Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

[Nash]

With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.

[kurple]

agreed. would be a huuge blow

[DMV2]

It would shut all the discussion of Kobe and Jordan up. And probably him being the best Laker of All-Time as well, that's still Magic and we're only going by on-court and not off-the-court contributions.

He'll take a dip in people's All-Time ranking too when younger superstars catches up on him; i.e. LeBron, who's already at his footsteps.

It doesn't take away what he accomplished in his career though. It's one of the more controversial legacies in NBA history so he'll be talked about for decades.

[HardwoodLegend]

Well, the stans would fall back on the "it's his 17th year" excuse and would claim a prime Kobe would push this team into the postseason by anchoring a stronger team defense.

Even though his stats are prime-esque, :lol

[noob cake]

Hurts his legacy. Probably not much since Kobe was never a first fiddle in the first place. Kobe's legacy has been built largely through longevity alone. It doesn't take away from his achievement of performing at this level in his 17th season.

He has been carried to multiple championships on the backs of his bigs. Now that his front line this year is not as great as the Shaq/Prime Gasol years, Lakers success is suffering.

Just looking at Kobe's shooting stats after his bigs went down

Kobe has been constantly ranked as a top 4-10 player, I personally think he is around top 15-20.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think his legacy is pretty safe with the 5 rings and more than a dozen years of great play. This extremely disappointing season doesn't erase those years and rings. Besides, I don't see why people would look at Kobe given how he's played and place the blame on him given all of the other obvious factors.

[DMV2]

I think his legacy is pretty safe with the 5 rings and more than a dozen years of great play. This extremely disappointing season doesn't erase those years and rings. Besides, I don't see why people would look at Kobe given how he's played and place the blame on him given all of the other obvious factors.
He takes all the credit when he wins, why not take the blame when he loses?

[AirFederer]

Hurts his legacy. Probably not much since Kobe was never a first fiddle in the first place. Kobe's legacy has been built largely through longevity alone. It doesn't take away from his achievement of performing at this level in his 17th season.

He has been carried to multiple championships on the backs of his bigs. Now that his front line this year is not as great as the Shaq/Prime Gasol years, Lakers success is suffering.

Just looking at Kobe's shooting stats after his bigs went down

Kobe has been constantly ranked as a top 4-10 player, I personally think he is around top 15-20.

This.

[noob cake]

This.

Other things can be argued but Kobe is never at and will never be at Jordan's level.

It can be argued that LeBron's legacy is already greater than that of Kobe's.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He takes all the credit when he wins, why not take the blame when he loses?

Why not apply credit and blame appropriately based on how he plays? Howard has been injured, used poorly, and has played below even his current potential at both ends. Gasol has also been used poorly, injured, and just terrible. Those were 2 guys who the Lakers really need. And D'Antoni is just a terrible coach. Kobe has been easily their best player and has played better than anyone could have expected. He also adjusted his game when Nash returned. The only part of his game that hasn't been very good is his defense, and that's been the case for several years now. Plus, anyone who thinks he's making the Laker defense worse by himself is kidding themselves.

Besides, he doesn't get all the credit. Most give Shaq more credit for the 3peat, and even when Kobe was the clear cut best player and putting up amazing playoff runs, some still discredit him because of his frontcourt.

[noob cake]

Why not apply credit and blame appropriately based on how he plays? Howard has been injured, used poorly, and has played below even his current potential at both ends. Gasol has also been used poorly, injured, and just terrible. Those were 2 guys who the Lakers really need. And D'Antoni is just a terrible coach. Kobe has been easily their best player and has played better than anyone could have expected. He also adjusted his game when Nash returned. The only part of his game that hasn't been very good is his defense, and that's been the case for several years now. Plus, anyone who thinks he's making the Laker defense worse by himself is kidding themselves.

Wait so Kobe's poor defense doesn't really make Lakers defense worse?

Wait so Lakers record is due to Gasol/Howard? Because Kobe is putting up solid stats?

[kurple]

kobe got all he could ask for with this team. he's just as much at fault as anyone. maybe the most of them all beacuse he's the leader and go to scorer

a top10 alltime player shouldnt miss the playoffs in their prime

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wait so Kobe's poor defense doesn't make Lakers defense?

Wait so Lakers record is due to Gasol/Howard? Because Kobe is putting up solid stats?

I never said that Kobe playing better defense wouldn't help. I just said that he's not the main reason. The primary reason is D'Antoni and a team full of old, slower players who as a whole aren't playing up to their potential defensively, Kobe included, but he's one of many. They'd still suck defensively with any other shooting guard. Hell, they sucked defensively even with a top shot blocker and rebounder. And if Kobe did play harder defensively, it'd likely take away from his offense. It's not just Kobe who does this. Most superstar offensive players do. Kobe has had to put up 30/5/5 and he's played 39 mpg at 34 years old in his 17th season. Expecting him to do much more would be crazy.

And yes, Howard and especially Gasol have performed far below what was expected. Kobe has exceeded expectations.

[DMV2]

Why not apply credit and blame appropriately based on how he plays? Howard has been injured, used poorly, and has played below even his current potential at both ends. Gasol has also been used poorly, injured, and just terrible. Those were 2 guys who the Lakers really need. And D'Antoni is just a terrible coach. Kobe has been easily their best player and has played better than anyone could have expected. He also adjusted his game when Nash returned. The only part of his game that hasn't been very good is his defense, and that's been the case for several years now. Plus, anyone who thinks he's making the Laker defense worse by himself is kidding themselves.

Besides, he doesn't get all the credit. Most give Shaq more credit for the 3peat, and even when Kobe was the clear cut best player and putting up amazing playoff runs, some still discredit him because of his frontcourt.
Only on this site though that he gets discredited. In the real world and in the media, Kobe's gotten enough credit, even more so than Gasol and at times Shaq(prob because he's not a winf player and people were looking for the new Jordan) too. Kobe was on basketball magazines with captions of "Best basketball player in the world, and he's only 22."

He has definitely gotten enough credit through out his career, which benefited a lot from his big's. His poor performances doesn't get enough criticism in my opinion. I never saw any media personnel blame him for that 2004 Finals lost. He deserves the blame as much as the Pistons deserving credit for that series win.

[kurple]

I never said that Kobe playing better defense wouldn't help. I just said that he's not the main reason. The primary reason is D'Antoni and a team full of old, slower players who as a whole aren't playing up to their potential defensively.
they were horrible with Mike Brown as well.

and the celtics and mavs managed to play great defense with old players. lame exuce

[noob cake]

I never said that Kobe playing better defense wouldn't help. I just said that he's not the main reason. The primary reason is D'Antoni and a team full of old, slower players who as a whole aren't playing up to their potential defensively, Kobe included, but he's one of many. They'd still suck defensively with any other shooting guard. Hell, they sucked defensively even with a top shot blocker and rebounder. And if Kobe did play harder defensively, it'd likely take away from his offense. It's not just Kobe who does this. Most superstar offensive players do. Kobe has had to put up 30/5/5 and he's played 39 mpg at 34 years old in his 17th season. Expecting him to do much more would be crazy.

And yes, Howard and especially Gasol have performed far below what was expected. Kobe has exceeded expectations.

