Better team leader: Michael Jordan (during prime) or Kobe Bryant (in prime)?

[hawkfan]

Better team leader: Michael Jordan (during his prime) or Kobe Bryant (currently in prime)?

[NLZ]

Similar leaders as well... same kind of style. Kobe probably has a better understanding of the game, MJ more influential.

[Jolokia]

Similar leaders as well... same kind of style. Kobe probably has a better understanding of the game, MJ more influential.
This is right.

[guy]

Similar leaders as well... same kind of style. Kobe probably has a better understanding of the game, MJ more influential.

Kobe has a better understanding of what??? :oldlol:

[NLZ]

Kobe has a better understanding of what??? :oldlol:
"the game"

[I<3NBA]

Similar leaders as well... same kind of style. Kobe probably has a better understanding of the game, MJ more influential.
so the guy with worse shot selection has better understanding of "the game?"

:yaohappy:

[Rubio2Gasol]

Phil Jackson.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I can't believe this is a real question. And the guy above me got it right Phil Jackson is the right answer.

[Inactive]

They both suck.

[Rysio]

kobe bryant. without scottie pippen jordan led his teams to under .500 records and missed the playoffs 3 times. scottie has not missed the playoffs a single time with or without jordan.

[KG215]

Kobe Bryant. No question. Michael Jordan is basically a poor man's version of Kobe that thrived with Pippen running the offense and playing for the GOAT coach. Kobe is also better than Jordan in every single facet of the game. Not only was Kobe the best SG of his generation, he was the best PG as well, and could've been the best center if he had decided to focus on the position more. Jordan was just the best SG of his generation.

[Noob Saibot]

Kobe cuz he can pass it to himself and still score. one man wrecking crew.

[KG215]

kobe bryant. without scottie pippen jordan led his teams to under .500 records and missed the playoffs 3 times. scottie has not missed the playoffs a single time with or without jordan.
Exactly. Look at how many seasons Jordan's teams missed the playoffs before Pippen - and keep in mind, Pippen didn't even become a full-time starter until his third season (1989-1990) and didn't really emerge until 1990-1991, so the list of playoffless years for Jordan without Pippen should be embarrassingly long.

Years Jordan Missed Playoffs Pre-Pippen:

There is no list moron. Jordan made the playoffs every year pre-Pippen. Jordan was the best player on the team from day one basically with a supporting cast of Orlando Woolridge, Quintin Dailey, Steve Johnson, and Dave Corzine. Nothing like prime Shaq, Van Exel, and Eddie Jones.

[crisoner]

Similar leaders as well... same kind of style. Kobe probably has a better understanding of the game, MJ more influential.

Agreed

[Jailblazers7]

Jordan since Kobe swagger jacked his leadership style.

[crisoner]

Jordan since Kobe swagger jacked his leadership style.

I think they are both natural a-holes.

[STATUTORY]

Exactly. Look at how many seasons Jordan's teams missed the playoffs before Pippen - and keep in mind, Pippen didn't even become a full-time starter until his third season (1989-1990) and didn't really emerge until 1990-1991, so the list of playoffless years for Jordan without Pippen should be embarrassingly long.

Years Jordan Missed Playoffs Pre-Pippen:

There is no list moron. Jordan made the playoffs every year pre-Pippen. Jordan was the best player on the team from day one basically with a supporting cast of Orlando Woolridge, Quintin Dailey, Steve Johnson, and Dave Corzine. Nothing like prime Shaq, Van Exel, and Eddie Jones.

u know he played after Pippen too right? :facepalm :roll:

[Jailblazers7]

I think they are both natural a-holes.

:oldlol:

Probably true.

[KG215]

u know he played after Pippen too right? :facepalm :roll:
You mean nearly 40 year old Jordan with an even worse supporting cast in Washington than he had in his pre-Pippen days in Chicago?

Yeah...I can't believe that guy missed the playoffs so many times!!!

[guy]

"the game"

Right. The dude that dominates the ball more yet is still less effective, gets more turnovers but less assists, has worse shot selection, and can't get a team with Howard, Gasol, and Nash to above .500 has a better understanding of the game. :oldlol:

[Money 23]

Jordan since Kobe swagger jacked his leadership style.
Basically.

Whether you want to call Kobe the last chain link to the 80s / 90s era, whatever.

MJ used fear as a motivator for leadership. Kobe obviously studied the guy, and used Jordan's method as his own. Seriously, read up on Kobe circa 1997 - 2000. When he met MJ, he was always picking his brain. When PJ and Harper joined the Lakers, he was always asking them about Jordan and how he did things.

It worked better for MJ and the Bulls because, he didn't alienate everyone with his play the way Kobe often does. So in ways it inspired those around him, and he had Pippen to play "good cop" to MJ's "bad cop" ...

