Wizards turned down James Harden for Bradley Beal and Chris Singleton

[DStebb716]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/washington-wizards-said-to-have-turned-down-trade-for-james-harden/2012/12/11/d2e4dbb4-43c2-11e2-8e70-e1993528222d_story.html


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Owners wouldn't commit to the contract Harden wanted.

[b1imtf]

Wow lol

[HAzE024]

as much as my first reaction was to laugh out loud, beal is eerily similar to harden coming out of college

[IGotACoolStory]

Wow, that's less value than what OKC got from Houston. A lot less.

Wall and Harden would've be such a ridiculous backcourt to build with. This coming from someone who thinks Beal will be a good starter in this league.

[hawkfan]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/washington-wizards-said-to-have-turned-down-trade-for-james-harden/2012/12/11/d2e4dbb4-43c2-11e2-8e70-e1993528222d_story.html


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Owners wouldn't commit to the contract Harden wanted.

Too early to tell on Beal.
But also look in context:
1. They are in rebuild mode with Wall, Beal, Singleton, Crawford, et al.
2. They gave out big contracts to Arenas and then traded for Lewis. And then they are still paying Andray Blatche. So giving out another big contract may not be something they are in the mood for.
3. Would Harden be happy being there? That's an open question.

[tontoz]

I am sick right now. I hated the Okafor/Ariza trade when it happened and now i hate it even more which i didn't think was possible.

:cry:

[Whoah10115]

This can't be serious...this is so stupid on the part of Washington that I question how good a GM Presti is. I'm completely serious. You can't possibly be so stupid to not only undervalue a player but to undervalue his actual market value. This is the sort of thing that makes you wonder if Presti knows what he's doing. I mean the hell out of this.


So much so that I just don't believe it. Presti cannot be so stupid.


And neither can the Wizards...they didn't want to commit to Harden's contract, but they traded for Okafor? AND Ariza?

[PyrrhusX]

I swear there must be more to it than just a simple Beal + filler for Harden. Presti isnt that stupid. It would take Beal at least a few years to develop and to even have a chance at sniffing Hardens production levels. I would rather have asked for the pick to be used on Drummond. But I seriously doubt Presti would be this dumb.

[bluechox2]

:roll:

[Notorious D.M.C]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/washington-wizards-said-to-have-turned-down-trade-for-james-harden/2012/12/11/d2e4dbb4-43c2-11e2-8e70-e1993528222d_story.html


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Owners wouldn't commit to the contract Harden wanted.

this seems so far fetched..I'm having a hard time believing that this franchise didn't want to pair Wall and Harden together

[bagelred]

A little confused. Why do people think Presti is stupid? Beal is the #3 overall pick in the draft.....and you get him on his rookie scale contract for at least 4 years. That's very important to the Thunder. Securing a big time talent on a cheap contract...that's the only way to sustain in a small market.

As it turns out, the deal they got from Rockets is probably better, but its not silly to make that offer to Wizards.....

From Wizards perspective, it's unbelievably foolish not to grab Harden and pair him with Wall. That's baffling. What are chances Beal ends up better than Harden? Possible, but unlikely.

[bmulls]

I think this was a smart move. Harden is good enough to get your team out of the lottery but he's not good enough to build a championship roster around. The Wiz can keep picking up young studs on the cheap through the draft instead of being stuck in the hell that is NBA mediocrity.

[Whoah10115]

As it turns out, the deal they got from Rockets is probably better, but its not silly to make that offer to Wizards.....




It's retarded. You can call Beal anything you want but him and Singleton for James Harden is retarded and indefensible.

[Clifton]

I think this was a smart move. Harden is good enough to get your team out of the lottery but he's not good enough to build a championship roster around. The Wiz can keep picking up young studs on the cheap through the draft instead of being stuck in the hell that is NBA mediocrity.
You got a point.

I just don't think it outweighs the opposite point: You have a chance to get a top 10 player, who is young and only going to improve, for free. All you have to do is pay him the kind of money you pay a player who's good.