So Lakers are not performing because they are old, and Kobe can't be blamed because he is also old and putting up good stats? Because he is putting up good stats, he is doing no wrong?

The problem with the premise of your argument is that neither Howard nor Gasol are top 10 greatest of all time. They don't have an extensive of history being carried to multiple championships. Kobe does; just check out the number of FMVP awards compared to the number of championships he has "won." You won't find another player in the TOP 10 GOAT debate with a worse ratio.

[MMM]

On Kobe's defense I found this to be interesting (http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season). However, I haven't seen many Laker games this year. If the post above is an accurate description of Kobe lack of effort defensively than I have to agree that he is a huge liability to his defense.

[ihoopallday]

It'll be a little stain on his legacy. He'll still be top 10 in my opinion.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Only on this site though that he gets discredited. In the real world and in the media, Kobe's gotten enough credit, even more so than Gasol and at times Shaq(prob because he's not a winf player and people were looking for the new Jordan) too. Kobe was on basketball magazines with captions of "Best basketball player in the world, and he's only 22."

He has definitely gotten enough credit through out his career, which benefited a lot from his big's. His poor performances doesn't get enough criticism in my opinion. I never saw any media personnel blame him for that 2004 Finals lost. He deserves the blame as much as the Pistons deserving credit for that series win.

Kobe deserves more credit than Gasol because he was the Lakers best player. Gasol got a lot of credit for his contributions, although he hasn't been given a pass since, and I'd say he has become underappreciated. Not that there's much to appreciate about his play this year, though.

Kobe seldom got more credit than Shaq during those years. From some, maybe, but the majority recognized that Shaq was the man on the Lakers, especially opposing coaches, GMs, players as well as Phil himself. This is one of the reasons Kobe wanted to win without Shaq.

He got a ton of blame for the '04 finals, Kobe was heavily criticized throughout '04 and '05. The reason most don't bring it up now is because Kobe won 2 more rings. Everyone has failures, but most people recognize the successes more, and rightfully so. You can't win every year, or play well every series. How many people bring up Magic shooting 38% and airballing the potential series-winning shot on a play designed for Kareem vs the Rockets in '81? Or the "Tragic Johnson" series? They look at the 5 rings because only a few players could do that. How many people bring up Bird's play vs Milwaukee in '83 or the series he shot 35% in vs Detroit in '88?


they were horrible with Mike Brown as well.

and the celtics and mavs managed to play great defense with old players. lame exuce

Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.


So Lakers are not performing because they are old, and Kobe can't be blamed because he is also old and putting up good stats? Because he is putting up good stats, he is doing no wrong?

The problem with the premise of your argument is that neither Howard nor Gasol are top 10 greatest of all time. They don't have an extensive of history being carried to multiple championships. Kobe does; just check out the number of FMVP awards compared to the number of championships he has "won." You won't find another player in the TOP 10 GOAT debate with a worse ratio.

You have real reading comprehension problems, or you're trying to twist my words because you don't have a good counter. I never said Kobe is doing no wrong, but I also said he's played better than anyone expected. I brought up his age because they're asking him to play so many minutes and do so much offensively that there's no way he could play up to his potential defensively at the same time. Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring. He still played better than Kobe is defensively, but he was a better defender to begin with and a better player. How many players can drop 30+, play about 40 mpg, set up teammates and still have the energy to play elite defense? Prime Jordan, and if you're expecting prime Jordan, particularly from a 34 year old Kobe, you've set the bar unreasonably high.

Kobe could play better than he is defensively, but not enough to make a huge difference, and certainly not without taking away from his offense, which they've depended so heavily on. The Lakers defensive problems go far beyond Kobe. His defense could be viewed as part of the problem, but not the main problem. You have to look at D'Antoni who has always been known as a terrible defensive coach, and you also have to look at the system he's stubbornly insisted on that just doesn't fit their team.

Kobe hasn't been "carried" to a single ring either. That just shows your bias. Finals MVP or not, he was the second best player in both the 2001 and 2002 playoffs. His 2001 playoff run is something most players can only dream of doing. By the way, he got back to back finals MVPs. Not everyone does that you know.

[JellyBean]

If the Lakers don't make the playoffs this season, Kobe's legacy is still safe. He is still one of the top ten players of all-time. Still one of the greatest Lakers of all-time. Still a top competitor. His legacy is safe.

[noob cake]

Kobe deserves more credit than Gasol because he was the Lakers best player. Gasol got a lot of credit for his contributions, although he hasn't been given a pass since, and I'd say he has become underappreciated. Not that there's much to appreciate about his play this year, though.

Kobe seldom got more credit than Shaq during those years. From some, maybe, but the majority recognized that Shaq was the man on the Lakers, especially opposing coaches, GMs, players as well as Phil himself. This is one of the reasons Kobe wanted to win without Shaq.

He got a ton of blame for the '04 finals, Kobe was heavily criticized throughout '04 and '05. The reason most don't bring it up now is because Kobe won 2 more rings. Everyone has failures, but most people recognize the successes more, and rightfully so. You can't win every year, or play well every series. How many people bring up Magic shooting 38% and airballing the potential series-winning shot on a play designed for Kareem vs the Rockets in '81? Or the "Tragic Johnson" series? They look at the 5 rings because only a few players could do that. How many people bring up Bird's play vs Milwaukee in '83 or the series he shot 35% in vs Detroit in '88?



Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.



You have real reading comprehension problems, or you're trying to twist my words because you don't have a good counter. I never said Kobe is doing no wrong, but I also said he's played better than anyone expected. I brought up his age because they're asking him to play so many minutes and do so much offensively that there's no way he could play up to his potential defensively at the same time. Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring. He still played better than Kobe is defensively, but he was a better defender to begin with and a better player. How many players can drop 30+, play about 40 mpg, set up teammates and still have the energy to play elite defense? Prime Jordan, and if you're expecting prime Jordan, particularly from a 34 year old Kobe, you've set the bar unreasonably high.

Kobe could play better than he is defensively, but not enough to make a huge difference, and certainly not without taking away from his offense, which they've depended so heavily on. The Lakers defensive problems go far beyond Kobe. His defense could be viewed as part of the problem, but not the main problem. You have to look at D'Antoni who has always been known as a terrible defensive coach, and you also have to look at the system he's stubbornly insisted on that just doesn't fit their team.

Kobe hasn't been "carried" to a single ring either. That just shows your bias. Finals MVP or not, he was the second best player in both the 2001 and 2002 playoffs. His 2001 playoff run is something most players can only dream of doing. By the way, he got back to back finals MVPs. Not everyone does that you know.

Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.

[Heavincent]

Wouldn't hurt his legacy at all. He's playing for gravy at this point. He's already proven everything. Any reasonable person would agree.

This team isn't that good anyway. Pau is probably one of the worst starting PF's in the league at this point. lol at mentioning him like it's still the same Pau from 2010.

[andgar923]

Kobe has never and will never be a good leader, end of story.

There's more to being a leader than simply scoring and telling your teammates to put on "big boy pants".

He doesn't hold himself accountable, his teammates clearly don't respect him as much as he thinks or others perceive him to be.

Like some, Kobe's got carried to rings on the backs of bigs and refs. Great talent errr

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.

Read his post again. He's not attacking Jordan at all.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.

