has there ever been a greater combination of amazing shooter and dunker than durant?

[therammingman]

??

[BrickingStar]

MJ


nah he sucked LBJ

[Derivative]

Michael "Goat" Jordan

[elementally morale]

Jordan was not an amazing shooter. Not even close.

[therammingman]

Jordan was not an amazing shooter. Not even close.

i thought the same thing

[Derivative]

i thought the same thing

Jordan was the goat midrange shooter, maybe not 3 point shooter

[Figlo]

Young Ray Allen

[Noob Saibot]

in before someone says Kobe. :durantunimpressed:

[therammingman]

Young Ray Allen


was he a great shooter at that time?

[kNicKz]

Vince Carter could shoot/dunk very well

[KOBE143]

Jordan was not an amazing shooter. Not even close.
this

Jordan was more of slasher than a shooter..

Btw my answer to this question is none other than the Black Mamba Gawdbe in his primes and its not even close..

Even current Kobe is up there with Durant..

[konex]

Prime VC and T-Mac

[Rake2204]

Vince Carter could shoot/dunk very wellYup. And by no means is that a suggestion that Vince Carter as a player equals Durant. It's just VC had some 40% three point shooting years (and is a 37% career three point shooter), had a deadly mid-range game and put together the best dunking career of any NBA player in the history of the game, so I don't think it's crazy to bring him to mind in this case.

[Budadiiii]

He's the best I've seen since Russell Westbrook

[hateraid]

Dan Majerle
Eddie Jones
Allan Houston
Robert Horry

[kNicKz]

Yup. And by no means is that a suggestion that Vince Carter as a player equals Durant. It's just VC had some 40% three point shooting years (and is a 37% career three point shooter), had a deadly mid-range game and put together the best dunking career of any NBA player in the history of the game, so I don't think it's crazy to bring him to mind in this case.

Exactly

[therammingman]

Dan Majerle - i didn't see enough of his prime.
Eddie Jones - great dunker but not as feared a shooter
Allan Houston - not as great a dunker
Robert Horry - perhaps some validity here although he was more feared late in games and only 3s, not midrange, etc.

[Micku]

Young Ray Allen is probably the closest in terms of efficiency. He could dunk, shoot from anywhere on the floor, and the closest to Durant at the FT lines.

You have others like MJ when he was good with the 3pt shot and Kobe.

T-Mac and Vince Carter are the lesser tier IMO, because of their FTs shooting are not up to par.

And then LeBron this year, but his FTs percentage are even worse.

But none of them are better than Durant. Durant has the best shooting stroke on the 3pt line, anywhere on the floor and FTs.

[Magic bird]

Bucks and Sonics Ray Allen dunked on T-Mac

[TheBigVeto]

in before someone says Kobe. :durantunimpressed:

Kobe is not a great shooter and not a great dunker.
Not in his prime, not right now, not ever.

[therammingman]

Kobe is not a great shooter and not a great dunker.
Not in his prime, not right now, not ever.

he was a great dunker in his prime

[BrickingStar]

he was a great dunker in his prime
above average not great

[therammingman]

above average not great

he wasn't VC but he was great

[Rake2204]

Young Ray Allen is probably the closest in terms of efficiency. He could dunk, shoot from anywhere on the floor, and the closest to Durant at the FT lines.

You have others like MJ when he was good with the 3pt shot and Kobe.

T-Mac and Vince Carter are the lesser tier IMO, because of their FTs shooting are not up to par.

And then LeBron this year, but his FTs percentage are even worse.

But none of them are better than Durant. Durant has the best shooting stroke on the 3pt line, anywhere on the floor and FTs.I suppose it'd depend upon whether we're just talking about players who were amazing shooters could dunk at all (thus more or less eliminating J.J. Redick, aside from his one Duke jam) or whether we're talking about players who were both amazing shooters and amazing dunkers, thus creating an amazing combination. I came into this thread thinking it was the latter.

As such, I feel a guy like Vince Carter would still be top-of-the-tier valid because, say he's just not quite as good a free throw shooter as Durant, I believe he'd more than make up for that discrepancy with his #1 all-time dunking ability, hence creating a mix of a very, very good shooter and absolutely legendary dunker.

It'd kind of break down like this for me, if we wanted to overly simplify things:

Dan Majerle: Great Shooter/Poor Dunker (I know he was Thunder Dan but if we're real, he's not an all-time dunker). As such, he's got the shooting accounted for, but not so much the dunking.

Kevin Durant: Great Shooter/Pretty darn good dunker. This is a great mix.

Vince Carter: Great Shooter but not quite as good as Durant/Best Dunker of all-time. Still comes out to a great mix.

If I wanted to put it succinctly, I think the gap between Durant's dunking ability and Carter's is wider than Durant's shooting ability and Carter's.

[Magic bird]

Kobe is not a great shooter and not a great dunker.
Not in his prime, not right now, not ever.

:biggums:

[therammingman]

Bucks and Sonics Ray Allen dunked on T-Mac

i don't think allen was as deadly a shooter back then

[elementally morale]

Dale Ellis.

[CAstill]

Lol at the haters
Of course Kobe
Anyone denying it is in denial lol

[hateraid]

John Starks
JR Smith
Baron Davis

[Micku]

I suppose it'd depend upon whether we're just talking about players who were amazing shooters could dunk at all (thus more or less eliminating J.J. Redick, aside from his one Duke jam) or whether we're talking about players who were both amazing shooters and amazing dunkers, thus creating an amazing combination. I came into this thread thinking it was the latter.

