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RainierBeachPoet
02-04-2007, 01:11 AM
this is a very exclusive list of guys who had games of at least 20 points and 20 rebounds or assists:


# of
20/20s name


13 david robinson

18 patrick ewing

19 tim duncan

20 kevin willis

25 kevin garnett

26 charles barkley

32 hakeem

34 shaq



there are some impressive totals.

do you remember seeing any of these games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/twenty_twenty.html


how about some props to kevin willis. i knew he had some, but i wouldnt have guessed he had more than d.rob, patrick and td

i wish i knew the old school totals of wilt/russ/nate thurmond/wes unseld and more

SomeBunghole
02-04-2007, 01:14 AM
i wish i knew the old school totals of wilt/russ/nate thurmond/wes unseld and more
[/B][/SIZE]

There's really no point to that, Wilt would literally have hundreds. He averaged a 20/20 for something like 8 straight seasons.

Kblaze8855
02-04-2007, 01:14 AM
Kevin Willis averaged 15 rebounds a game one year. Most of his probably came from that season.

wally_world
02-04-2007, 01:16 AM
Dwight Howard will be joining them very soon... how many has he? at least 2 i know...

lakers-city
02-04-2007, 08:57 AM
this is a very exclusive list of guys who had games of at least 20 points and 20 rebounds:


# of
20/20s name


13 david robinson

18 patrick ewing

19 tim duncan

20 kevin willis

25 kevin garnett

26 charles barkley

32 hakeem

34 shaq



there are some impressive totals.

do you remember seeing any of these games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/twenty_twenty.html


how about some props to kevin willis. i knew he had some, but i wouldnt have guessed he had more than d.rob, patrick and td




wow, kevin willis above drob, pat and duncan.

i supose this doesn't include playoffs ? because im positive shaq has like 50 if you count the post season and finals.

i remember shaq's 61/23 against the clippers, i remember a few hakeem and drob ones, i also remember duncan with 34/25 against the lakers and the spurs still lost ! and 30/20/7 against the nets but if im not mistaken that was in the playoffs.

if you include 85 and 86 im sure hakeem has like 38 or 40.

Kblaze8855
02-04-2007, 09:23 AM
I checked and the season Willis averged 18/15.5 he had 12 20/20 gmes. One short of Drobs entire career. He had like a 5 game stretch where he averaged 21/23. Had 2-3 30+ rebound games that year.

junwin
02-04-2007, 10:12 AM
yeh why isnt D-Howard on that list

GOBB
02-04-2007, 10:15 AM
First thing that comes to my mind when Kevin Willis is mentioned. That lil short hook shot and him resembling an ex con in the state pen.

Brunch@Five
02-04-2007, 10:37 AM
1988-01-07 Fat Lever DEN CHI 31 16 20 ( 1)

that's one great TD. Wasn't Fat Lever just 6'3" or something?

RainierBeachPoet
02-04-2007, 02:11 PM
Dwight Howard will be joining them very soon... how many has he? at least 2 i know...

up until april 2006 he had two:

2005-11-15 Dwight Howard vs CHA 21 2

2006-04-15 Dwight Howard vs PHI 28 26


has he had any this season yet?

hoopslife
02-04-2007, 02:21 PM
He's had 4 this season -

3 20-20's in a 5 game stretch -

21 - 22 against Min
24 - 21 against Char
24 - 23 against Memp (The next game after the Charlotte 20-20)

and then 30-25 against GSW

shaqman
02-04-2007, 02:22 PM
this is a very exclusive list of guys who had games of at least 20 points and 20 rebounds:


# of
20/20s name


13 david robinson

18 patrick ewing

19 tim duncan

20 kevin willis

25 kevin garnett

26 charles barkley

32 hakeem

34 shaq



there are some impressive totals.

do you remember seeing any of these games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/twenty_twenty.html


how about some props to kevin willis. i knew he had some, but i wouldnt have guessed he had more than d.rob, patrick and td

i wish i knew the old school totals of wilt/russ/nate thurmond/wes unseld and more


wow, that would probably be an honor to be mentioned with those guys ^

fatlever
02-04-2007, 02:26 PM
I'm already placing bets that Greg Oden's over/under for his career 20/20 games will be 75. Any takers?

R.I.P.
02-04-2007, 02:29 PM
Camby never had one?

Sham
02-04-2007, 02:57 PM
Didn't Bosh have one this year?

DoubleTech
02-04-2007, 03:01 PM
Didn't Bosh have one this year?


i don't remember if it was this year, but he's definitely had one or two 20/20 games.

shaqman
02-04-2007, 03:09 PM
I'm already placing bets that Greg Oden's over/under for his career 20/20 games will be 75. Any takers?

hm... I don't know... my guess is he may get around 40... No, he will get 40, but almost 100% positive he will not get 75...!

shaqman
02-04-2007, 03:10 PM
oh yeah, Shaq's got the most!

SomeBunghole
02-04-2007, 03:47 PM
Sometimes I forget how good Stockton was, even though I idolized him as a kid.

Check out some of these lines:

20 PTS, 28 AST, 8 STL, 8-12 FG

26 PTS, 24 AST, 6 STL, 12-16 FG, 1(one!) TO

Locked_Up_Tonight
02-04-2007, 04:44 PM
I know it isn't a lot compared to others but.... Dirk has had two career 20-20 games. Both of them came around the trade deadline of 02. One against Boston and the other against the Kings.

If you want to include the playoffs... he's had another one as well against the Kings in 03.

RainierBeachPoet
02-04-2007, 05:56 PM
Camby never had one?


not counting this year, camby has had four total the latest being:

2005-11-20 vs MEM 21 21

R.I.P.
02-04-2007, 06:06 PM
Blount
Fizer
Gadzuric :oldlol: :oldlol:
Dunleavy :eek: :eek:

ClutchCityReturns
02-04-2007, 06:22 PM
Mutombo had 9. Is that next on the list?

Horde of Temujin
02-04-2007, 06:24 PM
matrix

Dick Biggly
02-04-2007, 07:03 PM
didn't Shaq have a 60/20 game against the Clippers on his birthday.

Kevin Willis was really born during the wrong era. For his time, he was overshadowed by the likes of David Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, and Shaq. If he was around now he'd be a top 5 center making $10 million a year. The guy was a workhorse.

allball
02-04-2007, 08:39 PM
Shawn Bradley once had a triple double with 22 points, 22 rebounds and 13 blocks. It was his fifthe triple double.

Wuxia
02-04-2007, 09:03 PM
Is this only regular season? because I'm almost positive Tim Duncan has at least 10x 20/20 games in the playoffs...

BigTicket
02-04-2007, 09:16 PM
Sometimes I forget how good Stockton was, even though I idolized him as a kid.

Check out some of these lines:

20 PTS, 28 AST, 8 STL, 8-12 FG

26 PTS, 24 AST, 6 STL, 12-16 FG, 1(one!) TO

:bowdown:

StroShow4
02-04-2007, 09:21 PM
has elton brand ever had one? maybe tyson chandler? he has gotten 20 rebounds a few times, but i doubt he got the 20 points.

kentatm
02-04-2007, 09:22 PM
I'm already placing bets that Greg Oden's over/under for his career 20/20 games will be 75. Any takers?


why make a bet with you? you wont follow through.

BigTicket
02-04-2007, 09:25 PM
has elton brand ever had one? maybe tyson chandler? he has gotten 20 rebounds a few times, but i doubt he got the 20 points.

Brand has 8, Chandler none.

StroShow4
02-04-2007, 09:29 PM
wow... danny fortson has 3

bence23
02-04-2007, 09:45 PM
marion

amare



add them to the list..**** kinda ****ty list is that

RainierBeachPoet
02-05-2007, 02:16 AM
has elton brand ever had one? maybe tyson chandler? he has gotten 20 rebounds a few times, but i doubt he got the 20 points.


eb has had eight! the last (not including this year) being

12-23-2005 vs CHA 38 pts 20 rebs


dont see tyson listed...

L.Kizzle
02-05-2007, 02:30 AM
How many does Otis Thorpe have, he should have a couple I supose. He had a 21/11 season and a 19/10 season.

kobedaman24
02-05-2007, 02:34 AM
wow, kevin willis above drob, pat and duncan.
I'm sure Duncan will have more 20/20 games in his career. He's still young

Y2Gezee
02-05-2007, 04:28 AM
Camby has a couple, including a 33 and 20 game last year vs Phx. Kenyon Martin has 1 from his NJ days vs Milwaukee. Hell, I think I remember Kwame Brown having one vs Sacremento while in Washington.

RainierBeachPoet
02-05-2007, 11:15 AM
How many does Otis Thorpe have, he should have a couple I supose. He had a 21/11 season and a 19/10 season.

looks like otis at least had seven

1994-03-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/HOU19940317.html) Otis Thorpe (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thorpot01.html) HOU (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html) GSW (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/1994.html) 21 21


was the last one

Fab17
02-05-2007, 12:28 PM
Scott Skiles had one of the best individual performances ever. (20pts 6 reb 30 ast)

I doubt his assists record will be broken anytime soon.

lakers-city
02-05-2007, 03:19 PM
I'm sure Duncan will have more 20/20 games in his career. He's still young

duncan can score 20 on any given night, but i don't see him with the energy to grab 20+ rebounds anymore, maybe he can do it once per season but no much more.

my point was however that willis is vastly underrated, no one talks about him and he was a beast on the boards.

RainierBeachPoet
02-05-2007, 03:35 PM
Scott Skiles had one of the best individual performances ever. (20pts 6 reb 30 ast)

I doubt his assists record will be broken anytime soon.

i remember when skiles broke that record; i was as amazed then as i i am now

even though it is hard to imagine anyone breaking it, it is not impossible

if nash and his teammates get in a zone, he could do it

Wuxia
02-05-2007, 04:15 PM
duncan can score 20 on any given night, but i don't see him with the energy to grab 20+ rebounds anymore, maybe he can do it once per season but no much more.

my point was however that willis is vastly underrated, no one talks about him and he was a beast on the boards.

Thats cause he doesn't give a sh!t for the regular season. Just wait till the PO when Duncan really plays. I seriously think Duncan may have more 20/20 games in his PO career than his regular season career.

Diesel J
02-05-2007, 04:17 PM
I know Chris Webber has atleast 2 or 3

lakers-city
02-05-2007, 04:18 PM
Thats cause he doesn't give a sh!t for the regular season. Just wait till the PO when Duncan really plays. I seriously think Duncan may have more 20/20 games in his PO career than his regular season career.

even in the playoffs he hasn't had a 20/20 game since game 5 of the 2nd round against the lakers in 2004, he didn't have a 20 rebound game in the 05 or 06 playoffs, this isn't a case of not wanting or not caring about it, this is a clear case of simply not being able to do it anymore :confusedshrug:

Wuxia
02-05-2007, 04:22 PM
even in the playoffs he hasn't had a 20/20 game since game 5 of the 2nd round against the lakers in 2004, he didn't have a 20 rebound game in the 05 or 06 playoffs, this isn't a case of not wanting or not caring about it, this is a clear case of simply not being able to do it anymore :confusedshrug:

I didn't realize he didn't have one the last 2 years. You do know Duncan was hurt the last 2 PO runs. He looks healthy this year.

Rab
02-05-2007, 04:34 PM
Sometimes I forget how good Stockton was, even though I idolized him as a kid.

