Last couple games has shown how having a great pg makes scoring much easier for kobe

[Rysio]

now i can finally explain jordan's high numbers and see how he had such an easy time scoring playing with one of the most unselfish and best passers of all time in pippen for all those years. :applause:

[devin112]

Such a obvious fact would only be a startling revelation to a Kobe stan.

[KOBE143]

agree..

Sometimes people here forget how shitty Jordan was without Pippen.. 20ppg on 40% shooting at best.. :facepalm

Imagine Kobe with Prime Pippen, I can see 40ppg on 55%fg easily..

[28renyoy]

The amusing thing is that Durant is on the verge of a 30 ppg season on 50/40/90 65 TS% with a chucking PG

[KOBE143]

The amusing thing is that Durant is on the verge of a 30 ppg season on 50/40/90 65 TS% with one of the best pg in the league
agree

That's what a great pg can do to a great player.. Relieving some of the pressure in the offense and making scoring much easier.. There's no doubt, Durant games had become easier since the arrival of Westbrook.. Thanks for the proof.. Sometimes you're really a helpful poster.. :lol

[I<3NBA]

agree..

Sometimes people here forget how shitty Jordan was without Pippen.. 20ppg on 40% shooting at best.. :facepalm

Imagine Kobe with Prime Pippen, I can see 40ppg on 55%fg easily..
lol.

[Walker]

agree..

Sometimes people here forget how shitty Jordan was without Pippen.. 20ppg on 40% shooting at best.. :facepalm

Imagine Kobe with Prime Pippen, I can see 40ppg on 55%fg easily..
Congratulations!
You just managed to lift ISH to a whole new level of stupid!

:facepalm

[Young X]

agree..

Sometimes people here forget how shitty Jordan was without Pippen.. 20ppg on 40% shooting at best.. :facepalm

Imagine Kobe with Prime Pippen, I can see 40ppg on 55%fg easily..

Jordan's highest scoring season came without Pippen. :confusedshrug:

[G-Funk]

agree..

Sometimes people here forget how shitty Jordan was without Pippen.. 20ppg on 40% shooting at best.. :facepalm

Imagine Kobe with Prime Pippen, I can see 40ppg on 55%fg easily..
ur an idiot

[konex]

Funny how people said Kobe couldn't play with Nash even though Kobe's breen great off the ball in Olympics and ASGs :confusedshrug:

That said, Kobe's dominating regardless of who they've started next to him this year. Nash will obviously impact his assists (and turnovers) but hopefully he has more energy late in games...

[Rysio]

agree..

Sometimes people here forget how shitty Jordan was without Pippen.. 20ppg on 40% shooting at best.. :facepalm

Imagine Kobe with Prime Pippen, I can see 40ppg on 55%fg easily..

people are gonna think this is a troll post because you got kobe in your username but i agree with you a 100%. its no coincidence that every season in jordans career he played without pippen he had a losing record and missed the playoffs half the time and was shooting in the low 40s fg%. most of praise that jordan gets should go to scottie. going by numbers and facts he turned a decent scorer into a legend.

[DonDadda59]

people are gonna think this is a troll post because you got kobe in your username but i agree with you a 100%. its no coincidence that every season in jordans career he played without pippen he had a losing record and missed the playoffs half the time and was shooting in the low 40s fg%. most of praise that jordan gets should go to scottie. going by numbers and facts he turned a decent scorer into a legend.

When did ISH turn into the twilight zone? :confusedshrug:

I'm scared :(

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe's effiency with Nash

11/14
10/20
16/41
14/24
13/24
9/18

73/141
51.8 FG%
5/6 games with 50+ FG%

[Foster5k]

Kobe Stan: Wow! I never knew having a great point guard makes scoring easier.

Regular fan: :facepalm

[Rysio]

Kobe's effiency with Nash

11/14
10/20
16/41
14/24
13/24
9/18

5/6 games with 50+ FG%
should've been 6/6 but the refs wouldnt let that to happen. :facepalm

[CAstill]

Kobe Stan: Wow! I never knew having a great point guard makes scoring easier.

Regular fan: :facepalm


:facepalm
You Kobe haters don't know jack.
You regular fans are wack and usually are the one who are always
wrong in discussion. This is obviously in retaliation to all the years
of detractors harping on FG% and his shot output since he has
never had the convenience of playing with a good pg.