As such, I feel a guy like Vince Carter would still be top-of-the-tier valid because, say he's just not quite as good a free throw shooter as Durant, I believe he'd more than make up for that discrepancy with his #1 all-time dunking ability, hence creating a mix of a very, very good shooter and absolutely legendary dunker.


I guess it depends on what you mean on shooting really.

Just from the 3pt line? Then Vince Carter would have it in the bag imo. But in overall all around shooting display? IMO, I think Ray Allen is the closest to it or young Kobe or MJ. While he was not the dunker that Carter was, Ray Allen was still a good dunker when he was younger in his Buck days. I guess it depends on how much you value shooting because you can say VC dunks was more spectacular and his shooting was enough to pass it by as you said.

[chazzy]

Jordan was the goat midrange shooter, maybe not 3 point shooter
Just maaaybe :lol

[Magic bird]

i don't think allen was as deadly a shooter back then
Still Deadly, but not as consistent nor as quick.

[therammingman]

John Starks
JR Smith
Baron Davis

Fck no

[sbw19]

Largely forgotten but this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGre3_c4G0w) deserves a mention as well. None in addition score as effortlessly though, KD is just bionic in that regard.

[therammingman]

Largely forgotten but this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGre3_c4G0w) deserves a mention as well. None in addition score as effortlessly though, KD is just bionic in that regard.


i remember reading that he was thinking of making a comeback

[28renyoy]

Jason Richardson deserves mention

[talamo]

Kobe is not a great shooter and not a great dunker.
Not in his prime, not right now, not ever.

slam dunk champ is not a great dunker :lol

[sbw19]

i remember reading that he was thinking of making a comeback

He doesn't have much left, but he could mentor some of the younger teams, and maybe pursue a career in coaching a la Brian Shaw.

[arifgokcen]

Many players was just as good as durant in those two regards.However none did it better because none of the player were above 6'6 or have a larger wingspan than most centers.

You have to understand what makes durant so good is his size not just his skills.

I watch durant and everytime he wants to get a shot off its a clean look.Its amazing how high his release is.Thats why nobody in the league can slow him down.Only player who could stop him would be prime kevin garnett and try to pay attention when he dunks he barely jumps.

[FKAri]

Jason Richardson deserves mention

Surprised no one mentioned this.

[MMM]

Does KG deserve mention???

He is one of the greatest big man shooters and in his athletic prime was good at throwing it down with authority.

[Kblaze8855]

fans and coaches were mentioning Michael Jordan as one of the best shooters in the NBA after the 80s. no one ever has or will consider the Durant among the best dunkers in the world. Michael Jordan not being a great shooter is a modern assumption. he was not a great outside shooter. But people didn't start judging shooting just by threes till like 2000.

you could find articles with people flatout calling Michael Jordan the best shooter in the NBA.

That said Vince is the obvious answer. And Kobe too. Again....shooting its not just from distance. Kobe is one of the best tough shot makers in the history of the game. And he happens to have 30 foot range as well. bigger gap between prime Kobe or Vince Carter to him as dunkers than Durant to them as shooters.

on the vast majority of usable court space Kobe in his prime is about as likely to make a shot from wherever he happens to be as anyone in the history of basketball. Durant is clearly more likely as you get farther away from the basket.....but its not like shooting was invented with the the point line or that most shots have been taken from there so why is that the only or even main consideration?

I'd say Durant compares pretty well to Michael Finley. both spectacular with power dunks one handed in traffic but not a lot of variety. I'd say mike jumped higher and finished with more power more consistently. but Kevin is a level or 2 up as a shot creator and maker of difficult shots. especially contested long range shots at which he may have 3 or 4 peers in the history of the game none of them being Finley.

[KeyNote]

my player on 2K13 :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[iamgine]

Durant's an amazing shooter but to call him an amazing dunker though? :no:

[Kblaze8855]

I'd say he's capable of a bit more than he shows in the league. I've seen him do some nice things in the summer and in the little lock out games. No more them Tayshaun prince though. I've seen them both to do windmils and quick through the legs dunks.....and go get some poorly thrown lobs and dunk in traffic.

[T-Time3]

prime Tracy McGrady
/thread

[pauk]

Michael Jordan, he was a great shooter (not an expert 3pt shooter) but yea..

Ray Allen aswell, was even in the dunk contest.

[pauk]

prime Tracy McGrady
/thread

Not an "amazing" shooter, T-Mac was not even a better & more consistant shooter than Lebron.

[RoseCity07]

Prime Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant come to mind.

[bizil]

When I think of amazing shooters, I think of guys with a great touch from deep in three point territory and who parlay into being great scorers. So those are guys like Bird, Dirk, Durant, West, Ray Ray, Peja, Dale Ellis, Rice, Nash, Price, Reggie. Thunder Dan was a great shooter, but not really a great scorer or could turn alpha dog like Price or Nash so I don't count him. Guys like Vince and T-Mac were very good 3ball shooter at best, but I don't classify them as great shooters. They are guys who are "amazing athletes" first who happen to be very good shooters along with it. A guy like MJ is a great midrange shooter, arguably the best of all time. But MJ was not a great three point shooter.

So amongst the guys who are the "great shooters from anywhere", I think Durant does indeed have the best dunking and slashing game. After that u gotta go Ray Allen. Those two far and away stand out from the pack. It's what made Ray stand out when he first got to the L. Ray back then was a guy legitimately who could be in a three point shootout with a great chance to win any year AND do very good things in a dunk contest. And Durant at 6'10 or 6'11 is doing epic monumental shit.

[Rake2204]

When I think of amazing shooters, I think of guys with a great touch from deep in three point territory and who parlay into being great scorers. So those are guys like Bird, Dirk, Durant, West, Ray Ray, Peja, Dale Ellis, Rice, Nash, Price, Reggie. Thunder Dan was a great shooter, but not really a great scorer or could turn alpha dog like Price or Nash so I don't count him. Guys like Vince and T-Mac were very good 3ball shooter at best, but I don't classify them as great shooters. They are guys who are "amazing athletes" first who happen to be very good shooters along with it. A guy like MJ is a great midrange shooter, arguably the best of all time. But MJ was not a great three point shooter.

So amongst the guys who are the "great shooters from anywhere", I think Durant does indeed have the best dunking and slashing game. After that u gotta go Ray Allen. Those two far and away stand out from the pack. It's what made Ray stand out when he first got to the L. Ray back then was a guy legitimately who could be in a three point shootout with a great chance to win any year AND do very good things in a dunk contest. And Durant at 6'10 or 6'11 is doing epic monumental shit.Again though, if we're matching a high level of shooting with a high level of dunking, players like Vince Carter would still be right at the top of the list because as excellent as players like Allen and Durant are at shooting, I think Carter is equally as excellent at dunking. And on the other side, I think Carter's shooting is at least as good as Ray Allen and Kevin Durant's dunking, in terms of relativity to the rest of the NBA players throughout history at those respective aspects of the game.

If we were to assign a number between 1-10 for each category, maybe it'd look like this (with no serious thought given, just throwing out numbers to help illustrate the point):

Kevin Durant: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Ray Allen: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Vince Carter: Dunking: 10, Shooting: 8

In that super non-scientific example, everyone's coming out to the same total. People could shift things one way or another just a tiny bit (ex: I think someone could, if they wanted to, argue that Durant and Allen are 7 dunkers or 9 dunkers. I also feel someone could make the case for Carter being a 7 shooter or a 9 shooter) but generally, that's how I see the comparisons.

[Kblaze8855]

When I think of amazing shooters, I think of guys with a great touch from deep in three point territory and who parlay into being great scorers. So those are guys like Bird, Dirk, Durant, West, Ray Ray, Peja, Dale Ellis, Rice, Nash, Price, Reggie. Thunder Dan was a great shooter, but not really a great scorer or could turn alpha dog like Price or Nash so I don't count him.




A guy like MJ is a great midrange shooter, arguably the best of all time. But MJ was not a great three point shooter.





So amongst the guys who are the "great shooters from anywhere",

A lot of 3 point shooters arent great from anywhere. Dale Ellis or MJ as midrange shooters is MJ. Same for MJ vs Ray Allen in a game. Perhaps not shooting around but really...shooting around neither is gonna miss. Jordan probably made more midrange jumpers some seasons than Peja made field goals period in some of his prime years.

Granted some of it was people playing off for fear of the drive but a lot of Reggie and Ray Allens midrange jumpers are off pump fakes from deep that got guys off their feet allowing them an open 18 footer.

For whatever reason....MJ made midrange jumpers at a rate maybe 2-3 guys you listed could.

If being a great 3 point shooter is what being a great shooter is....how is Jerry West even on the list? No doubt he made some long range shots but you watch him play....hes not doing much of it. And why would he? Its a bad shot when its still just 2 points. Hell its often a bad shot when its 3 points.

Only considering long range shooters great shooters is just punishing good shot selection.....and totally disregarding that most basketball wasnt played with a 3 point line.

Michael Jordan came into the NBA before college even had a 3 point line. Does that mean that no matter how hard he or someone from his time worked they couldnt be great shooters till they hit the NBA unless they played in the ABA with the line?

Sam Jones, Rick Barry, and Bill Bradley with their crazy shooting drills and performances(Rick Barry once scored 64....and only took 4 FTs...without a 3 point line). Can they not be amazing shooters because they didnt have the 3? Barry shot like shit from 3 when he did have it in the ABA and for a year or two in the NBA. So he cant be an amazing shooter to you?


Serious questions by the way no matter how mockingly I may have worded them.

[Dro]

Good discussion....I agree with Kblaze and Rake, can't even remember if they're making the same point, lol...But honestly, I may go with MJ....MJ never had a great 3 point percentage but honestly, it seems like he always made big 3 pointers under pressure. Like Kblaze said, a 3 pointer is a low percentage shot so why punish good shot selection. I could see if MJ NEVER demonstrated the ability to shoot from 3 at all but thats clearly not the case. I felt like MJ could make a shot from anywhere on the floor just like Kobe. Don't you feel the same when you watch MJ?
Other than that, I may go with Kobe or Vince. But I don't feel Vince is a GREAT shooter, like Reggie Miller or Dale Ellis. He's above average but not a better shooter than Ray Allen or even T-Mac for that matter, imo...But he's by far the greatest dunker ever so that could give him the edge...

[bizil]

Some of u guys are REALLY making the question more difficult. The poster said AMAZING SHOOTER! That right there eliminates VC, T-Mac, MJ, Kobe, etc. The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!

Therefore u START with AMAZING SHOOTERS AND WORK YOUR WAY DOWN THE LIST! Jerry West was ALWAYS known an an amazing shooter. I know he didn't have a three point line, but West was ALWAYS pulling from deep. A pure shooter is a pure shooter from midrange and three ball. Another thing is pure shooters are ALWAYS epic at catch and shoot. In addition to that, many of them create great off the dribble into their three point shot. That's what makes KD devastating. He can catch and shoot with the best AND use the dribble to work his way into the three ball great. Ray Allen and point guards like Price, Curry, and Nash are the same but shorter.

