Better Defensive Anchor: Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo?

[fpliii]

What do you think?

[TheSilentKiller]

Ben Wallace. I am biased, but he has a pretty big edge over Dikembe

[fpliii]

Ben Wallace. I am biased, but he has a pretty big edge over Dikembe

I agree...not biased personally, but I think Deke's defense is fairly overrated (all-time great shotblocker for sure and his longevity should be commended), but Big Ben had a much bigger impact on that side of the ball.

[Solid Snake]

lol. kids.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo for sure.

Not sure if the posters above have ever watched Mutombo playing.

[Whoah10115]

Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo for sure.

Not sure if the posters above have ever watched Mutombo playing.



This right here. He'd average 4BPG if people weren't so scared of going to the rim.

[Chapallaz]

I'm afraid Ben would have been eaten alive by the centers Deke played against.

[fpliii]

lol. kids.

Thanks for being condescending/rude and contributing absolutely nothing to the thread! :cheers:


Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo for sure.

Not sure if the posters above have ever watched Mutombo playing.

Can't speak for TheSilentKiller, but I started watching in '91.


This right here. He'd average 4BPG if people weren't so scared of going to the rim.

I didn't ask who was the better shotblocker...


I'm afraid Ben would have been eaten alive by the centers Deke played against.

Who in particular?

Note the title...the only defenses that Deke anchored that were elite were in Atlanta. Some of the Big Ben's teams were all-time great defensively.

[plowking]

Wallace.

I've always felt Mutombo was overrated in terms of being a rim protector. I don't think he was the best defensive player of his time despite what his achievements say.

[Chapallaz]

Ewing, Olajuwon, Smits, Robinson, O'Neal, Daugherty, Coleman.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Note the title...the only defenses that Deke anchored that were elite were in Atlanta. Some of the Big Ben's teams were all-time great defensively.

He was great in his Pistons days. Im big fan of them, but they had 5 great defenders on 5 positions in their primes. Thats why they were so great defensively. Big Ben is too small to compare him with all time great centers like Russell, Wilt, Mutombo etc. But he was one of the best in his era. Tell me what happened with him when he left the Pistons?

Prime vs prime, Dikembe by a bit.
Career vs career, Dikembe and its not even close.

[Jolokia]

Probably Alonzo Mourning

[Chapallaz]

Note the title...the only defenses that Deke anchored that were elite were in Atlanta. Some of the Big Ben's teams were all-time great defensively.


Team Defense:
Billups, Hamilton, Sheed, Prince>>>>>>>>>>>>Abdul Rauf, Ellis, Williams, Stith

With those last names you can anchor all you want. Detroit was incredibly well balanced.

[jlip]

Mutombo. I'm trying to remember the pfs Mutombo played with during his top defensive seasons in Atlanta and Philly and can't think of them at the moment. With Ben Wallace I often felt that as good as he was individually as a defender, he also benefitted from having Rasheed Wallace. I know he won DPOY before Sheed was traded to the Pistons. I admitted that he as already a dominant defender, but again I feel that his most impacting seasons were with Sheed.

[Whoah10115]

I didn't ask who was the better shotblocker...


Note the title...the only defenses that Deke anchored that were elite were in Atlanta. Some of the Big Ben's teams were all-time great defensively.



Mutombo was the better defender. As a pure anchor, Wallace was a more all-around defender, but Mutombo's impact was massive. And he was a better post defender.

[Chapallaz]

Mutombo. I'm trying to remember the pfs Mutombo played with during his top defensive seasons in Atlanta and Philly and can't think of them at the moment. With Ben Wallace I often felt that as good as he was individually as a defender, he also benefitted from having Rasheed Wallace. I know he won DPOY before Sheed was traded to the Pistons. I admitted that we as already a dominant defender, but again I feel that his most impacting seasons were with Sheed.

Hill (Philly) and McDyess (Denver).

[embersyc]

Team Defense:
Billups, Hamilton, Sheed, Prince>>>>>>>>>>>>Abdul Rauf, Ellis, Williams, Stith

With those last names you can anchor all you want. Detroit was incredibly well balanced.

Ben earned his rep playing along Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Mike Curry, and Cliff Robinson...

[Chapallaz]

Ben earned his rep playing along Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Mike Curry, and Cliff Robinson...
With Clifford Robinson being a very nice defensive player...

[Clippersfan86]

Wallace pretty clearly to me. Similar defensive resume and played great man D as well. Mutumbo was a better Ibaka defensively. Wallace anchored arguably the greatest defense in NBA history.

[Teanett]

Mutumbo was a better Ibaka defensively.

other than being from congo originally, their defensive styles have nothing in common.

[Chapallaz]

Mutumbo was a better Ibaka defensively.

:wtf:

[Teanett]

dike was better.

rasheed and cliff robinson were better defensively than any forward dike ever played with.

[Clippersfan86]

other than being from congo originally, their defensive styles have nothing in common.

What I mean is that they are two of the top shotblocking players of all time, getting a majority from weakside. Great rim protectors, not good man defenders. Mutumbo has been called an overrated defender by some, could never say that about Ben. I'm comparing strengths,and production, **** style. I would have been a baby when Mutumbo first came into the league but I watched him on the Hawks towards the end and the Sixers. Didn't he also play for the Nuggets or am I thinking of somebody else?

Maybe I am just remembering later parts of his career where as I saw entire prime Ben.

[StateOfMind12]

Wallace, he was better at disrupting pick and rolls and penetration to the lane. Mutombo was a better post-defender. Disrupting pick and rolls and blocking penetration is far more important to me for a defensive big men. Ben was like a shot blocking version of KG.

[Teanett]

What I mean is that they are two of the top shotblocking players of all time, getting a majority from weakside.

so, you never saw dike play...
mutombo not a good man defender?
i once watched a game when he was playing the heat, with brian grant and anthony mason, both all-stars that year. they were so intimidated they refused to shoot.
dike got most blocks from the weakside??? bullshit. he could block his man playing straight up one on one d. that's why he's a much better man and post defender than ben.

[ILLsmak]

Wallace.

I've always felt Mutombo was overrated in terms of being a rim protector. I don't think he was the best defensive player of his time despite what his achievements say.

Ben Wallace has an intimidation factor. The only center I remember housing Ben was Shaq, but it could be argued he did Deke dirtier.

It's really hard to say who is better. They are different. Ben Wallace was tiny, too. Deke could at least score in the post. But individually, I'd take Ben Wallace to stick on anyone except prime Shaq.

-Smak

[Teanett]

Ben Wallace has an intimidation factor. The only center I remember housing Ben was Shaq, but it could be argued he did Deke dirtier.


no.
check the stats for the finals 2001 +2004.
motumbo did a respectable job on peak-prime-mde shaq.
big ben was chicken wings breakfast for the not so prime shaq.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Ben Wallace has an intimidation factor. The only center I remember housing Ben was Shaq, but it could be argued he did Deke dirtier.

