How much better would have the 02 Wizards been if ...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Michael Jordan wasn't ball hogging his way to a 36% usage rate on a .468 TS%

http://i.imgur.com/eLU9I.png

At least be beat out 19 year old Kwame Brown :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

the most inefficient chucker in NBA history?

http://i.imgur.com/17hkW.png

[28renyoy]

Just think how much better the 2004 Lakers would have been if Kobe weren't ball hogging his way to 32.65 USG% and 44.6 TS%

Or in 2008

32.55 USG% 47.1 TS%

[KG215]

Top four seed in the East for sure, maybe better. Even though he was nearly 40 years old playing himself into shape, Jordan sucked ass that year and was clearly holding them back.

[KG215]

Just think how much better the 2004 Lakers would have been if Kobe weren't ball hogging his way to 32.65 USG% and 44.6 TS%

Or in 2008

32.55 USG% 47.1 TS%
Where are you getting your TS% numbers? Kobe's TS% in 2004 was .551 and in 2008 it was .576.

[Micku]

Usage Pct doesn't mean how often you have the ball or ball hogging. It means how often the team runs their offense through you judging by FGA and team FGA. Obviously during that same year, Shaq had a higher Usage Pct than Kobe, but you can bet that Kobe had the ball more than Shaq.

And this year, Carmelo Anthony has the highest usage pct with 34.4, but obviously LeBron handles the ball a lot more even though his usage pct is a 29.8. And Melo isn't a ball hogger this as much.

And the Wiz would've been championship contender if Jordan wasn't on the team, obviously. Jordan shot them out of the playoffs. They were soo much better without him. Totally a winning record.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Top four seed in the East for sure, maybe better. Even though he was nearly 40 years old playing himself into shape, Jordan sucked ass that year and was clearly holding them back.

He began the season a well rested 38.255 years old. I hear he is an amazing leader and team player so I was just hoping he could have played some better team ball and perhaps pass some more to the more efficient players on the team.

[KG215]

He began the season a well rested 38.255 years old. I hear he is an amazing leader and team player so I was just hoping he could have played some better team ball and perhaps pass some more to the more efficient players on the team.
We get it. You think Jordan mythologists are full of shit. You think what you do is clever and subtle. It's not. You have one of the most obvious agendas on ISH.

[juju151111]

Michael Jordan wasn't ball hogging his way to a 36% usage rate on a .468 TS%

http://i.imgur.com/eLU9I.png

At least be beat out 19 year old Kwame Brown :facepalm
Its ok man. Your favorite player will never surpass Mj. Its kinda sad watching you guys scramble around because the truth hurts.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

We get it. You think Jordan mythologists are full of shit. You think what you do is clever and subtle. It's not. You have one of the most obvious agendas on ISH.

Who said I was trying to be subtle? :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Its ok man. Your favorite player will never surpass Mj. Its kinda sad watching you guys scramble around because the truth hurts.

Are you claiming that Kobe Bryant will never be able to surpass Michael Jordans 02 season as the most chucktastic in NBA history?

[juju151111]

Who said I was trying to be subtle? :confusedshrug:
Agreed, tell us how u really feel.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Agreed, tell us how u really feel.

I feel the same way I feel when I have to explain the science of evolution to creationists. I have empathy for the Jordan mythologists. They desperately cling to the mythology because it reminds them of their youth. You cant help but feel sorry for them.

[juju151111]

Are you claiming that Kobe Bryant will never be able to surpass Michael Jordans 02 season as the most chucktastic in NBA history?
Na, I'm claiming Kobe will never surpass Mj. He couldn't even beat out a 35 year old Mj with a crack knuckle and Pippen injured. Mj led his team to a 28-11 record in which rodman missed plenty of those games too. Sad really to see Chokebe fans act in this way.:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Na, I'm claiming Kobe will never surpass Mj. He couldn't even beat out a 35 year old Mj with a crack knuckle and Pippen injured. Mj led his team to a 28-11 record in which rodman missed plenty of those games too. Sad really to see Chokebe fans act in this way.:applause:

Pretty sure Kobe Bryant has the edge in cumulative regular season team records at this age if thats what is important nowdays. :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

I feel the same way I feel when I have to explain the science of evolution to creationists. I have empathy for the Jordan mythologists. They desperately cling to the mythology because it reminds them of their youth. You cant help but feel sorry for them.
I'm more sorry for the fans hanging from some bodies nuts so much they trick themselves into thinking that player is Godbe has u retarded fans say. Unsightly.

[juju151111]

Pretty sure Kobe Bryant has the edge in cumulative regular season team records at this age if thats what is important nowdays. :confusedshrug:
34 year old Kobe 9-14 with best center in the league and fully healthy. 35 year old Mj 28-11 with no 2nd best player and a crack knuckle. This really says something about chokebe

[KG215]

I'm still really not sure what the point of this thread is.

Knowing a 38-39 year old out of shape Jordan had an inefficient season isn't really something to hang your hat on when trying to dispute what you believe to be nonsense posted by Jordan mythologists.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm still really not sure what the point of this thread is.

Knowing a 38-39 year old out of shape Jordan had an inefficient season isn't really something to hang your hat on when trying to dispute what you believe to be nonsense posted by Jordan mythologists.

Not an inefficient season. The most inefficient/chucktastic season in modern NBA history. I just expected more from such a team player/amazing leader at such a wise age. :confusedshrug:

[andremiller07]

There is a large surplus of pointless and silly threads on this forum

[juju151111]

Not an inefficient season. The most inefficient/chucktastic season in modern NBA history. I just expected more from such a team player/amazing leader at such a wise age. :confusedshrug:
Let's wait and see bean at 39 and just 3 years earlier that sane guy won Mvp. He led his team after his 2nd best player went out to a 28-11 record. He didn't go 9-14 :applause:

[KG215]

Not an inefficient season. The most inefficient/chucktastic season in modern NBA history. I just expected more from such a team player/amazing leader at such a wise age. :confusedshrug:
Who the hell cares what he did that season at his age? Should that negate what he did in his years with the Bulls? Are people even using his Wizards years to argue how great of a leader he was?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Who the hell cares what he did that season at his age? Should that negate what he did in his years with the Bulls? Are people even using his Wizards years to argue how great of a leader he was?

Why wouldn't we consider his Wizards years? Leadership shouldn't fade like athleticism.

[KG215]

I've got to stop getting sucked in by your stupid bait threads.

[juju151111]

Why wouldn't we consider his Wizards years? Leadership shouldn't fade like athleticism.
It never faded. Even tho Mj was playing with tendinitis that season the Wizards were on pace to make the playoffs before Mj got injured mid season.

[scandisk_]

MJ could return @50 chuck all he want, alienate a team, kick his coaches out and the world would still kiss his feet.

:lol :lol :lol

[Cali Syndicate]

Wizards were on track for a playoff berth prior to MJ jacking up his knee and missing the last 22 games. Not bad for a team that won 19 games the previous season. Just sayin'

But yeah MJ was a bit overzealous that season. After a 3 year hiatus, MJ should have been more of a complementary player than the team's star player.

[28renyoy]

Where are you getting your TS% numbers? Kobe's TS% in 2004 was .551 and in 2008 it was .576.

It was his Finals stats

[sekachu]

Not an inefficient season. The most inefficient/chucktastic season in modern NBA history. I just expected more from such a team player/amazing leader at such a wise age. :confusedshrug:





Are you considering 02 wizard was a decent team????

[KOBE143]

Jordan overrated ass got exposed again.. :lol

[ILLsmak]

Are you considering 02 wizard was a decent team????

Yea, that's what baffles me. We're talking about a team that was one of the worst in the NBA. Look at that roster.

Jordan led them in scoring and assists. His assists were FIVE. In the games he played, they were 30-30, that's pretty amazing. I used to hate on MJ because I was from Illinois and got tired of listening to people suck his dick. Now that I'm "mature" I realize that he was even good on the Wizards. Shit like % doesn't matter if you are getting wins with a terrible team. And that team was extra terrible.

-Smak

[Sakkreth]

Op is Kobe nut hugger who hates MJ and uses MJ's avy. That's just low.

[guy]

Pretty sure Kobe Bryant has the edge in cumulative regular season team records at this age if thats what is important nowdays. :confusedshrug:

Actually, do the math before you say something like that.

In his career, Jordan is 706-366 and through age 34, which would be the 97 season he was 577-271. Thats an average of 54.0 and 55.8 wins in an 82 game season in both cases.

Kobe is 780-406. Thats an average of 53.9 wins in an 82 game season.

So Jordan averages more wins. Thats incredibly telling cause in both cases (through 97 and for his whole career) Jordan has played on significantly more scrub teams while playing less seasons then Kobe. One easy explanation for that is that Jordan gets much more out of his teammates i.e. he is a much better leader.

[Bigsmoke]

that team just sucked

[PJR]

An idiotic thread created by an idiotic poster.

[kNicKz]

All star caliber players like Kwame Brown, Jared Jeffries, Chris Whitney, and Christian Laettner

:coleman:

[Boston C's]

Wasn't Jordans stats before he got injured comparable to kobe that yr :confusedshrug:

just sayin

[Clifton]

You're right. In light of this bullshit advanced statistic, we should have run the offense through Jahidi White.

I watched almost every game that team played. That Jordan would be a top 10 player today. And he was a model of efficiency. I don't know how often his shots went in (wouldn't be surprised if he shot 42% or so), but that doesn't matter. What matters is *actual* efficiency - not holding onto the ball too long, making good and quick decisions, not taking a lot of shots early in the shot clock that aren't likely to go in, etc.

[STATUTORY]

You're right. In light of this bullshit advanced statistic, we should have run the offense through Jahidi White.

I watched almost every game that team played. That Jordan would be a top 10 player today. And he was a model of efficiency. I don't know how often his shots went in (wouldn't be surprised if he shot 42% or so), but that doesn't matter. What matters is *actual* efficiency - not holding onto the ball too long, making good and quick decisions, not taking a lot of shots early in the shot clock that aren't likely to go in, etc.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
this guy typed dat shit with a straight face!

[Droid101]

Or in 2008

32.55 USG% 47.1 TS%
They made the NBA finals. What is wrong with you?

[Kblaze8855]

Well considering that they won 27 of his 53 starts that year and went like 10-19 otherwise....they probably win more if they had more of his ball hogging.

[AlphaWolf24]

Top four seed in the East for sure, maybe better. Even though he was nearly 40 years old playing himself into shape, Jordan sucked ass that year and was clearly holding them back.


02' Wizards..

Michael Jordan (38 1/2)
Brian Cardinal
Brendan Haywood
Jerry Stackhouse
Larry Hughes
Juan Dixon
Jared Jefferies
Charles Oakley
Christian laetneer
Byron Russell
Bobby Simmons
Etan Thomas
Kwame Brown

11' Mavs..

Dirk Nowitzki (33)
Brian Cardinal
Brendan Haywood
Jason terry (33)
Shawn merion
Jose Barea
Deshawn Stevenson
Tyson Chandler
Jason Kidd (38)
Peja Stojakavic
Rodrique Bleoivic
Corey Brewer
Sasha Pavlovic



maybe if they had Dirk.?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're right. In light of this bullshit advanced statistic, we should have run the offense through Jahidi White.

I watched almost every game that team played. That Jordan would be a top 10 player today. And he was a model of efficiency. I don't know how often his shots went in (wouldn't be surprised if he shot 42% or so), but that doesn't matter. What matters is *actual* efficiency - not holding onto the ball too long, making good and quick decisions, not taking a lot of shots early in the shot clock that aren't likely to go in, etc.

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm :oldlol:

[KG215]

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm :oldlol:
So predictable. And brilliant rebuttal.

[juju151111]

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm :oldlol:
How do you explain Wizards in the playoffs that year before he got injured and played worse with him out? He a chucker right that should of freed up the Wizards.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So predictable. And brilliant rebuttal.

What is there to rebut? The poster has imagined a world where "actual efficiency" flies in the face of reality. I don't debate people in mental wards either.

[KingBeasley08]

OP needs to get laid, using stats like some 4'10 ass nerd :lol

jordan > kobe, get over it

[Clifton]

02' Wizards..

Michael Jordan (38 1/2)
Brian Cardinal
Brendan Haywood
Jerry Stackhouse
Larry Hughes
Juan Dixon
Jared Jefferies
Charles Oakley
Christian laetneer
Byron Russell
Bobby Simmons
Etan Thomas
Kwame Brown

11' Mavs..

Dirk Nowitzki (33)
Brian Cardinal
Brendan Haywood
Jason terry (33)
Shawn merion
Jose Barea
Deshawn Stevenson
Tyson Chandler
Jason Kidd (38)
Peja Stojakavic
Rodrique Bleoivic
Corey Brewer
Sasha Pavlovic
The mainstays of that Wizards team, besides MJ, were Christian Laettner midrange jumpers off the pass, occasional Juan Dixon explosions, and the clumsy 20ppg off of free throws that Jerry Stackhouse would give you.

That Mavs team has 7 starter-quality players on it, plus Barea, Beaubois, and Haywood, who are all good 8-10th men.

But, yes, they both have Brian Cardinal on them, as well as Haywood at totally different points in his career, so I guess they're the same team.


Jordan mythologists...
I was 10 years old when MJ retired from the Bulls. I have no special attachment to him as the GOAT. I grew up a very critical Wizards fan, and MJ would consistently be the only one whom I couldn't complain about.

Side note... Laettner on that Wizards team is underrated. That guy was cool. He knew how to step on the court and contribute something. He was the only Wizard that year who wasn't an unproductive moron more often than not.

MJ's Wizards supporting casts truly do belong to the class of terrible supporting casts that Tmac and Kobe had in the early and mid-00s.

[Clifton]

The poster has imagined a world where "actual efficiency" flies in the face of reality.
You live in a world where numbers are more real than reality. Where the number three is more real than the three total YouTube clips you have ever seen of MJ as a Wizard.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You live in a world where numbers are more real than reality. Where the number three is more real than the three total YouTube clips you have ever seen of MJ as a Wizard.

He was literally the most inefficient volume shooter in the last 60+ years (at least) of NBA history. :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

He was literally the most inefficient volume shooter in the last 60+ years (at least) of NBA history. :confusedshrug:
So why was his team losing without him and was playoff bound before his injury. Sit down young one. 38 year old with sergery ridden knees. 11-14 compares to 28-11:applause:

[Money 23]

So why was his team losing without him and was playoff bound before his injury. Sit down young one. 38 year old with sergery ridden knees. 11-14 compares to 28-11:applause:
What over the hill 39 year old MJ did with those atrocious Wizards is ridiculous.