A pure shooter is a pure shooter. If u call guys like Vince, MJ, or Kobe PURE SHOOTERS I gotta question you bball acumen. Once u saw AMAZING SHOOTER in the question, u should have ELIMINATED guys like Kobe, MJ, or VC IMMEDIATELY!!! Look at it like this, would u want MJ in a role roaming the three point line and being a specialist like Ray Ray is now. HELL NO! Durant is such an amazing shooter that he can fill that three point specialist role if he had to. However, he's capable of scoring in so many more ways that u don't want to limit him to just that. So if u CAN'T picture a guy being a three point specialist for a team then HE AINT AN AMAZING THREE POINT SHOOTER!!! Great scorers like Durant, Bird, or Ray just happen to be amazing shooters on that can devastate and carry a team. Three point specialists like Novak, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges, or Korver CAN'T carry a team and are way more limited.

[KungFuJoe]

None of those other guys were 6'11" nor did they play for the OKC Thunder so I don't see how they can possibly compare to Durant.

[Kblaze8855]

The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!




So....in what world is a midrange jumper not shooting? And why have I not heard of it before now?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc7vxckxRh1r47wsdo1_500.gif


What exactly is happening there if not shooting?

Is it a layup? Dunk?

What is he doing right there?

[bizil]

A lot of 3 point shooters arent great from anywhere. Dale Ellis or MJ as midrange shooters is MJ. Same for MJ vs Ray Allen in a game. Perhaps not shooting around but really...shooting around neither is gonna miss. Jordan probably made more midrange jumpers some seasons than Peja made field goals period in some of his prime years.

Granted some of it was people playing off for fear of the drive but a lot of Reggie and Ray Allens midrange jumpers are off pump fakes from deep that got guys off their feet allowing them an open 18 footer.

For whatever reason....MJ made midrange jumpers at a rate maybe 2-3 guys you listed could.

If being a great 3 point shooter is what being a great shooter is....how is Jerry West even on the list? No doubt he made some long range shots but you watch him play....hes not doing much of it. And why would he? Its a bad shot when its still just 2 points. Hell its often a bad shot when its 3 points.

Only considering long range shooters great shooters is just punishing good shot selection.....and totally disregarding that most basketball wasnt played with a 3 point line.

Michael Jordan came into the NBA before college even had a 3 point line. Does that mean that no matter how hard he or someone from his time worked they couldnt be great shooters till they hit the NBA unless they played in the ABA with the line?

Sam Jones, Rick Barry, and Bill Bradley with their crazy shooting drills and performances(Rick Barry once scored 64....and only took 4 FTs...without a 3 point line). Can they not be amazing shooters because they didnt have the 3? Barry shot like shit from 3 when he did have it in the ABA and for a year or two in the NBA. So he cant be an amazing shooter to you?


Serious questions by the way no matter how mockingly I may have worded them.

If u read my post, I said MJ has arguably the best midrange game of all time. But most of the great three point marksman who are also great scorers usually have great midrange games too. If anything they can run screens and catch and shoot. Or take a dribble or two and create. MJ could do that and had the footwork, fakes, freak athletic ability, etc. to create an epic midrange game.

But once again, would u want MJ fufilling a three point specialist role, or really focus on shooting threes. NO! A guy like Durant can do that and so much more from midrange and slashing. So u don't want to limit KD to just that. But KD can be a three point specialist because he's an AMAZING SHOOTER. And when the Thunder go small, he's the ULTIMATE STRETCH PF! MJ and Kobe I wouldn't even consider for a three point specialist role. KD has the pure stroke from deep to do that in addition to his other epic scoring talents.

[tpols]

"Great shooters" are guys close or at the 40/50/90 club. MJ wasnt a great shooter. So yes, Durant is probably the best dunker/shooter ever

[bizil]

So....in what world is a midrange jumper not shooting? And why have I not heard of it before now?

Everybody knows when u thing amazing shooter, u think three point shooting as a huge part of that. If u asked NBA experts whose the most amazing shooter in the L right now, he will say guys like Durant, Dirk, Ray, Curry etc. Or in terms of guys who perform strictly as specialist, he would say Novak or Korver. When u hear the term pure shooter or amazing shooter, most bball fans think of guys like Durant, Bird, Mullin, Reggie, etc. When u think MJ or Kobe, u think of guys who have the most complete scoring skillsets. As great as Durant is at shooting, I think Kobe, MJ, and Melo actually have more complete scoring skillsets. Even though KD has a great scoring skillset as well.

[Dro]

Some of u guys are REALLY making the question more difficult. The poster said AMAZING SHOOTER! That right there eliminates VC, T-Mac, MJ, Kobe, etc. The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!

Therefore u START with AMAZING SHOOTERS AND WORK YOUR WAY DOWN THE LIST! Jerry West was ALWAYS known an an amazing shooter. I know he didn't have a three point line, but West was ALWAYS pulling from deep. A pure shooter is a pure shooter from midrange and three ball. Another thing is pure shooters are ALWAYS epic at catch and shoot. In addition to that, many of them create great off the dribble into their three point shot. That's what makes KD devastating. He can catch and shoot with the best AND use the dribble to work his way into the three ball great. Ray Allen and point guards like Price, Curry, and Nash are the same but shorter.

