Where did the 'Kobe Bryant is a leader (a good one at that)' myth begin?

[stallionaire]

I want to know why people think Kobe Bryant is a good leader.

Last night C Webb called out the fact that the entire team is laid back and lazy on the court and they don't have anywhere near the urgency they should at this point in the season. He recalled Jordan's Bulls in the 90s and that they wanted to be dominate every night and their demeanor on the court filled the arena with tension so tough you could cut it with a knife.

Part of that was because Jordan groomed the team to not **** around, ever. Go HAM all season and then win the ship.

Kobe Bryant has never appeared to me as a good leader. He talks behind players backs, in recent interviews Kobe even talks like he has all the answers as a leader but the product isn't getting better and it's been terrible since pre-season.

Hell, even LeBron James can be considered a great leader with what he had on the Cavs. Terrible personell but he inspired the team, LIFTED them to 60+ seasons.

So I ask again:

Where did the myth begin? Why is Kobe even considered a leader?

It's pretty clear Phil Jackson was the leader in all his tenure with Kobe. Shaq for his 3FMVPs.

[Bandito]

I am not saying he's a good leader but you do know there is so much he can do to inspire people right? If the don't play with urgency he can't spank them in retaliation.

Also they are missing two key players in gasol and Nash. Nash was traded to lead the charge. And either way the problem is defense, and the Lakers haven't do a good job at it. And the guy traded to lead the D, hasn't do a good job at it either. Is not completely his fault the team hasn't play that good, but yes he would have to change his view of hoe to lead completely if he wants to.win. Somebody on the Lakers management should give him the Art of War to Kobe for inspiration.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Where did it begin? Probably in being the most successful team player of this generation. 7 conference titles, 5 championship titles. If you wish to credit him for his teams record this year then you also have to credit him for his unrivaled past team success. If Phil Jackson was the only leader of the last two, then why is Mike Brown/ D'antoni not to blame for this year's record? Why is Michael Jordan considered a successful team leader if his teams also were "led" by Phil Jackson. :confusedshrug:

I don't think LeBron James winning a single title with two all star players during a shortened season shows his style of leadership is better.

[ripthekik]

[QUOTE]http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kevin-love-remains-unsure-about-timberwolves--future-200009299.html

"I don't know who labels people stars, but even [T'wolves owner] Glen Taylor said: I don't think Kevin Love is a star, because he hasn't led us to the playoffs," Love told Yahoo! Sports. "I mean, it's not like I had much support out there.
"That's a tough pill to swallow."

He missed a month on the floor, but his ears missed nothing from those in management whispering that maybe the injury didn't happen the way Love insisted it did.
"Even people in my own organization were asking if it was a legitimate injury, people calling my honesty and integrity into question," Love says. "And that's what really hurt me."

[B]"You walk into the locker room every year, and it's completely turned over," Love says. "There's new guys everywhere. And then it happens again and again. You start to wonder: Is there really a plan here? Is there really any kind of a

[stallionaire]

:lol

7th seed and rising. still more injured than the lakers :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ripthekik]

7th seed and rising. still more injured than the lakers :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
when Lakers eventually rise up into playoff seeding, which team do you think is going to be left out? :lol

[stallionaire]

when Lakers eventually rise up into playoff seeding, which team do you think is going to be left out? :lol

The Lakers.

:kobe:

move along son.

I got a 7th seed team that is locked for a top 4 seed. Swerve bitch.

[Shepseskaf]

I want to know why people think Kobe Bryant is a good leader.

Last night C Webb called out the fact that the entire team is laid back and lazy on the court and they don't have anywhere near the urgency they should at this point in the season. He recalled Jordan's Bulls in the 90s and that they wanted to be dominate every night and their demeanor on the court filled the arena with tension so tough you could cut it with a knife.

Part of that was because Jordan groomed the team to not **** around, ever. Go HAM all season and then win the ship.

Kobe Bryant has never appeared to me as a good leader. He talks behind players backs, in recent interviews Kobe even talks like he has all the answers as a leader but the product isn't getting better and it's been terrible since pre-season.

Hell, even LeBron James can be considered a great leader with what he had on the Cavs. Terrible personell but he inspired the team, LIFTED them to 60+ seasons.