It's really hard to say who is better. They are different. Ben Wallace was tiny, too. Deke could at least score in the post. But individually, I'd take Ben Wallace to stick on anyone except prime Shaq.

-Smak

So tell me, what great centers has Ben stopped? Shaq was the only one in his era, and he would make him his b!tch every time they met.

[Chapallaz]

so, you never saw dike play...
mutombo not a good man defender?
i once watched a game when he was playing the heat, with brian grant and anthony mason, both all-stars that year. they were so intimidated they refused to shoot.
dike got most blocks from the weakside??? bullshit. he could block his man playing straight up one on one d. that's why he's a much better man and post defender than ben.
Grant...All Star?

[DuMa]

Mutumbo ftw. i cried when his career ended on that knee injury in Houston in 2009. Even when he was years out of his prime, he held down that defense for HOU when Yao was out. He always knew defense. no slouch to Big Ben because he became a great player himself but Mutumbo was a great defensive anchor EVERY YEAR he played.

[Clippersfan86]

so, you never saw dike play...
mutombo not a good man defender?
i once watched a game when he was playing the heat, with brian grant and anthony mason, both all-stars that year. they were so intimidated they refused to shoot.
dike got most blocks from the weakside??? bullshit. he could block his man playing straight up one on one d. that's why he's a much better man and post defender than ben.

I already said I watched him mid-late career but I didn't start watching the NBA until about 97 so he was already a 31 year old, 7 year vet. I think you're great exaggerating Mutumbo's defensive ability. I didn't say he was a bad man defender, just not a great one like Wallace.

[Whoah10115]

I can understand the arguments for Wallace. He was a better team defender. But Mutombo wasn't a weakside defender...ever, as far as I remember. The worst thing you could say about Mutombo is he deserved more 3second violations. The man was a rim protector, not a weakside defender. He stood in the middle and held the paint. He was not overly active and did not really disrupt pick n' roll. But he was a great post defender and better than Wallace there. I don't know where this talk of Wallace as the great and versatile man defender comes from. He was certainly a great post defender, but that wasn't his strong-suit. He was an off-ball defender. More versatile than Mutombo, sure. I think it's close. The shot-blocking probably gives Mutombo the edge for me. But I could be convinced otherwise. Tho Mutombo is certainly the better player.


Grant...All Star?



I believe he made the team.

[Teanett]

Grant...All Star?

hm... maybe i'm confusing him with antonio davis. mason was for sure. it was the year mourning was out.
the east front courts were super weak compared to the west's duncan, shaq, garnett + cwebb.

btw, the east won that game playing a line up of iverson, marbury, carter, t-mac and... MOTUMBO in crunch time. i think he had like 20+ rebounds in 25 or something, totally dominating kg, duncan and cwebb on the boards.

[Teanett]

I already said I watched him mid-late career but I didn't start watching the NBA until about 97 so he was already a 31 year old, 7 year vet. I think you're great exaggerating Mutumbo's defensive ability. I didn't say he was a bad man defender, just not a great one like Wallace.

and there is where you're completely wrong.
motumbo was a much better man defender than wallace, at least on big centers like shaq, d-rob, etc.
i dont know how this is even debatable. :confusedshrug:

[Whoah10115]

and there is where you're completely wrong.
motumbo was a much better man defender than wallace, at least on big centers like shaq, d-rob, etc.
i dont know how this is even debatable. :confusedshrug:



This is true.

[Teanett]

But Mutombo wasn't a weakside defender...ever, as far as I remember. The worst thing you could say about Mutombo is he deserved more 3second violations.


there was no defensive 3 seconds back in the day.
:D

[Rake2204]

Wallace, he was better at disrupting pick and rolls and penetration to the lane. Mutombo was a better post-defender. Disrupting pick and rolls and blocking penetration is far more important to me for a defensive big men. Ben was like a shot blocking version of KG.I have a hard time in making a definitive decision between Mutombo and Wallace in terms of being a defensive anchor but simply for the sake of discussion, I think you raise a great point that surprisingly is often left out of discussions like these. We discuss blocked shots and we sometimes discuss defensive rebounds. We don't always discuss, however, a lot of the details of defending, and I think that can be unfortunate.

In Ben's case, I feel some of his best defensive characteristics were those often considered "small" or "details". As you mentioned, he was a fantastic pick & roll defender. Whenever Wallace comes up around here I usually mention it, but that's because I find it to be important and true. He hedged the crap out of pick & rolls and recovered with great vigor and effectiveness. And I think that speaks to a larger portion of Wallace's defensive abilities, particularly in comparison to Mutombo. Wallace was very mobile. While Mutombo could move as well, he couldn't do it like Ben, which did allow Wallace to affect teams defensively in different respects than Dikembe.

I also do not believe a defensive anchor has to be a center. Whether we want to call Wallace a center or a center in a power forward's body, I'm not sure it really matters. I just think he was undoubtedly the head of the Pistons' tremendous defensive unit. I've seen folks mention Detroit as a team that employed 5 great defenders, but I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with that statement either. Speaking in pure hypotheticals, if Ben Wallace never played for the Pistons, I'm not sure Chauncey Billups or Richard Hamilton would have ever carved out any sort of reputation as defenders. It definitely felt like one of those situations where Ben got the ball rolling and everyone fed into it. A reputation developed and everyone tried to live up to it. Also, for Hamilton and Billups, their defensive impact surely gained a boost knowing Ben was back there to clean things up.

So again, I don't know who would be the better pick between these two. I think I know who I'd take, but it wouldn't be based solely off of who would be the better defensive anchor. Overall, I felt as if Ben Wallace may have brought a little more to the table than Mutombo, in terms of his athleticism, the way he ran the floor, filled lanes, offensive rebounded, hedged, hustled, etc. If we were to place Wallace up against any other great center from that era (Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning) the choice becomes a little more clear to me due to everything those guys provided offensively. However, Mutombo was a little awkward in that compartment, which is what allows this comparison to take place to begin with.


and there is where you're completely wrong.
motumbo was a much better man defender than wallace, at least on big centers like shaq, d-rob, etc.
i dont know how this is even debatable. :confusedshrug:Tough to speak for someone else, but maybe he was referring to guarding players who were facing up? I don't know. I'd agree Mutombo held the advantage in guarding opposing bigs one-on-one in the post, though I do believe Wallace's supposed shortcoming in that area has become a tiny bit overstated in recent years, likely due to his inability to guard the most dominant big man of our era (Shaquille O'Neal). Particularly in the '04 Finlas, where the Pistons opted to nearly never double team O'Neal, it was clear to see Wallace was outmatched and outsized. It was a similar scenario when facing the likes of Yao Ming. At that point, there's just not a lot that could be done, but I don't think it speaks toward Wallace's overall defensive man abilities against every player he faced.

[Whoah10115]

there was no defensive 3 seconds back in the day.
:D



I was wondering. I do wonder how a prime Dikembe would play with 3second violations.