Funny how often I get called both a "Kobe stan" and a "Kobe hater." I knew you couldn't respond, and you proved me right. Oh yeah, and one more thing that proves your reading comprehension problems is when you said I "attacked" Jordan. Where in my post did I say anything resembling a slight towards Jordan? Please tell me, because I'll be fascinated to hear how you try to twist this.

[noob cake]

Funny how often I get called both a "Kobe stan" and a "Kobe hater." I knew you couldn't respond, and you proved me right. Oh yeah, and one more thing that proves your reading comprehension problems is when you said I "attacked" Jordan. Where in my post did I say anything resembling a slight towards Jordan? Please tell me, because I'll be fascinated to hear how you try to twist this.


Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring.

So Jordan relied on his team, but poor Kobe doesn't have a Pippen? Its surpirsing how quickly you forget what you wrote yourself just minutes earlier.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So Jordan relied on his team, but poor Kobe doesn't have a Pippen? Its surpirsing how quickly you forget what you wrote yourself just minutes earlier.

That was not the point at all. In my post, I state that Jordan was better than Kobe, which I've been on record saying countless times and have never come close to deviating from that. The point was that EVEN Jordan as he got older couldn't score 30 and do everything he use to the same way. It was to my point about age. You have to conserve yourself at times, hell, even most young players who are asked to carry the load Kobe is do that. Prime Jordan was the one exception. This is just a fact. He was still a much better defender than Kobe, but he had to make adjustments. Kobe is carrying such a ridiculous load average 30, playing 40 minutes that I'd be shocked if he was playing well defensively. I do expect better defense from Kobe, but the Lakers are going to still be terrible defensively until everyone starts playing better and most likely until D'Antoni is fired, or Howard returns to pre-injury form. Even with the latter, I think this team would be average at best defensively. In reality, they need a real coach.

The way you twist things is so transparent I don't know how you thought you could ever fool anyone.

[tpols]

Not at all..

5 rings with productions of..

29/7/6 all first team defense
26/6/5 all first team defense
30/5/5 all first team defense
29/6/6 all first team defense
21/5/4 all second team defense

Will likely finish as a top 3 scorer all time..
And leading playoff scorer all time

His accolades already speak for themselves. A season where two coaches are fired, which I believe is the first time it's happened, because of incredible incompetence, and a bunch of injuries to Howard, Nash, and pau during the Lakers hardest schedule stretch aren't going to determine his legacy when he's had success in the other 98 percent of his career.

[tpols]

..
No one respects your opinion on anything basketball.

[Artillery]

Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.

Kobe was the one that strongly suggested implementing the Princeton offense. But, yeah, keep blaming Brown for that one.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe was the one that strongly suggested implementing the Princeton offense. But, yeah, keep blaming Brown for that one.

Brown is the coach, he has to decide what offense they run. That was one of the biggest problems with Brown, he could not coach Kobe. He deferred to superstars whether it was Lebron or Kobe. Of course I'm going to blame Brown.

[Artillery]

Brown is the coach, he has to decide what offense they run. That was one of the biggest problems with Brown, he could not coach Kobe. He deferred to superstars whether it was Lebron or Kobe. Of course I'm going to blame Brown.

By that logic, Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Frank Hamblen, Rudy Tomjanovich couldn't coach Kobe either. No one besides PJax(the GOAT). You're naive if you think Brown had any kind of pull on the Lakers. If Kobe suggests something, the Lakers sure as hell are going to do it regardless of who's coaching.

[tpols]

By that logic, Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Frank Hamblen, Rudy Tomjanovich couldn't coach Kobe either. No one besides PJax(the GOAT). You're naive if you think Brown had any kind of pull on the Lakers. If Kobe suggests something, the Lakers sure as hell are going to do it regardless of who's coaching.
That's the point with Mike Brown.. He defers to his superstars instead of actually doing his job and coming up with his own ideas.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

His legacy won't really be diminished, he has played well, and the lakers problems stem from other causes. His defense has been bad yes, but to pin the defensive disasters the lakers have had on just kobe is retarded. He hasn't been good, but nor has most of the team and not to mention the coaching.

To me he has always been in the 8-10 range all time so I don't think that'll change much at all.

[longtime lurker]

Legacy? Let's see still top 6 of all time :rockon: Your alltime rankings can't go down you idiots they can only be surpassed. Right now Duncan and Lebron can surpass him. The Lakers problems don't stem from Kobe alone why do you think every single analyst and reporter are saying that Dwight and Gasol need to improve their play, they all must be Kobe stans :rolleyes:

[Lebron23]

He's still a top 10 player of all time. LBJ might surpass him if he wins his 2nd finals MVP. LBJ needs to put up better numbers in the Finals.

[ShaqAttack3234]

By that logic, Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Frank Hamblen, Rudy Tomjanovich couldn't coach Kobe either. No one besides PJax(the GOAT). You're naive if you think Brown had any kind of pull on the Lakers. If Kobe suggests something, the Lakers sure as hell are going to do it regardless of who's coaching.

Kobe was a teenager when Del Harris was there, and Del had problems with the entire team. Kurt was a midseason replacement in a lockout year and failed during his one other head coaching stint in Minnesota. He was never going to be their longterm solution. Frank Hamblen was barely a head coach as well. He wasn't meant to be anything more than an interim, never coached an entire season and during his one other stint as a head coach, h went 23-42 with the '92 Bucks.

Rudy T had no problem coaching Kobe. They were 18-15 before Kobe's injury and 24-19 total with Rudy T. He stepped down for health reasons that were well documented.

Hilarious that you threw interim coaches in there.


His legacy won't really be diminished, he has played well, and the lakers problems stem from other causes. His defense has been bad yes, but to pin the defensive disasters the lakers have had on just kobe is retarded. He hasn't been good, but nor has most of the team and not to mention the coaching.


That's the point with Mike Brown.. He defers to his superstars instead of actually doing his job and coming up with his own ideas.

Great posts, I agree 100%

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Despite D'Anotoni's laughable coaching, I still cant fathom LAL missing the postseason w/ this roster. Holy shit. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Despite D'Anotoni's laughable coaching, I still cant fathom LAL missing the postseason w/ this roster. Holy shit. :oldlol:

Yep, it is amazing. It's like Murphy's Law, didn't they know not to **** with Jack Murphy?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2147/5734505789_4551a67779_o.png

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yep, it is amazing. It's like Murphy's Law, didn't they know not to **** with Jack Murphy?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2147/5734505789_4551a67779_o.png

The only law I know is "Jack Murphy's law." It's very simple. Don't **** with Jack Murphy. You remember that.

:cheers:

[ShaqAttack3234]

The only law I know is "Jack Murphy's law." It's very simple. Don't **** with Jack Murphy. You remember that.

:cheers:

:cheers: Wasn't sure anyone would get that reference. Didn't know how many here watch Charles Bronson's movies.

Then again, he even did a movie with Mike Dunleavy.

http://images3.cinema.de/imedia/5198/1765198,yp+T7PMY5lKvdiJRNP2232rRcIxVh8A_S7N9IsWuz4 QEwaEPZZrjpU+rJbihmueTTpJCTKIusJ0qmDEDRKo4WA==.jpg

[bond10]

You can debate all you want, 20 years from now people will only remember Kobe + 3 all stars not making playoffs.