Check out some of these lines:

20 PTS, 28 AST, 8 STL, 8-12 FG

26 PTS, 24 AST, 6 STL, 12-16 FG, 1(one!) TO
That is just plain sick dude.

Amare just got his first against the Spurs the other night.

raiderfan19
02-05-2007, 04:36 PM
I didn't realize he didn't have one the last 2 years. You do know Duncan was hurt the last 2 PO runs. He looks healthy this year.
duncan was as healthy as he has ever been for the playoffs last year.

lakers-city
02-05-2007, 04:44 PM
I didn't realize he didn't have one the last 2 years. You do know Duncan was hurt the last 2 PO runs. He looks healthy this year.

he looked healthy last year, he certainly gave all he had, in 05 he was healthy and 2 years younger than he is now, but again, shaq had a 36/20 game in 04 (32 years old) and a 30/20 against chicago at 34 years old, so there is no reason duncan can't do it anymore, all i said is i dont see it happening much anymore, the guy's best years are clearly behind him.

Wuxia
02-05-2007, 04:45 PM
duncan was as healthy as he has ever been for the playoffs last year.

Uhh, the guy had Planar Facitis all year last year. It does not go away w/o extended rest.

Wuxia
02-05-2007, 04:47 PM
he looked healthy last year, he certainly gave all he had, in 05 he was healthy and 2 years younger than he is now, but again, shaq had a 36/20 game in 04 (32 years old) and a 30/20 against chicago at 34 years old, so there is no reason duncan can't do it anymore, all i said is i dont see it happening much anymore, the guy's best years are clearly behind him.

Are you serious? Duncan sprained his ankle like twice in the PO in 2005, he just had to play through it. Last year Duncan played well in a short PO run but he was still bothered by Planar Facitis.

lakers-city
02-05-2007, 04:49 PM
wait wait, so you are gonna make excuses for the guy not grabbing 20 rebounds in a playoff game ?, this is nothing but an anecdothic thread in case you didn't notice :rolleyes:

i don't care why he hasn't done it, the point is, he hasn't and his rebounding isn't improving, its getting steadily worst with each passing year.

the guy's rebounding years are clearly behind him, deal with it.

Wuxia
02-05-2007, 04:56 PM
wait wait, so you are gonna make excuses for the guy not grabbing 20 rebounds in a playoff game ?, this is nothing but an anecdothic thread in case you didn't notice :rolleyes:

i don't care why he hasn't done it, the point is, he hasn't and his rebounding isn't improving, its getting steadily worst with each passing year.

the guy's rebounding years are clearly behind him, deal with it.

Thats where the misconception is. The reason why I say he will get more 20/20 games in the PO is because his minutes will increase. People look at his rebounding, they will say "oh he is only averaging 11 boards per game so he is on a decline in rebounding", but what you fail to realize is his minutes have dropped every year. If you look at his rebound rates its been as good as ever.

RainierBeachPoet
02-05-2007, 06:51 PM
duncan can score 20 on any given night, but i don't see him with the energy to grab 20+ rebounds anymore, maybe he can do it once per season but no much more.

my point was however that willis is vastly underrated, no one talks about him and he was a beast on the boards.

you are definitely right about kevin willis being underappreciated

he was just a monster on the boards and a major reason for the hawks success in the late 80s. he even played a number of games when he was 42 years old--- back with atlanta!

raiderfan19
02-05-2007, 07:45 PM
how many of these guys have done 30-20s? any 30-30s

lakers-city
02-05-2007, 07:55 PM
how many of these guys have done 30-20s? any 30-30s

shaq has 29 30/20 games (overall), 10 in the playoffs.

duncan has 9 30/20 games, 4 in the playoffs.

the others are too old to check it in basketball reference, they don't have playoff numbers before 94.

Wuxia
02-05-2007, 07:56 PM
shaq has 29 30/20 games, 10 in the playoffs.

Wow, thats impressive. Where do you get these statistics?

vert48
02-05-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm already placing bets that Greg Oden's over/under for his career 20/20 games will be 75. Any takers?No chance. Easy money. Sucker's bet.

lakers-city
02-05-2007, 08:01 PM
Wow, thats impressive. Where do you get these statistics?

in basketball reference, i check up season by season, they don't have the 95 playoffs but i remember in one game vs chicago shaq had 14 offensive rebounds and had something like 22 overall.

they have all of duncan's games because he came to the league in 99, they have all numbers after 1996, duncan has 9 30/20 and 4 or 5 playoff ones.

RainierBeachPoet
02-05-2007, 08:15 PM
any 30-30s

the original reference is: http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/twenty_twenty.html

and there is only one that was close...

1991-12-03 Kevin Willis ATL vs DAL 29 31


i would bet that wilt had a few 30-30 games...

BigTicket
02-05-2007, 08:23 PM
the original reference is: http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/twenty_twenty.html

and there is only one that was close...

1991-12-03 Kevin Willis ATL vs DAL 29 31


i would bet that wilt had a few 30-30 games...

I'm sure he would have, but you can't really compare as there were a LOT more rebounds to go around back then. For example the year where he had his career best 27.2 rpg there were 73.3rpg per team, compare that to last years 41rpg, and his 27.2rpg becomes the equivalent of 15.2rpg today, still easily enough for a rebounding title, but not as extreme as many seem to think.

raiderfan19
02-05-2007, 08:28 PM
the original reference is: http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/twenty_twenty.html

and there is only one that was close...

1991-12-03 Kevin Willis ATL vs DAL 29 31


i would bet that wilt had a few 30-30 games...
I bet wilt had at least 40 30-30 games in his career and im being pretty conservative.

Wuxia
02-05-2007, 08:32 PM
20/20 would be an off day for Wilt. I bet he had some 40/40s, Lol...

cyco127
02-05-2007, 08:50 PM
I know Boozer's also had a few 20/20 games... I think he even had a 30/20 game against seattle (last year or the year before).

RainierBeachPoet
02-06-2007, 12:43 AM
I'm sure he would have, but you can't really compare as there were a LOT more rebounds to go around back then. For example the year where he had his career best 27.2 rpg there were 73.3rpg per team, compare that to last years 41rpg, and his 27.2rpg becomes the equivalent of 15.2rpg today, still easily enough for a rebounding title, but not as extreme as many seem to think.

but we go by pure numbers-- not percentages

its not wilts fault we shoot better today

Y2Gezee
02-06-2007, 01:56 AM
Kwame's was a 30 20 game I believe.

Sword.Dragons
02-06-2007, 06:12 AM
yeh why isnt D-Howard on that list

Bcoz he doesn't have 13 yet.. :hammerhead:

Sword.Dragons
02-06-2007, 06:13 AM
but we go by pure numbers-- not percentages

its not wilts fault we shoot better today

Or maybe its bcoz more shots were thrown up?
anyone got team %'s when Wilt was playing?

lakers-city
02-06-2007, 06:55 AM
you have to keep wilt out of this to make it fair, averaging 25 rebounds back then was like averaging 15 rebounds in the 80's or 90's, i don't deny wilt is the best rebounder ever and could lead any era in that category, but his numbers are inflated as hell, people always talk about how great is to average 50 ppg, yet they don't mention he took 41 shots per game, how many points would jordan or shaq average with 41 shots per game ? i say around 50 as well.

jordan took around 28 shots when he averaged 37 ppg.

shaq only took around 21 shots when he averaged 29.7 ppg.

Gad23
02-06-2007, 10:18 AM
im sure yao has a 20-20 or two. camby as well.

DreamRockets
02-06-2007, 10:57 AM
this is a very exclusive list of guys who had games of at least 20 points and 20 rebounds or assists:


# of
20/20s name


13 david robinson

18 patrick ewing

19 tim duncan

20 kevin willis

25 kevin garnett

26 charles barkley

32 hakeem

34 shaq



there are some impressive totals.

do you remember seeing any of these games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/twenty_twenty.html


how about some props to kevin willis. i knew he had some, but i wouldnt have guessed he had more than d.rob, patrick and td

i wish i knew the old school totals of wilt/russ/nate thurmond/wes unseld and more


im sure if you extend you research to 1980 moses malone has plenty of those too.

hakeem got the shaft on this one, he only has 2 less than shaq but if you include his first 2 seasons he has more than shaq.

what about this one, 40/20 playoff performances since 1980:

Moses Malone, Houston vs. Kansas City ///1980-81/// 42-23

Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston at Seattle (OT) ///1986-87 ///49-25

Olajuwon, Houston at Dallas /// 1987-88 ///41-26

Charles Barkley, Phoenix vs. Seattle/// 1992-93/// 44-24

David Robinson, San Antonio vs. Phoenix ///1995-96 ///40-21

Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Indiana /// 1999-00 ///40-24

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///44-21

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///43-20

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Philadelphia /// 2000-01 /// 44-20


wilt is the all-time leader with 12 40/20 post season games, baylor is 2nd with 5, shaq is 3rd with 4.

RainierBeachPoet
02-06-2007, 12:38 PM
Kwame's was a 30 20 game I believe.

i couldnt find kwame anywhere on the list for a 20-20

hateraid
02-06-2007, 12:43 PM
Not really that mention worthy but I remeber watching JR Reid did it in his rookie year with Charlotte. Gawd, I feel old for remembering JR Ried.

Diesel J
02-06-2007, 12:53 PM
Can someone find the exact stats to these Webber games for me?


Recorded his ninth-career 20-point, 20-rebound game with 27 points and 21 rebounds, versus Minnesota (12/12)

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_webber/bio.html

raiderfan19
02-06-2007, 02:03 PM
im sure if you extend you research to 1980 moses malone has plenty of those too.

hakeem got the shaft on this one, he only has 2 less than shaq but if you include his first 2 seasons he has more than shaq.

what about this one, 40/20 playoff performances since 1980:

Moses Malone, Houston vs. Kansas City ///1980-81/// 42-23

Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston at Seattle (OT) ///1986-87 ///49-25

Olajuwon, Houston at Dallas /// 1987-88 ///41-26

Charles Barkley, Phoenix vs. Seattle/// 1992-93/// 44-24

David Robinson, San Antonio vs. Phoenix ///1995-96 ///40-21

Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Indiana /// 1999-00 ///40-24

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///44-21

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///43-20

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Philadelphia /// 2000-01 /// 44-20


wilt is the all-time leader with 12 40/20 post season games, baylor is 2nd with 5, shaq is 3rd with 4.
i remember dirk was darn close to one of those. He had 42 and 18 in the game he got all his teeth knocked out in against the spurs quite a few years back.

RainierBeachPoet
02-06-2007, 02:23 PM
im sure if you extend you research to 1980 moses malone has plenty of those too.

hakeem got the shaft on this one, he only has 2 less than shaq but if you include his first 2 seasons he has more than shaq.

what about this one, 40/20 playoff performances since 1980:

Moses Malone, Houston vs. Kansas City ///1980-81/// 42-23

Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston at Seattle (OT) ///1986-87 ///49-25

Olajuwon, Houston at Dallas /// 1987-88 ///41-26

Charles Barkley, Phoenix vs. Seattle/// 1992-93/// 44-24

David Robinson, San Antonio vs. Phoenix ///1995-96 ///40-21

Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Indiana /// 1999-00 ///40-24

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///44-21

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///43-20

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Philadelphia /// 2000-01 /// 44-20


wilt is the all-time leader with 12 40/20 post season games, baylor is 2nd with 5, shaq is 3rd with 4.


DR-- good find! ( i just found the reference by chance and was too lazy to look up the pre-1987 stats!)

more later on at least one of these games that you listed... i am at work right now shhhhhhhhh

dejordan
02-06-2007, 03:12 PM
but we go by pure numbers-- not percentages

its not wilts fault we shoot better today
are you sure about that? who knows how many of today's great players are decendants of the stilt?

