AlphaWolf24]

Why do Jordan stans slight alltime greats ( Rodman was the greatest defender /rebouder /energy guy of his generation) to prop up MJ???


silly...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why do Jordan stans slight alltime greats ( Rodman was the greatest defender /rebouder /energy guy of his generation) to prop up MJ???


silly...

You just answered your own question.

[ThaRegul8r]

Just so everyone is clear, "role player" is code for any player who doesn't provide volume scoring.

(Note that no one would ever a call a player who only volume scored and did absolutely nothing else of worth on a basketball court a "role player.")

[fpliii]

Just so everyone is clear, "role player" is code for any player who doesn't provide volume scoring.

(Note that no one would ever a call a player who only volume scored and did absolutely nothing else of worth on a basketball court a "role player.")

Pretty much, according to the opinions voiced in this thread...

[Psileas]

Just so everyone is clear, "role player" is code for any player who doesn't provide volume scoring.

(Note that no one would ever a call a player who only volume scored and did absolutely nothing else of worth on a basketball court a "role player.")

Just when I was ready to mention Reggie Miller...And Rodman was a greater rebounder than Miller was a scorer, and he actually did a second thing great, play interior defense.

[Legends66NBA7]

Just when I was ready to mention Reggie Miller...And Rodman was a greater rebounder than Miller was a scorer, and he actually did a second thing great, play interior defense.

Not to mention, his passing/facilitating is pretty underrated too.

[La Frescobaldi]

Not to mention, his passing/facilitating is pretty underrated too.

Rodman in transition game was just.... Glory Be

[jlip]

There was just way too much logic in these last few posts.

[Kblaze8855]

I agree, and I know it seems as tho some of us are knocking him (I'm not), but when all he does is focus on rebounding his numbers are gonna be higher than somebody that's asked to do other things offensively.

Yes setting screens matter, but after that he positions to 'rebound' and nothing else. When other players set screens, they set them to possibly get the ball to shoot. We've seen Rodman pad his rebounding at least once every single game (often more). Not to say he wouldn't be a great rebounder or that he wasn't, but his stats are somewhat misleading.

There's no doubt that the Bulls don't win without his contributions, I don't think anybody has argued that (not to say you said it). But he wasn't the defensive juggernaut that he was when he was a Piston, and he never LOCKED DOWN anybody like some have even stated.

Question...who...and I mean ever..."locks down" bigtime scorers who are bigmen?

Maybe Wilt when he was really up for a matchup?

Lets say from 75-now. Who ever just...locked down the Shaqs, Malones, Barkleys, Robinsons, Mchales, and so on?

Rodman(like a few others) got as close as can be expected but he didnt stop them...and it wasnt expected. A great one on one defender in the frontcourt isnt supposed to harrass a guy into a 6-19 shooting night like say...Gary Payton might to a point guard.

Rodman was the NBA version of a great man to man corner in the NFL. Hes not great because he can keep an all time great from a catch. Hes great because he can guard an all time great by himself and not allow that players presence to benefit his teammates as much as usual.

Hes not gonna stop Shaq. Or Malone. Or Barkley. Hes gonna get up for the matchup and guard them hard and get in their heads and kick and brawl and whatever he has to do. But he makes it personal. And that is the key.

When you dont have to collapse into the paint to keep a guy from dropping 40 he has to beat you himself because his teammates arent used to picking up the slack when they arent getting the open looks generated by having to rotate after a double team.

Karl can drop 40...Dennis can hold him to 20...or less. hes done both. But Dennis will not need help. If Karl drops 40 its a "Nothing you can do" 40. A jumper 40. A "Well...if hes gonna make that...." 40. Not a abusing the defender for easy looks 40.

And there is a difference.

Dennis did exactly what he was supposed to do. Not just...shut a guy down. That would be nice....but bigmen arent really shut down. They are bothered. And their impact can be minimized. He did both at an all time great level.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and im reminded of one of my favorite plays of the 90s. Shaq had Dennis one on one. Kinda deep position. Shaq goes to his "black tornado" move as he came to call it. He spins...Dennis is still right in his face. Shaq looks a bit puzzled and just shoots what I guess id call a floater. And really I dont remember if it went in or not. It may well have. But watching him go to his trademark mega dropstep and have Dennis take it on the chest and not budge...and see him so thrown off he just gently lobs the ball in the general direction of the basket?

