If LBJ ends up with Back-2-Back "MVP Sweeps", He is LOCKED IN Top 10 GOAT

[gengiskhan]

LBJ = MJ & will definitely be in the rarified Air catagory IMO.

Bird has 2 MVP sweeps.
MJ has 4 MVP sweeps.
Magic has 1 MVP sweep.
Shaq has 1 MVP sweep. (should've had 2 if he wasnt robbed of reg sea MVP in 2001 that AI got)

If MIA repeats as champs. & LBJ has 2 successive back-2-back Season MVP + FMVP yrs. Only 1990-1992 MJ has done this in the history. Shaq was clearly robbed of 2001 season MVP that went to AI.

LBJ will be the only one next to MJ doing it in back-2-back 2 years in a row

LBJ has definitely knocked off Kobe & Duncan for ever form that delicate 10th GOAT spot forever.

[fpliii]

Only 1990-1992 MJ has done this in the history of the Finals MVP award.

FIFY

[Magic bird]

Top 10? Definitely.

[TylerOO]

He is already top 10 easy. :confusedshrug:

[Bandito]

If he does that then yes he will be there.

[gengiskhan]

He is already top 10 easy. :confusedshrug:

You right !

I mean LOCKED IN Top 8 GOATs.

4 x Season MVPs
2 x FMVPs
2 x MVP sweeps (back-2-back years)

thats unbelievable peak prime LBJ is having. Only MJ & Bird has done something like this in NBA history.

LBJ will definitely have to be ranked above SHAQ in all-time GOAT list.

[fpliii]

But yes it would put him in the top 10. Not sure who it would knock out. But you forgot Hakeem, Duncan, Moses Malone, Kareem, Willis Read (Finals MVP started in 1969).

[TylerOO]

You right !

I mean LOCKED IN Top 8 GOATs.

4 x Season MVPs
2 x FMVPs
2 x MVP sweeps (back-2-back years)

thats unbelievable peak prime LBJ is having. Only MJ & Bird has done something like this in NBA history.

LBJ will definitely have to be ranked above SHAQ in all-time GOAT list.

Yes it would just solidify his ranking and move him up some slots.

[gengiskhan]

Yes it would just solidify his ranking and move him up some slots.

I think Shaq's laziness left a huge window open for LBJ by NOT winning DPOY even once.

Shaq was the only lonely dominant inside the paint big man force btw 2000-2004.

Hakeem is above shaq b/c of 1994 season: MVP + FMVP + DPOY all in single season.

If LBJ collects a one DPOY title by age 32, He will guarantee himself Top 4 GOATs to ever touch Bball.

[coin24]

If he does a repeat of last year I have no problem putting him at 10. His peak beats hakeems..
Having a monster year and deserves MVP IMO.
Shame he choked in 11 or we'd be talking a higher ranking, can't overlook that egg..

[Sarcastic]

Pretty sure Bill Russell would have some of these, if only...

[Nash]

Lebron has paid his dues when it comes to individual accolades and stats. He has some fantastic numbers, and plenty of MVP's to compete with the best of them. The only thing he needs right now are more championships and FMVP. If he wins championships he'll rate very, very high on that GOAT list.

[knicksman]

Lebron is not better than prime kobe so I dont see lebron winning another ring

[gengiskhan]

Lebron is not better than prime kobe so I dont see lebron winning another ring

The following prime peak all-time greats are MUCH BETTER than Prime Kobe

1. Barkley
2. Hakeem

LBJ prime peak is considerably better than prime peak Kobe easily!

3 Rea Sea MVPs on 2 different franchises !

deal with it.

[knicksman]

The following prime peak all-time greats are MUCH BETTER than Prime Kobe

1. Barkley
2. Hakeem

LBJ prime peak is considerably better than prime peak Kobe easily!

