Why do people discredit Kobe so much?

[talkingconch]

Its weird it takes 17 season for some of you to realize how good this guy is. Some of you wait for him to have an awful game just to criticize him. Some of you play the ''sidekick'' rings game. then theres an article by broussard saying he opposes the coaching staff (lol), and all the sheep flock to it. Sure he takes one to many shots sometimes but what he's accomplished is astounding.

This guy will be missed after he retires.

[9erempiree]

This is why I class him above MJ for his overall body of work and the hate. While they were kissing the other guy's butt, they hate on Kobe.

[StateOfMind12]

He accomplished a lot because he was put in a great situation and with a great franchise with the Lakers. You are kidding if you think he would have had the same success anywhere else. His teams were always far more dominant than the rest of the league when he won titles and he has never won in any other type of scenarios.

Kobe as a player is overrated which is why Kobe fans never talk about anything else other than his accomplishments. Nevertheless, I still have him as a top 10 player of all-time, probably 8th or 9th.

[talkingconch]

He accomplished a lot because he was put in a great situation and with a great franchise with the Lakers. You are kidding if you think he would have had the same success anywhere else.

Kobe as a player is overrated which is why Kobe fans never talk about anything else other than his accomplishments. Nevertheless, I still have him as a top 10 player of all-time, probably 8th or 9th.
post makes no sense. you can say the same about duncan, jordan, bill russell, shaq.

Next.

[StateOfMind12]

post makes no sense. you can say the same about duncan, jordan, bill russell, shaq.

Next.
Not really. None of those players played on teams where they completely rip every team off by trading Kwame for Gasol.

Kobe was begging and demanding for a trade when the team was bad, none of those guys ever did that.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They discredit Kobe because he began threatening Jordan's legacy in his early 20s. It's been a losing battle since. It's like hating the internet.

[TheMan]

They discredit Kobe because he began threatening Jordan's legacy in his early 20s. It's been a losing battle since. It's like hating the internet.
He still comes up short:oldlol:

A case can be made for MJ, KAJ or Bill Russell being GOAT, even Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Wilt Chamberlain have a case. Those are your ellite of the elite.

Kobe MAYBE cracks the top 10 right now.

DEAL WITH IT

[AlphaWolf24]

They discredit Kobe because he began threatening Jordan's legacy in his early 20s. It's been a losing battle since. It's like hating the internet.


- yup....especialy after the "changing o the gaurd game"...when Kobe dropped 42 points on MJ in 1 half....

- combined with teenage Kobe merking MJ's Bull's....it was clear that many in the NBA community felt dey Jimmies get Rustled watching Kobe dominate the L.

[ripthekik]

He accomplished a lot because he was put in a great situation and with a great franchise with the Lakers. You are kidding if you think he would have had the same success anywhere else. His teams were always far more dominant than the rest of the league when he won titles and he has never won in any other type of scenarios.

Kobe as a player is overrated which is why Kobe fans never talk about anything else other than his accomplishments. Nevertheless, I still have him as a top 10 player of all-time, probably 8th or 9th.
How about Lebron who could win only after joining up a star-stacked team? Everything you said there applied.

[White Mamba]

They discredit Kobe because he began threatening Jordan's legacy in his early 20s. It's been a losing battle since. It's like hating the internet.

rep added:applause:

[poido123]

- yup....especialy after the "changing o the gaurd game"...when Kobe dropped 42 points on MJ in 1 half....

- combined with teenage Kobe merking MJ's Bull's....it was clear that many in the NBA community felt dey Jimmies get Rustled watching Kobe dominate the L.

It's funny that you are stupid enough to think Kobe is betterthan Jordan :lol:

KObe's fans are as insecure and clueless as Kobe himself.

[jstern]

Probably because unlike the typical top ten players, Kobe's accomplishments have so many negatives associated with it. Ill explain more when not on my phone.

[swag2011]

Because he's outlasted all his peers who they said were better than him( ai, vince carter, tmac)
Because he"s still a top 3/4 player 17 years in while their favorite player has declined lol
Because he plays for the GOAT franchise
Because he completely destroyed or embarrassed their favorite team or player
Because he has 5 rings and they are scared that he has an opportunity to win more

Not even gunna talk about the million other accolades, but when u are successful, that brings hate. Especially since no one expected him to be this good for this long.

It is what is. Deep down they secretly love him and enjoy watching him and will miss him when he's gone

[KungFuJoe]

Kobe is great. He's got all the accolades, trophies, titles, you name it. His longevity is amazing.

But, watching him play, watching him shoot bad shot after bad shot after bad shot, making his teammates just stand around watch, and then he complains when they don't contribute down the stretch, makes me wanna :facepalm

Kobe just has never been one to "go with the flow" of the game. He's either taking over the game or he's hurting his team.

[red1]

This is why I class him above MJ for his overall body of work and the hate. While they were kissing the other guy's butt, they hate on Kobe.

They discredit Kobe because he began threatening Jordan's legacy in his early 20s. It's been a losing battle since. It's like hating the internet.

http://i.sharefa.st/wxItyg8ofzLz.gif

[Ne 1]

Shaq played with the Lakers and Bill Russell played in a 8 team league with the best team ever, Jordan had a stacked team.

Duncan is the most underrated top ten goat player he's should be top 4 in everyone's lists.
And don't forget Jordan won in the watered-down 90s. The NBA declined greatly after 1988 and it was the perfect opportunity for a "GOAT" level player to step up and scoop up the championships in the post Magic/Bird era.

[red1]

How about Lebron who could win only after joining up a star-stacked team? Everything you said there applied.
What does this thread have to do with lbj? Do ever have anything else on your mind?

[Legends66NBA7]

What does this thread have to do with lbj? Do ever have anything else on your mind?

While he does do that a lot because he's a hater, other players were also brought up in this thread.

Jordan, Russell, Shaq...

[red1]

While he does do that a lot because he's a hater, other players were also brought up in this thread.

Jordan, Russell, Shaq...
ok?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What does this thread have to do with lbj? Do ever have anything else on your mind?

Not really about Lebron, but any of the tired criticism that the collective hate machine has come up with in regards to Kobe 99% of the time applies to every other legendary player in NBA history usually humorously enough to an even higher degree.

[Legends66NBA7]

ok?

:oldlol:

I'm not saying it makes sense, but altogether trying to discredit any player what they have done doesn't make sense to begin with.

[Jacks3]

Why Kobe's 30,000 pts are average:http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/06/how-kobes-all-time-record-is-average/

Is Kobe hurting the Lakers: http://sportsjerks.net/2012/12/09/30000-points-nowhere-kobe-bryant-hurting-lakers/

Laker problems stem from Kobe: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8763408/nba-opposing-gm-coach-says-los-angeles-lakers-problems-stem-kobe-bryant-shooting-too-much

Kobe's ego is Lakers big problem: http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/kobe-bryant-ego-hampers-dwight-hoard-los-angeles-lakers-downfall-121812

And those are just from the last week or so. :oldlol:

Seriously, this dude is putting up 30/5+/5/2 on amazing efficiency AND has the best +/- in the league...in his 17th season with 52,000+ minutes on his legs...after 5 Championships...and he's still getting so much hate?

Ridiculous.

