2002-03 GM Survey

[fpliii]

There are a few gems...here's the link:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021204093109/http://www.nba.com/preview2002/General_Manager_Survey.html

I can't find any earlier seasons. Was this the first time they conducted the survey?

[CeltsGarlic]

Very interesting. Thanks.

On the same note, do you know who is dunking in this vid?
http://youtu.be/escQ4PQXm5M?t=15s

[Cali Syndicate]

Very interesting. Thanks.

One the same note, do you know who is dunking in this vid?
http://youtu.be/escQ4PQXm5M?t=15s

Desmond Mason?

[fpliii]

Desmond Mason?

Yeah that was my suspicion. Just confirmed it by checking against the play-by-play:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200211210SEA.html

GP with the assist.

[CeltsGarlic]

Yeah that was my suspicion. Just confirmed it by checking against the play-by-play:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200211210SEA.html

GP with the assist.

Really thank you!

Great idea with b-r.

[MJ(Mean John)]

Desmond Mason?


There was a lot of dunks.


Omg, that Vince carter over Duncan was so nasty.
IMO, that's prolly his best In game Dunk ever.

And there was a few crazy dunks that year. Also, I forgot that early on Ricky Davis had some juice. Dude could really stuff it.

I remember watching all these live,
How it was great to have free time and watch as many games as I could.
Not 1 Iverson or McGrady highlight tho?
Why? IIRC; these dudes were killin with highlights.
Especially the answer, dude was in his prime crossing ppl over

[Harison]

Thanks for the link, very weird voting:

Oct. 22: Who is the player most likely to make a last-second shot if a game depended on it?
Kobe Bryant - 42.3%
Reggie Miller - 38.5%
Michael Jordan - 15.4%

Really? 50% game winners vs 25%, no love for MJ.

Oct. 23: Who is the most intense player on the court in the NBA?

Alonzo Mourning - 20.0%
Ben Wallace - 16.0%
Allen Iverson - 12.0%
Kobe Bryant - 8.0%
Kevin Garnett - 8.0%
Michael Jordan - 8.0%

Kobe, Jordan and KG are much less intense than Alonzo? :confusedshrug:

Oct. 15: Who is the best defender in the NBA?

Gary Payton - 46.2%
Bruce Bowen - 11.5%
Kobe Bryant - 7.7%
Ben Wallace - 7.7%
Tim Duncan - 3.8%
Kevin Garnett - 3.8%
Jason Kidd - 3.8%
Tracy McGrady - 3.8%

Payton was on his last legs, how did he get 46% votes vs 7% of actual DPOY Big Ben? Since when McGrady was considered to be as good defender as Duncan or Garnett?

Votes like these makes me question how much GM's understand this game.

[Whoah10115]

I wish someone could find that article from The Sporting News (I believe), ranking the top 25 players in the league. Only Shaq (#1 and #2 on every GM's list), Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Kidd, Webber and Pierce made every top 25. Yao was the only rookie (potential). The top 10 was:

Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, McGrady (?), Garnett, Kidd, Webber, Dirk, Pierce, Iverson.

[fpliii]

I wish someone could find that article from The Sporting News (I believe), ranking the top 25 players in the league. Only Shaq (#1 and #2 on every GM's list), Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Kidd, Webber and Pierce made every top 25. Yao was the only rookie (potential). The top 10 was:

Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, McGrady (?), Garnett, Kidd, Webber, Dirk, Pierce, Iverson.

Do you remember around when it came out? Was it also before the 02-03 season?

[Shade8780]

Which team will win NBA Finals 2003?

L.A. Lakers - 61.5%
Sacramento - 30.8%
San Antonio - 3.8%
Washington - 3.8%

:biggums: :biggums:

[Kblaze8855]

They did these for years. The 1990 one is posted here somewhere

[fpliii]

They did these for years. The 1990 one is posted here somewhere

Just found it:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234898&page=2

[CeltsGarlic]

http://i.imgflip.com/fjdp.gif

Im in love with this. No player could do that headband throw right now.. maybe Josh or JR Smiths but that wouldnt look that cool.

