What happened to 20/10 PG's and 20/10 big men?

[Flagrant 2]

David Lee is the only 20/10 big man in the league and 20/10 PG's are no more. The closest PG I can think of is Jrue Holiday.

[STATUTORY]

jrue?! If he's anywhere near those numbers it's cuz he chucking

[Fudge]

Westbrooks the closest 20/10 PG.

[Flagrant 2]

Westbrooks the closest 20/10 PG.
You're right, I'm just so used to his non-pg characteristic ways it's amazing he avg's 8 assists.

[LoneyROY7]

20 and 10 PGs are a rare commodity.

[dunksby]

So if Westbrook averaged two points less and one more assist you would be content? Magic of numbers...

[Flagrant 2]

So if Westbrook averaged two points less and one more assist you would be content? Magic of numbers...
? I'm just wondering where the 20/10 PG's went. :confusedshrug: Westbrook is doing his thing and it's obviously working, got nothing against his game.

[Chapallaz]

With Jrue's youth and the way he's progressing, he'll probably be the next one to get it. Paul will be close when the season's done as well.

Howard and Zach will be close at the end of the year as well. Love and Griffin have a big chance this year.

However, the 20/10 seasons are not as common as you'd say. We've had two players get them in pts/ast over the last 10 seasons: Deron and Paul. Over the last 20? Timmy Hardaway, Paul and Deron. That's it. Last 30? Add Magic, Thomas, KJ and a freak season by Michael Adams with the Nuggets.

So what happened to the 20pts/10 ast seasons: They just don't come along that often. We were spoiled in the 80's, we had Timmy/Adams get a season each in the 90's and then got lucky with Deron/Paul again.

The 20/10 rebounds season comes along more often. Over 100 over the last 20 years.

[Flagrant 2]

With Jrue's youth and the way he's progressing, he'll probably be the next one to get it. Paul will be close when the season's done as well.

Howard and Zach will be close at the end of the year as well. Love and Griffin have a big chance this year.

However, the 20/10 seasons are not as common as you'd say. We've had two players get them in pts/ast over the last 10 seasons: Deron and Paul. Over the last 20? Timmy Hardaway, Paul and Deron. That's it. Last 30? Add Magic, Thomas, KJ and a freak season by Michael Adams with the Nuggets.

So what happened to the 20pts/10 ast seasons: They just don't come along that often. We were spoiled in the 80's, we had Timmy/Adams get a season each in the 90's and then got lucky with Deron/Paul again.

The 20/10 rebounds season comes along more often. Over 100 over the last 20 years.One of the reasons I ask is because this is suppose to be the "PG era" filled with star studded PG's on every team, yet none of them can average 20/10 assists.. But I guess I am just spoiled.

[Chapallaz]

jrue?! If he's anywhere near those numbers it's cuz he chucking
You're not watching games are you? Holiday is playing a great season at age 22. He actually gets a lot of ast if you look at the players he has get to score on his team. Thad is nice but not that great. Turner struggles, he's got a few chuckers who don't care about shot selection and basically no big guy to feed it to inside. So getting almost 10 ast there is quite a feat.

Then his scoring: He rarely gets any calls driving to the hoop, probably due to his age and the fact that he's just became a 1st option. That's where he gets a lil too many to's as well. He's shooting over 45% from the field, over 33% from 3 and has bailed out the Sixers over and over. What happens when your so-called 'chucker' doesn't play? The Sixers end up having some of their real chuckers (JRich, Younbg, Dorell, Hawes) look lost, Thad force the issue, Turner struggling to create and the Sixers losing 4 in a row and falling out of the play off picture.

So, enlighten me sir, why do you consider Jrue to be chucking this season?

[Chapallaz]

One of the reasons I ask is because this is suppose to be the "PG era" filled with star studded PG's on every team, yet none of them can average 20/10 assists.. But I guess I am just spoiled.
You can have a star pg, but if he's surrounded by weak players and no good inside presence, it's hard to rack up 10 ast. Look at Irving.

[Flagrant 2]

You can have a star pg, but if he's surrounded by weak players and no good inside presence, it's hard to rack up 10 ast. Look at Irving.
Good point.

[Burgz V2]

the last generation of PG's (Payton, Stockton, KJ, Timmy Hardaway etc etc) were an exceptional breed that revolutionized the position.

The talent level has caught up and we are seeing the league now with lots of talent at that position which makes it difficult to drop 20 pts and still keep everyone involved.

Big man wise, the league has shifted away from playing inside out in the traditional sense. It is still kind of inside out, but instead of post ups, a lot is initiated off dribble penetration. Plus, again, the past generation of players was extremely exceptional. I don't think we'll every see the talent level in the frontcourt like we did in the 90s (Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, young Timmy D, KG, Barkely etc etc). Unlike the PG position though, the talent has not caught up, they were exceptions, but played throughout the same era and we were extremely fortunate to watch them

[LoneyROY7]

One of the reasons I ask is because this is suppose to be the "PG era" filled with star studded PG's on every team, yet none of them can average 20/10 assists.. But I guess I am just spoiled.