3 Rea Sea MVPs on 2 different franchises !

deal with it.

hakeem yeah but not barkley. Hes a liability on defense coz hes playing pf at that size. Lebron looks better coz of assists but based on my observation its the pure scorers and not all around players that wins in this league or else oscar wouldve been better than jordan. Iverson, arenas would be winners in this league.

[Lebron23]

Lebron is not better than prime kobe so I dont see lebron winning another ring


STFU.

[La Frescobaldi]

hakeem yeah but not barkley. Hes a liability on defense coz hes playing pf at that size. Lebron looks better coz of assists but based on my observation its the pure scorers and not all around players that wins in this league or else oscar wouldve been better than jordan. Iverson, arenas would be winners in this league.

Oscar had insanely bad teams.

Oscar was Mike on the 80s Bulls for his whole career until he went to the Bucks when he was already old.

[scandisk_]

LBJ = MJ & will definitely be in the rarified Air catagory IMO.

Bird has 2 MVP sweeps.
MJ has 4 MVP sweeps.
Magic has 1 MVP sweep.
Shaq has 1 MVP sweep. (should've had 2 if he wasnt robbed of reg sea MVP in 2001 that AI got)

If MIA repeats as champs. & LBJ has 2 successive back-2-back Season MVP + FMVP yrs. Only 1990-1992 MJ has done this in the history. Shaq was clearly robbed of 2001 season MVP that went to AI.

LBJ will be the only one next to MJ doing it in back-2-back 2 years in a row

LBJ has definitely knocked off Kobe & Duncan for ever form that delicate 10th GOAT spot forever.

WTF is this Pauk? It's too early to blow your cover :oldlol:

[gengiskhan]

WTF is this Pauk? It's too early to blow your cover :oldlol:

on come'on dude!!

I liked Bruceblitz dead ringer better! Atleast he got mentioned on national tv by Mark Jackson

[tazb]

LeBron is already locked top 10...with another MVP + Finals MVP he will be locked top 5 all time. One more he will be behind MJ the GOAT. If he gets one more he will be the official GOAT.

[NumberSix]

He is already top 10 easy. :confusedshrug:
Career legacy? Perhaps, but you could make an argument that he isn't.

As far as just a list of the best players, I already have him in the top 4.

[Micku]

hakeem yeah but not barkley. Hes a liability on defense coz hes playing pf at that size. Lebron looks better coz of assists but based on my observation its the pure scorers and not all around players that wins in this league or else oscar wouldve been better than jordan. Iverson, arenas would be winners in this league.

Bird was all around on offense. Magic was all around too on offense too.

What usually win championships are big men. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Mikan, Parish/Mchale, Moses Malone, Willis Reed, Walton, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan/Robinson, Dirk, KG, and stuff. You usually can't win without a big guy who can get rebounds, protect the paint, or use their size as a advantage to score.

Big men whatever centers/powerforwards won way more than superstar guards who can score.

In fact, pure scorers rarely win the championships. The only ppl who won by leading the league in scoring are MJ, Kareem, and Shaq. At the same time, there are ppl who scored a lot who did win.

But usually, you cannot win without a big guy. The only exception were probably MJ and LeBron. But even then, MJ did have guys like H.Grant and Rodman and LBJ had Bosh.

[ganja0710]

One more MVP, he'd still be Top 11. One more FMVP and ring this season bumps him into #10 booting out Hakeem. :oldlol: @ all this top 5 BS.

[inclinerator]

winning a regular season mvp isnt as important

[knicksman]

Bird was all around on offense. Magic was all around too on offense too.

What usually win championships are big men. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Mikan, Parish/Mchale, Moses Malone, Willis Reed, Walton, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan/Robinson, Dirk, KG, and stuff. You usually can't win without a big guy who can get rebounds, protect the paint, or use their size as a advantage to score.

Big men whatever centers/powerforwards won way more than superstar guards who can score.

In fact, pure scorers rarely win the championships. The only ppl who won by leading the league in scoring are MJ, Kareem, and Shaq. At the same time, there are ppl who scored a lot who did win.