Its not like Dennis was strong enough to just oppose Shaq. He kinda..rolled with the punch so to speak. Shaq spins off and ends up right in front of Dennis...with no idea what to do.

As a lover of defense...that was beautiful. The footwork...the strength. The poise. 90% of guys go flying. Dennis is like 230 pounds...and he doesnt move an inch.

Shaq probably had his usual 25-30....but Dennis did what he always does. Find your comfort zone and fight you for it.

All you ask of a defender around the basket.

[DatAsh]

Why do Jordan stans slight alltime greats ( Rodman was the greatest defender /rebouder /energy guy of his generation) to prop up MJ???


silly...

It' for the same reason that you and other Kobe fans slight Shaq/Gasol/Odom. They're trying to push an agenda.

[andgar923]

Question...who...and I mean ever..."locks down" bigtime scorers who are bigmen?

Maybe Wilt when he was really up for a matchup?

Lets say from 75-now. Who ever just...locked down the Shaqs, Malones, Barkleys, Robinsons, Mchales, and so on?

Rodman(like a few others) got as close as can be expected but he didnt stop them...and it wasnt expected. A great one on one defender in the frontcourt isnt supposed to harrass a guy into a 6-19 shooting night like say...Gary Payton might to a point guard.

Rodman was the NBA version of a great man to man corner in the NFL. Hes not great because he can keep an all time great from a catch. Hes great because he can guard an all time great by himself and not allow that players presence to benefit his teammates as much as usual.

Hes not gonna stop Shaq. Or Malone. Or Barkley. Hes gonna get up for the matchup and guard them hard and get in their heads and kick and brawl and whatever he has to do. But he makes it personal. And that is the key.

When you dont have to collapse into the paint to keep a guy from dropping 40 he has to beat you himself because his teammates arent used to picking up the slack when they arent getting the open looks generated by having to rotate after a double team.

Karl can drop 40...Dennis can hold him to 20...or less. hes done both. But Dennis will not need help. If Karl drops 40 its a "Nothing you can do" 40. A jumper 40. A "Well...if hes gonna make that...." 40. Not a abusing the defender for easy looks 40.

And there is a difference.

Dennis did exactly what he was supposed to do. Not just...shut a guy down. That would be nice....but bigmen arent really shut down. They are bothered. And their impact can be minimized. He did both at an all time great level.

I never said he locked down people tho.

I basically echoed some of the same sentiments you and others have stated regarding his impact and his defense.

[LBJFTW]

The most most distinguished trait of Rodman is that he simply did what he was asked to do. On the pistons he was asked to be a lock down defender. With the Bulls he was asked to focus on rebounds. He trusted his coaches decisions based on who his teammates were and molded his game into what his TEAM at the time needed. Had he been asked to be a 3 point specialist or a swing-man, he would have undoubtedly been successful if that is what was asked and required of him. He was just that physically gifted and motivated to achieve whatever.

[DatAsh]

Question...who...and I mean ever..."locks down" bigtime scorers who are bigmen?

Maybe Wilt when he was really up for a matchup?


Going by that definition, no one in the history of the game is a lock-down defender, not even Russell.

Wilt had plenty of huge games against Russell, as did Kareem against Wilt.

[Duncan21formvp]

Just so everyone is clear, "role player" is code for any player who doesn't provide volume scoring.

(Note that no one would ever a call a player who only volume scored and did absolutely nothing else of worth on a basketball court a "role player.")
Wouldn't say that. I would say more so a guy who doesn't make the allstar team is a role player.

[DatAsh]

Oh and im reminded of one of my favorite plays of the 90s. Shaq had Dennis one on one. Kinda deep position. Shaq goes to his "black tornado" move as he came to call it. He spins...Dennis is still right in his face. Shaq looks a bit puzzled and just shoots what I guess id call a floater. And really I dont remember if it went in or not. It may well have. But watching him go to his trademark mega dropstep and have Dennis take it on the chest and not budge...and see him so thrown off he just gently lobs the ball in the general direction of the basket?

Its not like Dennis was strong enough to just oppose Shaq. He kinda..rolled with the punch so to speak. Shaq spins off and ends up right in front of Dennis...with no idea what to do.

As a lover of defense...that was beautiful. The footwork...the strength. The poise. 90% of guys go flying. Dennis is like 230 pounds...and he doesnt move an inch.

Shaq probably had his usual 25-30....but Dennis did what he always does. Find your comfort zone and fight you for it.

All you ask of a defender around the basket.