RainierBeachPoet
02-06-2007, 03:37 PM
are you sure about that? who knows how many of today's great players are decendants of the stilt?


actually, i am not sure of the percentages; i just threw out a quick (un)witty comment

could be a function of just the total number of shots more than the strict percentages

as to the # of wilts offspring--- only God knows

maybe we could run a pool and take some action on it. lets see, 20,000 women--- hmmmm

RainierBeachPoet
02-06-2007, 07:33 PM
Not really that mention worthy but I remeber watching JR Reid did it in his rookie year with Charlotte. Gawd, I feel old for remembering JR Ried.

JR deserves a good mention!! he was a decent player

ps-- youre still a youngster h-aid

shaqman
02-07-2007, 09:44 PM
im sure if you extend you research to 1980 moses malone has plenty of those too.

hakeem got the shaft on this one, he only has 2 less than shaq but if you include his first 2 seasons he has more than shaq.

what about this one, 40/20 playoff performances since 1980:

Moses Malone, Houston vs. Kansas City ///1980-81/// 42-23

Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston at Seattle (OT) ///1986-87 ///49-25

Olajuwon, Houston at Dallas /// 1987-88 ///41-26

Charles Barkley, Phoenix vs. Seattle/// 1992-93/// 44-24

David Robinson, San Antonio vs. Phoenix ///1995-96 ///40-21

Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Indiana /// 1999-00 ///40-24

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///44-21

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Sacramento /// 2000-01 ///43-20

O'Neal, L.A. Lakers vs. Philadelphia /// 2000-01 /// 44-20


wilt is the all-time leader with 12 40/20 post season games, baylor is 2nd with 5, shaq is 3rd with 4.

how is that even possible, to grab 20 boards, and get 40 points? :bowdown:

cyco127
02-08-2007, 11:31 AM
how is that even possible, to grab 20 boards, and get 40 points? :bowdown:


Lots of offensive rebounds...

RainierBeachPoet
02-08-2007, 12:09 PM
how is that even possible, to grab 20 boards, and get 40 points? :bowdown:


and a ton of foul calls.

if i recall that 1993 barkely game vs my sonics, it was game 7 of the western conference finals and the suns shot over an ungodly number of free throws compared with the sonics (anyone find a box score?-- my memory fails me at times)

it made us speculate at the time a nba "conspiracy" to get a barkely vs jordan finals

nonetheless, charles had a monster game...

lakers-city
02-08-2007, 01:08 PM
of ocurse a lot of foul calls have to be made.

shaq had 17/32 and 10 fts, total of 44 points.

then 18/26 and 7 fts, total 43 points.

21/31 and only 1 ft made, total 43 points.

11/18 and 18 of 39 ft made, total 40 points.

17/28 and 10 ft made, total 44 points.

of all those who got 40/20 games hakeem is probably the one who got less foul calls and had to shoot and hit more field goals.

qrich
02-08-2007, 01:12 PM
I'm sure Brand has near 7 . . . Kaman also got one the same game as one of Elton's

RainierBeachPoet
02-08-2007, 07:34 PM
i want to see someone get a 20-20 game with rebounds and assists (or blocks)

shaqman
02-08-2007, 10:07 PM
i want to see someone get a 20-20 game with rebounds and assists (or blocks)

why not a 20-20-20 game?

RainierBeachPoet
02-09-2007, 12:30 PM
why not a 20-20-20 game?


anyone know if wilt ever pulled this off in any form?

n.b. he did lead the league in assists in 1968...

Yung D-Will
07-06-2010, 01:10 PM
Dwight Howard dominated the Pacers on Monday, scoring 21 points and grabbing 23 rebounds. It was his 26th career 20-20 game.

:applause:

SayTownRy
07-06-2010, 02:17 PM
better add dejuan blair to the list. first rookie since duncan to do it. twice. three if you count the rookie sophomore (record setting) game.

alexandreben
07-06-2010, 02:27 PM
Wilt Chamberlain had average 20-20 in 10 consecutive seasons, Jerry Lucas had two and even Thurmond had one season averaged 20-20, compare with those old schools really made the big men nowadays like midgets

ThaRegul8r
07-06-2010, 04:13 PM
There's really no point to that, Wilt would literally have hundreds. He averaged a 20/20 for something like 8 straight seasons.

It would be too numerous to list all of Wilt's. You'd be listing every game for entire seasons, maybe minus the odd game or two.

ThaRegul8r
07-06-2010, 04:16 PM
why not a 20-20-20 game?

anyone know if wilt ever pulled this off in any form?

n.b. he did lead the league in assists in 1968...

Wilt did pull it off, in fact. And it was during the '68 season in which he led the league in assists. February 2, 1968, Wilt had 22 points (9-13 FG), 25 rebounds and 21 assists. The only DOUBLE triple double in NBA history.

Round Mound
07-06-2010, 06:05 PM
No surprise seeing Charles Barkley there despite playing lesser games than those above him. If Barkley kept the level of 85-95 he would have owned all regarding the 20 and 20 department for points and rebounds.

Kevin Willis is like Otis Thorpe (the Real Best Defending PF of the late 80s and early 90s, not Grant) so underrated as Top of the line PF.

RoseCity07
07-06-2010, 06:19 PM
For some reason I think Brian Grant had one, but maybe he didn't have the points. Anyway, I bet Oden will get one next year. He had like 13 and 20 in 30 minutes, with 11 offensive boards.

SCdac
07-06-2010, 06:44 PM
DeJuan "The Beast" Blair ...... in his rookie season

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/files/2010/04/dejuan-blair-rockets-575x446.jpg

last game of the season:

27 points, 23 rebounds (8 off), 4 assists, 3 steals, 36 minutes

versus the Thunder:

28 points, 21 rebounds (10 off), 2 steals, 2 blocks, 31 minues

rookie all-star game:

21 points, 23 rebounds (record for the rookie challenge)

Round Mound
07-06-2010, 07:02 PM
DeJuan "The Beast" Blair ...... in his rookie season

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/files/2010/04/dejuan-blair-rockets-575x446.jpg

last game of the season:

27 points, 23 rebounds (8 off), 4 assists, 3 steals, 36 minutes

versus the Thunder:

28 points, 21 rebounds (10 off), 2 steals, 2 blocks, 31 minues

rookie all-star game:

21 points, 23 rebounds (record for the rookie challenge)

That kid is a monster rebounder. Saw him play too

Jailblazers7
07-06-2010, 07:16 PM
:applause:

Love me some Dejuan Blair. Dude is an animal.

EarlTheGoat
07-06-2010, 07:55 PM
Nobody had 20 points and 20 assist?

PHILA
07-06-2010, 07:59 PM
Wilt did pull it off, in fact. And it was during the '68 season in which he led the league in assists. February 2, 1968, Wilt had 22 points (9-13 FG), 25 rebounds and 21 assists. The only DOUBLE triple double in NBA history.

Indeed, not to neglect his several quadruple double-doubles.


On November 4, 1959, Chamberlain, in his third game in the NBA, scored 41 points and grabbed a then-rookie record 40 rebounds against the Syracuse Nationals.

On January 15, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Boston Celtics.

On January 25, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored an NBA rookie record 58 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On February 6, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed an NBA rookie record 45 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On December 8, 1961, Chamberlain scored a then-record 78 points and collected 43 rebounds against the Los Angeles Lakers.

Knick Killer
07-06-2010, 08:01 PM
Indeed, not to neglect his several quadruple double-doubles.


On November 4, 1959, Chamberlain, in his third game in the NBA, scored 41 points and grabbed a then-rookie record 40 rebounds against the Syracuse Nationals.

On January 15, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Boston Celtics.

On January 25, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored an NBA rookie record 58 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On February 6, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed an NBA rookie record 45 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On December 8, 1961, Chamberlain scored a then-record 78 points and collected 43 rebounds against the Los Angeles Lakers.
this clown is a savage chamberlain fellator who indeed believezzz in the creedence that wilt is the goat....

Harison
07-06-2010, 09:55 PM
Nobody had 20 points and 20 assist?
Wilt and Stockton.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 01:00 AM
this clown is a savage chamberlain fellator who indeed believezzz in the creedence that wilt is the goat....

The RECORD BOOK suggests that Wilt is the G.O.A.T.

Some 130+

As for this topic...

Not sure how accurate this list is but...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_NBA_players_have_scored_30_points_and_grabbe d_30_rebounds_in_one_game

If I counted right...Wilt has 103 30-30 games.

I also counted Wilt having 55 of the 61 TOTAL 40-30 games in NBA HISTORY.

AND I believe that list just covers REGULAR season games.

Wilt had FOUR 40-30 games just against Russell in the post-season (including a 50-35 game...as well as at least another 56-35 game against Syracuse in the playoffs. And he had NINE 30-30 games against Russell in the playoffs.

Wilt also had 35 20-20 games against Russell in their 49 H2H post-season games. And, he had 106 20-20 games against Russell in their 142 H2H games.

momo
07-07-2010, 02:15 AM
Didnt Gasol have a 20 20 this season?

Manute for Ever!
07-07-2010, 02:39 AM
Not NBA, but damn impressive nonetheless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWg5boXIqQI
32pts, 29rebs, 31blks.

And, no, I am not responsible for any of the comments on that video.

scm5
07-07-2010, 02:42 AM
Didnt Gasol have a 20 20 this season?

I think he had 2.

ai9
07-07-2010, 05:11 AM
kenny thomas might have had a couple

Scoooter
07-07-2010, 05:18 AM
Wilt did pull it off, in fact. And it was during the '68 season in which he led the league in assists. February 2, 1968, Wilt had 22 points (9-13 FG), 25 rebounds and 21 assists. The only DOUBLE triple double in NBA history.
****ing Wilt. If there's something insane to be done in a basketball game, you can feel safe betting he has. Just randomly think of a ridiculous stat line or athletic feat, and check the record books - you'll see "Wilt" more often than not.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

west
07-07-2010, 05:36 AM
KG used to be have one of those monster 20/20/7 game every now and then, now he have a hard time to grab 8 boards....:ohwell: :cry:

Shep
07-07-2010, 08:43 AM
20/20 is unfair for guards. it should be 20/20 rebounds, or 20/10 assists

ThaRegul8r
07-07-2010, 08:50 AM
Wilt did pull it off, in fact. And it was during the '68 season in which he led the league in assists. February 2, 1968, Wilt had 22 points (9-13 FG), 25 rebounds and 21 assists. The only DOUBLE triple double in NBA history.

****ing Wilt. If there's something insane to be done in a basketball game, you can feel safe betting he has. Just randomly think of a ridiculous stat line or athletic feat, and check the record books - you'll see "Wilt" more often than not.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

:oldlol:

Pretty much. And an interesting tidbit about that game: Wilt had 15 points, 14 rebounds and 10 assists at the half, meaning he had seven points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists in the second half. So not only did he get a double triple double, he was three second half points away from actually separately getting a triple double in each HALF. Think about that. Three second half points away from actually getting TWO separate triple doubles, one in each half.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 11:16 AM
****ing Wilt. If there's something insane to be done in a basketball game, you can feel safe betting he has. Just randomly think of a ridiculous stat line or athletic feat, and check the record books - you'll see "Wilt" more often than not.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

Wilt also ranks 4th ALL-TIME in Triple-Doubles...with 78 (Oscar with 181, Magic with 134, and Kidd with 105.) HOWEVER, Blocked shots were not an "official" stat. Harvey Pollack believes that Wilt had SEASONS with double-digit blocks. The "official" NBA record for blocks in a game is 17 by Elmore Smith (the year after Wilt retired...and the first year the NBA kept that stat.) BUT, there is a RECORDED game in 1969 in which Chamberlain blocked 23 shots. Furthermore, Pollack had one game in the early 60's in which Wilt blocked 25 shots.

