Dwight is averaging 17ppg, 12rpg, on 56% shooting, why are laker fans dissing him?

[Derivative]

17ppg, 12rpg, 2apg, 2.6bpg, 56%FG, there's no other center in the league as productive and efficient as dwight howard right now, his stats is only a bit drop off from his Magic days because he's being used less. And laker fans are here disrespecting him?


serious laker fans are a bunch of no good spoiled brats, complaining about their porsche when everyone else drives ****ing hondas

[roffie]

clearly someone doesn't watch the games only the box score

[Derivative]

clearly someone doesn't watch the games only the box score

he had one bad game today, you ignore all the other games where he's unstoppable on offense and owns the boards

[Doranku]

If Dwight Howard is a porsche, Kobe must be a private jet. :facepalm

[brandonislegend]

He loses the ball so often I have never seen a player in NBA history bobble or get stripped as much as him at the moment, could be because of his back though.

[konex]

He has nice averages with huge swings in production. Part of being great is consistency and reliability...

[MichaelCheazley]

If Dwight Howard is a porsche, Kobe must be a private jet. :facepalm
Or helicopter.

[Screamingdoom]

He doesn't offer consistent scoring in the low post and if he could at least hold the ball without getting stripped all the time he'd probably be averaging over 20pts

[L.A. Jazz]

thats part of playing in LA and on the Lakers. Good players getting bashed after every loss, role players getting near star teatment after every win.

[AngelEyes]

He has nice averages with huge swings in production. Part of being great is consistency and reliability...

This. He's paid like a great player therefore he's expected to perform as such. Him making one field goal and giving you seven points is completely unacceptable. Consistency shouldn't be too much to ask.

[RoseCity07]

Yeah and Konex thinks JJ Hickson is a beast. I'd trade Hickson right now for Dwight Howard.

[The-Legend-24]

How about you actually watch the games, dude has been pretty f*cking disappointing...

[AngelEyes]

How about you actually watch the games, dude has been pretty f*cking disappointing...

I don't understand how any Lakers fan can accept 17 points per game from this guy. He's in his 9th season and has the rep as the most dominant center in the game by far, he should be better than this.

[Nick Young]

he had one bad game today, you ignore all the other games where he's unstoppable on offense and owns the boards
One bad game?:facepalm

Watch the games.

He only scores on easy wideopen dunks and put backs. Every time he tries to create he loses the ball and gets stripped or bumbles on his own feet.

All Dwight needs to do is set screens on offense and play hard D. Instead he takes plays off on D and tries to be shaq on offense. No one seems to be afraid of him anymore and random no name bigmen are taking him to school on a daily basis.

[Rubio2Gasol]

He's frustrated with teams putting him at the line whenever he gets the ball (something that leads to him averaging stuff like 17 points. When a third of your points come from free throws the opposing team courts you to take , you have to look at them from a different perspective).

In this system needs to do a better job on the offensive boards and he needs to find a way to catch the ball when he gets it. Thing about this system is that it's more balanced than Stans.

If he posts up people are going to deny him, if he gets put in the pick and roll people are going to be around him.

With Stan they just ran high pick and roll and cleared the whole side of the floor for him so that the help defense would be isolated on one side of the court. Now guards are spacing the floor evenly and their men are helping so he isn't

1. Getting as much room
2. Making as much impact.

It's tricky and I feel bad for him because he can't really figure this out taking seven shots a game - and neither can he develop a rhythm BUT this should not be an excuse for the defensive ineptitude I've seen from him.

He can make a impact and be the best player on the team on that end of the floor, not being able to execute offensively shouldn't mean shit to him. If he does his job defensively he gets even more points in transition.

[Nick Young]

He's frustrated with teams putting him at the line whenever he gets the ball (something that leads to him averaging stuff like 17 points. When a third of your points come from free throws the opposing team courts you to take , you have to look at them from a different perspective).

In this system needs to do a better job on the offensive boards and he needs to find a way to catch the ball when he gets it. Thing about this system is that it's more balanced than Stans.

If he posts up people are going to deny him, if he gets put in the pick and roll people are going to be around him.

With Stan they just ran high pick and roll and cleared the whole side of the floor for him so that the help defense would be isolated on one side of the court. Now guards are spacing the floor evenly and their men are helping so he isn't

1. Getting as much room
2. Making as much impact.

It's tricky and I feel bad for him because he can't really figure this out taking seven shots a game - and neither can he develop a rhythm BUT this should not be an excuse for the defensive ineptitude I've seen from him.

He can make a impact and be the best player on the team on that end of the floor, not being able to execute offensively shouldn't mean shit to him. If he does his job defensively he gets even more points in transition.
He takes way more than 7 shots a game, it just doesn't show up on box scores because he gets hacked on most of his shots and gets freethrows.

[JoshCoward]

I think the back is really effecting him. I've never seen him play this bad in Orlando. Right now, he is clearly struggling to get the control of the ball when given in the post or in P&R situation because his movements are static and slow where he can't seem to even bend properly to grab the ball when not passed straight to him.

[Nick Young]

I think the back is really effecting him. I've never seen him play this bad in Orlando. Right now, he is clearly struggling to get the control of the ball when given in the post or in P&R situation because his movements are static and slow where he can't seem to even bend properly to grab the ball when not passed straight to him.
Back doesnt affect your ability to keep the ball, or keep the ball up high so you don't get stripped constantly by 6'0 guards.

Back doesn't affect your ability to catch the ball when under pressure.

The SVG system really covered up all his deficiencies.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Back doesnt affect your ability to keep the ball, or keep the ball up high so you don't get stripped constantly by 6'0 guards.

Back doesn't affect your ability to catch the ball when under pressure.

The SVG system really covered up all his deficiencies.

Also known as USING YOUR PLAYER PROPERLY

[bluechox2]

kobe ball takes him out of the offense, where he gets the little pickings of a role player

combine that with his butterfingers

[gasolina]

So let me get this straight.... do Laker fans think Howard isn't the league's best center?

[Chapallaz]

It's remarkable how so many players, which often led teams to good playoffs results, all of a sudden are considered crap by Kobe/Bron fans when they play with Kobe (or Lebron).

[stickfigure87]

17ppg, 12rpg, 2apg, 2.6bpg, 56%FG, there's no other center in the league as productive and efficient as dwight howard right now, his stats is only a bit drop off from his Magic days because he's being used less. And laker fans are here disrespecting him?


serious laker fans are a bunch of no good spoiled brats, complaining about their porsche when everyone else drives ****ing hondas

this is the problem with basketball and stats. Stats can definitely be misleading in basketball, as there are so many intangibles. Bad defense, deflections that lead to steals, extra passes, missed shots. In baseball there's an error - there isn't in basketball.

Looking at Dwight's stats make it look like he had a solid game, but if you account for the number of strips and uncounted FG's from free throws, the line wouldn't look so impressive.

Watch.the.damn.game.

[STATUTORY]

NO IMPACT on games

he's basically the garbage man collecting garbage stats. not a go to guy and bobble any bounce pass u throw his way

[Chapallaz]

How difficult is it to use a very talented player like Dwight in a system which doesnt suit him? That's basically the only question which should be asked.

Has there ever been a high profile center playing well in the post in a system like D'Antoni's? Nope.

[Purch]

I'm a Jazz fan, and I hate to agree with Kobe fans, but I've watched every Laker game since Nash came back and Dwight's numbers really don't tell the story. He missimg a lot of point blank shots at the basket, getting the basketball stripped, trying to make post moves in incorrect situations and he's just struggling to find an offensive rhythem. Also he's getting shots in the low post, but teams are just fouling him at an extremly high rate, because no one respects his abilty to shoot freethrows. Him and Pau were 3-19 on shots within the paint last night I believe. I Think Nash himself has stated he feels Dwight at this point is much better going to the Rim where defenses have to react to him coming into the paint, as opposed to catching the ball where he's struggling to make moves and not get stripped.

[Mr. Jabbar]

OP, you watch basketball and THEN create threads. Not the other way around. :no:

[Nick Young]

Also known as USING YOUR PLAYER PROPERLY
No, it hurt the rest of the team. Everyone surrounding Dwight had to be a long distance shooter standing on the perimeter for it to work. It got to one NBA finals (because KG was hurt) and then Dwight got exposed in the finals against one legged Bynum+pau.

[Nick Young]

How difficult is it to use a very talented player like Dwight in a system which doesnt suit him? That's basically the only question which should be asked.

Has there ever been a high profile center playing well in the post in a system like D'Antoni's? Nope.
Boris Diaw had an amazing season when Amare went out as a center.

In theory, Pau should be able to be a better version of MIP year Boris Diaw.

[Mr. Jabbar]

No, it hurt the rest of the team. Everyone surrounding Dwight had to be a long distance shooter standing on the perimeter for it to work. It got to one NBA finals (because KG was hurt) and then Dwight got exposed in the finals against one legged Bynum+pau.

exactly.

People forget how meaningless and fluke an eastern conference finalist may be. The path is to the finals there is a walk in the park.

Astronomically speaking, in the west you need every planet to align in order to make the finals, in the east you just need a sunrise.

[Chapallaz]

Boris Diaw had an amazing season when Amare went out as a center.

In theory, Pau should be able to be a better version of MIP year Boris Diaw.
CENTER. Diaw and Gasol are power forwards, which can do well in D'Antoni's system. Robinson and Hakeem might do great as well, but other than those? You wouldn't want to see Shaq, Mutombo, Ilgauskas, Ewing etc in that system. They'd 'suck'. Getting, or for that matter even morseso, blaming Howard for the current situation is nuts. Howard is still a very very good center.

[Nick Young]

Howard used to be able to run the floor with the most athletic bigmen, and due to his athleticism and strength he should be a monster on pick and rolls.

In theory he should be like Amare in his early years with the suns who plays harder D and is better on the boards. He tries to post up too much, which he can't do, and he's not playing hard enough on D.

In 2009 D12 was playing with a real work rate and hunger on D, he didn't take any plays off. Now he's struttng around lke a diva, taking plays off, not focusing. This is bad when the main part of his dominance was high work rate combined with athleticism. He's not talented enough to take plays off and not work hard and still be a beast, but he's playing like he thinks he is.

[White Mamba]

I don't understand how any Lakers fan can accept 17 points per game from this guy. He's in his 9th season and has the rep as the most dominant center in the game by far, he should be better than this.

its atrocious, he got blocked on 4 of his 7 FGA last night. best center in this league is playing bowling.

[Chapallaz]

Any post player on the Suns which played well could hit the elbow jumper/midrange shot. Dwight can't so he's not a good fit for the system. Ewing could hit those shots but was way too slow to fit in in such a system. Talent does not equal certain strengths.

[Haymaker]

He has nice averages with huge swings in production. Part of being great is consistency and reliability...

This. It was so obvious since his early days with the Magic. He can put up 30/20 on one night and then give you a 16/8 the next one.

[red1]

Yesterday I was looking for a dwight pic so I could call him a corny f*gg*t for the 20th time when I came across this
http://blog.lakers.com/lakers/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/lakers_si150.jpg


Did anyone see this coming in the summer? I was hyping this team up to all of my homies who just watch ball casually and all of the players on the team also bought into the hype. When was the last time we heard someone say get kobe his 6th?

Time is running out for the lakers, the habits they have develop now will determine how they play 4 months from now and right now they look just as lost as they did during preseason. At this point you start to wonder if these losses are starting to f*ck with their confidence. Nash kobe and even artest are all mentally strong but everyone else on the roster needs to develop some kind of flow if they want to win anything of value. I just don't see it happening now that dantoni is the coach. What realistic moves can the lakers make before the trade deadline?

[15yearmagicfan]

I watched every single game of his career... he is a SHADOW of his former self. Much slower, weaker around the basket, defense is half of what it was. I think Bynum last year was a better player the Dwight this year.

[red1]

I watched every single game of his career... he is a SHADOW of his former self. Much slower, weaker around the basket, defense is half of what it was. I think Bynum last year was a better player the Dwight this year.
he visibly lost size and muscle tone too

[Chapallaz]

Yesterday I was looking for a dwight pic so I could call him a corny f*gg*t for the 20th time when I came across this
http://blog.lakers.com/lakers/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/lakers_si150.jpg
Nice cut&paste of Nash' hand there. Real good look. Could've ironed Nash' shorts as well.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Back doesnt affect your ability to keep the ball, or keep the ball up high so you don't get stripped constantly by 6'0 guards.

Back doesn't affect your ability to catch the ball when under pressure.

Yes it does. Have you ever had a bad back? It completely affects the way you move. It's affected all parts of his game.


The SVG system really covered up all his deficiencies.

Stan himself said what I and other posters here who have watched Dwight a lot in the past have been saying, that Dwight is clearly not the same physically as he was in Orlando. But it also obviously helped his game to be the featured player, and clearly he hasn't earned that right over Kobe this season with how each player is playing, but that and health are the main reasons for Dwight's struggles. He could find a rhythm much easier when he was getting the ball in Orlando, he could make better and quicker moves when his back wasn't bothering him, and he could finish easier.

No system is going to turn a guy who averaged 26/15 on 63% in January and February of 2011(27 games) into the player we see this season.

[andremiller07]

I watched every single game of his career... he is a SHADOW of his former self. Much slower, weaker around the basket, defense is half of what it was. I think Bynum last year was a better player the Dwight this year.

Yet hes still the 3rd most athletic big in the NBA which means he has a athletic advantage even with him coming back injury on like 90+% of the people hes playing against.

I don't buy this crap about him athleticly not being back who cares thats not the problem its the system and has very very average skills.

[Kiddlovesnets]

lol this many Lakers fans complaining about Dwight already? How about trading him to the Nets for Brook Lopez then? Come on, be grateful you have this guy, dude is better than Kobe.

[Rubio2Gasol]

lol this many Lakers fans complaining about Dwight already? How about trading him to the Nets for Brook Lopez then? Come on, be grateful you have this guy, dude is better than Kobe.

They should seriously consider Lopez + Wallace if it should be presented to them in the summer.

[15yearmagicfan]

Yet hes still the 3rd most athletic big in the NBA which means he has a athletic advantage even with him coming back injury on like 90+% of the people hes playing against.

I don't buy this crap about him athleticly not being back who cares thats not the problem its the system and has very very average skills.


I dont disagree with you but the problem is.. his advantage over other players in the league was his pure athleticism, not his skill set. Chris Webber lost his athleticism but was still a pure baller. Once dwight lost his from the surgery, his ability to dominate from being the better athlete was severely hampered. It might come back though... who knows.

[KingMichael23]

he had one bad game today, you ignore all the other games where he's unstoppable on offense and owns the boards
It isn't just last night's game. Dwight sucks on offense this season. He gets stripped too often.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

he had one bad game today, you ignore all the other games where he's unstoppable on offense and owns the boards
one bad game? didn't he have like 7 turnovers the game before?

edit: 4, but still...

[ZaaaaaH]

he had one bad game today, you ignore all the other games where he's unstoppable on offense and owns the boards



:roll:

Box score boy :lol

[Rysio]

:roll:

Box score boy :lol
yep lebrick stan spotted.

[Legends66NBA7]

one bad game? didn't he have like 7 turnovers the game before?

edit: 4, but still...

He also had back to back games where he only scored single digit points.

At least has 6 or 7 'bad games' this season, outside of his usual scoring and rebounding. His free throws, turnovers, and sometimes he even looks invisible out there too.

[Chapallaz]

:roll:

Box score boy :lol


http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/310120/news_lebron-james-check-my-stats-1.jpg

[LJJ]

Dwight is doing just fine.


He's still rebounding the hell out of the ball. He's still playing elite defense. (when taking into consideration the tactics of the team.) He's still providing efficient (though awkward looking) low post scoring, while on the whole being fairly flawed on offense. It's the exact same Howard we know.

The only difference here is that he's playing on a team that is not 100% focused on exploiting his strengths and covering for his weaknesses. He's never going to be a guy who makes a great secondary player on offense, because his skillset is extremely limited. This has always been the case, it's the reason Orlando paid Rashard so much money. You don't want to surround Howard with too much complexity if you want to get the most out of him.

[ZaaaaaH]

yep lebrick stan spotted.


DAM YOU GOT ME !

:facepalm

[Darius]

blah blah blah

It's because of his back surgery.

The question is will he recover to near 100% or is it a permanent thing?

[Nick Young]

Dwight is doing just fine.


He's still rebounding the hell out of the ball. He's still playing elite defense. (when taking into consideration the tactics of the team.) He's still providing efficient (though awkward looking) low post scoring, while on the whole being fairly flawed on offense. It's the exact same Howard we know.

The only difference here is that he's playing on a team that is not 100% focused on exploiting his strengths and covering for his weaknesses. He's never going to be a guy who makes a great secondary player on offense, because his skillset is extremely limited. This has always been the case, it's the reason Orlando paid Rashard so much money. You don't want to surround Howard with too much complexity if you want to get the most out of him.
What the shit? No he's not. Guys like undrafted Greg Smith, David Lee, Carl Landry and Anderson Varejao have gone off on him. Faried basically made him his prison bitch.

If he was playing elite defense, his shit offense and TOs would be forgiven. He's playing average D AT BEST

[DKLaker]

Nothing wrong with him, it's the dumbass coach who said he doesn't like the post up game and prefers to jack up a ton of 3's.......just as dumb as having Kobe or Durant and telling them to only pass......result would be the same.

Dumbass coach also doesn't believe in defense either.....so what do you expect?

[SacJB Shady]

The truth is that if you look at the numbers, Dwight Howard is still the same player. The reason why he is scoring less points is because Kobe is taking most of the shots. His field goal percentage is still just as high and he's top 3 or 4 in rebounds. The team is not playing together. If Howard was still playing in Orlando, he would be pretty much the same player. The only difference is Kobe is taking the extra possessions away from him.

[SacJB Shady]

blah blah blah

It's because of his back surgery.

The question is will he recover to near 100% or is it a permanent thing?


He's already recovered. It's all in his head. But if you look at rebounding numbers, still high and that is with Gasol and Peace playing next to him.

[Darius]

He's already recovered. It's all in his head. But if you look at rebounding numbers, still high and that is with Gasol and Peace playing next to him.

You clearly know nothing about back injuries.

[MiseryCityTexas]

17 points is still a lil disppointing considering it's dwight ****ing howard.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Do you think he's playing better right now than he was in Orlando?

[red1]

What the shit? No he's not. Guys like undrafted Greg Smith, David Lee, Carl Landry and Anderson Varejao have gone off on him. Faried basically made him his prison bitch.

If he was playing elite defense, his shit offense and TOs would be forgiven. He's playing average D AT BEST
faried is the only guy who legit raped him. all of those other guys played well because their team's guards f*cked shit up for your entire defense

[red1]

honestly everyone on the lakers is playing shit defense except dwight

[BlueandGold]

One bad game?:facepalm

Watch the games.

He only scores on easy wideopen dunks and put backs. Every time he tries to create he loses the ball and gets stripped or bumbles on his own feet.

All Dwight needs to do is set screens on offense and play hard D. Instead he takes plays off on D and tries to be shaq on offense. No one seems to be afraid of him anymore and random no name bigmen are taking him to school on a daily basis.
I don't know about the bottom part but this is at least true.. and yes watch the games.. dwight is dominant defensively at times but offensively he's the same as he's always been. I've heard a couple of magic fans on here say that howard has stone hands.. i wouldn't say that but there are certain times where he'll inexplicably miss a fast pass inside, like he has problem catching certain types of passes.

[LJJ]

I don't know about the bottom part but this is at least true.. and yes watch the games.. dwight is dominant defensively at times but offensively he's the same as he's always been. I've heard a couple of magic fans on here say that howard has stone hands.. i wouldn't say that but there are certain times where he'll inexplicably miss a fast pass inside, like he has problem catching certain types of passes.

You don't say?

A player who has had very clearly defined offensive limitations going into his 9th season doesn't suddenly turn into Hakeem in one off season, and somehow this is a huge letdown to Lakers fans.

[BlueandGold]

You don't say?

A player who has had very clearly defined offensive limitations going into his 9th season doesn't suddenly turn into Hakeem in one off season, and somehow this is a huge letdown to Lakers fans.
I never assumed that Dwight had "clearly defined offensive limitations".. I saw a phenomenal athletic talent who had tremendous potential to be whatever type of player he wanted to. I saw someone who had enough basketball sense to personally reach out and train with Hakeem. There were a wide range of basketball commentators and analysts who made hakeem/russell type of comparisons while Dwight was in Orlando.

Even if Howard does have these limitations that you speak of then at least his offensive production should stay baseline, at the very least, if not show a slow progression. I think the one thing that has been getting some Laker fans disgruntled is the fact that his offensive production and skillset has seemed like they've been dropping, and not vice versa.

[JellyBean]

17ppg, 12rpg, 2apg, 2.6bpg, 56%FG, there's no other center in the league as productive and efficient as dwight howard right now, his stats is only a bit drop off from his Magic days because he's being used less. And laker fans are here disrespecting him?


serious laker fans are a bunch of no good spoiled brats, complaining about their porsche when everyone else drives ****ing hondas

For me, I was expecting a little bit more out of Howard. The numbers you sighted are decent. But watching a Laker game, especially with that talent, let's just say I was looking for more from Howard and I don't see it yet. 15-16? Not in Laker Land.

[tpols]

You don't say?

A player who has had very clearly defined offensive limitations going into his 9th season doesn't suddenly turn into Hakeem in one off season, and somehow this is a huge letdown to Lakers fans.
Dwight at least had a somewhat respectable post game in Orlando. They used to dump it into him all the time. But they had the spacing to let him operate.. La doesn't.

[LJJ]

I never assumed that Dwight had "clearly defined offensive limitations".. I saw a phenomenal athletic talent who had tremendous potential to be whatever type of player he wanted to. I saw someone who had enough basketball sense to personally reach out and train with Hakeem. There were a wide range of basketball commentators and analysts who made hakeem/russell type of comparisons while Dwight was in Orlando.

Even if Howard does have these limitations that you speak of then at least his offensive production should stay baseline, at the very least, if not show a slow progression. I think the one thing that has been getting some Laker fans disgruntled is the fact that his offensive production and skillset has seemed like they've been dropping, and not vice versa.

His offensive production or skillset hasn't been dropping. He just has a guy named Kobe Bryant on his team, who chucks up 20+ shots a game and is the clear cut first (and second) offensive option on the team.

It's really very simple, you either make Howard the franchise player or you don't. But you don't give him second billing and then complain when he doesn't produce as if the entire team was playing in his service.

[Replay32]

Now that I'm able to see Dwight Howard play every game, I've come to the conclusion that he's just a dumb basketball player. Some of the dumb fouls this dude commits is mind boggling. I do think they should go to him more on offense consistently.

But the dude doesn't have fire and isn't all business on the court night in and night out. Why? I really don't know.

[TheBigVeto]

If Dwight Howard is a porsche, Kobe must be a private jet. :facepalm


http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg

[TheBigVeto]

So let me get this straight.... do Laker fans think Howard isn't the league's best center?

They thought so, before Howard joined the Fakers.
Once he joined, they didn't think so anymore.
Just to make Kobe look better.

[ihatetimthomas]

The expectations run high. Especially the best center in the game coming to LA. To me, he doesn't look like his normal self pre injury. He is not explosive and doesn't have the same reaction quickness. I think he is still not fully healed or back to where he was physically. It he had those numbers and they were winning there iildbt be much criticism or debate. But when the production is down and the losses pile up then you are going to take heat. Obviously this is not all on him. And to be honest, he was projected to be back around this time and he has played all season long. I think his effort is there but he is not 100%. Statistically he looks decent but he doesn't look the same on the floor. He was the major player coming here so is it a big surprise that there is criticism towards him?

[Jameerthefear]

Dwight at least had a somewhat respectable post game in Orlando. They used to dump it into him all the time. But they had the spacing to let him operate.. La doesn't.
It's really this. With Dwight & Gasol there is no spacing for each of them. Dwight doesn't have that many moves yeah, but Lakers fans are being too dramatic.

[Cali Syndicate]

Nothing wrong with him, it's the dumbass coach who said he doesn't like the post up game and prefers to jack up a ton of 3's.......just as dumb as having Kobe or Durant and telling them to only pass......result would be the same.

Dumbass coach also doesn't believe in defense either.....so what do you expect?


The system has a lot to do with it. He's still slacking on d but so is the entire Lakers team so...

[Kellogs4toniee]

he had one bad game today, you ignore all the other games where he's unstoppable on offense and owns the boards


This tells me right here you have barely watched Lakers games this season. Given the expectations and how everyone claims Howard is the "clear cut" best big in the league, he has been no-where in the realm of "dominating" on offense as you claim.

"Howard is dominating this game on both sides of the floor" - No true Lakers fan ever said this season. He gets stripped way too often, is not good at passing out of double teams, does not have excellent hands, and has a very in-efficient post game. I am sorry, but with his put backs and oops, he should be shooting higher than 56%.

The most frustrating part is against teams where there is no dominating big men, you get the feeling he SHOULD be simply dominating but he does not. He fiills up the box score regardless but it is cringe worthy watching him try to dictate the flow of a game, a skill that the best centers always have had. His clowning in the beginning was also very annoying and now after the losses and under-whelming performance, you can see his body language and confidence are all going down-hill.

I haven't even mentioned the foul shooting yet. Thank god for Steve Nash and his return.. because see'ing Howard single handidly destroy the offense flow of his team and convert maybe 2 points every 2 trips to the line was embarrassing :facepalm

[Nick Young]

It's really this. With Dwight & Gasol there is no spacing for each of them. Dwight doesn't have that many moves yeah, but Lakers fans are being too dramatic.
The best center in the league shouldn't consistently be outplayed by other teams centers. The 'best center in the league' should be able to score consistently when he has position in the low post and is being guarded by 6'6' Carl Landry or 6'6' Paul Millsap or 6'8 Al Jefferson, or undrafted Greg Smith but for some reason struggles to.


Guys like Al Jefferson, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez and Tim Duncan are 5 times as skilled as D12 but somehow D12 is the best center in the league? Because the refs let him get away with goaltends?

D12=#1 is the message ESPN has been marketing for years, and now that he's in LA and people are actually watching him on a consistent basis they see that's all BS.

He plays with no heart. There's a reason he is always the worst player on the court when he plays for team USA. Bad basketball brain+bad fundamentals.

[JerryWest]

His offense and defense are on and off, he turns the ball over a **** load and he
still can't hit his freethrows.

[Nick Young]

His offense and defense are on and off, he turns the ball over a **** load and he
still can't hit his freethrows.
And he turned down and ignored freethrow advice from steve nash.

This combined with how he gave up in the 200 finals, gave up in Orlando and begged for SVG to get fired while propping him up in public, and how he gives up this year when things are hard show me he has a horrible immature attitude. He doesn't work hard and is not going to improve.

NOT WORTH RESIGNING

[JerryWest]

And he turned down and ignored freethrow advice from steve nash.

This combined with how he gave up in the 200 finals, gave up in Orlando and begged for SVG to get fired while propping him up in public, and how he gives up this year when things are hard show me he has a horrible immature attitude. He doesn't work hard and is not going to improve.

NOT WORTH RESIGNING
Exatcly. **** Howard, give us Larry Sanders! :bowdown:

[Inactive]

And he turned down and ignored freethrow advice from steve nash.

This combined with how he gave up in the 200 finals, gave up in Orlando and begged for SVG to get fired while propping him up in public, and how he gives up this year when things are hard show me he has a horrible immature attitude. He doesn't work hard and is not going to improve.

NOT WORTH RESIGNINGYou should trade him for an entertaining chucker, like Nick Young.

[Graviton]

Wonder if Indiana would do Hibbert+Granger+Hill for Howard+Artest+Blake, or something landing them Sanders+good PG/SF.

Gotta trade Gasol/Howard for youth/defense before their stock completely plummets.

[Nick Young]

Wonder if Indiana would do Hibbert+Granger+Hill for Howard+Artest+Blake, or something landing them Sanders+good PG/SF.

Gotta trade Gasol/Howard for youth/defense before their stock completely plummets.
I really wish, but that looks like highway robbery AGAINST Indiana to me.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dwight is NOT the player he was right now. Look and tell me he's playing like this.

46/19 in a playoff game....31 points in the first half alone...but yeah, I'm sure Dwight could currently do that......spin moves and jump hooks with both hands were the norm just 2 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tprY_Vmn37I

Just a random game from him, but you see skills and plenty of explosiveness which you don't see the same way this season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSe36-i4ucI

Not an usual game for him, but watch not only the explosiveness, but that even though he's dunking a lot, he's creating consistently in the post vs legit 7 foot centers with bulk in Robin Lopez and Marcin Gortat. Two faceup bank shots in this video, btw...and he was doing this pretty regularly in 2011. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5L_ChUk5E

But yeah...Dwight never had any skill. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5L_ChUk5E#t=5m22s

I'll keep finding 2011 games whenever anyone says it's just the system or that he never had skills and is the same player. Yeah, D'Antoni is a jackass, and that doesn't help, but Dwight would not be playing at 2011 form right now regardless. This is not debatable, stop trying to revise history.

[STATUTORY]

Dwight is NOT the player he was right now. Look and tell me he's playing like this.

46/19 in a playoff game....31 points in the first half alone...but yeah, I'm sure Dwight could currently do that......spin moves and jump hooks with both hands were the norm just 2 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tprY_Vmn37I

Just a random game from him, but you see skills and plenty of explosiveness which you don't see the same way this season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSe36-i4ucI

Not an usual game for him, but watch not only the explosiveness, but that even though he's dunking a lot, he's creating consistently in the post vs legit 7 foot centers with bulk in Robin Lopez and Marcin Gortat. Two faceup bank shots in this video, btw...and he was doing this pretty regularly in 2011. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5L_ChUk5E

But yeah...Dwight never had any skill. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5L_ChUk5E#t=5m22s

I'll keep finding 2011 games whenever anyone says it's just the system or that he never had skills and is the same player. Yeah, D'Antoni is a jackass, and that doesn't help, but Dwight would not be playing at 2011 form right now regardless. This is not debatable, stop trying to revise history.
if Dwight was so skilled why is he not the same after the injury? you don't lose skills during a back surgery you lose your athleticism. the reason he's no longer effective is because he had only a modicum of skill to begin with and he masked it with his supreme athleticism. now the emperor has no clothes

[ShaqAttack3234]

if Dwight was so skilled why is he not the same after the injury? you don't lose skills during a back surgery you lose your athleticism. the reason he's no longer effective is because he had only a modicum of skill to begin with and he masked it with his supreme athleticism. now the emperor has no clothes

He can't move the same way because of his back, and I'm sure he can't practice his skills as much. This has clearly affected not just his leaping ability, but his moves. He was never Hakeem in terms of skills, but he was not an unskilled player, he still isn't, but he did look more skilled than he currently is. It also has to do with his confidence and his overall mindset. But at least you're acknowledging that he isn't the same physically. Anybody who claims Dwight is the same player he was in 2011 is flat out wrong, but I think it's more than just athleticism.

[Jacks3]

Kobe is averaging 30.3 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 4.8 APG, 1.5 SPG on 59% TS.

Why is he getting more criticism than anyone on the team?

:confusedshrug:

[Purch]

You can see it's hard for Nash and Howard to get on the same page, considering that Nash's has never played with a real post presence before.

[STATUTORY]

He can't move the same way because of his back, and I'm sure he can't practice his skills as much. This has clearly affected not just his leaping ability, but his moves. He was never Hakeem in terms of skills, but he was not an unskilled player, he still isn't, but he did look more skilled than he currently is. It also has to do with his confidence and his overall mindset. But at least you're acknowledging that he isn't the same physically. Anybody who claims Dwight is the same player he was in 2011 is flat out wrong, but I think it's more than just athleticism.

I guess it depends on who you compare him to. He's more skilled than a telephone pole, Java or Tyson, probably. But he's still in bottom tier in term of skill for big man getting over 30mpg

[2010splash]

Those numbers aren't that good. Bynum was putting up better stats last year. For someone who's supposedly by far the best C in the league, you expect much better production.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe plays no defense yet still has the energy to jack up 20 shots a game (and the Lakers are 15-16).

But ya, guy should never be criticized. :oldlol:

[guy]

Kobe is averaging 30.3 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 4.8 APG, 1.5 SPG on 59% TS.

Why is he getting more criticism than anyone on the team?

:confusedshrug:

I don't know. Cause he's one of the most hyped up players ever and as a result alot more is expected of him then someone like Dwight who many might not even consider a top 10 center of all-time or Gasol and Nash who are past their prime and don't have as high of a historical reputation anyway. :confusedshrug:

[Jacks3]

Yet the Lakers defense is far, far better with him on the court.

As for "shot-jacking", I'll take 30.3 PPG on 59% TS from my SG anyday.

Lakers have a 114 ORTG with him on the court and 100 with him off.

They're barely managing to score a point per possesion when he's on the court, and are playing like the best offense in the league when he's on.

And clown still think his scoring is the problem.

:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

I don't know. Cause he's one of the most hyped up players ever and as a result alot more is expected of him then someone like Dwight who many might not even consider a top 10 center of all-time or Gasol and Nash who are past their prime and don't have as high of a historical reputation anyway. :confusedshrug:
All I heard before the season is that Dwight was their best player and a top 3 player in the league. What happened to that?

Also love the excuses for Nash/Pau. Kobe is 34 freaking years and in his 17th season. He's played 52,000+ minutes. Do you think he's in his prime? :oldlol: Still out there dominating. 30/5/5/2/59% TS. #4 PER. #4 in WS. Best +/- numbers in the league. Has adjusted his game and is playing far more off-ball than he ever has. Really, what more do you "expect" a 17th star to do?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Leading the Lakers all the way to non-playoff contention. Yea, what a great player. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

What a great player. Still a top 5 player and the best SG in his 17th season.

Legend. :bowdown:

[fpliii]

he hasn't been terrible, but he's been awful by his lofty standards

before the injury, he was able impact a game as much as any player in the league...now for whatever reason, his game-changing ability (in offense, defense, and rebounding) is no longer there

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

1. Thunder
2. Spurs
3. Clippers
4. Grizzlies
5. Warriors
6. Rockets
7. Nuggets

8. Blazers
9. Wolves
10. Jazz
11. Lakers

:roll:

[Jacks3]

5 rings.

:roll:

[pegasus]

he hasn't been terrible, but he's been awful by his lofty standards

before the injury, he was able impact a game as much as any player in the league...now for whatever reason, his game-changing ability (in offense, defense, and rebounding) is no longer there

This. People are forgetting how dominant healthy Howard was. It'd be a shame if he never goes back to that level again. Kobe can carry the offense along with Nash, but they need Howard to anchor the defense, and Gasoft can go be a pi

[Euroleague]

Because most of them believed the NBA's bullshit gimmick marketing that overrates guys that are just physical talent and nothing more.

For years the bullshit NBA gimmick marketing has said this guy is "the best center in the world". So Lakers fans believed that shit, just like most NBA fans.

When the truth is that he has almost no skills at all and is a huge liability at the free throw line. Now that Laker fans see him play every game - they realize the TRUTH about him does not match the bullshit nonsense of the NBA gimmick market machine.

It's simply that Laker fans now actually know how overrated he is. Back in the 90s, Howard would not have even been considered all that good. The main reason he was ever considered good in the first place is that the NBA center position is incredibly weak and terrible.

Even then, when the NBA had a great center like Yao Ming, Howard was being touted as the best, even though Yao was way, way, way better.

It's simply that the Laker fan base is now exposed to the actual level of Howard as a player, instead of just mindlessly following the NBA marketing nonsense of "he's the best center in the world" - which was always a laughable and untrue claim made by the NBA for marketing purposes.

[tpols]

Leading the Lakers all the way to non-playoff contention. Yea, what a great player. :oldlol:
Are you five years old? :oldlol:

[guy]

All I heard before the season is that Dwight was their best player and a top 3 player in the league. What happened to that?

Also love the excuses for Nash/Pau. Kobe is 34 freaking years and in his 17th season. He's played 52,000+ minutes. Do you think he's in his prime? :oldlol: Still out there dominating. 30/5/5/2/59% TS. #4 PER. #4 in WS. Best +/- numbers in the league. Has adjusted his game and is playing far more off-ball than he ever has. Really, what more do you "expect" a 17th star to do?

And all I heard before the season was that because of being on a super stacked team, not any change in ability, Kobe was going to win more championships and be considered as high as GOAT. What happened to that?

You're right. Kobe is in his 17th season and not in his prime. I wouldn't consider his career "worse" as a result of this season as if it would've been better if he had just retired before this season. But his team has not come close to expectations, which the majority of people believed would enhance Kobe's legacy more then anyone else's, and its incredibly naive and stupid to think Kobe has absolutely nothing to do with that.

One thing I find funny is that like the OP has pointed out, Howard statistically hasn't been that much different then he's usually been throughout his career. But the OP is wrong to say that that means he has no reason to be blamed, however he's been the only one I've heard to say that. On the other hand, Kobe statistically has also not been that different, but he still deserves some blame, yet all of his fans are trying to come to the rescue and point to his stats and don't do the same for Dwight despite him being almost the same statistically as well.

[IGOTGAME]

I don't know. Cause he's one of the most hyped up players ever and as a result alot more is expected of him then someone like Dwight who many might not even consider a top 10 center of all-time or Gasol and Nash who are past their prime and don't have as high of a historical reputation anyway. :confusedshrug:

Everyone on this board was saying Dwight was a better player than current Kobe and was the best player on the team. Odd how quickly things change.

[Money 23]

Leading the Lakers all the way to non-playoff contention.
Ouch

You think with those MVP numbers, if they weren't hollow in actuality, they would lead to more in the W column but I'm afraid not.

:(

His style of play has been alienating his teammates, and creates a lack of motivation, thus the terrible record.

#Leadership

[guy]

Everyone on this board was saying Dwight was a better player than current Kobe and was the best player on the team. Odd how quickly things change.

Eh, I'd say about half were. Either way, most thought that Kobe's legacy would benefit the most and considered him the leader of his team. Sh*t, even when asked the question in the offseason, he said it was "his" team as opposed to "our" team like Dwight said.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ouch

You think with those MVP numbers, if they weren't hollow in actuality, they would lead to more in the W column but I'm afraid not.

:(

His style of play has been alienating his teammates, and creates a lack of motivation, thus the terrible record.

#Leadership

That's what playing no defense and stat-padding will do for you. :oldlol: Where are the Kobe fans who handed the Lakers a championship ring before the season even started?

[Money 23]

That's what playing no defense and stat-padding will do to for you. :oldlol: Where are the Kobe fans who handed the Lakers a championship ring before the season even started?
They've even started calling him out for it on ESPN. Saw it the other night at the bar. Kobe standing around on defense, barely moving, looking old as hell. Then on offense, having dynamic quickness and body fluidity. I know fake when I see it.

Dude is clearly conserving energy defensively (where coincidently LA needs his abilities more) in order to concentrate on his agenda of averaging near 30 ppg average.

:oldlol:

If Kobe was playing to win games, his approach would be a lot different. Especially given the people he shares the court with, regardless if some aren't 100% (Dwight)

Kobe wants to have his cake, and eat it too. He wants the ppg numbers, and a chance to compete for a ring. Not realizing, or purposely ignoring that at this stage of his career something has to give.

[guy]

They've even started calling him out for it on ESPN. Saw it the other night at the bar. Kobe standing around on defense, barely moving, looking old as hell. Then on offense, having dynamic quickness and body fluidity. I know fake when I see it.

Dude is clearly conserving energy defensively (where coincidently LA needs his abilities more) in order to concentrate on his agenda of averaging near 30 ppg average.

:oldlol:

If Kobe was playing to win games, his approach would be a lot different. Especially given the people he shares the court with, regardless if some aren't 100% (Dwight)

Kobe wants to have his cake, and eat it too. He wants the ppg numbers, and a chance to compete for a ring. Not realizing, or purposely ignoring that at this stage of his career something has to give.

I didn't think of this and some people said this before the Howard trade. But maybe Kobe has been afraid of Howard getting the majority of the credit if they win it all :oldlol:

[Rubio2Gasol]

Defense is a team game. The defensive anchor needs to hold everyone accountable and everyone needs to keep the intensity for it to work. Unless you want Kobe to check the best player on the opposing team full court every possession, there is very little he can do to radically improve this broken defensive setup.

You talking about speed and fluidity? the dude is clearly slow as hell on both ends. Offensively he has superior footwork- he uses it. Defensively no amount of footwork is going to make you get around screens quicker.

Why people aren't going in on Howard is beyond me. He is doing nothing to direct the defense and certain aspects of his defense have been downright atrocious. I mean they've actually become a worse pick and roll defensive team. He was brought in specifically for that.

[Jacks3]

Curse that Kobe. How dare he play the same way that got him 5 NBA Championships, 7 Finals appearances, and one of the best careers ever.

:mad:

[tpols]

Defense is a team game. The defensive anchor needs to hold everyone accountable and everyone needs to keep the intensity for it to work. Unless you want Kobe to check the best player on the opposing team full court every possession, there is very little he can do to radically improve this broken defensive setup.

You talking about speed and fluidity? the dude is clearly slow as hell on both ends. Offensively he has superior footwork- he uses it. Defensively no amount of footwork is going to make you get around screens quicker.
Kobe has some fluidity on offense.. He's looked great moving out there. But yea kobe can't control the defense like his bigs can. Say kobe starts giving tons of effort on d and drops his ppg by five points.. Is the defense getting that much better? Nash still isn't checking the pgs of this era at 39.. All the bench can't defend.. They have D'Antoni's calling the schemes..

It wouldn't change much unless the whole team buys into some type of defensive philosophy. And that's not really on kobe.. That's on the coaches and really Dwight since he's supposedly the best defensive player in the world.

What kobe can change is his ability to get Dwight going more in the post but he's kinda sucked all year down low in any type of iso set so it's understandable that they're moving away from that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

They've even started calling him out for it on ESPN. Saw it the other night at the bar. Kobe standing around on defense, barely moving, looking old as hell. Then on offense, having dynamic quickness and body fluidity. I know fake when I see it.

Dude is clearly conserving energy defensively (where coincidently LA needs his abilities more) in order to concentrate on his agenda of averaging near 30 ppg average.

:oldlol:

If Kobe was playing to win games, his approach would be a lot different. Especially given the people he shares the court with, regardless if some aren't 100% (Dwight)

Kobe wants to have his cake, and eat it too. He wants the ppg numbers, and a chance to compete for a ring. Not realizing, or purposely ignoring that at this stage of his career something has to give.

Yep. According to his fans, though, not playing defense means you're exempt of "blame".

It's crazy...Kobe gets gift wrapped some of the best supporting casts ever, and his fans still complain. "He needs more help!! It's Pau's fault! Dwight sucks now! Fire the coach again it's his fault!" LOL!!!! Two 7 footers, one of them a 3 time dpoy, yearly MVP candidate. The other is the most skilled 7 footer in the game. And one of the best playmaking pg's in the game. Yet, Kobe kills any team chemistry. :oldlol: I love it

[tpols]

Curse that Kobe. How dare he play the same way that got him 5 NBA Championships, 7 Finals appearances, and one of the best careers ever.

:mad:
It's funny how these guys here think they're inside his head perfectly. :oldlol: Like they know his every motive behind anything he does. Kobe's averaging 30 on better overall efficiency than Howard? Fvcking chucker wants all the Damn glory. :oldlol: Can't be the fact that teams have been exploiting Dwight offensive game all year and throwing him of rythym with hack a Dwight coupled with the fact that he's clearly not 100 percent can't be that the team was starving for offense with Gasol and Nash kissing major time and the bench sucking. Gotta be kobe just glory hounding.. Shits retarded.

[Money 23]

I didn't think of this and some people said this before the Howard trade. But maybe Kobe has been afraid of Howard getting the majority of the credit if they win it all :oldlol:
Probably. Kobe, to his credit at times (amazing drive) and his awkward contrived default self image has always been a little TOO self aware of where he may end up on the totem pole of all time greats.

I mean, even after 3 rings by the time he was 23 or 24 he clearly didn't have has much joy for them knowing everyone considered Shaq the best player on that team, and that it was "Shaq's squad"

If Kobe managed to win another ring, with Howard getting the majority of the credit, it would go down as 4 rings as basically the 2nd best player on the team.

I'm sure he wooed Dwight and Nash to LA with promises of reduced ego to win rings, then the second camp starts Howard says "it's our team" and Kobe says "it's my team"

For what? If you just want to win, go win ... utilize all these weapons on your squad, that isn't just your personal sick jumper and footwork.

Kobe to his greatness and disdain, has always been a little too focused on the end game of how he'll be ranked, instead of just going out ad knocking down the obstacles in front of him. At least that's how it has always seemed to me.

Let your legacy and legend be the result of the small battles and obstacles. And when they accumulate, then things don't seem so contrived and fake.


unless you want Kobe to check the best player on the opposing team full court every possession, there is very little he can do to radically improve this broken defensive setup.
Oh please. Kobe could make MAJOR impact defensively if he was putting forth the effort. And no, Kobe has shown speed and fluidity. Not just footwork. I watched him BLOW by Philly's PG and then reverse dunk it, just the other night.

That takes tremendous quickness, and legs to do the move and the dunk. He's not using that energy on defense, though. Not even trying.

No, I just want him to show effort on defense. As leader, it would be showing by example, and would probably inject life into the team.

Have you ever played hoops with someone who chills on defense, exerts all kinds of energy on offense (primarily shooting for himself) then criticizes his teammates verbally? What does that do to your teammates spirits? They don't want to play with him or for him.

Kobe is trying too hard on offense. He's in a system right now that maximizes the wealth of options on a team. No one is saying he needs to be DPOY, but he can be a lockdown defender when he tries. And if he has the energy and offensive body fluidity to score damn near 30 ppg, he can play good defense when he wants to as well.

Show some effort, be a leader, inspire the rest on the team, let your numbers dip a bit on offense, and get others involved. Kobe's never been as impactful of a player when he focuses on getting his 30 ppg numbers. His best or most successful seasons 2001, 2008, 2009, 2010 ... he wasn't visibly gunning to be a 30 ppg scorer. Get others involved, and play defense. And the Lakers will start winning. I guarantee it.

I don't think Kobe's heart and head is in the right place, though. Kobe stans will deny it, but there is a visible lack of chemistry on that team.

Any Kobe stan honestly acting like this Laker team NEEDS him to score that much, and NEEDS him to conserve energy on defense in order for the Lakers to even have a chance at competing in games is totally lying to themselves in order to protect their guy. He deserves some criticism. He gets the glory, he needs to get the heat, too. That's what leaders do. And Kobe right now, is not playing the right way for this Laker team to be successful. That much is blatantly obvious.

Worst part is Kobe is a smart player. He knows the right answer, but chooses to ignore it in favor of his personal agenda. Phil always knew this, but could at times keep him in check for the betterment of the team. Kobe needs to self analyze and make the right choices as leader. If this is truly afterall "Kobe's team" ... right?

Kobe stans want the glory, none of the blame. Pathetic, and weak minded.

[guy]

Curse that Kobe. How dare he play the same way that got him 5 NBA Championships, 7 Finals appearances, and one of the best careers ever.

:mad:

So he always sucked on defense and shot the ball way too much? :oldlol: Guess he's more overrated and his past teammates were better then we initially thought.

[guy]

Probably. Kobe, to his credit at times (amazing drive) and his awkward contrived default self image has always been a little TOO self aware of where he may end up on the totem pole of all time greats.

I mean, even after 3 rings by the time he was 23 or 24 he clearly didn't have has much joy for them knowing everyone considered Shaq the best player on that team, and that it was "Shaq's squad"

If Kobe managed to win another ring, with Howard getting the majority of the credit, it would go down as 4 rings as basically the 2nd best player on the team.

I'm sure he wooed Dwight and Nash to LA with promises of reduced ego to win rings, then the second camp starts Howard says "it's our team" and Kobe says "it's my team"

For what? If you just want to win, go win ... utilize all these weapons on your squad, that isn't just your personal sick jumper and footwork.

Kobe to his greatness and disdain, has always been a little too focused on the end game of how he'll be ranked, instead of just going out ad knocking down the obstacles in front of him. At least that's how it has always seemed to me.

Let your legacy and legend be the result of the small battles and obstacles. And when they accumulate, then things don't seem so contrived and fake.


Oh please. Kobe could make MAJOR impact defensively if he was putting forth the effort. And no, Kobe has shown speed and fluidity. Not just footwork. I watched him BLOW by Philly's PG and then reverse dunk it, just the other night.

That takes tremendous quickness, and legs to do the move and the dunk. He's not using that energy on defense, though. Not even trying.

No, I just want him to show effort on defense. As leader, it would be showing by example, and would probably inject life into the team.

Have you ever played hoops with someone who chills on defense, exerts all kinds of energy on offense (primarily shooting for himself) then criticizes his teammates verbally? What does that do to your teammates spirits? They don't want to play with him or for him.

Kobe is trying too hard on offense. He's in a system right now that maximizes the wealth of options on a team. No one is saying he needs to be DPOY, but he can be a lockdown defender when he tries. And if he has the energy and offensive body fluidity to score damn near 30 ppg, he can play good defense when he wants to as well.

Show some effort, be a leader, inspire the rest on the team, let your numbers dip a bit on offense, and get others involved. Kobe's never been as impactful of a player when he focuses on getting his 30 ppg numbers. His best or most successful seasons 2001, 2008, 2009, 2010 ... he wasn't visibly gunning to be a 30 ppg scorer. Get others involved, and play defense. And the Lakers will start winning. I guarantee it.

I don't think Kobe's heart and head is in the right place, though. Kobe stans will deny it, but there is a visible lack of chemistry on that team.

Any Kobe stan honestly acting like this Laker team NEEDS him to score that much, and NEEDS him to conserve energy on defense in order for the Lakers to even have a chance at competing in games is totally lying to themselves in order to protect their guy. He deserves some criticism. He gets the glory, he needs to get the heat, too. That's what leaders do. And Kobe right now, is not playing the right way for this Laker team to be successful. That much is blatantly obvious.

Worst part is Kobe is a smart player. He knows the right answer, but chooses to ignore it in favor of his personal agenda. Phil always knew this, but could at times keep him in check for the betterment of the team. Kobe needs to self analyze and make the right choices as leader. If this is truly afterall "Kobe's team" ... right?

Kobe stans want the glory, none of the blame. Pathetic, and weak minded.

Exactly. 10 of the Lakers 16 losses came within under 10 points. And most of those games, Kobe shot alot. So if he put more of an effort on defense and shared the ball even a little more, its really not that far-fetched to say they would've won lets say half of those 10 games. With that being the case, they'd be 20-11, which is still below expectations but still looking like a championship team.

[AirTupac]

In some games, he just doesn't care. Last game you could tell how frustrated he was. Steve Nash tried to give him a high five, he was moping around so Nash grabbed his hand and forced a high five so try and get him in the game someway.

He's been really disappointing thus far but I'm giving him time because he's still not 100%.

[ZeN]

Two 7 footers, one of them a 3 time dpoy, yearly MVP candidate. The other is the most skilled 7 footer in the game. And one of the best playmaking pg's in the game. Yet, Kobe kills any team chemistry. :oldlol: I love it

You are, how you play..

Those 3 players are obviously not playing to the status of those titles you have brought up. That 3 time dpoy is coming off of back surgery, which shows in his lack of athleticism and jump response. Nash is also coming back from an injury. And that so called most skilled 7 footer doesnt act like it.. he is passive and isnt responding to the pressure like he once did.

Kobe has nothing to do with Howards injuries, synchronicity, and overall attitude towards the game.. he basically left Orlando with chemistry and attitude baggage. Those negatives werent created by Kobe.

Kobe hasnt gotten in Nash's way, nor played in a way to restrict his playmaking. Hes actually been benefiting greatly from having Nash be Nash.


And as for Pau.. his story is getting to be f*cking old now. His passive attitude, his lack of focus, and his tendency to get lost in his lack of motivation has been a glaring issue since the last few Phil Jackson years. He may be skilled but he hardly takes advantage of it.. right along with his lack of defense when hes not getting fed offensively. All of it being issues that he has carried in his NBA play since his Memphis days.. Its no surprise that hes regressed to his former play.

Back when he first arrived Kobe and Phil pushed and prodded him to become tenacious and motivated. He responded to that stress in a positive way by working harder and pushing himself with his play. But it seems that hes burned out and isnt as willing to work hard anymore.. That isnt Kobes fault.

[Jacks3]

So he always sucked on defense and shot the ball way too much?
Sucked on defense? Lakers have a 106.3 DRTG with him on the court as opposed to 112.5 with him off. They've been significantly better with him on the court defensively. His opp PER is also very good.

Shot too much? I'll take 30.3 PPG on 59% TS allday. Lakers have a ridiculously good 114 ORTG with him and a horrific 100 ORTG with him off. Overall, they have the #5 offense in the league.

Nice try.

:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

It's funny how these guys here think they're inside his head perfectly. :oldlol: Like they know his every motive behind anything he does. Kobe's averaging 30 on better overall efficiency than Howard? Fvcking chucker wants all the Damn glory. :oldlol: Can't be the fact that teams have been exploiting Dwight offensive game all year and throwing him of rythym with hack a Dwight coupled with the fact that he's clearly not 100 percent can't be that the team was starving for offense with Gasol and Nash kissing major time and the bench sucking. Gotta be kobe just glory hounding.. Shits retarded.
Exactly. These clowns have no clue what they're talking about. We're just a couple of years from Kobe leading the Lakers to three straight Finals and back-to-back Championships doing the EXACT same thing he's doing this season, which is playing brilliant ball...except his efficiency is better than ever.

These clowns REFUSE to look at the true issues with this team (shitty bench, weak defense, Nash missing 25 games, Pau career worst season, Dwight's injuries,3 different head coaches etc), and are only interested in promoting their sad agenda.

