Redrafting the 2012 NBA Draft

[Magic bird]

If your team had the chance to redo the draft, Who would you draft differently?

For me,
Celtics select Jared Sullinger (#21)
and select Festus Ezeli (#22)
Rather than Fab Melo, though its too early to tell, Festus Ezeli has really carved out a role for the warriors as a rebounder and block specialist and averages 4 rebounds and 1 block over 16 minutes per game.

[andremiller07]

There were two reasons Sully went so low one is cause of his back issues and the other was people didn't know how his game would translate into the NBA while being a good player in college. If he stays injury free than yeah teams will be kicking themselves.

Austin Rivers should have been a mid-late 2nd round pick at best

[AngelEyes]

If your team had the chance to redo the draft, Who would you draft differently?

For me,
Celtics select Jared Sullinger (#21)
and select Festus Ezeli (#22)
Rather than Fab Melo, though its too early to tell, Festus Ezeli has really carved out a role for the warriors as a rebounder and block specialist and averages 4 rebounds and 1 block over 16 minutes per game.

I thought you were going to redo the lottery, if not the entire first round. Disappointed with your lack of commitment.

[b0bab0i]

No one since clippers traded away all first round draft picks.
We drafted some dude named Furkan Aldemir at 53rd. Dont know who the hell he is though.

[brooks_thompson]

Rudy Gay + the Tony Wroten pick for Bradley Beal and a future unprotected 1st.

[bdreason]

I would have taken Drummond over Barnes. I like Barnes, but Drummond on this Warriors squad would be magical. He's exactly what we need, and Bogut could teach him how to play D and pass.

[magic chiongson]

royce white :D

[Pushxx]

Players like Fab Melo are projects. He will be a solid NBA contributor as soon as next year. That's pretty amazing to find that in a center at pick #22.

Plus he's one of the most mobile 7 footers around. A mobile 7 footer than can block shots has a lot of value and potential in today's NBA.

[IGotACoolStory]

If redrafting is being done, Drummond is probably gone before 6.

NOH - Davis
Cats - Lillard - Even with Kemba, can't pass up that kind of talent.
Wiz - Drummond? Beal? MKG? - I heard they really wanted MKG.
Cavs - Drummond? Beal? MKG? - Beal probably? Although the rumors about trading Varejao...
Kings - Drummond? Beal? MKG? - Drummond and move DMC to the 4, which he could play well at.

[brandonislegend]

The Lakers should have took scott machado instead of djo. I think he is available now, dude is nice.

[RedBlackAttack]

If redrafting is being done, Drummond is probably gone before 6.

NOH - Davis
Cats - Lillard - Even with Kemba, can't pass up that kind of talent.
Wiz - Drummond? Beal? MKG? - I heard they really wanted MKG.
Cavs - Drummond? Beal? MKG? - Beal probably? Although the rumors about trading Varejao...
Kings - Drummond? Beal? MKG? - Drummond and move DMC to the 4, which he could play well at.
If the Cavs preferred Waiters to Beal prior to the draft, what has changed over the first 40 games to drastically change their minds?

Dion Waiters
30.8 minutes
14.2 points (37.3% FG, 78.2% FT, 31.1% 3PT)
3.2 assists
2.5 rebounds
1.2 steals
2.0 turnovers

Brad Beal
31.5 minutes
13.2 points (36.2% FG, 81.6% FT, 32.4% 3PT)
2.6 assists
3.7 rebounds
1.0 steals
1.6 turnovers


:confusedshrug:



Reports after the draft -- namely the one issued by Windhorst who was embedded in the Cavs' war room -- stated that the Cavs' board looked like this... 1. Davis, 2. Waiters, MKG, 3. Everybody else (they knew either MKG or Waiters would be there).

The real interesting thing would have been if both MKG and Waiters were on the board.

[andremiller07]

If redrafting is being done, Drummond is probably gone before 6.

Kings - Drummond? Beal? MKG? - Drummond and move DMC to the 4, which he could play well at.

OMFG that would have been the move to make and JT off the bench Kings got a athletic/skilled frontcourt for the next decade, if only tho if only.

