Will Derek Rose Go Down As One of the Worst MVPs Of All Time

[joeyjoejoe]

Think dwight was better that year but bulls had much better record with rose clearly being the best on the team so dont hav a prob with it

[Pointguard]

You're making stuff up, things that are indicative of nothing. Anyone would respect your opinion that Rose was the MVP. And even tho I hate that you think it's not close I can try and respect that. But your posts here are bullshit. You're making things up. You can say whatever you want but Derrick Rose didn't always even guard the opposing PG's (and please, everyone spare me saying otherwise, because you're lying to me, and I watched too).

When did he not??? A lot of the times they put the better defender of their guards on Rose but he almost always guarded the point - maybe the exceptionally rare times he got five fouls but otherwise you are lying thru your teeth. Which is really pathetic. Rose guarded Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Westbrook and Rondo. You are lying if you are saying otherwise. I don't care about the rest. True sometimes he guarded Wade that season as well. But he unquestionably guarded those players the majority of every game he was healthy in.



The Bulls clogged the lane, the Bulls disrupted pick n' roll. Rose was no more than average as a defender. He stepped up more against the better PG's, I'll admit that because I'm honest when I argue. But he never played anything more than decent defense and mostly he went at the other guy and had an MVP year.

Name me a player that guarded a healthy Wade better than Rose in the playoffs? Fair question.



But you lie if you say he took his man on 1v1 all the time.
All the time??? Really. What good defensive teams double the other team's point guards. That's a fundamental flaw that unbalances the whole structural defense. Even Rose was rarely ever doubled until he penetrated toward the hoop or was trapped at the top of the key. Thibes rarely went to the trap except in desperate situations.


You lie if you tell me he fought over screens or went under and stayed with his man. You lie if you tell me he rotated better than anyone on that team other than Boozer. You lie if you tell me those things.
Did you ever see say anything like that. I said his one on one defense was impressive. But this doesn't surprise me with you.


You lie if you tell me that SVG didn't trust Dwight Howard at any point.
Did I ever say that. Are you drunk? What is wrong with you?


You lie straight. Nobody collapsed. Rose's team was better than Dwight's team and that you cannot argue. Rose lost Noah and Boozer for large chunks but Howard didn't have anyone on his team as good as Noah or even a disappointing Boozer or Luol Deng, for even 1 game. So be fair when you argue.

Sorry kid.... I'm not going to apologize to you because you don't know how an MVP case works. I don't care about DH's excuses for not winning. If he doesn't win I'm supposed to argue that against him. Rose won and could of had a lot of excuses but that never factored in. You think this is some sympathy case for DH for your crazy unbalanced, having no grounds argument.



Pointguard...you post a pic of Dwight in clown makeup but that's just a bullshit way to talk to someone else.

OK, I see that you are drunk and incoherent. But this is hilarious, you are confusing this site with one of your dating sites... and from what I can tell a clown has apparently stole one of your dates and you are having some-type of flashback?

[Pointguard]

There are those factors.. Rose was more respected and a better leader. But he wasn't providing close to the level of defensive impact Dwight was.

Did he need to?


Chicagos defense did not come from roses leadership.. Chicago is STILL playing all world defense right now with rose completely out of the picture. It's Deng, Noah, booze, and a bunch of role players committing under thibs slow pace system and defensive philosophies. They are executing a game plan..

But they needed Rose in the transition. Teams need leadership when young in transition with injuries more than anything. Look at it when Lebron, Wade and Bosh couldn't get it together; Kobe, Dwight and Nash much older guys with way more experience and less obstacles.


If what you are saying was true the team would've fell off without rose. They are still playing great without him. Guys like Noah provide great great leadership on D. His energy is contagious and they have one of the best perimeter defenders in the league in Deng. Rose gave them an offensive identity but his impact on defense was minimal

They are good but they weren't dominating the elite teams like they were with Rose. I think they won one game without him in the playoffs? They win games against teams they should at a very high rate and they beat some good teams. But Thibes says it was Rose who took the responsibility to be accountable for mistakes, to participate in the practice discussions, to get the coach and team on the same page. When Orlando got new players on his team I just can't see Howard being this way. And ultimately it mean more than his stellar defense. The team wasn't very cohesive.

[Glide2keva]

Why is this even a discussuion?

If people don't understand why Rose won MVP, let them be mad and butt hurt. he earned that award.

[SCdac]

SCdac, you know I have respect for you but your arguments here are lame. You respond to what you want to respond to and when someone complained that you ignored the rest you attempted to justify it.

Bro, if I responded to literally everything people said I would have like 6,000+ in a year. I ain't about that life lol ... like I try to be with my posts, be terse and to the point... I appreciate your opinion but you're very opinionated (to the point of calling people dumb, retarded, etc) and I try to respond to stuff that will ultimately be productive. As for Rose, he was clearly the better leader and player on an elite team that season.

[magicmanfan]

Not sure I even like the question here, but Dirk's MVP is the
biggest joke I've seen in 33 years. His D was among the worst
in the league that year. I agree he is a shooting god, but he
was terribly one-dimensional back then (and is not much better
now).

[Legends66NBA7]

He might, since there were certainly more deserving players, but I can see why the argument for Rose is valid.

Karl Malone's MVP's were worse, IMO. No clue how he got it over Jordan in 97 and Duncan or Mourning more valid in 99. Malone did deserve MVP in 98.

Wes Unseld is a strange one because he won the MVP in 69 but never got serious consideration again.

I didn't like Dirk's MVP that much, but he was the best player on the best team.

I agree with Nash in 05 (I do see the case for Shaq), but not in 06 (I thought Bryant or James were MVP).

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dirk was definitely the right choice for MVP in 2007. That Mavs team was a regular season juggernaut. And he led them to 67 wins with an unimpressive supporting cast.

[SilkkTheShocker]

This is all wrong


This. Cleveland didn't have enough wins to put LeBron into serious consideration. It was Kobe/CP3/KG from start to finish pretty much.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Just say you didn't watch the games. They don't double the pgs. And the guards weren't getting around Rose. So when we saw Rose steal from Paul at midcourt, block Deron Williams layups, keep Nash out of the lane, it was the whole team I actually saw guarding them?

I don't watch games? Wow, this coming from the guy who does little more than spit out sports cliches.....


Ohhh so self control and loosing self control, a real problem DH had in the stretch run doesn't mean anything. When the coach doesn't have enough confidence in you to guard a rookie has nothing to do with the ship is sinking and I can't trust you. Him not playing well when it counted most and getting suspended as well has nothing to do with the season. If DH was the leader Rose was he would have said no, let me guard him. I got this.

You really have very little understanding of how a center make his biggest impact defensively. Oh, and this importance you place on head to head match ups is really funny when you play an 82 game season. Again, they won that Kings game so you obsessing about it shows that you're just grasping at straws.