If LeBron showcased that mean, fearless nature he displayed in game 6 v.s. the Celtics, he'd be the perfect leader. Both "good cop" and "bad cop" rolled into one. He's a gatherer and can elevate his teammates play, without degrading them in public or private.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Kobe is an individual player. He doesn't match Jordan's intensity and focus and doesn't foster his disciplined approach to the game.

He however has a very unique understanding of the game. Much more than any other non-point guard player he's acted as a proxy for the coach, helping other players understand the triangle, designing and adjusting plays to fit the personnel, even helping personnel refine their own individual talents. That is what people are referring to when they say he has a better understanding of the game.

[Jacks3]

Probably Kobe. He's taken a bunch of guys under his wing and made them better players (Ariza,Odom,Pau, CDR etc) and has the GOAT work-ethic. Even guys like T-Mac felt the need to personally thank him in their retirement speeches for making him a better player. He's consistently adjusted his game to fit the players around him. Like this year, when Nash has been on the court, he's played almost exclusively off the ball and excelled. And when Nash was out, he played more P&R than ever and did a great job.

Or this letter from Chris Douglas Roberts:

Last summer I woke up stressed out damn near every morning. Some days were better than others, but most were bad. I knew I had the game, but going into the last week before training camp, I was still without a team. Even through all the uncertainty, my faith still outweighed my fear. I continued to release positive energy into the atmosphere….then out of no where, the Lakers called. They wanted me to come in and earn a spot. Once I got that call, it was made up in my mind that I’d be a Laker. I knew I was going to go in there and showcase my talent. Which I did. The very first day I was 1 on 1 partners with Kobe. And we were going at it. **** talking…elbows were thrown. To my surprise, after that first practice Kobe went to media and spoke highly of me. Everyday I played well and practiced well. Kobe continued to mentor me along the way. The Laker fans embraced me. I just knew I was in. Then I got a call from Leon (my agent) saying they were going to let me go. They told me I played great. The numbers on the business side just wouldn’t work. It was one of the worst phone calls I’ve ever gotten, but I was at peace because I knew I played my ass off. I brought it every day. My motto is “control what you can control” and I did that. That didn’t matter though. Once it got released that the Lakers let me go, the people thought it was due to my game. People had jokes. People wrote me off. It was embarrassing. However, I took positives away from my month with the Lakers too. I developed a relationship with Kobe Bryant. He showed me how to be a pro. He showed me real work ethic. Playing against him everyday made me so much of a better player. He understood me. He understood that its a difference in having a bad attitude and being competitive and wanting to win every drill/game. One night after a game and we were in the showers and he told me “you have no other choice. You were put here to be basketball player. You have to fight until you’re one of them boys. You’re too talented. I played behind mfers that I was better than up until my third year but I KNEW I would be who I am today then. I work too hard not to break through.” That stuck with me. So I appreciate the opportunity the Lakers gave me. I looked at that month with the Lakers as an internship under Bean. I gained knowledge that I couldn’t have gotten any other way. That’s what I took from that situation. It’s all about how you respond when times are rough.

Yup. Great leader. MJ, on the other hand, was just a dick.

[STATUTORY]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Probably Kobe. He's taken a bunch of guys under his wing and made them better players (Ariza,Odom,Pau, CDR etc) and has the GOAT work-ethic. Even guys like T-Mac felt the need to personally thank him in their retirement speeches for making him a better player. He's consistently adjusted his game to fit the players around him. Like this year, when Nash has been on the court, he's played almost exclusively off the ball and excelled. And when Nash was out, he played more P&R than ever and did a great job.

Or this letter from Chris Douglas Roberts:

Last summer I woke up stressed out damn near every morning. Some days were better than others, but most were bad. I knew I had the game, but going into the last week before training camp, I was still without a team. Even through all the uncertainty, my faith still outweighed my fear. I continued to release positive energy into the atmosphere

[NLZ]

Right. The dude that dominates the ball more yet is still less effective, gets more turnovers but less assists, has worse shot selection, and can't get a team with Howard, Gasol, and Nash to above .500 has a better understanding of the game. :oldlol:
Being a superior player doesn't mean you know more about the game..

[alleykat]

jordan no question

kobe led his team to 2 championships in his prime and as the leader of his team. jordan to 3, and even 3 after his prime. matter of fact it's hard to say which was his prime.

you are talking about times when they were the leaders of their teams right? well it's not that hard, and yes it is that simple.

[Inactive]

I don't know if Kobe has a better understanding of the game than MJ, but I do think he's better at communicating his knowledge. MJ was more intuitive, Kobe is more calculating, and articulate. Kobe would make a better coach, MJ was a better player.

[KG215]

Probably Kobe...and has the GOAT work-ethic.
Forgot all about this. Kobe's the hardest and most relentless worker. Not just in NBA history, but sports history. Don't even try to compare Jordan's work ethic to Kobe's. Jordan was so lazy, he took two years off to rest-up so he could come back for another 3-peat. There's absolutely ZERO evidence, i.e. quotes, videos, articles, etc. that would lead anyone to believe Jordan's work ethic was as good or better than Kobe's.