[Whoah10115]

I have a hard time in making a definitive decision between Mutombo and Wallace in terms of being a defensive anchor but simply for the sake of discussion, I think you raise a great point that surprisingly is often left out of discussions like these. We discuss blocked shots and we sometimes discuss defensive rebounds. We don't always discuss, however, a lot of the details of defending, and I think that can be unfortunate.

In Ben's case, I feel some of his best defensive characteristics were those often considered "small" or "details". As you mentioned, he was a fantastic pick & roll defender. Whenever Wallace comes up around here I usually mention it, but that's because I find it to be important and true. He hedged the crap out of pick & rolls and recovered with great vigor and effectiveness. And I think that speaks to a larger portion of Wallace's defensive abilities, particularly in comparison to Mutombo. Wallace was very mobile. While Mutombo could move as well, he couldn't do it like Ben, which did allow Wallace to affect teams defensively in different respects than Dikembe.

I also do not believe a defensive anchor has to be a center. Whether we want to call Wallace a center or a center in a power forward's body, I'm not sure it really matters. I just think he was undoubtedly the head of the Pistons' tremendous defensive unit. I've seen folks mention Detroit as a team that employed 5 great defenders, but I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with that statement either. Speaking in pure hypotheticals, if Ben Wallace never played for the Pistons, I'm not sure Chauncey Billups or Richard Hamilton would have ever carved out any sort of reputation as defenders. It definitely felt like one of those situations where Ben got the ball rolling and everyone fed into it. A reputation developed and everyone tried to live up to it. Also, for Hamilton and Billups, their defensive impact surely gained a boost knowing Ben was back there to clean things up.

So again, I don't know who would be the better pick between these two. I think I know who I'd take, but it wouldn't be based solely off of who would be the better defensive anchor. Overall, I felt as if Ben Wallace may have brought a little more to the table than Mutombo, in terms of his athleticism, the way he ran the floor, filled lanes, offensive rebounded, hedged, hustled, etc. If we were to place Wallace up against any other great center from that era (Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning) the choice becomes a little more clear to me due to everything those guys provided offensively. However, Mutombo was a little awkward in that compartment, which is what allows this comparison to take place to begin with.

Tough to speak for someone else, but maybe he was referring to guarding players who were facing up? I don't know. I'd agree Mutombo held the advantage in guarding opposing bigs one-on-one in the post, though I do believe Wallace's supposed shortcoming in that area has become a tiny bit overstated in recent years, likely due to his inability to guard the most dominant big man of our era (Shaquille O'Neal). Particularly in the '04 Finlas, where the Pistons opted to nearly never double team O'Neal, it was clear to see Wallace outmatched and outsized. It was a similar scenario when facing the likes of Yao Ming. At that point, there's just not a lot that could be done, but I don't think it speaks toward Wallace's overall defensive man abilities against every player he faced.



Both yours and the quoted are great posts. I like the comparison with KG, but with more shot-blocking (tho KG was a very good shot-blocker at PF).


Wallace learned a lot from Oakley...one of the best defensive players ever. Wallace gets the love, because he's a center (and comes with shot-blocking) but Oakley was about a comparable rebounder before injuries, the NY system, and an odd limiting of minutes. Oakley didn't block shots like Wallace, but he hustled more than anybody (as much a Rodman), is the greatest of garbage men, and did all that stuff you mention. Oakley is also as good a help defender as I've seen.


But Wallace also has the weakside play like KG. The disrupting of the pick n' roll can't be overstated.

[Rake2204]

I was wondering. I do wonder how a prime Dikembe would play with 3second violations.There was no defensive three seconds, but "illegal defense" existed as a substitute. Kind of a shot in the dark because I can't find a reference right at the moment, but I feel like illegal defense was something where a defender had to stay on the same half of the court as his man unless he fully committed to go double team.

One way or another, there may have not been defensive three seconds, but there were still rules in place to help curb zone play and/or camping.

[Clippersfan86]

and there is where you're completely wrong.
motumbo was a much better man defender than wallace, at least on big centers like shaq, d-rob, etc.
i dont know how this is even debatable. :confusedshrug:

Not even close dude. Wallace could defend SG's and SF's and was a much more capable perimeter defender. He also had multiple 2 steals per game seasons and many of them were man defense, just pull up the footage anywhere and see for yourself. You're definitely overhyping Mutombo.

[LJJ]

Tough to speak for someone else, but maybe he was referring to guarding players who were facing up? I don't know. I'd agree Mutombo held the advantage in guarding opposing bigs one-on-one in the post, though I do believe Wallace's supposed shortcoming in that area has become a tiny bit overstated in recent years, likely due to his inability to guard the most dominant big man of our era (Shaquille O'Neal). Particularly in the '04 Finlas, where the Pistons opted to nearly never double team O'Neal, it was clear to see Wallace was outmatched and outsized. It was a similar scenario when facing the likes of Yao Ming. At that point, there's just not a lot that could be done, but I don't think it speaks toward Wallace's overall defensive man abilities against every player he faced.

I can't say I agree with your take on the 2004. Shaq abused Wallace during the first game, but the rest of the series he got jobbed by Wallace. Shaq performed way, way below his usual level that series.

[Chapallaz]

Not even close dude. Wallace could defend SG's and SF's and was a much more capable perimeter defender. He also had multiple 2 steals per game seasons and many of them were man defense, just pull up the footage anywhere and see for yourself. You're definitely overhyping Mutombo.
Go sit down boy. You just admitted you don't know what you're talking about.

[Teanett]

Not even close dude. Wallace could defend SG's and SF's and was a much more capable perimeter defender. He also had multiple 2 steals per game seasons and many of them were man defense, just pull up the footage anywhere and see for yourself. You're definitely overhyping Mutombo.

i dont need to see it, because unlike you, i saw both play their entire careers.
sure, wallace is better suited at defending smaller players as well as the often stated pick n roll defense.
but if i need somebody to play a big center, to take everything away at the basket and be the last line of defense, mutombo is the obvious choice.

[Rake2204]

I can't say I agree with your take on the 2004. Shaq abused Wallace during the first game, but the rest of the series he got jobbed by Wallace. Shaq performed way, way below his usual level that series.Maybe I'll have to go back and re-watch some games. I just have this memory of O'Neal scoring at will. Each games seemed to begin with Lakers gameplan of feeding O'Neal in the post and letting him go to work. He'd score at will and seemingly through the flow of the game, his touches would just stop coming. I remember wondering if there was some kind of Larry Brown genius involved, where maybe he somehow knew he could get away with single Shaq coverage because O'Neal would either tire or his teammates would just stop going to him. Again though, maybe I'll just have to give it another look.