So I ask again:

Where did the myth begin? Why is Kobe even considered a leader?

It's pretty clear Phil Jackson was the leader in all his tenure with Kobe. Shaq for his 3FMVPs.
You raise some very valid points. I think that Kobe is more of a 'lead by example' type of individual than someone who knows how to motivate teammates through personal communication.

The fact remains, though, that he has been either the de facto leader, or one of the top leaders, of an incredibly successful franchise for over a decade and a half. He has to get lots of credit for playing that role, though it can be debated on who the most effective leader was during that time period.

For me, though, Kobe's history of talking about teammates through the media and throwing people under the bus is troubling. To a certain extent, that will diminsh his legacy, but no matter what he'll go down in history as one of the greatest winners in sporting history.

[stallionaire]

You raise some very valid points. I think that Kobe is more of a 'lead by example' type of individual than someone who knows how to motivate teammates through personal communication.

The fact remains, though, that he has been either the de facto leader, or one of the top leaders, of an incredibly successful franchise for over a decade and a half. He has to get lots of credit for playing that role, though it can be debated on who the most effective leader was during that time period.

For me, though, Kobe's history of talking about teammates through the media and throwing people under the bus is troubling. To a certain extent, that will diminsh his legacy, but no matter what he'll go down in history as one of the greatest winners in sporting history.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm surprised I got one. :applause:

+rep

[swi7ch]

No idea.

Remember, this is the same guy who's team was up 3-1 against the PHO Suns in the mid-00s and in game 7, he scored 28 pts in the first half and attempted only like 3 shots in the second half. Not because the Suns played great defense but because he realized just how much he had to do just to beat the Suns and that was only the first round. He demanded a trade after that season.

Same thing in the Finals against BOS. Just flat-out quit in Game 7 and got blown out.

[Bandito]

No idea.

Remember, this is the same guy who's team was up 3-1 against the PHO Suns in the mid-00s and in game 7, he scored 28 pts in the first half and attempted only like 3 shots in the second half. Not because the Suns played great defense but because he realized just how much he had to do just to beat the Suns and that was only the first round. He demanded a trade after that season.

Same thing in the Finals against BOS. Just flat-out quit in Game 7 and got blown out.In defense of Kobe in Boston he just got owned by Pierce:lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No idea.

Remember, this is the same guy who's team was up 3-1 against the PHO Suns in the mid-00s and in game 7, he scored 28 pts in the first half and attempted only like 3 shots in the second half. Not because the Suns played great defense but because he realized just how much he had to do just to beat the Suns and that was only the first round. He demanded a trade after that season.

Same thing in the Finals against BOS. Just flat-out quit in Game 7 and got blown out.

Kobe's playoff team success in unrivaled in recent memory.

If the worst thing you can say about his leadership is his inabiliity to lead a 7th seed past a 2 seed or he didn't win a 6th title already, then apparently there are only a couple or so good team leaders in NBA history.

[swag2011]

You raise some very valid points. I think that Kobe is more of a 'lead by example' type of individual than someone who knows how to motivate teammates through personal communication.

The fact remains, though, that he has been either the de facto leader, or one of the top leaders, of an incredibly successful franchise for over a decade and a half. He has to get lots of credit for playing that role, though it can be debated on who the most effective leader was during that time period.

For me, though, Kobe's history of talking about teammates through the media and throwing people under the bus is troubling. To a certain extent, that will diminsh his legacy, but no matter what he'll go down in history as one of the greatest winners in sporting history.


Can you give me an example of this, because from what I can remember, any and every person kobe has talked about through the media has said something about him as well.

Kobe and Shaq BOTH went at each other in the media. Phil told the world Kobe was uncoachable, yet Kobe never said anything back. He must not have been THAT uncoachable because Phil came back and coached him a few years later, with a sh*t team.

Called out Bynum? Sure i'll give you that one. yet people absolutely forget kobe sticking up for bynum all last year when he took the 3 pointer, when he played poorly in the playoffs, and when he said he sat out in timeouts. There are SEVERAL videos on youtube of kobe sticking up for bynum during all that last year, yet no one comments on this now do we?