T-Mac felt the need to personally thank him in their retirement speeches for making him a better player.
Yep. And, again, I think Kobe is the only player in NBA and sports history that a counterpart has said that about. Players that played against Jordan didn't give a shit that they were playing against MJ because there was no reason for them to try and get better as players. It's not like Jordan was dominating the league, winning all the championships and MVP's or anything.


He's consistently adjusted his game to fit the players around him. Like this year, when Nash has been on the court, he's played almost exclusively off the ball and excelled. And when Nash was out, he played more P&R than ever and did a great job.
Right on point once again. I mean all you've done is use 30 games of one season for evidence, but still, you can't argue against this. You clearly know what you're talking about. Kobe's adjusted his game so flawlessly and effortlessly this year, that he's led his team to a 15-16 record.

Jordan played the exact same way his entire career with the Bulls. First 3-peat Jordan and second 3-peat Jordan were identical players who did nothing to change their game for the betterment of the team.


Or this letter from Chris Douglas Roberts:
I developed a relationship with Kobe Bryant. He showed me how to be a pro. He showed me real work ethic. Playing against him everyday made me so much of a better player.
GOAT mentor, too. There's literally nothing that Kobe isn't the best of all-time at.


He understood me. He understood that its a difference in having a bad attitude and being competitive and wanting to win every drill/game. One night after a game and we were in the showers and he told me “you have no other choice. You were put here to be basketball player. Just never stops giving advice. Even takes his leadership skills into the showers to mentor other players.


Yup. Great leader. MJ, on the other hand, was just a dick.
Undoubtedly. There are literally zero stories out there like this about Jordan. None. He couldn't lead a group of Ethiopians to an all you can eat dinner buffet. Which, when you really think about it, is a testament to just how good he was as a player and how much talent he had. To win six rings, lead a team to five 60+ win seasons, and make the playoffs every single year he was in Chicago? Guy must have had a ridiculous amount of talent.

[guy]

Being a superior player doesn't mean you know more about the game..

Thats not just being a superior player but also being a smarter player. Everything I just mentioned has nothing to do with ability and athleticism and everything to do with decision making.

Why don't you just tell me what makes Kobe more understanding of the game?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Right. The dude that dominates the ball more yet is still less effective, gets more turnovers but less assists, has worse shot selection, and can't get a team with Howard, Gasol, and Nash to above .500 has a better understanding of the game. :oldlol:

Basically

Inb4 "5 RINGZ"...LOL :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.

What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.

The meaning of the gesture to Ariza -- and its net effect in transforming his jump shot and thus this Lakers championship team -- makes it the quintessence of the latter-day Bryant as a teammate.

It pushed Bryant forward even further in prioritizing his teammates' development. Sharing his personal shooting program with Ariza was akin to unlocking the vault.

"Getting that from him? Kind of cool, kind of cool," Ariza said. "Because before I got here, you always hear how he's this certain type of person. And when I got here, you realize he's not what everybody says he is.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."

Bryant essentially taught Sasha Vujacic how to study scouting video, resulting in the gunning Vujacic evolving into a designated defensive stopper in the playoffs. Bryant would text-message Gasol at 3 a.m. with reminders about staying tough-minded, and Gasol came away from the season acknowledging that he was bursting with pride that he fought through this time.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/bryant-59921-ariza-gasol.html

:applause:

[KG215]

"I used it like it was the Bible," Ariza said.

What we were talking about was the shooting-practice program given to Ariza entering the summer before this season by one Kobe Bryant.

The meaning of the gesture to Ariza -- and its net effect in transforming his jump shot and thus this Lakers championship team -- makes it the quintessence of the latter-day Bryant as a teammate.

It pushed Bryant forward even further in prioritizing his teammates' development. Sharing his personal shooting program with Ariza was akin to unlocking the vault.

"Getting that from him? Kind of cool, kind of cool," Ariza said. "Because before I got here, you always hear how he's this certain type of person. And when I got here, you realize he's not what everybody says he is.

"I just got in the gym every day and worked. I used what he told me, used some things that he gave me to do. And I just worked."

Bryant essentially taught Sasha Vujacic how to study scouting video, resulting in the gunning Vujacic evolving into a designated defensive stopper in the playoffs. Bryant would text-message Gasol at 3 a.m. with reminders about staying tough-minded, and Gasol came away from the season acknowledging that he was bursting with pride that he fought through this time.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/bryant-59921-ariza-gasol.html

:applause:
:applause:

No one is worthy, but Kobe still imparts the endless depths of his knowledge and wisdom upon any willing soul. He's so powerful that, by simply walking by a crowd of random people, they throw their hands into the air and go into a crazed hysteria. Some even using whatever picture taking device they have on them, so they can get some sort of picture of Kobe to blow-up and hang on their wall to pray to every day.