And, while there have only been four "official" Quad-Doubles in NBA history (Thurmond, Alvin Robertson, Hakeem, and Robinson), Wilt had a RECORDED quad-double in the first game of the '67 ECF's (against Russell no-less) with a stat line of 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, and 12 blocks.

From the mid-60's on, the assumption would have to be that Wilt probably had MANY quad-doubles.

Incidently, thanks to Julizaver, Wilt had this triple-double stat line in the first round of the '67 playoffs against the Royals, 16 points, 30 rebounds, and 19 assists.

For that series, Chamberlain averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11 apg, and shot .612. And that was when Wilt had cut back his shooting dramatically. It was one of the few series in which he did not face a HOF center (Connie Dierking, who was a decent NBA center for years.)

As a sidenote, per Julizaver, in his research, in all of the series in which he could find the data, only TWO centers shot over 50% against Wilt in a post-season series. Zelmo Beatty in 1964, at .521, and 14.3 ppg (while Wilt was at 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and also shot .521), and Clifford Ray with 15.3 ppg on .529 shooting in the '72 playoffs.

All of which is interesting. How good was Wilt's DEFENSE...especially in the post-season? Kareem, in his two post-seasons against Wilt shot .468 and .457 (he was at .577 and .574 in those two seasons...so far less than 100 points below his normal FG%.) Chamberlain played against HOFer Nate Thurmond three times in the playoffs. Thurmond shot .343, .392, and .398. In the '68 EC playoffs, Wilt held HOFer Bellamy, who had shot .541 during the regular season, to .421 in six games.

And while Bill Russell usually held Wilt below his normal ppg and FG%, it must be noted that Chamberlain did the same to him. In the '64-65 Finals, Russell shot .702 against the Lakers. Against Wilt in the prior series? .451. In the 63-64 Finals, Wilt put up a 29-27 .550 series against Russell, while Russell had an 11-25 series against Wilt. I could not find Russell's FG% against Wilt in that series, but in his ten post-season games that year, he shot .356...and half of those games were against Wilt. In the '68 ECF's, Russell averaged 14 ppg against Wilt, and 21.2 against his two other playoff opponents. In the '66 ECF's, in which Wilt outscored Russell 28 ppg to 14 ppg...Russell went on to average 23.6 ppg in seven games in the Finals against the Lakers. In the '67 ECF's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 22-10, outrebounded him, per game, 32-23, outassisted him, per game, 10-6, and outshot him for the series, .556 to .358.

Back to OP...

I already documented the fact that Wilt had 106 20-20 games, JUST AGAINST RUSSELL, in his career. He had EIGHT seasons of 20-20's...and his CAREER AVERAGE is 30 ppg and 23 rpg. I suspect that he probably had perhaps as many as 500-600, or more 20-20 games in his career.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 11:57 AM
There have been 130 30-30 games in NBA regular season HISTORY...and Wilt has 103 of them. That means that he has FOUR times as many 30-30 games, than all of the rest of the NBA players, in NBA HISTORY....COMBINED (103-27.)

I have also mentioned it before, but of the 61 regular season 40-30 games, Wilt has 55 of them...with the other SIX accomplished by everyone else who ever played in the NBA....COMBINED.

He also has the only FOUR 50-40 games in NBA history.

ThaRegul8r
07-07-2010, 12:59 PM
Wilt also ranks 4th ALL-TIME in Triple-Doubles...with 78 (Oscar with 181, Magic with 134, and Kidd with 105.) HOWEVER, Blocked shots were not an "official" stat. Harvey Pollack believes that Wilt had SEASONS with double-digit blocks. The "official" NBA record for blocks in a game is 17 by Elmore Smith (the year after Wilt retired...and the first year the NBA kept that stat.) BUT, there is a RECORDED game in 1969 in which Chamberlain blocked 23 shots. Furthermore, Pollack had one game in the early 60's in which Wilt blocked 25 shots.

Speaking of this, I have been making an effort to record Wilt's triple doubles, because I was curious as to how many came around '66-67 and '67-68. We know he had 31 of his 78 in '67-68 (2nd all-time), which is 40% by itself. I have 18 of his 31 in '67-68, and all but 2 of his record 9 nine straight. I need assist numbers for the last game of the season, and I haven't been able to find any numbers of the third game of his streak, a 139-115 win over Chicago 3/12/68.

As far as points/rebounds/blocks, he did have an unrecorded triple double (since blocks weren't officially kept) of 38 points, 26 rebounds and 11 blocked shots in a Game 4 playoff game against Cincinnati in 1965, 33 points, 17 rebounds and 16 blocks 12/26/65 in a 121-106 win over San Francisco (along with eight assists for the near quad), and 18 points, 24 rebounds and 17 blocks (as much as the recognized official record) 11/8/66 in a 118-100 win over New York in a regular season game.


And, while there have only been four "official" Quad-Doubles in NBA history (Thurmond, Alvin Robertson, Hakeem, and Robinson), Wilt had a RECORDED quad-double in the first game of the '67 ECF's (against Russell no-less) with a stat line of 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists, and 12 blocks.

Wilt also had a recorded quadruple double in Game 2 of the NBA Finals, with 10 points, 38 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 blocks. And as aforementioned, he was two assists away from another quadruple double that I've found so far.

EDIT: Quadruple doubles in back-to-back series against Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond, the two acknowledged best defensive centers of the era. Not bad. I've always said this was the greatest single season in NBA history, and the more research I do only confirms it for me.


From the mid-60's on, the assumption would have to be that Wilt probably had MANY quad-doubles.

Undoubtedly.


Incidently, thanks to Julizaver, Wilt had this triple-double stat line in the first round of the '67 playoffs against the Royals, 16 points, 30 rebounds, and 19 assists.

The latter tying a playoff record set by Bob Cousy at the time. But he also had a 37-point, 27-rebound, 11-assist game just before that (the 19 assist game was Game 3 of the series), and he narrowly missed one in the elimination game with 18 points, 27 rebounds and nine assists. He averaged a triple double for the series, but I don't have the exact number because I don't have the assist numbers for Game 1 (41 pts, 22 rebs, ? ast). I know he averaged 28 points and 26.5 rebounds.


For that series, Chamberlain averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11 apg, and shot .612.

Well that solves that then. Since he had 39 in Games 2-4, if what you say is correct, that means he had five assists in Game 1 (41 pts, 22 rebs, 5 asts)

jlauber
07-07-2010, 01:23 PM
Speaking of this, I have been making an effort to record Wilt's triple doubles, because I was curious as to how many came around '66-67 and '67-68. We know he had 31 of his 78 in '67-68 (2nd all-time), which is 40% by itself. I have 18 of his 31 in '67-68, and all but 2 of his record 9 nine straight. I need assist numbers for the last game of the season, and I haven't been able to find any numbers of the third game of his streak, a 139-115 win over Chicago 3/12/68.

As far as points/rebounds/blocks, he did have an unrecorded triple double (since blocks weren't officially kept) of 38 points, 26 rebounds and 11 blocked shots in a Game 4 playoff game against Cincinnati in 1965, 33 points, 17 rebounds and 16 blocks 12/26/65 in a 121-106 win over San Francisco (along with eight assists for the near quad), and 18 points, 24 rebounds and 17 blocks (as much as the recognized official record) 11/8/66 in a 118-100 win over New York in a regular season game.



Wilt also had a recorded quadruple double in Game 2 of the NBA Finals, with 10 points, 38 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 blocks. And as aforementioned, he was two assists away from another quadruple double that I've found so far.

EDIT: Quadruple doubles in back-to-back series against Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond, the two acknowledged best defensive centers of the era. Not bad. I've always said this was the greatest single season in NBA history, and the more research I do only confirms it for me.



Undoubtedly.



The latter tying a playoff record set by Bob Cousy at the time. But he also had a 37-point, 27-rebound, 11-assist game just before that (the 19 assist game was Game 3 of the series), and he narrowly missed one in the elimination game with 18 points, 27 rebounds and nine assists. He averaged a triple double for the series, but I don't have the exact number because I don't have the assist numbers for Game 1 (41 pts, 22 rebs, ? ast). I know he averaged 28 points and 26.5 rebounds.



Well that solves that then. Since he had 39 in Games 2-4, if what you say is correct, that means he had five assists in Game 1 (41 pts, 22 rebs, 5 asts)

DAMN! That is some GREAT research!

Incidently, Russell has received heavy criticism here for his OFFENSE. Yet, in my research, he has some quality post-season series, although, as I mentioned previously, Wilt did a solid job of limiting him. Perhaps you can provide the readers here with some examples of just how good an OFFENSIVE player Russell was.

As for Wilt...his numbers always get disparaged here, (by mostly just a COUPLE of posters), but I find it fascinating that, with all the talk of ERA and PACE...that it is basically ONLY WILT that has put these MONSTER games in NBA HISTORY. There have been a handful of 40-30 games by others (SIX to be exact)...and yet Wilt had 55 of them. He also had FIVE more in the post-season, and FOUR of them were against Russell (who had two 30-30 games against Wilt BTW.)

Even later in Chamberlain's career, when his scoring was an afterthought, he put up two 30-30 games...in the 71-72 season...which is one more than Kareem had in his ENTIRE 20 year career. CLEARLY, there was Wilt...and then there was everyone else.

Disaprine
07-07-2010, 01:48 PM
Indeed, not to neglect his several quadruple double-doubles.


On November 4, 1959, Chamberlain, in his third game in the NBA, scored 41 points and grabbed a then-rookie record 40 rebounds against the Syracuse Nationals.

On January 15, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Boston Celtics.

On January 25, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored an NBA rookie record 58 points and grabbed 42 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On February 6, 1960, Chamberlain, as a rookie, scored 44 points and grabbed an NBA rookie record 45 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons.

On December 8, 1961, Chamberlain scored a then-record 78 points and collected 43 rebounds against the Los Angeles Lakers.
:applause:

Disaprine
07-07-2010, 01:50 PM
****ing Wilt. If there's something insane to be done in a basketball game, you can feel safe betting he has. Just randomly think of a ridiculous stat line or athletic feat, and check the record books - you'll see "Wilt" more often than not.

:bowdown: :bowdown:
agreed

jlauber
07-07-2010, 01:51 PM
I have discussed Wilt's 66-67 season here before. IMHO, had Wilt been asked to carry that Sixer team offensively, I firmly believe he would have put up a 40-20 .600 season.

Of all of Wilt's staggering statistical seasons...that 66-67 season is just MILES ahead of any of them. To give you an example, in his 65-66 season, he averaged 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting. AND, his FG% had gone up almost every season. Then, in the 67-68 season, Wilt averaged 24 ppg on .595 shooting. But sandwiched in between them was a 24-24 .683 season.

Not only that, but his EFFICIENCY AND SCORING in 66-67 were phenomenal. He had a 58 point game, in which he shot 26-34. He had the THREE highest "perfect" games in NBA HISTORY that season, with games of 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18 (the latter in a 43 point game.) He made 35 STRAIGHT FGs at one point, as well. He won the rebounding title by over three rebounds a game, and finished third in asists at 7.8 apg.

He guided that team to a then-record 68-13 mark. Early on he led the Sixers to a 138-96 thrashing of the Celtics, and from that point on they were nearly unbeatable...going 46-4 at one point.

In the playoffs, he destroyed Cincinnati with his 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and .612 FG% numbers in round one. Then, in the ECF's, against the eight-time defending Celtics, and their FOUR HOFers, and with their sparkling 60-21 record, they nearly SWEPT Boston, just losing game four by a 121-117 margin. In the clinching game five, Wilt outscored Russell, 29-4, outshot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5, outassisted Russell, 13-7, and outrebounded him, 36-21. That game was interesting, too. Boston raced out to an early 17 point lead in the 1st period. Wilt single-handedly kept Philly in the game in the first half, with 22 points, and the Sixers narrowed the deficit to one at the half. In the second half, Chamberlain's teammates dominated Russell's, (for one of the few times in his career), and the Sixers pulled away. With about four minutes left, Philadelphia led 131-104...en route to a 140-116 win. BUT, from near the end of the first period, to that four minute mark, the 76ers had outscored Boston by 44 points.