Edit: I gave a quick glance at the box scores from that year's finals and I think O'Neal shot 50%+ in each contest, including 13-16 in the aforementioned game 1 and 16-21 in game 4. In the other contests, the only thing lacking seemed to be his field goal attempts. I'd love to think that was Wallace playing some sort of great deny defense but again, I have a better memory of O'Neal dominating, but somehow giving way to Bryant and company as the game progressed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406130DET.html

[Teanett]

I can't say I agree with your take on the 2004. Shaq abused Wallace during the first game, but the rest of the series he got jobbed by Wallace. Shaq performed way, way below his usual level that series.

not true. shaq shot like 64% the entire series. ben wallace was barbecue chicken to him.
the only reason the lakers lost is kobe's sub par performance.

game 1, 34 pts, 13-16 fg
game 2, 29 pts, 10-20 fg
game 3, 14 pts, 7-14 fg
game 4, 36 pts, 16-21 fg
game 5, 20 pts, 7-13 fg

barbecue chicken!

[StateOfMind12]

In Ben's case, I feel some of his best defensive characteristics were those often considered "small" or "details". As you mentioned, he was a fantastic pick & roll defender. Whenever Wallace comes up around here I usually mention it, but that's because I find it to be important and true. He hedged the crap out of pick & rolls and recovered with great vigor and effectiveness. And I think that speaks to a larger portion of Wallace's defensive abilities, particularly in comparison to Mutombo. Wallace was very mobile. While Mutombo could move as well, he couldn't do it like Ben, which did allow Wallace to affect teams defensively in different respects than Dikembe
I think one could argue that it would depend in the era. Back in the 90s, there were plenty of dominant/scoring Centers like Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc. so having a great post defender was more valuable back then.

However, in today's game and for the past 6-7 years since Shaq's prime ended, the dominant/scoring Centers are relatively weak now. It is more important to be able to disrupt pick and rolls and stop penetration of perimeter players than it is to contain dominant big men 1 on 1.

I do think "the shot blocker" gets incredibly overrated though. For whatever reason, people believe that the shot blocker is automatically the anchor and the reason as to why a team is great defensively and that is false. Tyson Chandler completely turned around the Knicks defensively last year and he is not a very good shot blocker but he is great at defending the pick and roll and defending the post.

It is why I think Duncan's defense was overrated and was worse than KG's, but that's a different story.

[LJJ]

Maybe I'll have to go back and re-watch some games. I just have this memory of O'Neal scoring at will. Each games seemed to begin with Lakers gameplan of feeding O'Neal in the post and letting him go to work. He'd score at will and seemingly through the flow of the game, his touches would just stop coming. I remember wondering if there was some kind of Larry Brown genius involved, where maybe he somehow knew he could get away with single Shaq coverage because O'Neal would either tire or his teammates would just stop going to him. Again though, maybe I'll just have to give it another look.

Edit: I gave a quick glance at the box scores from that year's finals and I think O'Neal shot 50%+ in each contest, including 13-16 in the aforementioned game 1 and 16-21 in game 4. In the other contests, the only thing lacking seemed to be his field goal attempts. I'd love to think that was Wallace playing some sort of great deny defense but again, I have a better memory of O'Neal dominating, but somehow giving way to Bryant and company as the game progressed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406130DET.html

Forgot about that 4th game, I guess there were two games where Shaq abused Wallace.

Still though, Shaq was just coming of series where he solely dominated the Wolves and the Spurs on the glass. And in the finals against Wallace he suddenly can't even get 10 boards most games.

[Teanett]

Forgot about that 4th game, I guess there were two games where Shaq abused Wallace.

Still though, Shaq was just coming of series where he solely dominated the Wolves and the Spurs on the glass. And in the finals against Wallace he suddenly can't even get 10 boards most games.

what?
shaq averaged 10.8 rebounds in 5 possession games that series.

the notion that wallace would bother him in the slightest is a myth.
if it wasnt for kobe's and payton's bricklaying there wouldnt be a ring for detroit. i would even go so far as saying, the reputation of that team would be like the jason kidd-led nets because they couldnt beat the spurs the next year either.

[Clippersfan86]

what?
shaq averaged 10.8 rebounds in 5 possession games that series.

the notion that wallace would bother him in the slightest is a myth.
if it wasnt for kobe's and payton's bricklaying there wouldnt be a ring for detroit. i would even go so far as saying, the reputation of that team would be like the jason kidd-led nets because they couldnt beat the spurs the next year either.

Dude the Pistons won in 5, it wasn't close. Stop discrediting that team and Wallace. Shaq had his way with any and everybody in his prime but the numbers don't tell much in this case. Wallace did a very respectable job on prime Shaq who was a good 7 inches taller and 80+ pounds heavier.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if I recall Wallace held him to 3 rpg and a shooting percentage of 10 percent less than what Shaq was averaging in the playoffs prior to the finals.

[Teanett]

Dude the Pistons won in 5, it wasn't close. Stop discrediting that team and Wallace. Shaq had his way with any and everybody in his prime but the numbers don't tell much in this case. Wallace did a very respectable job on prime Shaq who was a good 7 inches taller and 80+ pounds heavier.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if I recall Wallace held him to 3 rpg and a shooting percentage of 10 percent less than what Shaq was averaging in the playoffs prior to the finals.

dude, shaq shot 63% and averaged 10+ rebounds. he shot 59% and 13 rbg for the whole playoffs.
big ben was chicken salad with croutons, with mustard and honey sauce!

finals vs pistons: 27/11
playoffs: 21/13

chicken wings with ketchup!

[Clippersfan86]

dude, shaq shot 63% and averaged 10+ rebounds. he shot 59% and 13 rbg for the whole playoffs.
big ben was chicken salad with croutons, with mustard and honey sauce!

finals vs pistons: 27/11
playoffs: 21/13

chicken wings with ketchup!

I just remembered what I was getting confused. Go on basketball reference and look up Ben Wallace career H2H vs Shaq. His rebounding is about 9 rpg vs Wallace and his shooting percentages are down. That's a much greater sample size than the 5 game finals series. Even then Shaq vs Wallace isn't the topic here. Shaq in his prime was hands down the most unstoppable physical force in NBA history. To expect generously listed 6'7 250 pound Wallace to stop the 7'1 350 pound monster is a joke and a bad way to evaluate.

I remember when I was in HS I was 5'10 and 170 ish. My buddy was a varsity player for both basketball and football (linebacker) and was 6'5 240+ pounds of muscle. It was hell for me guarding him because I literally could do nothing physically when he posted me up. Point is the size disadvantage between these two is astounding so for Wallace to do a respectable job on him H2H over a career deserves mad props.

I didn't mean to imply this wasn't a good comparison because it is. I just give Wallace the edge over Mutumbo due to defensive versatility. Could guard more positions, played the passing lanes etc. Wallace was a more complete defender but Dikembe dominated the rim defense slightly more. When you factor in that Mutumbo was a 7'2 270 pounder though and Wallace was 6'7 240 generously Wallace becomes even more impressive. Dikembe had a great build for a defensive anchor, Wallace didn't.