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/71848589.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[9erempiree]

:applause:

No one is worthy, but Kobe still imparts the endless depths of his knowledge and wisdom upon any willing soul. He's so powerful that, by simply walking by a crowd of random people, they throw their hands into the air and go into a crazed hysteria. Some even using whatever picture taking device they have on them, so they can get some sort of picture of Kobe to blow-up and hang on their wall to pray to every day.

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/71848589.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I don't usually agree with your radical beliefs of basketball but this is I have to agree.

[Rubio2Gasol]

:lol - You guys are too funny. Wonderful impersonation of 9premeire and KenethGriffin. :applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The one that didn't ditch his teammates in his prime to sit the bench for the Birmingham Barons.

[Money 23]

That one that can manage to lead a squad of Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, and Steve Nash to a BLISTERING

15 - 16 record

[KG215]

The one that didn't ditch his teammates in his prime to sit the bench for the Birmingham Barons.
/thread

Kobe's apostles brought it hard and heavy to this thread. I've been converted. Those dumbass "Jordan Mythologists" had no chance in this fight.

[pauk]

Similar leaders as well... same kind of style. Kobe probably has a better understanding of the game, MJ more influential.

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/no%20no%20no/grand/154f2xk.gif

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://i.imgur.com/ABmP8.png

[9erempiree]

MJ was very talented but he was a cancer to his teams.

He left the Bulls in ruins, left the Wizards in shambles and now destroying the Bobcats.

I would say Kobe is a better leader in all aspects.

[eddiem4s]

LOL. Kobe should not be in the same breathe as Jordan. The comparison should be Duncan or Jordan. Duncan has been that dominant. Kobe is a good player. Nothing more nothing less. Kobe is definitly not in the same league as the all-time greats. His entire career was based on copying Jordan. He is obsessed with Jordan and copies everything from his facial gestures to the way he talks and acts. Kinda creepy really. Out here in Cali you either fall into 2 catagories---Laker fan or Kobe fan. I am a Laker fan. Time will show that Kobe is one of the luckiest players ever by playing for the Lakers.

[9erempiree]

LOL. Kobe should not be in the same breathe as Jordan. The comparison should be Duncan or Jordan. Duncan has been that dominant. Kobe is a good player. Nothing more nothing less. Kobe is definitly not in the same league as the all-time greats. His entire career was based on copying Jordan. He is obsessed with Jordan and copies everything from his facial gestures to the way he talks and acts. Kinda creepy really. Out here in Cali you either fall into 2 catagories---Laker fan or Kobe fan. I am a Laker fan. Time will show that Kobe is one of the luckiest players ever by playing for the Lakers.

You might as well say Kobe copies MJ because they are black.

They wear Nike and speak english.

We can go as far as, Kobe copies MJ because he drives a car.

:facepalm

[eddiem4s]

You might as well say Kobe copies MJ because they are black.

They wear Nike and speak english.

We can go as far as, Kobe copies MJ because he drives a car.

:facepalm


just an opinion. not every Laker fan thinks Kobe is the greatest. like i said you either a laker fan or a Kobe fan. its all good to disagree.

[KG215]

http://i.imgur.com/ABmP8.png
:applause:

:bowdown:

[pauk]

MJ was very talented but he was a cancer to his teams.

He left the Bulls in ruins, left the Wizards in shambles and now destroying the Bobcats.

I would say Kobe is a better leader in all aspects.

This!

also:

Kobe 2 fmvp > Jordan 6 fmvps (The league handed them to MJ, it was a fluke)

Kobe 1 mvp > Jordan 5 mvps (Its just a "team accomplishment", Kobe had to work for his MVP much harder)

Kobe 5 rings > Jordan 6 rings (Jordan was carried by Pippen & most stacked team ever, couldnt do crap without Pippen)

Kobe Da Goat, Da Gawd, Da Legend >>>>>>>>>>>>>



As far as leadership goes, here is Kobe leading & learning Jordan:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/sportatorium/Kobe-Jordan.jpg
http://rone92q.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/jordan-kobe.jpg


http://memecrunch.com/meme/32UH/and-then-god-put-a-man-by-the-name-of-kobe-bryant-into-a-womens-womb/image.png

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL. Kobe should not be in the same breathe as Jordan. The comparison should be Duncan or Jordan. Duncan has been that dominant. Kobe is a good player. Nothing more nothing less. Kobe is definitly not in the same league as the all-time greats. His entire career was based on copying Jordan. He is obsessed with Jordan and copies everything from his facial gestures to the way he talks and acts. Kinda creepy really. Out here in Cali you either fall into 2 catagories---Laker fan or Kobe fan. I am a Laker fan. Time will show that Kobe is one of the luckiest players ever by playing for the Lakers.

Out here in Cali there are two types of people

1. People who are actually from here
2. People who say "Cali"

:facepalm

[eddiem4s]

Out here in Cali there are two types of people

1. People who are actually from here
2. People who say "Cali"

:facepalm

wow. you know whos who if they disagree with your view by reading text. incredible.