In that series, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 22-10; outrebounded Russell, per game, 32-23 (including a playoff record 41 in game three): outassisted Russell, per game, 10-6; and outshot Russell from the field, .556 to .358.

In the Finals, HOFer Nate Thurmond battled Wilt on the glass, with Wilt winning the war, 28.5 rpg to Nate's 26.7 rpg. BUT, Chamberlain, despite shooting 12 shots a game, outscored Thurmond 17.5 ppg to 14.3. Not only that, but Chamberlain outshot Thurmond by an eye-popping .560 to .343 margin.

The Warriors did give Philly a run...but Wilt stopped a potential game-winning FG in the waning seconds of game six, and preserved the championship. And while Philly won that series, 4-2...they did demonstrate their awesome potential with a 126-95 rout in game two.

In any case, Wilt's 66-67 season HAS to rank among the very best of all-time.

Stoney
07-07-2010, 01:55 PM
I know Chris Webber has atleast 2 or 3

I think he had a 51/26 against the Pacers in 01, can anyone confirm that?

SinJackal
07-07-2010, 02:06 PM
DeJuan Blair: 2 20/20s this last season.

28/21 vs OKC, and 27/23 vs Dallas


Joakim Noah: 21/20 vs Cavs in the postseason last year.


Duncan last year had a 21/27 vs Hawks


D Howard has a 20/22 vs Nets, 25/20 vs Bucks, 21/23 vs Pacers, and 6 other 20 reb games but didn't quite make 20 points in them.


So D Howard had 3 last season, Blair had 2. Not sure if anyone else had 2, 3, or more games of 20/20s last season.

SinJackal
07-07-2010, 02:07 PM
Btw, at some point people need to start denoting stat differences to "modern era" basketball and "classic era" or some shit. Because nobody is gonna average no damn 20+ rebs a game now.

Knick Killer
07-07-2010, 03:06 PM
I have discussed Wilt's 66-67 season here before. IMHO, had Wilt been asked to carry that Sixer team offensively, I firmly believe he would have put up a 40-20 .600 season.


shut the **** up u ******...go **** urself..r u wilts illegitimate child


lol clown

shaq>wilt
kareem>wilt
hakeem>wilt
russell>wilt

Knick Killer
07-07-2010, 03:06 PM
larry bird has 25 20/20 games

Knick Killer
07-07-2010, 03:06 PM
u mad?

Knick Killer
07-07-2010, 03:07 PM
jlauber is gay

Knick Killer
07-07-2010, 03:07 PM
jlauber loves c0ck

jlauber
07-07-2010, 04:04 PM
larry bird has 25 20/20 games

That equals about one month in Wilt's career.

Scoooter
07-07-2010, 04:07 PM
That equals about one month in Wilt's career.
Yeah, but Larry was 5 inches shorter and only had one one-millionth of Wilt's athleticism, so it's still awesome.

Larry Legend. :rockon:

Nets fan 93
07-07-2010, 04:09 PM
Future Net Boozer had one

27-20 against LAL in the playoffs

jlauber
07-07-2010, 04:10 PM
Yeah, but Larry was 5 inches shorter and only had one one-millionth of Wilt's athleticism, so it's still awesome.

Larry Legend. :rockon:

Not diminishing Bird's efforts...just pointing out that a 20-20 game was considered ordinary...for Wilt...and virtually NO ONE else.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 04:12 PM
Think about this...Bill Russell has been regarded as the greatest defensive center in NBA history, and certainly one of the greatest rebounders ever...

and in their 142 H2H meetings...Wilt AVERAGED 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg...

or nearly a 30-30 game EVERY time the two met.

Scoooter
07-07-2010, 04:15 PM
Not diminishing Bird's efforts...just pointing out that a 20-20 game was considered ordinary...for Wilt...and virtually NO ONE else.
Definitely, definitely. Wilt was mythic really. Kind of a modern day folk hero, stronger than 10 men and slayer of a million ******s. I wrote a paper on it once.

Knick Killer
07-07-2010, 04:22 PM
That equals about one month in Wilt's career.
retard wilt wilted in the playoffs

Harison
07-07-2010, 04:22 PM
That equals about one month in Wilt's career.
Yes, because everything was the same - eras, pace, rules, etc :rolleyes: If Wilt played today, we wouldnt be talking about 30-40 rebounds games, or 50PPG season. Or about similar stats from other superstars of that period, like Russells 30/40 games. Stats are relative.

ThaRegul8r
07-07-2010, 04:29 PM
DAMN! That is some GREAT research!

I'd intended to let the public know just good Wilt and Russell were, because unfortunately all too many people are unaware.


Incidently, Russell has received heavy criticism here for his OFFENSE. Yet, in my research, he has some quality post-season series, although, as I mentioned previously, Wilt did a solid job of limiting him. Perhaps you can provide the readers here with some examples of just how good an OFFENSIVE player Russell was.

It's funny, because my research unearthed a 31-point, 24-rebound, six block game against New York in a 122-111 win, and you wouldn't think this was Russell from what you hear about his offense: 26 points in the second half, a turnaround to give Boston a 90-89 lead (turnaround? what?) Steals a pass, hits a jump shot and scores on a free throw, then assists to Sam Jones to put Boston up to stay, 99-97. Boston out-scored New York 32-22 in the fourth quarter, Russell leading the way with 12, and Sam Jones scoring eight.

How about a 37-point game by Russell in '67-68, tying his career high, with 19 rebounds, eight blocked shots and seven assists, helping Boston come back from a seven-point deficit in the fourth quarter, and scoring the clutch basket that puts them up for good, 112-111?

Unfortunately I don't have the time to find it right now, but there's a game in which Russell hit a hook shot to win the game (wait, what? Are we talking about Russell, or did Kareem somehow switch places with him?).

Incidentally, Bob Cousy said in 1961,

jlauber
07-07-2010, 04:47 PM
Yes, because everything was the same - eras, pace, rules, etc :rolleyes: If Wilt played today, we wouldnt be talking about 30-40 rebounds games, or 50PPG season. Or about similar stats from other superstars of that period, like Russells 30/40 games. Stats are relative.

Throw out Baylor's part-time 38 ppg season (in half a season.) That means that DURING the Chamberlain-era we had Rick Barry with a 35.6 ppg season, Kareem with a 34.8 ppg season, and Baylor with a 34.8 ppg season. All in era's of more shots, but lower FG% as well.

Jordan's 37.1 ppg season came on .482 shooting in a league that averaged 110 and shot .480. By contrast, Wilt's 50 ppg, on .509 shooting, which was 19 ppg ahead of his nearest competitor, came in a league that averaged 119 ppg on .426 shooting. Or how about Wilt's 45 ppg season, on .528 shooting, in a league that averaged 115 ppg on .441 shooting?

Kobe's '06 season was remarkable in that he averaged 35.4 ppg on .450 shooting in a league that averaged 97 ppg on .454 shooting. But, Iverson averaged 33 ppg and James 31.4 ppg. When Jordan averaged 37, his nearest competitor averaged 29. Once again, Wilt was outscoring his nearest rival by nearly 20 ppg!

If Wilt had never played, there would be Jerry Lucas with two 20-20 seasons, Bob Pettit with one, and Nate Thurmond with one that was accomplished in 51 games. That is it. Meanwhile, Wilt had EIGHT 20-20 SEASONS.

BEFORE Wilt entered the NBA, the seasonal scoring record was 29.2 ppg. He shattered that mark in his first season with 37.6 in his first season. He AVERAGED 40 ppg in his first seven seasons...COMBINED. AFTER Wilt retired, the highest scoring season was MJ's 37.1 ppg.

BEFORE Wilt's rookie year, the seasonal rebounding record was 23.0 rpg. He smashed that in his first season at 27.0 rpg, and topped it a year later with a 27.2 rpg average. He had TEN seasons of over 20 rpg, and he never had a post-season of less than 20 rpg in his 13 post-seasons. In his last post-season, at age 36, he averaged 22.5 rpg. AFTER Wilt retired, the highest rebounding average is Rodman's 18.7 rpg.

BEFORE Chamberlain's initial season, the seasonal FG% mark was .490. Wilt broke that mark with a .509 in his second year. He would set new FG% records FOUR more times. His .727 mark in his LAST season was set in a league that shot .456, and was .157 ahead of his nearest rival. His .683 mark in the 66-67 season came in a league that shot .441, and was a record differential .162 ahead of his nearest competitor. AFTER Wilt retired, the highest season has been Artis Gilmore's .670 in a league that shot .480, and with his closest rival at .607.

Why is it ONLY WILT that stands out?

jlauber
07-07-2010, 05:04 PM
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I'd intended to let the public know just good Wilt and Russell were, because unfortunately all too many people are unaware.



It's funny, because my research unearthed a 31-point, 24-rebound, six block game against New York in a 122-111 win, and you wouldn't think this was Russell from what you hear about his offense: 26 points in the second half, a turnaround to give Boston a 90-89 lead (turnaround? what?) Steals a pass, hits a jump shot and scores on a free throw, then assists to Sam Jones to put Boston up to stay, 99-97. Boston out-scored New York 32-22 in the fourth quarter, Russell leading the way with 12, and Sam Jones scoring eight.

How about a 37-point game by Russell in '67-68, tying his career high, with 19 rebounds, eight blocked shots and seven assists, helping Boston come back from a seven-point deficit in the fourth quarter, and scoring the clutch basket that puts them up for good, 112-111?

Unfortunately I don't have the time to find it right now, but there's a game in which Russell hit a hook shot to win the game (wait, what? Are we talking about Russell, or did Kareem somehow switch places with him?).

Incidentally, Bob Cousy said in 1961,

Harison
07-07-2010, 05:05 PM
jlauber, I think you are so orgasmic about Wilts individual records because you have nothing else to cheer on :( You even throw out eras/rules/pace just so you could enjoy such high stats, which wouldnt be higher than Jordans or Shaq in modern era. And when mattered the most - in the post-season, Jordan had higher PPG even disregarding pace.

Or we could look from another side - if Shaq would shoot 39.5 FGA and 17.0 FTA per game, he would average more than Wilt, hell - I could bet McHale could average more, if they played the same minutes.

I'm saying this not to diminish Wilts records, just putting them in perspective, records THEN arent equal to records NOW, this should be obvious to anyone, yet you diminish someone like Bird "oh, Wilt could do that in a month", no in the modern era he wouldnt.

Bottom line: basketball isnt about individual accomplishments, its about teams winning championships, and Wilt has nothing to be proud there, unlike certain other superstars. Like in the post above by ThaRegul8r, Russell played to win, Wilt played to stat pad.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 05:14 PM
retard wilt wilted in the playoffs

Yep...he was a complete flop in the playoffs. In his first six post-seasons, in his "scoring" seasons, he averaged 33 ppg with 26 rpg, on over 50% shooting (in leagues that averaged about .425)...COMBINED.

In his 13 post-season career, he NEVER averaged less than 20 rpg. In his FINAL post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg, and played every minute of the Finals. In fact, he AVERAGED 47.2 MPG in his 160 post-season games...COMBINED!

Not only that, but he faced a HOF center in 112 of his 160 post-season games. And while I don't have all of his post-season series numbers, I have only found ONE, in his 29 post-season series, in which he was outshot from the field, and that was by a .457 to ,452 margin. FURTHERMORE, I could not find ONE series, in those 29, in which he was outrebounded. In fact, he had post-season series in which he just CRUSHED his opposing center.