Gasol? The only thing i can remember him saying about Gasol was that he needs to play with a higher sense of urgency and be more aggressive. And once again, this past summer Kobe made a statement and said as long as I'm with the Lakers, Gasol will be there. Just this week, he talked about wanting to play with Gasol and wanting him to be here. So why aren't we talking about that?

The ONLY time i can remember he called out a teammate was Smush Parker, and that was after Smush started taking shots at Kobe through the media. So all this calling out teammate stuff people claim Kobe does is so petty. And where does he throw people under the bus at as well? Not trying to be defensive, but you can't make claims yet give no examples.

But NOTHING will diminish his legacy contrary to what the OP and several others wish to happen. It's set in stone no matter what. I could run a list through all the accolades and stories of his work ethic, determination, but i'll spare you. Nothing can take that away from him or diminish his legacy.

[I<3NBA]

Where did it begin? Probably in being the most successful team player of this generation. 7 conference titles, 5 championship titles. If you wish to credit him for his teams record this year then you also have to credit him for his unrivaled past team success. If Phil Jackson was the only leader of the last two, then why is Mike Brown/ D'antoni not to blame for this year's record? Why is Michael Jordan considered a successful team leader if his teams also were "led" by Phil Jackson. :confusedshrug:

I don't think LeBron James winning a single title with two all star players during a shortened season shows his style of leadership is better.
all the achievements you mentioned are a result of Jackson leading the team, NOT Bryant. go jack off somewhere else where your stupidity does not offend.

and yeah, that includes MJ who couldn't "lead" a team without Jackson.

see the pattern here genius? if not, i'll remind you.

Bulls without Jackson - nowhere. Bulls with Jackson. 6 championships.

Kobe without Jackson - nowhere. Kobe with Jackson - all those rings you're so proud of

[Shepseskaf]

But NOTHING will diminish his legacy contrary to what the OP and several others wish to happen. It's set in stone no matter what. I could run a list through all the accolades and stories of his work ethic, determination, but i'll spare you. Nothing can take that away from him or diminish his legacy.
Dude, take a deep breath and relax. I was trying to present a realistic view of Kobe, as both an individual and a player.

If you're the undisputed leader of a team, you don't say to the media that one of the top players on your squad needs to "put his big boy's pants on". You simply shouldn't do that, but not a single person can pretend to be surprised when Kobe did.

You can protest about his legacy all you want, but its common knowledge that Kobe isn't the greatest teammate by reputation.

Is he one of the hardest workers and greatest winners in the game? Unquestionably, yes. Has he always been a supportive teammate and leader? No.

[longtime lurker]

First the OP is a fvcking idiot. I'm sure stallionaire posting from his mothers basement knows more about leadership than countless NBA players, analysts, and coaches. Second there's more to leadership then just shaking pom poms telling guys nice things. Kobe leads by example and there are countless stories of him being the first guy in the gym, first to practice, endless preparation and taking guys under his wing.

Another thing about this whole throwing teammates under the bus thing is so overblown. Everybody always cries that Kobe calls out Gasol but no one ever mentions that he's the first player to stick up for him in the media.IMO he only calls out the guys that he knows can handle it. There's a reason why he's always complimenting guys like Artest and Fisher instead of calling them out for their lack of play. And OP needs to watch a game on most nights Kobe's the only one playing like he gives a damn. How far do you think this team would go under Howards leadership style of always goofing off and clowning.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

all the achievements you mentioned are a result of Jackson leading the team, NOT Bryant. go jack off somewhere else where your stupidity does not offend.

and yeah, that includes MJ who couldn't "lead" a team without Jackson.

see the pattern here genius? if not, i'll remind you.

Bulls without Jackson - nowhere. Bulls with Jackson. 6 championships.

Kobe without Jackson - nowhere. Kobe with Jackson - all those rings you're so proud of

So where did the Michael Jordan is good leader myth come from?:confusedshrug:

[Rysio]

1-2 rings is enough evidence. and he has 5. /thread

[La Frescobaldi]

I want to know why people think Kobe Bryant is a good leader.

Last night C Webb called out the fact that the entire team is laid back and lazy on the court and they don't have anywhere near the urgency they should at this point in the season. He recalled Jordan's Bulls in the 90s and that they wanted to be dominate every night and their demeanor on the court filled the arena with tension so tough you could cut it with a knife.