[Money 23]

Kobe's been ridiculously lucky, and spoiled with his rosters.

For the two seasons he endured a bad roster, he cried to the point of going on talk show after talk show saying he wanted to ditch LA and go play in Chicago or even Pluto.

Anywhere but LA. He dealt with a bad roster for just two seasons and was PUBLICLY crying. That's mighty different from complaining behind the scenes. Guy has always been spoiled.

It is kind of pathetic as leader that he's managed to lead a squad of D12, Gasol, Nash, Artest, Jamison to a 15 - 16 record.

While apparently putting up shockingly hollow MVP caliber numbers of 29 / 5 / 5 ... that seemingly don't have much in game impact, and hasn't allowed him to singularly take over games the way he used to in order to pull out victories.

[pauk]

http://i.imgur.com/ABmP8.png

/thread

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe's been ridiculously lucky, and spoiled with his rosters.

For the two seasons he endured a bad roster, he cried to the point of going on talk show after talk show saying he wanted to ditch LA and go play in Chicago or even Pluto.

Anywhere but LA. He dealt with a bad roster for just two seasons and was PUBLICLY crying. That's mighty different from complaining behind the scenes. Guy has always been spoiled.

It is kind of pathetic as leader that he's managed to lead a squad of D12, Gasol, Nash, Artest, Jamison to a 15 - 16 record.

While apparently putting up shockingly hollow MVP caliber numbers of 29 / 5 / 5 ... that seemingly don't have much in game impact, and hasn't allowed him to singularly take over games the way he used to in order to pull out victories.

Clearly this is what a "true" leader would do...

http://www.birminghamprosports.com/birminghambarons2/picture07.jpg

[pauk]

Clearly this is what a "true" leader would do...

http://www.birminghamprosports.com/birminghambarons2/picture07.jpg

omg yes! he left his own team to play baseball.... horrible leader!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

omg yes! he left his own team to play baseball.... horrible leader!

How that is even debatable in your mind is beyond me, the depths of the NIKE machine is scary.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/michael-joradan-sports-illustrated.jpg

[pauk]

How that is even debatable in your mind is beyond me, the depths of the NIKE machine is scary.

Exactly!!

1. Kobe
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Lebron
10. Hakeem

11-20. Jordan

[eddiem4s]

Kobe's been ridiculously lucky, and spoiled with his rosters.

For the two seasons he endured a bad roster, he cried to the point of going on talk show after talk show saying he wanted to ditch LA and go play in Chicago or even Pluto.

Anywhere but LA. He dealt with a bad roster for just two seasons and was PUBLICLY crying. That's mighty different from complaining behind the scenes. Guy has always been spoiled.

It is kind of pathetic as leader that he's managed to lead a squad of D12, Gasol, Nash, Artest, Jamison to a 15 - 16 record.

While apparently putting up shockingly hollow MVP caliber numbers of 29 / 5 / 5 ... that seemingly don't have much in game impact, and hasn't allowed him to singularly take over games the way he used to in order to pull out victories.

agree. Kobe only lead a team for 2 years. those years were without Pau and Shaq. That is when he was the "man" and in his "prime". LA did not make the playoffs one year and swept the other. Kobe was a non-factor really. For those that say that Kobe has 5 rings i say the Lakers got the 5 rings not Kobe. Shaq was the reason for the first 3 and Pau was the main reason for the other 2. Kobe played an important role but was not the main reason for all them.

[Money 23]

omg yes! he left his own team to play baseball.... horrible leader!
Then came back an casually won another 3 peat, while setting the best single season team record of all-time and tying the old record the very next season.

Basically taking a 2nd round exit playoff team, and making them a three peat winner, and considered one of the best teams of all-time.

The best back to back season team record of all-time, too.

72-10
69-13

:eek:

[pauk]

Then came back an casually won another 3 peat, while setting the best single season team record of all-time and tying the old record the very next season.

Basically taking a 2nd round exit playoff team, and making them a three peat winner, and considered one of the best teams of all-time.

The best back to back season team record of all-time, too.

72-10
69-13

:eek:

He clearly got carried, cmon... Jordan needs to be in the team so they can carry him and win, or else they cant win if they dont have anybody to carry....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Then came back an casually won another 3 peat, while setting the best single season team record of all-time and tying the old record the very next season.

Basically taking a 2nd round exit playoff team, and making them a three peat winner, and considered one of the best teams of all-time.

The best back to back season team record of all-time, too.

72-10
69-13

:eek:

All the more reason to believe his lack of leadership demonstrated in his embarrassing baseball stint cost the Bulls 2 more titles. :confusedshrug:

[I<3NBA]

All the more reason to believe his lack of leadership demonstrated in his embarrassing baseball stint cost the Bulls 2 more titles. :confusedshrug:
wouldn't his absence prove more that without his leadership the Bulls sucked? which if you have a brain, would prove he's quite the leader.