[L.Kizzle]

It hurts Howard's way more than Kobe's. Doesn't hurt Kobe at all.

[jstern]

I think it will hurt how people view his leadership skills. And I agreed with what Van Gundy said, that despite how good he's playing, he should sacrifice a few shots to let Howard get going.

Another thing that hurts him is that it looks as if Kobe is more concern about breaking that all times points record. Perhaps he sees younger Lebron and Durant being ahead than he was when he was their age, and he wants to secure it.

[longtime lurker]

It hurts Howard's way more than Kobe's. Doesn't hurt Kobe at all.

This. The only difference from this the team last year is replacing Bynum with Dwight and an upgrade at the PG position. Who's really hurting the Lakers?

[Lebron23]

Yep, it is amazing. It's like Murphy's Law, didn't they know not to **** with Jack Murphy?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2147/5734505789_4551a67779_o.png


By the way they are planning a Magnificent Seven Remake. Tom Hardy as Bernardo O'Reilly (Charles Bronson's character in the movie) sounds cool.

[Remix]

the trolls are strong in this thread.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This. The only difference from this the team last year is replacing Bynum with Dwight and an upgrade at the PG position. Who's really hurting the Lakers?

I think it does hurt Dwight's legacy, but I don't think it's that simple. The Lakers wouldn't be any better with Bynum, imo, in fact, I could see them being even worse. Bynum would certainly be unhappy with shots in this system which would make it unlikely he'd play defense consistently. Plus, Bynum trying to run in D'Antoni's system doesn't sound good at all, and a D'Antoni defense that hasn't worked with Dwight sounds just laughable with Bynum's mobility. I truly believe that D'Antoni is the biggest reason they've underachieved so much.


By the way they are planning a Magnificent Seven Remake. Tom Hardy as Bernardo Reilly (Charles Bronson's character in the movie) sounds cool.

Really? I loved the original. I'm not a big fan of remakes, but I'll check it out if it comes out.

[Lebron23]

I think it does hurt Dwight's legacy, but I don't think it's that simple. The Lakers wouldn't be any better with Bynum, imo, in fact, I could see them being even worse. Bynum would certainly be unhappy with shots in this system which would make it unlikely he'd play defense consistently. Plus, Bynum trying to run in D'Antoni's system doesn't sound good at all, and a D'Antoni defense that hasn't worked with Dwight sounds just laughable with Bynum's mobility. I truly believe that D'Antoni is the biggest reason they've underachieved so much.



Really? I loved the original. I'm not a big fan of remakes, but I'll check it out if it comes out.

The Original Magnificent 7 is still the best western film of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0vqQjaXLOU I love the theme song of this movie.

Tom Cruise, Matt Damon, Morgan Freeman, and Kevin Costner will be in the remake. I love to see Javier Bardem as Calvera.

[longtime lurker]

I think it does hurt Dwight's legacy, but I don't think it's that simple. The Lakers wouldn't be any better with Bynum, imo, in fact, I could see them being even worse. Bynum would certainly be unhappy with shots in this system which would make it unlikely he'd play defense consistently. Plus, Bynum trying to run in D'Antoni's system doesn't sound good at all, and a D'Antoni defense that hasn't worked with Dwight sounds just laughable with Bynum's mobility. I truly believe that D'Antoni is the biggest reason they've underachieved so much.

Well I only said that half heartedly, but I think Dwight's whole attitude is killing the team. The thing with Bynum is that he'll give you way better offense than Dwight and he can hit his free throws. Bynum, Kobe and Pau already have chemisty together which is another reason the new look Lakers are struggling. They were a 3rd seed last year with a horrible bench and PG play I can't really see them being worse than 5th with a healthy Bynum which again might not lead to Brown getting fired. So the system issue might be irrelevant. Defensively they'd still need work but right now I don't see Dwight being a strong defensive presence outside of a few highlight real blocks.

[Hizack]

If Kobe retired after 2012 playoffs 2nd round exit, would his legacy be better than if he still plays in 2013 but with bad results?

If Kobe retired right after winning his 5th championship in 2010, would his legacy be even better?



The point is, no matter how bad Kobe performs now and in the future, he's legacy will only improve, but not deteriorate.

The number of MVP award he received will only increase, or remain.
The number of championships he won will only increase, or remain.
The number of FMVP awards he received will only increase, or remain.
The number of All-NBA teams selections he was in will only increase, or remain.
The number of All-star games selections he was in will only increase, or remain.
His career total minutes played, games played, ttotal points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks will only increase.
His per-game stats and percentage stats like FG% may drop, but the drop won't be sharp seeing how much time he has played and how little time he has left to play.

That is to say, As long as he still plays, his legacy will not be hurt, but improve rather.

[Heavincent]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Kobe has never and will never be a good leader, end of story.

There's more to being a leader than simply scoring and telling your teammates to put on "big boy pants".

He doesn't hold himself accountable, his teammates clearly don't respect him as much as he thinks or others perceive him to be.

Like some, Kobe's got carried to rings on the backs of bigs and refs. Great talent errr

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well I only said that half heartedly, but I think Dwight's whole attitude is killing the team. The thing with Bynum is that he'll give you way better offense than Dwight and he can hit his free throws. Bynum, Kobe and Pau already have chemisty together which is another reason the new look Lakers are struggling. They were a 3rd seed last year with a horrible bench and PG play I can't really see them being worse than 5th with a healthy Bynum which again might not lead to Brown getting fired. So the system issue might be irrelevant. Defensively they'd still need work but right now I don't see Dwight being a strong defensive presence outside of a few highlight real blocks.

Bynum and Pau never really had chemistry, imo. When the Lakers were winning titles, it was more Odom/Gasol as the big men. It was always either Bynum or Pau playing well, almost never at the same time. The one time they were really working well together was post all-star break in 2011 when Bynum was just a finisher offensively, and focusing on defense and rebounding. He was literally the 5th option. Even Phil said after last season that establishing Bynum offensively really takes Pau out of the game.

I think a 1-4 start could have been possible regardless. While I don't think Brown was the right coach, I think they fired him way too early, and should have just waited until they were either in a hole around new years, or if they had another second round exit, after the season. There still would have been the problem of the princeton offense. And Nash wasn't going to be much of an impact player in Brown's offense with either Bynum or Howard. There's too many players who need the ball, and all of their games don't fit together.

I'm not sure the defense would(or could) be much worse, but I don't see it being better with Bynum. As far as attitude, well, I don't think Bynum is much better in that department. Bynum may look better offensively than Howard has this year, but I don't think the results would be much different. Bynum really is one of the bigger black holes, and in a D'Antoni system, his post game wouldn't be a big factor. Even without D'Antoni, with Bynum posting up and Kobe getting his shots, I see Pau struggling and Nash being far less of a factor.

I don't think a 5th seed with Bynum in Dwight's place would be remotely possible.

I really think Pau is deadweight at this point. The only way I see the Lakers turning it around in the summer is to get rid of Pau and D'Antoni somehow

[Nash]

It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

It wouldn't hurt it at all. You guys are acting like Nash wasn't out for 20 games. Dwight wasn't hurt and playing like shit. While now hes not even playing.

[Heavincent]

It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.

Are you retarded?

Kobe's legacy is set in stone. He's a consensus top 10 player of all time. He's already proven everything. This season does absolutely nothing to change that. Sorry.