By the way, I was critical of Dwight's technicals that year, but it didn't decide their season. Even if he plays both of those games and they win, they're still 54-28, not good enough to catch Boston.


The one game is indicative of the collapse, his coach knowing he isn't a leader or too good with self control.

Wow, completely grasping at straws. Yeah....a game they WON vs the Sacramento ****ing Kings eliminates Dwight from MVP contention. Sure. :facepalm


It didn't have to be - but his role of leadership had more impact than Howard's team play. IE, I will tell you this. The whole organization knew they could turn to Derrick Rose to guard Wade and have full confidence he was up for it. Why would Orlando have any confidence in DH?

More cliches, honestly, if you pretty much conceded their impact defensively wasn't close then stop bringing it up. You're comparing a point guard to a center defensively. You think Orlando's defense would be better if Howard just said "I'll guard whatever big man is best." Sorry, doesn't work like that. His help defense was far too important. That's why lock down post defenders are nowhere near the defensive anchors Dwight was.

It really shows how much you're trying to dumb down basketball into a movie version of it. And it's clear that you're trying to make Rose into the Hollywood movie version of a basketball hero.


All I will say to that is no way would LA be in the mess it is in Rose on it. Heck, Wilt averaged 40 ppg over 7 years and you said he wasn't a top five offensive player IIRC. So I know you not quoting numbers. DH has no comp what so ever at his position. And if he isn't deeply ingrained to his teams success he doesn't belong in the conversation. Kidd frequently had invisible numbers but he was often among the best in the league. PG's can control a game in many different ways. But you got to have self control first.

Dwight this year has NOTHING to do with Dwight in 2011. And yes, there's a very good chance LA would still be a mess.

Oh, and putting Rose in the discussion with Kidd for impact beyond numbers is terrible. Kidd's help defense, passing, rebounding and IQ were all on a completely different.

Who says Howard wasn't "deeply ingrained" in Orlando's success? Only you. Everyone knew how much they relied on him. It's clear that he was more responsible for Orlando's success than Rose. Orlando did have less success than Chicago that year, so that in itself doesn't end the argument.


I don't think you seen Chicago play. Chicago wore you down, with Rose scoring the whole game with constant attacking. The goal of the game was to win late and they won more games in the 4th quarter than any other team. Obviously, they had teams they whittled early as well.

The goal is to win games, period. Here's your hollywood version of sports again. But a defense you can't score against, and a team you can't rebound against does tend to wear you down.


Don't talk about the post season because Rose won more games than Dwight played in. Dwight was a complete non-factor and if he didn't disappear in the regular season they would have gotten beaten a higher seed and went out with some pride. I was equally impressed with Orlando in the playoffs last year with that beast Big Baby winning an impressive game against a higher seed.

You brought up the playoffs, I just embarrassed you with your non-existent point. I already destroyed your "point" about Orlando getting higher seed.


So when were you against a player playing like Kobe? Wow, didn't I have an argument with you about Kobe not being the best player in the game in '06. Taking 27 shots per game??? When Lebron was more efficient and getting 31ppg 6.5 assist and going deeper in the playoffs? Or the very efficient Wade who had the same amount of assist 27ppg and winning it all. All I'm asking for is consistency.

What does Kobe have to do with anything? He was easily the best scorer out of the 3 and the most skilled, while being far more capable as a volume scorer, more capable as an off the ball player and a better defender than either.


The team was built around Howard. He was there and effective for five years there. He was the middle of everything.

But wait, I thought Howard wasn't fully ingrained in his team's success? :rolleyes: You know that you're suggesting Orlando had a tougher time surviving without Dwight because they relied on him more, right?


Chicago dominated the elite that year - that only happens with a great player. Right now they beat the teams they should. Rose the key piece on a stellar team. DH was the key piece on a good team. They could turn to Rose, but not to Howard.

So why is it then that a worse version of Howard got as far as Rose ever did twice, and farther if they can't turn to him?


Wow, sounds very similar to when Rose's team had the best record in the league and a new system, new teammates, new coach who never coached before, other injuries, inexperienced players. But when Lebron had better all around stats, better in every way possible and more efficient (he was more prolific and more efficient scoring wise) don't let that seem like a DH/Rose comparison. That's too hard to comprehend.

Difference is, Kobe's biggest strength was also the Lakers biggest strength, offense. Kobe was also much better than Rose was, and I'll address your analogy to show how flawed it is. Unfortunately for you, it's pretty easy to compare a SG to a SF. Kobe was the better scorer with the ability to post up, hit 3s or jumpers from all areas, play off the ball and create off the dribble. Lebron was the better athletic specimen, but his jumper was poor and he was pretty much left with the options of creating off the dribble, scoring in transition, or relying on his streaky jumper.

Kobe also happened to be the better defender, and even their playmaking was close. Lebron was the better pure passer, and typically the better playmaker I'd say, but Kobe's impact on his teammates was at least as great that year.


In March and April DH was non-factor in general. It was just amusing when Chicago beat them twice while playing them once. Orlando was going to lose the game - that was given being that they were on the collapse and Howard had control issues.

A non-factor? Complete bullshit.


There is no indication that at that time Kobe could handle a years worth of focus on him. In fact when Detroit focused on him he looked really really bad and that was with 4 more years of maturity. If you provided a Shaq like distraction for AI, the game hardest driver to the basket, it really wouldn't be close - he was better than Kobe. Shaq totally distorts the amount of attention every other player gets. As a defender you are off balance when a player like Shaq is on the court. There is no way you can regroup to catch Allen. Wade won right away with him and he was no where near the player he was when he was in his prime. And Wade was no where near as fast as AI.

You're comparing an emaciated 2004 Kobe coming off a knee surgery, a year's full of distractions mainly the flights to and from Colorado on game day, the potential loss of his freedom and marriage to 2001 Kobe? You're really suggesting that 2001 Kobe wouldn't have fared better against Detroit? You're also acting as if Kobe's play in a series vs a historically great defense is proof he couldn't handle being the primary focus of opposing defenses.

You really didn't watch Kobe play in 2001, did you? He could score against anyone, in fact, he could do that years before. He was probably the most skilled player by 2001.

Iverson could have potentially won with Shaq, but I seriously doubt the duo would have worked nearly as well. Iverson was less a consistent scorer than Kobe and needed more shots to play his game. Pretty clear that this wouldn't work as well with the offense going through Shaq first in the post. That's one thing people never consider. They always talk about the attention Shaq drew, but never give Kobe credit for being able to average nearly 30 ppg without the team being built around him, and do it on a championship team. Kobe being a better all around player is all the more reason why he's a better fit with Shaq.

So you pretty much came up with a bullshit theory that Kobe couldn't succeed with more attention, and Iverson being "the game's hardest driver" as your reasons for Iverson being better. Yeah, that's a real convincing argument.