Do you by chance remember what game that was?

[TheFan]

Bulls - Rodman = falling to teams with muscle on the paint... watch 95 playoff series vs the Magic for an example.

[Kblaze8855]

Going by that definition, no one in the history of the game is a lock-down defender, not even Russell.

Wilt had plenty of huge games against Russell, as did Kareem against Wilt.


that's the whole point. you don't shut down a great player who plays 8 feet from the basket. You just bother him.

[DatAsh]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but one of Rodman's many intangibles was his ability to get the home crowd into a game.

[andgar923]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but one of Rodman's many intangibles was his ability to get the home crowd into a game.

Code name for 'role player' :oldlol:

[DatAsh]

that's the whole point. you don't shut down a great player who plays 8 feet from the basket. You just bother him.

I was disagreeing with the person you quoted. I should have made that more clear.

[fpliii]

Code name for 'role player' :oldlol:

:wtf:

[AlphaWolf24]

It' for the same reason that you and other Kobe fans slight Shaq/Gasol/Odom. They're trying to push an agenda.


- How do I slight those guys?.....because I responded in the countless threads of " Shaq , Gasol etc. etc. carried Kobe...without ____________ (fill in random player) Kobe can't win"

- it was mainly tongue in cheek comments.....posted in the "Kobe slighting day of the week" threads

- When I create my own threads that are "hater proof".....you will see I talk real basketball and always rep each of the players and thier impact.

- I already created the greatest Shaq thread and recognized his greatness.....it's only when the basketball illiterate speak that I go full retard mode.


deal wit it.

[AlphaWolf24]

Code name for 'role player' :oldlol:


Rodman = 96' Finals co FMVP.

[DatAsh]

One of my favorite Rodman on Shaq moments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s

for 95% of defenders, that would have been dunk or dunk-and-1.

[Kblaze8855]

that was beautiful. The black tornado got him that time but even if you win you don't win. Just grab him and piss him off

[Lebron23]

1996 Shawn Kemp and 1998 Karl Malone put up quality numbers againts Rodman in the Finals. Rodman was the Bulls 3rd best defender from 1996-1998.

[La Frescobaldi]

One of my favorite Rodman on Shaq moments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s

for 95% of defenders, that would have been dunk or dunk-and-1.

that whole clip is just destruction of the crap idea of this thread.

D Rod overpowered Shaquille O'Neal in every basketball term.

[swi7ch]

One of my favorite Rodman on Shaq moments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s

for 95% of defenders, that would have been dunk or dunk-and-1.

I know this is a Rodman thread but how is it humanly possible for a 7-1, 330 pound person to spin like that? :wtf:

[Clifton]

He's arguably the greatest role player ever, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a role player.
Who says you can't be a superstar without being a scorer?

Was Ben Wallace a role player?

No.

Rodman was a star. He was a game-changer. He stuck out much more, and did much more for a team, than a guy like Joe Johnson who can be the #1 offensive option on a good team.

Would you rather have Rodman or a "generic" all-star type wing player like Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson or Danny Granger?

Those guys are a dime a dozen. Every team has one or two. But there aren't any Rodmans that I know of. There are poor man's Rodmans, like Reggie Evans, but that's not the same thing. There are thinking man's Rodmans, like Shane Battier, but that's not the same thing either. Rodman getting 20 boards does more for the team intangibly than Battier hitting 6 open 3s.

When I watch 90s Bulls games - which I will admit I was not there for that run, and have seen only a few - Rodman's personality and presence sticks out nearly as much as Pippen's. He was clearly #3, but he was much bigger than Ron Harper, and nobody would create a screen name today JordanPippenEvans.

[VegasLakerFan]

A lot of Rodman's influence can not be found in the stat sheet. His presence at the end of games and in crucial situations was pretty impactful from what I remember. It was WHEN he got a big rebound and WHEN he made a great defensive play for the Bulls that mattered more than stats.

[Teanett]

Going by that definition, no one in the history of the game is a lock-down defender, not even Russell.

Wilt had plenty of huge games against Russell, as did Kareem against Wilt.

this.

there is no lock-down defender in the nba, because the quality of offense is too high. all the paytons, pippens, rodmans... will get scored on.
it's not like at your local gym where a half decent player will "lock down" a total scrub.

[pauk]

He also brought impactful intangibles, which you wont see on the statsheet...

[Sharmer]

If I was building a team, I would definitely have a specialist like Rodman.