Start a franchise with Isiah Thomas or John Stockton?

[Notorious D.M.C]

choose one and why

[FatComputerNerd]

Thomas, but it's a tough call TBH.

Both were very skilled, but Thomas was more of a winner.

[LikeABosh]

Thomas because of better leadership, grittiness and better scorer when needed

[Jailblazers7]

Isiah. Awesome PG who can be the go-to scorer in the 4th. Plus, he is flashier and will get more fans into the stadium and more jersey sales meaning I'd be making $$$.

[Haymaker]

Isiah was a true franchise player. Stockton was a great distributor and defender, but lacked the scoring skills.

[midatlantic09]

Isiah.

Close thread.

[IGotACoolStory]

As great of a playmaker Stockton is, I'd argue Zeke is easier to build around.

Oh, and he's just the better player if we are strictly talking talents.

[AngelEyes]

Thomas is the better player to start a franchise, Stockton is the purest point guard of all time.

[MetsPackers]

Give me Isiah.
If i'm a franchise with a middle of the pack payroll i'll need less guys, and therefore less money, to build a contender around Zeke. He takes car of the scoring and playmaking role which I think would be more valuable to have. Even if you couldn't surround him well for a few years, he could probably still carry you to a low seed playoff birth; I'm not sure Stockton could make a team a winner by himself

[Budadiiii]

Give me the non white guy

[FatComputerNerd]

Give me the non white guy


:oldlol:

[Fudge]

Isiah easily. CP3 and Isiah's a closer comparison.

[97 bulls]

Id rather have Stockton. You want your PG to run your offense, hit open shots out to three point range, and not be a liability on defense. It basically boils down to how many difgerent types of team would either of the PGs be successful in. I think Stockton would fit better in more situations

[L.Kizzle]

Id rather have Stockton. You want your PG to run your offense, hit open shots out to three point range, and not be a liability on defense. It basically boils down to how many difgerent types of team would either of the PGs be successful in. I think Stockton would fit better in more situations
Lol, Zeke could do everything Stockton could.

[Droid101]

Lol, Zeke could do everything Stockton could.
Not even close.

Thomas: 29% career three point shooter, 45% Field goals.
Stockton: 38% three pointers, 52% field goals.

Stockton and it's not close.

He'd have two championships if Jordan didn't happen to enter his prime.

[L.Kizzle]

Not even close.

Thomas: 29% career three point shooter, 45% Field goals.
Stockton: 38% three pointers, 52% field goals.

Stockton and it's not close.

He'd have two championships if Jordan didn't happen to enter his prime.
One guy was the main option for his team, the other was either 3nd or third option.

Lol at he'd have 2 titles vs someone who has 2 titles and played that same Michael Jordan guy you mentioned.

[LoneyROY7]

Isiah Thomas.

[Xiao Yao You]

I prefer Stockton but to start a franchise it would have to be Isiah. If you had enough talent I'd want Stockton though.

[IGotACoolStory]

One guy was the main option for his team, the other was either 3nd or third option.

This. So much.

Although I would argue Stockton was the 2rd or second option most of the time.

[KyrieTheFuture]

This. So much.

Although I would argue Stockton was the 2rd or second option most of the time.
:roll:
I hope other people get it

[L.Kizzle]

:roll:
I hope other people get it
Clever guy. :applause:

[gin17]

isiah's heart, grit, and hunger was second to no one. i'd take him

[Lebron23]

Isiah Thomas

[TheBigVeto]

This. So much.

Although I would argue Stockton was the 2rd or second option most of the time.

LOL
One typo caused a lot of hilarity.

[scandisk_]

:roll:
I hope other people get it

Building around a second option :rockon:

[El Kabong]

I prefer Stockton but to start a franchise it would have to be Isiah. If you had enough talent I'd want Stockton though.
My thoughts too, you'd be able to get Isiah to really carry your offense to begin with, something that Stock wouldn't be able to do.

[Cladyclad]

Zeke duh

[SyRyanYang]

Building around a second option :rockon:
Someone thinks he gets it:facepalm

[PimpinZaZa]

Not even close.

Thomas: 29% career three point shooter, 45% Field goals.
Stockton: 38% three pointers, 52% field goals.

Stockton and it's not close.

He'd have two championships if Jordan didn't happen to enter his prime.


lol zeke actually did have 2 championships during that same time!