Also, LOL at comparing Hakeem to Dwight. Howard hasn't even been the best center this year. Not to mention it's an unbelievably weak era for centers. Hakeem was on a completely different level.

[red1]

somewhere between michael jordan and darius morris

[red1]

His legacy won't really be diminished, he has played well, and the lakers problems stem from other causes. His defense has been bad yes, but to pin the defensive disasters the lakers have had on just kobe is retarded. He hasn't been good, but nor has most of the team and not to mention the coaching.

To me he has always been in the 8-10 range all time so I don't think that'll change much at all.
...

[tpols]

It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.
It would be like Shaq joining lebron.. Or the Celtics after their finals run.. Or Barkley with drexler and hakeem.. Or Chris Webber joining the Pistons.. Or Jason Kidd joining the current Knicks.. Or Gary payton and Karl Malone joining prime kobe and Shaq.. Shall I go on?

[Mr. Jabbar]

It improves. A mike Dantoni team shouldn't have any wins at all, kobe has given the team a few. anything better than 0-82 adds to kobes legacy.

And the fact no other superstar had to deal with the 2 worst coaches of all time in the same year. Every Lakers win this year is a gem.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Are you retarded?

Kobe's legacy is set in stone. He's a consensus top 10 player of all time. He's already proven everything. This season does absolutely nothing to change that. Sorry.

Also, LOL at comparing Hakeem to Dwight. Howard hasn't even been the best center this year. Not to mention it's an unbelievably weak era for centers. Hakeem was on a completely different level.
well it does prove Kobe is a system player somewhat right?

[Jacks3]

34 yrs old. 17th season. 52,000+ minutes. Still putting up 30/5/5/2 on excellent efficiency. Playing 40+ minutes a night.

Won't hurt his legacy at all. If anything, the fact that he's still playing at this level will be a boost to his legacy.

[tpols]

well it does prove Kobe is a system player somewhat right?
Kobe's the opposite of a system player.. Haters will argue he breaks systems on purpose just to get his own.

[Rysio]

how would it hurt his legacy? he's the best player in the world playing on garbage ass team filled with big names who play like scrubs. not his fault.

[Heavincent]

well it does prove Kobe is a system player somewhat right?

Most all time greats, in all team sports, have benefited from certain systems. How much success did Jordan have without Phil Jackson? Then you have Duncan, who has played for one of the greatest coaches in sports for his entire career. Shaq won 4 rings with two legendary coaches. Different sport, but Tom Brady has definitely benefited from Belichick's system.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He's averaging 30-5-5 on 58TS/52EFG. 9 of there losses came when he scored 35+, and 4 losses came when he scored 40+. He's leading the league in scoring while in his 17th season. Nobody has ever led the league in scoring in their 17th season. No guard in his 17th+ season has ever averaged over 15 ppg, and Kobe is doubling that right now. Also, like Shaqattack mentioned, this doesn't take away his 5 rings.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Most all time greats, in all team sports, have benefited from certain systems. How much success did Jordan have without Phil Jackson? Then you have Duncan, who has played for one of the greatest coaches in sports for his entire career. Shaq won 4 rings with two legendary coaches. Different sport, but Tom Brady has definitely benefited from Belichick's system.
So pretty much it was all Phil Jackson?

[Bandito]

I think his legacy is pretty safe with the 5 rings and more than a dozen years of great play. This extremely disappointing season doesn't erase those years and rings. Besides, I don't see why people would look at Kobe given how he's played and place the blame on him given all of the other obvious factors.QFT...

Is like saying Lebron's legacy would be tarnished because he joined two other stars in their prime because he couldn't win by himself?

Nobody can win by themselves, everybody in the team of basketball need to play with other people, and if those people are not good enough you're not going to win.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Kobe's the opposite of a system player.. Haters will argue he breaks systems on purpose just to get his own.
Yeah but the triangle negates that because it's a system of predicting where Kobe's misses are going to bounce to and getting the rebound.

[Jacks3]

Wut.

[Heavincent]

Yeah but the triangle negates that because it's a system of predicting where Kobe's misses are going to bounce to and getting the rebound.

:roll:

[jstern]

It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.

I think this is a good way to look at it. How would Jordan be perceived now if that happened. Would his overall aura be less now in the average person's mind?


It wouldn't hurt it at all. You guys are acting like Nash wasn't out for 20 games. Dwight wasn't hurt and playing like shit. While now hes not even playing.

Injuries happen all the time, the difference here is that the Lakers still have a lot of talent to be a playoff team without Nash.


It would be like Shaq joining lebron.. Or the Celtics after their finals run.. Or Barkley with drexler and hakeem.. Or Chris Webber joining the Pistons.. Or Jason Kidd joining the current Knicks.. Or Gary payton and Karl Malone joining prime kobe and Shaq.. Shall I go on?

All those you mentioned made the playoff.


Kobe's the opposite of a system player.. Haters will argue he breaks systems on purpose just to get his own.

This is true.

[tpols]

Yeah but the triangle negates that because it's a system of predicting where Kobe's misses are going to bounce to and getting the rebound.
What?

I don't think you know what a system player is.. People can argue amare is a system player that can only thrive in a high octane PnR offense.. People can argue rip Hamilton was a system player that can only thrive on a team with a lot of off ball screening and passing aka equal opportunity offense. A system m player is someone whose game can only excel when they are given the ball in certain situations.

Kobe is the ultimate iso, freelance basketball player.. The exact opposite of what you're saying.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

What?

I don't think you know what a system player is.. People can argue amare is a system player that can only thrive in a high octane PnR offense.. People can argue rip Hamilton was a system player that can only thrive on a team with a lot of off ball screening and passing aka equal opportunity offense. A system m player is someone whose game can only excel when they are given the ball in certain situations.

Kobe is the ultimate iso, freelance basketball player.. The exact opposite of what you're saying.
I'm saying the only reason that Kobe is successful is because of Phil Jackson's coaching and reducing the negative effects of Kobe's chucking. Phil still had his frustrations but it is true that Phil would draw up plays to get offensive rebounds. They anticipated Kobe to miss and this was the recipe to championships. Now Kobe has to be a leader and his team just expects him to make shots. Therefor hes not gonna make the play off's.

[Jacks3]

They anticipated Kobe to miss and this was the recipe to championships. Now Kobe has to be a leader and his team just expects him to make shots. Therefor hes not gonna make the play off's.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[jlip]

There is absolutely nothing Kobe can do at this stage of his career to deduct from his all time ranking. He has reached that point where he can only add to his greatness.

[tpols]

I'm saying the only reason that Kobe is successful is because of Phil Jackson's coaching and reducing the negative effects of Kobe's chucking. Phil still had his frustrations but it is true that Phil would draw up plays to get offensive rebounds. They anticipated Kobe to miss and this was the recipe to championships. Now Kobe has to be a leader and his team just expects him to make shots. Therefor hes not gonna make the play off's.
This is absolute nonsense. :oldlol:

[Shepseskaf]

Kobe has been constantly ranked as a top 4-10 player, I personally think he is around top 15-20.
Top 4 - 10? I'm pretty sure only the 'stans have him in the top 5.

I have him in the 11 - 15 range.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

This is absolute nonsense. :oldlol:
is it? IS IT REALLY?!