Part of that was because Jordan groomed the team to not **** around, ever. Go HAM all season and then win the ship.

Kobe Bryant has never appeared to me as a good leader. He talks behind players backs, in recent interviews Kobe even talks like he has all the answers as a leader but the product isn't getting better and it's been terrible since pre-season.

Hell, even LeBron James can be considered a great leader with what he had on the Cavs. Terrible personell but he inspired the team, LIFTED them to 60+ seasons.

So I ask again:

Where did the myth begin? Why is Kobe even considered a leader?

It's pretty clear Phil Jackson was the leader in all his tenure with Kobe. Shaq for his 3FMVPs.

Now I have not seen this in so many words, but here's how I view it.

No matter how great a player is, they have to have a balance in their teammates - and there is always one in particular. There is the player that the fans anoint as the leader of the team, the alpha male, the main star or whatever you want to call him. Kobe. Jordan.

But the true leader of great teams, and especially repeat, or dynasty teams, has only very seldom been that same court leader.

People think of Dirk as "the man" on the Mavs championship team. But Jason Terry and Jason Kidd were (and are) great leaders on teams. Do they get credit for it? No. And in fact people will instantly say they AIN'T the leader.

This gets REAL argument when you recognize that the true leader of the greatest teams of all time.......... was not ever their star. Not once. People say that Jerry West was the leader of the '72 Lakers but make no mistake that was Chamberlain, with all his eccentric ways, and far in the background Pat Riley over on the bench, doing what had to be done.

It has always been someone else on the team that truly runs things.

You can call it the Lone Ranger and Tonto, or Batman & Robin - whatever analogy you like.

This fact endures.

It has been true from the days of Sam Jones on the Russell Celtics, the days of Walt Frazier & Phil Jackson & Willis on the Knicks, and Oscar on the Kareem Bucks. P Jax was violent, an enforcer, but he was cerebral and that whole team looked to him for that.

It is true to say that Kareem never won a ring without the greatest point guard in the league on his team. Oscar was long past his days when that team won the NBA Finals but make no mistake, Big O was the true leader of that team. Years later, everybody called Magic Johnson the leader of the Lakers even while Kareem was holding the biggest records of all... but it is so typical of people to be discounting the value of James Worthy on that team. Big Game may have blew up after his career but that doesn't change the fact of what he did.

The true leaders are not necessarily quiet, like the prototype, Sam Jones, and they're not always brash like Scottie Pippen. But they are the guys who get it done. They are matched with the elite talent of their day - and that elite talent usually has tremendous ego, can't stand weaker players on his team, and will yell and scream at even small mistakes.

Guys like Jordan or Kobe (though not like Magic or Russell) alienate their teammates by the very force that makes them great.

This fact is not true just in basketball. The greatest musicians are very often the worst music teachers. Moses had to have Aron to "translate" for him. Great political leaders gather great generals and secretaries around them and rely on them to get things done. Lincoln & Grant. Roosevelt & Ike & Harry Hopkins.

There has to be a guy who can speak the language of that elite player - Scottie Pippen was the only guy in the NBA who had a chance of shutting down Michael Jordan for any length of time.... Derek Fisher was the guy who had played madcap full-court rookie 1on1 against Kobe8... and they take that relationship and build it into the rest of the team.
Derek Fisher and Scottie Pippen... these are guys who knew how to translate Kobe's force, Michael's power, into something normal human players could understand

People say 'look how great Russell was, when he retired, the Celtics tanked.'
They don't know what happened.
Bill Russell unceremoniously dumped the Boston Celtics straight into the sewer by retiring unannounced. Celtics organization lost their center and coach 2 months before the season started. He left Red Auerbach holding the bag. Red had just spent his entire off-season getting JoJo White as a replacement for Sam Jones - who had formally announced that would be his last season. True leadership always shines.


And bottom line, no matter how great a player is, if he doesn't have that leader on his team, he will never, ever win anything. Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Shaq, all failed miserably until they got their "Robin."
And now we are seeing it again in Kobe Bryant.

This ain't that "glue that holds the team" crap. This is the true leadership quality, the quiet fire

[bmulls]

His work ethic and will to win are unquestionable, but those things do not necessarily make a great leader. A 17 year veteran should know better than to throw his teammates under the bus as Kobe seems to do every time things aren't going well. It might even be true that somebody needed to say something to Pau, but "put your big boy pants on" is the kind of thing you say in the locker room behind closed doors, not in front of the media. Public shaming is a horrible leadership tactic.