[DonDadda59]

since he has never had the convenience of playing with a good pg.

Never never? :biggums:

So I imagined this:

http://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/383113.jpg

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Kobe+Bryant+Gary+Payton+USA+Basketball+Senior+ezIi CrbKre7l.jpg

But please, don't let the facts interfere with the excuse-making festival. Carry on

[BlueandGold]

Never never? :biggums:

So I imagined this:

http://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/383113.jpg

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Kobe+Bryant+Gary+Payton+USA+Basketball+Senior+ezIi CrbKre7l.jpg

But please, don't let the facts interfere with the excuse-making festival. Carry on
Van Excel was probably the best PG Kobe played with before Nash. Payton in LA was horrible, a shell of himself and never picked up the triangle.

[tpols]

Never never? :biggums:

So I imagined this:

http://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/383113.jpg

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Kobe+Bryant+Gary+Payton+USA+Basketball+Senior+ezIi CrbKre7l.jpg

But please, don't let the facts interfere with the excuse-making festival. Carry on
Van exel way before his prime and an old ass Gary payton? LOL.. Are you playing dumb or is this shit for real?

[DonDadda59]

Van Excel was probably the best PG Kobe played with before Nash. Payton in LA was horrible, a shell of himself and never picked up the triangle.

Payton played and started in all 82 games that year while putting up 14.5 PPG/4.2 RPG/5.5 APG on 47%FG/33% from 3. All this as the 3rd option behind Shaq and Kobe. That team could've won the championship if it hadn't been for well... you know :oldlol:

And it's always hilarious to me that Kobe stans have the nerve to complain about Kobe's supporting casts (even when he was part of the supporting cast for a big chunk of his career) when no other superstar in NBA history has had as many great teammates as consistently as him. Most NBA greats were drafted by bottom feeder teams with little to no support and they had to suffer through hard times before getting a chance to team up with guys that Kobe was given straight out of high school. I mean the Lakers were a 55-60 win team during the time Bean was riding the bench.

I'm just looking forward to when the Lakers inevitably shit the bed in the playoffs (assuming they make it) and people like you tell the rest of us about how Steve Nash couldn't figure out Mike D'Antoni's system :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Van exel way before his prime and an old ass Gary payton? LOL.. Are you playing dumb or is this shit for real?

Wait, wait, wait... so 25-26 year old Nick Van Exel wasn't in his prime yet... 35 year old Gary Payton was an 'old ass'... that makes 39 year old Steve Nash what exactly? :confusedshrug:

Think before you type.

[RRR3]

Wait, wait, wait... so 25-26 year old Nick Van Exel wasn't in his prime yet... 35 year old Gary Payton was an 'old ass'... that makes 39 year old Steve Nash what exactly? :confusedshrug:

Think before you type.
Not to mention Payton put up 20/4/8 the year before and NVE was an Allstar

[tpols]

And he put up 8/5 on 36 percent in the playoffs. :lol

But that's besides the point. The point here is that Gary payton wasn't a traditional point guard in the mold of Steve Nash. He was more of a scoring guard and not a true facilitator.. Like a Kevin Johnson or Russell Westbrook.. He wasn't a stockton or kidd or Nash.

Having a great facilitator which payton and van exel were not obviously helps kobe and everyone else on the team.. Point flies over your head again..

[tpols]

Wait, wait, wait... so 25-26 year old Nick Van Exel wasn't in his prime yet... 35 year old Gary Payton was an 'old ass'... that makes 39 year old Steve Nash what exactly? :confusedshrug:

Think before you type.
Kobe wasn't in his prime.. He was 17/18 years old. This is the first time we've seen kobe as a complete player still somewhat in his prime with a great facilitator/pg. Nash has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill. Apples and oranges compared to payton who most definitely relied more on great physical gifts though he was still a skilled post scorer and passer.. Not a great facilitator though which is the point of this thread.

[elementally morale]

I just want to say Kobe a few times. Kobe. Yay. Kobekobekobe. Kobe. OK.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe wasn't in his prime.. He was 17/18 years old. This is the first time we've seen kobe as a complete player still somewhat in his prime with a great facilitator/pg. Nash has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill. Apples and oranges compared to payton who most definitely relied more on great physical gifts though he was still a skilled post scorer and passer.. Not a great facilitator though which is the point of this thread.