His next best player was what ... rookie or sophomore Richard Hamilton? Tyrone Lue? Popeye Jones? Jahidi White? Tyronne Nesby? :oldlol:

He eclipsed their seasons previous win total by like 10 games at about mid way through the season before his knee ballooned up and failed him.

Meanwhile 34 year old Kobe is struggling w/ young, prime 27 year old Dwight Howard to even reach .500

:biggums:

[Rake2204]

02' Wizards..

Michael Jordan (38 1/2)
Brian Cardinal
Brendan Haywood
Jerry Stackhouse
Larry Hughes
Juan Dixon
Jared Jefferies
Charles Oakley
Christian laetneer
Byron Russell
Bobby Simmons
Etan Thomas
Kwame Brown

11' Mavs..

Dirk Nowitzki (33)
Brian Cardinal
Brendan Haywood
Jason terry (33)
Shawn merion
Jose Barea
Deshawn Stevenson
Tyson Chandler
Jason Kidd (38)
Peja Stojakavic
Rodrique Bleoivic
Corey Brewer
Sasha Pavlovic



maybe if they had Dirk.?Simply for the sake of accuracy, the roster listed above is actually the '03 Wizards team, when Jordan was 39 1/2. The '02 team was similar, with the key differences being the presence of a 43% shooting Richard Hamilton in place of Jerry Stackhouse (they were traded for one another in the '02 offseason) and Popeye Jones starting nearly half of those '02 ballgames. Also, Juan Dixon, Larry Hughes, Charles Oakley, and Jared Jefferies all were not a part of the '02 team (amongst others).

In full, the '02 team looked like this (in order of leading scoring average):

Michael Jordan
Richard Hamilton
Chris Whitney
Courtney Alexander
Tyronn Lue
Hubert Davis
Christian Laettner
Popeye Jones
Tyrone Nesby
Jahidi White
Brendan Haywood
Kwame Brown
Etan Thomas
Bobby Simmons

The only two players from this team to play in more than 71 games that year were Chris Whitney and Popeye Jones, so it was often a hodgepodge of different players out there throughout the season.

Again, not trying to make any sort of point. Just clarifying the roster.

[AlphaWolf24]

He was literally the most inefficient volume shooter in the last 60+ years (at least) of NBA history. :confusedshrug:


42%FG:banana: :banana: :banana:

[I<3NBA]

fk you.

[Clifton]

He was literally the most inefficient volume shooter in the last 60+ years (at least) of NBA history.
No, you are.


The only two players from this team to play in more than 71 games that year were Chris Whitney and Popeye Jones,
Wow. Not only were they terrible, they weren't even healthy.

(Popeye Jones was another guy I liked.)

[sekachu]

Yea, that's what baffles me. We're talking about a team that was one of the worst in the NBA. Look at that roster.

Jordan led them in scoring and assists. His assists were FIVE. In the games he played, they were 30-30, that's pretty amazing. I used to hate on MJ because I was from Illinois and got tired of listening to people suck his dick. Now that I'm "mature" I realize that he was even good on the Wizards. Shit like % doesn't matter if you are getting wins with a terrible team. And that team was extra terrible.

-Smak


If MJ wasn't injuried and missing more than 10 games, they probably made the playoff.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The '02 Wizards with Jordan at the helm were at 26-21 and in the 6th seed in the East before MJ hurt his knee and had to sit out a month. They were on pace for 43-46 wins after having won just 19 games the season before, which would have been a +24-27 game improvement despite losing 3 of their top 6 players from the year prior (would have been one of the largest improvements in league history, and this is with a 39 year old Jordan, not prime Jordan). Jordan was averaging 25/6/6 (one of only 2 players to do so) and was an MVP candidate.

So your complaints are ultimately irrelevant.

[Figlo]

another Kobe-d*ck sucker troll, dude your favorite player will never be better than MJ. Mods close this thread already.

[KOBE143]

Is it just me or it just a coincidence that Jordan having the most inefficient season and for being one of the most inefficient volume scorer of all times happened in the toughest best defensive era compared to his bulls days in the late 80s and early 90s where most of the player didn't focus on defense and sometimes doesn't play defense at all? I think its kinda related to era that MJ became inefficient volume scorer.. The tougher the era became the harder for him to score efficiently.. Now I thinking if Prime Jordan can really play in today's league.. Will he still be the same player or will just be another scrub heating the bench? just askin :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The '02 Wizards with Jordan at the helm were at 26-21 and in the 6th seed in the East before MJ hurt his knee and had to sit out a month. They were on pace for 43-46 wins after having won just 19 games the season before, which would have been a +24-27 game improvement despite losing 3 of their top 6 players from the year prior (would have been one of the largest improvements in league history, and this is with a 39 year old Jordan, not prime Jordan). Jordan was averaging 25/6/6 (one of only 2 players to do so) and was an MVP candidate.

So your complaints are ultimately irrelevant.

"MVP candidate" :roll:

Instead of just accepting the undeniable truth that 02 Jordan was the most inefficient chucker in league history Jordan mythologists would rather pretend its cool to do so as long as you play at 43 win pace. For some reason I highly doubt they were singing the same turn when the kid out of Georgetown was breaking ankles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VHT1bA40X0

How do you expect us to worship his videogame stats against weak defenses earlier in his career if you won't even criticize his terrible numbers in 2002? If the stats don't matter in 2002, then they don't matter pre 2002 either. Embrace what he was. The most inefficient volume shooter in league history who played that way because his mythologists lived to see it. The nightly Jordan brick show sold tickets. He could stick on a uniform right now and his sycophants would delude themselves into believing he was a deserving all star. "actually efficient" "top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate".

[chazzy]

I forgot how low his TS% was that year.. jesus :oldlol: You can't really take much away from those 2 seasons though. I just look at it as a little bonus after we thought he was gone for good. It was cool when he had those throwback games using only his skillset and savvy to put up numbers despite his physical limitations.

[Rysio]

and people compare this guy to mamba? kobe would never put up garbage stats like that in his 14-15th season.

[sekachu]

and people compare this guy to mamba? kobe would never put up garbage stats like that in his 14-15th season.



kobe was 43% last year in spite of isn't playing with scrub team like MJ. :facepalm

[nightprowler10]

This troll thread is still going? :oldlol:

[Clifton]

I think it would be funny to compare the similar team success that 40 year old Jordan had with Jerry Stackhouse and Etan Thomas that 34(?) year old Kobe Bryant is doing with Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard.

[qrich]

Wonder if MJ would ever be 11-14 with someone like Dwight on his team, let alone Pau as well for a part of that stretch?

[Boston C's]

"MVP candidate" :roll:

Instead of just accepting the undeniable truth that 02 Jordan was the most inefficient chucker in league history Jordan mythologists would rather pretend its cool to do so as long as you play at 43 win pace. For some reason I highly doubt they were singing the same turn when the kid out of Georgetown was breaking ankles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VHT1bA40X0

How do you expect us to worship his videogame stats against weak defenses earlier in his career if you won't even criticize his terrible numbers in 2002? If the stats don't matter in 2002, then they don't matter pre 2002 either. Embrace what he was. The most inefficient volume shooter in league history who played that way because his mythologists lived to see it. The nightly Jordan brick show sold tickets. He could stick on a uniform right now and his sycophants would delude themselves into believing he was a deserving all star. "actually efficient" "top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate".

You cant actually be this stupid can you... the most innefficient volume shooter in league history is a career 50 percent shooter...i have no idea how that is innefficient to you let alone most inneficient shooter in history :facepalm

btw look at his stats before he got hurt... 25/6/6 and this is from a freakin 40 yr old man but yet you seem to claim that he cant hack it in this era when he proved he could as a 40 yr old man...im sure a prime jordan would regress from his 40 yr old self

his numbers in 2002 were terrible alright :lol once more 40 YR OLD JORDAN
and you can be delusional all you want but the man was freakin DOMINATING his first yr with the wizards you need to get real

[Money 23]

Wonder if MJ would ever be 11-14 with someone like Dwight on his team, let alone Pau as well for a part of that stretch?
Well, he was better than that with Jahidi White, Tyrone Nesby and Popeye Jones being the front court rotation.

:oldlol:

[Leviathon1121]

Kobe Bryant leading his team to sub .500 records with the best center in the league simply means Jordan will need to be diminished more by people like yao mings foot. Get ready for an entire season and summer of it, because the Lakers can barely beat the Bobcats in LA.

[Nevaeh]

Kobe Bryant leading his team to sub .500 records with the best center in the league simply means Jordan will need to be diminished more by people like yao mings foot. Get ready for an entire season and summer of it, because the Lakers can barely beat the Bobcats in LA.

The sad part is he has to target a single Washington Wizards season in order to try and bring down an entire NBA career. "Most Inefficient Chucker in history". Dat N!gga Crazy.........

:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm

[OldSchoolBBall]

All that "ballhogging" and they were at 26-21 before Jordan hurt his knee and had to sit out for a month, and were in the 6th seed in the East, on pace for 42-44 wins, which would have been a 23-25 game improvement from the previous season. As it is, even with him missing a month and being largely ineffective after he returned from the injury, they still won 17 more games than the year before.

Nice try, though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All that "ballhogging" and they were at 26-21 before Jordan hurt his knee and had to sit out for a month, and were in the 6th seed in the East, on pace for 42-44 wins, which would have been a 23-25 game improvement from the previous season. As it is, even with him missing a month and being largely ineffective after he returned from the injury, they still won 17 more games than the year before.

Nice try, though.

http://i.imgur.com/iEit2e5.png

:oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't understand the point OP is attempting to make. Michael Jordan sucks?

[DonDadda59]

Take a 38-39 year old hobbled Jordan off the team and they're the '01 Wizards :oldlol:

And like Old School pointed out above, they had a winning record and were on pace for 42-44 wins and a playoff berth before Jordan went down with knee injuries.

OP salty as phuck, hating on senior citizens :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Take a 38-39 year old hobbled Jordan off the team and they're the '01 Wizards :oldlol:

And like Old School pointed out above, they had a winning record and were on pace for 42-44 wins and a playoff berth before Jordan went down with knee injuries.

OP salty as phuck, hating on senior citizens :facepalm

http://i.imgur.com/iEit2e5.png

:confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

Both MJ and Kobe were fairly inefficient chuckers

None of them could dream of shooting 65% TS like LeBron


/thread

[DonDadda59]

I don't understand the point OP is attempting to make. Michael Jordan sucks?

Your guess is as good as anyone else's. Looks like now he's arguing Chris Whitney and Jahidi White>Jordan? :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Your guess is as good as anyone else's. Looks like now he's arguing Chris Whitney and Jahidi White>Jordan? :confusedshrug:
Oh ok ...

:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Your guess is as good as anyone else's. Looks like now he's arguing Chris Whitney and Jahidi White>Jordan? :confusedshrug:

Just seeing if the mythology matches the reality. Takes some serious delusions to credit the man with the 11th best win shares per minute rate on his own team for team wins, but that hasn't slowed down Jordan mythologists before. :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Look at the Wizards attendance the season before MJ signed on and the season directly after he retired.

2000-01 41 638,653 avg. 15,577
2001-02 41 847,634 avg. 20,674
2002-03 41 827,092 avg. 20,172
2003-04 41 645,363 avg. 15,740

The 5,000 extra paying fans for 2yrs in row weren't coming to see Tyrone Nesby jack up shots and certainly didn't pay to see MJ be a decoy.

[DonDadda59]

Just seeing if the mythology matches the reality. Takes some serious delusions to credit the man with the 11th best win shares per minute rate on his own team for team wins, but that hasn't slowed down Jordan mythologists before. :confusedshrug:

You ever think that maybe you're too deep into the advanced stats craze? I know you live and die by DRTG (except when it shows that the 60s-70s were BY FAR the best defensive era ever, by far). But are you seriously trying to argue that Jahidi White was more important to the Wizards improvement than old man Jordan?

Are you seriously sitting there trying to argue this?


Look at the Wizards attendance the season before MJ signed on and the season directly after he retired.

2000-01 41 638,653 avg. 15,577
2001-02 41 847,634 avg. 20,674
2002-03 41 827,092 avg. 20,172
2003-04 41 645,363 avg. 15,740

The 5,000 extra paying fans for 2yrs in row weren't coming to see Tyrone Nesby jack up shots and certainly didn't pay to see MJ be a decoy.

What does PC/S/48% (Paying customer per seat per 48 minutes) say about this? There's your answer.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Look at the Wizards attendance the season before MJ signed on and the season directly after he retired.

2000-01 41 638,653 avg. 15,577
2001-02 41 847,634 avg. 20,674
2002-03 41 827,092 avg. 20,172
2003-04 41 645,363 avg. 15,740

The 5,000 extra paying fans for 2yrs in row weren't coming to see Tyrone Nesby jack up shots and certainly didn't pay to see MJ be a decoy.



How do you expect us to worship his videogame stats against weak defenses earlier in his career if you won't even criticize his terrible numbers in 2002? If the stats don't matter in 2002, then they don't matter pre 2002 either. Embrace what he was. The most inefficient volume shooter in league history who played that way because his mythologists lived to see it. The nightly Jordan brick show sold tickets. He could stick on a uniform right now and his sycophants would delude themselves into believing he was a deserving all star. "actually efficient" "top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate".

yep

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You ever think that maybe you're too deep into the advanced stats craze? I know you live and die by DRTG (except when it shows that the 60s-70s were BY FAR the best defensive era ever, by far). But are you seriously trying to argue that Jahidi White was more important to the Wizards improvement than old man Jordan?

Are you seriously sitting there trying to argue this?

No I'm arguing that if it was true Jordan was the reason for their improved record he wouldn't have the 11th best win shares per minute rate on his team.

Pretend we are not talking about your man crush. What is controversial about that exactly?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Still not understanding what YMF is trying to say with his agenda?

[DonDadda59]

No I'm arguing that if it was true Jordan was the reason for their improved record he wouldn't have the 11th best win shares per minute rate on his team.

Pretend we are not talking about your man crush. What is controversial about that exactly?

The fact that this is the first time I've ever seen anyone use best win shares per minute rate to argue anything :oldlol:

But since we're on the topic....

2008-2009 Lakers
Pau Gasol - .233 WS/48
Kobe Bryant- .206 WS/48

2009-2010 Lakers
Pau Gasol- .220 WS/48
Kobe Bryant- .160

Apparently Pau Gasol was the main reason the Lakers won their championships post Shaq and was the team's best player? Looks like in 2010 he was far more important than Bean too. Well hot damn, advanced stats FTW! :bowdown:

So again, I ask you... do you seriously think that Jahidi White and Chris Whitney were more integral to the Wizards improvement than old Man Jordan?