A pure shooter is a pure shooter. If u call guys like Vince, MJ, or Kobe PURE SHOOTERS I gotta question you bball acumen. Once u saw AMAZING SHOOTER in the question, u should have ELIMINATED guys like Kobe, MJ, or VC IMMEDIATELY!!! Look at it like this, would u want MJ in a role roaming the three point line and being a specialist like Ray Ray is now. HELL NO! Durant is such an amazing shooter that he can fill that three point specialist role if he had to. However, he's capable of scoring in so many more ways that u don't want to limit him to just that. So if u CAN'T picture a guy being a three point specialist for a team then HE AINT AN AMAZING THREE POINT SHOOTER!!! Great scorers like Durant, Bird, or Ray just happen to be amazing shooters on that can devastate and carry a team. Three point specialists like Novak, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges, or Korver CAN'T carry a team and are way more limited.
The question has too many variables. Your explanation can be turned right back around against you. He also said AMAZING dunkers, so that basically eliminates anyone not named VC or MJ. But then we wouldn't get a clear cut answer if we just did it like would we? Same thing with West, he's not an amazing dunker so basically the answer to this question would be NOBODY in history has been an AMAZING DUNKER AND SHOOTER. Ray Allen is an above average dunker, he's not AMAZING. Or actually, given my definition, Jason Richardson may be closest thing to the right answer but then again he's not an amazing shooter either...

[bizil]

So....in what world is a midrange jumper not shooting? And why have I not heard of it before now?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc7vxckxRh1r47wsdo1_500.gif


What exactly is happening there if not shooting?

Is it a layup? Dunk?

What is he doing right there?

Taking it too far bro! Once again I SAID MJ HAS ARGUABLY THE GREATEST MIDRANGE GAME OF ALL TIME! Your video proves MY POINT THANKS BRO! LMBAO!!!

The OP said AMAZING SHOOTING! He didn't clarify, so u gotta assume shooting meaning from anywhere. When u think amazing shooting, MJ isn't the first name that comes up UNLESS it's MIDRANGE SHOOTING. SHOOTING IN GENERAL, which is what the OP is implying, is a guy like KD, Bird, Dirk, Mullin, Reggie, Peja, etc. PURE SHOOTING! If u don't know the difference, I gotta question your BBALL IQ!!

[Kblaze8855]

Everybody knows when u thing amazing shooter, u think three point shooting as a huge part of that. If u asked NBA experts whose the most amazing shooter in the L right now, he will say guys like Durant, Dirk, Ray, Curry etc.


Bold is key. Right now....every nba player grew up shootings threes. Most of the history of the game....that isnt the case. The questions is....has there ever....

Meaning...all time considered. Not. Right now. And all time considered....unless....time began in like 1998...we HAVE to consider people who didnt shoot threes.

And to clear something up for you....im just old enough that I remember when "amazing shooter" meant.....the ability to make open midrange shots. I remember when guys like Jordan, Kevin Johnson, and so on were called improved outside shooters....because they could make pullup jumpers.

So no....everyone doesnt think shooting is about 3s. Just many people who dont remember the league being full of great shooters who didnt take many of them.

[bizil]

The question has too many variables. Your explanation can be turned right back around against you. He also said AMAZING dunkers, so that basically eliminates anyone not named VC or MJ. But then we wouldn't get a clear cut answer if we just did it like would we? Same thing with West, he's not an amazing dunker so basically the answer to this question would be NOBODY in history has been an AMAZING DUNKER AND SHOOTER. Ray Allen is an above average dunker, he's not AMAZING. Or actually, given my definition, Jason Richardson may be closest thing to the right answer but then again he's not an amazing shooter either...

Once again, amazing shooting eliminates many guys automatically. Which means u are selecting from the pure shooters. So u r looking for the closest match. KD is a pure shooter with enough facials and impressive dunks to take the crown. He may not be amazing or Ray Allen either. But both as u said are above average dunkers and come the closest. Now when MJ, Kobe, or VC is hot from three (which we have seen) then it's then clearly. But the post said AMAZING SHOOTERS and MJ, Kobe, and VC are AUTOMATICALLY out of the equation. Gotta give the edge to KD given his pure shooting.

[Rake2204]

Some of u guys are REALLY making the question more difficult. The poster said AMAZING SHOOTER! That right there eliminates VC, T-Mac, MJ, Kobe, etc. The amazing shooter part eliminates many guys who are very good three points shooters who happen to have AMAZING MIDRANGE, AMAZING POSTUP, AMAZING SLASHING, and AMAZING DUNKING!

Therefore u START with AMAZING SHOOTERS AND WORK YOUR WAY DOWN THE LIST! Jerry West was ALWAYS known an an amazing shooter. I know he didn't have a three point line, but West was ALWAYS pulling from deep. A pure shooter is a pure shooter from midrange and three ball. Another thing is pure shooters are ALWAYS epic at catch and shoot. In addition to that, many of them create great off the dribble into their three point shot. That's what makes KD devastating. He can catch and shoot with the best AND use the dribble to work his way into the three ball great. Ray Allen and point guards like Price, Curry, and Nash are the same but shorter.

A pure shooter is a pure shooter. If u call guys like Vince, MJ, or Kobe PURE SHOOTERS I gotta question you bball acumen. Once u saw AMAZING SHOOTER in the question, u should have ELIMINATED guys like Kobe, MJ, or VC IMMEDIATELY!!! Look at it like this, would u want MJ in a role roaming the three point line and being a specialist like Ray Ray is now. HELL NO! Durant is such an amazing shooter that he can fill that three point specialist role if he had to. However, he's capable of scoring in so many more ways that u don't want to limit him to just that. So if u CAN'T picture a guy being a three point specialist for a team then HE AINT AN AMAZING THREE POINT SHOOTER!!! Great scorers like Durant, Bird, or Ray just happen to be amazing shooters on that can devastate and carry a team. Three point specialists like Novak, Steve Kerr, Craig Hodges, or Korver CAN'T carry a team and are way more limited.Dro pretty much hit the nail on the head above me. Your reasoning here seems to be more, "Who's the best shooter of all-time who was capable of making a slam dunk?" In that case, we may as well have just called the thread, "Who's the greatest shooter of all-time?" because 99.999% of NBA basketball players can and have been able to dunk.