Alright, so when the Lakers implode again this season I hope all the Kobe stans stay consistent with the above point when it comes down to excuse-making time. I don't want to hear about how Steve Nash was a broken down shadow of his former self who couldn't pick up D'Antoni's system. We already have to figure out how the best center in the league magically turned into a scrub after joining up with Kobe, we don't have the resources to investigate how an ageless wonder who "has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill" magically aged overnight.

[tpols]

Alright, so when the Lakers implode again this season I hope all the Kobe stans stay consistent with the above point when it comes down to excuse-making time. I don't want to hear about how Steve Nash was a broken down shadow of his former self who couldn't pick up D'Antoni's system. We already have to figure out how the best center in the league magically turned into a scrub after joining up with Kobe, we don't have the resources to investigate how an ageless wonder who "has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill" magically aged overnight.
Only way the Lakers are losing is with their defense and if Gasol decides to disappear like he's done for a couple years. If they all play up to par should be at least a finals appearance.

[DonDadda59]

Only way the Lakers are losing is with their defense and if Gasol decides to disappear like he's done for a couple years. If they all play up to par should be at least a finals appearance.

Ah, so Gasol is still the go to guy for excuses. Good to know.

And Lakers in the finals... I'll bookmark this :oldlol:

[tpols]

Ah, so Gasol is still the go to guy for excuses. Good to know.

And Lakers in the finals... I'll bookmark this :oldlol:
Gasol played with no heart.. Got dominated by Carl Landry, Dirk, Kenneth fried, and ibaka in consecutive years despite being the tallest, biggest, most skilled power forward in the league. Nash should be able to resurrect him though. I could see Lakers losing because of their weak d and that's it. Offense should be great come playoff time if they stay healthy.

[RRR3]

1987-88 Bulls (Pippen was still a bench player, Sam "Who?" Vincent was PG for half the year, other half seems to have been John Paxson:oldlol: )
Jordan averages 35 PPG on 53.5% FG (.603 TS%) :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Next year, Jordan averages 33 PPG on 53.8%FG (.614 TS%). Pippen is now a starter, but averages 3.5 APG to Jordan's 8.0 APG. OP is a disgrace, Pippen wasn't a PG anyways :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

And he put up 8/5 on 36 percent in the playoffs. :lol

But that's besides the point. The point here is that Gary payton wasn't a traditional point guard in the mold of Steve Nash. He was more of a scoring guard and not a true facilitator.. Like a Kevin Johnson or Russell Westbrook.. He wasn't a stockton or kidd or Nash.

Having a great facilitator which payton and van exel were not obviously helps kobe and everyone else on the team.. Point flies over your head again..
Lol at this Don... guy just saying he played with Gary Payton! Yeah a 35 year old past his prime GP.

[guy]

I hope people realize that it's not that common for a great wing scorer to be paired up with a great PG. This thread is just pointing out another luxury Kobe has had that most players he's compared to did not have.

[DonDadda59]

Lol at this Don...

LOL indeed.


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

ESPN- Ranking the Top 10 Worst NBA Finals Performances Ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst)


I guess GP gets to use the 'old ass' excuse... what was Kobe's? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I hope people realize that it's not that common for a great wing scorer to be paired up with a great PG. This thread is just pointing out another luxury Kobe has had that most players he's compared to did not have.
Yeah Mj didn't have Pippen and Rodman. Kareem didn't have Magic, Oscar, Worthy. Magic didn't have Kareem and Worthy, Russell didn't have something like over 10 HOFers, Wilt didn't have West, Baylor, Goodrich and a total of 9 HOFers, should I go on or does this stuff only count against Kobe Bryant?

[tpols]

LOL indeed.


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

ESPN- Ranking the Top 10 Worst NBA Finals Performances Ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst)


I guess GP gets to use the 'old ass' excuse... what was Kobe's? :confusedshrug:
What does this have to do with Gary payton? You're deflecting from the argument because you know you're wrong. :oldlol:

Gary payton sucked the whole playoffs not just against Detroit. He wasn't a great point guard when he played with Kobe. Your points are straight garbage my dude.

[Deuce Bigalow]

LOL indeed.


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

ESPN- Ranking the Top 10 Worst NBA Finals Performances Ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst)


I guess GP gets to use the 'old ass' excuse... what was Kobe's? :confusedshrug:
The game were he took the fewest shots, they lost by he biggest margin. Why is that? I thought he "chucked it away"?

[Kiddlovesnets]

A great PG makes scoring easier for anyone.

[Doctor Rivers]

LOL indeed.


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

ESPN- Ranking the Top 10 Worst NBA Finals Performances Ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst)


I guess GP gets to use the 'old ass' excuse... what was Kobe's? :confusedshrug:

give it up homeboy

[guy]

Yeah Mj didn't have Pippen and Rodman. Kareem didn't have Magic, Oscar, Worthy. Magic didn't have Kareem and Worthy, Russell didn't have something like over 10 HOFers, Wilt didn't have West, Baylor, Goodrich and a total of 9 HOFers, should I go on or does this stuff only count against Kobe Bryant?

Who said anything about all those players? So you attack my post, which wasnt untrue at all, but not the stupid OP that is seriously implying that Scottie Pippen was some PG and passer close to the level of Steve Nash. :oldlol:

[KOBE143]

Jordan's highest scoring season came without Pippen. :confusedshrug:
I mean when Pippen was still not yet in the league.. Jordan 1st 3 season doesnt count..

[longtime lurker]

What does this have to do with Gary payton? You're deflecting from the argument because you know you're wrong. :oldlol:

Gary payton sucked the whole playoffs not just against Detroit. He wasn't a great point guard when he played with Kobe. Your points are straight garbage my dude.

Not to mention that Payton played in a system that completely took away all his strengths and didn't actually allow him to play point guard. And the Van Exel comment was just :facepalm worthy.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:bowdown:
now i can finally explain jordan's high numbers and see how he had such an easy time scoring playing with one of the most unselfish and best passers of all time in pippen for all those years. :applause:

Obvious agenda is obvious. :roll: And Jordan's numbers were actually BETTER pre-Pippen, so you couldn't be more wrong.

[Purch]

And he put up 8/5 on 36 percent in the playoffs.

But that's besides the point. The point here is that Gary payton wasn't a traditional point guard in the mold of Steve Nash. He was more of a scoring guard and not a true facilitator.. Like a Kevin Johnson or Russell Westbrook.. He wasn't a stockton or kidd or Nash.

Having a great facilitator which payton and van exel were not obviously helps kobe and everyone else on the team.. Point flies over your head again..

Interesting this old man Nash vs Payton thing.

Would you Kobe fans state that the 35 year old payton, was worse than the 37 year old Jason Kidd that was the starting pg for the Mavs championship run?


Looking at pure stats

Kidd: 8/8/4
Payton: 15/6/4


Remember Kidd was the engine that made that mavs teams run

[Horde of Temujin]

Settle down folks. Let get this straight. Kobe is a great player. He is one of the best ever. Top 10, hell, you can even reasonably argue top 5. But he is not better than Jordan.

[Ne 1]

What does this have to do with Gary payton? You're deflecting from the argument because you know you're wrong. :oldlol:

Gary payton sucked the whole playoffs not just against Detroit. He wasn't a great point guard when he played with Kobe. Your points are straight garbage my dude.

Payton didn't fit well in the triangle system all season and he even criticized the offense that Phil ran. Not to mention he was disappointing defensively, especially against Detroit in the Finals, Billups killed him. His game suffered under the triangle because he's a ball dominant PG who plays under an offense that doesn't need a ball dominant PG. Plus, Gary wasn't know for being a catch and shoot player that the triangle needs.

[Bandito]

LOL indeed.


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

ESPN- Ranking the Top 10 Worst NBA Finals Performances Ever (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-Worst)


I guess GP gets to use the 'old ass' excuse... what was Kobe's? :confusedshrug:
thats what happens when defenses collapse on you and dares you to shoot jumpers. Didn't you see those finals? They were playing the passing lanes preventing the ball hitting Shaq down low and daring him to shoot because nobody could shoot to save their life.

[tpols]

Interesting this old man Nash vs Payton thing.

Would you Kobe fans state that the 35 year old payton, was worse than the 37 year old Jason Kidd that was the starting pg for the Mavs championship run?


Looking at pure stats

Kidd: 8/8/4
Payton: 15/6/4


Remember Kidd was the engine that made that mavs teams run
And what about he playoff stats? EIGHT points FIVE assists on 36 percent..