[Hank]

Phil Jackson in his book pretty much summed up the reasons why Kobe the Stringbean Bryant is a horrible leader, and how Kobe's a chump not a champ.

That, and the fact kobe has a "lazy eye".

:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rambo24? Is that you?

[crisoner]

These agenda threads are growing tiresome.

[ILLsmak]

You need a great coach who is aligned with the star. I don't think LeBron lead them any more than Kobe did. When Bron quit, they all looked lost. Leadership would be teaching people to succeed.

-Smak

[dajadeed]

Yeah, Lebron with his 1-3 record in the finals in 9 years is a better leader than the guy with a 5-7 record in the finals in 16 years.

So many ****ing retarded people in this board...

How many guys play in 7 finals? How many guys have multiple rings? How many guys have gone to 3 straight finals on two totally different teams?

Yeah, choke to death on a dick you stupid son of a bitch.

[Heilige]

Now I have not seen this in so many words, but here's how I view it.

No matter how great a player is, they have to have a balance in their teammates - and there is always one in particular. There is the player that the fans anoint as the leader of the team, the alpha male, the main star or whatever you want to call him. Kobe. Jordan.

But the true leader of great teams, and especially repeat, or dynasty teams, has only very seldom been that same court leader.

People think of Dirk as "the man" on the Mavs championship team. But Jason Terry and Jason Kidd were (and are) great leaders on teams. Do they get credit for it? No. And in fact people will instantly say they AIN'T the leader.

This gets REAL argument when you recognize that the true leader of the greatest teams of all time.......... was not ever their star. Not once. People say that Jerry West was the leader of the '72 Lakers but make no mistake that was Chamberlain, with all his eccentric ways, and far in the background Pat Riley over on the bench, doing what had to be done.

It has always been someone else on the team that truly runs things.

You can call it the Lone Ranger and Tonto, or Batman & Robin - whatever analogy you like.

This fact endures.

It has been true from the days of Sam Jones on the Russell Celtics, the days of Walt Frazier & Phil Jackson & Willis on the Knicks, and Oscar on the Kareem Bucks. P Jax was violent, an enforcer, but he was cerebral and that whole team looked to him for that.

It is true to say that Kareem never won a ring without the greatest point guard in the league on his team. Oscar was long past his days when that team won the NBA Finals but make no mistake, Big O was the true leader of that team. Years later, everybody called Magic Johnson the leader of the Lakers even while Kareem was holding the biggest records of all... but it is so typical of people to be discounting the value of James Worthy on that team. Big Game may have blew up after his career but that doesn't change the fact of what he did.

The true leaders are not necessarily quiet, like the prototype, Sam Jones, and they're not always brash like Scottie Pippen. But they are the guys who get it done. They are matched with the elite talent of their day - and that elite talent usually has tremendous ego, can't stand weaker players on his team, and will yell and scream at even small mistakes.

Guys like Jordan or Kobe (though not like Magic or Russell) alienate their teammates by the very force that makes them great.

This fact is not true just in basketball. The greatest musicians are very often the worst music teachers. Moses had to have Aron to "translate" for him. Great political leaders gather great generals and secretaries around them and rely on them to get things done. Lincoln & Grant. Roosevelt & Ike & Harry Hopkins.

There has to be a guy who can speak the language of that elite player - Scottie Pippen was the only guy in the NBA who had a chance of shutting down Michael Jordan for any length of time.... Derek Fisher was the guy who had played madcap full-court rookie 1on1 against Kobe8... and they take that relationship and build it into the rest of the team.
Derek Fisher and Scottie Pippen... these are guys who knew how to translate Kobe's force, Michael's power, into something normal human players could understand

People say 'look how great Russell was, when he retired, the Celtics tanked.'
They don't know what happened.
Bill Russell unceremoniously dumped the Boston Celtics straight into the sewer by retiring unannounced. Celtics organization lost their center and coach 2 months before the season started. He left Red Auerbach holding the bag. Red had just spent his entire off-season getting JoJo White as a replacement for Sam Jones - who had formally announced that would be his last season. True leadership always shines.