Like Chapallaz just said, there have only been 7 PGs to average 20 and 10 over the last 30 years, therefore it's an extremely high watermark to judge a PG by.

Just because there isn't a PG averaging 20 and 10 doesn't mean there isn't great talent and depth at the position.

[DDensity]

the last generation of PG's (Payton, Stockton, KJ, Timmy Hardaway etc etc) were an exceptional breed that revolutionized the position.

The talent level has caught up and we are seeing the league now with lots of talent at that position which makes it difficult to drop 20 pts and still keep everyone involved.

I disagree. Today's PGs are more athletic and talented than ever. The problem is that very few players understand the concept of playing as a team. There are more ISOs being run now than ever, which is why you see a lot more chucking than you did 20 years ago.

[Chapallaz]

Just because there isn't a PG averaging 20 and 10 doesn't mean there isn't great talent and depth at the position.

Truth. Michael Adams had more 20/10 seasons than Stockton/Payton combined and Timmy only had one as well.

[Whoah10115]

jrue?! If he's anywhere near those numbers it's cuz he chucking


:facepalm

[IGotACoolStory]

Lee could average 20-10. 10 assists that is.

But that's not his job there.

[KobesFinger]

The NBA has changed. Players are more versatile. Guards who can rebound (Kidd, Rondo), bigs who can pass (Gasol brothers). Look at the 2012 Heat. LeBron, a SF, lead the team in assists and rebounds while playing a lot of PF. Maybe Jordan has something to do with this, everyone growing up wanting to be like Mike.

[blablabla]

You can have a star pg, but if he's surrounded by weak players and no good inside presence, it's hard to rack up 10 ast. Look at Irving.
irving just isn't good enough at playmaking to average 10 assists
wall had bad teammates in washington too the last two season and still managed to get 8assists per game

[tmacattack33]

20/10 PG's were always rare. And CP3 is definitely capable right now of doing it, but in LAC he doesn't need to and he is only playing 32 minutes per game. And Westbrook is pretty close to it.

20/10 Big Men used to be somewhat common. Big men suck now though, we all know this.

[blablabla]

The NBA has changed. Players are more versatile. Guards who can rebound (Kidd, Rondo), bigs who can pass (Gasol brothers). Look at the 2012 Heat. LeBron, a SF, lead the team in assists and rebounds while playing a lot of PF. Maybe Jordan has something to do with this, everyone growing up wanting to be like Mike.
fat lever/oscar etc.
divac/wilt/russell/unseld etc.
bird/pippen etc.


nuff said

[Jailblazers7]

With Jrue's youth and the way he's progressing, he'll probably be the next one to get it. Paul will be close when the season's done as well.

Howard and Zach will be close at the end of the year as well. Love and Griffin have a big chance this year.

However, the 20/10 seasons are not as common as you'd say. We've had two players get them in pts/ast over the last 10 seasons: Deron and Paul. Over the last 20? Timmy Hardaway, Paul and Deron. That's it. Last 30? Add Magic, Thomas, KJ and a freak season by Michael Adams with the Nuggets.

So what happened to the 20pts/10 ast seasons: They just don't come along that often. We were spoiled in the 80's, we had Timmy/Adams get a season each in the 90's and then got lucky with Deron/Paul again.

The 20/10 rebounds season comes along more often. Over 100 over the last 20 years.

:applause:

Jrue deserves more credit for the level he has been playing at this season. Props to the 76ers FO for signing him to a long term deal before the season.

[Micku]

I disagree. Today's PGs are more athletic and talented than ever. The problem is that very few players understand the concept of playing as a team. There are more ISOs being run now than ever, which is why you see a lot more chucking than you did 20 years ago.

There's less isos than in the early 00s to me, but still there are a bunch of isos.

20/10 PGs are rare I think. I believe there's only a select few who have done it? Even Steve Nash never done it, but he was capable of doing it. Chris Paul was the only player I think to have done out of the current PGs. He came close last year too. (forgot about Deron Williams)

Westbrook has the potential to do it. He just needs to pass the ball more to Durant, lol.

In terms of big guys with 20/10, you still see that. You saw Kevin Love last year, Howard did it in Orlando last year. Blake Griffin could do it, but the team have been blowing out teams left and right lately. Z-Bo still seems capable.

e

[Sakkreth]

Lol how westbrook manages to average 9 assists. Must be cause of good supporting cast and Durant...

[SacJB Shady]

David Lee have it all

[Cladyclad]

Teams are deeper

Howard
Randolph
Lopez
Bosh
Jefferson

Would all most likely put up those numbers if they were the 1st n only option. When Bogut get it goin Lee's points gon dip.

[D.J.]

20/10 for a big man is much easier for a big man than a point guard. It's much easier to grab 10 rebounds than hoping your teammate makes a shot from 10 of your passes.

[Whoah10115]

:applause:

Jrue deserves more credit for the level he has been playing at this season. Props to the 76ers FO for signing him to a long term deal before the season.



And signing him for less than Ty Lawson.