Kidd is totally differ nt from payton.. He was a true facilitator and passer and leader. Straight intangibles. I wouldn't call him 'great' right now based off his numbers since his role is much ore limited and he doesn't handle the ball as much but he is and was much much more of a facilitator than payton was. This takes eyes to see though.

[Purch]

Payton didn't fit well in the triangle system all season and he even criticized the offense that Phil ran. Not to mention he was disappointing defensively, especially against Detroit in the Finals, Billups killed him. His game suffered under the triangle because he's a ball dominant PG who plays under an offense that doesn't need a ball dominant PG. Plus, Gary wasn't know for being a catch and shoot player that the triangle needs.
:pimp:

[guy]

Its hilarious to me that it seems from some of the posts on this thread that people think that Kobe was somehow handicapped up until this point for never having a great PG to play with. They make it seem like many of the wing scorers he's been compared to like Bird, Jordan, T-Mac, Lebron, Wade, Melo, Durant have actually gotten to play with a facilitator like Nash.

[Purch]

And what about he playoff stats? EIGHT points FIVE assists on 36 percent..

Kidd is totally differ nt from payton.. He was a true facilitator and passer and leader. Straight intangibles. I wouldn't call him 'great' right now based off his numbers since his role is much ore limited and he doesn't handle the ball as much but he is and was much much more of a facilitator than payton was. This takes eyes to see though.
O yea he never was as good a distributor as Nash and Kidd. That's because outside of Magic, Stockton, Nash and Kidd there are only a handful of players that have come close to that level of playmaking abilty, like Cp3.

But because of the Op's original point it has to be stated that 96% of the people Kobe is compared to has never played with a playmaker like Kidd or Nash, becaue those guys are rare, and tend to lead their own teams until their past their prime.

[Purch]

And another thing. Payton is a better playmaker than 75% of the starting point guards in leauge history. You can't discredit him by comparing him to two of the best playmakers to ever play the game

[tpols]

And another thing. Payton is a better playmaker than 75% of the starting point guards in leauge history. You can't discredit him by comparing him to two of the best playmakers to ever play the game
Not even close when he played with Kobe.. Which was what was being discussed.

[TheBigVeto]

Payton is the most overrated PG of all time.

[Purch]

Payton is the most overrated PG of all time.
Based on..:confusedshrug:

[MaxFly]

people are gonna think this is a troll post because you got kobe in your username but i agree with you a 100%. its no coincidence that every season in jordans career he played without pippen he had a losing record and missed the playoffs half the time and was shooting in the low 40s fg%. most of praise that jordan gets should go to scottie. going by numbers and facts he turned a decent scorer into a legend.

:facepalm

Seriously, man?

[Purch]

Payton is the most overrated PG of all time.
:confusedshrug:

[STATUTORY]

:confusedshrug:
based on ppl watching him play rook. Payton played the PG the way it wasn't meant to. You don't win chips with a post up point guard in this league

[Purch]

based on ppl watching him play rook. Payton played the PG the way it wasn't meant to. You don't win chips with a post up point guard in this league
Rook :biggums:

[NumberSix]

Gotta love Kobe Stan's and their constant minute-to-minute
goalpost moving

[Rubio2Gasol]

based on ppl watching him play rook. Payton played the PG the way it wasn't meant to. You don't win chips with a post up point guard in this league

Lakers did.

Post up point guard being Kobe.

[CAstill]

Lakers did.

Post up point guard being Kobe.

:rolleyes: more like facilitating playmaker in the triangle.

A great PG would of forced phil to revamp the strengths of the triangle
strategy he was trying to go with.

[Rubio2Gasol]

:rolleyes: more like facilitating playmaker in the triangle.

A great PG would of forced phil to revamp the strengths of the triangle
strategy he was trying to go with.

I know the dude wasn't a point guard.

But the point is how is having a point guard who can post up a bad thing? it's the same as having any other player who can post up. It's an advantage. Play making from the pinch post was the staple of this offense...whether it was a point guard running it or Kobe being the primary play maker.

Payton wasn't a good fit with Kobe, but lets not try to act like point guards posting up isn't the "right way". It's an asset and an advantage for those who can do it.

[Purch]

Payton may have not been Nash/Kidd level in the playmaking department but can you explain to me what makes him not a point guard.

And please don't say posting up because you guys have clearly neglected how great a passer and player Kidd himself was out of the post.