[Rake2204]

Dude the Pistons won in 5, it wasn't close. Stop discrediting that team and Wallace. Shaq had his way with any and everybody in his prime but the numbers don't tell much in this case. Wallace did a very respectable job on prime Shaq who was a good 7 inches taller and 80+ pounds heavier.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if I recall Wallace held him to 3 rpg and a shooting percentage of 10 percent less than what Shaq was averaging in the playoffs prior to the finals.I have to say, I definitely am of the belief that the Pistons won that series more than the Lakers lost it (if that makes sense), but I don't think there's any getting around the idea that Shaq more or less dominated Ben Wallace when he received the ball in the post during that series. The numbers do sort of tell a story here.

Further, being a Pistons fan who recorded a lot of games back in the day, then re-watched them over and over (including the entire 2004 Finals), I don't recall getting any sort of feeling that Wallace was able to do anything to prevent O'Neal from establishing five feet from the rim and doing as he pleased. That doesn't mean Wallace wasn't spectacular elsewhere, because I think he was, but Ben wasn't much more than a fly in comparison to Shaq's power.

On the flip side, I watched the '01 Finals (Mutombo vs. Shaq) but I must admit I haven't re-watched them, so I cannot recall how effective Mutombo was in the same position. My lasting memory is Deke taking power elbows to the chest and grill on Shaq's dropsteps leading up to a monster dunk. I don't really think there was much of anybody who was going to be stopping O'Neal during his prime, so I'm not sure if he's a good reference point for comparison between Mutombo and Wallace.

[Clippersfan86]

I have to say, I definitely am of the belief that the Pistons won that series more than the Lakers lost it (if that makes sense), but I don't think there's any getting around the idea that Shaq more or less dominated Ben Wallace when he received the ball in the post during that series. The numbers do sort of tell a story here.

Further, being a Pistons fan who recorded a lot of games back in the day, then re-watched them over and over (including the entire 2004 Finals), I don't recall getting any sort of feeling that Wallace was able to do anything to prevent O'Neal from establishing five feet from the rim and doing as he pleased. That doesn't mean Wallace wasn't spectacular elsewhere, because I think he was, but Ben wasn't much more than a fly in comparison to Shaq's power.

On the flip side, I watched the '01 Finals (Mutombo vs. Shaq) but I must admit I haven't re-watched them, so I cannot recall how effective Mutombo was in the same position. My lasting memory is Deke taking power elbows to the chest and grill on Shaq's dropsteps leading up to a monster dunk. I don't really think there was much of anybody who was going to be stopping O'Neal during his prime, so I'm not sure if he's a good reference point for comparison between Mutombo and Wallace.

I watched all 5 games of the 01 finals and Mutombo also got obliterated by Shaq. In Mutumbo's defense he was in his mid-late 30's by then but even during his career Shaq shit on him regularly. The only center Shaq DIDN'T regularly take a dump on is Hakeem that I saw.

[Lil-Wild]

Larry Brown : D

[Whoah10115]

Not even close dude. Wallace could defend SG's and SF's and was a much more capable perimeter defender. He also had multiple 2 steals per game seasons and many of them were man defense, just pull up the footage anywhere and see for yourself. You're definitely overhyping Mutombo.


You're wrong here. First of all, Wallace never averaged 2SPG. Second, while I agree Wallace could get out and guard on-ball, he wasn't David Robinson. He's not guarding SF's like that. When he says man defender, he means (or at least should mean) post defender. Dikembe was definitely a better post defender.

[Whoah10115]

Maybe I'll have to go back and re-watch some games. I just have this memory of O'Neal scoring at will. Each games seemed to begin with Lakers gameplan of feeding O'Neal in the post and letting him go to work. He'd score at will and seemingly through the flow of the game, his touches would just stop coming. I remember wondering if there was some kind of Larry Brown genius involved, where maybe he somehow knew he could get away with single Shaq coverage because O'Neal would either tire or his teammates would just stop going to him. Again though, maybe I'll just have to give it another look.

Edit: I gave a quick glance at the box scores from that year's finals and I think O'Neal shot 50%+ in each contest, including 13-16 in the aforementioned game 1 and 16-21 in game 4. In the other contests, the only thing lacking seemed to be his field goal attempts. I'd love to think that was Wallace playing some sort of great deny defense but again, I have a better memory of O'Neal dominating, but somehow giving way to Bryant and company as the game progressed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406130DET.html



Yes and no. Shaq did score at will. Wallace did not job him. That's ridiculous. But maybe less criticism should be leveled at Bryant and more praise heaped on the Detroit defense, as they denied Shaq the ball a lot.

[eliteballer]

Ben Wallace because of superior mobility.

[Clippersfan86]

You're wrong here. First of all, Wallace never averaged 2SPG. Second, while I agree Wallace could get out and guard on-ball, he wasn't David Robinson. He's not guarding SF's like that. When he says man defender, he means (or at least should mean) post defender. Dikembe was definitely a better post defender.

Shoot me for not looking it up but his career average of steals was nearly 1.5 which is pretty amazing for your center. Couple seasons he got close to 2. You guys like circular lawyer arguments around here where rather than adressing the point you try to pick apart what somebody said. The bottom line is Wallace was more versatile and complete defensively.

[Whoah10115]

Shoot me for not looking it up but his career average of steals was nearly 1.5 which is pretty amazing for your center. Couple seasons he got close to 2. You guys like circular lawyer arguments around here where rather than adressing the point you try to pick apart what somebody said. The bottom line is Wallace was more versatile and complete defensively.



You said multiple seasons over 2. Two seasons at 1.8 and one at 1.7 is far off.


I'm not circumventing a real discussion. I agree he's more versatile and I think there's an argument for him over Mutombo. But as a man defender, he isn't better than Mutombo, as most of the man defense these guys played was in the post. There, Mutombo was better.

[L.Kizzle]

I'd rather have my defensive anchor center be 7'2 rather than 6'7.

Wallace being similar in build to a SF is the reason he could get out there and those pick and rolls, ect.

[Smoke117]

I'm afraid Ben would have been eaten alive by the centers Deke played against.

You mean like Mutombo was eaten alive against Robinson and Olajuwon? When someone posted that video where Robinson destroyed the Nuggets, Mutombo wasn't even defending him. He was just too damn ****ing slow. That's always was seperated guys like Robinson, Olajuwon, Wallace, even someone like Howard...foot speed. Mutombo was always slow as molasses. He had high defensive IQ and a long body, but he wasn't gifted with the athleticism of the real greats. Ben Wallace shits all over him.