[rzp]

the true mvp voting :pimp:

Oct. 7: If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?
Shaquille O'Neal - 64.0%
Tim Duncan - 28.0%
Kobe Bryant - 4.0%
Tracy McGrady - 4.0%

[rmt]

Pop isn't on any of the coaches' lists. Funny how some posters on this board think he was so great when he doesn't even warrant a mention even as late as 2002. Anyways, he ended up winning coach of the year, Spurs with the best record and the championship and Duncan with regular and Finals MVPs.

[fpliii]

I wish someone could find that article from The Sporting News (I believe), ranking the top 25 players in the league. Only Shaq (#1 and #2 on every GM's list), Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Kidd, Webber and Pierce made every top 25. Yao was the only rookie (potential). The top 10 was:

Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, McGrady (?), Garnett, Kidd, Webber, Dirk, Pierce, Iverson.

I found something similar (this almost certainly is something else though, since it's from the end of the previous season):

http://www50.zippyshare.com/v/90684084/file.html

I'll look more when I have the chance...

[fpliii]

I found one other, though this is from even earlier (2000) so it's definitely not the same thing (still interesting):

http://www53.zippyshare.com/v/78929429/file.html

[SCdac]

makes the Spurs' run that much more impressive. Not only winning the championship but going through the Lakers on the way there.

[bl2k8]

makes the Spurs' run that much more impressive. Not only winning the championship but going through the Lakers on the way there.
:oldlol: Spurs went through the worst Shaq/Kobe team in 03

[SCdac]

:oldlol: Spurs went through the worst Shaq/Kobe team in 03

Eh, Shaq put up 25/16 and Kobe put up 32/5/4.

But it wasn't enough against the Spurs.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/2003/0609_large.jpg

[Whoah10115]

Do you remember around when it came out? Was it also before the 02-03 season?



It was during.

[Artillery]

the true mvp voting :pimp:

Oct. 7: If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?
Shaquille O'Neal - 64.0%
Tim Duncan - 28.0%
Kobe Bryant - 4.0%
Tracy McGrady - 4.0%

:roll:

And Kobe fans want to pretend he was on another level from McGrady. Pretty clear who the two best players in the league were in the early 2000s.

[red1]

Oct 3: Which teammates comprise the best duo in the NBA?
Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant - 100.0%
no love for kwame brown and juan dixon?

[STATUTORY]

:roll:

And Kobe fans want to pretend he was on another level from McGrady. Pretty clear who the two best players in the league were in the early 2000s.
that's a logical fallacy, NBA GMs are not infallible. In fact we have the benefit of hindsight and they are projecting forward. In retrospect it wasn't even close, Kobe a whole different stratosphere from Tmac

[Cali Syndicate]

that's a logical fallacy, NBA GMs are not infallible. In fact we have the benefit of hindsight and they are projecting forward. In retrospect it wasn't even close, Kobe a whole different stratosphere from Tmac

At the time, Kobe was better as a defender and overall scorer however T-mac was pretty close as a player.

[KG215]

In that short 2-3 year window I think many people felt McGrady was on or close to Kobe's level. He just had shit teammates in Orlando and didn't have the team succes to back him up like Kobe. Obviously, in hindsight that seems silly, but at the time it was a legitimate argument.

[fpliii]

In that short 2-3 year window I think many people felt McGrady was on or close to Kobe's level. He just had shit teammates in Orlando and didn't have the team succes to back him up like Kobe. Obviously, in hindsight that seems silly, but at the time it was a legitimate argument.

It's a shame that we didn't get to see Hill/T-Mac together much during those four years.

[Whoah10115]

In that short 2-3 year window I think many people felt McGrady was on or close to Kobe's level. He just had shit teammates in Orlando and didn't have the team succes to back him up like Kobe. Obviously, in hindsight that seems silly, but at the time it was a legitimate argument.



I think it was always obvious. Maybe the talent level was the same, but McGrady always did a lot by himself. That has nothing to do with bad teammates. He played an individual's game. He was just so good sometimes that he could take the game over. And doing it the way he did was too much to ignore. But he was never as good as Bryant. People can talk all this "If he had Kobe's teammates" stuff, but when he had better teammates and actually used them (in Houston, before he had a bunch of injuries), he couldn't put up the same scoring numbers...and his shooting percentages were lower than Kobe's.