[Magic bird]

Rudy Gay + the Tony Wroten pick for Bradley Beal and a future unprotected 1st.
:eek:

[Suckafree]

Pistons had a gem fall into their lap.

After watching Drummond play in college I thought he had no shot of becoming a consisten player on this level. Boy was I wrong, I love everything about the kids game so far. Plays like a true bigman. The issues brought up about his questionable motor were put to rest like 2 games into the season.

This guy is a star in the making

[IGotACoolStory]

If the Cavs preferred Waiters to Beal prior to the draft, what has changed over the first 40 games to drastically change their minds?


Don't want to quote the entire thing because it will clog up the page...

But because GMs are now drafting with some perspective on how the player fits in the NBA?

I don't think many people whom have objectively watched both will say they prefer Waiters over Beal. Nevermind fit for the team (which I think Beal fits better too), just purely as a basketball talent, Beal appears more well rounded with more upside. To me at least.

To gain perspective on where I see the two:
-imo, Beal is a fringe all-star talent. Good starting SG in the NBA.
-Waiters is a 4th, maybe 5th option who needs the ball likes he's a top two option. High and inefficient scorer on a bad team. Very good 6th man on a championship caliber squad.

:confusedshrug: Perhaps I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, but it's what I see right now.

[brandonislegend]

Don't want to quote the entire thing because it will clog up the page...

But because GMs are now drafting with some perspective on how the player fits in the NBA?

I don't think many people whom have objectively watched both will say they prefer Waiters over Beal. Nevermind fit for the team (which I think Beal fits better too), just purely as a basketball talent, Beal appears more well rounded with more upside. To me at least.

To gain perspective on where I see the two:
-imo, Beal is a fringe all-star talent. Good starting SG in the NBA.
-Waiters is a 4th, maybe 5th option who needs the ball likes he's a top two option. High and inefficient scorer on a bad team. Very good 6th man on a championship caliber squad.

:confusedshrug: Perhaps I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, but it's what I see right now.

I concur, Beal would be a better fit next to Kyrie imo.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

If the Cavs preferred Waiters to Beal prior to the draft, what has changed over the first 40 games to drastically change their minds?

Dion Waiters
30.8 minutes
14.2 points (37.3% FG, 78.2% FT, 31.1% 3PT)
3.2 assists
2.5 rebounds
1.2 steals
2.0 turnovers

Brad Beal
31.5 minutes
13.2 points (36.2% FG, 81.6% FT, 32.4% 3PT)
2.6 assists
3.7 rebounds
1.0 steals
1.6 turnovers


:confusedshrug:



Reports after the draft -- namely the one issued by Windhorst who was embedded in the Cavs' war room -- stated that the Cavs' board looked like this... 1. Davis, 2. Waiters, MKG, 3. Everybody else (they knew either MKG or Waiters would be there).

The real interesting thing would have been if both MKG and Waiters were on the board.
You put Beal on that Cavs team and he puts up much better numbers then the pedistrian numbers Waiters puts up next to Kyrie Irving. You put Waiters on the Wiz team without John Wall and they probably have 2-3 wins right now.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't think many people whom have objectively watched both will say they prefer Waiters over Beal. Nevermind fit for the team (which I think Beal fits better too), just purely as a basketball talent, Beal appears more well rounded with more upside. To me at least.
To be fair, how many people have seen enough of both players to accurately make that kind of assessment? I know I haven't seen enough of Beal to say how his career will project and how he may fit on a completely different team in a completely different situation.

Hell, I'm not even sure we are to point with these rookies where these kinds of sweeping prognostications are even possible.

With that said...


To gain perspective on where I see the two:
-imo, Beal is a fringe all-star talent. Good starting SG in the NBA.
-Waiters is a 4th, maybe 5th option who needs the ball likes he's a top two option. High and inefficient scorer on a bad team. Very good 6th man on a championship caliber squad.

:confusedshrug: Perhaps I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, but it's what I see right now.

Again, haven't seen enough of Beal to even hypothesize on where his ceiling is, but -- having seen every game for Waiters -- his ceiling is pretty damn high, I think. Now, whether he will reach it? Who knows.