But usually, you cannot win without a big guy. The only exception were probably MJ and LeBron. But even then, MJ did have guys like H.Grant and Rodman and LBJ had Bosh.

yeah i agree that big men wins. But when it comes to perimeter vs perimeter. It comes down to all around versus pure. It is the same with choosing between quality or quantity. An all around player has the quantity of skills but not the quality while its the other way around for pure scorers. And Ill always chose quality over quantity. Jordan, kobe are better pure scorers than lebron as they can beat him one on one and magic is a better pure passer than lebron. And they all combine for 16 rings while oscar, lebron only 2. lebron might win more with the cavs than jordan or magic did but when paired with other good players like pippen, jordan makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. While I dont see a pippen/lebron combo as good as jordan/pippen. In fact we have seen it with wade and lebron. In order to win with lebron, you need other superstars while I really dont see pippen being a superstar had he not played with jordan.

[TylerOO]

Career legacy? Perhaps, but you could make an argument that he isn't.

As far as just a list of the best players, I already have him in the top 4.

If we're talking just best player then he is definitely top 2.

[knicksman]

Oscar had insanely bad teams.

Oscar was Mike on the 80s Bulls for his whole career until he went to the Bucks when he was already old.

I agree that you need a good team to win but to contend is another thing. Duncan, shaq, kareem, dirk, cp3, durant makes their team contenders despite the roster. jordan was a statpadder too early in his career thats why his team is losing early on.

[fpliii]

Pretty sure Bill Russell would have some of these, if only...

I'm not sure how many he'd have, but at least a few (and not all 11 obviously, since West won in 69). Wilt in 67 probably would have one too. Maybe Cousy in 57 (have to read up on that Finals more, though I believe Russell and Heinsohn were both big from my recollection of articles)? The MVP didn't exist prior to 55-56, but you gotta imagine Big George Mikan would've had at least one.

If we include ABA, Connie Hawkins has one (68), and Dr. J has two (74, 76).

[Whoah10115]

The thinking that goes into these sort of threads are what's wrong with ranking and talking about players. OP could even be right, but this checkbox excuse for evaluation is awful.

[fpliii]

The thinking that goes into these sort of threads are what's wrong with ranking and talking about players. OP could even be right, but this checkbox excuse for evaluation is awful.

:cheers:

[secund2nun]

Big men do rule the NBA. Most of the best bball players ever are big men. The only perimeter players that can match the top big men are MJ, Magic, Lebron. All other perimeter players like Kobe, Wade, Iverson etc are overrated and cannot compare to top big men. It's just that the big men are not considered sexy so they are not promoted, and thus underrated while flashy sexy outside players are promoted so they are overrated.

[fpliii]

Big men do rule the NBA. Most of the best bball players ever are big men. The only perimeter players that can match the top big men are MJ, Magic, Lebron. All other perimeter players like Kobe, Wade, Iverson etc are overrated and cannot compare to top big men. It's just that the big men are not considered sexy so they are not promoted, and thus underrated while flashy sexy outside players are promoted so they are overrated.

For 90% of the NBA's history this is true, but IMO rule changes have made it impossible for a big man to dominate the league today, and nigh-impossible to succeed at a very high level. As a wise man once said (was this Shaq? I forget...), "seven-footers don't sell sneakers".

[secund2nun]

Rule changes may have hurt big men a little, but they are still the most important position. It's just that there are none anymore. It's still all about big men. Dwight dragged trash to the 2009 finals. The Lakers went from 1st round knock out to back to back NBA finals with the addition of Gasol and development of Bynum.

Dallas collapsed once Tyson Chandler left. If Miami were to suddenly trade Wade or Bosh for Chandler, Howard, Bynum, etc they would become a far superior team (especially if they had a Bosh + legit center front counrt). Duncan is still dominating and leading the Spurs to a top record. If prime Shaq was playing today he would wreck the league just like he did in 2000.