[Segatti]

Exactly!!

1. Kobe
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Lebron
10. Hakeem

11-20. Jordan

Shaq is way too high. He only won a three-peat being carried by Kobe.

[STATUTORY]

Exactly!!

1. Kobe
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Lebron
10. Hakeem

11-20. Jordan

:facepalm don't be stupid. MJ is a top 10 player of all time

[Jacks3]

http://i.imgur.com/ABmP8.png
Truly the GOAT leader. :bowdown:

[9erempiree]

I'm going with Kobe because one has to think why no teams offered MJ one single contract after the 98 season.

Probably wasn't a very good leader.

[Jacks3]

We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his ass into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility

I'll let them stand up and take responsibility for themselves.

"We have to do some things. We need to make some changes."

"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here."

"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"Give me the fu*king ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."

"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue - AWESOME!

"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"..........

"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his ass out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson

"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch

"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)

Teamate says "But MJ, you had two guys on you."

Jordan replies "Yeah, but one was Fred Roberts."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team."

What a great leader. :bowdown:

[guy]

If you take their regular season win-loss records in games they played, Jordan's teams averaged 54.00 wins per 82 games and Kobe's teams averaged 53.93 wins per 82 games. So Jordan has an edge despite the fact that he spent way more of his career, nearly half, on bad teams while Kobe didn't even play 20% of his career on bad teams and was the best player on all of his teams unlike Kobe who was even coming off the bench for some of his career. And by the way, since 04 which was when Kobe became leader of his team, his teams averaged 51.07 wins per 82 games, and not even close to half of that time was on bad teams.

Seriously, how is this even a debate? If Jordan isn't a better leader, then the only other explanation would be that Jordan was just even more talented and dominant.

[Money 23]

He clearly got carried, cmon... Jordan needs to be in the team so they can carry him and win, or else they cant win if they dont have anybody to carry....
I know right? Totally carried.

To retire for two seasons after your father's death, and after no one presented any challenge to you on a personal level and walk away to try and play ANOTHER professional sport?

Then come back face new challenges and dominate AGAIN?

LEGEND

And by happenstance given his personal agenda while grieving his father's death, he showed his value to his franchise. A 2nd round team at best w/o Jordan.

With MJ ... three time champ, and best team EVER talks within the sports community.

GOAT

[pauk]

:facepalm don't be stupid. MJ is a top 10 player of all time

:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

wouldn't his absence prove more that without his leadership the Bulls sucked? which if you have a brain, would prove he's quite the leader.

I agree he was quite the leader other than the two seasons of his prime in which he completely abandoned them.

[RRR3]

http://i.imgur.com/ABmP8.png
How dumb are you? Jordan was long retired. YMF has brain damage :roll:

[guy]

I agree he was quite the leader other than the two seasons of his prime in which he completely abandoned them.

Abandoned? What the hell? Was that his family? :oldlol: It was his job and he retired from it. People have a right to do that. He didn't retire in the middle of an important part of the task i.e. like the middle of the regular season or playoffs. Seriously. You can't be this stupid. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How dumb are you? Jordan was long retired. YMF has brain damage :roll:

True I did forget that Jordan blessed his front office leadership talent to two woeful franchises.

http://i.imgur.com/qdi9Y.png

[DMV2]

How dumb are you? Jordan was long retired. YMF has brain damage :roll:
I agree with YMF, Jordan is responsible for the Wizards failures the past 5 seasons.

The guy even had the nerve to show up at the Hall of Fame induction in 2009. What an asshole!

[Rasheed1]

How dumb are you? Jordan was long retired. YMF has brain damage :roll:


:oldlol: I was wondering the same thing.... WTF was that?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Abandoned? What the hell? Was that his family? :oldlol: It was his job and he retired from it. People have a right to do that. He didn't retire in the middle of an important part of the task i.e. like the middle of the regular season or playoffs. Seriously. You can't be this stupid. :oldlol:

Never said he didn't have the right to do what he did. It's a free country. Obama could resign tomorrow but that wouldn't make him a great leader.

[KG215]

Never said he didn't have the right to do what he did. It's a free country. Obama could resign tomorrow but that wouldn't make him a great leader.
Yes, because Jordan retiring from the NBA, after the season and playoffs were complete, is comparable to the POTUS resigning from office mid-term in terms of leadership ability.

[Rasheed1]

Never said he didn't have the right to do what he did. It's a free country. Obama could resign tomorrow but that wouldn't make him a great leader.


:roll: Obama just ran for a 2nd term... He cant just resign.. He's not Palin.. lol

[RRR3]

True I did forget that Jordan blessed his front office leadership talent to two woeful franchises.

http://i.imgur.com/qdi9Y.png
You're a goddamn idiot. What the **** does this have to do leadership AS A PLAYER?

Seriously Jeff, ban these idiots like YMF, statutory, 9er, etc.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ye, because Jordan retiring from the NBA, after the season and playoffs were complete, is comparable to the POTUS resigning from office mid-term in terms of leadership ability.