But, he has an amazing first step and that's something which can't be taught. It seems a bit odd to me that Beal, who is supposed to be such a far superior shooter, still hasn't proven to be one either on the collegiate or professional level yet.

Their efficiency right now, both in terms of overall floor game and from behind the arc, are very similar... Almost exactly the same.

Time will tell, but I don't think there is any way in the world the Cavs' board would change at this point if there was a re-do. Nor do I think the Cavs are discouraged with what Dion has shown thus far. His numbers actually stack up well with the others 2s taken in this draft and he has absolutely massive room for improvement.

:confusedshrug:

[RedBlackAttack]

You put Beal on that Cavs team and he puts up much better numbers then the pedistrian numbers Waiters puts up next to Kyrie Irving. You put Waiters on the Wiz team without John Wall and they probably have 2-3 wins right now.
Conjecture and speculation. It could also be argued that Waiters on the Wizards could allow him to serve as the primary ball-handler and inflate his statistics as a result, as opposed to having to be relegated to the offense initiator only when Kyrie wants to take a possession off.

That argument works both ways.

Even in his current limited playmaking role on the Cavs, Waiters has shown an ability to create for others on a relatively regular basis. Is Beal even the primary ball-handler in Washington? If so, why only 2.6 assists per game? If not, why not... Considering they are a team completely lacking in playmakers on the perimeter.

[El Kabong]

There were two reasons Sully went so low one is cause of his back issues and the other was people didn't know how his game would translate into the NBA while being a good player in college. If he stays injury free than yeah teams will be kicking themselves.

Austin Rivers should have been a mid-late 2nd round pick at best
Isn't the first guy it's happened to either. DeJuan Blair slid to the 2nd round cause teams were scared off by his knees and guys like Millsap and Boozer were 2nd round picks because teams thought they wouldn't be big enough for the NBA.

[bdreason]

Millsap in the 2nd round was nonsense. Guy led NCAA in rebounding for 3 years, and probably would have made it 4 if he didn't join the NBA. You don't look past that kind of talent because he isn't 6'10".

[Magic bird]

Isn't the first guy it's happened to either. DeJuan Blair slid to the 2nd round cause teams were scared off by his knees and guys like Millsap and Boozer were 2nd round picks because teams thought they wouldn't be big enough for the NBA.
Not to mention Isaiah Thomas....

[RedBlackAttack]

You put Beal on that Cavs team and he puts up much better numbers then the pedistrian numbers Waiters puts up next to Kyrie Irving. You put Waiters on the Wiz team without John Wall and they probably have 2-3 wins right now.
And, one last thing in relation to this post... We actually do have a series of games which shows how Waiters performs without Irving.

Kyrie was hurt Nov. 18 against the Sixers. He didn't come back until Dec. 11 against the Lakers. That means he missed 11 games. Waiters played in seven of those 11 games before suffering an injury of his own.



Here is how Waiters did without Kyrie...

Nov. 21 @ Sixers: 16 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 turnovers
Nov. 23 @ Magic: 25 points, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
Nov. 24 @ Heat: 16 points, 2 assists, 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 turnover
Nov. 26 @ Grizzlies: 15 points, 3 assists, 0 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 27 vs Suns: 16 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 30 @ Hawks: 21 points, 7 assists, 1 rebound, 4 turnovers
Dec. 1 vs Blazers: 12 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 turnovers

Waiters' Averages Without Irving
7 games
35.9 minutes
17.3 points (34.0% FG, 28.3% 3PT, 88% FT)
5.3 assists
2.4 rebounds
1.4 steals
2.0 turnovers


Of course, this is only a seven game sample, but that was a difficult stretch of games, five of which were on the road. Waiters was asked to be the primary playmaker on a team whose best player was out and he put up 17.3 points, 5.3 assists and just 2 turnovers a night. That isn't bad for a 20-year-old rookie in a tough spot.

Look, I'm not making any definitive statements about either Waiters or Beal or anyone else. Actually, my point is that you can't at this stage... Especially when you start talking about switching around the variables.