[poido123]

Its weird it takes 17 season for some of you to realize how good this guy is. Some of you wait for him to have an awful game just to criticize him. Some of you play the ''sidekick'' rings game. then theres an article by broussard saying he opposes the coaching staff (lol), and all the sheep flock to it. Sure he takes one to many shots sometimes but what he's accomplished is astounding.

This guy will be missed after he retires.

I'll remember him as one the biggest frauds in NBA history. A guy who is propped up by his fans to be far better than he actually is. A guy with acclomplishments that are mixed of tainted awards. One being an All defensive second team in front of guys like Iguodala and Marion in 2011-2012 is a joke. The 2011 all defensive first team(her shouldn't of been on the All D first team let alone the second)where Bryant was picked ahead of Artest ho didn't even make it. The last few years Kobe has been gifted awards and now has as many All defensive first teams as Jordan and Payton :facepalm: That is a travesty in itself and anyone who knows basketball will tell you that Bryant even in his peak wasn't half the defender Jordan or Payton was.

[poido123]

Not really about Lebron, but any of the tired criticism that the collective hate machine has come up with in regards to Kobe 99% of the time applies to every other legendary player in NBA history usually humorously enough to an even higher degree.

I don't put Kobe in a "legendary" status. His playoffs performances has been anything but remarkable like any of the legends have had before him. Tell me, what would your explanation be as to why Kobe gets so much hate more than any other star player in the league?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'll remember him as one the biggest frauds in NBA history. A guy who is propped up by his fans to be far better than he actually is. A guy with acclomplishments that are mixed of tainted awards. One being an All defensive second team in front of guys like Iguodala and Marion in 2011-2012 is a joke. The 2011 all defensive first team(her shouldn't of been on the All D first team let alone the second)where Bryant was picked ahead of Artest ho didn't even make it. The last few years Kobe has been gifted awards and now has as many All defensive first teams as Jordan and Payton :facepalm: That is a travesty in itself and anyone who knows basketball will tell you that Bryant even in his peak wasn't half the defender Jordan or Payton was.

AI and Marion are forwards....... Kobe is a guard. :facepalm

[TheMan]

:wtf:
Why Kobe's 30,000 pts are average:http://wagesofwins.com/2012/12/06/how-kobes-all-time-record-is-average/

Is Kobe hurting the Lakers: http://sportsjerks.net/2012/12/09/30000-points-nowhere-kobe-bryant-hurting-lakers/

Laker problems stem from Kobe: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8763408/nba-opposing-gm-coach-says-los-angeles-lakers-problems-stem-kobe-bryant-shooting-too-much

Kobe's ego is Lakers big problem: http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/kobe-bryant-ego-hampers-dwight-hoard-los-angeles-lakers-downfall-121812

And those are just from the last week or so. :oldlol:

Seriously, this dude is putting up 30/5+/5/2 on amazing efficiency AND has the best +/- in the league...in his 17th season with 52,000+ minutes on his legs...after 5 Championships...and he's still getting so much hate?

Ridiculous.
Maybe if he led them to a winning record playing with the best center in the league would help...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't put Kobe in a "legendary" status. His playoffs performances has been anything but remarkable like any of the legends have had before him. Tell me, what would your explanation be as to why Kobe gets so much hate more than any other star player in the league?

If you don't think its "remarkable" for a 22 year old player to put a 33/7/7 line while shooting .514/.357/.769 against the #1 rated 98.0 Def Rated 2001 Spurs then I would just say ignorance.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html

[tpols]

:wtf:
Maybe if he led them to a winning record playing with the best center in the league would help...
What about Dwight though? He's considered better than kobe and is in his prime.. Where's his blame. LOL

[Flash31]

Theres several reasons why.

Kobe is one of the greatest sg of all time and one of the best players BUUUT...

Hes not better than MJ or even close to him no matter how much people try to prop him up to be.
KOBE NEVER gets blame for the LAKERS shortcomings when they're losing or in a bad spot.It's always either the coach's fault,other players,the system,either he's injured,got the flu,tired,something.But its apparently not his fault.

He jacks up alot of shots and has extremely poor shot selection at times and becomes KOBE ball when he decides its time for him to take over rather than play within the system and take over.When he misses alot of shots but scores more than anybody else its ok cause nobody else what scoring much according to kobe fans.He's known to take his whole team out of rhythm and games and just play my ball,my shots,my team ball.He has more defensive selections than anybody else yet gets lit up by guards and somehow its not his fault and somehow he played solid defense.


The number one reason people discredit Kobe is his stans.When the team wins,it's Kobe,when they lose its everybody elses fault besides Kobe's.

[ripthekik]

:wtf:
Maybe if he led them to a winning record playing with the best center in the league would help...
If he's the supposedly best center in the league, shouldn't he be the one getting all the blame, as he's not doing his part? :rolleyes:

[poido123]

If you don't think its "remarkable" for a 22 year old player to put a 33/7/7 line while shooting .514/.357/.769 against the #1 rated 98.0 Def Rated 2001 Spurs then I would just say ignorance.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2001_WCF.html

In his prime, playing with shaq who opened up the floor for him, I'd say a good effort but not remarkable. MJ playing with shaq in his prime? would do the same thing and be more dominant with better percentages.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

In his prime, playing with shaq who opened up the floor for him, I'd say a good effort but not remarkable. MJ playing with shaq in his prime? would do the same thing and be more dominant with better percentages.

Well go ahead and show me all of those truly remarkable Jordan series against sub 100 defensive rated teams in the playoffs...

:confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

The number one reason people discredit Kobe is his stans.When the team wins,it's Kobe,when they lose its everybody elses fault besides Kobe's.

From what I have seen online, that's more the reason for every great player past and present, not just Kobe.

[swag2011]

The number one reason people discredit Kobe is his stans.When the team wins,it's Kobe,when they lose its everybody elses fault besides Kobe's.

You know whats funny about this? When kobe wins all the haters say its cuz of his teammates and in spite of kobe and when they lose its all kobe's fault.

[juju151111]

Well go ahead and show me all of those truly remarkable Jordan series against sub 100 defensive rated teams in the playoffs...

:confusedshrug:
U mad because ur boy was 2nd option for 3 rings and has played look garbage in most of his finals series. This fool been to like 7 finals and only got 2 final mvp:lol :lol :lol :lol :oldlol: :roll:

[poido123]

Well go ahead and show me all of those truly remarkable Jordan series against sub 100 defensive rated teams in the playoffs...

:confusedshrug:

Your missing the point. Kobe and Shaq were in their prime, shaq opening the floor for Kobe to do as he pleases. And again, if you put Jordan in the same position as Kobe he would do the same, if not more with better percentages.

[ripthekik]

And again, if you put Jordan in the same position as Kobe he would do the same, if not more with better percentages.
Prove it?

If not, I can say if you put Kobe in the 90's Bulls, he can win 8 rings as well.:confusedshrug: Since it's all speculation what's the point?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Your missing the point. Kobe and Shaq were in their prime, shaq opening the floor for Kobe to do as he pleases. And again, if you put Jordan in the same position as Kobe he would do the same, if not more with better percentages.

Couldn't actually find Jordan putting up "remarkable" numbers against sub 100 defenses could you?