[ThaRegul8r]

Pretty sure Bill Russell would have some of these, if only...

I'm not sure how many he'd have, but at least a few (and not all 11 obviously, since West won in 69). Wilt in 67 probably would have one too. Maybe Cousy in 57 (have to read up on that Finals more, though I believe Russell and Heinsohn were both big from my recollection of articles)? The MVP didn't exist prior to 55-56, but you gotta imagine Big George Mikan would've had at least one.

If we include ABA, Connie Hawkins has one (68), and Dr. J has two (74, 76).

He'd have a minimum of 7, had the award existed his whole career. I don't have a problem going with the low end, so that's the number I usually use.

[fpliii]

He'd have a minimum of 7, had the award existed his whole career. I don't have a problem going with the low end, so that's the number I usually use.

Thanks. Which seasons are we definitely giving to him? I'm guessing (apologies for anything inaccurate):

57 - Heinsohn, Cousy, Russ have a case
58 - nonissue, was injured
59 - Heinsohn, Sharman have a case (Russ might, GOAT rebounding series I believe?)
60 - Russell
61 - Russell
62 - Russell
63 - Russell
64 - Sam Jones, Russ have a case
65 - Russell (Sam Jones outside case, but wouldn't make much sense)
66 - Russell
67 - nonissue, wasn't in Finals
68 - Havlicek and Russ both have a case
69 - nonissue, goes to West

Aside from the bolded, I guess you went with 59 and 65 (I think you've said you have Havlicek in 68)? Of the five, 61-63 (back-to-back-to-back) would qualify as "MVP sweeps", and 65 could potentially as well (again, apologies if I'm off base).

[Kiddlovesnets]

Even if he does not end up with b2b MVP Sweeps, he still will become top 10 of all time sooner or later. Hes just entering his prime.

[ThaRegul8r]

Thanks. Which seasons are we definitely giving to him? I'm guessing (apologies for anything inaccurate):

57 - Heinsohn, Cousy, Russ have a case
58 - nonissue, was injured
59 - Heinsohn, Sharman have a case (Russ might, GOAT rebounding series I believe?)
60 - Russell
61 - Russell
62 - Russell
63 - Russell
64 - Sam Jones, Russ have a case
65 - Russell (Sam Jones outside case, but wouldn't make much sense)
66 - Russell
67 - nonissue, wasn't in Finals
68 - Havlicek and Russ both have a case
69 - nonissue, goes to West

Aside from the bolded, I guess you went with 59 and 65 (I think you've said you have Havlicek in 68)? Of the five, 61-63 (back-to-back-to-back) would qualify as "MVP sweeps", and 65 could potentially as well (again, apologies if I'm off base).

Correct. Russell doesn't win in '57, I believe that would likely go to Heinsohn. People will go for Heinsohn's scoring numbers. '59, as you said, was the GOAT rebounding series. Lakers' coach John Kundla specifically said, "We tried as much as possible to keep him away from the boards, but there really isn't much you can do with the guy" (The Milwaukee Sentinel, Apr 7, 1959). "I think it was Russell who beat us. We just can't do anything about that man. ... He grabs that ball, wings it to Cousy and Boston has got three men breaking against our one back before we know what hit us" (The Evening Independent, Apr 8, 1959). Russell's rebounding was the catalyst for their offensive attack, and people were appreciating what he was doing despite not having gaudy scoring numbers. And he finished the sweep with a triple-double of 15 points, 30 rebounds and 12 blocks.

He then wins '60-'63 without question. He puts up back-to-back 20/20 series in '62 and '63, of course having one of the great Game 7s in Finals history in '62, with his entire frontcourt fouling out. I give '64 to Jones, because I acknowledge that voter fatigue might set in at this point and it might go to someone other than Russell. Though Jones did have a six points on 2-for-6 shooting and one-rebound stinker in there, and Russell had to contend with both Chamberlain and Nate Thurmond. Russell wins '65. He set a still-standing record for FG% for a 5-game series, shooting 70.2%, and had 22 points, 30 rebounds and four assists in the deciding Game 5 while Jones had a mere 10 points, which would kill any outside chance he might have at FMVP. Russell wins in '66, averaging another 20/20, leading the team in scoring at 23.6 points on 53.8% FG and 57.4% TS, 24.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists and shooting 74% from the free throw line.