[brandonislegend]

Conjecture and speculation. It could also be argued that Waiters on the Wizards could allow him to serve as the primary ball-handler and inflate his statistics as a result, as opposed to having to be relegated to the offense initiator only when Kyrie wants to take a possession off.

That argument works both ways.

Even in his current limited playmaking role on the Cavs, Waiters has shown an ability to create for others on a relatively regular basis. Is Beal even the primary ball-handler in Washington? If so, why only 2.6 assists per game? If not, why not... Considering they are a team completely lacking in playmakers on the perimeter.

It's much easier playing next to one of the best PG in the league then playing next to Shelvin Mack.

[brandonislegend]

And, one last thing in relation to this post... We actually do have a series of games which shows how Waiters performs without Irving.

Kyrie was hurt Nov. 18 against the Sixers. He didn't come back until Dec. 11 against the Lakers. That means he missed 11 games. Waiters played in seven of those 11 games before suffering an injury of his own.



Here is how Waiters did without Kyrie...

Nov. 21 @ Sixers: 16 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 turnovers
Nov. 23 @ Magic: 25 points, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 0 turnovers
Nov. 24 @ Heat: 16 points, 2 assists, 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 turnover
Nov. 26 @ Grizzlies: 15 points, 3 assists, 0 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 27 vs Suns: 16 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 turnovers
Nov. 30 @ Hawks: 21 points, 7 assists, 1 rebound, 4 turnovers
Dec. 1 vs Blazers: 12 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 turnovers

Waiters' Averages Without Irving
7 games
35.9 minutes
17.3 points (34.0% FG, 28.3% 3PT, 88% FT)
5.3 assists
2.4 rebounds
1.4 steals
2.0 turnovers


Of course, this is only a seven game sample, but that was a difficult stretch of games, five of which were on the road. Waiters was asked to be the primary playmaker on a team whose best player was out and he put up 17.3 points, 5.3 assists and just 2 turnovers a night. That isn't bad for a 20-year-old rookie in a tough spot.

Look, I'm not making any definitive statements about either Waiters or Beal or anyone else. Actually, my point is that you can't at this stage... Especially when you start talking about switching around the variables.

Those numbers are impressive other than the %'s

[RedBlackAttack]

It's much easier playing next to one of the best PG in the league then playing next to Shelvin Mack.
Kyrie Irving is NOT a great playmaking point guard at this stage of his career, though. He is a great scoring point guard. His playmaking is coming along and he shows flashes, but let's not act like Waiters is playing with Rondo or CP3 out there.

[RedBlackAttack]

Those numbers are impressive other than the %'s
And even the percentages aren't far off of what Beal is doing.

[El Kabong]

Millsap in the 2nd round was nonsense. Guy led NCAA in rebounding for 3 years, and probably would have made it 4 if he didn't join the NBA. You don't look past that kind of talent because he isn't 6'10".
I never understand how some teams are weird with this. They won't draft a guy who can obviously play because he's not 6'10, or his vert isn't a certain amount, but they'll take wild lottery pick fliers on guys who have displayed much just because they're athletic freaks.


Not to mention Isaiah Thomas....
Just the most recent example out there.

[brandonislegend]

Kyrie Irving is NOT a great playmaking point guard at this stage of his career, though. He is a great scoring point guard. His playmaking is coming along and he shows flashes, but let's not act like Waiters is playing with Rondo or CP3 out there.

He demands the whole defenses attention

[RedBlackAttack]

He demands the whole defenses attention
That doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for a perimeter teammate whose current best attributes are his ability to handle the ball and use his great first step to set-up dribble drives or pull-up jumpers.

You could argue that this is why Beal would be better opposite Kyrie, but Beal still has yet to show he is a significantly better outside shooter than Waiters.... and I'm not just talking about the first 1/3 of this season. He didn't show it at Florida, either.

Plus, this argument may have merit if Waiters hadn't arguably performed better when Irving was out of the lineup. Give it some time. Let these guys figure out how to play with one another. Doesn't happen overnight. Waiters is still very raw, which is actually a good thing in this case.