Sorry I meant the 20th of January. His first term is officially over then. Peace out. I'm going to be play YMCA basketball instead.

- Love,

Barack Obama GOAT leader

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're a goddamn idiot. What the **** does this have to do leadership AS A PLAYER?

Seriously Jeff, ban these idiots like YMF, statutory, 9er, etc.

"Front office leadership" was clearly stated :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Sorry I meant the 20th of January. His first term is officially over then. Peace out. I'm going to be play YMCA basketball instead.

- Love,

Barack Obama GOAT leader

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
That's still not the same thing as retiring from a professional sports job.

[Nevaeh]

I agree with YMF, Jordan is responsible for the Wizards failures the past 5 seasons.

The guy even had the nerve to show up at the Hall of Fame induction in 2009. What an asshole!

Exactly. That time spent on stage talking about how great he used to be could've been spent in the gym, and finally helping the Wizards get over the hump. Props to posters like YMF and KG215 (who has FINALLY snapped out of that Nike-induced coma of his) for bringing truth and balance back to ISH.

:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That's still not the same thing as retiring from a professional sports job.

It wasn't a retirement. It was a vacation. You don't get three retirements.

[KG215]

It wasn't a retirement. It was a vacation. You don't get three retirements.
It's still not the same thing.

[9erempiree]

It wasn't a retirement. It was a vacation. You don't get three retirements.

basically this.

without the 2 vacation, I don't think they get the 2nd 3peat after the grueling long 3peat season they had.

[rmt]

Kobe fans are so funny. Their hero can do no wrong - from snitching to throwing team mates under the bus to attempted rape charges to not making the playoffs to quitting in game 7 of a playoff series to whining while "leading" a cast of DH, Gasol, Nash and MWP to a sub .500 record. That's some leader for you.

What's ironic is that you choose to compare him to the very person that he's spent most of his life copying when he's just a pale imitation of the true original.

[DMV2]

It wasn't a retirement. It was a vacation. You don't get three retirements.
Haha, this is actually a great line! :oldlol:

[RRR3]

I remember when I pointed out YMF's hero called MJ better than him and YMf said it was only because Kobe wasn't Retired yet or some shit. Dude honestly thinks Kobe is better than Jordan. Pathetic.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's still not the same thing.

Don't you get it. There is no same thing. No other legendary player quit on their championship level team to goof around for a couple years. In baseball a few Hall of famers gave up years of their career to fight in wars. There is no direct comparison because others have more respect for the game and their teammates than that.

[9erempiree]

I remember when I pointed out YMF's hero called MJ better than him and YMf said it was only because Kobe wasn't Retired yet or some shit. Dude honestly thinks Kobe is better than Jordan. Pathetic.

stop being a sheep and make up your own mind by watching the game. Instead of going with popular opinion, you should make up your own mind who the GOAT is.

Political correctness in today's society are influencing too many opinions. He must have invented the game too eh?:facepalm

I sometimes have to agree that MJ is the GOAT, so his fans and society's sheeps can shut the heck up with their incoherent rambling about him.

[Rasheed1]

What's ironic is that you choose to compare him to the very person that he's spent most of his life copying when he's just a pale imitation of the true original.

Reminds me of the Kno it all quote:

"Its like a music fan who loves an Elvis impersonator, but hates Elvis himself"

:oldlol: Its the funniest thing in the world to watch kobe fans jumping through these hoops

[Nevaeh]

Kobe fans are so funny. Their hero can do no wrong - from snitching to throwing team mates under the bus to attempted rape charges to not making the playoffs to quitting in game 7 of a playoff series to whining while "leading" a cast of DH, Gasol, Nash and MWP to a sub .500 record. That's some leader for you.

What's ironic is that you choose to compare him to the very person that he's spent most of his life copying when he's just a pale imitation of the true original.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/no.gif

Kobe wasn't "copying" him, he was actually just imitating MJ because he knew how quickly Jordan was already being forgotten by the league. Without Kobe, Jordan would just be known as "that bald dude with the shoes".

Wow, it's kinda FUN being a Kobe fan............Thanks KG215!!

[rmt]

Don't you get it. There is no same thing. No other legendary player quit on their championship level team to goof around for a couple years. In baseball a few Hall of famers gave up years of their career to fight in wars. There is no direct comparison because others have more respect for the game and their teammates than that.

What you don't get is that the game and one's team mates are no comparision to the murder of one's FATHER. That he was capable to taking off two years and come back and threepeat is a testament to how great he was. And this is coming from some one who disliked MJ.

[Horatio33]

I love how people can't see these "Kobe stans" are playing them like fiddles. they don't believe what they say, but people fall for it.

[Micku]

I don't know. You would have to be backstage and ask the teammates and etc on how has the most impact.