And bottom line, no matter how great a player is, if he doesn't have that leader on his team, he will never, ever win anything. Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Shaq, all failed miserably until they got their "Robin."
And now we are seeing it again in Kobe Bryant.

This ain't that "glue that holds the team" crap. This is the true leadership quality, the quiet fire


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[konex]

When you win, you're a good leader. When you lose, you're not :rolleyes:

[Hank]

The only thing kobe the stringbean bryant can lead is most field goal attempts every year, and most missed shots

[jlip]

I think it should be a given that a coach such as Phil Jackson is, by virtue of his job description, the primary leader of any team, but it's important to understand that among the players there is often more than one leader also. Yes, the team's best player is usually the leader, but many times another veteran on the team is likewise just as much a leader. He's just not the team's "superstar", and the world doesn't know what he's doing, in the locker room, in practices, in huddles, and during film sessions.

That's the situation we had with the Lakers from roughly '08-'11. As far as the players were concerned, both Kobe and Fisher were the leaders. Kobe admitted this in an interview a couple of years back. Those two players employed different strategies for leading, but they complimented each other. The current Lakers are missing a "Fisheresque" veteran presence to balance and compliment Kobe's leadership. Couple that with the loss of Phil Jackson's voice, and you have the current Laker situation.

It was the same thing with the 90s Bulls. According to the testimony of both the players and coaches, Pippen was as much the leader of the team as Jordan was. Pippen's more congratulatory and supportive style was the perfect compliment to Jordan's harsher and more demanding brand. That team was the result of both styles and would not have been what they became if one or the other were missing.

[Levity]

Phil Jackson in his book pretty much summed up the reasons why Kobe the Stringbean Bryant is a horrible leader, and how Kobe's a chump not a champ.

That, and the fact kobe has a "lazy eye".

:oldlol:

and then phil came back to won 2 more championships with that horrible leader kobe bryant.....

but to answer OP's obvious and repeated agenda, any idiot can see that during their back to back championship runs, kobe was the sole leader of this team. Gasol played great, yes. but he did not lead that team. Kobe put the team on his shoulders when he had to.

[NumberSix]

What myth? I've never even heard that Kobe was a "leader".

[DatAsh]

Now I have not seen this in so many words, but here's how I view it.

No matter how great a player is, they have to have a balance in their teammates - and there is always one in particular. There is the player that the fans anoint as the leader of the team, the alpha male, the main star or whatever you want to call him. Kobe. Jordan.

But the true leader of great teams, and especially repeat, or dynasty teams, has only very seldom been that same court leader.

People think of Dirk as "the man" on the Mavs championship team. But Jason Terry and Jason Kidd were (and are) great leaders on teams. Do they get credit for it? No. And in fact people will instantly say they AIN'T the leader.

This gets REAL argument when you recognize that the true leader of the greatest teams of all time.......... was not ever their star. Not once. People say that Jerry West was the leader of the '72 Lakers but make no mistake that was Chamberlain, with all his eccentric ways, and far in the background Pat Riley over on the bench, doing what had to be done.

It has always been someone else on the team that truly runs things.

You can call it the Lone Ranger and Tonto, or Batman & Robin - whatever analogy you like.

This fact endures.

It has been true from the days of Sam Jones on the Russell Celtics, the days of Walt Frazier & Phil Jackson & Willis on the Knicks, and Oscar on the Kareem Bucks. P Jax was violent, an enforcer, but he was cerebral and that whole team looked to him for that.

It is true to say that Kareem never won a ring without the greatest point guard in the league on his team. Oscar was long past his days when that team won the NBA Finals but make no mistake, Big O was the true leader of that team. Years later, everybody called Magic Johnson the leader of the Lakers even while Kareem was holding the biggest records of all... but it is so typical of people to be discounting the value of James Worthy on that team. Big Game may have blew up after his career but that doesn't change the fact of what he did.

The true leaders are not necessarily quiet, like the prototype, Sam Jones, and they're not always brash like Scottie Pippen. But they are the guys who get it done. They are matched with the elite talent of their day - and that elite talent usually has tremendous ego, can't stand weaker players on his team, and will yell and scream at even small mistakes.