'68 is between Russell and Havlicek. I gave it to Havlicek because, as I said regarding '64, it might go to Someone Other Than Russell, and I account for the fact that Russell is likely not going to get all 10 that would be available for that reason. For example, in '98, Pippen was regarded as the favorite for Finals MVP until Game 5 and his injury, and in '96, there were people who regarded Rodman as the true Finals MVP (if Kemp didn't pull a Jerry West). Since Russell was involved in so many more Finals than Jordan was, I figure he loses a couple of FMVPs, but he still wins more than anyone else ever does.

[fpliii]

Correct. Russell doesn't win in '57, I believe that would likely go to Heinsohn. People will go for Heinsohn's scoring numbers. '59, as you said, was the GOAT rebounding series. Lakers' coach John Kundla specifically said, "We tried as much as possible to keep him away from the boards, but there really isn't much you can do with the guy" (The Milwaukee Sentinel, Apr 7, 1959). "I think it was Russell who beat us. We just can't do anything about that man. ... He grabs that ball, wings it to Cousy and Boston has got three men breaking against our one back before we know what hit us" (The Evening Independent, Apr 8, 1959). Russell's rebounding was the catalyst for their offensive attack, and people were appreciating what he was doing despite not having gaudy scoring numbers. And he finished the sweep with a triple-double of 15 points, 30 rebounds and 12 blocks.

He then wins '60-'63 without question. He puts up back-to-back 20/20 series in '62 and '63, of course having one of the great Game 7s in Finals history in '62, with his entire frontcourt fouling out. I give '64 to Jones, because I acknowledge that voter fatigue might set in at this point and it might go to someone other than Russell. Though Jones did have a six points on 2-for-6 shooting and one-rebound stinker in there, and Russell had to contend with both Chamberlain and Nate Thurmond. Russell wins '65. He set a still-standing record for FG% for a 5-game series, shooting 70.2%, and had 22 points, 30 rebounds and four assists in the deciding Game 5 while Jones had a mere 10 points, which would kill any outside chance he might have at FMVP. Russell wins in '66, averaging another 20/20, leading the team in scoring at 23.6 points on 53.8% FG and 57.4% TS, 24.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists and shooting 74% from the free throw line.

'68 is between Russell and Havlicek. I gave it to Havlicek because, as I said regarding '64, it might go to Someone Other Than Russell, and I account for the fact that Russell is likely not going to get all 10 that would be available for that reason. For example, in '98, Pippen was regarded as the favorite for Finals MVP until Game 5 and his injury, and in '96, there were people who regarded Rodman as the true Finals MVP (if Kemp didn't pull a Jerry West). Since Russell was involved in so many more Finals than Jordan was, I figure he loses a couple of FMVPs, but he still wins more than anyone else ever does.

Excellent information, thanks. I'm glad we're on the same page (I have all the Boston Globe articles from the Russell years, have to go through the Finals PDFs in detail when I have a chance; if you're interested let me know and I can upload them and link in PM).

Regarding the other seasons during which the regular season was awarded...

58 and 67 are obvious (so Wilt would have an "MVP Sweep", Pettit wouldn't...Arizin probably wins in 56 but Pettit was regular season MVP); does Cousy have any case in 57 in your opinion, or would it go to Heinsohn? If it's him, would Heinsohn be the only guy to win ROY and Finals MVP in the same season (though obviously there will be dissenting opinions in favor of Russell for both)?