[Nash]

Are you retarded?

Kobe's legacy is set in stone. He's a consensus top 10 player of all time. He's already proven everything. This season does absolutely nothing to change that. Sorry.

Also, LOL at comparing Hakeem to Dwight. Howard hasn't even been the best center this year. Not to mention it's an unbelievably weak era for centers. Hakeem was on a completely different level.
I'm not saying people will forget about what he has done, but he sure as hell doesn't want to be involved in missing the playoffs playing with these guys. As I said before, missing the playoffs with Nash, Gasol and Howard is a bigger feat than winning the championship.

And it doesn't really matter if Hakeem or Howard is better, that's not the point. Both Hakeem and Dwight were on top of the food chain, they were the best centers in their time.

[tpols]

I'm not saying people will forget about what he has done, but he sure as hell doesn't want to be involved in missing the playoffs playing with these guys. As I said before, missing the playoffs with Nash, Gasol and Howard is a bigger feat than winning the championship.

And it doesn't really matter if Hakeem or Howard is better, that's not the point. Both Hakeem and Dwight were on top of the food chain, they were the best centers in their time.
Dwight hasn't played well this season and has been hurt. Pau has been hurt. Nash has been hurt. All the star players you're referencing are hurt. Kobe is running with..

Nash on low minutes
Artest
Clark
Jamison
And so on

And the defense is being coordinated by the man who drive the Knicks into the ground and has a track record for being terrible on that side of the ball where LA is having the most trouble.

ShaqAttack3234 already said it.. Kobe's defense isn't making or breaking anything. I've watched the past few games and kobe actually was giving good effort on D, not forcing shots, passing the ball.. Playing the right way. But the team is just beat up right now and not very good.

The fact that you think it would cancel out a championship run is absurd. Everyone here has seen your agenda and thinks you're a moron anyway though.

[Money 23]

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.
Good point, but more like Shaq (young like Dwight, best center in game by 1997) coming to the Bulls, along with old, but still good Tim Hardaway.

With George Karl as head coach to replace Phil Jackson.

MJ / Shaq / Pippen / Tim Hardaway and not making the playoffs. Having a horrific record, period. That's quite a negative accomplishment.

[Just2McFly]

This + what happened in 04 and 07 would be three huge black marks on his legacy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This + what happened in 04 and 07 would be three huge black marks on his legacy.

'07 or '06? He quit in game 7 vs the 2006 the Suns.

[Jacks3]

As I said before, missing the playoffs with Nash, Gasol and Howard is a bigger feat than winning the championship.

.
LOL.

[Kews1]

its a bit embarrassing isnt it

[Nash]

LOL.
It is. Every time Kobe won the championships, the ones with Shaq and Gasol they were always one of the few favorites, and many of those they were the #1 favorite. But missing the playoffs with a team like that is harder. Do you understand how HARD it is for a good team, especially a team with 4 stars to miss the fecking playoffs? Not win or even advance through the 1st round, but actually miss the whole damn thing? When Kobe won his rings, his team was one of the teams we expected to win, but never in our wildest dreams did we ever expect a team with Kobe, Nash, Howard and Gasol to miss the whole damn playoffs.

[SCdac]

It would be an utter embarrassment no matter how you slice it. Nash, Howard, Gasol are averaging their lowest PPG in years while Kobe being Kobe is preoccupied with leading the league in scoring. Even if Dwight was fully healthy I have a hard time seeing Kobe accepting a 1A/1B situation - he wants all the glory and it's painfully obvious.

[tpols]

It would be an utter embarrassment no matter how you slice it. Nash, Howard, Gasol are averaging their lowest PPG in years while Kobe being Kobe is preoccupied with leading the league in scoring. Even if Dwight was fully healthy I have a hard time seeing Kobe accepting a 1A/1B situation - he wants all the glory and it's painfully obvious.
Howards also averaging his lowest FT percentage and rebounds per game(over the past few years) .. His defense has also been noticeably less impactful. He's no longer an elite player in the game.. Really all that needs to be brought up.

[Jacks3]

Nash is scoring 1 less PPG than he did with the Suns as the #1 option. Big deal.

Pau's scoring is down because his efficiency is historically bad (48% TS).

I also love you clowns think you know what's going in Bryant's head. "He wants all the glory". "He wants the scoring title". ****ing clowns.

:facepalm

[The Nets]

His legacy is pretty much set in stone already, the 04-05 Lakers season probably hurts his legacy more since he was still in prime atm.

[tmacattack33]

He's played pretty well this year overall. Two weeks ago he would have still been in the top 5 current player list. Right now he still may be at 5.

If anything about Hislegacy changes, it's that his leadership has been terrible. Not taking much blame himself and making comments about his teammates... As well as walking off the court early about 5 times already or maybe even more... It's hilarious to think that this guy is actually a veteran in this league the way he's been acting.

[Nevaeh]

Nash is scoring 1 less PPG than he did with the Suns as the #1 option. Big deal.

Pau's scoring is down because his efficiency is historically bad (48% TS).

I also love you clowns think you know what's going in Bryant's head. "He wants all the glory". "He wants the scoring title". ****ing clowns.

:facepalm

Good point. He obviously doesn't want the "glory, otherwise the Lakers would be winning.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

[upside24]

It will definitely hurt it.

There are a bunch of reasons why the Lakers have been so terrible this year. Howard and Nash's injuries, poor coaching especially on defense, chemistry issues.

Kobe is part of the reason. Sure, 30-5-5 on 48% looks good on paper but his defense has been terrible, along with the rest of the team.

Maybe if he took fewer shots and allowed other guys to feel like they are important to the team the record would be different right now. I don't know for sure if that would have resulted in a better record, since defense is what the Lakers lack, but at least the chemistry issues could have been better.

[Magic bird]

Well, the stans would fall back on the "it's his 17th year" excuse and would claim a prime Kobe would push this team into the postseason by anchoring a stronger team defense.

Even though his stats are prime-esque, :lol
This

[Jacks3]

Good point. He obviously doesn't want the "glory, otherwise the Lakers would be winning.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif
5 rings.

:oldlol:

[dbk123]

5 rings.

:oldlol:
5 rings and he'll only be in the top 20 after he misses the playoffs this season. lmao :roll: :roll:

[Artillery]

ShaqAttack3234 already said it.. Kobe's defense isn't making or breaking anything. I've watched the past few games and kobe actually was giving good effort on D, not forcing shots, passing the ball.. Playing the right way. But the team is just beat up right now and not very good.

The fact that you think it would cancel out a championship run is absurd. Everyone here has seen your agenda and thinks you're a moron anyway though.

Then you're clearly not watching the games:

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season

[Artillery]

The Original Magnificent 7 is still the best western film of all time.

Nah.

[tpols]

Then you're clearly not watching the games:

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season
This highlighted three plays in one game. :oldlol:

Anyone can take small snipits and try to make broad generalizations about them. Kobe last night guarded Westbrook and was actually giving good effort on defense.. Ever since this losing streak started he's been giving way more effort than he did to start the season where he was doing nothing.

against the spurs who are a great of the ball cutting screening and passing team it takes a whole defense to stick with your man. Lots of switching helping hedging etc.. The Lakers have none of this.