He was such a bitter failure, that he took four teams to within NINE points of beating the eventual champion Celtics FOUR times...and two of them were with teams that went 49-31 and 40-40. And in another, if the officials hadn't handed the Knicks game five of the '70 Finals, and he would have won still another title.

He was such a failure that he took nearly HALF of his post-season teams, SIX, out of 13, to the FINALS. He anchored TWO of them to perhaps the greatest seasons in NBA history. In the first one, in 66-67, he annihilated both Russell and Thurmond, en route to a title. In the second one, late in his career, he dominated Kareem, and then Lucas, while teammate Jerry West was awful...in leading that team to a title.

Yep...he was a "loser", a "choker", and a "failure."

jlauber
07-07-2010, 05:34 PM
jlauber, I think you are so orgasmic about Wilts individual records because you have nothing else to cheer on :( You even throw out eras/rules/pace just so you could enjoy such high stats, which wouldnt be higher than Jordans or Shaq in modern era. And when mattered the most - in the post-season, Jordan had higher PPG even disregarding pace.

Or we could look from another side - if Shaq would shoot 39.5 FGA and 17.0 FTA per game, he would average more than Wilt, hell - I could bet McHale could average more, if they played the same minutes.

I'm saying this not to diminish Wilts records, just putting them in perspective, records THEN arent equal to records NOW, this should be obvious to anyone, yet you diminish someone like Bird "oh, Wilt could do that in a month", no in the modern era he wouldnt.

Bottom line: basketball isnt about individual accomplishments, its about teams winning championships, and Wilt has nothing to be proud there, unlike certain other superstars. Like in the post above by ThaRegul8r, Russell played to win, Wilt played to stat pad.

First of all, Wilt was the ONLY guy getting 30 FGAs per game. Yes, Baylor did it ONCE. What does that tell you? Chamberlain was capable of getting his shots NO MATTER whom, or how many players were guarding him. Secondly, while some here jump on the ERA and PACE bandwagon...they ignore the LEAGUE AVERAGE. Jordan averaged 37 ppg in '87, in a league that shot .480. Chamberlain averaged .509 in a league that shot .426.

Anyone can say that had Shaq been given 39 FGAs...sure, but he struggled to get 22 in 2000. Yet, when he faced Olajuwon in the '95 Finals, Hakeem AVERAGED 30 FGAs against him! It is just not as simple as saying, give Shaq the ball 40 times and see what he could do. He couldn't get nearly that many shots, on AVERAGE, when he was at his BEST. Yet, Wilt was getting 10-12 more FGAs in HIS era, over the nearest competitor. The next highest number of FGAs by a CENTER in the 60's was by Bellamy with 23 ...in ONE season (and never 20 again.) Kareem had a couple at at 24-25 in the early 70's. Why didn't he get 40 FGAs a game?

Would Wilt get 40 FGAs in today's game? No...but adjusting for PACE and ERA, he would still average nearly 30. And once again, he was getting way more shots than anyone else in HIS era. Do you think the opposing defenses of HIS era just allowed him to shoot? My god, he was being doubled-tripled, and brutalized all game long.


And before some idiot here jumps in and says just how bad the defense was in the 60's...think about this...

Kareem had four seasons in the '70's, beginning with a .518 mark in 1970, and that included FG% marks of .539, .529, and .513. Not only that, but in three straight post-seasons against Thurmond, he shot .486, .405, and .428. In his two post-seasons against Wilt, he shot .468 and .457. His CAREER FG% against Chamberlain was .464 (Wilt shot 53% against him BTW). Not only that, but in their LAST TEN H2H games, Kareem shot .434 against Wilt. And both Wilt and Thurmond were well past their PRIMES. Now...continuing...Kareem had EIGHT seasons in the 80's in which he shot .564 or BETTER. He had his career high of .604 in the 80's, as well as shooting .599 at age 37! He had his FOUR highest FG% season in the 80's. AND, as Fatal9 pointed out, he had three straight games against Hakeem, as the oldest player in the league, in which he AVERGAGED 42 ppg!

As for the post-season, Wilt's scoring dropped much as it did during the regular season. As his surrounding talent increased, his scoring dropped. In some cases, it was his COACH that held him back. But, what is almost never mentioned here, though, is that Wilt routinely faced a HOF center in his post-season games...112 out of 160 to be exact, or 70% of the time. Yet, he STILL averaged 23 ppg, with 25 rpg, on .522 shooting in his post-season CAREER. 49 of those post-season games came against Russell and the Celtic Dynasty. 17 games against Thurmond. 11 games against Kareem. AND, in the vast majority of them, he outplayed his opposing center.

Regarding PACE and ERA...I'll post it again...

Put Wilt's 61-62 season into Jordan's 86-87 season, and reduce his FGAs and FTAs accordingly, and up his FG% (from a league that shot .426 to Jordan's .480) and Wilt would have averaged 46 ppg on about .570 shooting. Take Wilt's 61-62 season into Shaq's 2000 season, and reduce his FGAs and FTAs, and bumph up his FG% (from a league that shot .426 to one that shot .449), and he would have averaged 38 ppg on .530 shooting with nearly 19 rpg. Put Wilt's 61-62 season into 2010, and reduce his FGAs and FTAs, and bump up his FG% into a league that shot .461, and he averages 39 ppg on about .550 shooting. Yes, it takes into account Chamberlain playing 48 mpg, but it must be noted that Wilt averaged 45.2 mpg in his CAREER. Furthermore, Wilt has the top-seven seasons, in terms of MPG, in NBA history...AND, he was routinely playing 2-3 more MPG than his nearest rival. He would certainly be capable of playing that in today's much slower-paced game. Hell, in his last year, at age 36, he averaged 43 mpg.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 05:46 PM
Bottom line: basketball isnt about individual accomplishments, its about teams winning championships, and Wilt has nothing to be proud there, unlike certain other superstars. Like in the post above by ThaRegul8r, Russell played to win, Wilt played to stat pad.

Ok, so if Jordan were so great...why did he play on FIVE losing teams? Take his '85-86 post-season for example. He had a 63 point OT game, in a loss, in a series in which he shot .417, and his team was SWEPT. Now, before you argue that his Bulls team went 30-52, and that he was facing a 67-15 Celtic team with FIVE HOFers...

Wilt took the 61-62 Warriors, with essentially the same last-place roster that he joined in 1960, to a game seven, TWO-POINT loss, against the 60-20 Celtics, and their SIX HOFers. Or how about Wilt taking his 40-40 76ers in the '65 ECF's, to a game seven, ONE-POINT loss, to the 62-18 Celtics, and their FIVE HOFers?

Russell was the game's greatest "winner" to be sure. But, how come he and his 60-21 Celtic team, was CRUSHED by Wilt and his Sixers in the 66-67 playoffs. Or why did Russell only put up four points in that clinching game five loss against Wilt (and his 29 points and 36 rebounds)?

Jordan did not win ANY rings until he had the likes of Pippen, Grant, Paxson, Cartwright...and later Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, Harper, and Kukoc. His 92-83 Bulls went 57-25 and won a title. He retired, and the Bulls went 55-27 the very next year with essentially Kukoc and his 11 ppg replacing him. That Bulls team lost a close (and controversial) game seven to the Knicks, who lost a close game seven to the Rockets in the Finals.

I won't argue that Jordan was the MAIN reason that Chicago won those six rings. BUT, Wilt faced much stronger TEAMS almost EVERY year he played in the post-season. Even the Knick teams that beat his Laker teams had FOUR and SIX HOFers.

It is a TEAM game. When someone here can show me conclusively that ONE player WINS more GAMES than another...well...

Fatal9
07-07-2010, 06:00 PM
he dominated Kareem
:oldlol:

This undoubtedly refers to the '72 season:

Kareem averaged 40/15/5 on 51% in the regular season.

Kareem averaged 34/18/5 on 46% in the playoff series. Wilt averaged 11/19/3 on 45%.

But now of course the case isn't statistical, but against Russell, it is. Funny how incredibly biased this guy is. There's other lies in your post about Kareem and Jordan (for example Kareem shot 48% not 46% in '71 playoffs against him, and that was only brought down by one poor 7/23 shooting game which Bucks won in a blowout anyways). No point in correcting you point by point though. You are detached from reality, post misleading information over and over again and deflect ALL blame from Wilt. It's quite sad from a man who is apparently nearing 60. Do you need to make every thread into an agenda troll fest? Bump the countless Wilt vs. MJ, Wilt vs. Kareem threads if you want to keep posting this nonsense.

Fatal9
07-07-2010, 06:05 PM
And FYI, Wilt's TRB% floated from 19-21% in his prime (and I eliminated team rebounds when I calculated this), that equates to roughly 13-14 rpg at the 90s pace @ 40 minutes/game. This is assuming there is no affect on his game by playing in a more athletic league with physically bigger centers (especially weight wise).

OmniStrife
07-07-2010, 06:07 PM
Nash had a few 20/20 games.
He had one this year even.

at 36 that probably makes him the oldest player in history to have a 20/20 game.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 06:12 PM
:oldlol:

This undoubtedly refers to the '72 season:

Kareem averaged 40/15/5 on 51% in the regular season.

Kareem averaged 34/18/5 on 46% in the playoff series. Wilt averaged 11/19/3 on 45%.

But now of course the case isn't statistical, but against Russell, it is. Funny how incredibly biased this guy is. There's other lies in your post about Kareem and Jordan (for example Kareem shot 48% not 46% in '71 playoffs against him, and that was only brought down by one poor 7/23 shooting game which Bucks won in a blowout anyways). No point in correcting you point by point though. You are detached from reality, post misleading information over and over again and deflect ALL blame from Wilt. It's quite sad from a man who is apparently nearing 60. Do you need to make every thread into an agenda troll fest? Bump the countless Wilt vs. MJ, Wilt vs. Kareem threads if you want to keep posting this nonsense.

Since you keep posting your nonsense, regarding the '72 WCF's...and those that WITNESSED it...including a MILWAUKEE reporter...(and thanks to Regul8r BTW)...

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Kareem

Fatal9
07-07-2010, 06:19 PM
Again, your hypocrisy is hilarious.

So Wilt outplayed Kareem (I think he did in the game 6 though, especially defensively in the fourth quarter) while putting up 11/19/3 on 45% to Kareem's 34/18/5 on 46%? But, when the argument turns to Russell vs. Wilt, it's exclusively about statistics. Not looking at how Russell outplayed Wilt in key moments of games (and there are facts to back this up, not reactionary reviews), how Wilt padded his stats at the end of blowouts, how Wilt shot poorly against Redd Kerr, and so on, but despite all this, the case then is always statistical.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 06:24 PM
And FYI, Wilt's TRB% floated from 19-21% in his prime (and I eliminated team rebounds when I calculated this), that equates to roughly 13-14 rpg at the 90s pace @ 40 minutes/game. This is assuming there is no affect on his game by playing in a more athletic league with physically bigger centers (especially weight wise).

Wilt's 61 Warriors averaged 66 rpg, and his '67 76ers averaged 62 rpg. Not sure what the LEAGUE AVERAGE was, because they do include team rebounds, but Shaq's 2000 Lakers averaged 47 rpg, which do NOT include team rebounds. Chamberlain averaged 27 rpg in 61 on 47 mpg, and 24 rpg on 45 mpg in '67. Breaking it down proportionately, and Wilt in '61 would have averaged 19 rpg on the '00 Lakers (in 47 mpg), and Wilt's 67 season breaks down to 18 rpg on the 2000 Lakers in 45 mpg.