[alexthegr8]

You could argue that this is why Beal would be better opposite Kyrie, but Beal still has yet to show he is a significantly better outside shooter than Waiters.... and I'm not just talking about the first 1/3 of this season. He didn't show it at Florida, either.


You aren't taking into consideration the fact that Beal is about a year and a half younger than Waiters when comparing shooting percentages in college. Beal's freshman numbers, while not meeting the hype associated with him coming out of college, were essentially Waiters' numbers as a sophomore and significantly better than Waiters' numbers as a freshman. Beal shot the ball wayyyy better in the second half of last season at Florida once he acclimated himself to the college level and shot the ball extremely well in the SEC tournament and the NCAA tournament. The issue for him is that he left school after his freshman season just as he was beginning to justify his high school projections and basically started the process over again. Remember, at the beginning of the season he was the fourth youngest player in the entire league iirc, and the youngest sg ever to start an opening day nba game in the history of the league. Since the start of January he's shooting 50 % from 3, looking far more comfortable out there, and he's about to play with a talented pg that can create better looks for him on a more consistent basis.

Point is, I think there is growing empirical evidence that Beal is going to develop into a better shooting option that Waiters based on their age specific production and projection, and on top of that, Beal has a way more consistent, sound, repeatable shot form than Waiters which usually portends greater consistency.

[Whoah10115]

The Bobcats never choose Lillard. Kemba is not a lesser talent and he's two years younger. That would be an awful move for the team. Awful.



There's a good possibility that Jordan chooses the player he's most in love with, in Harrison Barnes. Of course, MKG has shown he's completely worth a selection, but Barnes does have a higher ceiling and it's clear he's made for the NBA. Plus, it's the guy Jordan wanted. I still don't get why he didn't choose him. He got lucky. I think Kidd-Gilchrist is showing quality that people wouldn't quite expect.

[RedBlackAttack]

You aren't taking into consideration the fact that Beal is about a year and a half younger than Waiters when comparing shooting percentages in college. Beal's freshman numbers, while not meeting the hype associated with him coming out of college, were essentially Waiters' numbers as a sophomore and significantly better than Waiters' numbers as a freshman. Beal shot the ball wayyyy better in the second half of last season at Florida once he acclimated himself to the college level and shot the ball extremely well in the SEC tournament and the NCAA tournament. The issue for him is that he left school after his freshman season just as he was beginning to justify his high school projections and basically started the process over again. Remember, at the beginning of the season he was the fourth youngest player in the entire league iirc, and the youngest sg ever to start an opening day nba game in the history of the league. Since the start of January he's shooting 50 % from 3, looking far more comfortable out there, and he's about to play with a talented pg that can create better looks for him on a more consistent basis.

Point is, I think there is growing empirical evidence that Beal is going to develop into a better shooting option that Waiters based on their age specific production and projection, and on top of that, Beal has a way more consistent, sound, repeatable shot form than Waiters which usually portends greater consistency.

Don't get me wrong, I expect Beal to become the better professional jumpshooter. And, let me make something else clear... I liked Beal a lot coming out of Florida and I still do (although there are a few things that concern me, at this stage).

As for Waiters in his freshman year at Syracuse, it was somewhat of a disaster. He had major problems with the coaching staff and nearly transferred out, before being coaxed back. This -- attitude issues -- is actually my greatest fear when it comes to Dion, not anything he can or can't do on the court. Although, most of his issues seem to stem from a massive amount of confidence, which isn't necessarily a bad trait.

The only thing I'm pointing out are the inconsistencies between what is perceived to be the case and the reality right now... Which is what this thread is about. So far in their careers, Waiters has been scoring more in less MPG on slightly (very slightly) higher efficiency. And, he averages more assists per game despite playing alongside a pretty ball-dominant point guard.

As to what he has shown on the floor, Waiters has an extraordinary first step. This is something a guy either has or he doesn't. Waiters has it and I believe that is one of the major reasons why he was basically hand-picked by Byron Scott. Other good attributes are his build (strong with a big frame that can move bigger players and take punishment) and playmaking skills (much better than I realized prior to seeing him on this level).