Shit is pathetic. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe's (individual) DRtg is 107 and his fans are actually BRAGGING about it? :roll:

[Jacks3]

It's team DRTG I referenced. Dudes can't even use the correct stats. Christ. :facepalm

[chazzy]

Kobes playing a lot better than expected and Dwight is playing far worse. People expected Dwight take over as the most impactful player, and now that everything has gone awry, it's now the usual "kobe shoots too much" talking points despite their great offense and his high efficiency. Just lol at the "he's afraid of Dwight getting credit so he takes all the shots" theory. How pathetic coming from normally level headed posters

[Rubio2Gasol]

Kobe's (individual) DRtg is 107 and his fans are actually BRAGGING about it? :roll:

I honestly don't know what Defensive Rating entails but Lebron's is 103 and I regularly hear people call him the best defensive player in the game. (Which I've always thought is utterly laughable , but it is what it is).

I'm guessing the stat itself is highly subjective and simplistic, as is the case with all these useless stats that go around these days.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Crazy Kobe fanatics citing a team stat, yet listing the on/off the court discrepancy for an individual (well, Kobe). Good one guys. :oldlol:

Meanwhile, Kobe has a 107 DRtg and is leading the Lakers to a 15-16 record. That's about good for 10th place in the Western conference. You know, just outside the playoffs? LOL!

[Rubio2Gasol]

Apparently Lamar Odom has a defensive rating of 96.5 :roll:

[Money 23]

Defensive Rating in its entirety doesn't make sense. It's not a statistical based portion of the game.

[chazzy]

Crazy Kobe fanatics citing a team stat, yet listing the on/off the court discrepancy for an individual (well, Kobe). Good one guys. :oldlol:

Meanwhile, Kobe has a 107 DRtg and is leading the Lakers to a 15-16 record. That's about good for 10th place in the West. You know, just outside the playoffs? LOL!
I think he's referring to the differential between the teams d when hes on the court and the overall team d

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Adjusting a team stat for an individual. Clueless right? :oldlol:

Me personally? I dont use "defensive rating"

[guy]

Sucked on defense? Lakers have a 106.3 DRTG with him on the court as opposed to 112.5 with him off. They've been significantly better with him on the court defensively. His opp PER is also very good.

Shot too much? I'll take 30.3 PPG on 59% TS allday. Lakers have a ridiculously good 114 ORTG with him and a horrific 100 ORTG with him off. Overall, they have the #5 offense in the league.

Nice try.

:oldlol:

I hope you know that all the ORTG and DRTG with and without Kobe really shows is that they are better with him on the court instead of someone like Jodie Meeks or Darius Morris in his place :oldlol: I know he's declined, but I never said he's declined that much to the point that his standards are reduced to whether the team is better off with him or without him. :oldlol:

His efficiency has been great. However, efficiency stats don't always indicate that he's promoting team play, not dominating the ball, taking good shots, and doing a good job getting his teammates involved. It usually does, but in this case he's not. Not to mention, I hope you realize that for the previous 4 seasons, Kobe has started off with better efficiency then he ended with.

[chazzy]

Adjusting a team stat for an individual. Clueless right? :oldlol:

Me personally? I dont use "defensive rating"
Individual drtg is simply the teams drtg when a player is on the court

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Individual drtg is simply the teams drtg when a player is on the court

You're not saying anything I dont already know. With Kobe on the court, they're still pretty awful defensively, specifically in 4th quarters.

[chazzy]

You're not saying anything I dont already know. With Kobe on the court, they're still pretty awful defensively, specifically in 4th quarters.
Yeah one of their biggest problems early was their crunch time defense. I read that it drops to the 5th worst in the league a month ago.

Another reason why all this whining about the offense doesnt make much sense to me. Beyond their physical limitations on the perimeter, they have no proper scheme or consistent help rotations both inside and out.

[Money 23]

You're not saying anything I dont already know. With Kobe on the court, they're still pretty awful defensively, specifically in 4th quarters.
Exactly. D12 isn't playing the best defense he's capable of ... but the Kate Faber contingency refusing to acknowledge Kobe's clear lack of effort on defense, is more than alarming.

If Kobe switched his approach up, led by example, dipped his shot attempts in lieu of more effort on defense and willingness to get others involved. And the Lakers would be doing MUCH better.

But, I gotta get that 30 ppg, yo ... prove I'm not done. Doing that last year is fine, but with a roster that could have you poised to win another ring, why would you waist your energy and focus on something like that ?

[tpols]

Kobes playing a lot better than expected and Dwight is playing far worse. People expected Dwight take over as the most impactful player, and now that everything has gone awry, it's now the usual "kobe shoots too much" talking points despite their great offense and his high efficiency. Just lol at the "he's afraid of Dwight getting credit so he takes all the shots" theory. How pathetic coming from normally level headed posters
Nope.. Lol its just kobe sucking the life out of the team. Don't you know we have a professional sports physcologist in money23?:oldlol: There have been zero problems with this team besides kobe chucking.. Can't argue against that phd baby.

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=guy]I I know he's declined, but I never said he's declined that much to the point that his standards are reduced to whether the team is better off with him or without him. :oldlol:
They're not just "better". His +/- numbers are better than ANYONE in the league. The Lakers are completely falling off a cliff with him off. So much for his scoring hurting the team. :oldlol:

His efficiency has been great. However, efficiency stats don't always indicate that he's promoting team play, not dominating the ball, taking good shots, and doing a good job getting his teammates involved. It usually does, but in this case he's not.
Wong again. His shot-selection this year has been fine. He's cut his isolation plays by a significant amount. When Nash has been on the court, he's played almost exclusively off-ball. He's getting to the rim much more. And he's averaging more APG than any SG in the league outside Harden. You say he's not, yet every single piece of objective evidence says that the Lakers are GREAT offensively with him on the court and crap when he's off. And the Lakers have a very strong offense overall (6th in ORTG, +3.6 relative to league average).

Not to mention, I hope you realize that for the previous 4 seasons, Kobe has started off with better efficiency then he ended with.
And I hope you realize that this Laker team has the best shooting/spacing he's had since the 08 season, and that on THIS team he no longer has to be the primary scorer and play-maker, which means he can play off-ball and get cleaner shots. Playing with another creator means there's a very good chance he keeps this level of efficeny up all season.

[Jacks3]

Kobes playing a lot better than expected and Dwight is playing far worse. People expected Dwight take over as the most impactful player, and now that everything has gone awry, it's now the usual "kobe shoots too much" talking points despite their great offense and his high efficiency. Just lol at the "he's afraid of Dwight getting credit so he takes all the shots" theory. How pathetic coming from normally level headed posters
Exactly. What a ****ing joke. :oldlol:

[The Iron Fist]

Wait. I thought kobes haters said his d was overrated? That he didn't deserve all of those all d selections. Now they're saying its his d that will make the difference?

Strange lot Kobe haters are.


"Howard is now the Lakers best player. Kobe is at best, maybe 3rd."


Very strange lot.

[tpols]

[QUOTE]
They're not just "better". His +/- numbers are better than ANYONE in the league. The Lakers are completely falling off a cliff with him off. So much for his scoring hurting the team. :oldlol:

Wong again. His shot-selection this year has been fine. He's cut his isolation plays by a significant amount. When Nash has been on the court, he's played almost exclusively off-ball. He's getting to the rim much more. And he's averaging more APG than any SG in the league outside Harden. You say he's not, yet every single piece of objective evidence says that the Lakers are GREAT offensively with him on the court and crap when he's off. And the Lakers have a very strong offense overall (6th in ORTG, +3.6 relative to league average).

And I hope you realize that this Laker team has the best shooting/spacing he's had since the 08 season, and that on THIS team he no longer has to be the primary scorer and play-maker, which means he can play off-ball and get cleaner shots. Playing with another creator means there's a very good chance he keeps this level of efficeny up all season.

Guy doesn't watch laker games my dude.. He just regurgitates whatever smarter more informed posters have said before him. He literally has no clue what has been going on with the Lakers this year. You can tell by his posts.

[Jacks3]

No doubt. None of these guys are interested in discussing the real issues.

[apesta]

His stats are pointless if he can't impact the game. He just hasn't been able to play like he did in his Magic days.

[Derivative]

laker fans are sad