Of course in '67, Wilt was facing guys like Russell, Thurmond, Lucas, Reed, and Bellamy, NINE games EACH. Had he been able to face the likes of McCullough, Roberts, Gatling, Potapenko, Cage, Booth, Smits, Campbell, etc. etc, of the 2000 season, on a nightly basis...well, you can bet he would have grabbed much more.

Harison
07-07-2010, 06:25 PM
First of all, Wilt was the ONLY guy getting 30 FGAs per game. Yes, Baylor did it ONCE. What does that tell you? Chamberlain was capable of getting his shots NO MATTER whom, or how many players were guarding him.
So why exactly Wilt was losing those close series by few points you are so proud of? He could get his shot off against anyone... yet he didnt when it mattered the most. Thanks for proving my point.



Secondly, while some here jump on the ERA and PACE bandwagon...they ignore the LEAGUE AVERAGE. Jordan averaged 37 ppg in '87, in a league that shot .480. Chamberlain averaged .509 in a league that shot .426.
What bandwagon? Are you implying there is no pace and eras difference there? :confusedshrug: Its also sweet you take GUARDS FG% and compare those to CENTER with no range?. Do you realize how crazy it is? Lets take centers like Shaq, Kareem, or freaking PF McHale, all of them had better FG%, eFG% or TS%, regardless what you prefer.

Oh, and when Kareem averaged 34.8 PPG with 57,4%, league averaged 45.5%. Before you quote again .727, let me remind you 13 PPG isnt in the same universe as 34.8 PPG. :oldlol:



Put Wilt's 61-62 season into Jordan's 86-87 season, and reduce his FGAs and FTAs accordingly, and up his FG% (from a league that shot .426 to Jordan's .480) and Wilt would have averaged 46 ppg on about .570 shooting.

You only go halfway there, lets go all the way. Nobody would allow player to play 48 minutes today, nobody. 35-40 mins - sure. Lets look by standard PER36 min:

Wilts 61-62: 37.4/19.0, adjust pace: 28/14 with 23 FGA

Shaq 99-00: 26.7/12.3 with 19.0 FGA

Lets assume Wilt would shoot with better FG%, but not by much, when he shot 28.7, 28.5 and 25 FGA, his % was .524, .510 and .540 respectively. He went above 60% only when averaged 24 points or less.

Dont you think Shaq would erase small difference between him and Wilt if he shoots ~3 FGA more per 36 mins? It would look like 30 PPG per 36, compared to 28 PPG by Wilt. Suddenly Wilts 50 PPG season isnt THAT impressive, isnt?

Edit: adjusted pace for FGA as well.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 08:12 PM
What bandwagon? Are you implying there is no pace and eras difference there? Its also sweet you take GUARDS FG% and compare those to CENTER with no range?. Do you realize how crazy it is? Lets take centers like Shaq, Kareem, or freaking PF McHale, all of them had better FG%, eFG% or TS%, regardless what you prefer.

Oh, and when Kareem averaged 34.8 PPG with 57,4%, league averaged 45.5%. Before you quote again .727, let me remind you 13 PPG isnt in the same universe as 34.8 PPG

First of all, Wilt came into the league with a solid OUTSIDE shooting game, and he used until the mid 60's (and he used his fade-away bank shot into the 70's.)

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html

"[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70"

So, suddenly that 45 ppg on .528 shooting looks much different doesn't it? That is Olajuwon and David Robinson FG%, in their BEST seasons...and at a much higher rate of attempts.

Secondly, you conveniently dismiss Chamberlain's 66-67 season, of which I consider it his PRIME, in which he averaged 24 ppg on .683 shooting.

And yes, Kareem's 71-72 season, in which he averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting is one of the best ever. However, against Wilt in the WCF's, he shot .457 from the field. FURTHERMORE, with the series tied at 1-1, over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series, Kareem shot .414. He had the look of a deer-in-the-headlights over those four games, and watched helplessly as Wilt blocked nearly five shots of his alone, per game in that span. He was either bricking, air-balling, or watching his shots knocked all over the floor in those four games. Not only that, but the "weak" defenders of the 60's, like Thurmond, held Kareem to .405 shooting the series before.



You only go halfway there, lets go all the way. Nobody would allow player to play 48 minutes today, nobody. 35-40 mins - sure. Lets look by standard PER36 min:

Wilts 61-62: 37.4/19.0, adjust pace: 28/14 with 23 FGA

Shaq 99-00: 26.7/12.3 with 19.0 FGA

Lets assume Wilt would shoot with better FG%, but not by much, when he shot 28.7, 28.5 and 25 FGA, his % was .524, .510 and .540 respectively. He went above 60% only when averaged 24 points or less.


Congratulations. You managed to reduce Wilt's 50 ppg 25 rpg season down to HALF. Of course, that means that players like Oscar, West, Baylor, and Barry would all be around 15 ppg scorers in today's game as well. And Russell? He would be around an 11 rpg guy.

Oh, and BTW, of course YOU are able to limit Chamberlain's minutes...even though, as I stated previously, NO ONE ELSE did. Wilt was leading the league in MPG NINE times, with the TOP-SEVEN seasons in NBA HISTORY. He also was leading those leagues by 2-3 MPG almost every season. In his LAST season he averaged over 43 MPG. And, while Lebron and Iverson can average 43 MPG in the 00's...you (and other's) believe that Wilt, who is the all-time record holder by a MILE...would play less than those two???

Incidently, using your DISTORTED numbers...how about this? Take Wilt's 66-67 season, with his 24 ppg on 14 FGAs per game, and give him Jordan's 28 FGA's in 1987 ..AND increase his FG% significantly, since Jordan played in an era of .480 to .490 shooting for most of it. So, instead of shooting .683 in a league that shot .441, let's bump Wilt up to a realistic .725. So, Wilt would be making over 20 FGs per game, or 40 ppg, just on his FGAs. Give him another five on FTs...and suddenly Wilt has a 45 ppg on .725 shooting.

Is that far-fetched...especially given the fact that he would routinely be facing a stumbling clod at the center position? No more far-fetched than him averaging 28-14 in YOUR world....and of course, Oscar, West, and Barry getting their 15 ppg, too.

ThaRegul8r
07-07-2010, 08:18 PM
I am obviously a Chamberlain fan...BUT guys like you and G.O.A.T. have pointed out just how great Russell was.

I've felt it's been necessary, because it might be difficult for modern fans to understand just how great Russell was because they just look at the stats at don't think they compare to other greats. It's easy to modern day fans to be awed by Wilt, when the NBA record book might as well be labeled "The Wilt Chamberlain Story," and people could see Kareem if they look back, because he had impressive stats, but all I've heard from modern day fans is that Russell was simply a '60s Dikembe Mutombo, only smaller and more agile, which is a slap in the face and complete disrespect to one of the greatest players ever to play the game.



You also pointed out some huge offensive games by Russell, of which I did not know, but you failed to mention (although I know that you are aware of) was Russell's game seven in the '62 Finals...in which he put up a 30-40 game against the Lakers.

I actually did that deliberately. I figured most people who know who Russell is should be aware of that game. I wanted to provide some instances that people might not be aware of. Give something new, and people might look and think, "Hey, I didn't know that." I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said that Russell did whatever it took to win. No more, no less.

But about that 30-40 game, it's even more impressive when you look at the circumstances. The game was a tight one, with Boston up by six at the half, 53-47, despite Sam Jones' ice-cold 1-for-10 shooting. After three, the game was tied at 75.

Elgin Baylor was destroying them. He dropped an NBA-playoff record 61 on them in Game 5 to give LA a 3-2 lead and put Boston on the brink of elimination, and he had 41 points and 22 rebounds in Game 7. In the fourth quarter, ace defensive forward Satch Sanders fouled out trying to guard Baylor. Then Jim Loscutoff fouled out fouled out trying to guard Baylor. Then Tom Heinsohn fouled out trying to guard Baylor on Baylor's 37th and 38th points. In the opening seconds of overtime, Frank Ramsey fouled out trying to guard Baylor. Baylor fouled out THE ENTIRE CELTIC FORWARD ROTATION. Auerbach had to put 14-year veteran Carl Braun on Baylor, then reserve forward Gene Guarilia, who was LITERALLY the last guy on the bench who never played, averaging 8.2 minutes in 45 games for the season. Bob Cousy said after the game ended, "I didn't think we had much of a chance in that overtime. No matter where you are in a game, whoever controls the boards will win. And we were operating with four little men." Russell was the only big man they had left.

Then you factor in that "Hall of Famer" Heinsohn was a complete non-factor with

jlauber
07-07-2010, 08:33 PM
Again, your hypocrisy is hilarious.

So Wilt outplayed Kareem (I think he did in the game 6 though, especially defensively in the fourth quarter) while putting up 11/19/3 on 45% to Kareem's 34/18/5 on 46%? But, when the argument turns to Russell vs. Wilt, it's exclusively about statistics. Not looking at how Russell outplayed Wilt in key moments of games (and there are facts to back this up, not reactionary reviews), how Wilt padded his stats at the end of blowouts, how Wilt shot poorly against Redd Kerr, and so on, but despite all this, the case then is always statistical.

I have stated that Russell did, at times, outplay Wilt. He usually held Wilt under his normal ppg and FG% numbers. BUT, Wilt outscored Russell in EVERY post-season series... some by HUGE margins. Wilt outrebounded Russell, in EVERY post-season series...some by HUGE margins. AND, while I don't have the numbers for every post-season series between the two, I feel confident in saying that Wilt outshot Russell in EVERY post-season series...and some by HUGE margins.

Regarding the Kareem-Wilt debate. I have mentioned it before, but talk about an EMPTY stat line. Kareem's 50 point game against Wilt came in a game in which he took 40 shots, he was outrebounded by Wilt, 25-8, and his Bucks were blown-out, 123-107.

And, of course, Kareem never faced Wilt in Chamberlain's PRIME. The closest game that we can really gather any indication about how that would have gone came in their very first encounter, and before Wilt's knee injury. In that game, Chamberlain outscored Kareem, 25-23, outrebounded Kareem, 25-20, outassisted Kareem, 5-2, outblocked Kareem, 3-2, and outshot him from the field, 9-14 to 9-21. True, Kareem was just a rookie...BUT, Wilt was past his prime too, and was no longer being asked to carry a team offensively.

Furthermore, let's use Thurmond as an example. I have already mentioned Nate holding Kareem to three straight post-seasons of .486, .405, and .428, Kareem's PRIME statistical seasons. Well, Wilt NEVER shot less than 50% against Thurmond in ANY of their post-season matchups. AND, while Wilt and Thurmond only faced each other a few games in Wilt's "scoring seasons", Chamberlain had some BIG games against him. In one, he outscored Thurmond, 45-13. In another, he put up a 38-31 game. He also outrebounded Thurmond, in all three post-seasons, and in one, by nearly seven rpg.

Clearly, Wilt in his PRIME would have put up far different numbers than he did late in his career against Kareem.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 08:44 PM
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I've felt it's been necessary, because it might be difficult for modern fans to understand just how great Russell was because they just look at the stats at don't think they compare to other greats. It's easy to modern day fans to be awed by Wilt, when the NBA record book might as well be labeled "The Wilt Chamberlain Story," and people could see Kareem if they look back, because he had impressive stats, but all I've heard from modern day fans is that Russell was simply a '60s Dikembe Mutombo, only smaller and more agile, which is a slap in the face and complete disrespect to one of the greatest players ever to play the game.



I actually did that deliberately. I figured most people who know who Russell is should be aware of that game. I wanted to provide some instances that people might not be aware of. Give something new, and people might look and think, "Hey, I didn't know that." I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said that Russell did whatever it took to win. No more, no less.