[Pointguard]

I don't watch games? Wow, this coming from the guy who does little more than spit out sports cliches.....

Did you watch Chicago games? That's the question. You said I was spitting out cliches when I talked about leadership, players being on the same page and coming to the game with an energy that other players feed off. Still feel that way? Look at DH in LA now.



Oh, and this importance you place on head to head match ups is really funny when you play an 82 game season. Again, they won that Kings game so you obsessing about it shows that you're just grasping at straws.

By the way, I was critical of Dwight's technicals that year, but it didn't decide their season. Even if he plays both of those games and they win, they're still 54-28, not good enough to catch Boston.

If your best player, the DPOY, the guy the team is built around, says yeah, "I can guard the rookie!" the whole team feels they got leadership (LOL, yeah a cliche' to you). SVG wanted DH to step up. It says we got pride in what we do. Its inspiration, its energizing, its says the leader steps up when things were spiraling out of control. Its not two or three games, its the rest of the season. No way does that go down with KG or Rose. Here he is the DPOY!!! "sitting at the head of his table, acting like a waiter."

Magic saw Rodman dominating the boards and told Riley, "I got this." It totally flipped the whole series. Magic wasn't a great rebounder, but the team needed somebody to step up. You will say that's cliche'.



Wow, completely grasping at straws. Yeah....a game they WON vs the Sacramento ****ing Kings eliminates Dwight from MVP contention. Sure. :facepalm

The mentality is that of bench player not DPOY or MVP. Simple how does a MVP or DPOY respond to a challenge at a critical time? Think about it. He responded like a second stringer. Even mid game he never said let me get him - the game is tight and I'm the best man for the job. But this is Cliche' to you.



It really shows how much you're trying to dumb down basketball into a movie version of it. And it's clear that you're trying to make Rose into the Hollywood movie version of a basketball hero.
I never said Rose was great defensively. But he was important to the integrity of the team. The "I got this" attitude was very necessary for that young team going thru changes.

Coaches Thibes on Rose: "He comes in very day, he's there early he stays late, he studies, he practices hard, he gives you everything he has, he never quits on a play. Derrick does all the right things and isn't afraid to speak up. It's the way he carries himself, the way he's always ready, always alert, always into it. When things were going against us he was pulling everybody together. That's the leadership I'm looking for and that's what he's shown. That's the best leadership you can have."



Dwight this year has NOTHING to do with Dwight in 2011. And yes, there's a very good chance LA would still be a mess.
Bill Russell as a player isn't top twenty worthy. As a person he's top five and just maybe, number One. Leadership and the we got this attitude was one of his best qualities. Until Dwight says I am the center of the team and its my team, 2011 is just like right 2013. Sometimes if you don't act like you are the man, or the centerpiece, you simply won't get that respect. DH is a heck of a player. But you have to claim leadership and the top spot - notice how much better Miami got once they straightened that out. Kareem was very much an underachiever until he teamed up with a guy who had this attitude. Its not cliche' at all.


Who says Howard wasn't "deeply ingrained" in Orlando's success? Only you. Everyone knew how much they relied on him.
He has a near 50/20 game and they aren't in the game (Atlanta playoffs). He steps back and nearly out with a 8/8 game and its the only game they were in charge of. That's why I say that.


What does Kobe have to do with anything?... while being far more capable as a volume scorer


Kobe was a lot like Rose. Ball dominant and not that efficient. You acted like Dirk's efficient shooting and being off the ball was what made him great. I'm only asking for consistency.



But wait, I thought Howard wasn't fully ingrained in his team's success? :rolleyes: You know that you're suggesting Orlando had a tougher time surviving without Dwight because they relied on him more, right?
The team was built around him. And he was the main guy responsible for their success I admit that. But they couldn't turn to him when it counted. He was the MVP before the All Star break. I said that numerous times.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Did you watch Chicago games? That's the question. You said I was spitting out cliches when I talked about leadership, players being on the same page and coming to the game with an energy that other players feed off. Still feel that way? Look at DH in LA now.

Of course I watched Chicago games. Every year, I watch most of the great teams and great players as much as I can. I do remember that I didn't see much of Rose until after the first couple of months. You rely on cliches, because you don't seem to be able to asses much value to what a player actually does on the court. The intangible stuff is so subjective that it's an easy thing to cling to and keep repeating in an argument. You're crediting Rose for a lot of things that are also largely the coaches responsibility.


If your best player, the DPOY, the guy the team is built around, says yeah, "I can guard the rookie!" the whole team feels they got leadership (LOL, yeah a cliche' to you). SVG wanted DH to step up. It says we got pride in what we do. Its inspiration, its energizing, its says the leader steps up when things were spiraling out of control. Its not two or three games, its the rest of the season. No way does that go down with KG or Rose. Here he is the DPOY!!! "sitting at the head of his table, acting like a waiter."

How do you know what Van Gundy wanted Howard to do. Almost all of their defensive success was predicated on Howard helping out and blocking/altering shots, or getting rebounds to erase the mistakes of his teammates. Big man defense does not work like perimeter defense. And again, they won the game, so what they did worked out. All of the rest of your "point" on this pretty pointless subject is redundant nonsense that I already addressed with this post. If you've watched Howard as much as I have, you'd know that his strength was never being a great individual post defender, it's being the best the best help defender in the entire league from '09-'11.


I never said Rose was great defensively. But he was important to the integrity of the team. The "I got this" attitude was very necessary for that young team going thru changes.

I personally don't believe that their defense suffers much without him. They'd still have their best defenders, and a team full of defensive-minded players such as Deng, Noah, Kurt Thomas, Ronnie Brewer, Taj Gibson, Keith Bogans and a fantastic defensive coach. Rose was easily their best and most valuable individual player, but definitely not among the biggest reasons for their defense. I won't say he played absolutely no part because Rose carrying the offense allowed him them to focus on defense, but even so, they've been elite defensively without him. He missed 27 games and their defense didn't really suffer last year, and this year, they've been elite defensively without him playing a game. Just held Atlanta below 60.


Coaches Thibes on Rose: "He comes in very day, he's there early he stays late, he studies, he practices hard, he gives you everything he has, he never quits on a play. Derrick does all the right things and isn't afraid to speak up. It's the way he carries himself, the way he's always ready, always alert, always into it. When things were going against us he was pulling everybody together. That's the leadership I'm looking for and that's what he's shown. That's the best leadership you can have."

That's nice, but a coach saying positive things about his star is not really news-worthy. Van Gundy openly campaigned for Howard to get the MVP in 2011.


"Look, and I've said this before, to me, with his rebounding his scoring and his defense, I don't think there's anybody that impacts as many possessions in a game as Dwight does," Van Gundy said. "I think Derrick Rose has been great. I'll have no problem at all if Derrick Rose wins the MVP. They've got the best record in the East, he's been clearly their leader. You can make a great case for him.