:oldlol:

[PJR]

Kobe isn't subject to any more irrational criticism than any other NBA star (past or present). Hop off his dick, sheesh. :oldlol:

[chazzy]

good effort but not remarkable
Prime example right here :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Couldn't actually find Jordan putting up "remarkable" numbers against sub 100 defenses could you?

:oldlol:

:oldlol: League defensive rating in 2011 was 107.6 (107.6 pts/100 possessions). That is EXACTLY the same as it was in '96. In '97 the league Drtg was 106.7 and in '98 it was 105.

From 1996-98, Jordan won 2 MVP's and 3 Finals MVP's. Looks pretty impressive to me. :confusedshrug:

[AussieG]

Kobe is great. He's got all the accolades, trophies, titles, you name it. His longevity is amazing.

But, watching him play, watching him shoot bad shot after bad shot after bad shot, making his teammates just stand around watch, and then he complains when they don't contribute down the stretch, makes me wanna :facepalm

Kobe just has never been one to "go with the flow" of the game. He's either taking over the game or he's hurting his team.
This.

[Micku]

He is sightly overrated.

He gets a lot of comparisons to MJ, which is understandable because Kobe's style is virtually equal to Jordan. There are a few differences that set them apart. One of the big ones is shot selection. There are times where Kobe plays very well and the offensive flow is great, but there are other times where he goes hero ball and just dribble to a corner while the defense is on him and shoot a bad shot. He did this more often than Jordan it seems, and it's very frustrating and he hurts his team.

And there are things that the media and some of his fans say that overrates him. But you have to ignore that and just enjoy his game because he is what he is. There are plenty of media and fans say that overrate someone. Like Melo, calling him the best pure scorer. Wtf does that mean? Scoring skills or efficient scoring? I listened to someone calling him the top 10 best pure scoring of all time.

Just today I was listening to a podcast that said Kobe being this good in his season 17 is remarkable, which I agree. But he compared him to Jordan, and said that he would his season 17 over Jordan's season 10 because his percentage went down. But he ignored the facts Jordan just came back after retiring for about a year and half, and he average 30 ppg with 49.5% shooting the very next season. There are stuff like that where it's annoying.

So, it's mainly the media and fans trying to hype him up when he isn't as good as the hype, but still great. If you ignore that, then accept Kobe what he is, then it's pretty good to watch. Especially this season since he is old and have a lot of mileage. You have to give credit where credit is due with that. It's a rare thing to watch.

[ihoopallday]

I like Kobe, but damn a lot of his fans are just downright annoying. Yes, even MJ and LeBron fans are annoying, but I see more Kobe fans express it. Anyways, success comes with hate.

[poido123]

Couldn't actually find Jordan putting up "remarkable" numbers against sub 100 defenses could you?

:oldlol:

Do you take yourself seriously? Your trying to discredit the GOAT, and prop up Kobe who is barely a top 10 all time player, :facepalm:

While it might hurt you to realise this fact, no matter what statistic or figure you want to throw at me, kobe in nearly every aspect is inferior to Jordan.



For that one remarkable series of Bryant of 33/7/7 here is Jordan's career playoffs averages

Jordan's career playoff averages upon retirement in 1993 (24 series and 111 playoff games in total) were 35.8 pts/6.7 reb/6.7 ast/2.4 stl/1.1 blk/51.5% FG. Basically a 36/7/7/2.4/1.1/52% career playoff average through age 30.

Now f**k off Kobe stan :coleman:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2001 Spurs defense >>>>>>>>>> 2011 League average defense
2001 Spurs defense >>>>>>>>>> Average Jordan playoff defense

:facepalm

[scandisk_]

http://kepeusa.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/120621_lebron_title_trophy-nbcsports-story-612.jpg



LBJ fans are goin to have a field days once he grabs his second title and second FINALS MVP. :oldlol:

[Ken_Masters]

People claim that Bryant is in the same class of Jordan and some fans even call him better? Please. I don't even like LeBron but even i know that LeBron will go down as a better ball player than Bryant. Heck, maybe even Durant. Kobe has 5 rings we all know that, but if you ask me who is a better ball player between LeBron and Kobe i would say LeBron. So if LeBron is better than Kobe is or has ever been, how can Kobe be better than or in the same class as Jordan? Makes no sense. Kobe can score and that's pretty much it. He is overrated in every other aspect of basketball.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

2001 Spurs defense >>>>>>>>>> 2011 League average defense
2001 Spurs defense >>>>>>>>>> Average Jordan playoff defense

:facepalm

2001 Spurs = 105 DRtg in the playoffs. Jordan has faced literally dozens of teams w/ better defenses than the 2001 Spurs. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2001 Spurs = 105 DRtg in the playoffs. Jordan has faced literally dozens of teams w/ better defenses than the 2001 Spurs. :oldlol:

1st round vs Twolves

98.3
82.8
103.9
92.3

2nd round vs Mavs

87.4
100.8
98.1
121.3
94.4

Prior to getting humiliated by Kobe and friends their playoff def rating was 97.7, But yeah we should probably ignore that and the 82 game regular season and pretend that since Kobe trashed them in that series they were actually not that great of a defense.

:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

1st round vs Twolves

98.3
82.8
103.9
92.3

2nd round vs Mavs

87.4
100.8
98.1
121.3
94.4

:confusedshrug:

So you're saying they were a ~sub 110+ team against the Lakers? :eek:

Guess that's what happens when your backcourt is decimated w/ injuries. :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

Theres several reasons why.

Kobe is one of the greatest sg of all time and one of the best players BUUUT...

Hes not better than MJ or even close to him no matter how much people try to prop him up to be.
KOBE NEVER gets blame for the LAKERS shortcomings when they're losing or in a bad spot.It's always either the coach's fault,other players,the system,either he's injured,got the flu,tired,something.But its apparently not his fault.

He jacks up alot of shots and has extremely poor shot selection at times and becomes KOBE ball when he decides its time for him to take over rather than play within the system and take over.When he misses alot of shots but scores more than anybody else its ok cause nobody else what scoring much according to kobe fans.He's known to take his whole team out of rhythm and games and just play my ball,my shots,my team ball.He has more defensive selections than anybody else yet gets lit up by guards and somehow its not his fault and somehow he played solid defense.


The number one reason people discredit Kobe is his stans.When the team wins,it's Kobe,when they lose its everybody elses fault besides Kobe's.


- You forgot to put..." In MY HORRIBLE OPINION"
in front of your post.....You compare Kobe to MJ.....and talk about shooting too much/bad shots....etc..etc..

- You must have never watched Jordan play then.....he was by far the biggest ballhogg in the history of the league.

- career TS%...MJ 54% Kobe 52%...whooptity dooo dahhh!! ( and MJ played half his career in the 80's....where every perimeter player shot 53%FG)





- brushes shoulder...next

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So you're saying they were a ~sub 110+ team against the Lakers? :eek:

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:confusedshrug:

110.8
106.3
123.2
119.4

:confusedshrug:

I have no idea what you think your point is. It's impossible to dominate a elite defense because by virtue of doing so it cancels out the 82 game regular season and 2 playoff series of elite defense that preceded it?

:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

110.8
106.3
123.2
119.4

:confusedshrug:

It's impossible to dominate a elite defense because by virtue of doing so it cancels out the 82 game regular season and 2 playoff series of elite defense that preceded it?