[bisk]

What happened to 20/10 PGs?
I think there were only 2 PGs in the last 20 years who went 20/10. They are CP3 and Deron. I'm not sure where you saw all these 20/10 PGs last 2 decades.:confusedshrug:

[bdreason]

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/bdreason/act_david_lee_zps599ec679.jpg

22/11/4/1/1 on 54/82%




:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Money 23]

20/10 is SUPER difficult for a PG. Much more difficult than 20/10 for a big guy.

20/10 from a PG is MVP caliber ball.

Game has changed though. No longer really position / floor based. It's all about versatility.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Big men are playing much less role in today's basketball, so its expected that less and less 20/10 big men are available nowadays. 20/10 PG has been a rare scenery even back in the 90s, CP3 was the only player capable of doing this in the last 20 years.

[Chapallaz]

Big men are playing much less role in today's basketball, so its expected that less and less 20/10 big men are available nowadays. 20/10 PG has been a rare scenery even back in the 90s, CP3 was the only player capable of doing this in the last 20 years.
People need to read.

[wally_world]

20pts 10ast would mean the PG was responsible for 40-50+ of the team's points, thats a huge feat to accomplish on a nightly basis.

[I.R.Beast]

You're right, I'm just so used to his non-pg characteristic ways it's amazing he avg's 8 assists.
this is his third season out of five averaging 8 plus assists....

and 20 / 10 pgs are called shooting guard these days because point has become a dirty word in POINT guard

[STATUTORY]

You're not watching games are you? Holiday is playing a great season at age 22. He actually gets a lot of ast if you look at the players he has get to score on his team. Thad is nice but not that great. Turner struggles, he's got a few chuckers who don't care about shot selection and basically no big guy to feed it to inside. So getting almost 10 ast there is quite a feat.

Then his scoring: He rarely gets any calls driving to the hoop, probably due to his age and the fact that he's just became a 1st option. That's where he gets a lil too many to's as well. He's shooting over 45% from the field, over 33% from 3 and has bailed out the Sixers over and over. What happens when your so-called 'chucker' doesn't play? The Sixers end up having some of their real chuckers (JRich, Younbg, Dorell, Hawes) look lost, Thad force the issue, Turner struggling to create and the Sixers losing 4 in a row and falling out of the play off picture.

So, enlighten me sir, why do you consider Jrue to be chucking this season?

maybe I was unfair to him. he lit up the lakers last night. but he just has the look of a chucker ya kno? like when u look at him u can see the whites of his eyes under his cornea

[bluechox2]

weak era for gifted all around players

[miles berg]

The skill level at PG is the lowest I've ever seen it since I started watching closely in 1986.

The league had great, great PGs back in the 80s and 90s.

These days they have Chris Paul and that's about it. Most of the PGs are really just undersized SGs.

League has fallen so much, it's sad.

[Chapallaz]

maybe I was unfair to him. he lit up the lakers last night. but he just has the look of a chucker ya kno? like when u look at him u can see the whites of his eyes under his cornea
No 'I Dunt Kno'. You're talking crap. You have the look of someone who posts too much shit.

[miles berg]

The NBA has changed. Players are more versatile. Guards who can rebound (Kidd, Rondo), bigs who can pass (Gasol brothers). Look at the 2012 Heat. LeBron, a SF, lead the team in assists and rebounds while playing a lot of PF. Maybe Jordan has something to do with this, everyone growing up wanting to be like Mike.

Nothing has changed at all. No PGs today rebound as well as a Fat Lever, Sugar Ray Richardson, or Magic Johnson.

The talent level at PG sucks now, sucks bad. Chris Paul is really it.

[Chapallaz]

Nothing has changed at all. No PGs today rebound as well as a Fat Lever, Sugar Ray Richardson, or Magic Johnson.

The talent level at PG sucks now, sucks bad. Chris Paul is really it.To be fair, to bring Fat Lever up to show current PG's aren't good isn't a good look.
Give me 1 team over the last 15 seasons with worse big men than Fat played with in Denver. When he was in Portland and Dallas his rebounding stats were hardly average for his position.

Wayne Cooper, Danny Schayes, Blair Rasmussen... plus those teams were basically the biggest stat padding, sorry run & gun team ever, prior to that 1990 team led by Michael Adams. Low Fg, loads of shots, loads of 3pt shots, creating long rebounds for guards to get the ball, and even then got totally outrebounded by oppposing teams on most nights.

[Dragonyeuw]

Chris Paul was 20/10 a few years ago and still capable of it, but with his current team he doesn't need to score that much. Rose, Westbrook, and Parker are all scoring points so they won't get 10 assists,Rondo isn't enough of a scorer but of course the assists are there.

[Teanett]

20/10 pg's? :wtf:
how many have there been in the last 20 years?
5?

[Kurosawa0]

20 and 10 PGs are a rare commodity.

Wasn't Chris Paul the last one to do that? Before him I think I remember hearing it was Tim Hardaway.

[Chapallaz]

Wasn't Chris Paul the last one to do that? Before him I think I remember hearing it was Tim Hardaway.
Read the replies and then post. :rolleyes: