Jesus or Pat Tillman?

[miller-time]

http://i.imgur.com/4qRok.png

[Nanners]

saw this pic today when i had some free time at work. also found this gem on pat tillmans wikipedia page


According to speakers at his funeral, he was very well-read, having read a number of religious texts including the Bible, Qur’an and Book of Mormon as well as transcendentalist authors such as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau. However, responding to religious overtones at the funeral by Maria Shriver and John McCain, his youngest brother, Richard, asserted that "He's not with God, he's ****ing dead. He's not religious." Richard added, "Thanks for your thoughts, but he's ****ing dead."

[Real Men Wear Green]

How do you know Tillman was an atheist?

[Real Men Wear Green]

saw this pic today when i had some free time at work. also found this gem on pat tillmans wikipedia page
That was some interesting reading. Wild that a guy with his views would volunteer for our weird wars.

[Nanners]

i think this thread brings up a REALLY good point that is not talked about very much at all:


supposedly, jesus comes down from heaven to help out mankind for like 30 years. then he gets tortured to "death", but that is really just going back up to his kingdom in the clouds. also, the guy had the powers of god.... is it possible for man to torture a god? doesnt jesus have the power to prevent himself from feeling pain? why would a god even have the capability of feeling physical pain in the first place?

what did jesus sacrifice again? how did he "die for our sins" exactly?

[Just2McFly]

this thread:facepalm :facepalm

[Brujesino]

Pat Tillman was killed by his own people does that even count as a sacrifice?

[ace23]

this thread:facepalm :facepalm
This

[Brujesino]

i think this thread brings up a REALLY good point that is not talked about very much at all:


supposedly, jesus comes down from heaven to help out mankind for like 30 years. then he gets tortured to "death", but that is really just going back up to his kingdom in the clouds. also, the guy had the powers of god.... is it possible for man to torture a god? doesnt jesus have the power to prevent himself from feeling pain? why would a god even have the capability of feeling physical pain in the first place?

what did jesus sacrifice again? how did he "die for our sins" exactly?
Jesus didnt come from heaven he was born here.I'm pretty sure he was , ugh religion is just so ****ing weird.:oldlol:

[MMM]

Both were killed by their own people.

Jesus was not killed

[miller-time]

Pat Tillman was killed by his own people does that even count as a sacrifice?

I don't think how he died mattered as much as the fact he gave up everything and put himself in dangerous circumstances. He could have survived and still sacrificed something.

[CelticBaller]

I don't think how he died mattered as much as the fact he gave up everything and put himself in dangerous circumstances. He could have survived and still sacrificed something.
And? Thousands of soldiers do that every day. Army>Jesus

[miller-time]

Jesus didnt come from heaven he was born here.I'm pretty sure he was , ugh religion is just so ****ing weird.:oldlol:

Jesus existed before the incarnation.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[Patrick Chewing]

i think this thread brings up a REALLY good point that is not talked about very much at all:


supposedly, jesus comes down from heaven to help out mankind for like 30 years. then he gets tortured to "death", but that is really just going back up to his kingdom in the clouds. also, the guy had the powers of god.... is it possible for man to torture a god? doesnt jesus have the power to prevent himself from feeling pain? why would a god even have the capability of feeling physical pain in the first place?

what did jesus sacrifice again? how did he "die for our sins" exactly?


The flesh above our solves is just that, flesh. Ever see that movie Contact with Jodie Foster?

There's a scene where she meets an alien, but the alien looks like her father. They explain that it's the only way for her to understand what they are and to comfort her. This is what Jesus could have been for man back in his time. We do not know what deities look like. If Jesus was put here on Earth to change man's ways, would we take him seriously if he looked like something we've never seen before?? Probably not.

[miller-time]

And? Thousands of soldiers do that every day. Army>Jesus

But most of them don't turn down millions of dollars to do it. They often do it out of necessity to themselves (such as job security). Plenty do do it for the same reasons Tillman did, but he is just a high profile case. Ultimately the point isn't so much about promoting Tillman as much as dismissing Jesus' sacrifice as a hollow gesture.