[DonDadda59]

Still not understanding what YMF is trying to say with his agenda?

Apparently he's trying to show us how advanced stats say Pau Gasol was the best and most important player on the Lakers during the Lakers championship runs :roll:

[DMAVS41]

No I'm arguing that if it was true Jordan was the reason for their improved record he wouldn't have the 11th best win shares per minute rate on his team.

Pretend we are not talking about your man crush. What is controversial about that exactly?

Be careful about the per minute argument. Jordan was playing a lot more minutes than most of the other guys outside of Rip...and he was basically doing everything on offense for a team that had very little talent.

Why are you only looking at win shares?

What about PER? MJ led that team in PER by a huge margin. He was at 20.7 and the next best was at 16.9.

Also, have you ever thought that perhaps MJ made the game easier on his teammates and that helped them play better and put up better stats? Has that ever crossed your mind? I mean...you act like other defenses didn't focus on MJ pretty much exclusively.

And it was back when the defense in the league was twice as good as it is now.

Your boy Kobe, for example, shot 51% TS in the playoffs that year and had a 20.5 PER. MJ was playing with scrubs...Kobe had the best player in the league.

Not surprised at all that even MJ would struggle to score efficiently in a tough defensive era at age 38 while playing on a team that won 19 games the year before.

Also, pretty sure Horry beats Kobe in win shares per minute in the 02 playoffs. Are you willing to call Horry a better player than Kobe there? How about Gasol...an even better example. He beat Kobe in win shares per minute in the title runs irrc. Do you concede that Gasol was a better player?

[navy]

The fact that this is the first time I've ever seen anyone use best win shares per minute rate to argue anything :oldlol:

But since we're on the topic....

2008-2009 Lakers
Pau Gasol - .233 WS/48
Kobe Bryant- .206 WS/48

2009-2010 Lakers
Pau Gasol- .220 WS/48
Kobe Bryant- .160

Apparently Pau Gasol was the main reason the Lakers won their championships post Shaq and was the team's best player? Looks like in 2010 he was far more important than Bean too. Well hot damn, advanced stats FTW! :bowdown:

So again, I ask you... do you seriously think that Jahidi White and Chris Whitney were more integral to the Wizards improvement than old Man Jordan?

Agendas aside, Pau Gasol is criminally underrated. :bowdown:

[Hey Yo]

How do you expect us to worship his videogame stats against weak defenses earlier in his career if you won't even criticize his terrible numbers in 2002? If the stats don't matter in 2002, then they don't matter pre 2002 either. Embrace what he was. The most inefficient volume shooter in league history who played that way because his mythologists lived to see it. The nightly Jordan brick show sold tickets. He could stick on a uniform right now and his sycophants would delude themselves into believing he was a deserving all star. "actually efficient" "top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate".
What year was that quote from?

Washington had made the playoffs once (96-97) since the 87-88 season, when MJ signed. He gave Washington fans and non fans a reason to come to the games despite knowing he was well past his prime.

Even when the Wiz was making the playoffs a short while later 4 years in a row, they still drew less fans than when MJ was there.

Think it's safe to say that when MJ was there, nobody expected a miracle, they wanted to see an icon play the game with whatever left he had in the tank.

[DonDadda59]

I guess Kobe really was a sidekick for all of his rings.

Pippen>Kobe
6>5

:applause:

6 sidekick rings>5 sidekick rings.

http://lowbrowsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/numbers-never-lie.jpg

[OldSchoolBBall]

"MVP candidate" :roll:

Instead of just accepting the undeniable truth that 02 Jordan was the most inefficient chucker in league history Jordan mythologists would rather pretend its cool to do so as long as you play at 43 win pace. For some reason I highly doubt they were singing the same turn when the kid out of Georgetown was breaking ankles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VHT1bA40X0

How do you expect us to worship his videogame stats against weak defenses earlier in his career if you won't even criticize his terrible numbers in 2002? If the stats don't matter in 2002, then they don't matter pre 2002 either. Embrace what he was. The most inefficient volume shooter in league history who played that way because his mythologists lived to see it. The nightly Jordan brick show sold tickets. He could stick on a uniform right now and his sycophants would delude themselves into believing he was a deserving all star. "actually efficient" "top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate".

I like how you didn't rebut a damn thing I said. The ether was too strong. Results don't lie, and these were the results:


All that "ballhogging" and they were at 26-21 before Jordan hurt his knee and had to sit out for a month, and were in the 6th seed in the East, on pace for 42-44 wins, which would have been a 23-25 game improvement from the previous season. As it is, even with him missing a month and being largely ineffective after he returned from the injury, they still won 17 more games than the year before.

Nice try, though.

[DMAVS41]

FYI

Kobe has outright led his team in playoff winshares per 48 in one year of his career...in 07.

He tied with Shaq in 01.

LOL

[DonDadda59]

FYI

Kobe has outright led his team in playoff winshares per 48 in one year of his career...in 07.

He tied with Shaq in 01.

LOL

http://millennialmedical.com/media/igallery/2/3/2365254505_9ef85e9ee0_o.jpg

Back to the advanced stats drawing board, Yao. Can't wait to see what you come up with next to prove how terribly overrated Bean is :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

http://millennialmedical.com/media/igallery/2/3/2365254505_9ef85e9ee0_o.jpg

Back to the advanced stats drawing board, Yao. Can't wait to see what you come up with next to prove how terribly overrated Bean is :cheers:

It's hilarious how he is focusing on a per minute stat and comparing players that play 35 minutes to less than 20.

He never learned about context or anything like that.

And I love how he ignores that MJ had by far the best PER on that team. A much better metric than ws/48 in my opinion.

[navy]

FYI

Kobe has outright led his team in playoff winshares per 48 in one year of his career...in 07.

He tied with Shaq in 01.

LOL
:biggums:

This cant be right. 05-07, 10-13 who led the teams?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums:

This cant be right. 05-07, 10-13 who led the teams?

It's not.

Kobe led the Lakers in playoff winshares from 06-09.

NVM, he's talking about shares per 48. Kobe led the Lakers in winshares per 48 in 2007, 2008 and 2009.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The fact that this is the first time I've ever seen anyone use best win shares per minute rate to argue anything :oldlol:

But since we're on the topic....

2008-2009 Lakers
Pau Gasol - .233 WS/48
Kobe Bryant- .206 WS/48

2009-2010 Lakers
Pau Gasol- .220 WS/48
Kobe Bryant- .160

Apparently Pau Gasol was the main reason the Lakers won their championships post Shaq and was the team's best player? Looks like in 2010 he was far more important than Bean too. Well hot damn, advanced stats FTW! :bowdown:

So again, I ask you... do you seriously think that Jahidi White and Chris Whitney were more integral to the Wizards improvement than old Man Jordan?

The 2009 and 2010 Lakers are good case studies...

http://i.imgur.com/59fOCCR.png

http://i.imgur.com/ZRTnHNd.png

Notice how the stars like Kobe, Gasol and Bynum are near the top and the scrubs like Walton. Josh Powell and Michael Jordan are near the bottom.

You guys are like Mbenga fans claiming the reason why the Lakers won more games those years because he joined the squad.

:roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Be careful about the per minute argument. Jordan was playing a lot more minutes than most of the other guys outside of Rip...and he was basically doing everything on offense for a team that had very little talent.

Why are you only looking at win shares?

What about PER? MJ led that team in PER by a huge margin. He was at 20.7 and the next best was at 16.9.

Also, have you ever thought that perhaps MJ made the game easier on his teammates and that helped them play better and put up better stats? Has that ever crossed your mind? I mean...you act like other defenses didn't focus on MJ pretty much exclusively.

And it was back when the defense in the league was twice as good as it is now.

Your boy Kobe, for example, shot 51% TS in the playoffs that year and had a 20.5 PER. MJ was playing with scrubs...Kobe had the best player in the league.

Not surprised at all that even MJ would struggle to score efficiently in a tough defensive era at age 38 while playing on a team that won 19 games the year before.

Also, pretty sure Horry beats Kobe in win shares per minute in the 02 playoffs. Are you willing to call Horry a better player than Kobe there? How about Gasol...an even better example. He beat Kobe in win shares per minute in the title runs irrc. Do you concede that Gasol was a better player?


Why would I look at PER when it makes no attempt to attribute wins to players. I used win shares per minute because the mythologists were clamoring on about some pace that the team was on before Jordan was injured and missed some games. I was doing him a favor by not punishing him for getting injured. :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

The 2009 and 2010 Lakers are good case studies...

http://i.imgur.com/59fOCCR.png

http://i.imgur.com/ZRTnHNd.png

Notice how the stars like Kobe, Gasol and Bynum are near the top and the scrubs like Walton. Josh Powell and Michael Jordan are near the bottom.

You guys are like Mbenga fans claiming the reason why the Lakers won more games those years because he joined the squad.

:roll:

Can't argue with #s. Pau Gasol was the best and most important player on the Lakers during their championships. #SideKickBeReturns #TellMeHowMyAssTaste :applause:

[DMAVS41]

It's not.

Kobe led the Lakers in playoff winshares from 06-09.

NVM, he's talking about shares per 48. Kobe led the Lakers in winshares per 48 in 2007, 2008 and 2009.

Kobe didn't lead the Lakers in ws/48 in the playoffs in 06, 08, or 09....

[DMAVS41]

The 2009 and 2010 Lakers are good case studies...

http://i.imgur.com/59fOCCR.png

http://i.imgur.com/ZRTnHNd.png

Notice how the stars like Kobe, Gasol and Bynum are near the top and the scrubs like Walton. Josh Powell and Michael Jordan are near the bottom.

You guys are like Mbenga fans claiming the reason why the Lakers won more games those years because he joined the squad.

:roll:

LOL...under that thinking...you get into dangerous areas.

Kobe was middle of the pack in win shares per minute in the 06 playoffs.

[Hey Yo]

Wasn't this the premise of the thread:


How much better would have the 02 Wizards been if Michael Jordan wasn't ball hogging his way to a 36% usage rate on a .468 TS%

That question has been answered.

It wasn't about how much better they would have been, it was about what the fans and extra 5,000 fans wanted to see.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe didn't lead the Lakers in ws/48 in the playoffs in 06, 08, or 09....

In 09? He definitely did.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html

In 08, Kobe Karl led the team only playing ONE game. Otherwise, Kobe BRYANT led them in WS per 48.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL...under that thinking...you get into dangerous areas.

Kobe was middle of the pack in win shares per minute in the 06 playoffs.

http://i.imgur.com/gRCqvUd.png

:confusedshrug:

[navy]

In 09? He definitely did.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html

In 08, Kobe Karl led the team only playing ONE game. Otherwise, Kobe BRYANT led them in WS per 48.
That says Pau Gasol was the leader

Edit, nevermind we are talking about the postseason.

[DMAVS41]

In 09? He definitely did.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html

In 08, Kobe Karl led the team only playing ONE game. Otherwise, Kobe BRYANT led them in WS per 48.

My bad...meant 10.

[DMAVS41]

http://i.imgur.com/gRCqvUd.png

:confusedshrug:

Playoffs...:confusedshrug:

But on a serious note. Can you please just admit ws/48 isn't this end all be all measure you are trying to make it out to be?

I mean...Kobe is 47th all time in ws/48 in the playoffs

He's 32nd all time in the regular season.


I mean...if it matters a lot...then it matters a lot and you need to stay consistent.

[DatAsh]

One thing we need to consider is defense. 2003 Jordan was actually a better defender than prime 1991 Jordan.

2003 Jordan with basically no help at all lead the Wizards to a 104.1 Drtg.
1991 Jordan with Pippen and Grant could only manage a 105.2 Drtg.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

FYI

Kobe has outright led his team in playoff winshares per 48 in one year of his career...in 07.

He tied with Shaq in 01.

LOL

Tied with the greatest peak player of all time.

How humiliating.

What does Kobe being 1-3 on his alleged "stacked teams" over the course of 7 different Finals runs have to do with Michael Jordan being 11th on this squad of losers?

:facepalm

[Warfan]

One thing we need to consider is defense. 2003 Jordan was actually a better defender than prime 1991 Jordan.

2003 Jordan with basically no help at all lead the Wizards to a 104.1 Drtg.
1991 Jordan with Pippen and Grant could only manage a 105.2 Drtg.

Not sure if srs :coleman:

[navy]

Tied with the greatest peak player of all time.

How humiliating.

What does Kobe being 1-3 on his alleged "stacked teams" over the course of 7 different Finals runs have to do with Michael Jordan being 11th on this squad of losers?

:facepalm
One was in his prime the other was damn near 40 :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

One thing we need to consider is defense. 2003 Jordan was actually a better defender than prime 1991 Jordan.

2003 Jordan with basically no help at all lead the Wizards to a 104.1 Drtg.
1991 Jordan with Pippen and Grant could only manage a 105.2 Drtg.

http://zap2it.tmsimg.com/assets/p8733637_b_h3_ae.jpg

[DMAVS41]

Tied with the greatest peak player of all time.

How humiliating.

What does Kobe being 1-3 on his alleged "stacked teams" over the course of 7 different Finals runs have to do with Michael Jordan being 11th on this squad of losers?

:facepalm

He led them in 09 as well.

It has a lot to do with it if you think that is the best measure for impact.

That means that in the most important games of his career...Kobe was rarely the most impactful player on his own team under your own criteria.

And I posted his career rankings as well. His ws/48 for playoffs and regular season doesn't even put him top 30 all time...

Just not sure you want to go down that road because of the conclusions you must draw if you do.

Somehow I doubt you rank Dirk over Kobe because Dirk is 15th in ws/48 in the regular season while Kobe is 34th...and Dirk is 9th in playoff ws/48 while Kobe is 47th.

Does that mean Dirk was/is better than Kobe? If not, why does it matter so much with Jordan and not with Kobe?

[ralph_i_el]

He led them in 09 as well.

It has a lot to do with it if you think that is the best measure for impact.

That means that in the most important games of his career...Kobe was rarely the most impactful player on his own team under your own criteria.

And I posted his career rankings as well. His ws/48 for playoffs and regular season doesn't even put him top 30 all time...

Just not sure you want to go down that road because of the conclusions you must draw if you do.

Somehow I doubt you rank Dirk over Kobe because Dirk is 15th in ws/48 in the regular season while Kobe is 34th...and Dirk is 9th in playoff ws/48 while Kobe is 47th.

Does that mean Dirk was/is better than Kobe? If not, why does it matter so much with Jordan and not with Kobe?
But Dirk WAS better than Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

But Dirk WAS better than Kobe.