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'll go with Isiah, he's a great playmaker himself, but he also took over games many times when he needed to. I didn't see that much from Stockton, even in many games where Utah really could have used it. It just wasn't his game/mentality, and I think as a franchise player, that gives a real edge to Isiah. Zeke was a streak shooter, but he was also much more dangerous and creative off the dribble. He was also versatile enough to share ball-handling duties with Dumars and Vinnie Johnson and make the guard positions interchangeable.

[L.A. Jazz]

i would take Stockton, because i dont want my PG to be the main scoring option, and except for pure scoring John is the better player.

[ShaqAttack3234]

One guy was the main option for his team, the other was either 3nd or third option.

Lol at he'd have 2 titles vs someone who has 2 titles and played that same Michael Jordan guy you mentioned.

Yep, and he also played Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers a few times. If not for the Laimbeer call in '88, Detroit has that ring as well, in a game that saw Isiah drop 43 on a bad ankle. Stockton never came as close to a ring as that '88 Detroit/LA series, and Isiah won 2 actual rings in addition to that. Of course, Detroit's bid for a 3peat was stopped by Jordan's Bulls who Stockton gets a pass for losing against, and Isiah was injured in that series and ultimately never quite the same. Also lost in 7 games in the ECF to the Celtics in '87(the series with Bird's famous steal) I doubt they win it all in '87 regardless of whether they beat Boston, but Isiah's Pistons were in serious contention for a title every year from '87-'91. If we play the Jordan card in '91, then I'm still not sure they beat the Lakers, but it's possible. And a far more reasonable excuse is the Laimbeer call on Kareem's sky hook in '88, though calls like that are part of the game.

Regardless, it's pretty ridiculous to use the Jordan excuse for Stockton when Isiah was facing prime Bird, Magic and Jordan pretty much every year.

[Shade8780]

Isiah.



This. So much.

Although I would argue Stockton was the 2rd or second option most of the time.

:roll:

[Shade8780]

Building around a second option :rockon:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vPRY-rwCAxg/T7Dm1fxMgKI/AAAAAAAABKc/KVY5jQMuOy8/s200/stone-cold-laughing.gif

[Segatti]

Stockton

[ProfessorMurder]

I want the guy who plays at the same level for 20 years.

[bizil]

Give me Isiah over Stock. At PG guys like Isiah, Magic, Big O, Tiny, CP3, etc. give you the premium dimes, floor generalship, etc. u want from a PG. But they also have the alpha dog takeover ability of the best scorers in the L or damn close. Stock is just as good of a floor general-dime dropper and a better defender. But give me Zeke, to me the gold standard for smaller PG's under 6'3.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd probably go w/ Stockton because of his consistent play; here are their H2H stats:

goo.gl/jGHv8

Stockton: 13/12/3/2 on 46% shooting and 80% FT
Thomas: 23/8/4/2 on 50% shooting and 74% FT

[bizil]

Yep, and he also played Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers a few times. If not for the Laimbeer call in '88, Detroit has that ring as well, in a game that saw Isiah drop 43 on a bad ankle. Stockton never came as close to a ring as that '88 Detroit/LA series, and Isiah won 2 actual rings in addition to that. Of course, Detroit's bid for a 3peat was stopped by Jordan's Bulls who Stockton gets a pass for losing against, and Isiah was injured in that series and ultimately never quite the same. Also lost in 7 games in the ECF to the Celtics in '87(the series with Bird's famous steal) I doubt they win it all in '87 regardless of whether they beat Boston, but Isiah's Pistons were in serious contention for a title every year from '87-'91. If we play the Jordan card in '91, then I'm still not sure they beat the Lakers, but it's possible. And a far more reasonable excuse is the Laimbeer call on Kareem's sky hook in '88, though calls like that are part of the game.

Regardless, it's pretty ridiculous to use the Jordan excuse for Stockton when Isiah was facing prime Bird, Magic and Jordan pretty much every year.

great point! Isiah slayed the giants and was likely a top five player in the L during that time period. Isiah had the scoring acumen to challenge Bird, Magic, and MJ. When it came to taking over a game in the crucial moments, Isiah was on the level with MJ, Magic, Bird, and Nique or damn close. Stock wasn't close to that level of scorer.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Thomas.

Malone gets a bad rep for choking but Stockton didn't help matters at all.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'd take Thomas, but I can see the reasoning behind Stockton.


Stockton and it's not close.

He'd have two championships if Jordan didn't happen to enter his prime.

:oldlol: @ it not being close. It's fine to pick Stockton because he fits your vision of what you want your PG to be, but to say it's not close when a majority of posters have said otherwise and it would probably have been Thomas all the way back in the 80-early 90s circa.