[miller-time]

what did jesus sacrifice again? how did he "die for our sins" exactly?

He spent a couple of rough days in hell if I remember correctly. But now he is in heaven, so it kind of makes it trivial. I always thought the story would work better if Jesus was still in hell. Imagine the guilt you could rile Christians up with that? Not only did he die on the cross but he is suffering for you right now!

[Just2McFly]

He spent a couple of rough days in hell if I remember correctly. But now he is in heaven, so it kind of makes it trivial. I always thought the story would work better if Jesus was still in hell. Imagine the guilt you could rile Christians up with that? Not only did he die on the cross but he is suffering for you right now!
What an amazing plot twist that would be!



:rolleyes:

[andgar923]

http://i.imgur.com/4qRok.png

I will get tons of shit for this.

But he was an idiot.

[Brujesino]

I will get tons of shit for this.

But he was an idiot.
He was an idiot for joining the Army.The branch that leads all other branches in friendly fire.

[Brujesino]

What an amazing plot twist that would be!



:rolleyes:
HEY!!!! He whent though alot of trouble to bash christians dont you rol your eyes at him!

[miller-time]

What an amazing plot twist that would be!



:rolleyes:

It isn't a twist. It makes sense. Sacrifice implies you gave something up, if Jesus were in hell then it would mean God actually did give something up. As far as I can tell he gave up a few hours on a Friday and possibly spent a weekend in hell.

[Nanners]

Bruce Wayne

agreed. the bat man sacrificed more for mankind than jesus. no question about it.

[-p.tiddy-]

hmm...Tillman was killed on accident, friendly fire, and is perhaps in "heaven" for all we/he knows

Jesus was crucified and then spent an eternity in HELL paying for all of our sins :oldlol:



wtf kind of comparison is this?



Hey, I got a better one...Jesus or Michael Clarke Duncan??? :confusedshrug:

[miller-time]

Jesus was crucified and then spent an eternity in HELL paying for all of our sins :oldlol:

no he didn't. he is in heaven right now. and he knew he was going there all along.

tillman gave up an nfl career to join the military not knowing what would happen.

[Edwin]

This may seem kinda weird as I'm a man of faith, but one of the posters whos post I enjoy the most even though I don't agree with all the time, but that can back up an argument and seems like a legit intelligent and knowledgeable and well versed person is miller-time.

[ace23]

When did Jesus ever go to Hell?

[-p.tiddy-]

no he didn't. he is in heaven right now. and he knew he was going there all along.

tillman gave up an nfl career to join the military not knowing what would happen.
what does the NFL have to do with anything? maybe he hated football...:confusedshrug:

maybe it was the reason he went to the military in the first place

maybe Jesus liked being a carpenter more...

it's meaningless...what they did

[-p.tiddy-]

When did Jesus ever go to Hell?
after being crucified...he spent an "eternity" in hell paying for our sins

[-p.tiddy-]

This may seem kinda weird as I'm a man of faith, but one of the posters whos post I enjoy the most even though I don't agree with all the time, but that can back up an argument and seems like a legit intelligent and knowledgeable and well versed person is miller-time.
I like him as a poster as well, that being said this is probably his worst thread ever lol

[Just2McFly]

after being crucified...he spent an "eternity" in hell paying for our sins
and now congregation, if you will, turn to the book fifth book of ignorance, chapter 23,verse six you will see this^^^

[ace23]

after being crucified...he spent an "eternity" in hell paying for our sins
My mom is very devout Christian, and I've never heard that in my life. He died, and he rose on the third day, then went to heaven.

You sure you're not pulling that out of your ass? :oldlol: (Sorry, had to do it.)

[-p.tiddy-]

My mom is very devout Christian, and I've never heard that in my life. He died, and he rose on the third day, then went to heaven.