Besides, what Harden brings is exactly what the Wizards lack. The Thunder have a go-to perimeter player; so for that matter do the Rockets. The Wizards don't. Best-case scenario, Wall is not exactly a guy you iso-up, or P+R, in the last two minutes of a game; Harden and Westbrook and Durant and Lin are. The Wizards needed this badly, but their ownership does not want to be good. They throw contracts at players who are obviously terrible (Blatche) and then make up for it by not paying money for guys who are awesome and on the upswing. I'm not buying prudence/patience on the part of Wizards brass here; they simply don't care to build a winning environment.

[bagelred]

It's retarded. You can call Beal anything you want but him and Singleton for James Harden is retarded and indefensible.

How do YOU know? We don't even know how good Bradley Beal is going to be yet, right? So how can you say it's a bad trade? He's the #3 overall pick on a cheap contract.

[longtime lurker]

:roll: :roll: this can't be serious. Wizards don't want to commit to Harden but they'll commit to Nene, Okafor and Ariza? Loooooooool and some NBA teams wonder why they forever suck :roll:

[The Macho Man]

Harden isn't worth the money... but at least they would be watchable. Not like they are gonna win shit anytime soon.

[Whoah10115]

How do YOU know? We don't even know how good Bradley Beal is going to be yet, right? So how can you say it's a bad trade? He's the #3 overall pick on a cheap contract.



Even if Presti "knows" Harden isn't as good as he is valued, he has to understand that Harden carries great market value. Harden was already the #3 pick in the draft and has developed into a star. He's been in the playoffs every year he's been in the league and has done more than any player in his draft class.

Presti would have to genuinely believe that Beal has elite upside and at least comparable to Harden's.


Also (in response to someone else) the idea that Harden isn't someone you build around...they have Wall on the team. Not every team has to be built around one top 5 player. That would leave very few contenders. Having Wall and Harden and Nene...that's a great start.

[Clifton]

Harden isn't worth the money...
He's not worth the money for the Thunder, because they already have two better versions.

But every team needs someone like him, and once you have him, he's going to cost max money. That's the deal, if you're an NBA owner. And like others have pointed out, teams end up spending money. The teams that are timid about getting good players usually aren't simply "frugal"; they usually are totally willing to throw out 5 year midlevel contracts to bench players who are past their prime, and etc. It's better to have one or two really good players, a great coach, and a bunch of D-Leaguers (see: 3peat Lakers, Spurs for the last decade) than to have a bunch of mediocre players who cost 5-8 mil a year. Which is what the Wiz seem to want. I wonder how much money they really make this way.

[longtime lurker]

Harden isn't worth the money... but at least they would be watchable. Not like they are gonna win shit anytime soon.

Well of course he's not worth the money, but on a team like Washington where him and John Wall would make a formidable duo I think he would actually be a difference maker.

[hawkfan]

A little confused. Why do people think Presti is stupid? Beal is the #3 overall pick in the draft.....and you get him on his rookie scale contract for at least 4 years. That's very important to the Thunder. Securing a big time talent on a cheap contract...that's the only way to sustain in a small market.

As it turns out, the deal they got from Rockets is probably better, but its not silly to make that offer to Wizards.....

From Wizards perspective, it's unbelievably foolish not to grab Harden and pair him with Wall. That's baffling. What are chances Beal ends up better than Harden? Possible, but unlikely.

Harden gets a max contract.
Then Wall has to get a max contract soon.
Then you have Okafor and Nene with big contracts.

So Wall, Harden, Okafor and Nene have big contracts. Can this 4 carry a team to a championship? Doubt it.

Beal on a rookie contract gives the Wizards some financial flexibility.

It's too early to tell what Beal can be. He was the no. 3 pick in the draft. It's his rookie season.

[Whoah10115]

Harden gets a max contract.
Then Wall has to get a max contract soon.
Then you have Okafor and Nene with big contracts.

So Wall, Harden, Okafor and Nene have big contracts. Can this 4 carry a team to a championship? Doubt it.

Beal on a rookie contract gives the Wizard some financial flexibility.

It's too early to tell what Beal can be. He was the no. 3 pick in the draft. It's his rookie season.



Who told them to trade for Okafor and Ariza? That's stupid.