[Cali Syndicate]

I think it was always obvious. Maybe the talent level was the same, but McGrady always did a lot by himself. That has nothing to do with bad teammates. He played an individual's game. He was just so good sometimes that he could take the game over. And doing it the way he did was too much to ignore. But he was never as good as Bryant. People can talk all this "If he had Kobe's teammates" stuff, but when he had better teammates and actually used them (in Houston, before he had a bunch of injuries), he couldn't put up the same scoring numbers...and his shooting percentages were lower than Kobe's.

He really only played one season in Houston before his back started giving him fits. And while his numbers were down that season, he did very well in the playoffs.

[shallehalle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm21rKmllvM

[Whoah10115]

He really only played one season in Houston before his back started giving him fits. And while his numbers were down that season, he did very well in the playoffs.



He was terrific. In fact, I think that's his best season (or maybe I don't?). Lebron made the All-NBA 2nd Team, McGrady made the 3rd Team. And I always had it that way, but I thought about it today and it was kinda obvious. McGrady should have been on the 2nd Team. He was terrific.

[HardwoodLegend]

People can talk all this "If he had Kobe's teammates" stuff, but when he had better teammates and actually used them (in Houston, before he had a bunch of injuries), he couldn't put up the same scoring numbers...and his shooting percentages were lower than Kobe's.

I told you this before, but playing with Yao and a bunch of nonexistent role players who frequently disappeared is a lot different than playing with Shaq.

Yao scored a lot by taking jumpers from the top of the key just inside the three-point line. The way he played a lot of his offense didn't open up the floor for a perimeter player the way Shaq did by pounding down low and drawing a lot of attention.



Since when McGrady was considered to be as good defender as Duncan or Garnett?

He was drawing Scottie Pippen comparisons from his rookie season thru 2002. Great shotblocker and length at the SG position.

2002-03 is the year he started to slack a bit on defense as he felt he had to do more on offense to give the team a chance to win.

[Rake2204]

Yeah that was my suspicion. Just confirmed it by checking against the play-by-play:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200211210SEA.html

GP with the assist.Wow, I did not know that was a feature on basketball reference. Pretty cool.

[jlip]

There are a few gems...here's the link:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021204093109/http://www.nba.com/preview2002/General_Manager_Survey.html

I can't find any earlier seasons. Was this the first time they conducted the survey?

It wasn't the first, but I haven't seen too many before then. I actually did a thread on the 1990 GM survey (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234898).

[ShaqAttack3234]

I had the surveys for '00-'02, but the links don't work anymore. I know that the consensus top 3 after Shaq and Kobe won their second title together was Shaq, Kobe and Duncan in that order until Duncan dethroned them in the '03 playoffs.


:oldlol: Spurs went through the worst Shaq/Kobe team in 03

Well, they did finish the season 31-9. They did have the injury to Rick Fox which left Devean George at SF in the playoffs(who also got hurt) but the roster was very similar to their 3peat. The primary difference was that they were a bit older and Kobe had gotten better while Shaq had started to decline a bit. They were less motivated and didn't have chemistry to start the season, but they turned it on late and were legit title contenders. I mean forget Horry going 0/18 on 3s vs the Spurs, just look at that one potential game winner vs the Spurs that rims out. That was probably the difference in the series, much like Horry's 3 staying down was the previous year, so it shows how much luck can factor in when teams are close. Good luck for LA in '02 led to a title, and bad luck prevented them from 3peating.


that's a logical fallacy, NBA GMs are not infallible. In fact we have the benefit of hindsight and they are projecting forward. In retrospect it wasn't even close, Kobe a whole different stratosphere from Tmac

What do you mean the benefit of hindsight? Sorry, but this is ridiculous. What they did after 2003 has nothing to do with how close they were as players in 2003. If you watched them back then, you didn't have to see how their careers turned out to judge them in '03.

They were neck and neck as players from '02-'05. In '03, I actually have T-Mac slightly ahead for season long consistency. If you break down their games you can give a little edge to each player in certain categories, but they're almost identical. Tough to watch either and conclude either was a better scorer, though T-Mac had the better scoring season statistically. Kobe has the advantage defensively, and arguably on the boards, but I'd say T-Mac was a better pure passer.