You sure you're not pulling that out of your ass? :oldlol: (Sorry, had to do it.)
no, not at all...an "eternity" can take place within no time here on Earth, or at least that is how I imagined it when explained to me...

sigh, I'm on my phone or would look for link

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/did_jesus_go_to_hell.htm

there

[-p.tiddy-]

I thought that is why it was such a sacrifice...God was willing to send his own son to Hell for us :confusedshrug:

[Nanners]

lets say that jesus actually went to hell.... then could actually be chilling out with pat tillman right now.

[Nanners]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/did_jesus_go_to_hell.htm

there

is this your source for real? why not get a youtube video or something a little more concrete?

also how do you make a website with a typewriter?

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf42.htm

:confusedshrug:



I mean what kind of site do you want with this subject, the "OFFICIAL" web site of Jesus? :oldlol:

[-p.tiddy-]

it looks like there is some debate over wether or not he went to hell though...

that's crazy, I always thought it was just known that he did...


it's crazy just how much the Bible is debated...huge details like that aren't clear to everyone

[MMM]

after being crucified...he spent an "eternity" in hell paying for our sins

Jesus was not crucified nor did he die

[-p.tiddy-]

Jesus was not crucified nor did he die
because he wasn't a real person? is that where you are going with that?

that isn't being debated in here, that is another thread...another 100 previous threads in here

[DonDadda59]

Didn't Jesus go to hell to take all the righteous souls with him to Heaven after the crucifiction? Which begs the question- if the only way to Heaven is through Christ and his sacrifice... did everyone go to hell before that happened, no matter how well they lived their lives? Seems like a major flaw in the great cosmic plan that Jehovah slept on for a bit :facepalm

Then he throws his own son under the bus to fix the problem. That's some shitty Universe-running and parenting right there. :coleman:

[MMM]

because he wasn't a real person? is that where you are going with that?

that isn't being debated in here, that is another thread...another 100 previous threads in here

there is more then one perspective on Jesus, Why is the christian view the right one????

[miller-time]

Didn't Jesus go to hell to take all the righteous souls with him to Heaven after the crucifiction? Which begs the question- if the only way to Heaven is through Christ and his sacrifice... did everyone go to hell before that happened, no matter how well they lived their lives? Seems like a major flaw in the great cosmic plan that Jehovah slept on for a bit :facepalm

Then he throws his own son under the bus to fix the problem. That's some shitty Universe-running and parenting right there. :coleman:

From my understanding I think they were judged on their adherence to the commandments. Also I've been told that the concept of Hell isn't mentioned in the old testament (but I could be wrong about that). Even if you haven't heard of Jesus today I think you are just judged on your deeds. Which reminds me of this joke.

The eskimo asks the Priest, "If I didn't know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

"No, not if you didn't know." replied the priest.

Angrily, the eskimo replied, "Then why did you tell me?"

[Dolphin]

From a purely philosophical standpoint, I don't think there's a bigger sacrifice than accepting the finality of your life knowing that you have the power to prevent it. To know you have this great power, to know your father has "forsaken" you and to not say "F this BS, I'm getting outta here", but to accept your fate.

Also, I haven't read the Bible in forever, but did Jesus know he was going to rise on the third day? I don't remember him having knowledge of this. If he didn't, it weakens the argument that since he rose on the third day, he didn't really make a sacrifice. A sacrifice is as much a state of mind and action, as it is an end result.

All of this combined seems like some major bravery and strength.

[Edwin]

Also, I haven't read the Bible in forever, but did Jesus know he was going to rise on the third day?
Yes, there's some verses in Matthew 27 where Jesus is talking and He says or he points out He will rise on the third day.

[miller-time]

I like him as a poster as well, that being said this is probably his worst thread ever lol

Aww thanks.

But yeah the thread isn't great, I just thought the image was good for a laugh more than anything. It is hardly what I would call my best argument lol. It was more of a springboard into discussion rather than a solid point. I'm not too worried about what Tillman did rather than interested in what Jesus did (or didn't do).

I've actually been reading the New Testament but I've found it rather boring and tedious so far, so to keep my interest up I find it best if I am challenged or if people bring up passages that have specific meanings.