[L.Kizzle]

You mean like Mutombo was eaten alive against Robinson and Olajuwon? When someone posted that video where Robinson destroyed the Nuggets, Mutombo wasn't even defending him. He was just too damn ****ing slow. That's always was seperated guys like Robinson, Olajuwon, Wallace, even someone like Howard...foot speed. Mutombo was always slow as molasses. He had high defensive IQ and a long body, but he wasn't gifted with the athleticism of the real greats. Ben Wallace shits all over him.
D-Rob, Dream and Shaq, that's it. And most centers from any era would get whipped by them.

post-91 Ewing with bad knees (still All NBA teamer), Brad D, Zo Mouring, Duckworth, Smits, Divac, Elden Campbell, Rony Seikly. Deke could hang with them and he did. Wallace never faced 2nd and 3rd tier centers that talented in the 2000s.

[Rake2204]

D-Rob, Dream and Shaq, that's it. And most centers from any era would get whipped by them.

post-91 Ewing with bad knees (still All NBA teamer), Brad D, Zo Mouring, Duckworth, Smits, Divac, Elden Campbell, Rony Seikly. Deke could hang with them and he did. Wallace never faced 2nd and 3rd tier centers that talented in the 2000s.If we wanted to do the hypothetical thing and throw Ben Wallace back into the mid-90's, I think there's a good chance he'd better fit at a power forward position and in my opinion, I still think he'd be able to anchor a team defensively. I say this because I'm not sure Wallace's defensive effect was ever centralized in his one-on-one stopping ability of an opposing team's center. As has been detailed throughout this thread, many of Wallace's best qualities came off the ball - blocking shots, hedging, rebounding, cut off driving lanes, running the floor, rotating with great speed, etc.

If Wallace started alongside, say, Mark West or Duane Causwell (examples of big bodies who'd at least not have such a height disadvantage at the center position) I still think Ben would have a giant impact on games in the 90's defensively. Further, more frequently defending players of his own size may have allowed him to further excel defensively, particularly man-to-man.

[Reggie43]

Mutombo was definitely better for me. In my opinion Ben was slightly overrated by the fact that he played with very good defenders over the course of his career thus magnifying his defensive impact, something Deke didnt have always the luxury of having till he came to philly. How effective would Ben be if he was paired with a non defensive pf and he had to match up with frontlines like Shaq/Elden, Duncan/Robinson, Ewing/Oakley etc. Deke faced such lineups among others over the course of a season and was able to win a defensive player of the year award for his efforts, something I have a hard time believing Ben would be able to replicate given the same scenario.

[Whoah10115]

You mean like Mutombo was eaten alive against Robinson and Olajuwon? When someone posted that video where Robinson destroyed the Nuggets, Mutombo wasn't even defending him. He was just too damn ****ing slow. That's always was seperated guys like Robinson, Olajuwon, Wallace, even someone like Howard...foot speed. Mutombo was always slow as molasses. He had high defensive IQ and a long body, but he wasn't gifted with the athleticism of the real greats. Ben Wallace shits all over him.



Wallace does not shit all over Mutombo. You can take Wallace and maybe you're right, but it's at least close. Mutombo's high IQ is a good mention and his IQ was greater than that of Wallace.


And I don't know what you mean by "someone like Howard"...he has as much as foot speed as any of those guys and he's clearly a better defender than Wallace.

[KOBE143]

:facepalm at some geezer here that cant accept the fact that Big Ben was the better defensive anchor than Mutombo by far.. Mutombo played in an era where you can camp in the paint all you want.. Thats the reason why Dikembe has more block than Wallace.. Big Ben defensive versatility was better by far, pick n roll D was better by far, Rim protector close but if Dikembe played in Ben Wallace time, Big Ben will come up as the better rim protector by far.. Dikembe played in an era that favor big man defensively while Ben Wallace played in an era where center movements are limited defensively cos of the rules change.. Imagine prime Big Ben in the 90s, 5 DPOY award at minimum..

[Rake2204]

Mutombo was definitely better for me. In my opinion Ben was slightly overrated by the fact that he played with very good defenders over the course of his career thus magnifying his defensive impact, something Deke didnt have always the luxury of having till he came to philly. I've never been a big fan of that declaration. Ben Wallace was a defensive monster well before Rasheed Wallace came to town. Ben was averaging 8 boards and 2 blocks a night in 25 minutes in the two seasons prior to coming to the Pistons. Then once he arrived in Detroit, his numbers and game impact grew in a hurry, and to near monstrous levels. His defensive impact wasn't overrated. He was the defensive impact.

Further, I often hear people cite Detroit's pickup of Cliff Robinson as being Wallace's defensive help, thus propping up Ben's impact. I liked what Robinson was able to offer when he came to Detroit and he contributed more than I thought he would, but he was not prime Cliff Robinson. He was 35 and 36 year old Cliff Robinson. Again, he contributed well, but it's not as if Wallace was living off the reward of playing alongside prime Tim Duncan. It was 36 year old Cliff Robinson. Then, after Robinson left, it was 35 year old Elden Campbell and 31 year old Zeljko Rebraca taking his place until Rasheed finally arrived mid-2004.

In fact, I think things were the other way around. I think Wallace's defensive excellence has propped up the defensive abilities of many of his teammates over the years, Chauncey Billups and Richard Hamilton in particular. To be sure, I don't think they were terrible defensively, but they extracted the maximum amount of attention regarding their D because they had an all-timer behind them setting that tone years before they even arrived.

[Reggie43]

I've never been a big fan of that declaration. Ben Wallace was a defensive monster well before Rasheed Wallace came to town. Ben was averaging 8 boards and 2 blocks a night in 25 minutes in the two seasons prior to coming to the Pistons. Then once he arrived in Detroit, his numbers and game impact grew in a hurry, and to near monstrous levels. His defensive impact wasn't overrated. He was the defensive impact.

Further, I often hear people cite Detroit's pickup of Cliff Robinson as being Wallace's defensive help, thus propping up Ben's impact. I liked what Robinson was able to offer when he came to Detroit and he contributed more than I thought he would, but he was not prime Cliff Robinson. He was 35 and 36 year old Cliff Robinson. Again, he contributed well, but it's not as if Wallace was living off the reward of playing alongside prime Tim Duncan. It was 36 year old Cliff Robinson. Then, after Robinson left, it was 35 year old Elden Campbell and 31 year old Zeljko Rebraca taking his place until Rasheed finally arrived mid-2004.

In fact, I think things were the other way around. I think Wallace's defensive excellence has propped up the defensive abilities of many of his teammates over the years, Chauncey Billups and Richard Hamilton in particular. To be sure, I don't think they were terrible defensively, but they extracted the maximum amount of attention regarding their D because they had an all-timer behind them setting that tone years before they even arrived.

I do believe that Ben Wallace was a great defender and you made great points on how he made teammates better defenders though Ben was also a benificiary of their hardwork on defense.

You are correct when you said that Ben was already a good defender prior to coming to detroit but for me his sudden jump in numbers and impact is partly because of the players he played with and the system the coach employed that catered to his strengths.

What really turned me off about Ben's game was his performance at the Fiba world championships in 2002. He was the defensive anchor of the team but they were routinely outplayed by opposing bigs and failed to control the paint which was one of the main factors for their 6th place finish.