As for Pippen, I forget which season (97 or 98), but I think Jordan himself was calling him the Finals MVP (or maybe I'm 'misremembering' and it was just the Bulls MVP?). Does this sound familiar, or am I just nuts?

[LebronairJAMES]

http://azzmilkgifs.webs.com/lebron%20beats%20up%20kobe.gif

[Mr. Jabbar]

Ok, if I remember math class correctly:

2011 Finals = -1 ring
2012 Finals = 0.5 ring
*2013 Finals (if they win fair) = 1 ring

-1+1+0.5 = 0.5 ring

Is half a ring worthy of top 10? I don't think so...

[KOBE143]

Ok, if I remember math class correctly:

2011 Finals = -1 ring
2012 Finals = 0.5 ring
*2013 Finals (if they win fair) = 1 ring

-1+1+0.5 = 0.5 ring

Is half a ring worthy of top 10? I don't think so...
:applause:

If Im correct LeBron right now has an -1 ring.. How about the 2007?

[Mr. Jabbar]

:applause:

If Im correct LeBron right now has an -1 ring.. How about the 2007?

OMg didn't remember those Finals, complete sweep. -1 for sure.

Its 0.5-1 = -0.5 , bron still in the negative ring count even if wining fair and square (imposible) in 2013

[ThaRegul8r]

Excellent information, thanks. I'm glad we're on the same page (I have all the Boston Globe articles from the Russell years, have to go through the Finals PDFs in detail when I have a chance; if you're interested let me know and I can upload them and link in PM).

Regarding the other seasons during which the regular season was awarded...

58 and 67 are obvious (so Wilt would have an "MVP Sweep", Pettit wouldn't...Arizin probably wins in 56 but Pettit was regular season MVP); does Cousy have any case in 57 in your opinion, or would it go to Heinsohn? If it's him, would Heinsohn be the only guy to win ROY and Finals MVP in the same season (though obviously there will be dissenting opinions in favor of Russell for both)?

I don't believe Cousy ever wins a Finals MVP had the award existed. His best chance would be in the beginning before people realize/appreciate what Russell is doing and it's clear he's the dominant force behind Boston's winning. Both he and Sharman had horrible Game 7s in '57, and it was the rookies who led them to victory.

I believe Heinsohn does win ROY and Finals MVP. Russell didn't play enough games to win ROY, Heinsohn was their leading scorer in the postseason, and then there is also the racial factor to consider. Russell was MVP of the league the following year (voted by the players), yet he wasn't voted to the All-NBA First Team (which wasn't determined by the players). With that, I don't believe the league was ready for a black Finals MVP yet (which wouldn't have been decided by the players), so I don't believe Russell would have won the first Finals MVP in any event. I don't believe the defensive player gets the recognition of Finals MVP for the first title. After that though, it can't be denied.

I'll mention though, that it was Heinsohn's failure to box out Cliff Hagan that led to Hagan's tip-in of a Bob Pettit miss that was the game-winner for a 96-94 St. Louis in Game 6 to send it to a seventh and deciding game in the first place. And I believe Heinsohn fouled out of Game 7 if I recall correctly.


As for Pippen, I forget which season (97 or 98), but I think Jordan himself was calling him the Finals MVP (or maybe I'm 'misremembering' and it was just the Bulls MVP?). Does this sound familiar, or am I just nuts?

No, you're not nuts. It's most likely '98. It's been over a decade now since I watched that series, but that's the year Pippen was getting MVP talk. That was also the year he locked down Mark Jackson against Indiana in the postseason, so people were recognizing his contributions to Chicago's success.

[fpliii]

I don't believe Cousy ever wins a Finals MVP had the award existed. His best chance would be in the beginning before people realize/appreciate what Russell is doing and it's clear he's the dominant force behind Boston's winning. Both he and Sharman had horrible Game 7s in '57, and it was the rookies who led them to victory.

Thanks for the info,...here's a file with some sources:

http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/96170157/file.html

the contents of folder [1] might be useful here.