[lakers_forever]

Even the OP (a good poster most of the time) admits that the thread is a joke (a bad and disrespetcful one IMO). If you honestly really want to understand what Jesus sacrifice meant (to us Christians) and Christianity as a religion, I suggest readind "Mere Christianity" by the great CS Lewis. Here is a quote by him on the subject:





We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.

The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.

Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.

Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.

But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.

[lakers_forever]

after being crucified...he spent an "eternity" in hell paying for our sins

Jesus (to us Christians) was God incarnated (fully man and fully God). How could he spend an "eternity" in Hell? That is not orthodox Christianity and I've never heard anything even remote similar to that. Maybe you are mistaking this from the Creed:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.

There's controversy on what exactly that (descended into hell) means. But in no way it means he spent eternity in Hell. In my language (portuguese), the phrase is translated to "descended into the house of the dead". From what I've read it's there to make sure that Jesus indeed died like a man and then conquered death itself.

PS: I found this from wikipedia. Hope it helps:


There is an ancient homily on the subject, of unknown authorship, usually entitled The Lord's Descent into Hell that is the second reading at Office of Readings on Holy Saturday in the Roman Catholic Church.[7]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "By the expression 'He descended into Hell', the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil 'who has the power of death' (Hebrews 2:14). In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened Heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him."[8]

As the Catechism says, the word "Hell"

[lakers_forever]

Didn't Jesus go to hell to ta
ke all the righteous souls with him to Heaven after the crucifiction? Which begs the question- if the only way to Heaven is through Christ and his sacrifice... did everyone go to hell before that happened, no matter how well they lived their lives? Seems like a major flaw in the great cosmic plan that Jehovah slept on for a bit :facepalm

Then he throws his own son under the bus to fix the problem. That's some shitty Universe-running and parenting right there. :coleman:

Through Christ, yes. Even those who believe in God, but not believe in Jesus as Christ (judaism, islam), go to heaven trough him. Thus, even those who existed before Jesus time on earh and lived good lives were saved, since Jesus is the Logos, he is God incarnated.

But not necessarily you have to believe in God (at least to my catholic church - which also say that faith alone does not save you, good deeds are mandatory) to be saved. You can be an atheist and be saved. The catholic church speaks on invicible ignorance:


"There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin."

Pope Benedict XVI speaking on Agnostics:



In addition to the two phenomena of religion and anti-religion, a further basic orientation is found in the growing world of agnosticism: people to whom the gift of faith has not been given, but who are nevertheless on the lookout for truth, searching for God. Such people do not simply assert: “There is no God.” They suffer from his absence and yet are inwardly making their way towards him, inasmuch as they seek truth and goodness. They are “pilgrims of truth, pilgrims of peace.” They ask questions of both sides. They take away from militant atheists the false certainty by which these claim to know that there is no God and they invite them to leave polemics aside and to become seekers who do not give up hope in the existence of truth and in the possibility and necessity of living by it. But they also challenge the followers of religions not to consider God as their own property, as if he belonged to them, in such a way that they feel vindicated in using force against others.

These people are seeking the truth, they are seeking the true God, whose image is frequently concealed in the religions because of the ways in which they are often practised. Their inability to find God is partly the responsibility of believers with a limited or even falsified image of God. So all their struggling and questioning is in part an appeal to believers to purify their faith, so that God, the true God, becomes accessible. Therefore I have consciously invited delegates of this third group to our meeting in Assisi, which does not simply bring together representatives of religious institutions. Rather it is a case of being together on a journey towards truth, a case of taking a decisive stand for human dignity and a case of common engagement for peace against every form of destructive force.


Agnostics, who are constantly exercised by the question of God, those who long for a pure heart but suffer on account of our sin, are closer to the Kingdom of God than believers whose life of faith is 'routine' and who regard the Church merely as an institution, without letting their hearts be touched by faith.

[Edwin]

Aww thanks.

But yeah the thread isn't great, I just thought the image was good for a laugh more than anything. It is hardly what I would call my best argument lol. It was more of a springboard into discussion rather than a solid point. I'm not too worried about what Tillman did rather than interested in what Jesus did (or didn't do).