You have a starting lineup and possibly another lotto pick/mid-round pick.


Harden is on a rookie contract for another year. Wall has two years on a rookie contract. The team is already in place by then. That's a lineup of 5 starting quality players. All play defense (right now 4 of them play it well) and they can run...even Okafor can a little bit.


Better yet tho is they don't trade for Okafor and Ariza. That's an awesome deal. Beal gives them flexibility to be average. By the team he's that good he's gonna be making a lot of money. Should they be banking on draft picks forever? Wall doesn't wanna be there right now.

[SCdac]

Given the failure of Gilbert Arenas (who was a borderline super star) in the not too distance past and his 111 Million dollar contract, I don't blame the wizards for being hesitant on gigantic contracts in general. If it doesn't spell championship, might as well play it safe with promising rookie contracts as the cap tightens up. Would be an extremely exciting duo though (Wall/Harden).

[bagelred]

So Wall, Harden, Okafor and Nene have big contracts. Can this 4 carry a team to a championship? Doubt it.



John Wall has another 2 years on rookie scale.
Okafor only has one more year on contract.
Ariza only has one more year on contract.
Only Nene has a big long term deal, so the money issue is BS.

[Whoah10115]

Given the failure of Gilbert Arenas (who was a borderline super star) in the not too distance past and his 111 Million dollar contract, I don't blame the wizards for being hesitant on gigantic contracts in general. If it doesn't spell championship, might as well play it safe with promising rookie contracts as the cap tightens up. Would be an extremely exciting duo though (Wall/Harden).



Did you see that thread about one team having three players averaging 20+PPG?


Butler and Jamison each averaged within a half point of 20PPG. The reason why they didn't? Their PG was Gilbert Arenas. Arenas is less a PG than Russell Westbrook. The more he scored the less they won. He and Harden are not the same.

[SCdac]

Did you see that thread about one team having three players averaging 20+PPG?


Butler and Jamison each averaged within a half point of 20PPG. The reason why they didn't? Their PG was Gilbert Arenas. Arenas is less a PG than Russell Westbrook. The more he scored the less they won. He and Harden are not the same.

No, they're not the same. I agree. But in the eyes of the Wizards front office... maybe they're not different enough either. I think prime Arenas was better than current Harden, but the difference in this equation is Wall. Him plus Harden would be explosive, absolutely. But Not enough imo. Enough to be relevant, sure, but how much higher do they go I wonder? As long as Lebron is in the east (a bane in the Wizards side not long ago) I simply don't blame the Wizards for not jumping the gun on Harden being a franchise savior (alongside Wall).

[hawkfan]

John Wall has another 2 years on rookie scale.
Okafor only has one more year on contract.
Ariza only has one more year on contract.
Only Nene has a big long term deal, so the money issue is BS.

Keeping Wall and Harden on big max deals and getting rid of Okafor and Nene means they have to somehow find money to spend on bigs down the line with less money around.

Also there are issues of team continuity - its better to build a team that plays together over several seasons than one that has huge parts changing again and again.

And bigs always get overpaid, which means it would be hard to get two guys with some caliber.

Criticizing the Okafor trade is fine now, but consider that they had Blatche and McGee and were trying to change the locker room culture, and Okafor is a solid veteran character-wise.

[Whoah10115]

No, they're not the same. I agree. But in the eyes of the Wizards front office... maybe they're not different enough either. I think prime Arenas was better than current Harden, but the difference in this equation is Wall. Him plus Harden would be explosive, absolutely. But Not enough imo. Enough to be relevant, sure, but how much higher do they go I wonder? As long as Lebron is in the east (a bane in the Wizards side not long ago) I simply don't blame the Wizards for not jumping the gun on Harden being a franchise savior (alongside Wall).


Prime Arenas, maybe...but I'm not so sure, really. He had the ability to be, but he was much more concerned with himself. The better he seemed to get the worse his team got. And his team didn't get any worse. Besides, Harden is more talented, smarter and 2 years younger.