And what about Jordan ? Stockton played from 84-03 and became a starter in 88. He only faced Jordan twice. How come he couldn't get to the Finals and win every other year he didn't face Jordan ? It's a weak and flawed argument. Especially considering Thomas's Pistons beat Jordan's Bulls in his prime, Bird's Celtics, and the Showtime Lakers.

[Lebron23]

I'll go with Isiah, he's a great playmaker himself, but he also took over games many times when he needed to. I didn't see that much from Stockton, even in many games where Utah really could have used it. It just wasn't his game/mentality, and I think as a franchise player, that gives a real edge to Isiah. Zeke was a streak shooter, but he was also much more dangerous and creative off the dribble. He was also versatile enough to share ball-handling duties with Dumars and Vinnie Johnson and make the guard positions interchangeable.


This

The difference between Stockton and Thomas is that Zeke elevated his game in the playoffs and NBA Finals.

The Bad boy Pistons were the only team to beat Bird's Celtics, Showtime Lakers, and Jordan's Bulls in the playoffs. Thomas made them a very dangerous team in the playoffs.

[Whoah10115]

The argument you could make for Stockton is that he was elite but you didn't have to build around him. Great scorers would love to play with Stockton.


I'd still take Isiah, but I could see how it would be easier to start with Stockton...

[tontoz]

If not for the Laimbeer call in '88, Detroit has that ring as well, in a game that saw Isiah drop 43 on a bad ankle.

Funny how often people mention that game but nobody mentions that Detroit nearly won the following game without Thomas.

[Levity]

My two favorite pg's of all time. Thomas is the better overall player, but stockon is the better PG. Defense, hmmm.. id probably give that to stockon, but like everyone has already said, the mere fact that zeke was able to take over a game in the scoring department at any given moment would make him the easy choice for starting a new franchise.

For an already established team looking for a floor general... well that could go either way depending on the make up of said team.

Put Stockon on the WCF suns, and do you think they make the finals that year?

[ZMonkey11]

Gonna have to go with my man Zeke!

[ThaRegul8r]

Isiah.

I wouldn't build a team around Stockton. He'd be a supplementary piece, not someone I'd start a franchise with.

[Djahjaga]

I'd take Thomas, but I can see the reasoning behind Stockton.



:oldlol: @ it not being close. It's fine to pick Stockton because he fits your vision of what you want your PG to be, but to say it's not close when a majority of posters have said otherwise and it would probably have been Thomas all the way back in the 80-early 90s circa.

And what about Jordan ? Stockton played from 84-03 and became a starter in 88. He only faced Jordan twice. How come he couldn't get to the Finals and win every other year he didn't face Jordan ? It's a weak and flawed argument. Especially considering Thomas's Pistons beat Jordan's Bulls in his prime, Bird's Celtics, and the Showtime Lakers.

I initially thought this thread was more of a "who would you take as your starting PG" rather than "who would you build around." So, I'd also take Isiah, but the argument for Stock isn't a bad one.

Some issues I have with what you said:

-Pistons didn't beat the Jordan Bulls in their prime. The only year you could argue they had it all together, but lost to the Pistons would be 1990, and even then it was a 7 game series.

-Celtics were dealing with a hobbled McHale and an injured Bird in the series against the Pistons. Magic was injured in the 89 Finals.

Stock had to deal with the Jordan Bulls in back to back Finals in an era where the league was much more diluted than when Isiah won. Isiah had Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, McGuire, and Johnson off the bench. Stock had Malone (better than anyone Zeke had, ok), Hornacek, and...Bryon Russell? Ostertag? Meanwhile, he had to deal with the most stacked team of the 90s. Jordan, Pip, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, even Kerr...

I just think the arguments used against Stock in this thread are a bit backwards. He definitely got f*cked more by circumstances out of his control (i.e. Jordan) more than Isiah. Isiah got in just before the Bulls took off. Stock didn't have a really capable team until later, and even then, he didn't have the talent Isiah had.

So, I'd still take Isiah to build around, simply because he was as pure a PG as one could be while still being capable of carrying the team with his scoring, but Stock shouldn't be discounted because he didn't win.

If this thread were, who would you want as your PG, Stock or Isiah, (i.e. not necessarily as your best player) I think I'd say Stock.

Also, there was a serious debate about who was better/more important for the Pistons -- Isiah or Dumars. It's only now that people have forgotten Dumars and seem to think Isiah willed that team to two titles somehow.

[ThaRegul8r]

Thomas.

Malone gets a bad rep for choking but Stockton didn't help matters at all.