"I think it's a hard choice to make, he's been great. But, I still don't think anyone impacts as many possessions a game as Dwight does.

I agree with the points he makes for Dwight, except for maybe Lebron, I don't know of anyone who impacted as many possessions, or played both ends like Dwight that year. Wade's defense was inconsistent and effort often wasn't there, while Rose and Dirk weren't great defenders, and Kobe's defense was poor until this stretch after the all-star break.



Bill Russell as a player isn't top twenty worthy. As a person he's top five and just maybe, number One. Leadership and the we got this attitude was one of his best qualities. Until Dwight says I am the center of the team and its my team, 2011 is just like right 2013. Sometimes if you don't act like you are the man, or the centerpiece, you simply won't get that respect. DH is a heck of a player. But you have to claim leadership and the top spot - notice how much better Miami got once they straightened that out. Kareem was very much an underachiever until he teamed up with a guy who had this attitude. Its not cliche' at all.

Actually, Dwight did call out his teammates and demand more from them during the 2011 season. By the way, Russell's success goes far beyond just leadership. How about being the most dominant defensive player ever as well as one of the 5 best rebounders of all-time in a time when that stuff was new to the game. He revolutionized the game, plus, he was a very good passer and a very smart player whose team's half court offense depended quite a bit on his passing, as well as setting screens, and his presence as a finisher.


He has a near 50/20 game and they aren't in the game (Atlanta playoffs). He steps back and nearly out with a 8/8 game and its the only game they were in charge of. That's why I say that.

Actually, they were in that game one, largely because of Howard. Other than Howard and Nelson, absolutely nobody else showed up. That's why Howard put up 46/19. You forgot to mention that they also won a game in that series when Dwight had 33/19 and played 48 minutes. They'll have an odd game where they're hitting threes like the game you're talking about(11 vs Atlanta's 4), Atlanta's first option has 5 points on 2/12 shooting and Atlanta ends up with 76 points on 36%, but that won't happen often.

You can't base too much on one game. Orlando's shooters were incredibly streaky because they couldn't do much else than that. If you could rely on them every night, Orlando would have had a more balanced attack. Saying Dwight wasn't "deeply ingrained" in Orlando's success implies that they wouldn't have been much worse without him, which has proven false. And Howard's ability in the paint offensively freed up the shooters and vice versa, while he covered their mistakes defensively and carried them on the boards. This wasn't a bunch of guys who just didn't fit alongside Howard. The team simply wasn't that good, and they were lacking a guy who could consistently create and be a second/third option every night. Howard did deliver most nights at both ends that season. Admittedly, he's been inconsistent in other seasons, but not then. You can pick some bad games, as you can for anyone else, but he was usually about around 20+ points, well over 10 rebounds and consistently anchoring the defense. You knew what you'd get from him most nights, especially after the Gortat trade when he stepped up and stayed on the court longer, avoiding some of the dumb fouls that have frequently plagued him. Everyone else? You never knew what you were going to get.


Kobe was a lot like Rose. Ball dominant and not that efficient. You acted like Dirk's efficient shooting and being off the ball was what made him great. I'm only asking for consistency.

Kobe was efficient in '08, and not overly ball-dominant in the triangle, certainly not compared to point guards or guys like Lebron and Wade. Besides, Kobe was easily a better player than Rose.

But yes, Dirk's ability to take over games and be an extremely consistent threat and a massive mismatch anywhere on the court is what made him great.


The team was built around him. And he was the main guy responsible for their success I admit that. But they couldn't turn to him when it counted. He was the MVP before the All Star break. I said that numerous times.

Why exactly was he the MVP then? They were on pace for the same 52 wins they ended up with. Maybe less.

[Pointguard]

Bro ... I appreciate your opinion but you're very opinionated (to the point of calling people dumb, retarded, etc) and I try to respond to stuff that will ultimately be productive. As for Rose, he was clearly the better leader and player on an elite team that season.

Yeah WHOA, you really suffer bad with that and I'm sure you are on people's ignore list because of this. Eventually, you are going to be responding to yourself. You lose people with that non-sense. Then you're not always coherent either. You post like you got an audience and a group of followers but you are far from that, because you decorum is like that of a caveman. Nobody is going to see your intelligence if you keep spoiling it with a lack of tact.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bill Russell as a player isn't top twenty worthy.

How so ?

[Pointguard]

How do you know what Van Gundy wanted Howard to do. Almost all of their defensive success was predicated on Howard helping out and blocking/altering shots, or getting rebounds to erase the mistakes of his teammates. Big man defense does not work like perimeter defense. And again, they won the game, so what they did worked out. All of the rest of your "point" on this pretty pointless subject is redundant nonsense that I already addressed with this post. If you've watched Howard as much as I have, you'd know that his strength was never being a great individual post defender, it's being the best the best help defender in the entire league from '09-'11.

Coaches have to challenge players when things aren't going right or when they are fading in the standings. As a couch coach I was wondering when it was coming. We do it just to feel where the players are at. That game against a scrub team was important and Howard didn't do the step up thing. Mid game do like Magic did. "I got this." The Russell thing "I got this." The Rose thing "I got this." Its cliche' only to those who have never played.


I personally don't believe that their defense suffers much without him. They'd still have their best defenders, and a team full of defensive-minded players such as Deng, Noah, Kurt Thomas, Ronnie Brewer, Taj Gibson, Keith Bogans and a fantastic defensive coach. Rose was easily their best and most valuable individual player, but definitely not among the biggest reasons for their defense. I won't say he played absolutely no part because Rose carrying the offense allowed him them to focus on defense, but even so, they've been elite defensively without him. He missed 27 games and their defense didn't really suffer last year, and this year, they've been elite defensively without him playing a game. Just held Atlanta below 60.
Right now the team is acclimated and they know their roles. If he had the same year this year I wouldn't be hyping him as much because it wouldn't be a new team, as much injuries, and a ton of adjustments. Seeing Miami and the Lakers have all sorts of problems with the newness gives me more respect for Chicago that year, despite I always recognized it and spoke about it here.


That's nice, but a coach saying positive things about his star is not really news-worthy. Van Gundy openly campaigned for Howard to get the MVP in 2011.

I am sure he didn't say anything about his leadership. And I only quoted him because its a dimension that was really needed for their success. Like I said, Miami and LA are much more experienced teams that obviously had the issue.


Actually, Dwight did call out his teammates and demand more from them during the 2011 season. By the way, Russell's success goes far beyond just leadership. How about being the most dominant defensive player ever as well as one of the 5 best rebounders of all-time in a time when that stuff was new to the game. He revolutionized the game, plus, he was a very good passer and a very smart player whose team's half court offense depended quite a bit on his passing, as well as setting screens, and his presence as a finisher.
I agree there but if he wasn't the inspiration he was to teammates and his "I got this" attitude they win like 3 or 4 rings. He's definitely not top 20. His mindset, was the difference maker. He wasn't supremely skilled with the rock (which you put a lot of stock on I noticed) and he wasn't a big time scorer. But his attitude affected all of his teammates and made him among the greatest.