But about that 30-40 game, it's even more impressive when you look at the circumstances. The game was a tight one, with Boston up by six at the half, 53-47, despite Sam Jones' ice-cold 1-for-10 shooting. After three, the game was tied at 75.

Elgin Baylor was destroying them. He dropped an NBA-playoff record 61 on them in Game 5 to give LA a 3-2 lead and put Boston on the brink of elimination, and he had 41 points and 22 rebounds in Game 7. In the fourth quarter, ace defensive forward Satch Sanders fouled out trying to guard Baylor. Then Jim Loscutoff fouled out fouled out trying to guard Baylor. Then Tom Heinsohn fouled out trying to guard Baylor on Baylor's 37th and 38th points. In the opening seconds of overtime, Frank Ramsey fouled out trying to guard Baylor. Baylor fouled out THE ENTIRE CELTIC FORWARD ROTATION. Auerbach had to put 14-year veteran Carl Braun on Baylor, then reserve forward Gene Guarilia, who was LITERALLY the last guy on the bench who never played, averaging 8.2 minutes in 45 games for the season. Bob Cousy said after the game ended, "I didn't think we had much of a chance in that overtime. No matter where you are in a game, whoever controls the boards will win. And we were operating with four little men." Russell was the only big man they had left.

Then you factor in that "Hall of Famer" Heinsohn was a complete non-factor with

bomber
07-07-2010, 08:48 PM
Mark Blount is missing.

jlauber
07-07-2010, 08:56 PM
And FYI, Wilt's TRB% floated from 19-21% in his prime (and I eliminated team rebounds when I calculated this), that equates to roughly 13-14 rpg at the 90s pace @ 40 minutes/game. This is assuming there is no affect on his game by playing in a more athletic league with physically bigger centers (especially weight wise).

I have already disputed these numbers in an above post...but I do like to point out one of Wilt's finest games...

To put it in perspective, I found to be what I believe is Shaq's best post-season rebounding game (if not his best, one of them.) Against the Pacers in the one of the 2000 Finals games, in 46 minutes, he grabbed 24 rebounds, out of a TOTAL of 125.

Well, Chamberlain, at age 35, playing with TWO badly injured wrists (both swollen and heavily bandaged)...in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals, collected 29 rebounds, in 47 minutes, out of a TOTAL of 106. Not only that, but his 29 rebounds nearly matched the ENTIRE Knick team, which had 39.

All ANYONE really needs to know about Wilt's rebounding is that he outrebounded EVERYBODY. He dominated the NBA in rebounding like no one else ever has. As further testament, he outrebounded Russell, who is certainly among the greatest rebounders ever (#2 all-time), by over FIVE rpg in their 142 H2H meetings. He had post-seasons in which he averaged over 30 rpg (and several post-seasons over 27.) He also had a post-season series in which he outrebounded Russell, 32-23, per game.

Now, the "current experts" on this forum can concoct all the numbers they want. If some believe he would be getting 14 rpg (which is utterly absurd BTW), we have no way of really knowing. BUT, we do KNOW that Chamberlain crushed his peers like no player in NBA history....especially if you factor in the post-season.

Fatal9
07-07-2010, 09:02 PM
Regarding Russell's 30/40 in game 7 and the performance of his teammates...

We actually have footage of most of the second half:

Part 1 of 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bwfV8BFl1A

I

Fatal9
07-07-2010, 09:22 PM
To put it in perspective, I found to be what I believe is Shaq's best post-season rebounding game (if not his best, one of them.) Against the Pacers in the one of the 2000 Finals games, in 46 minutes, he grabbed 24 rebounds, out of a TOTAL of 125.
Out of a total of 93, not 125. Why do you always post so much misinformation, seriously. Here's the boxscore even: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006090LAL.html.


Well, Wilt NEVER shot less than 50% against Thurmond in ANY of their post-season matchups.

Again, quit posting misleading information. Wilt didn't shoot below 50% because he averaged 12.1 ppg against him the three times they faced off. Each time, Wilt was well below his regular scoring numbers as it dropped dramatically, -6.4 ppg in '67 (or by 27%), -8.5 ppg in '69 (by 41%), -5.2 ppg in '73 (by 39%). And his FG% dropped at least 12+% in every series. If he had to take the volume of shots Kareem did, we'd be seeing some pretty awful playoff series from him (especially when you factor in his horrendous FT shooting as well). The greatest scoring playoff series against Thurmond belongs to Kareem who averaged 28 ppg on 49% against him in '71 playoffs.

This is why there is no point in responding to you. You post incorrect, misleading, biased information over and over again. It's a waste of time, you have a couple of essays saved in notepad and keep posting them in every thread you can find (always completely derailing them, like here). It's actually gotten quite a few posters annoyed of Wilt on here...seriously, take a break and act your (alleged) age.

jlauber
07-08-2010, 12:44 AM
Out of a total of 93, not 125. Why do you always post so much misinformation, seriously. Here's the boxscore even: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006090LAL.html.



Again, quit posting misleading information. Wilt didn't shoot below 50% because he averaged 12.1 ppg against him the three times they faced off. Each time, Wilt was well below his regular scoring numbers as it dropped dramatically, -6.4 ppg in '67 (or by 27%), -8.5 ppg in '69 (by 41%), -5.2 ppg in '73 (by 39%). And his FG% dropped at least 12+% in every series. If he had to take the volume of shots Kareem did, we'd be seeing some pretty awful playoff series from him (especially when you factor in his horrendous FT shooting as well). The greatest scoring playoff series against Thurmond belongs to Kareem who averaged 28 ppg on 49% against him in '71 playoffs.

This is why there is no point in responding to you. You post incorrect, misleading, biased information over and over again. It's a waste of time, you have a couple of essays saved in notepad and keep posting them in every thread you can find (always completely derailing them, like here). It's actually gotten quite a few posters annoyed of Wilt on here...seriously, take a break and act your (alleged) age.

Try this box score...

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/2000.htm

Game two...59 and 66 totals rebounds...125 TOTAL

INDIANA MN FG-FGA FT-FTA 0R DR RB AS PF ST TO BL PTS
Davis 34 4-9 1-1 4 6 10 1 6 0 0 2 9
Rose 48 10-23 10-14 1 8 9 1 3 1 2 1 30
Smits 16 2-6 0-0 1 1 2 2 5 0 0 0 4
Jackson 29 2-9 1-2 0 9 9 8 4 2 1 0 7
Miller 36 7-16 6-6 0 2 2 4 4 0 0 0 21
Croshere 25 6-15 12-12 4 2 6 1 4 1 0 2 24
Perkins 24 2-5 0-0 0 3 3 1 6 1 0 0 6
Best 19 0-3 2-2 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 2
McKey 6 0-1 1-2 2 1 3 1 2 0 1 0 1
Tabak 3 0-1 0-0 1 0 1 0 3 0 0 0 0
Team
TOTALS 33-88 33-39 13 33 59 19 38 5 6 5 104
3-PT: Jackson 2-7, Perkins 2-4, Miller 1-5, Croshere 0-2, Rose 0-1, Best 0-1

L.A. MN FG-FGA FT-FTA 0R DR RB AS PF ST TO BL PTS
Green 15 2-4 0-0 3 1 4 1 1 0 1 0 4
Rice 35 7-15 2-2 0 4 4 3 4 0 1 0 21
O’Neal 46 11-18 18-39 5 19 24 4 5 0 2 3 40
Bryant 9 1-3 0-0 0 1 1 4 1 0 0 1 2
Harper 37 8-12 4-5 0 3 3 6 4 0 3 0 21
Horry 33 2-6 3-4 1 5 6 1 5 0 1 4 7
Shaw 32 1-9 2-2 1 2 3 7 1 1 0 0 4
Fisher 16 2-4 1-2 0 0 0 3 1 0 0 0 6
Fox 15 2-3 2-3 1 1 2 0 4 1 1 0 6
Salley 1 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Knight 1 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Team
TOTALS 36-75 32-57 11 36 66 29 26 3 10 8 111
3-PT: Rice 5-6, Harper 1-2, Fisher 1-1, Shaw 0-3, Horry 0-2, Bryant 0-1

Indiana 28 21 20 35 104
Los Angeles 28 24 21 38 111
A- 18,997


Evidently it does include team rebounds....

Regarding the Thurmond-Wilt battles, their playoff battles took place after Chamberlain's scoring seasons.

But still, thanks to Julizaver, we KNOW that Chamberlain had a 45-13 game on him in the mid-60's.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340&page=6

"I try some google searching - it seems that Wilt's high scoring game against Nate is from 1965-66 season - 45 points against 13 for Thurmond. There is a game from that season in which Wilt scored 62 points and grabbed 37 rebounds against Warriors, but Nate was missing with back injury."

On 11-27-65 Wilt had a 38-31 game against the Warriors. On 12-26-65, Wilt had a 33-30 game against the Warriors. And on 3-3-66 Wilt had a 62-37 game against the Warriors. We know that Thurmond missed the 62-37 game, and eight others, (he played in 73 out of 82 games.) Unfortunately I can't verify which games Thurmond missed.

Here are some more games between Wilt and the Warriors...

http://www.apbr.org/wilt.html


11/4/66 30 points
11/24/66 27 points
2/4/67 23 points
3/2/67 24 points
3/14/67 21 points
4/18/67 26 points (Finals)
4/24/67 24 points (Finals...clinching win.)

1/19/68 20 points
2/27/68 33 points

2/2/69 23 points
3/31/69 22 points (playoffs)


As for his playoff numbers vs Thurmond...courtesy Julizaver...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340&page=4

1967 NBA Finals (6 games):
Wilt Chamberlain - 17.7 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg 56 % FG
Nate Thurmond - 14.2 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 3.3 apg 34,3 % FG

1969 NBA WC playoffs (6 games)
Wilt Chamberlain - 12.0 ppg, 23.5 rpg, 3.0 apg 50 % FG
Nate Thurmond - 16.7 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 4.7 apg 39,2 % FG

1973 NBA WC playoffs (5 games)
Wilt Chamberlain - 8.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.0 apg 55 % FG
Nate Thurmond - 15.8 ppg, 17.2pg, 4.2 apg 39,8 % FG

-----------------------------------------------------

1971 NBA WC playoffs (5 games)
Kareem A.Jabbar - 27.8 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 0.4 apg, 48.6 %FG, 39.2 min W
Nate Thurmond - 17.6 ppg, 10.2rpg, 3 apg, 37.1 %FG, 38.4 min L

1972 NBA WC playoffs (5 games)
Kareem A.Jabbar - 22.8 ppg, 18.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 40.5 %FG, 47.8 min W
Nate Thurmond - 25.4 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 43.4 %FG, 46.0 min L


1973 NBA WC playoffs (6 games)
Kareem A.Jabbar - 22.8 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 42.8 %FG, 46.0 min L
Nate Thurmond - 13.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.2 apg, 39.7 %FG, *** W


Clearly, Thurmond gave BOTH of them defensive problems...but what we don't know is how well a "scoring" Wilt fared against Thurmond. In his only two scoring seasons, from 64-65 thur 65-66, he put up several 30+ ppg games (including a KNOWN 45 point game against Thurmond), and several 30 rpg games(including a KNOWN 38 rebound game against Thurmond in the '67 Finals.)

In any case, those that claim that there was no defense played in the 60's (like yourself) fail to acknowledge that Kareem STRUGGLED MIGHTILY against two of the top-three defensive centers of the 60's...and both were past their primes. And, I suspect that Russell, and his Celtic teams, would have given Kareem a TON of trouble as well.

PHILA
07-08-2010, 02:45 AM
Bill Sharman briefly comparing Russell, Chamberlain, & Thurmond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJdSJQvwpIY#t=02m05s