This is what annoys me when people give players "the Jordan pass." It completely exonerates a player and the people who give the pass don't even look at the player's performance to see what role in did or didn't play in his team not winning. It's like it doesn't even matter of the player(s) didn't play well, as if not playing well has absolutely nothing to do with your team not winning.

For example, and I always use this. West only won one title, because he kept going up against The Man Who Would Not Lose. But if you look at West's performance, then you see that his performance was not the reason his team didn't win. He was Finals MVP in '69 even though his team lost. So you can't say the reason why he didn't win was due to something he didn't do, and in his case you could say, "Well, he had to face Russell." In fact, ironically, West actually played worse the year the Lakers finally won that in any of the years the Lakers lost, so as far as his performance goes, that doesn't really do a lot for me. But neither Malone nor Stockton were going down like West did. And for all the talk about, "Well, he would've had a ring if not for Jordan," it's not like Jordan was always in the way like Russell was for West. The Jazz only faced the Bulls twice. What were they doing all those other years?

As far as I'm concerned, players don't get passes when their own performance wasn't up to par. Because in that case, there was something else they could've done to help their team's chances of winning. But people want to absolve people of responsibility.

If a player's performance isn't lacking, then then, and only then, can it be said that he simply lost to the better player. Like in the case of West. He just lost to the better player. But that's because his performance warrants it, not because of making excuses for him.

[tontoz]

Stockton made his last All-NBA team 11 years after he made his first All-NBA team. Isiah's whole career lasted only 13 years.

Isiah had a weak jumper and relied heavily on his athleticism which is why his game declined quickly.

[bdreason]

I don't think it's very close. Thomas is the obvious choice for a franchise player.

[bizil]

We all know Isiah retired in his early 30's. We all know Stockton played until 40. Sure the longevity argument goes to Stockton. But Isiah did more than enough in his 12 years to justify his lofty status. Just like Magic did enough in his 12 initial years. Hell Jordan retired after his first 9 or 10 years as was ALREADY CONSIDERED WIDELY as the GOAT at 30 years old. So the Stock longevity thing doesn't wash for me. Isiah played great enough for a long enough time.

Isiah's body broke down earlier because of ALL THE REPONSIBILITIES he had from day one on the Pistons. He also played in a very physical era and I'm sure Isiah played through pain when he should have been sitting out. Isiah was frankly relied upon to do more for his teams to win than Stockton a lot of the time. Even when Isiah started to slip some, he was still one of the premier PG's on the planet. And don't forget, Dumars let Isiah play off the ball a lot. So don't get caught up in the slip in Isiah's assist numbers. Also it doesn't hurt that Stockton had the greatest PF (at the time) of all time and running that pick and roll to death.

The only CLEAR edge I give Stockton over Isiah is defense. When it comes to my PG's, Im taking an Isiah, Magic, or CP3 OVER a Stock, Rondo, or Mo Cheeks type. U get the premium leadership-dime dropping-floor generalship COMBINED with being one of the most talented scorers in the world. Isiah, Magic, and CP3 can all turn it up and actually go toe to toe with the big time scorers at the other positions. Stock NEVER could go toe to toe or be close to Jordan, Dominique, Bird, King, etc. consistently when it was GO TIME. Isiah proved time and time again he could. That's the difference, but Stock was a beast and clearly a point god like a Isiah. But a different kind of point god.

[tontoz]

Isiah's body broke down earlier because of ALL THE REPONSIBILITIES he had from day one on the Pistons. He also played in a very physical era and I'm sure Isiah played through pain when he should have been sitting out. Isiah was frankly relied upon to do more for his teams to win than Stockton a lot of the time.

That first Pistons title team had 5 guys averaging at least 13 ppg and Isiah's scoring efficiency was easily the worst of the 5. They were also a dominant defensive team and that definitely wasn't because of Isiah.

Isiah's game was based on taking it to the basket and there was a lot more contact allowed back then than there is now. That is why his game fell off, not because of his "responsibilities".


But Isiah did more than enough in his 12 years to justify his lofty status. Just like Magic did enough in his 12 initial years.

Give me a break trying to compare him to Magic. Magic was 1st team All-NBA when he retired due to HIV. Isiah made his last All-NBA team 2 years before their first title. Isiah's last few years weren't that good.

[Solid Snake]

I'd take Stockton without hesitation

[pauk]

John Stockton, because he was the best traditional PG in NBA history, he would drop dimes more efficiently, productively and with much longer longevity than anybody and thats just simply the PG i would go with offensively, i like that he can shoot the ball so well to.