However, I thought the uniqueness of this thread was the idea of finding a player who was pretty great at shooting while also being pretty great at dunking. As such, even an amazing shooter like Larry Bird would probably not find himself in this conversation. He might have been a 10 out of 10 shooter, but he was a 1 or 2 dunker. It doesn't seem like we're just looking for the best shooter ever or best player, those topics have all been done to death.

I'm guessing this thread came about because a great shooter (Durant) has been making a dent lately with a few of his slams too, thus begging the question - who else in history has been able to shoot folks out while also being able to slam better than most others in history and again and that is why players like Vince Carter seem to have a place in this discussion. On one hand he's proven he's capable of doing things such as hitting 8 consecutive three points shots in one half of a playoff game without missing (while shooting 37% from the arc for his career). On the other hand, he's a better dunker than any NBA player that ever existed. That's a solid combination.


Once again, amazing shooting eliminates many guys automatically. Which means u are selecting from the pure shooters. So u r looking for the closest match. KD is a pure shooter with enough facials and impressive dunks to take the crown. He may not be amazing or Ray Allen either. But both as u said are above average dunkers and come the closest. Now when MJ, Kobe, or VC is hot from three (which we have seen) then it's then clearly. But the post said AMAZING SHOOTERS and MJ, Kobe, and VC are AUTOMATICALLY out of the equation. Gotta give the edge to KD given his pure shooting.This all could be a matter of grammatical misinterpretation then. It seemed like the thread starter meant amazing shooter and amazing dunker and used just one "amazing" to eliminate title redundancy by saying "amazing" twice when one would work just as well.

In that case, if it's about both being an amazing shooter and amazing dunker and you're only willing to accept the absolute top of the line guys, then we'd be at an impasse altogether. Guys like Vince Carter are not as amazing at shooting as Kevin Durant. But then guys like Kevin Durant are not nearly as amazing at dunking as Kevin Durant.


"Great shooters" are guys close or at the 40/50/90 club. MJ wasnt a great shooter. So yes, Durant is probably the best dunker/shooter everGreat dunkers are players who have shown an ability to dunk off both one foot and two feet with great power while holding the ability to complete a vast array of different dunk variations in any number of game situations. Two hand 360's in traffic, high rising windmills, incredible posters... all of that together and more. By that definition, Kevin Durant isn't a great dunker. So yes, Vince Carter is probably the best dunker/shooter ever...

I'm kidding, that's not my real argument. My point was just to illustrate how one part of the equation is not being treated equally here. If it's just a matter of finding a great shooter who dunked okay, then again, why not just call it "Who's the best shooter of all-time?" If we want to know who was able to do both at a very high level, then we have to account for who could do both at a very high level, not just talk about those who shot great and dunked alright.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and Chris Mullin made 23 threes and shot under 25% on them in his highest scoring season. Chris Mullin is an all time great shooter. And it isnt because of threes. He could shoot threes....but it wasnt what made him.

[Jolokia]

My man George Gervin.

[joshwake]

Your criteria is a little off.

There has never been a player with Durant's size, ball handling and shooting skill.

[bizil]

I think the question is a bit confusing because there has NEVER been an amazing shooter and amazing dunker in one. I mean if u take the best of both worlds, it would be like combining MJ and Reggie Miller together at SG. Or Nique and Bird together. Or Kemp and Dirk at PF together. All of these guys are the cream of the crop in terms of dunking or shooting.

So let's take some of the freak athlete scoring machines historically in NBA History:

MJ
Kobe
Nique
Bron
Dr. J
David Thompson
T Mac
Vince Carter
D Wade
Baylor

These guys to me standout in that regard. Of that group who is the most amazing shooter (including three point range of course)? I think it comes down to Kobe, TMac, and Vince using this criteria. So it this is your criteria then I can live with either of those three.

Now let's take the pure shooters that stroke it from deep but are still great scorers:

Ray
KD
Bird
Dirk
Rice
Peja
Ellis
Price
Nash
Reggie
Curry
West

Of this group, BY FAR Durant and Ray are the best dunkers. It ain't even close at all. Between Durant and Ray, I will take KD. So by this criteria it's KD hands down. So all in all, I could roll with KD, Vince, Kobe, or T Mac given the criteria.

[bizil]

Oh and Chris Mullin made 23 threes and shot under 25% on them in his highest scoring season. Chris Mullin is an all time great shooter. And it isnt because of threes. He could shoot threes....but it wasnt what made him.

Never said that's what made Mullin. Just like it didn't make Bird, Durant, Dirk, etc. But Mullin was still classified as an AMAZING SHOOTER! He scored other ways and areas of course. That's why he was a great scorer and alpha dog all those years. Mully could perform the sniper pure shooter role easily and roam outside the three ball line. But Mully could do MUCH MORE! A guy like Kobe or MJ I don't want being that sniper that guy because they aren't PURE SHOOTERS when you throw in the 3ball. Inside the three ball line, MJ and Kobe are amazing at EVERY FACET of scoring. And they are damn good, at time great from 3 ball. But neither is a pure shooter that could be your designated sniper from deep if that's what the role required. And frankly, why would u want Kobe or MJ doing that anyway.