Actually, they were in that game one, largely because of Howard. Other than Howard and Nelson, absolutely nobody else showed up. That's why Howard put up 46/19. You forgot to mention that they also won a game in that series when Dwight had 33/19 and played 48 minutes. They'll have an odd game where they're hitting threes like the game you're talking about(11 vs Atlanta's 4), Atlanta's first option has 5 points on 2/12 shooting and Atlanta ends up with 76 points on 36%, but that won't happen often.
Well it definitely seemed like if Howard was taking the shots they don't win that game. The only game they had real control in. The big DH game was over with about six or eight minutes to go. Atlanta was never pressed.



You can't base too much on one game. Orlando's shooters were incredibly streaky because they couldn't do much else than that. If you could rely on them every night, Orlando would have had a more balanced attack. Saying Dwight wasn't "deeply ingrained" in Orlando's success implies that they wouldn't have been much worse without him, which has proven false.
The next year without DH. They played more inspired than they did in that Atlanta series. They got up for every game and managed to win a game against Indiana. It looked like his teammates didn't really know how to take him in that Atlanta series.


And Howard's ability in the paint offensively freed up the shooters and vice versa, while he covered their mistakes defensively and carried them on the boards. This wasn't a bunch of guys who just didn't fit alongside Howard. The team simply wasn't that good, and they were lacking a guy who could consistently create and be a second/third option every night. Howard did deliver most nights at both ends that season. Admittedly, he's been inconsistent in other seasons, but not then. You can pick some bad games, as you can for anyone else, but he was usually about around 20+ points, well over 10 rebounds and consistently anchoring the defense. You knew what you'd get from him most nights, especially after the Gortat trade when he stepped up and stayed on the court longer, avoiding some of the dumb fouls that have frequently plagued him. Everyone else? You never knew what you were going to get.

The FO might have killed his chance of MVP. They changed the team that was built around him. You aren't going to be considered the MVP when they change their plans that were built around you. You are not going to be the most valuable player for two teams unless you got the best record or something but they didn't.


Kobe was efficient in '08, and not overly ball-dominant in the triangle, certainly not compared to point guards or guys like Lebron and Wade. Besides, Kobe was easily a better player than Rose. We were talking about '06. When you said Kobe was the best player in the game. Kobe was was taking 27 shots per game. He was the most dominant on the ball player I ever seen. He made Rose look like Dirk.


But yes, Dirk's ability to take over games and be an extremely consistent threat and a massive mismatch anywhere on the court is what made him great.

In the regular season you are talking about Rose the same way.


Why exactly was he the MVP then? They were on pace for the same 52 wins they ended up with. Maybe less.

There was a brighter star rose in the MidWest.

[Pointguard]

How so ?
They don't win as much for one. Offensively he lacks skills. He's the only top 30 guy like that - that wasn't offensively dominant or super skilled.

[Money 23]

Not sure I even like the question here, but Dirk's MVP is the
biggest joke I've seen in 33 years. His D was among the worst
in the league that year. I agree he is a shooting god, but he
was terribly one-dimensional back then (and is not much better
now).
Thank you, lord jesus someone who agrees. Plus, getting bounced in the first round as "MVP" on the team with the best record? It's a black mark on the award.

It was a weak year for MVPs, especially considering they couldn't give it to Nash even though he was better that season than he was in 2005 and 2006.

Should've been Kobe or Duncan.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Coaches have to challenge players when things aren't going right or when they are fading in the standings. As a couch coach I was wondering when it was coming. We do it just to feel where the players are at. That game against a scrub team was important and Howard didn't do the step up thing. Mid game do like Magic did. "I got this." The Russell thing "I got this." The Rose thing "I got this." Its cliche' only to those who have never played.

No, it's cliche to those who actually look at what happens on a basketball court as opposed to a movie screen. These things only go so far at the pro level where everybody is so good, and there are leaders in every locker room. You think the Magic/Lakers would have traded a younger Shaq for Nets era Jason Kidd?


Right now the team is acclimated and they know their roles. If he had the same year this year I wouldn't be hyping him as much because it wouldn't be a new team, as much injuries, and a ton of adjustments. Seeing Miami and the Lakers have all sorts of problems with the newness gives me more respect for Chicago that year, despite I always recognized it and spoke about it here.

You gotta be kidding me comparing their adjustment to Miami or LA. It's nowhere near similar with all of the stars who have to blend their games together or the expectations. You're giving all the credit to Rose when what they did remarkably well as a team was their defense.


I am sure he didn't say anything about his leadership. And I only quoted him because its a dimension that was really needed for their success. Like I said, Miami and LA are much more experienced teams that obviously had the issue.

This shit is so subjective, I'd prefer to focus on what happens on the basketball court. You're getting dangerously close to Tim Tebow territory.


I agree there but if he wasn't the inspiration he was to teammates and his "I got this" attitude they win like 3 or 4 rings. He's definitely not top 20. His mindset, was the difference maker. He wasn't supremely skilled with the rock (which you put a lot of stock on I noticed) and he wasn't a big time scorer. But his attitude affected all of his teammates and made him among the greatest.

I'm not going to bother discussing these scenarios. Russell has nothing to do with this thread either.



Well it definitely seemed like if Howard was taking the shots they don't win that game. The only game they had real control in. The big DH game was over with about six or eight minutes to go. Atlanta was never pressed.

Ideally, you don't want to have to lean so much on your star. And Howard average 22 ppg in Orlando's wins, so more often than not, he was leading them in scoring by a wide margin when they won.


The next year without DH. They played more inspired than they did in that Atlanta series. They got up for every game and managed to win a game against Indiana. It looked like his teammates didn't really know how to take him in that Atlanta series.

An odd win here or there doesn't really mean much to me. I do think Howard had alienated his team during the 2012 season, and I think that he pretty much gave up after 2011. Stealing a game or 2 in a series that you lose when you're playing with house money doesn't really tell me much. I've seen it happen countless times. Orlando would have never approached the playoffs in 2011 or 2012 without Dwight, yet were still a 50+ win team with him, which tells me more about his impact.


The FO might have killed his chance of MVP. They changed the team that was built around him. You aren't going to be considered the MVP when they change their plans that were built around you. You are not going to be the most valuable player for two teams unless you got the best record or something but they didn't.

What do you mean? They tried to improve the team and it backfired. Arenas was a gamble, but he was done and played like a scrub. They expected '08 or '09 Hedo and got role player Hedo. They didn't really change how they built around him, it was still shooters + Dwight. Just with worse players, and a better Eastern Conference.