My personal opinion aside, I'm wondering if "he" will concede that and stay consistent.

Considering I know he thinks Kobe was better...I'm curious as to how he can hold ws/48 in such high regard and think that.

Not consistent at all...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He led them in 09 as well.

It has a lot to do with it if you think that is the best measure for impact.

That means that in the most important games of his career...Kobe was rarely the most impactful player on his own team under your own criteria.

And I posted his career rankings as well. His ws/48 for playoffs and regular season doesn't even put him top 30 all time...

Just not sure you want to go down that road because of the conclusions you must draw if you do.

This is the argument I made... try to pay attention:

If Michael Jordan was the reason why the Wizards won as many games as they did he wouldn't be ranked 11th on his team in win shares per minute.

Was Jordan top 3 on Wizards? Top 5? Top 8? Top 10? Wouldn't we expect him to be given that he was the reason for their success?

Your strawman arguments are irrelevant.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

My personal opinion aside, I'm wondering if "he" will concede that and stay consistent.

Considering I know he thinks Kobe was better...I'm curious as to how he can hold ws/48 in such high regard and think that.

Not consistent at all...

Were Dirk and Kobe ever teammates? Do you see me quoting win shares per minute numbers for anybody aside from teammates within that same season? :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

This is the argument I made... try to pay attention:

If Michael Jordan was the reason why the Wizards won as many games as they did he wouldn't be ranked 11th on his team in win shares per minute.

Was Jordan top 3 on Wizards? Top 5? Top 8? Top 10? Wouldn't we expect him to be given that he was the reason for their success?

Your strawman arguments are irrelevant.

And a continuation of that argument would be;

If Kobe was really a top 10 player of all time...he wouldn't be outside the top 30 in ws/48 for both the regular season and playoffs.

If ws/48 really is as illustrative of impact leading to wins as you claim...you just wouldn't see a top 10 player of all time so far back.

Not a strawman at all...you just don't like the conclusion based on your own criteria.

Also, back to MJ. You have to account for things like minutes played. You can't compare MJ to a player playing 16 minutes per game less....playing an entirely different role. It would be absurd...

[DMAVS41]

Were Dirk and Kobe ever teammates? Do you see me quoting win shares per minute numbers for anybody aside from teammates within that same season? :facepalm

It's the exact same thing. It's the same metric...the only difference with kobe and dirk is that it's a far more apples to apples comparison. they play a similar amount of minutes per game and both were the clear cut best player on their teams for many years of their careers...

when you say;
Was Jordan top 3 on Wizards? Top 5? Top 8? Top 10? Wouldn't we expect him to be given that he was the reason for their success?

The exact same thing can be said about Kobe;

Was kobe top 20? Top 30? Top 35? Wouldn't we expect him to be given he's a supposed top 10 player of all time?

:roll:


Could you tell me who you think the best player on the 02 Wizards was...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And a continuation of that argument would be;

If Kobe was really a top 10 player of all time...he wouldn't be outside the top 30 in ws/48 for both the regular season and playoffs.

If ws/48 really is as illustrative of impact leading to wins as you claim...you just wouldn't see a top 10 player of all time so far back.

Not a strawman at all...you just don't like the conclusion based on your own criteria.

Also, back to MJ. You have to account for things like minutes played. You can't compare MJ to a player playing 16 minutes per game less....playing an entirely different role. It would be absurd...

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:


Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.



YMF has position that win shares per minutes is a good indicator of an individual impact on team success compared to his other teammates for that given season.

DMAVS41 presents position that if that is true career ranking legacies should be ranked by win shares per minute and only that (which is a distorted version of X).

DMAVS41 attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:




YMF has position that win shares per minutes is a good indicator of an individual impact on team success compared to his other teammates for that given season.

DMAVS41 presents position that if that is true career ranking legacies should be ranked by win shares per minute and only that (which is a distorted version of X).

DMAVS41 attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

:confusedshrug:


You are conflating what a straw man means.

I'm asking you why ws/48 holds so much weight here and not in other places.

You responded with something about teammates...and I don't buy that. I'm rejecting that explanation because not only do I not think it holds any weight, but I don't think you do either. I think you pulled it out of your ass because you got stuck trying to defend a position you know you can't.

I don't really care much about MJ on the Wizards. I think it was obvious he was the best player on the team and have asked who you thought the best player was and you haven't answered.

But you don't get what a strawman is I guess. That isn't what is going on here.

I'm simply pointing out to you that under your own criteria of ws/48...Kobe has absolutely no case for top 10 all time. Because I know you place Kobe in the top 10 all time....I'm confused as to why ws/48 means so much for determining the best player on the Wizards, but not the best players of all time.

And what is worse, is that Kobe ranks where he does in a far more apples to apples comparison. You are comparing MJ against teammates that played far different roles...etc.

Kobe would be being compared to the mainstay championship first option type franchise guys that is far more apples to apples.

I'll ask again. Who was the best player on the 2002 Wizards?

As for directly attacking your initial position. I find PER better than ws/48...therefore I fundamentally reject that ws/48 displays the best player on a team.

[DMAVS41]

You create these arbitrary distinctions like comparing win shares is only allowed for teammates. But that isn't the case it all...in fact, I'd argue that comparing win shares for teammates is horrible because of the far different roles each player plays.

It's far better to compare the first options from teams to each other than comparing the first option to the 4th option on a single team.

That isn't a strawman...it's just pointing out your shit argument.

It's also not a strawman to point out why you can't stay consistent with your argument. It's not distorting your argument at all to carry it through. Clearly you think ws/48 is illustrative of impact.

And when you carry it through...you get conclusions that I know you are against. And pointing that out is not only not a strawman, but just sound logic, reasoning, and debate.

But you don't like that stuff...you just want to create some arbitrary rule about only comparing teammates, and then use only 1 thing...and then ignore all the consequences of aligning yourself to that mode of thinking.

And I'll keep asking...who was the best player on the Wizards in 02?

You have just come up with a shitty argument as usual...and now you are scrambling to come up with reasons why ws/48 really means everything here, but not much in other places.

Perhaps you are on to something though...perhaps ws/48 is a great measure and we should adjust are rankings of Kobe and others accordingly.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You are conflating what a straw man means.

I'm asking you why ws/48 holds so much weight here and not in other places.

You responded with something about teammates...and I don't buy that. I'm rejecting that explanation because not only do I not think it holds any weight, but I don't think you do either. I think you pulled it out of your ass because you got stuck trying to defend a position you know you can't.

I don't really care much about MJ on the Wizards. I think it was obvious he was the best player on the team and have asked who you thought the best player was and you haven't answered.

But you don't get what a strawman is I guess. That isn't what is going on here.

I'm simply pointing out to you that under your own criteria of ws/48...Kobe has absolutely no case for top 10 all time. Because I know you place Kobe in the top 10 all time....I'm confused as to why ws/48 means so much for determining the best player on the Wizards, but not the best players of all time.

And what is worse, is that Kobe ranks where he does in a far more apples to apples comparison. You are comparing MJ against teammates that played far different roles...etc.

Kobe would be being compared to the mainstay championship first option type franchise guys that is far more apples to apples.

I'll ask again. Who was the best player on the 2002 Wizards?

As for directly attacking your initial position. I find PER better than ws/48...therefore I fundamentally reject that ws/48 displays the best player on a team.

It's not very complicated:

Win shares per minute hold weight in any scenario in which the merit of a player contribution to winning (compared to his teammates) in a given season is being investigated.

Win shares per minute doesn't hold much weight in a comparison of career legacies because they are much more applicable stats to keep track of. Such as rings, all league awards, all defensive team awards, all star appearances and so on. But if you want to use it. Be my guest. Just realize it has nothing to do with the first scenario. :confusedshrug:

[Droid101]

DMavs has never been an honest debater. He's pretty bad at presenting facts and such... usually just throws out Strawmen or moves the goalposts when he doesn't have an actual rebuttal. No reason to argue with him for the most part; he's almost always wrong.

[3ball]

Michael Jordan wasn't ball hogging his way to a 36% usage rate on a .468 TS%

Do you realize that the Wizards won 18 more games WITH Jordan (37) than without (19).

How many more wins (than 18) did you expect a 39-year old Jordan to add?

Jordan still had a higher PER than most players could ever get (22.9).

No one got on Lebron for shooting the same TS% his rookie year - only Jordan, because it's the only thing people can find to knock him, whereas with Lebron, there's like 80 things.

[Crystallas]

How old was OP during the 2002 season? I ask seriously, because that matters a great deal. From the use of stats and posting style, I would guess 19-23 range. Meaning the op had no way of understanding what surrounded the 2001-02 Wizards season, and unfortunately, never will.

[Simple Jack]

Win shares per minute hold weight in any scenario in which the merit of a player contribution to winning (compared to his teammates) in a given season is being investigated.

What's the threshold? How big does the sample have to be when comparing players on the same team? Didn't someone just post the graphic for Gasol having a better WS/48 than Kobe? Does that not imply he contributed more to wins than Kobe based on your criteria?

Relegating the game of basketball to something so simple is beyond stupid. It's become your MO. Between this and Drtg, you simplify the sport of basketball into something no one with any knowledge of the sport would ever seriously try to argue (at least in real life) with a straight face.

Are you not capable of forming a coherent argument based on, you know, actual basketball ability, without using these limited statistics and arbitrary parameters?

[ImKobe]

Na, I'm claiming Kobe will never surpass Mj. He couldn't even beat out a 35 year old Mj with a crack knuckle and Pippen injured. Mj led his team to a 28-11 record in which rodman missed plenty of those games too. Sad really to see Chokebe fans act in this way.:applause:

Kobe was nowhere near his peak then and MJ was still a great player.

We all saw what Kobe did to the Wizards in the early 2000s with MJ on em

in 2002 dropped 23/11/15 on em
in 2003 dropped 55 (42 in the first half) in his last game vs Jordan

Wizards MJ was about as good as the younger Kobe he faced when he still played on the Bulls.

[juju151111]

Kobe was nowhere near his peak then and MJ was still a great player.

We all saw what Kobe did to the Wizards in the early 2000s with MJ on em

in 2002 dropped 23/11/15 on em
in 2003 dropped 55 (42 in the first half) in his last game vs Jordan

Wizards MJ was about as good as the younger Kobe he faced when he still played on the Bulls.
Bro Kobe didn't drop one point on Mj that 50 point game. Mj was still playing injured at 38 years old and still was averaging more stls. Just imagine prime Mj would do if broke n down Mj can drop 40+ games on prime Shawn Marion

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What's the threshold? How big does the sample have to be when comparing players on the same team? Didn't someone just post the graphic for Gasol having a better WS/48 than Kobe? Does that not imply he contributed more to wins than Kobe based on your criteria?

Relegating the game of basketball to something so simple is beyond stupid. It's become your MO. Between this and Drtg, you simplify the sport of basketball into something no one with any knowledge of the sport would ever seriously try to argue (at least in real life) with a straight face.

Are you not capable of forming a coherent argument based on, you know, actual basketball ability, without using these limited statistics and arbitrary parameters?

My arguments are based 82 games worth of data. Your arguments are based on mythology and fairy tales.

Jordan wasn't merely tied for most impactful like Kobe vs prime Shaq he was 11th. There is some expected variance in these numbers, but 11th???

[hawkfan]

If they had drafted Gasol instead of Kwame, who knows?

[DMAVS41]

It's not very complicated:

Win shares per minute hold weight in any scenario in which the merit of a player contribution to winning (compared to his teammates) in a given season is being investigated.

Win shares per minute doesn't hold much weight in a comparison of career legacies because they are much more applicable stats to keep track of. Such as rings, all league awards, all defensive team awards, all star appearances and so on. But if you want to use it. Be my guest. Just realize it has nothing to do with the first scenario. :confusedshrug:

Why?

That makes no sense.

Win Shares per minute are a terrible measure between teammates because the role they play is so different. I mean...actually looking at total win shares makes more sense than looking at win shares per minute because at least that is taking into account a player playing more minutes.

You again are just coming up with something arbitrary. And it doesn't work at all.

You really think comparing the first option on offense that has a usage of 36%, plays 35 minutes per game, and is the teams first option....to a player that has a usage of 17.4%, plays 27 minutes a game, and is the teams third of 4th option...you really think that makes sense?

Sorry, it doesn't work at all. It's horrible.

When using stats...any stats...you want to compare like with like as much as possible.

Win shares per minute is no different. You'd want to compare players that play similar roles on their teams. So comparing first options that play between 36 and 40 minutes per game while leading their teams in usage and being the best player on said teams is a far better and more apt comparison.

Hence why I bring up Kobe. You can't go all in on win shares per minute here and ignore them when you don't like the conclusions...especially when comparing Kobe to the other elite players of all time is a far better use of the stat.

The accolades you speak of are highly subjective and far more out of the control of a single player than their actual play. Rings are almost entirely team dependent, all league awards such as mvp, all nba, and especially all defense have been flawed for years, all-star selections are a popularity contest that has very little to do with actual play...those metrics are truly terrible in comparison to objective data.

If win shares per minute is as indicative of impact towards wins...your ranking of Kobe makes absolutely no sense. You've buried your head in the sand as usual...along with making shit arguments you can't remain consistent on.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yeah, he was so "bad" that he led the team to a near record turnaround, and as it stands led them to a 18 games improvement over the previous season. Results don't lie:

All that "ballhogging" and they were at 26-21 before Jordan hurt his knee and had to sit out for a month, and were in the 6th seed in the East, on pace for 42-44 wins, which would have been a 23-25 game improvement from the previous season. As it is, even with him missing a month and being largely ineffective after he returned from the injury, they still won 18 more games than the year before.

Nice try, though.

[DMAVS41]

And again, sorry, it's not a straw man to point out the narrow minded inconsistencies.

For example, just throwing at PER and only looking at win shares.

Your take above about how stats don't matter for Kobe is straight up retarded.

Of course they matter.....

Your argument about MJ is no different than me saying the following;

Kobe has the 19th best PER of all time in the regular season
Kobe has the 23rd best PER of all time in the playoffs

Ugh....just not indicative of a top 10 impact player of all time. Seems to me that he is propped up by playing with Shaq for 8 and loaded teams coached by Phil.

In this scenario. I'm going to claim PER is the best measure of impact for a player and use it like ws/48.



Oh...and please tell me who the best player on the Wizards was. Your refusal to answer at this point is laughable.

Can't wait to hear you say Chris Whitney was the best player on the 02 Wizards....:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Does it give you pause that they went 30-30 with MJ and 7-15 without him?

Or that before he got hurt they were actually on pace to win like 45 games?