[Micku]

Again though, if we're matching a high level of shooting with a high level of dunking, players like Vince Carter would still be right at the top of the list because as excellent as players like Allen and Durant are at shooting, I think Carter is equally as excellent at dunking. And on the other side, I think Carter's shooting is at least as good as Ray Allen and Kevin Durant's dunking, in terms of relativity to the rest of the NBA players throughout history at those respective aspects of the game.

If we were to assign a number between 1-10 for each category, maybe it'd look like this (with no serious thought given, just throwing out numbers to help illustrate the point):

Kevin Durant: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Ray Allen: Dunking: 8, Shooting: 10
Vince Carter: Dunking: 10, Shooting: 8

In that super non-scientific example, everyone's coming out to the same total. People could shift things one way or another just a tiny bit (ex: I think someone could, if they wanted to, argue that Durant and Allen are 7 dunkers or 9 dunkers. I also feel someone could make the case for Carter being a 7 shooter or a 9 shooter) but generally, that's how I see the comparisons.

He isn't as good as Ray Allen with shooting. He doesn't have Allen's mid range nor his FT ability. But I agree with the rest of the list in the argument that you make.

Carters dunking is great and probably the best, but IMO I would think Ray Allen's shooting is greater than his dunking ability because of his all around shooting game. From mid-range, 3pt shot, to FTs. Back then Ray Allen could dunk it in your face, but wasn't stellar like Carter. I still think he is the closest.

MJ and Kobe, imo, have the best all around and you can argue for those guys as well. They are better dunkers than Ray Allen, and have a respectable shooting display, better than Carter to me.

None of them are as good as Durant tho.

[Kblaze8855]

Never said that's what made Mullin. Just like it didn't make Bird, Durant, Dirk, etc. But Mullin was still classified as an AMAZING SHOOTER! He scored other ways and areas of course. That's why he was a great scorer and alpha dog all those years. Mully could perform the sniper pure shooter role easily and roam outside the three ball line. But Mully could do MUCH MORE! A guy like Kobe or MJ I don't want being that sniper that guy because they aren't PURE SHOOTERS when you throw in the 3ball. Inside the three ball line, MJ and Kobe are amazing at EVERY FACET of scoring. And they are damn good, at time great from 3 ball. But neither is a pure shooter that could be your designated sniper from deep if that's what the role required. And frankly, why would u want Kobe or MJ doing that anyway.

You said:



When u hear the term pure shooter or amazing shooter, most bball fans think of guys like Durant, Bird, Mullin, Reggie, etc. When u think MJ or Kobe, u think of guys who have the most complete scoring skillsets.


Michael Jordan made more threes in 1990 than Mullin did in any season on the Warriors and did so on a better percentage than Mullin ever did in his prime. He was injured and slowed down before he had the bigtime shooting seasons. And by "Bigtime" I mean the most he ever made would be the 6th most Lebron has made. And Lebron supposedly cant even shoot.

Chris Mullin and MJ scored from similar places for the most part. Same for Bird. In different ways but pretty much 18 feet and in. But you tell me you think of amazing outside shooters and list guys who didnt even shoot from outside....and not get why id list an all time great midrange shooter as an amazing shooter?

Bird, Mullin, and pretty much everyone considered a great shooter....who was drafted before like 1988...WERE MIDRANGE SHOOTERS. They had range. MJ had range. MJ was athletic enough to not fall back on that as he aged. He just became better midrange.

Perception may be that Mullin and Bird types were gunners from deep. Reality is....Josh Smith made more threes in 2011 than Bird did in 7 years.

They were shooters yes...midrange shooters. With range. But it wasnt what they did. None of those old guys except maybe Dale Ellis.

Dirk, Mullin, Bird, West, and so on....midrange shooters with range. More range than MJ usually? Yes. But only 2 of them were nearly as dangerous shooting around the basket and midrange. Nobody else you mentioned is terribly close.

Shooting is shooting. If you are all time great in any particular area id say "amazing" is fair. Which is why a lot of guys who didnt take many threes are known as amazing shooters. Chris Mullin for one.

[Teanett]

i got one for you:

clyde drexler!!!

47/32/79 shooter and a dunking virtuoso.

[Rake2204]

He isn't as good as Ray Allen with shooting. He doesn't have Allen's mid range nor his FT ability. But I agree with the rest of the list in the argument that you make.Ha, I read the bold of my own quote and got scared. I couldn't believe I'd say something like that. But then I read the rest of the sentence and realized maybe I just made a grammatical error. The meaning of my sentence was actually, "Carter's shooting is equal to the dunking abilities of both Allen and Durant." Meaning, Carter's a pretty darn good shooter and Allen and Durant either were or are pretty darn good dunkers. Carter's not among the absolute cream of the shooting crop and Allen and Durant are not among the absolute cream of the dunking crop.

[alleykat]

t-mac....

steven francis? Penny and Hill would've been if not for injury

[Rake2204]

t-mac....

steven francis? Penny and Hill would've been if not for injuryIn his short peak, I'd say McGrady would be a pretty solid choice. He loved rifling from mid-range and in his best years, his 3pt. % was pretty solid (though outside his three best years, that three point number drops dramatically).

As far as Francis, Penny, and Grant Hill go though, I never found any of them to be even borderline elite shooters. Whereas I believe an argument could be made that the likes of Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady were at least on the fringe of being elite shooters (even if their accuracy was a little bit below the mega tier), I find Francis and company to be at least one other shooting level beneath VC and cousin. Steve, Anfernee and Grant could score, but it most often did not come from having the lights shot out.