:facepalm

It's possible. When your missing your best perimeter defender(s). :oldlol:

Can you explain what happened to Kobe's "domination" vs. a 2008 Celtics playoff team w/ a 112 DRtg?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's possible. When your missing your best perimeter defender(s). :oldlol:

Can you explain what happened to Kobe's "domination" vs. a 2008 Celtics playoff team w/ a 112 DRtg?

No I can't because the 2008 Celtics never had a 112 DRtg.

:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No I can't because the 2008 Celtics never had a 112 DRtg.

:facepalm

You're right. It was a 104 DRtg. Jordan faced a '92 Blazers team in the Finals w/ the same defensive rating - and shredded them. Please explain.

[guy]

DRTG is such a stupid argument to use.

On average, DRTG was about 107.7 from 1985-1998, the years Jordan played in the playoffs. From 1997-2012, the years Kobe played in the playoffs, it was 105.5. Even if DRTG is the end all be all about what was a better defensive era, thats only about 2.2 more points allowed per 100 possessions. And another thing, I didn't even look up the difference in conferences but the East in both eras played a more grind-it out defense emphasized style then the West did so that difference is probably even smaller.

But according to some, that little difference is the reason for one player to average 33/6/6 on 49 FG%/57 TS%/50 eFG% with much lesser offensive teammates to take attention away from him while the other player averages 26/5/5 on 45%/54 TS%/48 eFG% with much better offensive teammates to take attention away from him? Completely stupid.

[fpliii]

DRTG is such a stupid argument to use.

On average, DRTG was about 107.7 from 1985-1998, the years Jordan played in the playoffs. From 1997-2012, the years Kobe played in the playoffs, it was 105.5. Even if DRTG is the end all be all about what was a better defensive era, thats only about 2.2 more points allowed per 100 possessions. And another thing, I didn't even look up the difference in conferences but the East in both eras played a more grind-it out defense emphasized style then the West did so that difference is probably even smaller.

But according to some, that little difference is the reason for one player to average 33/6/6 on 49 FG%/57 TS%/50 eFG% with much lesser offensive teammates to take attention away from him while the other player averages 26/5/5 on 45%/54 TS%/48 eFG% with much better offensive teammates to take attention away from him? Completely stupid.

Here's a spreadsheet that might be useful:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdGJZdVI5X0dySzNJWm51NkZ2UU1sS lE

there are z-scores (# of standard deviations away from mean) for each DRtg in column H, so it's adjusted for differences in league averages/variances.

[I.R.Beast]

Kobe is great. He's got all the accolades, trophies, titles, you name it. His longevity is amazing.

But, watching him play, watching him shoot bad shot after bad shot after bad shot, making his teammates just stand around watch, and then he complains when they don't contribute down the stretch, makes me wanna :facepalm

Kobe just has never been one to "go with the flow" of the game. He's either taking over the game or he's hurting his team.
5 rings....why argue wih the results?

[Rysio]

when your the best theres always going to be haters

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

DRTG is such a stupid argument to use.

On average, DRTG was about 107.7 from 1985-1998, the years Jordan played in the playoffs. From 1997-2012, the years Kobe played in the playoffs, it was 105.5. Even if DRTG is the end all be all about what was a better defensive era, thats only about 2.2 more points allowed per 100 possessions. And another thing, I didn't even look up the difference in conferences but the East in both eras played a more grind-it out defense emphasized style then the West did so that difference is probably even smaller.

But according to some, that little difference is the reason for one player to average 33/6/6 on 49 FG%/57 TS%/50 eFG% with much lesser offensive teammates to take attention away from him while the other player averages 26/5/5 on 45%/54 TS%/48 eFG% with much better offensive teammates to take attention away from him? Completely stupid.

Yup. Just look at the defensive numbers from 2009-2011. DRtg is nearly identical to that of/from 1996-98.

Difference being, Jordan was STILL more efficient, won more MVP's, and Final MVP's.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're right. It was a 104 DRtg. Jordan faced a '92 Blazers team in the Finals w/ the same defensive rating - and shredded them. Please explain.

Because you are comparing the 08 Celtics playoff D rating with the Blazers 92 regular season D rating. I see no reason why playoff D rating would trump 82 games of the regular season, but for the record the Blazers D rating in the playoffs was 110.1. :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because you are comparing the 08 Celtics playoff D rating with the Blazers 92 regular season D rating. I see no reason why playoff D rating would trump 82 games of the regular season, but for the record the Blazers D rating in the playoffs was 110.1. :facepalm

But by your logic, you cannot dismiss the regular season. You're confusing yourself. :oldlol:

I see no problem comparing a playoff and regular season defense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

DRTG is such a stupid argument to use.

On average, DRTG was about 107.7 from 1985-1998, the years Jordan played in the playoffs. From 1997-2012, the years Kobe played in the playoffs, it was 105.5. Even if DRTG is the end all be all about what was a better defensive era, thats only about 2.2 more points allowed per 100 possessions. And another thing, I didn't even look up the difference in conferences but the East in both eras played a more grind-it out defense emphasized style then the West did so that difference is probably even smaller.

But according to some, that little difference is the reason for one player to average 33/6/6 on 49 FG%/57 TS%/50 eFG% with much lesser offensive teammates to take attention away from him while the other player averages 26/5/5 on 45%/54 TS%/48 eFG% with much better offensive teammates to take attention away from him? Completely stupid.

Try looking at who Kobe actually faced and Jordan actually faced rather than vague leave averages and it should be pretty clear.

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

Game 1 15 for 31
Game 2 4 for 15
Game 3 14 for 25
Game 4 9 for 35
Game 5 11 for 31

MJ vs 93 Knicks

Game 1 10 for 27
Game 2 12 for 32
Game 3 3 for 18
Game 4 18 for 30
Game 5 11 for 24
Game 6 8 for 24

[longtime lurker]

The reason why people irrationally discredit Kobe are two things:
1) They're obsessed Jordan stans who are threatened by Kobe and the comparisons to Jordan. Which is weird that they would spend so much time discrediting Kobe if they really considered that there's no argument that he's anywhere close to Jordan.

2) Kobe has a lot of success and it pisses people off that he's been so successful because maybe their favourite player hasn't or because Kobe hasn't always played the way they want him to. Trust me if Kobe didn't have any rings they could easily just discredit him as a great individual player but not a winner. But because he has hardware and accolades to back him up they have to look for anything to discredit him which leads often leads to ridiculous arguments

[juju151111]

Because you are comparing the 08 Celtics playoff D rating with the Blazers 92 regular season D rating. I see no reason why playoff D rating would trump 82 games of the regular season, but for the record the Blazers D rating in the playoffs was 110.1. :facepalm
Mj shredded them in the regular season too tho. Drtg was proven stupid when garbage teams from 00s are better defensively then 96 bulls.

[Rysio]

Try looking at who Kobe actually faced and Jordan actually faced rather than vague leave averages and it should be pretty clear.