Payton averged somewhere in the assist range basiclly his whole prime, whiles being one the best point guard defener of all time, being a great post player, and a good shooter. How is he overrated or not a pg?

[CAstill]

Being a post up PG isn't a bad thing at all. I was saying Kobe couldn't
be that. The triangle wouldn't allow him to play traditional PG.
He was playmaking with in the offense and did what he could
with the players around him. If they would of had a great pg
from the gate the games would of looked different.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Payton may have not been Nash/Kidd level in the playmaking department but can you explain to me what makes him not a point guard.

And please don't say posting up because you guys have clearly neglected how great a passer and player Kidd himself was out of the post.

Payton averged somewhere in the assist range basiclly his whole prime, whiles being one the best point guard defener of all time, being a great post player, and a good shooter. How is he overrated or not a pg?

I don't know what people are trying to say but here's my take.

In 2003-2004 Payton simply wasn't that good. In fact I am being generous here. When we get over the initial success and his moderately OK regular season play and we start to break down what actually happened you'll see why he humiliated himself in the playoffs.

He never made a cursory attempt to understand the triangle, to learn to play within it. He was GP - overconfident in himself and with injuries to basically every key player , he got to play some loose - free basketball for a circumvented period that translated into him being moderately not bad.

Then we arrive to the playoffs.

He was butting heads with the coaching staff, and he was playing like crap... especially the finals. He played so poorly in the finals, you can't even begin to explain it. Bad defense, terrible offense, and a disgusting attitude. If he didn't come to the Lakers, and Fisher was the starting point guard all year... the Lakers end up with a finals fight (instead of getting embarrased in a 5game sweep), and possibly come out with the chip.

In the playoffs he was quite possibly one of /if not the worst starters in the playoffs, and easily the biggest dissappointment on the Lakers. I mean he averaged like 7/5/3 in 35minutes to go along with 36FG%.

I'm not a fan of stats - but....seriously.

Those kinds of minutes, then add his bad attitude, and you got yourself a mess -- Gary Payton's playoffs is the most underrated aspect when people talk about the 03-04 Laker failures.

I hear Kobe the most (who was magnificant, until the finals), and then of course Malones injury, which is a major factor... but Payton's performance is right up there with Malones injury in terms of why the Lakers got embarrassed come finals.

It got to a point where he was so useless offensively that the Pistons didn't even bother with that garbage. They just doubled and tripled Kobe as the flow went.

What this has to do with him not being a point guard or posting up not being the "true" way of play making is anyone's guess. If that is what people are trying to assert to explain his poor performance or extending that - to assert that you can't have success if your point guard posts up- then those people are idiots.

[CAstill]

You just explained why Kobe stans can bash the haters
when they bring up Payton as a great PG that Kobe has played with.
The Kobe stans then rebuttal with Payton was garbage at the
time of playing with each other and especially in the Playoffs.
Haters than bring up misleading stats that make it seem like
Payton was playing better than he was with no context.
And Obviously at this point in their careers Old Nash> Old Glove.

[Purch]

You just explained why Kobe stans can bash the haters
when they bring up Payton as a great PG that Kobe has played with.
The Kobe stans then rebuttal with Payton was garbage at the
time of playing with each other and especially in the Playoffs.
Haters than bring up misleading stats that make it seem like
Payton was playing better than he was with no context.
And Obviously at this point in their careers Old Nash> Old Glove.
I don't know what you're referring to, but I was referring to the notion that Payton was the most overrated pg of all time and really wasnt a pg

[Purch]

I don't know what people are trying to say but here's my take.

In 2003-2004 Payton simply wasn't that good. In fact I am being generous here. When we get over the initial success and his moderately OK regular season play and we start to break down what actually happened you'll see why he humiliated himself in the playoffs.

He never made a cursory attempt to understand the triangle, to learn to play within it. He was GP - overconfident in himself and with injuries to basically every key player , he got to play some loose - free basketball for a circumvented period that translated into him being moderately not bad.

Then we arrive to the playoffs.

He was butting heads with the coaching staff, and he was playing like crap... especially the finals. He played so poorly in the finals, you can't even begin to explain it. Bad defense, terrible offense, and a disgusting attitude. If he didn't come to the Lakers, and Fisher was the starting point guard all year... the Lakers end up with a finals fight (instead of getting embarrased in a 5game sweep), and possibly come out with the chip.