[Rake2204]

I do believe that Ben Wallace was a great defender and you made great points on how he made teammates better defenders though Ben was also a benificiary of their hardwork on defense.

You are correct when you said that Ben was already a good defender prior to coming to detroit but for me his sudden jump in numbers and impact is partly because of the players he played with and the system the coach employed that catered to his strengths.

What really turned me off about Ben's game was his performance at the Fiba world championships in 2002. He was the defensive anchor of the team but they were routinely outplayed by opposing bigs and failed to control the paint which was one of the main factors for their 6th place finish.Oh I could probably meet you half way on the system thing. Previously it seemed as if you were saying Wallace's success was propped up by how good his teammates were defensively when I felt it was the other way around. His big jump in numbers came via bigger minutes and being surrounded by the likes of Joe Smith, Dana Barros, Chucky Atkins, and Jon Barry. Those numbers then stuck around by the time Detroit began acquiring Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince. So I never really felt he was succeeding simply because his teams were all lockdown defenders.

Regarding the 2002 FIBA championship, that situation never really affected how I looked at Ben Wallace. Things got weird in USA international play for those few years. The 2004 squad featuring Tim Duncan as the anchor would be similarly dismantled (while the 2006 team would struggle a little as well).

Back to '02 though, I'm not sure we can say Wallace really anchored that team. Like most USA squads, playing time was spread about like it was an All-Star game. Wallace started only 4 of 9 games and still led the team in blocks, rebounds by more than two a game, and was second in steals behind Baron Davis. Wallace shared time throughout the tourney with Raef LaFrentz, Antonio Davis, Elton Brand and Jermaine O'Neal (the latter two of whom were the most common starters). To pin a USA team's lack of success upon a guy who started four games and split time with four other bigs would be a little shortsighted in my opinion.

I also feel the system argument is used against Wallace due to his drop in production once he arrived in Chicago. I used to accept this line of reasoning without question until I decided to take a closer look. As I mentioned earlier, I think it could be argued that Wallace's prime began in 1999. This year isn't often recognized because his rebounding numbers are not gaudy. However, I feel one must take notice at the minutes he was receiving in '99 and '00 before considering his effectiveness. His per 36 minutes numbers in those two seasons are similar to that of his prime years (so are '98's, but I understand his 16 minutes per game are much further below 36 than the 26 he was receiving in '99 and '00, thus maybe leaving the door open for the argument that his numbers may have been short-term energy/spurt related).

With the idea in mind that he'd been a defensive monster as early as '99 instead of the usually accepted '02, I think we're looking at a 7 to 8 year defensive prime as opposed to the 4 or 5 many try to pass off via flat game averages (i.e. not taking into account the fact he wasn't receiving full 30+ minutes in Orlando and Washington). I do think his 30+ averages tell a story though, and that story is his monster numbers began to dip ever so slightly each year after 2004. Some people say Chicago's system wasn't built for Ben, I may believe he did what his career arc suggested he would. His first year in Chicago, as a 32 year old, Ben still averaged 10.7 rpg and 2 bpg. Those numbers were slight dips from his season prior in Detroit, but they were consistent with his year-by-year reductions.

As a 6'8'' center, I don't think there's any doubt Ben Wallace relied upon his athleticism for a lot of his statistical harvesting. As such, as that athleticism waned, so did the numbers. As he hit Cleveland, he broke his leg and that really began to set off the "Wallace was never the same since Detroit" stories when in truth, I think he would have seen a similar decline had he stuck around.

All that said, I do think it's worth noting he was able to buck the trend a little bit in '10, when he returned to Detroit (under new coaching, new system, new everything). He averaged around 9 boards and over a block per night at age 35. That was cool to see but again, he clearly was no longer the springy, athletic Wallace from 8 years earlier. And even in his final year ('12), he performed admirably when called upon, using his smarts and insane strength to provide effective small things on the defensive side of the ball (ex: bodying Andrew Bynum to prevent him from catching the ball 3 feet from the tin, something Greg Monroe could not pull off). On the flip side, even at age 40, Dikembe Mutombo was still able to at least block shots because he was always going to be a long 7'2'' center who could stand in front of the basket, even if he was no longer capable of much else on the floor.

[WillyJakk]

Not gonna diss Big Ben just cause some ignorant posters on here feel a need to minimize Deke and his accomplishments to make Ben seem better cause dude was a beast and loved him here in Orlando before the trade for Hill.

Sidenote: True story, Detroit asked for Ben Wallace OR Bo Outlaw in that trade and since Ben was too hood lookin' w/ that 'fro compared to Bo's shaven head, personality, and time here we traded Ben....big mistake, I knew it then.

Anyway to answer the op:

Gimme the guy who had PRIME SHAWN KEMP scared to attack the basket, something NO ONE had ever been able to do.

Here's a hint: :no:

[Euroleague]

This is a joke. Mutombo by far.

[Big#50]

Not gonna diss Big Ben just cause some ignorant posters on here feel a need to minimize Deke and his accomplishments to make Ben seem better cause dude was a beast and loved him here in Orlando before the trade for Hill.

Sidenote: True story, Detroit asked for Ben Wallace OR Bo Outlaw in that trade and since Ben was too hood lookin' w/ that 'fro compared to Bo's shaven head, personality, and time here we traded Ben....big mistake, I knew it then.

Anyway to answer the op:

Gimme the guy who had PRIME SHAWN KEMP scared to attack the basket, something NO ONE had ever been able to do.

Here's a hint: :no:
Never really liked Dikembe. Slow as ****. Dirty as ****. Overrated defender. Great shot blocker. He lived in the paint. But couldn't do much else. His man to man defense was barely above average. Wallace for me.

[Teanett]

the notion that dike was slow and immobile really irritates me. sure, ben wallace was faster and more agile but dike was fukkin quick for a legit 7'1'' center.
sean kemp couldnt drive by dike and he was a damn quick 6'10'' athletic freak.

[Whoah10115]

the notion that dike was slow and immobile really irritates me. sure, ben wallace was faster and more agile but dike was fukkin quick for a legit 7'1'' center.
sean kemp couldnt drive by dike and he was a damn quick 6'10'' athletic freak.



Mutombo was 7'2 but I can't see any scenario where he wasn't slow. Intelligence and quality. But no speed or much lateral movement.

[Reggie43]

Oh I could probably meet you half way on the system thing. Previously it seemed as if you were saying Wallace's success was propped up by how good his teammates were defensively when I felt it was the other way around. His big jump in numbers came via bigger minutes and being surrounded by the likes of Joe Smith, Dana Barros, Chucky Atkins, and Jon Barry. Those numbers then stuck around by the time Detroit began acquiring Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince. So I never really felt he was succeeding simply because his teams were all lockdown defenders.