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

Game 1 15 for 31
Game 2 4 for 15
Game 3 14 for 25
Game 4 9 for 35
Game 5 11 for 31

MJ vs 93 Knicks

Game 1 10 for 27
Game 2 12 for 32
Game 3 3 for 18
Game 4 18 for 30
Game 5 11 for 24
Game 6 8 for 24
boom /thread

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But by your logic, you cannot dismiss the regular season. You're confusing yourself. :oldlol:

I'm not dismissing the regular season the Celtics had a 98.9 def rating in the regular season, the Blazers 104.2. For the post season both of those numbers jumped up by about 6. They are not comparable. :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

Try looking at who Kobe actually faced and Jordan actually faced rather than vague leave averages and it should be pretty clear.

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

Game 1 15 for 31
Game 2 4 for 15
Game 3 14 for 25
Game 4 9 for 35
Game 5 11 for 31

MJ vs 93 Knicks

Game 1 10 for 27
Game 2 12 for 32
Game 3 3 for 18
Game 4 18 for 30
Game 5 11 for 24
Game 6 8 for 24
I'll give you the Heat, but MJ was injured in 93.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not dismissing the regular season the Celtics had a 98.9 def rating in the regular season, the Blazers 104.2. For the post season both of those numbers jumped up by about 6. They are not comparable. :confusedshrug:

And the Celts were worse in the playoffs w/ a 104 drtg. Once again, Jordan shredded plenty of teams w/ better defensive-ratings in the postseason.

[juju151111]

I'm not dismissing the regular season the Celtics had a 98.9 def rating in the regular season, the Blazers 104.2. For the post season both of those numbers jumped up by about 6. They are not comparable. :confusedshrug:
What was the Jazz drtg against the bulls in 97 and 98 series?

[I.R.Beast]

I'm still waiting on bryant to be given credit for just 1 of his rings. Smh...Jordan got 6 rings hogging the ball and punching teammates and was loved for it... Kobe gets 5 rings his way and gets hated for it....I dont get it....Doesnt matter if you like his shot selection or not... He made it work,

[swi7ch]

without help (meaning no shaq or phil etc), here's how his seasons went in 3 straight years:

* lost in the first round
* didn't make the playoffs
* lost in the first round... then demanded to be traded


lbj had no help in cleveland and all he did was routinely take them deep into the playoffs and even managed to reach the finals once

[STATUTORY]

And the Celts were worse in the playoffs w/ a 104 drtg. Once again, Jordan shredded plenty of teams w/ better defensive-ratings in the postseason.

can we even name a 6ft5+ athletic wing defender that MJ had to go through?

MJ spent his prime posting up diminutive PGs.

[juju151111]

can we even name a 6ft5+ athletic wing defender that MJ had to go through?

MJ spent his prime posting up diminutive PGs.
Mj post up Clyde drexler who is 6'7.

[JellyBean]

Its weird it takes 17 season for some of you to realize how good this guy is. Some of you wait for him to have an awful game just to criticize him. Some of you play the ''sidekick'' rings game. then theres an article by broussard saying he opposes the coaching staff (lol), and all the sheep flock to it. Sure he takes one to many shots sometimes but what he's accomplished is astounding.

This guy will be missed after he retires.

So true. Kobe is going to be missed greatly when he retires. I think about of people hate or discredit Kobe because they don't understand him.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What was the Jazz drtg against the bulls in 97 and 98 series?

Mediocre

Def Rtg: 104.0 (9th of 29)
Def Rtg: 105.4 (17th of 29)

[juju151111]

Mediocre

Def Rtg: 104.0 (9th of 29)
Def Rtg: 105.4 (17th of 29)
No I said the series against the bulls. What was the dtrg or what did they hold the bulls too ppg wise? Simple question

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Mediocre

Def Rtg: 104.0 (9th of 29)
Def Rtg: 105.4 (17th of 29)

Those are regular season ratings (about equal to what the drtg was for the '08 Celts in the postseason). He asked what were they in the series vs. the Bulls.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not a mindreader. Post the numbers yourself. :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not a mindreader. Post the numbers yourself. :confusedshrug:

You were when you were digging up regular season and postseason numbers for me. What happened? :confusedshrug:

[Godzuki]

i used to dog Kobe because he was a no conscience chucker. he'd still be shooting after already being like 3-17fg's regardless if his team won or lost. he seemed to be playing more for himself than his team way too often. this year however i have a lot of respect for him since his shot selection has been much better without nearly as much selfishness, and he's matured a lot as a leader. i've seen a lot of recent Kobe interviews and he really seems like he's matured a lot where his views on the game and leading seem much wiser.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You were when you were digging up regular season and postseason numbers for me. What happened? :confusedshrug:

I overestimated your intelligence.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Anyway, the Jazz had 104.5 def rating, Juju.

Jordan averaged 32/6/7 on 46% shooting. Shredded. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Anyway, the Jazz had 104.5 def rating, Juju.

Jordan averaged 32/6/7 on 46% shooting. Shredded. :oldlol:

Wow that's really great counterpoint to Kobe's 33/7/7 on 51% shooting against the 01 Spurs.

You guys should put your head together more often. A couple of straight geniuses.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wow that's really great counterpoint to Kobe's 33/7/7 on 51% shooting against the 01 Spurs.

You guys should put your head together more often. A couple of straight geniuses.

But, Kobe and his Lakers faced a Boston team that averaged a defensive rating of 104~ in the playoffs. What happened? :confusedshrug:

DRtg :bowdown:

[guy]

Try looking at who Kobe actually faced and Jordan actually faced rather than vague leave averages and it should be pretty clear.

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

Game 1 15 for 31
Game 2 4 for 15
Game 3 14 for 25
Game 4 9 for 35
Game 5 11 for 31

MJ vs 93 Knicks

Game 1 10 for 27
Game 2 12 for 32
Game 3 3 for 18
Game 4 18 for 30
Game 5 11 for 24
Game 6 8 for 24

Okay. I took fplIII's link and was able to sort it out for the actual teams they played. Jordan's opponents average DRTG was 105.4 and Kobe's was 102.4. 3 points more per 100 possessions. Thats not much more then what I said.

So again, according to you, that little difference is the reason for one player to average 33/6/6 on 49 FG%/57 TS%/50 eFG% with much lesser offensive teammates to take attention away from him while the other player averages 26/5/5 on 45%/54 TS%/48 eFG% with much better offensive teammates to take attention away from him? Completely stupid.

By the way, I find it funny that in one of the few bad playoff series of Jordan's that you point to, he arguably had an all-time great playoff game that is better then ANY of Kobe's in his whole playoff career i.e. the 54 point game vs. the Knicks. :oldlol: Only in a Jordan vs. Kobe comparison would this be the case.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But, Kobe and his Lakers faced a Boston team that averaged a defensive rating of 104~ in the playoffs. What happened? :confusedshrug:

DRtg :bowdown:

Just for the record you guys are attempting to equate the 08 Celtics with 97 and 98 Jazz defensively???

:roll:

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm

[KG215]

Just for the record you guys are attempting to equate the 08 Celtics with 97 and 98 Jazz defensively???

:roll:

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm
How is that any different than you trying to equate some shit lottery teams from the 00's to playoff and championship caliber teams from the 80s and 90s?

Kobe d***riders.... :facepalm

[juju151111]

Just for the record you guys are attempting to equate the 08 Celtics with 97 and 98 Jazz defensively???

:roll:

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm
You have scrub teams from 00s that are rated higher then the 96 bulls:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How is that any different than you trying to equate some shit lottery teams from the 00's to playoff and championship caliber teams from the 80s and 90s?