Why were they so much better with him if he wasn't close to their best player.

Again...who was their best player?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You are literally incapable of debating a point without bringing in pointless strawman arguments.

Going by just win shares he ranked 4th behind Chris Whitney, Popeye Jones and Rip Hamilton.

Unsurprising he ranked 4th out 4th in win shares per minute among Wizard who played similar minutes.

Among players that season that scored at least 1300 points he came in at 39 out of 40.

How many different ways does it need to be presented to you that he sucked? The only way 02 Jordan comes out without looking terrible is if you dont compare him to anybody, Is that what you want?

:oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

What's the threshold? How big does the sample have to be when comparing players on the same team? Didn't someone just post the graphic for Gasol having a better WS/48 than Kobe? Does that not imply he contributed more to wins than Kobe based on your criteria?

Relegating the game of basketball to something so simple is beyond stupid. It's become your MO. Between this and Drtg, you simplify the sport of basketball into something no one with any knowledge of the sport would ever seriously try to argue (at least in real life) with a straight face.

Are you not capable of forming a coherent argument based on, you know, actual basketball ability, without using these limited statistics and arbitrary parameters?

Tell me about it. This guy constantly makes a fool out of himself because he acts like some psuedo basketball accountant and thinks everything can be boiled down to advanced stats without any sort of other context. The great thing about it though is that as soon as his own methods boomerang back to him, all of a sudden the goal posts move.

I've literally never seen a single person here use WS/48% in any argument, ever. But here he is using it to try to prove Jahidi White and Chris Whitney were more important to the Wizards than old Man Jordan? But of course that stat also shows that Pau was the better, more important player on the Lakers championship teams, by a large margin in 2010. It also says that Kobe is not even a top 30 player all time (#34) and reaffirms Jordan's GOAT status... But of course he'll try to tap dance around these facts somehow.

I've never seen people work so hard to try to discredit a 40 year old basketball player :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

You are literally incapable of debating a point without bringing in pointless strawman arguments.

Going by just win shares he ranked 4th behind Chris Whitney, Popeye Jones and Rip Hamilton.

Unsurprising he ranked 4th out 4th in win shares per minute among Wizard who played similar minutes.

Among players that season that scored at least 1300 points he came in at 39 out of 40.

How many different ways does it need to be presented to you that he sucked? The only way 02 Jordan comes out without looking terrible is if you dont compare him to anybody, Is that what you want?

:oldlol:

Well, I don't think he sucked, but I'm not even arguing that. I'm arguing against using win shares as the end all be all.

How many more ways? Dude had a 20.7 PER and had them on pace to win 45 games before he got hurt. They were 30-30 with him and 7-15 without him. He was the focal point and do everything guy on a shit team in a tough defensive era by every opposing defense.

Nobody was worried about Chris Whitney or really any other player on that team but Rip.

You have to factor in the role a player plays.

Again...who was the best player on that team in your opinion?

That isn't a strawman you ****ing moron. It's pointing out the utter lack of consistency in your arguments. You are using ws/48 as an all encompassing stat and ignoring PER...why? Why do you believe ws/48 is better than PER?

It's not a strawman to reject your argument...and then ask you why you can't stay consistent with your adherence to the value of ws/48.

I've already explained to you why win shares are actually better compared across teams between players playing similar roles on their respective teams.

You reject that...why?

Please try to bring something of substance in the next BS post you spit up...


The following is not a strawman...we all know you think Kobe was the best player on the 2012 Lakers.

He was 4th in win shares per 48...so why do you think Kobe was the best player on that team? This isn't a strawman...it's a fair question to ask why you can't remain consistent.

What is even worse, is that just using stats...there are better arguments for the likes of Bynum and Gasol over Kobe in 2012. Bynum beats Kobe in PER and ws/48...Gasol beats Kobe in ws/48 and is only 1.5 off in PER.

Jordan destroyed his teammates in PER...

So I ask...was Kobe the best player on the 2012 Lakers?

[andgar923]

Important FACTS that people are forgetting:

A. MJ was still recuperating from his injury
B. Wiz had a new coach, new system
C. They were still experimenting on rotations, sets, and even MJ's playing time (he was supposed to play limited minutes coming off the bench)
D. They were plagued with injuries. Rip only 63 games, Etan Thomas only 47, Haywood 62, Laettner 57 and so on.
E. Did I mention that MJ was playing with multiple injuries?

This type of scenario would've derailed just about any team and would've forced a star player's performance to decline under the same conditions while in their prime, let alone a decade after it.

But on many nights, MJ was still the best player on the court and at times he showed that he was a legit MVP contender.

[Iceman#44]

WIZARDS JORDAN PRE KNEE-INJURY ALMOST OUTPLAYED ALL HIS YOUNGER RIVALS


VS PAUL PIERCE

2001-11-07:
Jordan: 32\8\2, 2 stl, 12-26 fg
Pierce: 14\5\2, 2 stl, 3 blk, 6-16 fg (win)

2001-11-24:
Jordan: 17\11\6, 1 stl, 7-24 fg (win)
Pierce: 23\7\5, 1 stl, 2 blk, 7-20 fg

2001-2002 TOTALS
W-L: 1-1
JORDAN: 24.5 ppg, 9.5 rbs, 4.0 ast, .380 fg
PIERCE: 18.5 ppg, 6.0 rbs, 3.5 ast, .361 fg

Pierce in his prime just got destroyed. 2-0 HTH plain and simple. JORDAN WIN.


--------------


VS LATRELL SPREWELL

2001-2002

2001-10-30:
Jordan: 19\5\6, 4 stl, 7-21 fg
Sprewell: 28\5\3, 1 stl, 9-21 fg (win)

2001-12-14:
Jordan: 19\6\6, 1stl, 2blk, 8-19 fg (win)
Sprewell: 13\0\1, 2-10 fg

2001-12-22:
Jordan: 26\1\3, 1 stl 11-22 fg (GAME-WINNER)
Sprewell: 6\4\3, 3-16 fg


2001-2002 TOTALS:
W-L: 2-1
JORDAN: 21.3 ppg, 4.0 rbs, 5.0 ast, .420 fg%
SPREWELL: 15.7 ppg, 3.0 rbs, 2.3 ast, .298 fg%

Same. Sprewell outscored, more boards, more ast, better fg%, 2-1 in HTH and also a Game-winner in Spree face. JORDAN WIN.


--------------------------

VS RAY ALLEN

2001-11-14:
Jordan: 31\4\3, 2 stl, 1 blk, 12-24 fg
Allen: 22\4\9, 1 stl, 1 blk, 6-14 fg (win)

2002-01-11:
Jordan: 22\3\3 1 stl, 10-24 fg
Allen: 27\3\4 3 stl, 11-19 fg (win)

2001-2002 TOTALS
W-L: 0-2
JORDAN: 26.5 ppg, 3.5 rbs, 3.0 ast, .458 fg
ALLEN: 24.5 ppg, 3.5 rbs, 6.5 ast, .515 fg


So, its a 1-1 in the HTH. MJ at 38 years old dropped 31 on 50% in the 1st matchup, but Allen got the best of him in the 2nd. Still, in the overall numbers MJ scored more but Allen had more ast and a better %. DRAW


----------------------

VS VINCE CARTER

2001-12-16:
Jordan: 21\4\3 3 stl, 8-21 fg (win)
Carter: 23\5\1 2 stl, 2 blk, 8-17 fg (Carter scores ZERO points in the 2nd half thanks to MJ defensive effort)

2002-02-05:
Jordan: 23\7\5 10-21 fg (win)
Carter: 29\1\2 10-23 fg


2001-2002 TOTALS
W-L: 2-0
JORDAN: 22.0 ppg, 5.5 rbs, 4.0 ast, .429 fg%
CARTER: 26.0 ppg, 3.0 rbs, 1.5 ast, .450 fg%


JORDAN WIN hands down. 2 wins, in the 1st he hold VC to ZERO in the 2nd half while scoring also 21 points, in the second he put 23\7\5 with better fg%. Carter with just 1.5 ast in 2 contest.
While VC scored more overall (26 to 22 ppg), Mj had better boards and ast numbers.

----------------------

VS KOBE BRYANT

2002-02-12:
Jordan: 22\5\6 , 2stl, 1 blk 9-20 fg
Bryant: 23\11\15, 1 stl, 1 blk, 8-20 fg (win)

Kobe got this. Kobe leads LA comeback and got the win plus the triple double. But MJ still hold his own, scoring 22 with better fg%, 5 boards and 6 ast.

-----------------------

VS ALLEN IVERSON

2001-11-28:
Jordan: 30\6\7 5 stl 1 blk, 11-27 fg (win)
Iverson: 40\6\3 1 stl, 15-31 fg

2002-01-22:
Jordan: 30\8\6 2 stl 1 blk, 14-27 fg
Iverson: 34\2\5 2 stl 1 blk, 14-32 fg (win)


2001-2002 TOTALS
W-L: 1-1
JORDAN: 30.0 ppg, 7.0 rbs, 6.5 ast, .463 fg%
IVERSON: 37.0 ppg, 4.0 rbs, 4.0 ast, .460 fg%


Hard choice, but JORDAN got this. Jordan scored 30 a game with huge numbers in boards and ast and with a better fg%, and Iverson 37 a game where remarkable anyway.


--------------------------

VS TRACY MCGRADY

2001-12-01:
Jordan: 15\7\7 2 blk, 6-19 fg
McGrady: 26\8\2 1 blk, 10-20 fg (win)

T.Mac got this. Anyway, its fair to note that after this game Mj knee was so bad that he didnt play vs Spurs and he got drained.


-------------------

VS KEVIN GARNETT

2002-01-12:
Jordan: 35\6\4 1 stl 1 blk, 14-30 fg
Garnett: 31\6\7 1 stl, 12-21 fg (win)

2002-01-21:
Jordan: 29\14\3, 12-34 fg
Garnett: 23\6\9 1 stl 1 blk, 8-17 fg (win)

2001-2002 TOTALS
W-L: 0-2
JORDAN: 32.0 ppg, 10.0 rbs, 3.5 ast, .406 fg%
GARNETT: 27.0 ppg, 6.0 rbs, 8.0 ast, .526 fg%


I will say a DRAW. Mj scored more, take more boards, but KG made more ast and with a better fg%.

--------------------------

VS JERRY STACKHOUSE


2001-11-04:
Jordan: 19\8\2 1 stl, 8-18 fg
Stackhouse: 28\4\4, 12-17 fg (WIN)

2002-01-29:
Jordan: 32\5\7 2 stl, 13-30 fg
Stackhouse: 24\6\6 1 stl, 10-21 fg (WIN)

2001-2002 TOTALS
W-L: 0-2
JORDAN: 25.5 ppg, 6.5 rbs, 4.5 ast, .438 fg%
STACKHOUSE: 26.0 ppg, 5.0 ast, 5.0 ast, .579 fg%

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The literal point of win shares is to divy up team wins to individuals based on their play.

Why would I use use PER instead if thats never been the intended use for that statistic ever?

:wtf:

[RRR3]

The literal point of win shares is to divy up team wins to individuals based on their play.

Why would I use use PER instead if thats never been the intended use for that statistic ever?

:wtf:
Who was the Lakers most impact full player in 2009 and 2010?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Who was the Lakers most impact full player in 2009 and 2010?

Not 11th ranked Luke Walton...

[DonDadda59]

Not 11th ranked Luke Walton...

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/micheal-hides_1.gif

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Seriously over the last 5 years can you name another "best player on their team" outside of the top ten on their team in win shares per minute given a reasonable sample size?

:confusedshrug:

Is that just a huge coincidence?

[DMAVS41]

The literal point of win shares is to divy up team wins to individuals based on their play.

Why would I use use PER instead if thats never been the intended use for that statistic ever?

:wtf:

The point is to not use only one thing. I personally would use PER over ws/48 if I had to choose one metric, but....I'd never only use one metric like it's the end all be all like you.

But again...why don't you carry win shares through to your favorite player. According to the metric you are claiming accurately describes contributions to winning...Kobe is far from the player you constantly tell is he was/is.

This isn't a strawman when we know your position. You think Kobe was the best player on the 2012 Lakers. Why? Because he wasn't first in ws/48 or win shares...or PER..LOL

You see why we get confused?

Also, don't you think it's odd you can't tell us who you think the best player on the Wizards was?

You keep talking about mythology, but the only one here running from facts is you. You won't even let us know who the Wizards best player in 02 was according to you.

Wonder why that is...

[DMAVS41]

Seriously over the last 5 years can you name another "best player on their team" outside of the top ten on their team in win shares per minute given a reasonable sample size?

:confusedshrug:

Is that just a huge coincidence?

Could you tell us the best player on the Wizards please.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The point is to not use only one thing. I personally would use PER over ws/48 if I had to choose one metric, but....I'd never only use one metric like it's the end all be all like you.

But again...why don't you carry win shares through to your favorite player. According to the metric you are claiming accurately describes contributions to winning...Kobe is far from the player you constantly tell is he was/is.

This isn't a strawman when we know your position. You think Kobe was the best player on the 2012 Lakers. Why? Because he wasn't first in ws/48 or win shares...or PER..LOL

You see why we get confused?

Also, don't you think it's odd you can't tell us who you think the best player on the Wizards was?

You keep talking about mythology, but the only one here running from facts is you. You won't even let us know who the Wizards best player in 02 was according to you.

Wonder why that is...

Kobe Bryant never ranked 11th on a team in win shares per minute for which I claimed he was the reason for his team success.

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe Bryant never ranked 11th on a team in win shares per minute for which I claimed he was the reason for his team success.

:confusedshrug:

But he does rank outside the top 30 in both regular season and playoffs for his career and you claim he's a top 10 player of all time.

Don't see the difference at all...it either matters or it doesn't.

Under your logic...Kobe's winning is far more a reflection of his stacked teams and elite coaching than his actual play. If win shares per minute is such a good measure...I see no reason to conclude Kobe is a top 10 player. I think his resume is just buffered by all the absurd amount of help he's had throughout his career. And your own metric supports this view that you hold so highly.

Also, it gets into semantics when you say "the reason"...of course Jordan was not the only reason the Wizards won some games.

I think it was clear he has the best player on that team though.

Again, who was the best player on the Wizards?

[dubeta]

OMG let this thread die pls


LeBron > MJ >>>> Kobe aka 18th in PER rating


/thread

[DMAVS41]

Kobe Bryant ws/48 in the playoffs is .1570

Dirk ws/48 in the playoffs is .1955

Duncan ws/48 in the playoffs is .1956

Lebron ws/48 in the playoffs is .2418



Ugh...hard to take Kobe seriously on your own criteria

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But he does rank outside the top 30 in both regular season and playoffs for his career and you claim he's a top 10 player of all time.