I've actually been reading the New Testament but I've found it rather boring and tedious so far, so to keep my interest up I find it best if I am challenged or if people bring up passages that have specific meanings.
Like I said, I enjoy reading your posts as you come off as a pretty genuinely educated person and not an immature "LOL RELIGION! JEZUZ SUX! ITS FAKE LOL TOOL!" type of person, so I would like to hear your take on Matthew 24 when Jesus is talking about the end.

I'm just curious to hear what's your take on that chapter and I'm not here to debate or anything, I just like hearing diff. perspective on God's Word.

Thank you, God bless.

[MMM]

Through Christ, yes. Even those who believe in God, but not believe in Jesus as Christ (judaism, islam), go to heaven trough him. Thus, even those who existed before Jesus time on earh and lived good lives were saved, since Jesus is the Logos, he is God incarnated.

But not necessarily you have to believe in God (at least to my catholic church - which also say that faith alone does not save you, good deeds are mandatory) to be saved. You can be an atheist and be saved. The catholic church speaks on invicible ignorance:



Pope Benedict XVI speaking on Agnostics:

Muslims believe Jesus is the messiah they also believe it is blasphemy to say he died or was crucified.

[-p.tiddy-]

Jesus (to us Christians) was God incarnated (fully man and fully God). How could he spend an "eternity" in Hell? That is not orthodox Christianity and I've never heard anything even remote similar to that. Maybe you are mistaking this from the Creed:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.

There's controversy on what exactly that (descended into hell) means. But in no way it means he spent eternity in Hell. In my language (portuguese), the phrase is translated to "descended into the house of the dead". From what I've read it's there to make sure that Jesus indeed died like a man and then conquered death itself.

PS: I found this from wikipedia. Hope it helps:


There is an ancient homily on the subject, of unknown authorship, usually entitled The Lord's Descent into Hell that is the second reading at Office of Readings on Holy Saturday in the Roman Catholic Church.[7]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "By the expression 'He descended into Hell', the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil 'who has the power of death' (Hebrews 2:14). In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened Heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him."[8]

As the Catechism says, the word "Hell"—from the Norse, Hel; in Latin, infernus, infernum, inferi; in Greek, ᾍδης (Hades); in Hebrew, שאול (Sheol)—is used in Scripture and the Apostles' Creed to refer to the abode of all the dead, whether righteous or evil, unless or until they are admitted to Heaven (CCC 633). This abode of the dead is the "Hell" into which the Creed says Christ descended. His death freed from exclusion from Heaven the just who had gone before him: "It is precisely these holy souls who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into Hell", the Catechism states (CCC 633), echoing the words of the Roman Catechism, 1,6,3. His death was of no avail to the damned.

Conceptualization of the abode of the dead as a place, though possible and customary, is not obligatory (Church documents, such as catechisms, speak of a "state or place"). Some maintain that Christ did not go to the place of the damned, which is what is generally understood today by the word "Hell". For instance, Thomas Aquinas taught that Christ did not descend into the "Hell of the lost" in his essence, but only by the effect of his death, through which "he put them to shame for their unbelief and wickedness: but to them who were detained in Purgatory he gave hope of attaining to glory: while upon the holy Fathers detained in Hell solely on account of original sin, he shed the light of glory everlasting."[9]

While some maintain that Christ merely descended into the "limbo of the fathers", others, notably theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar (inspired by the visions of Adrienne von Speyr), maintain that it was more than this and that the descent involved suffering by Jesus.[10] Since both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have lauded the theology of Balthasar, and because some do not see a precise doctrinal position of the Church on this point, some maintain that this is a matter on which differences and theological speculation are permissible without transgressing the limits of orthodoxy.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell#Roman_Catholic
I am no church goer by any means, I'm not Christian at all...but the way it was explained to me as a child is just like the 2nd link I posted. That Jesus went to hell after being crucified to pay for our sins. And while I believe everything you post in here to be completely true, I do think there are churches that teach it the way I thought it was.