Kobe d***riders.... :facepalm

link?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You have scrub teams from 00s that are rated higher then the 96 bulls:applause:

I never mentioned the 96 Bulls. Neither Kobe nor Jordan faced them in the playoffs.

[KG215]

link?
It's exactly what you do every time you use DRtg to prop-up what Kobe accomplished and discredit what Jordan accomplished. Because, according to your precious DRtg stat, there are awful teams from the 00's with better DRtg's than some of the best defensive teams in the 80s and 90s.

[STATUTORY]

It's exactly what you do every time you use DRtg to prop-up what Kobe accomplished and discredit what Jordan accomplished. Because, according to your precious DRtg stat, there are awful teams from the 00's with better DRtg's than some of the best defensive teams in the 80s and 90s.
defense and the 80s shouldn't be in the same sentence. No team played any systematic defense in the 80s. If you actually watched the tapes that fact would be abundantly clear, defensive schemes and rotations were basically nonexistent it was bascially stick to your man and an occasional double team. There's a reason why average fg% was .500+ back in that decade. best defensive teams in the 80s don't mean squat

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's exactly what you do every time you use DRtg to prop-up what Kobe accomplished and discredit what Jordan accomplished. Because, according to your precious DRtg stat, there are awful teams from the 00's with better DRtg's than some of the best defensive teams in the 80s and 90s.

Its really nothing like it at all. The 97 Jazz were mediocre in the playoffs and in the regular season. The 98 Jazz were great in the postseason and mediocre in the regular season and Jordan put up subpar efficiency numbers against them in the Finals. There isn't a single coherent thought in the entire thought process.

[juju151111]

I never mentioned the 96 Bulls. Neither Kobe nor Jordan faced them in the playoffs.
Your point. ou said you can't compare the Jazz to celtics even tho the Drtg is the same because is known that the Celtics are better. Which means your dumbass stats is wrong. I added the 96 bulls compared to some scrub teams from the early 00s to prove that the drtg is horseshi.:applause: Kobe fans been trying to put Kobe on Mj level since 2001. 12 years later they still failing hard.:roll: :lol This freaking bum has some of the worst final performacnes ever.:lol :oldlol:

[juju151111]

Its really nothing like it at all. The 97 Jazz were mediocre in the playoffs and in the regular season. The 98 Jazz were great in the postseason and mediocre in the regular season and Jordan put up subpar efficiency numbers against them in the Finals. There isn't a single coherent thought in the entire thought process.
You are completly missing the point.:facepalm

[juju151111]

defense and the 80s shouldn't be in the same sentence. No team played any systematic defense in the 80s. If you actually watched the tapes that fact would be abundantly clear, defensive schemes and rotations were basically nonexistent it was bascially stick to your man and an occasional double team. There's a reason why average fg% was .500+ back in that decade. best defensive teams in the 80s don't mean squat
Stay off that crack son.

[KG215]

Its really nothing like it at all. The 97 Jazz were mediocre in the playoffs and in the regular season. The 98 Jazz were great in the postseason and mediocre in the regular season and Jordan put up subpar efficiency numbers against them in the Finals. There isn't a single coherent thought in the entire thought process.
Interesting, because that's how I and others interpret your line of thinking almost every time you go off on one of your DRtg tirades.

[madmax]

defense and the 80s shouldn't be in the same sentence. No team played any systematic defense in the 80s. If you actually watched the tapes that fact would be abundantly clear, defensive schemes and rotations were basically nonexistent it was bascially stick to your man and an occasional double team. There's a reason why average fg% was .500+ back in that decade. best defensive teams in the 80s don't mean squat

:applause:
wait for these nostalgia fools to equate "great defense" with 80's Pistons and their hackball dirty tactics:lol There was no coherent defense played in the 80's - FACT

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Interesting, because that's how I and others interpret your line of thinking almost every time you go off on one of your DRtg tirades.

Yet here you are still with no specifics :confusedshrug:

[STATUTORY]

:applause:
wait for these nostalgia fools to equate "great defense" with 80's Pistons and their hackball dirty tactics:lol There was no coherent defense played in the 80's - FACT

It's a good thing we have vid tapes to check those fools

these game footage are like dinosaur bones to test their faith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJZYTkjnDlU

just watch that game, random 80s game I was able to find, and check how many UNCONTESTED shots, wide open layups there are.

That's 80s ball.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Your point. ou said you can't compare the Jazz to celtics even tho the Drtg is the same because is known that the Celtics are better. Which means your dumbass stats is wrong. I added the 96 bulls compared to some scrub teams from the early 00s to prove that the drtg is horseshi.:applause: Kobe fans been trying to put Kobe on Mj level since 2001. 12 years later they still failing hard.:roll: :lol This freaking bum has some of the worst final performacnes ever.:lol :oldlol:

We know the Celtics were better BECAUSE OF their elite level regular season defensive rating. The only thing you guys are proving is judging the strength of a defense based on the limited sample size of the playoffs is dumb which is exactly what I told when you first attempted to do so. :facepalm

[Tking714]

Kobe is great. He's got all the accolades, trophies, titles, you name it. His longevity is amazing.

But, watching him play, watching him shoot bad shot after bad shot after bad shot, making his teammates just stand around watch, and then he complains when they don't contribute down the stretch, makes me wanna :facepalm

Kobe just has never been one to "go with the flow" of the game. He's either taking over the game or he's hurting his team.

That's what you're supposed to do. Lol @ go with the flow. The point is to dominate every damn second

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe vs '12 Thunder - 108 defensive-rating: 31ppg on 41% shooting

DRtg :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe vs '11 Mavs - 105 defensive-rating: 23ppg on 45% shooting

DRtg :bowdown:

[juju151111]

We know the Celtics were better BECAUSE OF their elite level regular season defensive rating. The only thing you guys are proving is judging the strength of a defense based on the limited sample size of the playoffs is dumb which is exactly what I told when you first attempted to do so. :facepalm
? But according to you that's how they were playing g currently. Not to mention the playoffs are the best teams in the league and is more intense/more focused then the regular season. :applause: Ask any great player about playoff and regular season.:applause:

[juju151111]

Kobe vs '11 Mavs - 105 defensive-rating: 23ppg on 45% shooting

DRtg :bowdown:
:applause: that Goat What about the 2010 Celtics lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

? But according to you that's how they were playing g currently. Not to mention the playoffs are the best teams in the league and is more intense/more focused then the regular season. :applause: Ask any great player about playoff and regular season.:applause:

If you made the illogical decision to only look at playoff defensive ratings and ignore the 82 games that preceded it, the gap between the defenses Jordan and Kobe faced in the playoffs would remain. Jordan's first 3 finals opponents playoff D rating were 110+, the 04 Pistons were 92. The trend will remain. If anything the gap is probably bigger :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

Its really nothing like it at all. The 97 Jazz were mediocre in the playoffs and in the regular season. The 98 Jazz were great in the postseason and mediocre in the regular season and Jordan put up subpar efficiency numbers against them in the Finals. There isn't a single coherent thought in the entire thought process.
So does that mean Kobe's regular season stats have been subpar hishis whole career ?32,6,7 46% is subpar now:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Just for the record you guys are attempting to equate the 08 Celtics with 97 and 98 Jazz defensively???