Don't see the difference at all...it either matters or it doesn't.

Also, it gets into semantics when you say "the reason"...of course Jordan was not the only reason the Wizards won some games.

I think it was clear he has the best player on that team though.

Again, who was the best player on the Wizards?

Likely because all time rankings are not a per minute statistic. Kobe is ranked top 14 in regular season win shares and top 8 in playoffs win shares. As usual you have no point. Once again I was doing Jordan a favor by citing his per minute numbers. The mythologists like to believe if Jordan was only able to play more minutes that season they would have made the playoffs. The statistics don't match the fantasy. :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

Seriously over the last 5 years can you name another "best player on their team" outside of the top ten on their team in win shares per minute given a reasonable sample size?

:confusedshrug:

Is that just a huge coincidence?

I don't know about all that, but I know a good sidekick when I see one:

2011-12 Miami Heat
1) LeBron James: .298 ws/48
2) Dwyane Wade: .227 ws/48

2012-13 Miami Heat
1) Lebron James: .322 ws/48
2) Chris Andersen: .207 ws/48
3) Dwyane Wade: .192 ws/48


2008-2009 Lakers
1) Pau Gasol - .233 ws/48
2) Kobe Bryant- .206 ws/48

2009-2010 Lakers
1) Pau Gasol- .220 ws/48
2) Andrew Bynum: .188 ws/48
2) Kobe Bryant- .160 ws/48

Dwyane Wade career ws/48: .192 (#25 all time NBA)

Kobe Bryant career ws/48: .182 (#34 all time NBA)

Poor Gasol barely had any help out there. :(

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't know about all that, but I know a good sidekick when I see one:

2011-12 Miami Heat
1) LeBron James: .298 ws/48
2) Dwyane Wade: .227 ws/48

2012-13 Miami Heat
1) Lebron James: .322 ws/48
2) Chris Andersen: .207 ws/48
3) Dwyane Wade: .192 ws/48


2008-2009 Lakers
1) Pau Gasol - .233 ws/48
2) Kobe Bryant- .206 ws/48

2009-2010 Lakers
1) Pau Gasol- .220 ws/48
2) Andrew Bynum: .188 ws/48
2) Kobe Bryant- .160 ws/48

Dwyane Wade career ws/48: .192 (#25 all time NBA)

Kobe Bryant career ws/48: .182 (#34 all time NBA)

Poor Gasol barely had any help out there. :(


How about I expand it to 10 years? Show me another great player outside the top ten on his own team in win shares per minute.

[DMAVS41]

Likely because all time rankings are not a per minute statistic. Kobe is ranked top 14 in regular season win shares and top 8 in playoffs win shares. As usual you have no point. Once again I was doing Jordan a favor by citing his per minute numbers. The mythologists like to believe if Jordan was only able to play more minutes that season they would have made the playoffs. The statistics don't match the fantasy. :confusedshrug:

actual those numbers are per minute.

they are win shares per 48. the exact same metric you are using you ****ing clown.

Kobe is 47th all time in playoff win shares per 48.

the reason his totals look good is because he's played a long time and played on loaded teams that won a lot.

LOL...as usual you just got ethered.

I'm using the exact same stat you are using you turd...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

[DMAVS41]

I don't know about all that, but I know a good sidekick when I see one:

2011-12 Miami Heat
1) LeBron James: .298 ws/48
2) Dwyane Wade: .227 ws/48

2012-13 Miami Heat
1) Lebron James: .322 ws/48
2) Chris Andersen: .207 ws/48
3) Dwyane Wade: .192 ws/48


2008-2009 Lakers
1) Pau Gasol - .233 ws/48
2) Kobe Bryant- .206 ws/48

2009-2010 Lakers
1) Pau Gasol- .220 ws/48
2) Andrew Bynum: .188 ws/48
2) Kobe Bryant- .160 ws/48

Dwyane Wade career ws/48: .192 (#25 all time NBA)

Kobe Bryant career ws/48: .182 (#34 all time NBA)

Poor Gasol barely had any help out there. :(


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DonDadda59]

Kobe Bryant ws/48 in the playoffs is .1570

Dirk ws/48 in the playoffs is .1955

Duncan ws/48 in the playoffs is .1956

Lebron ws/48 in the playoffs is .2418



Ugh...hard to take Kobe seriously on your own criteria

Exactly. Same thing always happens with this clown. Suicide by misguided 'logic' :oldlol:

Kobe was the second best player on the Lakers in 2009, the third best in 2010 (Gasol was #1 both seasons). And he's not even a top 30 player all time according to his own criteria.

All he's accomplished here is to show ISH just how ridiculously overrated Bean is. And for that, I applaud him :applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

actual those numbers are per minute.

they are win shares per 48. the exact same metric you are using you ****ing clown.

Kobe is 47th all time in playoff win shares per 48.

the reason his totals look good is because he's played a long time and played on loaded teams that won a lot.

LOL...as usual you just got ethered.

I'm using the exact same stat you are using you turd...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

I'm using it to show a player impact on winning compared to his teammates in a given season.

You are using it to rank career legacies.

One has nothing to do with the other.

:roll:

[DMAVS41]

Exactly. Same thing always happens with this clown. Suicide by misguided 'logic' :oldlol:

Kobe was the second best player on the Lakers in 2009, the third best in 2010 (Gasol was #1 both seasons). And he's not even a top 30 player all time according to his own criteria.

All he's accomplished here is to show ISH just how ridiculously overrated Bean is. And for that, I applaud him :applause:

Yea...and he can't even tell us who the best player on the 02 Wizards was.

That is my favorite part. He can't even answer because even he knows saying Chris Whitney is just too hilarious.

[DMAVS41]

I'm using it to show a player impact on winning compared to his teammates in a given season.

You are using it to rank career legacies.

One has nothing to do with the other.

:roll:

I'm not ranking career legacies. I'm talking about how impactful a player is in terms of winning.

It's the exact same thing.

Kobe's career legacy ranking is different than how good he actually was...sorry if you are too stupid to understand this.

Those titles and accolades don't mean much to me if we are just talking about how good a player actually was at the game. So much of that is dependent on circumstances outside the control of a player. This is what Kobe stans like you don't get....he wasn't "that good" at the actual game. It's his legacy that is great. Big difference in my opinion.

And now that you've pointed out how important ws/48 is (with Kobe outside the top 30 in the regular season and barely cracking the top 50 in the most important games of his career)...it's just more evidence of what we've been saying for years.

I'm glad you agree now though.

Dirk >>>>>>>> Kobe at impacting his teams ability to win games.

[Warfan]

So the point of this thread is to bash 40 year old MJ, and he can't even do that properly :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How about 15 years?

Is there any other players over the last 15 years outside of the mythological Michael Jordan who were clearly their teams best player while finishing the season outside of the top ten of their team in win shares per minute?

A single name will do...

[DonDadda59]

So the point of this thread is to bash a 40 year old MJ, and he can't even do that properly :roll:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11111/111119363/3816676-0704928121-36645.gif

[RRR3]

Foot, stop being a despicable coward and answer these questions:

1. Best player on 02 wizards?
2. Best player on 09 and 10 lakers?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So the point of this thread is to bash 40 year old MJ, and he can't even do that properly :roll:

I also noticed that mythologists like to claim Jordan was 40 this year when he was actually 38.

Whats up with that?

[DMAVS41]

Foot, stop being a despicable coward and answer these questions:

1. Best player on 02 wizards?
2. Best player on 09 and 10 lakers?

He won't. He can't.

It's just priceless.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How about 15 years?

Is there any other players over the last 15 years outside of the mythological Michael Jordan who were clearly their teams best player while finishing the season outside of the top ten of their team in win shares per minute?

A single name will do...


20 years?

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So no other player over the last 20 years was their teams best player yet finished outside the top ten on their own squad in win shares per minute???

Whats more likely?

The problem is win shares per minute as a statistic or that 02 Jordan was garbage?

:lol

[DonDadda59]

So no other player over the last 20 years was their teams best player yet finished outside the top ten on their own squad in win shares per minute???

Whats more likely?

The problem is win shares per minute as a statistic or that 02 Jordan was garbage?

:lol

Let it go already. If you want to say Jordan wasn't the best and most important player on the Wizards, go ahead. I'm sure Chris Whitney would be shocked and thrilled to learn he was the team's MVP. Just make sure you admit Pau Gasol was the best and most important player on the Lakers and the major reason they won championships. Hell Bean was the third best player on the 2010 Lakers and was less responsible for wins than Wade was in 2013, right? All we're asking for is a little consistency. :cheers:

[Warfan]

I also noticed that mythologists like to claim Jordan was 40 this year when he was actually 38.

Whats up with that?

He turned 39 midseason, you might've known that if you didnt get all of your 'knowledge' for this on basketball reference :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He turned 39 midseason, you might've known that if you didnt do all of your research on basketball reference :confusedshrug:

Not 40.

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Let it go already. If you want to say Jordan wasn't the best and most important player on the Wizards, go ahead. I'm sure Chris Whitney would be shocked and thrilled to learn he was the team's MVP. Just make sure you admit Pau Gasol was the best and most important player on the Lakers and the major reason they won championships. Hell Bean was the third best player on the 2010 Lakers and was less responsible for wins than Wade was in 2013, right? All we're asking for is a little consistency. :cheers:

I've maintained my consistency since my first post in this thread.

The most important player for any team in terms of winning is not ranked 11th in win shares per minute.

:confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

I've maintained my consistency since my first post in this thread.

The most important player for any team in terms of winning is not ranked 11th in win shares per minute.

:confusedshrug:

Ah. So what's the cut off rank that the most important player can be? 7th? 5th?

[Warfan]

Not 40.

:facepalm

And you said he was actually 38 :confusedshrug: '

The fact that you can only to try (and fail) to bash an ANCIENT MJ shows how great he really was :applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And you said he was actually 38 :confusedshrug: '

The fact that you can only to try (and fail) to bash an ANCIENT MJ shows how great he really was :applause:

Jordan was 38 that season.
He was also 39.
He was never 40.

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ah. So what's the cut off rank that the most important player can be? 7th? 5th?

Yeah sure. A stacked team with close differences in numbers I can buy that.

11th on a team full of losers though...

[Warfan]

Jordan was 38 that season.
He was also 39.
He was never 40.

:facepalm

You've lost any real argument so you're trying to desperately get some sort of win, no matter how small it is :oldlol:

I said 40 in jest, and he basically was 40 anyway.

[RRR3]

Foot, stop being a despicable coward and answer these questions:

1. Best player on 02 wizards?
2. Best player on 09 and 10 lakers?
You're embarassing yourself, foot. Answer the questions.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You've lost any real argument so you're trying to desperately get some sort of win, no matter how small it is :oldlol:

I said 40 in jest, and he basically was 40 anyway.

Its ok I understand. Mythologists have to mythologize. Hard to admit he was just a terrible player. You have to make him older to rationalize it.

:cheers:

[DonDadda59]

Yeah sure. A stacked team with close differences in numbers I can buy that.

11th on a team full of losers though...

Well isn't that convenient :oldlol:

OK, how about some Iverson teams from around the same time:

02-03 (48-34): Iverson 6th, Brian Skinner 1st
01-02 (43-39): Iverson 6th, Ira Bowman 1st
00-01 (56-26, Finals Berth, Iverson MVP): Iverson 4th, Pepe Sanchez 1st

I mean is 6th too low to consider him the best player on the team? Was Pepe Sanchez the real driving force behind the 6ers finals run? :confusedshrug:

Your criteria says yes, right?

[RRR3]

Pepe Sanchez>Bean.
#coldhardfacts

[SamuraiSWISH]

Is there any other players over the last 15 years outside of the mythological Michael Jordan who were clearly their teams best player while finishing the season outside of the top ten of their team in win shares per minute?

A single name will do...
Your ultimate point though?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well isn't that convenient :oldlol:

OK, how about some Iverson teams from around the same time:

02-03 (48-34): Iverson 6th, Brian Skinner 1st
01-02 (43-39): Iverson 6th, Ira Bowman 1st
00-01 (56-26, Finals Berth, Iverson MVP): Iverson 4th, Pepe Sanchez 1st

I mean is 6th too low to consider him the best player on the team? Was Pepe Sanchez the real driving force behind the 6ers finals run? :confusedshrug:

Your criteria says yes, right?

Good job, Good effort.

This is the leading contender so far but don't get your hopes up 6th is pretty far away from 11th.

[DonDadda59]

Good job, Good effort.

This is the leading contender so far but don't get your hopes up 6th is pretty far away from 11th.

You sure do love not answering questions :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Your ultimate point though?

That Jordan mythologists are hyper sensitive and delusional.

Can't even admit that Jordan on the Wizards was a terrible basketball player despite overwhelming evidence.

See also:

Inefficient Defenses in the 80s and 90s
Inefficient Defenses Jordan faced in the Finals
Quitting on your championship team in your prime while still clamoring about some uncomparable competitive spirit

[DonDadda59]

That Jordan mythologists are hyper sensitive and delusional.

Can't even admit that Jordan on the Wizards was a terrible basketball player despite overwhelming evidence.

See also:

Inefficient Defenses in the 80s and 90s
Inefficient Defenses Jordan faced in the Finals
Quitting on your championship team in your prime while still clamoring about some uncomparable competitive spirit

You're all over the place bruh. When did this thread turn into an airing of grievances against the GOAT? BRB getting the Festivus pole.

[tpols]

the most inefficient chucker in NBA history?

http://i.imgur.com/17hkW.png

damn :biggums: crazy how he went from being so efficient to the worst efficiency volume scorer of all time.. guy shoulda stayed retired.

.468 TS.. Yikes.

[RRR3]

That Jordan mythologists are hyper sensitive and delusional.

Can't even admit that Jordan on the Wizards was a terrible basketball player despite overwhelming evidence.

See also:

Inefficient Defenses in the 80s and 90s
Inefficient Defenses Jordan faced in the Finals
Quitting on your championship team in your prime while still clamoring about some uncomparable competitive spirit
Why can't you admit Gasol and a Bynum were better than Kobe in 2010? :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

So no other player over the last 20 years was their teams best player yet finished outside the top ten on their own squad in win shares per minute???

Whats more likely?

The problem is win shares per minute as a statistic or that 02 Jordan was garbage?

:lol

This is a semantical argument.

How are you defining "garbage"?????

MJ was not an elite player in 02...especially after his knee injury...

And even if one were to concede he were "garbage"...that doesn't mean he wasn't the best player on his team.