I believe Heinsohn does win ROY and Finals MVP. Russell didn't play enough games to win ROY, Heinsohn was their leading scorer in the postseason, and then there is also the racial factor to consider. Russell was MVP of the league the following year (voted by the players), yet he wasn't voted to the All-NBA First Team (which wasn't determined by the players). With that, I don't believe the league was ready for a black Finals MVP yet (which wouldn't have been decided by the players), so I don't believe Russell would have won the first Finals MVP in any event. I don't believe the defensive player gets the recognition of Finals MVP for the first title. After that though, it can't be denied.

I considered the defensive player issue, but didn't have race in mind. It might've indeed been in issue though in 1957. There wasn't even a vote for the first few years of the Finals MVP's existence...from 69-78 it was awarded by the editors of 'Sport Magazine', and thereafter was subject to a media vote. [2]


I'll mention though, that it was Heinsohn's failure to box out Cliff Hagan that led to Hagan's tip-in of a Bob Pettit miss that was the game-winner for a 96-94 St. Louis in Game 6 to send it to a seventh and deciding game in the first place. And I believe Heinsohn fouled out of Game 7 if I recall correctly.

Again I don't know offhand, I'll check later (busy dumping archives at the moment). [1]


No, you're not nuts. It's most likely '98. It's been over a decade now since I watched that series, but that's the year Pippen was getting MVP talk. That was also the year he locked down Mark Jackson against Indiana in the postseason, so people were recognizing his contributions to Chicago's success.

Just checked...there was media talk in 98 (prior to that poor game he had), but it turns out Jordan proclaimed Pippen co-MVP in 97 (though I think he was a FA that season, so it might've been praise with the intention of keeping him in Chicago). [3]

[fpliii]

sorry for the bump, but I just added the link

[Deuce Bigalow]

No. Unless he has an insane Playoff run. Everybody in the top 10 has at least 2 rings. Wilt and Hakeem are at the end of the top 10 and their 2 rings are all-time great runs so no Lebron doesn't surpass that.

[fpliii]

No. Unless he has an insane Playoff run. Everybody in the top 10 has at least 2 rings. Wilt and Hakeem are at the end of the top 10 and their 2 rings are all-time great runs so no Lebron doesn't surpass that.

I had a conversation with our buddy big_mikes1 from NBA General the other day. He suggested that Bird could be bumped from the top 10 if this happens (he also thinks that Garnett with a great run knocks Bird out).

But I think you hit the nail on the head...it comes down to the quality of his run, since we're splitting hairs (I still have him behind West/Robertson in addition to the consensus top 10, so he'd need another run like last season to jump not only them but displace someone in the top 10).

[Lebron23]

No. Unless he has an insane Playoff run. Everybody in the top 10 has at least 2 rings. Wilt and Hakeem are at the end of the top 10 and their 2 rings are all-time great runs so no Lebron doesn't surpass that.


LeBron had a great playoffs run last year. Kobe was a top 30 player of all time before he won his first finals MVP in 2009.

[Whoah10115]

LeBron had a great playoffs run last year. Kobe was a top 30 player of all time before he won his first finals MVP in 2009.



Top 30? Good Lord.

[DMV2]

He's already somewhere between 11-16 already.

- Regular season MVP, no championship = doesn't move up
- Championship, F-MVP, no regular season MVP = he'll be in discussion between Duncan and Shaq for 7th and 8th All-Time list. Hakeem or Kobe gets bump from the general census of Top 10 All-Time.

[Lebron23]

Top 30? Good Lord.


Kobe was not yet a top 20 player of all time back in 2008.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I had a conversation with our buddy big_mikes1 from NBA General the other day. He suggested that Bird could be bumped from the top 10 if this happens (he also thinks that Garnett with a great run knocks Bird out).

But I think you hit the nail on the head...it comes down to the quality of his run, since we're splitting hairs (I still have him behind West/Robertson in addition to the consensus top 10, so he'd need another run like last season to jump not only them but displace someone in the top 10).
Big mikes isn't considered highly on that board fp lol Didn't be win dumbest poster in ESPN history?