You have a very obvious agenda against Kobe Bryant. I actually acknowledge his shitty defensive effort for most of the start of the season.. Recently though he's been far more active on that side of the ball.

[longtime lurker]

ISH after the 2011 Finals:

Lebron James has tarnished his legacy and there's no way he'll ever be in the top 5 all time!

ISH after the 2012 Fianls: OMG Lebron is the greatest ever! He's already better than Kobe and Bird have ever been and he'll end up being greater than Jordan

ISH where prisoners of the moment happen

[Deuce Bigalow]

5 rings and he'll only be in the top 20 after he misses the playoffs this season. lmao :roll: :roll:
The dude locked up top 10 spot in 2009.

[Just2McFly]

'07 or '06? He quit in game 7 vs the 2006 the Suns.
whenever that shit happened

:lol

[rmt]

Most all time greats, in all team sports, have benefited from certain systems. How much success did Jordan have without Phil Jackson? Then you have Duncan, who has played for one of the greatest coaches in sports for his entire career. Shaq won 4 rings with two legendary coaches. Different sport, but Tom Brady has definitely benefited from Belichick's system.

At the start of the year of Duncan's first championship, Popovich had an NBA win-loss record of 73-73 (hardly the record of a GOAT-type coach). Pop was very much a novice NBA coach unlike the coach Kobe and Shaq got who already had 6 NBA championships under his belt.

Most of you Kobe stans are spoiled - you expect instant gratification - big name team mates, big name coaches instead of doing it the old-fashioned way building from the draft, patience developing players and Kobe allowing these players to grow by passing them the ball.

Look at this Earl Clark - only through desperation and injuries is he getting his chance. And he's made the most of it. It makes for team chemistry when team mates know that you trust them to take the open shot instead of being hell-bent on scoring as many points as possible (sometimes when double- or triple-teamed) to break the all-time scoring record.

Like it or not, part of one's legacy is one's leadership. And in this area, Kobe is sadly lacking. What does it say about him when he is having one of his statistically best years but the record is 15-21? Where is the impact and should he not rally his team mates and lead them? It's ironic that Dwight has all this power in his hands. He basically holds the future of the franchise in his hands. Lakers either trade the best center in the league for spare parts (and not get back equal value) or take the chance that he'll re-sign.

Players are well aware of Kobe's ways from snitching to throwing team mates under the bus to his reluctance to pass the ball. It's no wonder so many of the free agents went to the Clippers and Heat - all the benefits of living in a big city and playing with willing passers in CP/Lebron.

So will DH stay in LA?

[Legends66NBA7]

With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.

With exception of Howard and Bryant, nobody else is playing like a "star". Even Howard's productions has slipped off, mostly due to that injury.

So no, I don't think his legacy will be effected. A legacy is all about perception and how an individual views you. All Bryant can do now is add to it. As other have mentioned, this might effect Howard more but he's also been injured.

[Ne 1]

With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.

Kobe's already a consensus top 10 player of all-time and he's already proven that he doesn't need a team of Howard/Nash/Gasol to win. He won his first three rings with Shaq and role players. The 3-peat Lakers were a two man team. He won two more rings and made three straight Finals appearances with essentially just Gasol/Odom. Also like others already said the team has been dealing with significant injuries all year long and Gasol and even Howard haven't played up to their standards so far. Well Pau actually hasn

[NumberSix]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Kobe's already a consensus top 10 player of all-time and he's already proven that he doesn't need a team of Howard/Nash/Gasol to win. He won his first three rings with Shaq and role players. The 3-peat Lakers were a two man team. He won two more rings and made three straight Finals appearances with essentially just Gasol/Odom. Also like others already said the team has been dealing with significant injuries all year long and Gasol and even Howard haven't played up to their standards so far. Well Pau actually hasn

[Ne 1]

No, Shaq won his first ring with himself and role players, Kobe being one of them.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/5B5S/not-sure-if-trolling/image.png

[NumberSix]

http://memecrunch.com/meme/5B5S/not-sure-if-trolling/image.png
I take it you've never actually seen to 2000 finals.

[Calabis]

I believe his ability to show leadership is what is going to take a hit and people will re-evaluate him when guys like Bron and Durant get a couple more seasons. Kobe can not slide right now, but it will make it easier to put those guys ahead of him if they continue to be successful and if this Lakers season continues to be a disaster.

[Ne 1]

I take it you've never actually seen to 2000 finals.

I've watched all of the 2000 playoffs, including the entire Finals series. I take it you're the one who has never actually seen it.

[tpols]

I believe his ability to show leadership is what is going to take a hit and people will re-evaluate him when guys like Bron and Durant get a couple more seasons. Kobe can not slide right now, but it will make it easier to put those guys ahead of him if they continue to be successful and if this Lakers season continues to be a disaster.
Kobe has never been a player that leads with words and encouragement.. He leads with actions aka on court play like he did in 2008.. Once the play drops off the team loses faith.

[talkingconch]

Anything now is just gravy. Reality.

Nothing to prove. He doesn't need Howard, Gasol (twilight of career), Nash (twilight of career) to win a chip. He did it with Gasol and an injured bynum already.

Obviously to the haters this is not easy concept to grasp.

[Kurosawa0]

Well, we're talking about what would be probably the biggest disappointment in modern basketball history. It doesn't push him any lower for me, but it would probably cap Kobe in terms of climbing up my list. I have him at #8 behind Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Wilt and Duncan. If the Lakers miss the playoffs I can't see Kobe ever passing those guys for me.

Plus, it would make putting LeBron above him in a couple of years a lot easier. Say what you will about some of LeBron's playoff failures, but this Laker team not making the playoffs would be worse than any of them.

[TylerOO]

Oh man his legacy is gonna take a huge hit. If he doesnt make the finals it will still take a hit. But not making the playoffs? No one saw this coming

[Calabis]

Anything now is just gravy. Reality.

Nothing to prove. He doesn't need Howard, Gasol (twilight of career), Nash (twilight of career) to win a chip. He did it with Gasol and an injured bynum already.

Obviously to the haters this is not easy concept to grasp.

So u'r saying if he won his sixth this year it wouldn't have meant shit?

[Pointguard]

Kobe's accomplishment and achievements are there. His great play can't be undone. He in the top ten for me without question and won't fall out this year. The only blow he can take is that in a tight comparison - those who have him battling Bird, Oscar or Hakeem for a spot, is that his judgement, team play and leadership on the court isn't as good as the other top dozen. Those things usually get better as you age. Unfortunately these traits are getting exaggerated on the bad side for Kobe because of a great number of young players with these traits most noticeably Lebron, Wade, CP, Lillard, DWill, etc. With Durant and Rose showing noticeable improvements every year. I truly think only Lebron and Durant will threaten or achieve a spot in the top ten.

The number of years Kobe has had superior talent on his team will allso be used against him. Garnett, Duncan and Dirk all played well on older teams so people aren't going to be friendly when assessing Kobe in this matter either.

[tpols]

So u'r saying if he won his sixth this year it wouldn't have meant shit?
Anything now is just gravy.. Pretty straight forward.