:roll:

Jordan mythologists... :facepalm

But, how else would you rate team defense(s) if not by their ability to limit scoring on a per possession basis? Surely you don't mean WATCHING the games?!?!?! :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So does that mean Kobe's regular season stats have been subpar hishis whole career ?32,6,7 46% is subpar now:lol

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998_finals.html

:facepalm

[secund2nun]

Because he is extremely overrated that's why.

[juju151111]

If you made the illogical decision to only look at playoff defensive ratings and ignore the 82 games that preceded it, the gap between the defenses Jordan and Kobe faced in the playoffs would remain. Jordan's first 3 finals opponents playoff D rating were 110+, the 04 Pistons were 92. The trend will remain. If anything the gap is probably bigger :confusedshrug:
I never said anything about that. I think your Dtrg is garbage stat in he first place. I only entertain it because thats yur only arguement. Im talking about the 98 Jazz and the 08 Celtics. What happened to Kobe and tha 104 rating. He should of shredded them.:applause: dat drtg

[juju151111]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1998_finals.html

:facepalm
sorry thats 97 stats. Anyways what was the 97 Jazz DTRG. It says the 97 Jazz is rated higher in Dtrg http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/1997.html Im confused now. So Mj played better against the better drtg:wtf: dat dtrg:applause:

[TheMan]

can we even name a 6ft5+ athletic wing defender that MJ had to go through?

MJ spent his prime posting up diminutive PGs.
Steve Smith, Gerald Wilkins, Michael Cooper, Clyde Drexler, Alex English, Dan Majerle, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Brian Shaw, Eddie Jones, Rolando Blackman, Bryon Russell, Bruce Bowen, etc etc

Speaking of Bruce Bowen, he said in an interview than MJ was by far his toughest opponent to defend against.

You sir are a know nothing idiot. Stop talking out of yer ass and actually contribute something. If you know anything about basketball and defense, a lot of teams chose the strategy of putting smaller quicker guys on MJ to stop his penetration, they'd rather have him shoot over the top of them than have him break down the defense by getting to the lane since he was too quick for bigger SGs.

Kobe on the other hand has bigger guys on him to contest his shot because he was never the quick on his first step, even then, he got small guys on him like Eric Snow who handled Bryant pretty well in the Finals...Eric fvcking Snow:facepalm

[juju151111]

Steve Smith, Gerald Wilkins, Michael Cooper, Clyde Drexler, Alex English, Dan Majerle, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Brian Shaw, Eddie Jones, Rolando Blackman, Bryon Russell, Bruce Bowen, etc etc

Speaking of Bruce Bowen, he said in an interview than MJ was by far his toughest opponent to defend against.

You sir are a know nothing idiot. Stop talking out of yer ass and actually contribute something. If you know anything about basketball and defense, a lot of teams chose the strategy of putting smaller quicker guys on MJ to stop his penetration, they'd rather have him shoot over the top of them than break down the defense by getting to the lane since he was too quick for bigger SGs.

Kobe on the other hand has bigger guys on him to contest his shot because he was never the quick on his first step, even then, he got small guys on him like Eric Snow who handled Bryant pretty well in the Finals...Eric fvcking Snow:facepalm
courtney Lee too:lol and jkidd

[TheMan]

courtney Lee too:lol and jkidd
:bowdown: when I hear those name I right away think DEFENSE!!!

Anyways, these Kobe stans are so lost that they need to take out a garbage stat like drtg to try to say Bryant is better because they just can't compare stats straight up. Like I posted before, Bruce Bowen, known as one of the best defensive players ever, said MJ was his toughest cover, and he was facing a almost mid 30s Jordan. Imagine if he defended a prime MJ. He defended a prime Kobe but he still thought a past his prime MJ was tougher:roll:

These Kobe stans need their math formulas to make their case:oldlol:

[Micku]

defense and the 80s shouldn't be in the same sentence. No team played any systematic defense in the 80s. If you actually watched the tapes that fact would be abundantly clear, defensive schemes and rotations were basically nonexistent it was bascially stick to your man and an occasional double team. There's a reason why average fg% was .500+ back in that decade. best defensive teams in the 80s don't mean squat

It's because they shot pretty good at the midrange and shoot for the layup. They didn't shoot the 3 point shot, and they hardly guard the long range ball too with the exception of guys like Larry Bird or Danny Ainge or something. Like for Danny Ainge, his FG% actually went down when his 3pt shot went up.

If you look at the eFG percentage, that adds extra to the 3pt shot, you'll see it's basically the same if not better in the modern era than back then. I won't say that the defense didn't get better though, but you have to take into account that the offense did change. As you went to the 90s, and especially the 00s, ppl stop taking the easy shot and went for the 3.


And in terms of Drtg, it's probably best to judge them within their specific years, and shouldn't be compared across eras due pacing, rules, and changing offense of the league at the time. Obviously a team like the 96 Bulls with a 101.8 being compared to the Nets team in 2003 with a Drtg of 98.1 is a bit off. You have to take into account the different rule changing with the shorten 3pt line, offensive philosophy, and etc.

It's also no coincidence that the league's scoring increased when handchecking of perimeter players was banned.


Following the 2003-2004 season, you see, the NBA banned hand-checking of perimeter players. The league hoped that cracking down on pushing and grabbing would give the game's offensive stars more space to roam, increase scoring, and create a more fan-friendly, aesthetically pleasing game. Scoring has, as intended, increased in the subsequent seasons.

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2006/11/the_defense_doesnt_rest.html

However, whatever it's bad offense or good defense really is debate to be had. I do remember that ppl were complaining that the league became a bit more selfish because there were more isos and bad shot selection. It probably was a mixture of both.

Anyway, for DRtg, it depends on how good the offense is. A team like the Knicks of 93 had a 99.7 DRtg in the regular season, but a 107.0 DRtg in the playoffs. They had a better DRtg in 92 in the playoffs? Did it matter? Well, in 92 it didn't because they were the best in the league. In 93, they weren't as good defensively as in there regular season stats in points allowed and FG%, but still solid enough despite the DRtg. They went up against the top 10 offensive teams in the league for the first two rounds, and then went up against the Bulls in the third. It doesn't really make them a bad defensive team though.

[STATUTORY]

It's because they shot pretty good at the midrange and shoot for the layup. They didn't shoot the 3 point shot, and they hardly guard the long range ball too with the exception of guys like Larry Bird or Danny Ainge or something. Like for Danny Ainge, his FG% actually went down when his 3pt shot went up.

If you look at the eFG percentage, that adds extra to the 3pt shot, you'll see it's basically the same if not better in the modern era than back then. I won't say that the defense didn't get better though, but you have to take into account that the offense did change. As you went to the 90s, and especially the 00s, ppl stop taking the easy shot and went for the 3.


And in terms of Drtg, it's probably best to judge them within their specific years, and shouldn't be compared across eras due pacing, rules, and changing offense of the league at the time. Obviously a team like the 96 Bulls with a 101.8 being compared to the Nets team in 2003 with a Drtg of 98.1 is a bit off. You have to take into account the different rule changing with the shorten 3pt line, offensive philosophy, and etc.