We were talking about '06. When you said Kobe was the best player in the game. Kobe was was taking 27 shots per game. He was the most dominant on the ball player I ever seen. He made Rose look like Dirk.

My bad, I thought you were talking about the '08 MVP, which was brought up earlier. But no, Kobe wasn't more ball-dominant than Rose. He shot more, but the Lakers even had Lamar Odom at point forward quite a bit. The Lakers didn't completely abandon the triangle in '06, though they did go outside it significantly more than other years.

Either way, I think it was obvious that Kobe was the best player in the game in '06.


In the regular season you are talking about Rose the same way.

What do you mean?


There was a brighter star rose in the MidWest.

I completely disagree.

[Magic bird]

I know MVP doesn't always go to the best player. But Dirk, Dwight, Wade, LeBron, etc where all definitely better than him. And his numbers were far from eye popping.

Simply put?





NO

[Pointguard]

No, it's cliche to those who actually look at what happens on a basketball court as opposed to a movie screen. These things only go so far at the pro level where everybody is so good, and there are leaders in every locker room. You think the Magic/Lakers would have traded a younger Shaq for Nets era Jason Kidd?

LOL, so who was the leader of the Orlando team? You think Russell and Magic are on the same level as DH and Darko? You think its your TV playing a movie trick on you when you can't distinguish that? You think Magic on the current Laker team goes thru what those guys are going thru?

"Derrick has been tremendous down the stretch of games. What separates him from the other contenders for MVP is when you look at the Bulls' overall success. His winning attitude has become contagious. He gets better every night because he's so competitive. He stepped up on defense and his team has followed. That's the definition of leadership."
-- Scottie Pippen on Derrick Rose And apparently at the movies.
Thanks Sdac

Its obvious not every player posses leadership or a winning attitude.



You gotta be kidding me comparing their adjustment to Miami or LA. It's nowhere near similar with all of the stars who have to blend their games together or the expectations. You're giving all the credit to Rose when what they did remarkably well as a team was their defense.

You can't win without offense. Players have to get acclimated to their coach. It doesn't happen magically. There is not one coach on any level of ball that doesn't seeks out a player that will reach the team beyond the obvious level. That player makes it easier for the coach to get the lessons of sacrifice and giving it your all easier. Motivational coaches are a vast minority - there are usually more players that are on teams with that quality. How players adjust to new roles is best done by a player and not a coach.

There is no blending whatsoever going on in LA. DH plays his game and Kobe is playing his game. Nash is flexible and Gasol is odd man out. You need a movie screen to tell you that? And they are vets, now Lebron and Wade are not as complimentary and have similar strengths so I can understand a harmony issue which took a whole season long to reconcile.



This shit is so subjective, I'd prefer to focus on what happens on the basketball court. You're getting dangerously close to Tim Tebow territory. Seriously, you think the situation in LA isn't a matter of sacrifice, working together and leadership??? Why did you say Tebow?



An odd win here or there doesn't really mean much to me. I do think Howard had alienated his team during the 2012 season, and I think that he pretty much gave up after 2011. Stealing a game or 2 in a series that you lose when you're playing with house money doesn't really tell me much. I've seen it happen countless times. Orlando would have never approached the playoffs in 2011 or 2012 without Dwight, yet were still a 50+ win team with him, which tells me more about his impact.


My bad, I thought you were talking about the '08 MVP, which was brought up earlier. But no, Kobe wasn't more ball-dominant than Rose. He shot more, but the Lakers even had Lamar Odom at point forward quite a bit. The Lakers didn't completely abandon the triangle in '06, though they did go outside it significantly more than other years.
Kobe took a whopping 16 more shots than the next player on his team. Rose took five more than the next player. Rose took 24% of his teams shots and Kobe took 33%. Rose was delivering 3 more assist as well. And his team was really winning and very successful.




Dirk's ability to take over games and be an extremely consistent threat and a massive mismatch anywhere on the court is what made him great.
In the regular season you are talking about Rose the same way.
What do you mean?

Rose was taking over games from November til April. And he was putting constant pressure on teams with his ability to get to the rim. He wasn't guard able and the Bulls dominated the elite.

[ShaqAttack3234]

LOL, so who was the leader of the Orlando team? You think Russell and Magic are on the same level as DH and Darko? You think its your TV playing a movie trick on you when you can't distinguish that? You think Magic on the current Laker team goes thru what those guys are going thru?

"Derrick has been tremendous down the stretch of games. What separates him from the other contenders for MVP is when you look at the Bulls' overall success. His winning attitude has become contagious. He gets better every night because he's so competitive. He stepped up on defense and his team has followed. That's the definition of leadership."
-- Scottie Pippen on Derrick Rose And apparently at the movies.

Its obvious not every player posses leadership or a winning attitude.
Thanks Sdac

I never said they're all on the same level. I said every team has leaders, whether it's a veteran role player or the superstar. The value given is highly subjective, I prefer to look primarily at how they play the game on the court. You pretty much only talk about this type of stuff and either focus on 4th quarters or some irrelevant shit like the Sacramento game. It seems like you're just focusing on what would be shown in some feel-good movie rather than watching what's happening on the court over the course of an 48 minute game.


You can't win without offense. Players have to get acclimated to their coach. It doesn't happen magically. There is not one coach on any level of ball that doesn't seeks out a player that will reach the team beyond the obvious level. That player makes it easier for the coach to get the lessons of sacrifice and giving it your all easier. Motivational coaches are a vast minority - there are usually more players that are on teams with that quality. How players adjust to new roles is best done by a player and not a coach.

You can't win without playing both ends, but you can win 60+ games in the regular season by being truly great at one end and pretty mediocre at the other end. Chicago was one example, dominant defensive team, but mediocre offensively. Phoenix was also like that except they were great offensively and mediocre defensively, but also won 60+ twice.

You're right, coaches do look for leadership from the players, but the bottom line is that the players playing with energy is the coaches responsibility first and foremost.


There is no blending whatsoever going on in LA. DH plays his game and Kobe is playing his game. Nash is flexible and Gasol is odd man out. You need a movie screen to tell you that? And they are vets, now Lebron and Wade are not as complimentary and have similar strengths so I can understand a harmony issue which took a whole season long to reconcile.

What exactly does LA assembling a dysfunctional team of stars who don't complement each other and having a bad coach have to do with 2011?


Seriously, you think the situation in LA isn't a matter of sacrifice, working together and leadership??? Why did you say Tebow?

The situation in LA has to do with that, but also players who don't fit together and a terrible coach. I brought up Tebow because your use of cliches is bordering on what the Tebow fans were going on about when he was in Denver.


Kobe took a whopping 16 more shots than the next player on his team. Rose took five more than the next player. Rose took 24% of his teams shots and Kobe took 33%. Rose was delivering 3 more assist as well. And his team was really winning and very successful.