How relevant would they be...right now? Who are they going to get who will make them that much more relevant overnight? It's not as tho they have to hitch their entire dependency on the back of Harden and Wall. They'd be the high-end labor but there is space for more. They can't just worry that Lebron is in their conference. Harden is 23. They're in the playoffs. They also have Nene and quality depth with Vesely and Seraphin and Booker. Another decent pick free agency. It's not like people wouldn't be down to live in DC.


Lastly, how relevant are they if they're trading for Okafor and Ariza?

[Whoah10115]

Criticizing the Okafor trade is fine now, but consider that they had Blatche and McGee and were trying to change the locker room culture, and Okafor is a solid veteran character-wise.


I criticized it when it happened. It's an awful move. If they didn't already have Nene it'd be good. But Nene is already there. Do they want to run? Do they wanna play halfcourt? Do they wanna clog their team with quality players who aren't going to be the difference? It was an awful move. You don't have to go overboard to change culture.


And what continuity? They suck. Okafor, Ariza, Beal...all new, so no continuity. Getting Harden and maxing him means continuity, does it not? Why would they trade Nene?

[hawkfan]

Given the failure of Gilbert Arenas (who was a borderline super star) in the not too distance past and his 111 Million dollar contract, I don't blame the wizards for being hesitant on gigantic contracts in general. If it doesn't spell championship, might as well play it safe with promising rookie contracts as the cap tightens up. Would be an extremely exciting duo though (Wall/Harden).

Plus 1.
James Harden and John Wall would have been something special.

[hawkfan]

I criticized it when it happened. It's an awful move. If they didn't already have Nene it'd be good. But Nene is already there. Do they want to run? Do they wanna play halfcourt? Do they wanna clog their team with quality players who aren't going to be the difference? It was an awful move. You don't have to go overboard to change culture.


And what continuity? They suck. Okafor, Ariza, Beal...all new, so no continuity. Getting Harden and maxing him means continuity, does it not? Why would they trade Nene?

Send Okafor to the Hawks for expirers, and then spend your money on free agents next season.

[Whoah10115]

Send Okafor to the Hawks for expirers, and then spend your money on free agents next season.


You would prefer Smith play SF? Cuz I think that's an awful idea, for the most part.

[hawkfan]

You would prefer Smith play SF? Cuz I think that's an awful idea, for the most part.

Depends on matchups.
Okafor and Pachulia at center saves wear and tear on Horford.
Okafor is a clear upgrade over Johan Petro.

[Whoah10115]

Depends on matchups.
Okafor and Pachulia at center saves wear and tear on Horford.
Okafor is a clear upgrade over Johan Petro.



Okafor is a clear upgrade over Pachulia. Put him on a good team and he's a very good player.

[ClutchOver9000]

Wizards gonna Wiz...

[hawkfan]

Okafor is a clear upgrade over Pachulia. Put him on a good team and he's a very good player.

He can start and Pachulia off the bench. That's fine.
Okafor would definitely be helpful to the Hawks.
If the Wizards don't want him, send him to Atlanta.
He would also be insurance in case Josh bolts after this summer, which is possible.

[bagelred]

Keeping Wall and Harden on big max deals and getting rid of Okafor and Nene means they have to somehow find money to spend on bigs down the line with less money around.


This is nonsense.

They'll have plenty of money. Wall and Harden will be their two cornerstones going forward. Everyone else is expendable.

Wall and Harden are almost the same age. They'd grow together. It's hard to understand Wizards perspective if this is true.....Okafor and Ariza's contracts will be off the books very soon, and you could always trade Nene for cap space and picks if you are worried about money. He's still a very desirable player.

[FireDavidKahn]

as much as my first reaction was to laugh out loud, beal is eerily similar to harden coming out of college
Except not nearly as good in any area of the game.:oldlol:

[Kurosawa0]

Not saying Beal is going to be as good as Harden, but...

Harden's rookie year: 10 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg in 23 minutes.

Beal? 12 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apg in 28 minutes.

Harden shot it better, but it's not like those are very different numbers.

[R.I.P.]

PG Wall
SG Harden
SF Not Vesely
PF Nene
C Okafor

That should be a play-off team in the East.

[Whoah10115]

Not saying Beal is going to be as good as Harden, but...