He needs to really work on finishing at the rim amongst the trees. I think an in-between floater type of shot would really help his game. Too often, he tries to get all the way to the rim and that option isn't there a lot of the time in the NBA. The other thing is consistency on his jumpshot. Right now, he is the classic hot/cold guy. When he's on, he has unlimited range and can hit the most difficult off-balance, turnaround 25-footer. When he's off, it may brick off the side of the backboard.

But, the good news is that his issues are fixable and some of them are just due to a lack of experience.


I'm sure Beal is encountering a lot of the same issues and that's why his FG% is what it is. However, they aren't really similar players at all. Beal does not have the kind of first step that Waiters does or really anything close, from what I've seen. I also haven't seen the same ability to be a playmaker for others out of Beal. Maybe that is something which will come in time, or maybe I'm just not catching him on good nights.

Regardless, and more to the point of the thread, I really don't think there is anything that has happened in the first 40 games which would so drastically change the Cavs FO minds that it would flip from someone they were/are so high on in Waiters and go with Beal. That was the point.

[Salazaar]

I'm stunned no one put Lillard as the no 1 pick... Kid's the real deal...

[RedBlackAttack]

Well, I guess I chose the right day to throw some love Waiters' way.

Tonight against the Kings...

Dion Waiters
29 minutes
33 points on 12-18 FG, 3-3 3PT, 6-8 FT
5 assists
2 rebounds
0 turnovers


His highlights to come...

[GatorKid117]

I would draft Drummond #1.

[Magic bird]

I'm stunned no one put Lillard as the no 1 pick... Kid's the real deal...
This. Blazers got themselves a steal

[InspiredLebowski]

I'm stunned no one put Lillard as the no 1 pick... Kid's the real deal...Lillard's stellar, but what's his ceiling? Obviously he can get better, but how much? I'm honestly asking, haven't seen much of Portland.

[RedBlackAttack]

Lillard is a very nice player, but he's 22 and I'm not sure how much better he's going to get. Anthony Davis is still just 19 and has looked pretty damned good in his limited play so far this year.

Also, Davis plays a position completely devoid of talent in the NBA, whereas Lillard plays by far the most competitive position in the league.

Davis would still be the pick.

[Magic bird]

Lillard's stellar, but what's his ceiling? Obviously he can get better, but how much? I'm honestly asking, haven't seen much of Portland.

His four years at Weber State were very well spent. When he's on the court, he looks like he is in absolute control, he has range and can consistently make 3's unlike other streaky guards. He has quickness that allows him to take it to the hoop and the strength to finish through contact.

He reminds me of a Chris Paul-esque player who is clutch (Game winners against multiple teams) He is quick enough which allows him to not be beat of the dribble but is'nt the best perimeter defender.

He is unselfish but is'nt an assist padder, he will do what the team needs him to do and do it well.

His ceiling? Judging by his evolution in college, i think this kid could be a star (Couple of All Star competitions, first team selections) and be a consistent scoring threat while dishing out 6-8 assists per night.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sm_XbEh_Vo
Game winner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaPpgDpa9w
Bballbreakdown explains why he deserves to be rookie of the year

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Damian-Lillard-6152/stats/
His draftexpress profile

[NuggetsFan]

Lillard is doing alot for Portland. Making big shots, taking over etc. when I've watched him play. The fact that he's doing what he's doing on a competitive Portland team has to be pretty telling as well. Alot of times we see guy's throw up numbers on squads because they are simply forced into that role. Lillard is doing big things on a team that could very well end up in the playoffs, or will atleast fight for it down the stretch. I think that's a pretty big positive. I think if he was in New Orleans or somewhere fighting in the lottery you'd probably see him scoring more.

Already has 5 double double's and his assists appear to be climbing as the season goes on. I haven't seen that true PG threat but he does seem like he has a little more potential in that area than some of the other scoring PG's that have came in.

Besides Davis, I don't think you take anybody else infront of him. He may be older but at the very least will probably get better as he becomes more consistently assertive. Not even averaging 16 shots a game, already have a 18/6 type player. It's not like he's extremely polished either, def area's where he could improve. That along with how he's stepped up, I don't think you pass that up because he's like a year or two older than somebody.