Since when is FGA an indication of ball-dominance? That just tells you how many shots you get up, not how you get them. For example, from the '89-'90 season on, Jordan wasn't especially ball-dominant due to the triangle, and Jordan's excellent decision making, but he was still regularly taking more shots than Lebron or Wade ever were despite not being nearly as ball-dominant as them at that time.

Of course Rose was picking up more assists, he was the point guard and Kobe was told by Phil to score that year. And Kobe did at a remarkable rate. Plus, I'm sure Rose's assists drop in the triangle.


Rose was taking over games from November til April. And he was putting constant pressure on teams with his ability to get to the rim. He wasn't guard able and the Bulls dominated the elite.

He's a great player who had a great season, but nobody is going to convince me he had the impact of a two-way big man like 2011 Dwight. Rose was a great scorer due to his athleticism, ability to create off the dribble and get to the rim and finish either with dunks, acrobatic lay ups or floaters. Solid, but not great shooter. And a good playmaker, but not among the best at his position at that point guard. Neither his decision making or passing were particularly remarkable. Nothing worth mentioning as far as defense and rebounding. He was right in the conversation for best point guard that year because he was a great scorer who was a solid playmaker.

[nathanjizzle]

pls stop bumping this poor, illinformed thread.

[Go Getter]

I never said they're all on the same level. I said every team has leaders, whether it's a veteran role player or the superstar. The value given is highly subjective, I prefer to look primarily at how they play the game on the court. You pretty much only talk about this type of stuff and either focus on 4th quarters or some irrelevant shit like the Sacramento game. It seems like you're just focusing on what would be shown in some feel-good movie rather than watching what's happening on the court over the course of an 48 minute game.



You can't win without playing both ends, but you can win 60+ games in the regular season by being truly great at one end and pretty mediocre at the other end. Chicago was one example, dominant defensive team, but mediocre offensively. Phoenix was also like that except they were great offensively and mediocre defensively, but also won 60+ twice.

You're right, coaches do look for leadership from the players, but the bottom line is that the players playing with energy is the coaches responsibility first and foremost.



What exactly does LA assembling a dysfunctional team of stars who don't complement each other and having a bad coach have to do with 2011?



The situation in LA has to do with that, but also players who don't fit together and a terrible coach. I brought up Tebow because your use of cliches is bordering on what the Tebow fans were going on about when he was in Denver.



Since when is FGA an indication of ball-dominance? That just tells you how many shots you get up, not how you get them. For example, from the '89-'90 season on, Jordan wasn't especially ball-dominant due to the triangle, and Jordan's excellent decision making, but he was still regularly taking more shots than Lebron or Wade ever were despite not being nearly as ball-dominant as them at that time.

Of course Rose was picking up more assists, he was the point guard and Kobe was told by Phil to score that year. And Kobe did at a remarkable rate. Plus, I'm sure Rose's assists drop in the triangle.



He's a great player who had a great season, but nobody is going to convince me he had the impact of a two-way big man like 2011 Dwight. Rose was a great scorer due to his athleticism, ability to create off the dribble and get to the rim and finish either with dunks, acrobatic lay ups or floaters. Solid, but not great shooter. And a good playmaker, but not among the best at his position at that point guard. Neither his decision making or passing were particularly remarkable. Nothing worth mentioning as far as defense and rebounding. He was right in the conversation for best point guard that year because he was a great scorer who was a solid playmaker.

The last part is categorically false.

When the Bulls were clicking and Rose was on he was a perfect floor general. Setting up Korver for threes, drive and dishes with Deng, drop off passes to Boozer and Noah....we just required him to score so much in a sloth like, newly developed scheme by Thibbs....it was a process to get everyone on the same page, and most time when things disnt work we just gave the ball to Rose and let him do his thing.

And about rebounding.....Rose is an excellent rebounder for his position....it just so happens that he has three guys who rebound the hell out of the ball, well four counting Taj, so people that just look at numbers won't see what he brings to the table.


There aren't many guards that are going to bully Rose....and he wins most matchups....well, he did in his MVP year.

[Money 23]

If the Bulls had SOMEONE to create other than Rose, and paired him up with another star and not some journey man like Keith Bogans, then Miami wouldn't have been able to zone up on Rose drive, and LeBron wouldn't have been able to pressure Rose and contest his jumpers on step backs ...

And this whole thread would be completely MOOT. I'd say Dirk's 2007 MVP is the worst MVP I've ever seen, especially given context. At least Rose led his team to the conference finals.

Malone 1997
Nash 2005
Nash 2006
Dirk 2007

Worst MVP selections I've EVER seen. Barkley in '93 is too, but it was a clear case of voter fatigue for Jordan.

[Pointguard]

I never said they're all on the same level. I said every team has leaders, whether it's a veteran role player or the superstar. The value given is highly subjective, I prefer to look primarily at how they play the game on the court. You pretty much only talk about this type of stuff and either focus on 4th quarters or some irrelevant shit like the Sacramento game. It seems like you're just focusing on what would be shown in some feel-good movie rather than watching what's happening on the court over the course of an 48 minute game.

Name me the other players on that team that were really creative that year? Who was creating their own shot? Who didn't get a boost from Derrick's penetrating? How come teams weren't penetrating? When they did well against three point shooting was it all Bogans? How come teams couldn't run on Chitown? Who maintained a better tempo for their team to thrive in better than Rose/Bogans? What point guard lead all guards (Kobe and Wade too) in points, rebounds and assist category? What point guard dominated the elite at his position? Guess who was third in blocks? Who was the games best penetrator in the game? Who was breaking down more defenses? Who was more clutch? What player on a contender had more offensive weight on them than Rose? Sounds like a pretty good 48 minutes to me.



What exactly does LA assembling a dysfunctional team of stars who don't complement each other and having a bad coach have to do with 2011?
Teams need leadership to adjust to new situations.



He's a great player who had a great season, but nobody is going to convince me he had the impact of a two-way big man like 2011 Dwight. Rose was a great scorer due to his athleticism, ability to create off the dribble and get to the rim and finish either with dunks, acrobatic lay ups or floaters. Solid, but not great shooter. And a good playmaker, but not among the best at his position at that point guard. Neither his decision making or passing were particularly remarkable. Nothing worth mentioning as far as defense and rebounding. He was right in the conversation for best point guard that year because he was a great scorer who was a solid playmaker.
LOL, who was the other point guard? You missed his biggest attribute. When any player gets from the perimeter to the rim its a defensive breakdown - the whole team has to go over how they are going to prevent him from getting to the rim. They go back to the huddle and discuss what went wrong in the team defense practice.

Doubling Howard is easy, you know who is supposed to do it. He was turnover prone, didn't handle doubles well, and wasn't likely to pass. He could only score from limited range. He wasn't remotely close to being Rose offensively in the first quarter and the distance increased as the quarter's progressed. Mentally he's not as sharp and his decision making was obviously weaker. In the end Dwight was limited in how much damage he could do and did do.