In the playoffs he was quite possibly one of /if not the worst starters in the playoffs, and easily the biggest dissappointment on the Lakers. I mean he averaged like 7/5/3 in 35minutes to go along with 36FG%.

I'm not a fan of stats - but....seriously.

Those kinds of minutes, then add his bad attitude, and you got yourself a mess -- Gary Payton's playoffs is the most underrated aspect when people talk about the 03-04 Laker failures.

I hear Kobe the most (who was magnificant, until the finals), and then of course Malones injury, which is a major factor... but Payton's performance is right up there with Malones injury in terms of why the Lakers got embarrassed come finals.

It got to a point where he was so useless offensively that the Pistons didn't even bother with that garbage. They just doubled and tripled Kobe as the flow went.

What this has to do with him not being a point guard or posting up not being the "true" way of play making is anyone's guess. If that is what people are trying to assert to explain his poor performance or extending that - to assert that you can't have success if your point guard posts up- then those people are idiots.

Valid points. Do you think that Payton's inabilty to learn the triangle reinforced the idea that Phil wouldn't be able to coach star point guards?

[Rubio2Gasol]

Valid points. Do you think that Payton's inabilty to learn the triangle reinforced the idea that Phil wouldn't be able to coach star point guards?

No.

First of all we need to stop acting like there's some sort of rigid definition of what being a point guard means. There isn't one , there are different styles and different styles would fit different systems.

Phil could coach prime Gary Payton- The triangle would thrive with him actually, just like it would thrive with a range of other great point guards. But this Gary Payton and the role he tried to play just did not fit. He wasn't supposed to be a "star" - he was supposed to complement them.

Never at any point did it seem sensible to switch away from the triangle, which was the only way Payton was going to be accommodated. Phil made the right choice with the exception of enduring with Payton for god knows what reason.

It's simply stupid to say he couldn't coach an elite Point guard when he never coached one. Think about it. You're basically saying because he never had the opportunity to do it - that he couldn't do it.

Maybe he didn't prefer it - but that's fair enough - every coach has their preferences.

[CAstill]

I don't know what you're referring to, but I was referring to the notion that Payton was the most overrated pg of all time and really wasnt a pg

I was talking to Rubio2Gasol or referring to his post on
why Payton was a bad PG when playing with Kobe
which is what this whole thing is about.
If you're talking about Payton being overrated through
his career i would disagree. GP is Town Biznezz!
Teams would kill to have prime GP start for their team.

[CAstill]

Being a PG means you're the guy who directs other players
to their duties. He initiates the offense.

[mikek85]

Nash carrying Kobe just like Shaq carried Kobe. If Kobe played in any other city he would have no rings. Guy is not a leader and is a black hole. He should be thanking Mitch Kupchak every single day for the rest of his life.

Neg me Kobe fans, cause Kobe's lack of leadership and black hole ability has been DOCUMENTED.:rockon:

[DonDadda59]

Kobe wasn't in his prime.. He was 17/18 years old. This is the first time we've seen kobe as a complete player still somewhat in his prime with a great facilitator/pg. Nash has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill. Apples and oranges compared to payton who most definitely relied more on great physical gifts though he was still a skilled post scorer and passer.. Not a great facilitator though which is the point of this thread.


Alright, so when the Lakers implode again this season I hope all the Kobe stans stay consistent with the above point when it comes down to excuse-making time. I don't want to hear about how Steve Nash was a broken down shadow of his former self who couldn't pick up D'Antoni's system. We already have to figure out how the best center in the league magically turned into a scrub after joining up with Kobe, we don't have the resources to investigate how an ageless wonder who "has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill" magically aged overnight.

So... What's the story here? :confusedshrug:

[Graviton]

So... What's the story here? :confusedshrug:


http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx209/theLegionofdoom666/FotoFlexer_Photophildaboss_zpsf1e80138.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx209/theLegionofdoom666/FotoFlexer_Photojordan_zpsd9ef0623.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Kobe's effiency with Nash

11/14
10/20
16/41
14/24
13/24
9/18

73/141
51.8 FG%
5/6 games with 50+ FG%

You got any updates for us playa? How's that efficiency working out. Kobe FINALLY has a great playmaking PG to play with. Those efficiency stats must be off the charts :D