Regarding the 2002 FIBA championship, that situation never really affected how I looked at Ben Wallace. Things got weird in USA international play for those few years. The 2004 squad featuring Tim Duncan as the anchor would be similarly dismantled (while the 2006 team would struggle a little as well).

Back to '02 though, I'm not sure we can say Wallace really anchored that team. Like most USA squads, playing time was spread about like it was an All-Star game. Wallace started only 4 of 9 games and still led the team in blocks, rebounds by more than two a game, and was second in steals behind Baron Davis. Wallace shared time throughout the tourney with Raef LaFrentz, Antonio Davis, Elton Brand and Jermaine O'Neal (the latter two of whom were the most common starters). To pin a USA team's lack of success upon a guy who started four games and split time with four other bigs would be a little shortsighted in my opinion.

I also feel the system argument is used against Wallace due to his drop in production once he arrived in Chicago. I used to accept this line of reasoning without question until I decided to take a closer look. As I mentioned earlier, I think it could be argued that Wallace's prime began in 1999. This year isn't often recognized because his rebounding numbers are not gaudy. However, I feel one must take notice at the minutes he was receiving in '99 and '00 before considering his effectiveness. His per 36 minutes numbers in those two seasons are similar to that of his prime years (so are '98's, but I understand his 16 minutes per game are much further below 36 than the 26 he was receiving in '99 and '00, thus maybe leaving the door open for the argument that his numbers may have been short-term energy/spurt related).

With the idea in mind that he'd been a defensive monster as early as '99 instead of the usually accepted '02, I think we're looking at a 7 to 8 year defensive prime as opposed to the 4 or 5 many try to pass off via flat game averages (i.e. not taking into account the fact he wasn't receiving full 30+ minutes in Orlando and Washington). I do think his 30+ averages tell a story though, and that story is his monster numbers began to dip ever so slightly each year after 2004. Some people say Chicago's system wasn't built for Ben, I may believe he did what his career arc suggested he would. His first year in Chicago, as a 32 year old, Ben still averaged 10.7 rpg and 2 bpg. Those numbers were slight dips from his season prior in Detroit, but they were consistent with his year-by-year reductions.

As a 6'8'' center, I don't think there's any doubt Ben Wallace relied upon his athleticism for a lot of his statistical harvesting. As such, as that athleticism waned, so did the numbers. As he hit Cleveland, he broke his leg and that really began to set off the "Wallace was never the same since Detroit" stories when in truth, I think he would have seen a similar decline had he stuck around.

All that said, I do think it's worth noting he was able to buck the trend a little bit in '10, when he returned to Detroit (under new coaching, new system, new everything). He averaged around 9 boards and over a block per night at age 35. That was cool to see but again, he clearly was no longer the springy, athletic Wallace from 8 years earlier. And even in his final year ('12), he performed admirably when called upon, using his smarts and insane strength to provide effective small things on the defensive side of the ball (ex: bodying Andrew Bynum to prevent him from catching the ball 3 feet from the tin, something Greg Monroe could not pull off). On the flip side, even at age 40, Dikembe Mutombo was still able to at least block shots because he was always going to be a long 7'2'' center who could stand in front of the basket, even if he was no longer capable of much else on the floor.

I guess we could both agree that Ben Wallace both helped and benefited from the system that was employed by Carlisle and Brown. I think they both recognized how good Ben was to entrust their whole defensive gameplan on his abilities.

International play for me really shows which players can adapt quickly and adjust to certain situations. I really lost a lot of respect for Duncan's game because of his inability to adjust. Regarding Ben, he received the most minutes of any pf/c in the 2002 fiba wc usa team so I think he was their anchor and deserved a bigger part of the blame for their inability to control the paint even though he received only 20+ mins per game.

I somewhat agree with you about Ben's gradual decrease of production but you can also attribute it to the fact that his stats decreased due to the improvements of his teammates. The year he had 15 rpg he was surrounded by poor rebounding bigs who were probably just tasked to box out for him to get those rebounds. Would Ben Wallace even average 10 rebounds if he was put in the situation of Patrick Ewing? Ewing's best rebounding season of 12rpg he had to contend with his own teammates like Oakley, Mason and Smith to get all those rebounds.

All in all Ben Wallace was an all time great defender who deserves to go to the hall of fame due to all his dpoy's and the championship he helped detroit win but I still feel that Dikembe was the superior defender who played with much better competition over the course of his career to get his accolades

[fpliii]

:pimp:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wallace was a lot better at guarding the pick n roll.

[Jailblazers7]

Both players bring different things to a team as a defensive anchor. Dikembe is more of a traditional rim protector while Wallace is a better positional defender because he's got better range and mobility.

I think in today's NBA Wallace might be the better option just because of the style of play. He's better equipped to defend top bigs in today's NBA that favor the mid-range/face-up style of attack.

I'd probably prefer Dikembe tho. Having a shot blocker like him is such a huge luxury on defense and allows perimeter defenders to be more aggressive playing passing lines and pressuring ball handlers.

[Clifton]

He was great in his Pistons days. Im big fan of them, but they had 5 great defenders on 5 positions in their primes. Thats why they were so great defensively.
Yeah, because they played with Ben Wallace.

None of his teammates, to my knowledge, have been known as great defenders outside of their days playing with Big Ben.

I would watch that team hold teams under 70. Night after night. It was amazing. No one could score.

I haven't seen much of the great 90s centers, or much of Mutombo, so I won't say who's better, but I saw Ben Wallace beat 4 HOFers in the Finals with a team that had no all-stars on it, with his effect on a team's defense alone. He beat Shaq back when he was still the best player in the league, that way. He's the very definition of defensive anchor, in the Bill Russell sense. Like a Magic Johnson of defense, he got the whole team going.

Mutombo may have had people scared to go into the paint - and with good reason, I've seen games where he just blocked everything - but did he ever have 4 other guys who were extensions of himself on the defensive end?

[Teanett]

Mutombo was 7'2 but I can't see any scenario where he wasn't slow. Intelligence and quality. But no speed or much lateral movement.

no man. dike was a very athletic 7'2''. he was quicker and faster than guys his size. he was no plodding mark eaton or late sabonis or marc gasol. motumbo could move.

[Teanett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-R3bBmhqU

that's no slow dude. he's everywhere and neither kemp nor schrempf can loose him.

[Kblaze8855]

Mutombo wasnt slow on the Nuggets. Or the Hawks really. He became lumbering and slow but he wasnt to begin with. Doesnt help that he was like 25 as a rookie. He was slowing down by like his 3rd or 4th season. He was no Hakeem or anything quickness wise but for a 7'2'' guy...he could move.

Not step out and guard swingmen. But he might tip the ball to himself 3-4 times and go get it. Come from 10-12 feet away for a block most couldnt go get. Run the floor a bit.

He did more than someone id call slow at his size.

[Whoah10115]

Well, I respect the above two opinions but I personally don't see it. But, despite being open to hearing otherwise, I do think Mutombo is certainly the better defender.