I have to say this also, that it is the only way the whole thing makes sense to me in terms of Jesus paying for our sins. The alternative is that he just died on the cross and that is IT :confusedshrug: ....then he actually went straight to heaven? There are thousands of people here on Earth that have suffered a worse fate than that. I thought the entire reason his death was significant was that he was going to go to hell to pay for our sins after, and it does look like there are others that believe that.

(I don't literally believe it either way, I just thought that is how most saw it)

[lakers_forever]

Muslims believe Jesus is the messiah they also believe it is blasphemy to say he died or was crucified.

Yep. But not in the sense christians do. Jesus is not the God/son of God.

BTW, most people don't know that the Quran states that muslims, jews and christians worship the same God. This view is also sanctioned by the Catholic Church.

[Stuckey]

wow some loons in here actually think Jesus was a real person

for all we know, he could have been a really convincing bipolar cult leader

[lakers_forever]

I am no church goer by any means, I'm not Christian at all...but the way it was explained to me as a child is just like the 2nd link I posted. That Jesus went to hell after being crucified to pay for our sins. And while I believe everything you post in here to be completely true, I do think there are churches that teach it the way I thought it was.

I have to say this also, that it is the only way the whole thing makes sense to me in terms of Jesus paying for our sins. The alternative is that he just died on the cross and that is IT :confusedshrug: ....then he actually went straight to heaven? There are thousands of people here on Earth that have suffered a worse fate than that. I thought the entire reason his death was significant was that he was going to go to hell to pay for our sins after, and it does look like there are others that believe that.

(I don't literally believe it either way, I just thought that is how most saw it)

Interesting. Btw, congrats, because even as a non-believer, you always manage to show respect for religion (atheism as well*) and their followers here.

Anyway, read the C.S Lewis quote I posted. I think it clearly shows (i know to my biased view as a christian :D) how significant Jesus death was .

* I know it's not a religion, just to show that you respect (as you should) them as well.


EDIT:


We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.

The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.

Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.

Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.

But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.

[lakers_forever]

wow some loons in here actually think Jesus was a real person

for all we know, he could have been a really convincing bipolar cult leader

Actually you would be more of a loon not to believe Jesus* was a real person.
There is a clear consensus among historians about Jesus being an historical person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CC7qNZkOE



* Notice that I don't mention Christ or anything about him being literally the son of God.

[MMM]

Yep. But not in the sense christians do. Jesus is not the God/son of God.

BTW, most people don't know that the Quran states that muslims, jews and christians worship the same God. This view is also sanctioned by the Catholic Church.

Yea Muslims don't see Jesus as god or the son of god but do recognize his miracle birth. Muslims view him as the "anointed one" to come back defeat the anti Christ and lead the world. How does that compare to the christian view????

[miller-time]

Like I said, I enjoy reading your posts as you come off as a pretty genuinely educated person and not an immature "LOL RELIGION! JEZUZ SUX! ITS FAKE LOL TOOL!" type of person, so I would like to hear your take on Matthew 24 when Jesus is talking about the end.

I'm just curious to hear what's your take on that chapter and I'm not here to debate or anything, I just like hearing diff. perspective on God's Word.

Thank you, God bless.

Overall the message is good. While I obviously don't agree that those events will ever take place, the point about maintaining moral and socially acceptable behaviour regardless of whether anyone is watching makes sense. I think the point is sort of reverberated in Matthew 23 when Jesus talks about the Pharisees and their hypocrisy.

I actually find it a bit daunting giving it a review of sorts because it isn't something that I am very familiar with. Both the style and the context are foreign to me. Sometimes it seems like these events were supposed to take place in the disciples lifetime, and other times it seems like it could be interpreted to apply to humanity as a whole. Additionally some of the events seem to be fairly generic.


4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Has there ever been a time when that hasn't been happening?

What version do you think I should be reading? I've been flipping back and forth between the KJV and the NIV.

[Edwin]

Thanks for your reply, that's a pretty interesting answer on your part.