Guys like Jordan or Kobe (though not like Magic or Russell) alienate their teammates by the very force that makes them great.

This fact is not true just in basketball. The greatest musicians are very often the worst music teachers. Moses had to have Aron to "translate" for him. Great political leaders gather great generals and secretaries around them and rely on them to get things done. Lincoln & Grant. Roosevelt & Ike & Harry Hopkins.

There has to be a guy who can speak the language of that elite player - Scottie Pippen was the only guy in the NBA who had a chance of shutting down Michael Jordan for any length of time.... Derek Fisher was the guy who had played madcap full-court rookie 1on1 against Kobe8... and they take that relationship and build it into the rest of the team.
Derek Fisher and Scottie Pippen... these are guys who knew how to translate Kobe's force, Michael's power, into something normal human players could understand

People say 'look how great Russell was, when he retired, the Celtics tanked.'
They don't know what happened.
Bill Russell unceremoniously dumped the Boston Celtics straight into the sewer by retiring unannounced. Celtics organization lost their center and coach 2 months before the season started. He left Red Auerbach holding the bag. Red had just spent his entire off-season getting JoJo White as a replacement for Sam Jones - who had formally announced that would be his last season. True leadership always shines.


And bottom line, no matter how great a player is, if he doesn't have that leader on his team, he will never, ever win anything. Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Shaq, all failed miserably until they got their "Robin."
And now we are seeing it again in Kobe Bryant.

This ain't that "glue that holds the team" crap. This is the true leadership quality, the quiet fire

Well thought out post, though I'm afraid I must disagree with much of it. Everything I've read and seen over the years leads me to believe that a team's best player is often times also the team's leader.

Magic Johnson and Bill Russell were definitively the leader of their respective teams. There's just too many contemporary player and staff testimonials to try and say otherwise. Oscar was also almost always the leader of the team's he played for. Jordan, and later Jordan/Pippen were certainly the leaders of those Bulls teams.

You're correct in pointing out that Wilt was more the leader of those Laker teams - more so than West was - but he was also arguably the Laker's best player as well, at least if you value defense at all - most people seem to not.

[TheBigVeto]

He's the king of throwing teammates under the bus.
He's not a good leader. Never was, and never will.

[upside24]

You raise some very valid points. I think that Kobe is more of a 'lead by example' type of individual than someone who knows how to motivate teammates through personal communication.

The fact remains, though, that he has been either the de facto leader, or one of the top leaders, of an incredibly successful franchise for over a decade and a half. He has to get lots of credit for playing that role, though it can be debated on who the most effective leader was during that time period.

For me, though, Kobe's history of talking about teammates through the media and throwing people under the bus is troubling. To a certain extent, that will diminsh his legacy, but no matter what he'll go down in history as one of the greatest winners in sporting history.
I agree.

When speaking of Kobe in the future this will without doubt be mentioned. It's not a trait that is desireable in a leader obviously, and it's one of the many reasons why Kobe is a dick.

But despite all of that Kobe is still my favorite player all-time because I care only about Kobe the player, not the person. MJ was and probably still is an asshole, but he is one of my favorites as well.

I guess I'll overlook some of the shit the greats do just because I love watching greatness, and I doubt I'm the only one who does that.

[Legends66NBA7]

But despite all of that Kobe is still my favorite player all-time because I care only about Kobe the player, not the person.

Same here.

That's how everyone should be when trying to remember the great players of any sport.

[gilalizard]

Kobe seems to follow the MJ approach to leadership. Being as hard as possible and sparing no feelings.

Both players made the mistake that the NBA is not the Marines. They are not leading men potentially to their deaths. So that type of ruthless, relentless leadership needs to be leavened by something else.

And that something else, in both their cases, was Phil Jackson.

Neither MJ nor Kobe have displayed any great leadership without Phil Jackson there. PJ balanced out their relentlessness with a wiser and calmer mind as the overarching authority.

Their approaches are valuable in instilling a tough-minded attitude, but ultimately only a tool in the kit of a wiser mind.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Some serious revisionist history going on here...