In the beginning of Kobe's career, he was sometimes too selfish. Sometimes he would take a shot with four guys on him even though he had Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Shaq, Campbell. He was trying to get his own. Phil Jackson changed that, and influence Kobe to be a better on court leader. As he aged, he matured. It seemed like he was a coach on the floor. However, you still say to the day that Kobe retired he would break out of the team offense to get something going. Even though Phil Jackson did say that Kobe was uncoachable and I think he partly left the first time because of him, I think they found a nice balance with it at the end. I think his best on floor leadership could've been 2007-09. With that said though, I do not know how much Fisher, Phil Jackson and Tex Winter had on leadership. But there are different types of leaders.


With Jordan, he changed the Bulls franchise as soon as he came in. He lead the team to the playoffs in his first year after the Bulls missed the playoffs for 3 straight seasons.

He was also selfish too. When Phil Jackson came in as the head coach, and told him we're going to pass the ball around, Jordan wasn't too fond of it at first I believe. He eventually trust in his teammates and played within the offense. In this aspect, he was better than Kobe. But we have reports that he was very hard on his teammates. Robert Parish even commented on and compared Magic-Jordan-Bird on leadership.

[quote] In one of his first practices with the Bulls, Parish botched one of the plays and was amused to find Jordan jawing at him just inches from his face.

[9erempiree]

Parrish would have killed MJ.

It's no surprise that Artest broke MJ's ribs. I bet they got in a fight and Ron basically lit up MJ.

Nobody has pictures of MJ with broken ribs, I'm sure there were a couple of swollen and black eyes that accompanied the ribs.

[9erempiree]

So just how does someone break two ribs being guarded? If Ron Artest were that strong, wouldn't the Bulls have been a little better?

The hottest rumor about Michael Jordan's rib injury in Chicago is that it occurred in a fight with Artest. Artest denies it, but being slammed to the ground is how you can break ribs, and that's the story going around.


It's being said that Jordan was in full trash-talk mode that day. He had been telling Antoine Walker of the Celtics to count on four losses to the Wizards next season, and he was hitting jump shots in the face of Artest and taunting Artest about his time with the Bulls and was getting personal. The story is that Artest stayed back in the lane, and then when Jordan came in the next time, Artest grabbed him and slammed him to the floor. That's supposedly when the ribs were broken.

Artest is also said to have thrown a punch at Jordan afterward. Word is the participants were sworn to secrecy or wouldn't be allowed back in the private gym near Jordan's West Side restaurant.


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-06-25/sports/0106250174_1_ribs-ron-artest-bulls

[Ne 1]

He cant just resign
Yes, he certainly can resign. Richard Nixon did exactly just that.

[Smoke117]

Both of these guys are overrated as "leaders". Pippen was more of a leader once he got his confidence than Jordan ever was. Kobe has nEVER been some kind of good leader. Being the best player on a team and winning championships doesn't make you a leader...it just means that.

[eddiem4s]

As time goes by Kobe will not be known as the greatest con man to ever strap his shoes. this wannabe Jordan imitador has suckered his stans and unfortunatly my Lakers.

[PHILA]

I'm going with Kobe because one has to think why no teams offered MJ one single contract after the 98 season.

:facepalm

At the time he wasn't even considering the idea of playing for another team.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrqZ7vZVmU&t=6m30s

[Mach_3]

[QUOTE]In one of his first practices with the Bulls, Parish botched one of the plays and was amused to find Jordan jawing at him just inches from his face.

[LoneyROY7]

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/misc/tumblr_m6uxagMwIU1raxo9mo1_500.gif

[KyrieTheFuture]

Both of them weren't good leaders so why bother? The lesser of two of evils still isnt a good leader.

[TheBigVeto]

I would have payed to watch Jordan fight a beast like Parish, they would have been carrying out that boy in a body bag :roll:

Yeah. Didn't Parish also learn some kind of martial arts to help improve his balance and conditioning? Jordan may be GOAT basketball player but Parish would've kicked his ass all over the place in a fight.

[Rasheed1]

Yes, he certainly can resign. Richard Nixon did exactly just that.


:facepalm

[TheBigVeto]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/09/the-time-robert-parish-refused-to-put-up-with-michael-jordan/



That website has link to the ESPN page where the original quote came from. Great article.

[TheBigVeto]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-06-25/sports/0106250174_1_ribs-ron-artest-bulls

Artest should do the same to Kobe.
But Kobe is too scared to talk trash to Artest.

[KOBE143]

Exactly!!

1. Kobe
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Lebron
10. Hakeem

11-20. Jordan
This is one of the most stupid post I've seen.. LeBron at 9, really? :facepalm

[scandisk_]

This is one of the most stupid post I've seen.. LeBron at 9, really? :facepalm

Here comes the biggest Jordan stan of ISH :applause:

[dunksby]

As somebody else said earlier, the correct answer is Phil Jackson. Honestly when are we gonna bring the coaching factor into discussions? Stans are so obsessed with their idols they are blind to everything else.