As for the version, I'd say if you plan on studying and taking notes, read them both or flip through them both and if you can find a direct translation of the Greek texts of the NT, then much better because it'll make your vision clearer on some of the verses.

If you plan on just reading for the sake of reading, then I would say you should just read the NIV 1984 as the translation is in a more modernized English and a lot easier to comprehend.

[TheGreatBlaze]

Muslims believe Jesus is the messiah they also believe it is blasphemy to say he died or was crucified.
Ok, so when Allah sent Jesus to be a prophet, what was Jesus' message and why did it fail and get corrupted so badly that Allah had to wait 600 years to send another prophet to clean up the mess? It even says in the Qur'an that the word of Allah cannot be changed so I find that in and of itself pretty funny. Did Allah know that when he put someone on the cross and made it appear to be Jesus that people might...actually think it's Jesus who died on the cross and not someone else? Did Allah know that this would result in the world's largest religion of Christianity with 3 billion followers today? How can Jesus not be viewed as the biggest failed prophet of all time according to Islam. Islam's Qur

[miller-time]

Thanks for your reply, that's a pretty interesting answer on your part.

I could only really answer it on philosophical terms, obviously in a religious sense it doesn't mean anything to me, but I think the message of the story is adaptable to secular humanist philosophy (we are all human after all - even the writers of the new testament).

The one thing I have found reading the bible is how far removed some Christians today are from the text. Especially the part where Jesus gets angry at the people selling things in the temple. How do people rally so strongly behind anti-homosexual causes while turning a blind eye to the multimillion dollar mega-church industry. It reminds my of Ghadi's quote;

[Rasheed1]

[QUOTE=miller-time]I could only really answer it on philosophical terms, obviously in a religious sense it doesn't mean anything to me, but I think the message of the story is adaptable to secular humanist philosophy (we are all human after all - even the writers of the new testament).

[B]The one thing I have found reading the bible is how far removed some Christians today are from the text. Especially the part where Jesus gets angry at the people selling things in the temple. How do people rally so strongly behind anti-homosexual causes while turning a blind eye to the multimillion dollar mega-church industry. It reminds my of Ghadi's quote;

[Just2McFly]

like I said before (in another thread)..... Christians have a habit of picking and choosing what they want to believe and what they want to disregard from their own book..
Definitely.

[miller-time]

like I said before (in another thread)..... Christians have a habit of picking and choosing what they want to believe and what they want to disregard from their own book..

I wouldn't be surprised if those types don't even read the book. They probably had a bunch of children's versions of the more popular stories given to them as children (noah, baby jesus) and now they just listen to whatever their ministers tell them.

[Rasheed1]

I wouldn't be surprised if those types don't even read the book. They probably had a bunch of children's versions of the more popular stories given to them as children (noah, baby jesus) and now they just listen to whatever their ministers tell them.


I think that most christians understand the bible very well. They have gone to christian schools and spent a good deal of time in church (plus bible study, choir etc...). The pastor may give a sermon or homily, but they read from scripture. Its just that sometimes you get christians who will actively present arguments for why some things in the bible are relevant and some other things are not. It comes off as arguments of convenience. Now there are also alot of christians who are deep deep into the dogma or tenets of their faith, but there are also alot who skip church on palm sunday and just pick up a palm so they say they went...

the difference I see personally is that this society has an effect on christians. I think this society pushes christians to modernize their religion at a faster pace than other societies and religions

I guess I cant say if thats bad or good, but I can see how it is difficult for christians to be educated and at the same time religious when comes to strict interpretation of these books

[Rasheed1]

Just watched this video and I thought of this conversation about christianity

very interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifUXxsOPMA

[miller-time]

Just watched this video and I thought of this conversation about christianity

very interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifUXxsOPMA

wouldn't you say that study shows the opposite of what you were saying the your post before?

[Rasheed1]

wouldn't you say that study shows the opposite of what you were saying the your post before?


yeah, I would. But it still I thought it was interesting and worth posting.