Everyone now is just living in the moment. People don't take all the seasons a player came up short and subtract then from their winning seasons. Not how it works. If so hakeem would have a negative career ranking.. Lebron would still be getting hammered for 2011.. Etc. Kobe is in his 17th season playing very well and his best teammates are hurt and you want to act like the name on paper there means something. The Lakers aren't fielding a competitive team right now for a bunch of reasons not named kobe. No one will care five years down the road..No one remembered hakeem team blowing up with Barkley and drexler when they reunited in old age.. It just doesn't matter.

[Heilige]

Anything now is just gravy.. Pretty straight forward.

Everyone now is just living in the moment. People don't take all the seasons a player came up short and subtract then from their winning seasons. Not how it works. If so hakeem would have a negative career ranking.. Lebron would still be getting hammered for 2011.. Etc. Kobe is in his 17th season playing very well and his best teammates are hurt and you want to act like the name on paper there means something. The Lakers aren't fielding a competitive team right now for a bunch of reasons not named kobe. No one will care five years down the road..No one remembered hakeem team blowing up with Barkley and drexler when they reunited in old age.. It just doesn't matter.


Exactly :applause:


With regards to Kobe's leadership in 2008, do you think he exhibited the same type of leadership in 2009 and 2010? I wished he could have played liked he did in 2008 leadership wise for the majority of his career.

[Mr. Incredible]

Not a top 5 player IMO

[Indian guy]

His image takes a slight hit in the short-run. Irrelevant in the long run. Kobe has nothing to prove.

[gengiskhan]

His image takes a slight hit in the short-run. Irrelevant in the long run. Kobe has nothing to prove.

In long run, He is guaranteeing himself a spot behind LBJ in all-time GOATs list.

LBJ took bottom feeders to back-2-back 60+ wins seasons as CAV.

Kobe is just looking like one trick pony. take 24 FGA & get to 30 PPG ave.

Any decent scorer can do that. incl. Melo.

[Anaximandro1]

A historically stacked Lakers team don't make the playoffs while Kobe averages 30-5-5 in his 17th season?. It would be mind-blowing.

He should retire (just kidding).I mean, I could not think of a better way to finish off a illustrious yet controversial career.


-50% of people would say 30-5-5

-50% of people would say Kobe is a bad leader and a horrible team player who is useless unless his frontcourt demolishes the opposition.

:lol


However,I think they will make the playoffs :(

[Micku]

Not really.

Kobe is playing well and the problems in the team go beyond just Kobe problems. From coaching, to injuries, to players other than Kobe not playing good enough defense, to the front office of the Lakers itself.

However, it doesn't stop it from being a disappointment season so far. It almost reminds me of how the forums and everybody else were saying you need to stop with the comparison of MJ to Kobe after the 2011 swept.

If they do miss the playoffs, you may see little halt possibly for comparisons to other great players, even though it could be a little unfair to do so because he already proven his style could win and he did with less talent than this team. But this season will be one of the most disappointing seasons in sports history if that happens.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Is Kobe supposed to heal his teammates injuries and use the force to make their shots go in the basket? Is he supposed to rotate over and guard a center when Dwight leaves his man to contest a shot. Is he supposed to coach the team after the front office hired two coaches that were a bad fit for their aging roster. Nash is almost 40, Dwight is coming off a MAJOR back surgery and they have Pau shooting 3's.

If there is a gripe about Kobe this year it's that his help defense isn't great. Other than that he's playing some of the best basketball of his career. Basketball is a team sport. Superstars get too much credit and too much blame from fans. What exactly is Kobe supposed to do about this?

[secund2nun]

It will take a hit, but sadly the guy is outrageously overrated.

[The Iron Fist]

I thought Kobe was 4th best on this team after leader Dwight, offensive general Nash and best offensive big man in the game Pau?

At least that's what hater said in October.
Based on their logic, Kobe doesn't take a hit here as they just described him as a mere role player.

[20Four]

In long run, He is guaranteeing himself a spot behind LBJ in all-time GOATs list.

LBJ took bottom feeders to back-2-back 60+ wins seasons as CAV.

Kobe is just looking like one trick pony. take 24 FGA & get to 30 PPG ave.

Any decent scorer can do that. incl. Melo.


Lebron also had to join a super team just to win his championship when he did say he would stay with the CAVS to help them win a championship....what happened to that? He will never be ranked higher than KOBE because he had to join a super team just to win a ****ing championship....stupid asses

[Magic bird]

It will take a hit, but sadly the guy is outrageously overrated
:biggums:

[SpecialQue]

I love how it's all about Kobe, all the time.

[red1]

I will bump him up to number 6 all-time if he doesnt make the playoffs this year.

[chazzy]

Why should he get a legacy hit if he's playing better than expected? The "legacy hit" is based on the Lakers failing to meet their expectations, so why doesn't that standard apply to the individual's level of play?

[SpecialQue]

Why should he get a legacy hit if he's playing better than expected?

Because OP's a retard, that's why.

[gigantes]

With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.
wouldn't be the first time. summon your mind back around 5+ years and i'm sure you'll make the kobe connection. =)


hint hint: karl and gary!

[SpaceJammeR]

if this were to happen to mj, magic, and other all time greats im sure it wouldn't look good for their legacy.

[alleykat]

Won't look good at all....but it won't take away from the two rings he won as the leader of the lakers...still one of the best to do it....

But still this is kinda special - lotterysuperteam or big4lotteryteam....either way it is unprecedented....

[francesco totti]

i think he will be the most one given the benefit of the doubt.him and gasol.
both will probably be excused due to aging etc etc.

But the ones with no ring will get more of the press stick ..that is howard, d'antoni and nash

[guy]

Kind of. He's still a top 10 player to me, and before this season I had him at #10 but thinking that maybe he should be ranked ahead of Hakeem and Duncan due to his longevity, and I thought eventually he would be ranked ahead of Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Bird, and/or Wilt withat least his longevity, but I don't know anymore. Its always been a little questionable about how much credit he deserves for his titles, especially his first 3, and how much should be attributed to his coach and the talent around him. He obviously hasn't played bad, but his leadership has definitely been questionable this year with the way things are so the credit he deserves for his titles is probably more questionable now to me.

[shady6121]

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh600/Rodman2124/kobeclutch.gif

[LikeABosh]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbwjzvu5311qe7n09o1_500.gif
Kobe's legacy

[Ne 1]

Its always been a little questionable about how much credit he deserves for his titles, especially his first 3

He deserves as much credit as anyone for his '01, '02, '09 and '10 titles. I don't value his first title in '00 title as much as the others, but he was still a top 10 player in the league that year and the best shooting guard in the league. Shaq was easily the MVP for each series but Kobe stepped up in huge moments which is part of the reason I think he isn't as replaceable as people think, even though statistically he wasn't truly elite yet. Also not to mention 2000 was one of Kobe's prime defensive years. He was an AWESOME team defender at that point. He was always flying around for steals and his rotations were excellent and also was great at providing weak-side help and playing the passing lanes/angles. He had the game-saving block against the Blazers in Game 3 of the '00 WCF. His help defense was phenomenal back then, as was his man defense. His only weakness was inability to prevent bigger guards/forwards from posting him up which is why he bulked up in 2001. Guys like Bonzi Wells were the only ones who gave him problems. He was basically like the Lakers free safety.

[Jasper]

kobe Lakers studded roster = MJ 2nd stringer Wizards

Kobe legacy 1a