So if your point is that MJ was not great in 02...I'd be okay with someone saying that. In a vacuum...he wasn't.

But you are denying that he was the best player on that team...which he clearly was in my opinion. And we grade guys at that point on expectations. A 38/39 year old guy coming out of retirement to lead a terrible team and do everything for them....you'd expect some low advanced metrics.

I'm just confused why you think ws/48 is a better representative of his play than a whole host of other metrics. Seems agenda driven...

I'd say MJ putting up 23/5/5 with a 20.7 PER and getting his team to .500 in the 60 games he played is very impressive for a player at his age given the circumstances.

That is just me though.

Again though...we've pointed out you can't carry your criteria through to Kobe...and you have failed to tell us who the best player on that team was.

[ralph_i_el]

This is a semantical argument.

How are you defining "garbage"?????

MJ was not an elite player in 02...especially after his knee injury...

And even if one were to concede he were "garbage"...that doesn't mean he wasn't the best player on his team.

So if your point is that MJ was not great in 02...I'd be okay with someone saying that. In a vacuum...he wasn't.

But you are denying that he was the best player on that team...which he clearly was in my opinion. And we grade guys at that point on expectations. A 38/39 year old guy coming out of retirement to lead a terrible team and do everything for them....you'd expect some low advanced metrics.

I'm just confused why you think ws/48 is a better representative of his play than a whole host of other metrics. Seems agenda driven...

I'd say MJ putting up 23/5/5 with a 20.7 PER and getting his team to .500 in the 60 games he played is very impressive for a player at his age given the circumstances.

That is just me though.

Again though...we've pointed out you can't carry your criteria through to Kobe...and you have failed to tell us who the best player on that team was.

And I'd say that by making it all about inefficient mj-ball, he actually made that team worse :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

And I'd say that by making it all about inefficient mj-ball, he actually made that team worse :confusedshrug:

Holy shit you dudes are persistent in your nonsense.

The Wizards had a 19-63 record the season before Jordan joined them. By the All star break, Jordan was 1 of 2 players putting up 25-5-5 and the Wizards were 26-21, on pace to win 45 games and make the playoffs. Then he went down with a knee injury. They had a 7-15 record in games he missed. The next season, he started on the bench to give his ailing knees a break but the injury bug hit the team and he was forced to become a starter at age 40. He was the only player on the team to play all 82 games and was giving them 37 minutes per game. The team won 37 games again. When Jordan retired for good, the team won 25 the next season.

So again... explain how he made the team worse.

[ralph_i_el]

Holy shit you dudes are persistent in your nonsense.

The Wizards had a 19-63 record the season before Jordan joined them. By the All star break, Jordan was 1 of 2 players putting up 25-5-5 and the Wizards were 26-21, on pace to win 45 games and make the playoffs. Then he went down with a knee injury. They had a 7-15 record in games he missed. The next season, he started on the bench to give his ailing knees a break but the injury bug hit the team and he was forced to become a starter at age 40. He was the only player on the team to play all 82 games and was giving them 37 minutes per game. The team won 37 games again. When Jordan retired for good, the team won 25 the next season.

So again... explain how he made the team worse.
So its ok to use the injury bug as an excuse FOR MJ, but you won't consider their 19 win season as a function of tons of injuries. Check out the 19 win squad and then MJ's first year and get back to me. The 19 win team had a bunch of veterans all miss like half the year.

Then MJ leaves, Doug Collins leaves, stackhouse is hurt, gilbert only plays 50 games. Kwame (drafted by MJ) starts...boom 25 wins.

You don't give a ****. Apparently historically inefficient chucking was the reason why they improved, and not because they had a relatively healthy year with a good coach :facepalm

[JT123]

So its ok to use the injury bug as an excuse FOR MJ, but you won't consider their 19 win season as a function of tons of injuries. Check out the 19 win squad and then MJ's first year and get back to me. The 19 win team had a bunch of veterans all miss like half the year.

Then MJ leaves, Doug Collins leaves, stackhouse is hurt, gilbert only plays 50 games. Kwame (drafted by MJ) starts...boom 25 wins.

You don't give a ****. Apparently historically inefficient chucking was the reason why they improved, and not because they had a relatively healthy year with a good coach :facepalm
Ether.

[DonDadda59]

So its ok to use the injury bug as an excuse FOR MJ, but you won't consider their 19 win season as a function of tons of injuries. Check out the 19 win squad and then MJ's first year and get back to me. The 19 win team had a bunch of veterans all miss like half the year.

Then MJ leaves, Doug Collins leaves, stackhouse is hurt, gilbert only plays 50 games. Kwame (drafted by MJ) starts...boom 25 wins.

You don't give a ****. Apparently historically inefficient chucking was the reason why they improved, and not because they had a relatively healthy year with a good coach :facepalm

My dude... you said Jordan made them worse. They were 26-21 by all star break when he was in the lineup (45 win pace), 30-30 overall with him, 7-15 (26 win pace) when he was out of the lineup. They were also better defensively with him in the lineup as opposed to when he was out. They had a 102.6 DRTG with him in, 106.9 DRTG with him out. So AGAIN... how were they better without him than with him? You have yet to explain that.

And now your argument is that injuries were the reason the team won only 19 games the season before... OK, how about the season before that? They won 29, before that 18 with guys like Juwon Howard, Mitch Richmond, Rod Strickland, Rip Hamilton, and the great Chris Whitney and Jahidi White all playing 70+ games (40+ in the lockout season)?

You guys are reaching at the absolute bottom of the barrel for reasons to hate on a 38-40 year old broken down basketball player. It's come down to ws/48%? Really? :oldlol:

But please, keep bullshitting. It's really working wonders for you.


Ether.

Sit your dumb ass down :yaohappy:

[ralph_i_el]

My dude... you said Jordan made them worse. They were 26-21 by all star break when he was in the lineup (45 win pace), 30-30 overall with him, 7-15 (26 win pace) when he was out of the lineup. They were also better defensively with him in the lineup as opposed to when he was out. They had a 102.6 DRTG with him in, 106.9 DRTG with him out. So AGAIN... how were they better without him than with him? You have yet to explain that.

And now your argument is that injuries were the reason the team won only 19 games the season before... OK, how about the season before that? They won 29, before that 18 with guys like Juwon Howard, Mitch Richmond, Rod Strickland, Rip Hamilton, and the great Chris Whitney and Jahidi White all playing 70+ games (40+ in the lockout season)?

You guys are reaching at the absolute bottom of the barrel for reasons to hate on a 38-40 year old broken down basketball player. It's come down to ws/48%? Really? :oldlol:

But please, keep bullshitting. It's really working wonders for you.



Sit your dumb ass down :yaohappy:

You and juju will just do this in any MJ thread. Ignore every knock on him, ignore any context that doesn't support MJ, and give him credit for any team success. I ****ing lived through the MJ years. I'm from NOVA I've been a wiz fan since before they were wizards and I watched MJ chuck and mismanage this team into mediocrity. I'm done arguing with nostalgia-blind fanboys

MJ DA gawd lost a bunch of times in the first round, never beat Larry bird in the playoffs, and never won a chip on a team that would have won less than 45 games without him! True facts, and he's still the goat. You don't have to fight every knock on your favorite player. Nobody has ever been perfect.

[DonDadda59]

You and juju will just do this in any MJ thread. Ignore every knock on him, ignore any context that doesn't support MJ, and give him credit for any team success. I ****ing lived through the MJ years. I'm from NOVA I've been a wiz fan since before they were wizards and I watched MJ chuck and mismanage this team into mediocrity. I'm done arguing with nostalgia-blind fanboys

MJ DA gawd lost a bunch of times in the first round, never beat Larry bird in the playoffs, and never won a chip on a team that would have won less than 45 games without him! True facts, and he's still the goat. You don't have to fight every knock on your favorite player. Nobody has ever been perfect.

Another meltdown post because of a 38-40 year old basketball player. Floor Jordan rustled more jimmies than I ever imagined possible. :oldlol:

Once you're done cleaning up your PMS blood from your keyboard, be sure to tell us how the Wizards were better without old man Jordan. 7-15 record and worse defense. I'll be waiting.

[Cali Syndicate]

You and juju will just do this in any MJ thread. Ignore every knock on him, ignore any context that doesn't support MJ, and give him credit for any team success. I ****ing lived through the MJ years. I'm from NOVA I've been a wiz fan since before they were wizards and I watched MJ chuck and mismanage this team into mediocrity. I'm done arguing with nostalgia-blind fanboys

MJ DA gawd lost a bunch of times in the first round, never beat Larry bird in the playoffs, and never won a chip on a team that would have won less than 45 games without him! True facts, and he's still the goat. You don't have to fight every knock on your favorite player. Nobody has ever been perfect.

As a MJ fan, sometimes I cringe when reading the arguments for MJ, so I get what your saying. But the bold doesn't really hold any weight. It's not fact first of all, just because pippen carried the 94 bulls doesn't mean he could carry them in the same fashion in the 91 or 92 season. Pippen ultimately became a differnt player in that time. Lebron in 09 was much better player than he was in 06 or 07 right? But let's say pippen could carry them to 45 wins. Really so what? So they are a run of the mill playoff cast of players without mj but with him, they are a dominant and proven championship team.

Like I said, I get the frustration but context is a key factor that many people love to overlook when analyzing bball history. I think that's why dadda strongly argues against these points.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're right. In light of this bullshit advanced statistic, we should have run the offense through Jahidi White.

I watched almost every game that team played. That Jordan would be a top 10 player today. And he was a model of efficiency. I don't know how often his shots went in (wouldn't be surprised if he shot 42% or so), but that doesn't matter. What matters is *actual* efficiency - not holding onto the ball too long, making good and quick decisions, not taking a lot of shots early in the shot clock that aren't likely to go in, etc.

Still funny :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The '02 Wizards with Jordan at the helm were at 26-21 and in the 6th seed in the East before MJ hurt his knee and had to sit out a month. They were on pace for 43-46 wins after having won just 19 games the season before, which would have been a +24-27 game improvement despite losing 3 of their top 6 players from the year prior (would have been one of the largest improvements in league history, and this is with a 39 year old Jordan, not prime Jordan). Jordan was averaging 25/6/6 (one of only 2 players to do so) and was an MVP candidate.

So your complaints are ultimately irrelevant.

Jordan mythologists :facepalm

[RRR3]

Foot, stop being a despicable coward and answer these questions:

1. Best player on 02 wizards?
2. Best player on 09 and 10 lakers?
Still too cowardly to answer this, foot?

[RRR3]

Lmao I knew that would shut him up

[6 for 24]

The most important player for any team in terms of winning is not ranked 11th in win shares per minute.


I have no idea what this "win shares per minute" stat is all about (my PER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324201)

[DonDadda59]

Wizards record without Jordan: 7-15 (31.8% win)

Lakers with Kobe this season: 8-17 (32% win)

So about as good as the Lakers WITH Kobe.

:applause:

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE=6 for 24]I have no idea what this "win shares per minute" stat is all about (my PER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324201)

[RoundMoundOfReb]

How much better would the 15 Lakers be if Kobe wasn't ball hogging his way to a 36% usage rate on a .489 TS%?

[SamuraiSWISH]

How much better would the 15 Lakers be if Kobe wasn't ball hogging his way to a 36% usage rate on a .489 TS%?
2015 Lakers have more basketball talent than the 2002 Wizards, as well.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How much better would the 15 Lakers be if Kobe wasn't ball hogging his way to a 36% usage rate on a .489 TS%?

Are you talking about a player more efficient than "top 10" and "MVP candidate" 02 Jordan?

[RRR3]

Foot, stop being a despicable coward and answer these questions:

1. Best player on 02 wizards?
2. Best player on 09 and 10 lakers?
Hey foot what's your response?

[RRR3]

Curious who you think best player on the lakers is this year foot. Unless you want to be inconsistent you can't say it's Kobe with his .016 WS/48

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Hey foot what's your response?

Please try to stay on topic or start another thread. We are talking about Jordan's record breaking inefficiency in this thread.

[RRR3]

Please try to stay on topic or start another thread. We are talking about Jordan's record breaking inefficiency in this thread.
This is on topic dumbass. I'm trying to see if you are at least consistent with your bs. However you're too afraid to answer and say "Chris Whitney and Pau Gasol", aren't you?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Curious who you think best player on the lakers is this year foot. Unless you want to be inconsistent you can't say it's Kobe with his .016 WS/48

Do you remember why win shares were brought up?:roll:

Do you see me calling Kobe an MVP candidate?

[RRR3]

Do you remember why win shares were brought up?:roll:

Do you see me calling Kobe an MVP candidate?
Best player on the Lakers this year?

[juju151111]

Do you remember why win shares were brought up?:roll:

Do you see me calling Kobe an MVP candidate?
What's it response to the Lakers winning pace being the same then the wizards without Mj. Kobe is currently shooting a worse FG% then a 40 year old man with no knees and 3 years from basketball. Imagine Kobe at 40 my god the horror.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What's it response to the Lakers winning pace being the same then the wizards without Mj. Kobe is currently shooting a worse FG% then a 40 year old man with no knees and 3 years from basketball. Imagine Kobe at 40 my god the horror.

TS% is a superior statistic and its funny how all of a sudden ages matter again since it was all about mileage and seasons played a few days ago when Kobe passed Jordan in career points. :lol

[DonDadda59]

Please try to stay on topic or start another thread. We are talking about Jordan's record breaking inefficiency in this thread.

Dis nigguh :oldlol:

Killed by his own hand as always. RIP. :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

2015 Lakers have more basketball talent than the 2002 Wizards, as well.

And this era is literally twice as easy on perimeter players like Kobe for scoring. Put this version of Kobe back in 02 with those defenses and he honestly might not crack 42% TS.

This thread is this biggest back fire ever.

Broken down injured MJ playing with less help and against far better defenses:

23/6/5 47% TS

Kobe:

25/5/5 49% TS


And now the ultimate failure and kick to the face for Yao:

MJ WS/48 .075
Kobe WS/48 .016

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And this era is literally twice as easy on perimeter players like Kobe for scoring. Put this version of Kobe back in 02 with those defenses and he honestly might not crack 42% TS.

This thread is this biggest back fire ever.

Broken down injured MJ playing with less help and against far better defenses:

23/6/5 47% TS

Kobe:

25/5/5 49% TS


And now the ultimate failure and kick to the face for Yao:

MJ WS/48 .075
Kobe WS/48 .016

Backfire. :roll:

I'm the one who bumped it.

Exhibit A: How to bait Jordan mythologists into acknowledging the impact of efficient defenses on true shooting percentages.