It's also no coincidence that the league's scoring increased when handchecking of perimeter players was banned.



http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2006/11/the_defense_doesnt_rest.html

However, whatever it's bad offense or good defense really is debate to be had. I do remember that ppl were complaining that the league became a bit more selfish because there were more isos and bad shot selection. It probably was a mixture of both.

Anyway, for DRtg, it depends on how good the offense is. A team like the Knicks of 93 had a 99.7 DRtg in the regular season, but a 107.0 DRtg in the playoffs. They had a better DRtg in 92 in the playoffs? Did it matter? Well, in 92 it didn't because they were the best in the league. In 93, they weren't as good defensively as in there regular season stats in points allowed and FG%, but still solid enough despite the DRtg. They went up against the top 10 offensive teams in the league for the first two rounds, and then went up against the Bulls in the third. It doesn't really make them a bad defensive team though.

comon son, u think people would just stopped going to the well if there was still water?

u can't get a wide open shot from the midrange these days because of the increased defensive intensity. the fact they were getting those open looks in the 80s just proves how lax defense was then.

There are no easy shots in the league anymore. this is a league of athletes, u place a Tyson chandler back in the 80s and he be swatting so many balls into the stand they would have take intermissions in the game to inflate new ones.

The reason guys take more 3s now days because zone defense forces players to settle for those. Ainge ain't driving on no one in this league.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So does that mean Kobe's regular season stats have been subpar hishis whole career ?32,6,7 46% is subpar now:lol

Efficiency is a good overall measure of stats, but since our buddy Yao demands a statistic that adjusts for pace, lets use one that does. PER. :)

Jordan's carrer average PER: 28.9. Kobe's avg PER since SHAQ LEFT: 24.3 -- Mike kicks Kobe's ass in PER, so by his own measure, he lose's again! lol


Advanced Metrics :bowdown:

[TheMan]

comon son, u think people would just stopped going to the well if there was still water?

u can't get a wide open shot from the midrange these days because of the increased defensive intensity. the fact they were getting those open looks in the 80s just proves how lax defense was then.

There are no easy shots in the league anymore. this is a league of athletes, u place a Tyson chandler back in the 80s and he be swatting so many balls into the stand they would have take intermissions in the game to inflate new ones.

The reason guys take more 3s now days because zone defense forces players to settle for those. Ainge ain't driving on no one in this league.
Because we live in an era of dominant big men:facepalm Ever heard of Ewing, Mutombo, Eaton, Olajuwon, Robinson, Shaq, KAJ, Parrish, MMalone, Mourning, etc

There were shotblockers back in those days, in fact, big men were allowed to man the paint. It's ok; we understand you just started watching NBA basketball. We'll educate you young cats who act like you know it all but judging by your posts and neg status, you don't know shit.

[raptorfan_dr07]

There's your answer right there:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284615'

You idiots want him to be compared to the greatest who ever played the game yet don't want the scrutiny that comes with it.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Kobe never recovered image wise when he forced Shaq out of LA, leaving 2-3 more titles off the table.
You can be a rapist, but being a bad teammate, the fans will never forgive.

[KenneBell]

The fans will never forgive.
Really? So that why the #24 jersey has probably been the most purchased jersey over the past 6 years? Is that why his fanbase is so rabid that people on various internet forum have to troll and downplay his accomplishments? Is that why he's one of the most popular athletes in the world?

[ihatetimthomas]

For one, he plays on the Lakers. The Lakers are the most hated outside of their fans because of how dominate the franchise is and how much they continually win. Its become "cool" to hate on the Lakers.

Secondly, it was him being labeled the next MJ. Basically setting him up for failure because reaching MJ's height is near impossible. So people will call him a failure and say this and that when in reality, he is one of the greatest to ever play the game.

He is also not a very likable player. Cocky attitude, sometimes seems fake to media, although he pretty much keeps it real with the media nowadays. The stigma of him running Shaq out of LA also rubs people the wrong way. The whole rape things didn't help either.

He will always have the cloud above his head because he has played with some incredible talent, but people often like to overlook how much help you need to win titles and most of the best in the game have had incredible talent.

My advice is to enjoy it while it lasts. He is one of the best ever and still one of the best in the league. Not many guys can play at the level he is playing at for this long. I dont get why guys like to hate because it just blinds them on watching a spectacular player. I've had the luxury of watching him his entire career. I fee the same with guys like Lebron. I love the Lakers, but I love to watch great basketball and basketball players. He will be gone in a blink of the eye so watch while you can.

[TheMan]

For one, he plays on the Lakers. The Lakers are the most hated outside of their fans because of how dominate the franchise is and how much they continually win. Its become "cool" to hate on the Lakers.

Secondly, it was him being labeled the next MJ. Basically setting him up for failure because reaching MJ's height is near impossible. So people will call him a failure and say this and that when in reality, he is one of the greatest to ever play the game.

He is also not a very likable player. Cocky attitude, sometimes seems fake to media, although he pretty much keeps it real with the media nowadays. The stigma of him running Shaq out of LA also rubs people the wrong way. The whole rape things didn't help either.

He will always have the cloud above his head because he has played with some incredible talent, but people often like to overlook how much help you need to win titles and most of the best in the game have had incredible talent.

My advice is to enjoy it while it lasts. He is one of the best ever and still one of the best in the league. Not many guys can play at the level he is playing at for this long. I dont get why guys like to hate because it just blinds them on watching a spectacular player. I've had the luxury of watching him his entire career. I fee the same with guys like Lebron. I love the Lakers, but I love to watch great basketball and basketball players. He will be gone in a blink of the eye so watch while you can.
:applause:

[Round Mound]

I Think Kobe Is the Most Skilled Player Offensively In the Game but He Is Not the Best and Hasn`t Been, Ever. The Problem With Kobe is That His Fans are Just Trolls That Hype Him Out To a Level He Isn`t In. His Fans, Thats The Problem.

[scandisk_]

For one, he plays on the Lakers. The Lakers are the most hated outside of their fans because of how dominate the franchise is and how much they continually win. Its become "cool" to hate on the Lakers.

Secondly, it was him being labeled the next MJ. Basically setting him up for failure because reaching MJ's height is near impossible. So people will call him a failure and say this and that when in reality, he is one of the greatest to ever play the game.

He is also not a very likable player. Cocky attitude, sometimes seems fake to media, although he pretty much keeps it real with the media nowadays. The stigma of him running Shaq out of LA also rubs people the wrong way. The whole rape things didn't help either.

He will always have the cloud above his head because he has played with some incredible talent, but people often like to overlook how much help you need to win titles and most of the best in the game have had incredible talent.

My advice is to enjoy it while it lasts. He is one of the best ever and still one of the best in the league. Not many guys can play at the level he is playing at for this long. I dont get why guys like to hate because it just blinds them on watching a spectacular player. I've had the luxury of watching him his entire career. I fee the same with guys like Lebron. I love the Lakers, but I love to watch great basketball and basketball players. He will be gone in a blink of the eye so watch while you can.

BRAVO :applause:

[STATUTORY]

I Think Kobe Is the Most Skilled Player Offensively In the Game but He Is Not the Best and Hasn`t Been, Ever. The Problem With Kobe is That His Fans are Just Trolls That Hype Him Out To a Level He Isn`t In. His Fans, Thats The Problem.
says the guy that hypes up barkley to top 10 all time rankings...