Phil Jackson would call out his players to the media all of the time

:facepalm

[talkingconch]

so in your case jordan wasnt a leader as well




Hell, even LeBron James can be considered a great leader with what he had on the Cavs. Terrible personell but he inspired the team, LIFTED them to 60+ seasons.


yeah, he sure LIFTED them to 2 playoff failures. we playing for reg season victories now?:applause:

[Remix]

I'm sure we can evaluate a players leadership by just watching games and interviews, fcuk knowing what goes on in practice :rolleyes:

Kobe says it how it is. He gets on Gasol for being soft and not showing up, he says that publicly. But, he also praises players when they play well. He likes Gasol, he even said he thinks Gasol is the "key" to the whole system. You act like he thinks he deserves all the credit.

[shadow]

Now I have not seen this in so many words, but here's how I view it.

No matter how great a player is, they have to have a balance in their teammates - and there is always one in particular. There is the player that the fans anoint as the leader of the team, the alpha male, the main star or whatever you want to call him. Kobe. Jordan.

But the true leader of great teams, and especially repeat, or dynasty teams, has only very seldom been that same court leader.

People think of Dirk as "the man" on the Mavs championship team. But Jason Terry and Jason Kidd were (and are) great leaders on teams. Do they get credit for it? No. And in fact people will instantly say they AIN'T the leader.

This gets REAL argument when you recognize that the true leader of the greatest teams of all time.......... was not ever their star. Not once. People say that Jerry West was the leader of the '72 Lakers but make no mistake that was Chamberlain, with all his eccentric ways, and far in the background Pat Riley over on the bench, doing what had to be done.

It has always been someone else on the team that truly runs things.

You can call it the Lone Ranger and Tonto, or Batman & Robin - whatever analogy you like.

This fact endures.

It has been true from the days of Sam Jones on the Russell Celtics, the days of Walt Frazier & Phil Jackson & Willis on the Knicks, and Oscar on the Kareem Bucks. P Jax was violent, an enforcer, but he was cerebral and that whole team looked to him for that.

It is true to say that Kareem never won a ring without the greatest point guard in the league on his team. Oscar was long past his days when that team won the NBA Finals but make no mistake, Big O was the true leader of that team. Years later, everybody called Magic Johnson the leader of the Lakers even while Kareem was holding the biggest records of all... but it is so typical of people to be discounting the value of James Worthy on that team. Big Game may have blew up after his career but that doesn't change the fact of what he did.

The true leaders are not necessarily quiet, like the prototype, Sam Jones, and they're not always brash like Scottie Pippen. But they are the guys who get it done. They are matched with the elite talent of their day - and that elite talent usually has tremendous ego, can't stand weaker players on his team, and will yell and scream at even small mistakes.

Guys like Jordan or Kobe (though not like Magic or Russell) alienate their teammates by the very force that makes them great.

This fact is not true just in basketball. The greatest musicians are very often the worst music teachers. Moses had to have Aron to "translate" for him. Great political leaders gather great generals and secretaries around them and rely on them to get things done. Lincoln & Grant. Roosevelt & Ike & Harry Hopkins.

There has to be a guy who can speak the language of that elite player - Scottie Pippen was the only guy in the NBA who had a chance of shutting down Michael Jordan for any length of time.... Derek Fisher was the guy who had played madcap full-court rookie 1on1 against Kobe8... and they take that relationship and build it into the rest of the team.
Derek Fisher and Scottie Pippen... these are guys who knew how to translate Kobe's force, Michael's power, into something normal human players could understand

People say 'look how great Russell was, when he retired, the Celtics tanked.'
They don't know what happened.
Bill Russell unceremoniously dumped the Boston Celtics straight into the sewer by retiring unannounced. Celtics organization lost their center and coach 2 months before the season started. He left Red Auerbach holding the bag. Red had just spent his entire off-season getting JoJo White as a replacement for Sam Jones - who had formally announced that would be his last season. True leadership always shines.


And bottom line, no matter how great a player is, if he doesn't have that leader on his team, he will never, ever win anything. Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Shaq, all failed miserably until they got their "Robin."
And now we are seeing it again in Kobe Bryant.

This ain't that "glue that holds the team" crap. This is the true leadership quality, the quiet fire

I;m terrible about gifs otherwise I'd say this deserves a standing O one. The best player is automatically the leader crap is so over blown. Every pres needs a cheif of staff and that's what guys like Pippen and Fish did.