I think it was always obvious. Maybe the talent level was the same, but McGrady always did a lot by himself. That has nothing to do with bad teammates. He played an individual's game. He was just so good sometimes that he could take the game over. And doing it the way he did was too much to ignore. But he was never as good as Bryant. People can talk all this "If he had Kobe's teammates" stuff, but when he had better teammates and actually used them (in Houston, before he had a bunch of injuries), he couldn't put up the same scoring numbers...and his shooting percentages were lower than Kobe's.

Yes, it was due to bad teammates. And in '03, T-Mac and Kobe had similar ability as far as taking over games. T-Mac was always an excellent passer, and he showed it every year. He had to shoot more in Orlando, just as Kobe did in '05-'07 and Wade did in '09 because of their rosters.

He had one year in Houston(2005) with his prime scoring and athletic ability, or close to it, and he had a phenomenal year. He deferred the first month, but after that, he was the best SG/SF in the league. He took on more of a playmaking role that season, and playing in Van Gundy's offense didn't help his individual numbers. Either way, he still didn't play as well as 2003 when he was hot pretty much the entire year, but 2005 has nothing to do with his 2003 season.

Kobe was eventually better than T-Mac, but from '02-'05, they were neck and neck. It was one of the most popular debates, and a great match up whenever they played.

[Whoah10115]

Yes, it was due to bad teammates. And in '03, T-Mac and Kobe had similar ability as far as taking over games. T-Mac was always an excellent passer, and he showed it every year. He had to shoot more in Orlando, just as Kobe did in '05-'07 and Wade did in '09 because of their rosters.

He had one year in Houston(2005) with his prime scoring and athletic ability, or close to it, and he had a phenomenal year. He deferred the first month, but after that, he was the best SG/SF in the league. He took on more of a playmaking role that season, and playing in Van Gundy's offense didn't help his individual numbers. Either way, he still didn't play as well as 2003 when he was hot pretty much the entire year, but 2005 has nothing to do with his 2003 season.

Kobe was eventually better than T-Mac, but from '02-'05, they were neck and neck. It was one of the most popular debates, and a great match up whenever they played.



I disagree 150%.


I saw McGrady as a true individual player. His team wasn't good, but that team wasn't that different the year before he got there. I'm not gonna compare this to Kobe's 05/06 and 06/07 teams, as that's not the discussion. But I don't think it was about teammates. Unless we're saying that better teammates would have inspired McGrady to play a little differently...but that would be a different argument. For this argument, I don't think your point holds true.


I agree on 04/05 and I said that. He even played the 3 on that team. He was terrific and showed the all-around game. That's the most I've enjoyed watching him play.


Obviously, it was never fair to rank McGrady ahead of Bryant. Bryant was on a great team that could win titles and McGrady was not (would have been very interesting to see how he and Grant would have played together). Due to that, Bryant got to go far in the playoffs and, outside of the 00 Finals, played great in every round of playoffs during that 3peat. Can't hold it against T-Mac that he didn't accomplish what Kobe did, but it's also unfair to Kobe to not base a ranking on what he did do (I know that you don't argue that, just making the general point). I recognize that but I'm not taking that into consideration when evaluating them, all things being equal.


If we're looking at skills, I don't think McGrady was ever a better ball-handler than Kobe. He might have been a better pure passer, but I think it's close and I think Bryant was smarter. McGrady probably had the better vision, had length and knew how to use it. He was also the better rebounder. Kobe was the better playmaker and he was more devastating against opposing defenses. It's something I see a lot of in Westbrook's game. Bryant was easily the better shooter and had higher basketball IQ. McGrady had the talent to be a very good defender, but even in talent he wasn't as good as Bryant. And Bryant actually was a great defender. McGrady was no better than average.


Lastly, Kobe is a chucker and a ballhog, and he's petulant. More so than McGrady, to be honest. But Kobe played his game within the context of a 5v5. McGrady did not. And I think that separates them more than anything. Kobe was just a better basketball player than McGrady.

[Whoah10115]

I told you this before, but playing with Yao and a bunch of nonexistent role players who frequently disappeared is a lot different than playing with Shaq.

Yao scored a lot by taking jumpers from the top of the key just inside the three-point line. The way he played a lot of his offense didn't open up the floor for a perimeter player the way Shaq did by pounding down low and drawing a lot of attention.



I get this and I take it into consideration. I even agree with some of it, but just not overall.