[Micku]

Ha, I read the bold of my own quote and got scared. I couldn't believe I'd say something like that. But then I read the rest of the sentence and realized maybe I just made a grammatical error. The meaning of my sentence was actually, "Carter's shooting is equal to the dunking abilities of both Allen and Durant." Meaning, Carter's a pretty darn good shooter and Allen and Durant either were or are pretty darn good dunkers. Carter's not among the absolute cream of the shooting crop and Allen and Durant are not among the absolute cream of the dunking crop.

Oh ok. I thought it was pretty weird seeing the rest of your post.

[memetherapy]

There clearly is no definite objective answer to this question. What level of dunking is equivalent to what level of shooting? And then...dunking and shooting itself has subjective elements...like type of dunking and shooting. I think it's important to split up shooting and dunking into types...

Shooting ability (50) = Off the dribble shooting (25) + Spot-up shooting (25)

You can then even split each of those into 3pt + midrange shooting...but I won't , since they're normally pretty similar and I have a hard time judging how much each should be valued. If I were to suggest some value, I'd value spot-up 3pt shooting more than spot-up 2 point shooting...and the reverse for Off the dribble shooting.

As for dunking, I think nastiness and flashiness are distinct parts of being a great dunker. Nastiness involves facials and such, while flashiness is windmills, alleyoops, what have you...

So, Dunking ability (50) = Nastiness (25) + Flashiness (25)

I think dividing this up like this...will help reduce confusion as to why many of you disagree.

So...let's judge some obvious candidates (in their primes)...

Michael Jordan
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 20 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 25 + 20 = 45
Overall = 90

Vince Carter
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 20 + 20 = 40
Dunking = N + F = 25 + 25 = 50
Overall = 90

Kevin Durant
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 25 = 50
Dunking = N + F = 20 + 15 = 35
Overall = 85

Tracy McGrady
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 20 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 20 + 20 = 40
Overall = 85

Kobe Bryant
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 20 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 20 + 20 = 40
Overall = 85

Ray Allen
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 20 + 25 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 15 + 10 = 25
Overall = 70

So Vince and MJ, then Kobe, Tmac and Durant and then RayRay. This makes sense to me in terms of pure skill in those narrow categories... If I were rank scoring ability, Vince wouldn't be mentioned and neither would Ray. Durant and MJ would be up there...followed by prime Kobe and then prime T-Mac.

[tmacattack33]

Vince Carter, Kobe...and someone who has probably gotten overlooked: Jason Richardson.

Richardson has been probably the second or third best dunker in the NBA since Vince Carter left. And he's a good long range shooter.

If it weren't for Jason Richardson and Desmond Mason, the NBA dunk contest would have been forced to turn into the gimmick show it is today about 5 years earlier.

[Teanett]

if you mention vince and t-mac, you have to include drexler in the conversation.

[Rake2204]

if you mention vince and t-mac, you have to include drexler in the conversation.He could gun, but the fact he was such a miserable three point shooter through the majority of his athletic prime would probably harm him in this discussion, even when fully considering that long range bombing is just a part of shooting. I also acknowledge the 3-ball wasn't insanely popular in the late 80's, so it was more of a special shot as opposed to regular shot. Still, I believe his shooting stroke is not as deadly as Carter's, whose stroke is not as deadly as Allen or Durant's.


There clearly is no definite objective answer to this question. What level of dunking is equivalent to what level of shooting? And then...dunking and shooting itself has subjective elements...like type of dunking and shooting. I think it's important to split up shooting and dunking into types...

Shooting ability (50) = Off the dribble shooting (25) + Spot-up shooting (25)

You can then even split each of those into 3pt + midrange shooting...but I won't , since they're normally pretty similar and I have a hard time judging how much each should be valued. If I were to suggest some value, I'd value spot-up 3pt shooting more than spot-up 2 point shooting...and the reverse for Off the dribble shooting.

As for dunking, I think nastiness and flashiness are distinct parts of being a great dunker. Nastiness involves facials and such, while flashiness is windmills, alleyoops, what have you...

So, Dunking ability (50) = Nastiness (25) + Flashiness (25)

I think dividing this up like this...will help reduce confusion as to why many of you disagree.

So...let's judge some obvious candidates (in their primes)...

Michael Jordan
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 20 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 25 + 20 = 45
Overall = 90

Vince Carter
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 20 + 20 = 40
Dunking = N + F = 25 + 25 = 50
Overall = 90

Kevin Durant
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 25 = 50
Dunking = N + F = 20 + 15 = 35
Overall = 85

Tracy McGrady
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 20 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 20 + 20 = 40
Overall = 85

Kobe Bryant
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 25 + 20 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 20 + 20 = 40
Overall = 85

Ray Allen
Shooting = ODS + SUS = 20 + 25 = 45
Dunking = N + F = 15 + 10 = 25
Overall = 70

So Vince and MJ, then Kobe, Tmac and Durant and then RayRay. This makes sense to me in terms of pure skill in those narrow categories... If I were rank scoring ability, Vince wouldn't be mentioned and neither would Ray. Durant and MJ would be up there...followed by prime Kobe and then prime T-Mac.I think you're right, this is all quite subjective. Still, I like the effort and thoughts here. Good stuff.

[therammingman]

if you mention vince and t-mac, you have to include drexler in the conversation.

drexler??

[gengiskhan]

Michael "Air" "Mid Range" Jordan