Overall his play was superb but the better defensive teams looked forward to a win when they played Orlando and pondered a way to stop Rose and then lost, without exception in the final four months. That's a too big of difference.

[Pointguard]

The last part is categorically false.

When the Bulls were clicking and Rose was on he was a perfect floor general. Setting up Korver for threes, drive and dishes with Deng, drop off passes to Boozer and Noah....we just required him to score so much in a sloth like, newly developed scheme by Thibbs....it was a process to get everyone on the same page, and most time when things disnt work we just gave the ball to Rose and let him do his thing.

Yeah Rose had to improvise a whole lot. Thibes didn't get into extensive offensive practices until mid January that year. That was a lot to put on Rose but he had confidence in him and Rose was willing.



There aren't many guards that are going to bully Rose....and he wins most matchups....well, he did in his MVP year.
Trust me, this board would have lit up if any pg had gotten the best of Rose and it only happened twice, and then it was too dubious to say he was even really outplayed. But the Rose vs Rondo, Rose vs Deron Williams, Rose vs Paul threads were loaded against Rose. By the end of the year they were obsolete.

Billups who bullied Deron Williams the year before never even attempted to do so with Rose. It was then I realized how strong Rose was. Even Wade who bullies SG didn't try it. And Rose wasn't into the weight room.

[knicksman]

This.

Rose was very good, and yes CONTEXT made him MVP. But he deserved that award in 2011.

LeBron / Wade were out the running because their numbers were identical and the media was infuriated that they cowardly joined forces, and Dwight didn't impact late in games like Rose, nor did he have the record to compete.

ShaqAttack3234 as much as I love him, is a known little guy hater, and big man groupie. Rose was ultimately more impactful than Howard, and it really isn't even close.

are you really sure about this? Chicago still finished first with rose missing most of the games last season

[ShaqAttack3234]

The last part is categorically false.

When the Bulls were clicking and Rose was on he was a perfect floor general. Setting up Korver for threes, drive and dishes with Deng, drop off passes to Boozer and Noah....we just required him to score so much in a sloth like, newly developed scheme by Thibbs....it was a process to get everyone on the same page, and most time when things disnt work we just gave the ball to Rose and let him do his thing.

I never said he wasn't a good playmaker. He wouldn't have been the best point guard that year, or arguably the best without being good. But his passing and decision making were not on the level of Nash, Paul, Kidd, Rondo or even Lebron.



And this whole thread would be completely MOOT. I'd say Dirk's 2007 MVP is the worst MVP I've ever seen, especially given context. At least Rose led his team to the conference finals.

Malone 1997
Nash 2005
Nash 2006
Dirk 2007

Worst MVP selections I've EVER seen. Barkley in '93 is too, but it was a clear case of voter fatigue for Jordan.

I can agree with Malone in '97 deserving a spot on the list, and probably Nash in '06.

Dirk's MVP looks bad considering the terrible playoff series, but based on the regular season, I think he was a good choice. I think Nash would have been as well. Kobe is kind of tough that year. He's my choice for 2006, but now their record was barely above .500. Not his fault due to the injuries, but that's sort of where I draw the line as far as wins.

What's your problem with Nash's MVP in '05? I mean who did it really come down to, him and Shaq? And I already know you didn't think Shaq was deserving anymore by 2005. So who would you choose then?

I can't agree with Barkley being on that list. He played great, and the Suns maintained that record with KJ out a long time. My pick was Hakeem and the best player overall was still Jordan, though.


Name me the other players on that team that were really creative that year? Who was creating their own shot? Who didn't get a boost from Derrick's penetrating? How come teams weren't penetrating? When they did well against three point shooting was it all Bogans? How come teams couldn't run on Chitown? Who maintained a better tempo for their team to thrive in better than Rose/Bogans? What point guard lead all guards (Kobe and Wade too) in points, rebounds and assist? What point guard dominated the elite at his position? Guess who was third in blocks? Who was the games best penetrator in the game? Who was breaking down more defenses? Who was more clutch? What player on a contender had more offensive weight on them than Rose? Sounds like a pretty good 48 minutes to me.

I never said Rose's teammates didn't benefit from him. Although both Deng and Boozer were capable scorers, and better than anyone Dwight had. Though I never claimed Rose had great offensive players around him. It's debatable how important scoring was to their success considering they often seemed better with Taj Gibson than they did with Boozer, though.

I never said Rose wasn't a great player that year. I said that I don't think his all around game or impact was equal to Dwight or Lebron.


Teams need leadership to adjust to new situations.

Yes, but it usually doesn't just come from one guy. in Chicago's case, it was the coach and their star, but also some veterans who and they had quite a few gritty defensive players who were known for playing hard.


LOL, who was the other point guard? You missed his biggest attribute. When any player gets from the perimeter to the rim its a defensive breakdown - the whole team has to go over how they are going to prevent him from getting to the rim. They go back to the huddle and discuss what went wrong in the team defense practice.

I did mention Rose's ability to penetrate and breakdown a defense. The other point guard I thought was debatable with Rose was Chris Paul. Paul didn't have a great season by his standards, but I still think you can make the case.


Doubling Howard is easy, you know who is supposed to do it. He was turnover prone, didn't doubles handle well, and wasn't likely to pass. He could only score from limited range. He wasn't remotely close to being Rose offensively in the first quarter and the distance increased as the quarter's progressed. Mentally he's not as sharp and his decision making was obviously weaker. In the end Dwight was limited in how much damage he could do and did do.

Actually, when Orlando was in trouble was when they didn't double Howard, and that's because none of his teammates created for themselves consistently. Hedo had the ability, but was passive, inconsistent and content to be a role player by that point. Nelson had the ability as well, but was also very inconsistent and not a good decision maker. I do agree that his passing wasn't very good. That's one of the things he actually did better in 2012, though his overall level of play dropped.

I don't agree that the gap between their offense was massive. Dwight gave you a guy who was scoring in the post consistently, an automatic finisher, as good as any big man at running the floor, as well as a guy who gave you 23/14, 59% for the season and 27/15, 63% over January and February.


Overall his play was superb but the better defensive teams looked forward to a win when they played Orlando and pondered a way to stop Rose and then lost, without exception in the final four months. That's a too big of difference.

I don't know what defensive teams were looking forward to. I do know that the strategy to beat them became clear, which was not to double Howard as much. Some teams of course still doubled him. But it became clear that more likely than not, Dwight's teammates weren't going to do a lot of damage without open looks.

[Scholar]

:oldlol: @ anyone arguing Nash didn't deserve those MVPs. The guy took a relatively poor performing team and made it into contenders practically by his lonesome. That deserves merit.