Harden's rookie year: 10 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg in 23 minutes.

Beal? 12 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apg in 28 minutes.

Harden shot it better, but it's not like those are very different numbers.


Harden did it on a 50win team, not the 0-12 and 3-15 (they're .500 lately!) Washington Wizards.

[Kurosawa0]

Harden did it on a 50win team, not the 0-12 and 3-15 (they're .500 lately!) Washington Wizards.

Put Beal on OKC and he does it on a 50 win team too. I'm not saying Beal will be as good as Harden, but it's not ridiculous for Washington to not have given up the 3rd pick in the draft for a more expensive player that plays the same position.

I wouldn't have done it either.

[Whoah10115]

Put Beal on OKC and he does it on a 50 win team too. I'm not saying Beal will be as good as Harden, but it's not ridiculous for Washington to not have given up the 3rd pick in the draft for a more expensive player that plays the same position.

I wouldn't have done it either.



It is ridiculous and indefensible. Beal is a shooter who hasn't shown himself to be a great shooter yet. He's no playmaker like Harden was even as a rookie.


Even as a 6th man Harden had already established himself as a star. The #3 pick still has to live up to it. Harden already had. He put up an all-star season from the bench, on a team that went to the Finals. And despite how he played in the Finals, he beasted throughout the playoffs.


Your only excuse for not making that trade is if you flat out think Beal has something extra. There is just no argument for any winning club to not make that trade. Harden is also a #3 pick and already high-end quality. Not to mention that it gives Wall a reason to not hate being on the team.

[Kurosawa0]

Your only excuse for not making that trade is if you flat out think Beal has something extra. There is just no argument for any winning club to not make that trade. Harden is also a #3 pick and already high-end quality. Not to mention that it gives Wall a reason to not hate being on the team.

You don't trade a top 3 pick for the 6th man of the year. Especially not when that 6th man of the year is going to make $80 million and Beal is on a rookie deal.

It's probably the same reason Golden State didn't want to trade Klay Thompson for Harden either.

And just because Harden was on a team that went to the Finals, doesn't make him a winning player. We don't know that yet. His career status really isn't that much different than Josh Howard's after the 2006 Dallas run. Look how that turned out.

[Clifton]

You don't trade a top 3 pick for the 6th man of the year.
You're a moron.

Does your face have eyes in it? Try using them.

[Kurosawa0]

You're a moron.

Does your face have eyes in it? Try using them.

Yes, because you can always tell how guards are going to turn out by the first few months of their rookie seasons.

[Whoah10115]

You don't trade a top 3 pick for the 6th man of the year. Especially not when that 6th man of the year is going to make $80 million and Beal is on a rookie deal.

It's probably the same reason Golden State didn't want to trade Klay Thompson for Harden either.

And just because Harden was on a team that went to the Finals, doesn't make him a winning player. We don't know that yet. His career status really isn't that much different than Josh Howard's after the 2006 Dallas run. Look how that turned out.



I'm sorry it's not even debatable. James Harden is a #3 pick and has shown nothing but maturity and unselfishness in being a 6th man, not to mention the way he plays.


If the Warriors actually failed to trade Thompson for Harden then the Warriors are also retarded. Thompson is better than Beal, I think, but Harden is a better player NOW than Thompson will ever be. Curry is no pure point and having a playmaker like Harden, who is also a great shooter? I can't imagine Golden State is stupid enough not to make that trade.


You know who was drafted behind Harden in 2009? Stephen Curry. And Stephen neither does nor should have the market value that Harden does. And he's a year older. You keep saying #3 pick in the draft and the fact is that Harden is the #3 pick in a beastly draft. And he's been the most impressive player in that draft so far.

[Kurosawa0]

I'm sorry it's not even debatable. James Harden is a #3 pick and has shown nothing but maturity and unselfishness in being a 6th man, not to mention the way he plays.


If the Warriors actually failed to trade Thompson for Harden then the Warriors are also retarded. Thompson is better than Beal, I think, but Harden is a better player NOW than Thompson will ever be. Curry is no pure point and having a playmaker like Harden, who is also a great shooter? I can't imagine Golden State is stupid enough not to make that trade.