[DMAVS41]

Backfire. :roll:

I'm the one who bumped it.

Exhibit A: How to bait Jordan mythologists into acknowledging the impact of efficient defenses on true shooting percentages.

What? Kobe is facing far weaker defenses than MJ did....MJ in 02 was just objectively better, on your metrics, than current Kobe.

It's not even remotely close.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What? Kobe is facing far weaker defenses than MJ did....MJ in 02 was just objectively better, on your metrics, than current Kobe.

It's not even remotely close.

My metric was true shooting percentage.

I brought up win shares in response to claims by mythologists that he was responsible for the Wizards winning thus making him an MVP candidate.

Try to keep up.

[6 for 24]

I don't know why OP doesn't just use PER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324201)

[DMAVS41]

My metric was true shooting percentage.

I brought up win shares in response to claims by mythologists that he was responsible for the Wizards winning thus making him an MVP candidate.

Try to keep up.

Okay.

And I'd argue that shooting 48.5% TS in this era is actually worse or equal to than shooting 46.8% TS in 02.

Could you at least admit you talked out of your ass back then?

Could you at least admit that ws/48 isn't a good indicator of best player on a team?

I mean....Kobe is clearly the best player on the Lakers and most responsible for the wins...and he's 11th in ws/48.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Okay.

And I'd argue that shooting 48.5% TS in this era is actually worse or equal to than shooting 46.8% TS in 02.

Could you at least admit you talked out of your ass back then?

Could you at least admit that ws/48 isn't a good indicator of best player on a team?

I mean....Kobe is clearly the best player on the Lakers and most responsible for the wins...and he's 11th in ws/48.

:confusedshrug:

To answer your questions:

1) No

2) I never claimed it was.

I totally agree that the context of defensive efficiency is a relevant distinction but you might want to huddle up with other Jordan mythologists and decide if it applies only to the 2002 year or for the entirety of their careers, playoff opponents and Finals opponents. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

To answer your questions:

1) No

2) I never claimed it was.

I totally agree that the context of defensive efficiency is a relevant distinction but you might want to huddle up with other Jordan mythologists and decide if it applies only to the 2002 year or for the entirety of their careers, playoff opponents and Finals opponents. :confusedshrug:

He began the season a well rested 38.255 years old. I hear he is an amazing leader and team player so I was just hoping he could have played some better team ball and perhaps pass some more to the more efficient players on the team.

When I see posts like this...it's obvious you were talking more just scoring efficiency. Which is why we all brought up other things like record, on/off, PER, minutes played...etc.

And I'm not following the point about defensive strength. Kobe has played in a joke defensive era post 2004...and when he did have to play tough defenses in the early 00's...he had prime/peak Shaq attracting an absurd amount of attention.

So....what is your point again?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He began the season a well rested 38.255 years old. I hear he is an amazing leader and team player so I was just hoping he could have played some better team ball and perhaps pass some more to the more efficient players on the team.

When I see posts like this...it's obvious you were talking more just scoring efficiency.

:roll:

You have terrible reading comprehension.

[DMAVS41]

:roll:

You have terrible reading comprehension.

:roll:

If you think that is not an attack on more than scoring efficiency...you are nuts. It's not even accurate...who the **** was saying MJ is the epitome of a "team player" to begin with? Nobody that watched MJ called him a great "team player"....I mean...why better of a team player than Kobe, but hardly on the level of a Duncan or Magic or Bird in terms of being a "team guy"...

Again...what is your point? That MJ should have passed more?

Not much supports that...considering the Wizards were actually 6.6 points better offensively with MJ...why? Why do you say this?

Again...please tell us your point?

[DonDadda59]

Again...please tell us your point?

Don't waste any more of your time. He doesn't have a point. Bean this season turned this clown's bullshit into a complete and utterly devastating backfire for him. He's just talking in circles in a pathetic attempt to save face.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:roll:

If you think that is not an attack on more than scoring efficiency...you are nuts. It's not even accurate...who the **** was saying MJ is the epitome of a "team player" to begin with? Nobody that watched MJ called him a great "team player"....I mean...why better of a team player than Kobe, but hardly on the level of a Duncan or Magic or Bird in terms of being a "team guy"...

Again...what is your point? That MJ should have passed more?

Not much supports that...considering the Wizards were actually 6.6 points better offensively with MJ...why? Why do you say this?

Again...please tell us your point?


"MVP candidate" :roll:

Instead of just accepting the undeniable truth that 02 Jordan was the most inefficient chucker in league history Jordan mythologists would rather pretend its cool to do so as long as you play at 43 win pace. For some reason I highly doubt they were singing the same turn when the kid out of Georgetown was breaking ankles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VHT1bA40X0

How do you expect us to worship his videogame stats against weak defenses earlier in his career if you won't even criticize his terrible numbers in 2002? If the stats don't matter in 2002, then they don't matter pre 2002 either. Embrace what he was. The most inefficient volume shooter in league history who played that way because his mythologists lived to see it. The nightly Jordan brick show sold tickets. He could stick on a uniform right now and his sycophants would delude themselves into believing he was a deserving all star. "actually efficient" "top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate".

What would you think if about Kobe "Stans" claimed Kobe Bryant was "actually efficient (as opposed to statistically efficient)", "a top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate"? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

What would you think if about Kobe "Stans" claimed Kobe Bryant was "actually efficient (as opposed to statistically efficient)", "a top 10 player" and a "MVP candidate"? :oldlol:

I think this is a false comparison. Many of the posts in this thread were talking about MJ before he got hurt. When he had a terrible team over .500 and was putting up something like 25/6/5.

It's obvious you weren't around back then because MJ before he got hurt absolutely was playing like a fringe MVP candidate and top 10 player in the league.

Comparing that MJ to current Kobe is absurd...in terms of impact on MVP type stuff. As players...it's a different story for me as I've said. Those Wizards were over .500...Jordan was leading them to real wins. They were better with MJ on the floor...etc.

Those Wizards were 3.1 points better with MJ on the floor per 100 possessions.
These Lakers are 20 points worse with Kobe on the floor per 100 possessions.

The crazy thing is that Kobe, to me, seems like the better player...but the results for his team and himself so far are just pathetic...so I'm rethinking that stuff.

I just really don't think you understand how good MJ was playing to start that season...every sentence you utter on the subject exemplifies your ignorance.

[tpols]

The crazy thing is that Kobe, to me, seems like the better player...but the results for his team and himself so far are just pathetic...so I'm rethinking that stuff.
.

You're forgetting srs and schedule strength. The wizards played in a conference where 50 wins so could get you the first seed. In today's West? You'd be lucky to get the 8 with that amount of wins.

The Lakers have a winning record against today's East.. Which is actually better than the East MJ played in. For all the times you've ragged on today's East it seems pretty hypocritical to try and act like MJ faced better competition.

[DMAVS41]

You're forgetting srs and schedule strength. The wizards played in a conference where 50 wins so could get you the first seed. In today's West? You'd be lucky to get the 8 with that amount of wins.

The Lakers have a winning record against today's East.. Which is actually better than the East MJ played in. For all the times you've ragged on today's East it seems pretty hypocritical to try and act like MJ faced better competition.

Yea...I'm not forgetting that at all. I'm factoring it in...which is why I feel somewhat okay holding to taking Kobe over MJ here as a player.

But, it's on thin ice, so to speak, right now...

I assumed Kobe would get his scoring efficiency up a bit more than he has....and I won't even bring defense into this. Certainly it was easier to play defense back in 02 and that needs to be mentioned, but Kobe's defense leaves a lot to be desired on this front to say the least.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I think this is a false comparison. Many of the posts in this thread were talking about MJ before he got hurt. When he had a terrible team over .500 and was putting up something like 25/6/5.

It's obvious you weren't around back then because MJ before he got hurt absolutely was playing like a fringe MVP candidate and top 10 player in the league.

Comparing that MJ to current Kobe is absurd...in terms of impact on MVP type stuff. As players...it's a different story for me as I've said. Those Wizards were over .500...Jordan was leading them to real wins. They were better with MJ on the floor...etc.

Those Wizards were 3.1 points better with MJ on the floor per 100 possessions.
These Lakers are 20 points worse with Kobe on the floor per 100 possessions.

The crazy thing is that Kobe, to me, seems like the better player...but the results for his team and himself so far are just pathetic...so I'm rethinking that stuff.

I just really don't think you understand how good MJ was playing to start that season...every sentence you utter on the subject exemplifies your ignorance.

Looks like his team had a good month in December...

http://i.imgur.com/X8XP6tt.png

thats about it... :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Its a nice boost to your plus minus when you are 3 for 16 and win the game 18 points anyway. :lol


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200112210ORL.html

[DMAVS41]

Looks like his team had a good month in December...

http://i.imgur.com/X8XP6tt.png

thats about it... :confusedshrug:

It's semantics at this point.

To me, putting up 26/6/5 and leading that Wizards team to an above .500 record is worthy of some praise.

Again...all the evidence supports the Wizards actually keeping pace with teams, on average, with MJ on the floor. They had a positive 3.1 scoring differential with him out there.

I mean...they won 18 more games than the previous year...and again...everyone is talking about when MJ had them on like a 42 win pace or whatever the hell it was.

I mean...you act like it's crazy to consider him a top 10 player. when he was healthy...yet he finished 13th in MVP voting despite getting hurt and dropping off and only starting 53 games on the year.

Again...what the **** is your point?

[DMAVS41]

Its a nice boost to your plus minus when you are 3 for 16 and win the game 18 points anyway. :lol


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200112210ORL.html

Dat MJ leadership you speak of

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[SamuraiSWISH]

YMF being obliterated ... all that back tracking. "I bumped this to prove my original point about defensive efficiency rating" BWAHAHA. A gold medal in mental gymnastics from this kid.

[juju151111]

TS% is a superior statistic and its funny how all of a sudden ages matter again since it was all about mileage and seasons played a few days ago when Kobe passed Jordan in career points. :lol
No it's about age. You don't see 40 year old coming into the league. Doh idiot.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's semantics at this point.

To me, putting up 26/6/5 and leading that Wizards team to an above .500 record is worthy of some praise.

Again...all the evidence supports the Wizards actually keeping pace with teams, on average, with MJ on the floor. They had a positive 3.1 scoring differential with him out there.

I mean...they won 18 more games than the previous year...and again...everyone is talking about when MJ had them on like a 42 win pace or whatever the hell it was.

I mean...you act like it's crazy to consider him a top 10 player. when he was healthy...yet he finished 13th in MVP voting despite getting hurt and dropping off and only starting 53 games on the year.

Again...what the **** is your point?

It's not semantics. The stats show he had similar statistics every month leading to the most inefficient in history yet apparently only used his positive team impact powers in the month of December while he was a net negative the rest of the year. MVP! MVP! MVP!

The point is in the title Jordan had the most inefficient volume shooting season in history. How many times do you want me to repeat it?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I think we found out why the Wizards were actually good in December...

http://i.imgur.com/SRCuRJd.png

Looks like Jordan owes those MVP votes to Rip Hamilton :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Rip Hamilton plus great team defense and a weak schedule of games would be my guess.

http://i.imgur.com/WvZqPDI.png

They only scored 87.7 points a game yet went 11 and 4.

But yeah guys I'm sure that was really all Jordan. Can we go back in time and give him the MVP?

[DMAVS41]

It's not semantics. The stats show he had similar statistics every month leading to the most inefficient in history yet apparently only used his positive team impact powers in the month of December while he was a net negative the rest of the year. MVP! MVP! MVP!

The point is in the title Jordan had the most inefficient volume shooting season in history. How many times do you want me to repeat it?

You have inferred a lot more than that...and you have been roasted enough.

But I'm curious as to why you think one would have to prove MJ is the only reason the Wizards were good. That burden has never fallen on any player before...and it won't after. So Kobe should give back his MVP in 08 because Pau Gasol and Odom helped tremendously...and he had arguably the GOAT coach?

Makes no sense.

You have created a straw man.

Nobody is saying MJ was the sole reason for the Wizards improvement. We are saying he was the main reason. Which is just obvious to anyone that watched or has the brain power to look at a 19 win season before....30-30 record with....and 7-15 record without.

And those don't even do it real justice because the MJ we are talking about, constantly repeated now, was the pre injury 25/6/5 that had a bit of a spring to hi step and played both ends of the floor.

So....where was the MJ team play and leadership? Well, it was found in the Wizards winning 18 more games than they did the previous year and being clearly better with MJ on the floor.

Compare that to the Lakers this year and Kobe so far and it's a false comparison that you can't grasp. So far the Lakers are no better than last year without Kobe...and the Lakers are far worse with Kobe on the floor so far.

So when you say it's the same thing as claiming Kobe as a MVP candidate...no, it's just not...and there are objective reasons why that isn't the case.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Update:

The champion

Usage % 36.0
TS%: .468

The challenger

Usage% 36.4
TS% .475

Can Kobe Bryant unseat Michael Jordan as the most inefficient chucker in league history???

[Velocirap31]

The East was all about defense in those days. Remember the Pistons wouldn't let teams score 70 points over a good stretch. The Nash' Phoenix Suns changed everything.

[Mr Feeny]

Update:

The champion

Usage % 36.0
TS%: .468

The challenger

Usage% 36.4
TS% .475

Can Kobe Bryant unseat Michael Jordan as the most inefficient chucker in league history???

He already has him beat. You can hide behind ts all you want but 37%fg is where it's at:confusedshrug:

Cry:cry:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And those don't even do it real justice because the MJ we are talking about, constantly repeated now, was the pre injury 25/6/5 that had a bit of a spring to hi step and played both ends of the floor.


When was Jordan injured exactly and how did his efficiency numbers change pre and post injury for the year 2002?

[Mr Feeny]

When was Jordan injured exactly and how did his efficiency numbers change pre and post injury for the year 2002?

So some research instead of wasting everybody's time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So some research instead of wasting everybody's time.

Well said Mr. Feeny...if you are going to make claims back it up with research.

If you are going to claim Jordan was injured and thus that impacted his efficiency back it up by showing his pre and post injury efficiency numbers.

You are very smart.

[juju151111]

Well said Mr. Feeny...if you are going to make claims back it up with research.

If you are going to claim Jordan was injured and thus that impacted his efficiency back it up by showing his pre and post injury efficiency numbers.

You are very smart.
What's the Wizards record without the cancer Mj. Garbage ass 36 year old Kobe only makes 37% of his shots. The Wizards had a better record then the thrash ads lakers and Mj was 3 years older. This guy out here shooting 37% haaaa:lol 40 year old Mj shot Luke 44% . Checkbe