[DMV2]

Top 30? Good Lord.
Top 30 seems about right for Kobe, 1996-2008.

3 championships, 1 regular season MVP.

Pau Gasol really saved his career, in terms of all-time rankings.

[StateOfMind12]

He already is top 10 GOAT and ahead of Kobe in the all-time list, only Kobe fans disagree.

[Deuce Bigalow]

LeBron had a great playoffs run last year. Kobe was a top 30 player of all time before he won his first finals MVP in 2009.
WTF

[fpliii]

Big mikes isn't considered highly on that board fp lol Didn't be win dumbest poster in ESPN history?

He did but he's toned it down a bit...he's capable of intelligent conversation now, but that's impossible on those forums. He does still tend to be slightly biased against white players, but when he wants to he's one of the better debaters on the board.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-greatestsgs

Kobe was considered the 2nd greatest SG in 2008 before the season ended.

Kobe 1997-2008:
3x NBA Champion
2007-08 NBA MVP
2x NBA Scoring Champion
11x NBA All-Star
10x All-NBA Team
8x All-Defensive Team
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP
Youngest to score 20,000 points

I would say that's easily a top 20 career and some had him top 15 because they had him over Jerry West.

[ILLsmak]

Can't see Bron winning it this year.

-Smak

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe was not yet a top 20 player of all time back in 2008.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255143

Top 15-18.

[DMV2]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-greatestsgs

Kobe was considered the 2nd greatest SG in 2008 before the season ended.

Kobe 1997-2008:
3x NBA Champion
2007-08 NBA MVP
2x NBA Scoring Champion
11x NBA All-Star
10x All-NBA Team
8x All-Defensive Team
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP
Youngest to score 20,000 points

I would say that's easily a top 20 career and some had him top 15 because they had him over Jerry West.
Kobe has always had a great hype machine behind his name.

1998 All-Star appearance is a prime example.

[Lebron23]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255143

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183935

Isiah Thomas, John Havlicek, Bob Pettit, JUlius Erving were ranked higher than Kobe before he won a Finals MVP.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe has always had a great hype machine behind his name.

1998 All-Star appearance is a prime example.
Well, he would have had made it in '99 but there was no ASG that year. So he deserves 11 at that time still.

[Deuce Bigalow]

5

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18393

Isiah Thomas, John Havlicek, Bob Pettit, JUlius Erving were ranked higher than Kobe before he won a Finals MVP.
Oh yeah because he didn't win FMVP he isn't as good as them.

Kobe 2001 Playoffs: 29-7-6 on 56TS, 2001 Finals: 25-8-6 on 50TS
Kobe 2002 Playoffs: 27-6-5 on 51TS, 2002 Finals: 27-6-5 on 62TS

[Whoah10115]

Kobe was not yet a top 20 player of all time back in 2008.


So I'd like to hear how Lebron was even top 35 before last season. I'd love to hear how he was ahead of Wade (who I honestly had ahead of him before last season).



Top 30 seems about right for Kobe, 1996-2008.

3 championships, 1 regular season MVP.

Pau Gasol really saved his career, in terms of all-time rankings.



Seems rather ridiculous.



http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183935

Isiah Thomas, John Havlicek, Bob Pettit, JUlius Erving were ranked higher than Kobe before he won a Finals MVP.


I disagree, but it's somewhat irrelevant. The actual run that goes into the run is how you judge a guy. But we're literally ignoring 3 NBA titles -two if which were barely won- because he was the team's second best player? And the one dominant title was won with him as arguably the best player thru the first 3 rounds. I don't get this. I'm not saying you're a stan and a Kobe Hater or anything like that, but this line of thinking is always very strange to me. And I said a page or two ago, this approach to ranking is really negative.

[Kobr]

Nope. It will take more titles, not popularity contests.