You know who was drafted behind Harden in 2009? Stephen Curry. And Stephen neither does nor should have the market value that Harden does. And he's a year older. You keep saying #3 pick in the draft and the fact is that Harden is the #3 pick in a beastly draft. And he's been the most impressive player in that draft so far.

You're not getting it though. It's not about Harden being the better player. That's obvious. It's about trading for him and then paying him $80 million vs. a rookie deal. We don't know how good Thompson or Beal are going to be. Especially Beal. Harden is a good player, but I don't think he's a superstar. I'd rather pay a rookie who might be 80% of what Harden is for like 25% of the cost.

Besides, I really don't think Wall and Harden would be a great fit.

[bagelred]

And he's been the most impressive player in that draft so far.

coughcoughBlakeGriffincoughcough


But yeah.....agreed......

[Whoah10115]

You're not getting it though. It's not about Harden being the better player. That's obvious. It's about trading for him and then paying him $80 million vs. a rookie deal. We don't know how good Thompson or Beal are going to be. Especially Beal. Harden is a good player, but I don't think he's a superstar. I'd rather pay a rookie who might be 80% of what Harden is for like 25% of the cost.

Besides, I really don't think Wall and Harden would be a great fit.



But when is he going to be 80% of what Harden is? This year? If in year 3 Beal is 80% of the player that Harden was in year 3...he'd be getting paid what Harden got paid in year 3. Or is he going to be in year 2 80% of what Harden is now? I doubt you think that.


If we're going on a yearly basis, then OK. But Harden has moved on and is more than that. How long are the Wizards going to wait? 3 years? It's worth not paying Harden the money because in 3 years Beal will be 80% of what Harden is? And when Beal is finally 80% of what Harden is, you think he's still going to make 25% of his contract?

If he's 80% of what Harden is then he is going to make more than 80% of what Harden makes.

[Whoah10115]

coughcoughBlakeGriffincoughcough


But yeah.....agreed......


I know that...but Griffin has missed a season and Harden had a comparable year to him last year, in the regular season. Harden has been in the playoffs every year and was better in his second year playoff run than Griffin was last year. Not Griffin's fault, but Harden has done more so far.

[FireDavidKahn]

Put Beal on OKC and he does it on a 50 win team too. I'm not saying Beal will be as good as Harden, but it's not ridiculous for Washington to not have given up the 3rd pick in the draft for a more expensive player that plays the same position.

I wouldn't have done it either.
No Beal wouldn't be doing it because he would be benched and not playing.

[Kurosawa0]

But when is he going to be 80% of what Harden is? This year? If in year 3 Beal is 80% of the player that Harden was in year 3...he'd be getting paid what Harden got paid in year 3. Or is he going to be in year 2 80% of what Harden is now? I doubt you think that.


If we're going on a yearly basis, then OK. But Harden has moved on and is more than that. How long are the Wizards going to wait? 3 years? It's worth not paying Harden the money because in 3 years Beal will be 80% of what Harden is? And when Beal is finally 80% of what Harden is, you think he's still going to make 25% of his contract?

If he's 80% of what Harden is then he is going to make more than 80% of what Harden makes.

The Wizards don't have to make Beal a qualifying offer until 2016. I don't know how good Beal is going to be in 2013, let alone 2016. He could go either way, but you don't give him up right now. Especially when he hasn't even played with Wall.

If Beal sucks in a couple of years, then they'll have missed on a good trade. If he's getting you 18-20 points a game and shooting 40% from three, you'd rather pay him $6 million to do that than Harden $15 million to do what he does.

The thing is, you think about it, but in the end you don't do it. It's why OKC ended up with an expiring contract and Jeremy Lamb. Both Golden State and Washington probably thought about it, but decided that Harden isn't a home run vs. the potential of the guys they have.

It's funny, I remember having this same conversation about Andrew Bynum and Jason Kidd. You never know, but GMs almost always go with potential because if you're wrong on that side most times you're REALLY wrong.

[Kurosawa0]

No Beal wouldn't be doing it because he would be benched and not playing.


We're talking about the 2010 Thunder. Beal would've played for that team.